WEBVTT 00:03.962 --> 00:06.083 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a gay up name for a gay up podcast. 00:07.123 --> 00:07.963 [SPEAKER_00]: Jump scare. 00:08.163 --> 00:13.125 [SPEAKER_00]: It's Zach Staff for looking at absolutely Gorgene on that's a gay as podcast. 00:13.225 --> 00:21.587 [SPEAKER_00]: Zach, I should have known from someone like you who is podcast royalty, you would come here looking gorgeously lit, sounded, and dress said. 00:22.560 --> 00:39.422 [SPEAKER_01]: I, wow Eric, that is so sweet of you to say it probably comes from my like prior morning television hosting OCD that I, if you're asking me to be on camera for you and you have a lot of gay men watching, I should come prepared, you know, so you're afraid of gay men's judgment. 00:40.549 --> 00:44.473 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, aren't we all it seems you know it's a good point. 00:44.513 --> 00:54.423 [SPEAKER_00]: We'll talk about the shaping of gay men's judgment and how we sort of now move through the world But I think it's important for people who maybe don't know that the why are you such podcast royalty? 00:54.563 --> 00:58.627 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's unpack Zack's effort hosts one of the co-hosts of vibe check 00:59.147 --> 01:02.450 [SPEAKER_00]: which the New York Times and Vogue are very obsessed with. 01:02.810 --> 01:10.617 [SPEAKER_00]: You are also a Tony award winner one for producing a strange loop, a show I've seen multiple times. 01:10.977 --> 01:13.740 [SPEAKER_00]: You were also the first black editor in chief of the advocate. 01:13.760 --> 01:19.264 [SPEAKER_00]: You served as a chief content office stress of a company that we've heard called Grindr. 01:19.665 --> 01:21.486 [SPEAKER_00]: You've worked at the Guardian. 01:21.506 --> 01:25.790 [SPEAKER_00]: You've hosted so many crazy cool events will unpack, you've written two books. 01:26.350 --> 01:27.972 [SPEAKER_00]: Zach, are you okay? 01:28.213 --> 01:32.258 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you feel like you have to achieve so much to fill a hole in your heart? 01:32.878 --> 01:34.340 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's make up a nicer question. 01:34.500 --> 01:36.343 [SPEAKER_00]: What's bringing you pleasure today outside of work? 01:36.802 --> 01:37.782 [SPEAKER_01]: No, Eric, let's go backwards. 01:38.443 --> 01:48.568 [SPEAKER_01]: That version of the question you gave is the one I've been searching for my whole life because it's a joke that I make to people in private and you're the first person to ever say to my face, so thank you. 01:48.808 --> 01:50.909 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's a context to that. 01:50.929 --> 02:00.673 [SPEAKER_01]: In 2015, when I was at the Guardian, I was a journalist, I was a crime reporter, I was doing a lot of big news stories. 02:00.793 --> 02:01.834 [SPEAKER_01]: Now I felt old then. 02:02.054 --> 02:03.915 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, when you're gay at 25, you're like, I'm old. 02:03.935 --> 02:04.996 [SPEAKER_01]: And now I'm 36. 02:05.036 --> 02:06.738 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, God, I was a child. 02:06.778 --> 02:07.799 [SPEAKER_01]: But what are you talking about? 02:08.759 --> 02:11.922 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's back then, I was really obsessed. 02:12.082 --> 02:14.884 [SPEAKER_01]: And then with my career in making sure I was excelling. 02:15.184 --> 02:20.529 [SPEAKER_01]: And I got interviewed by a student at Northwestern University and undergrad student in journalism school. 02:20.869 --> 02:23.411 [SPEAKER_01]: And she said to me, how did you do all this stuff? 02:23.451 --> 02:24.512 [SPEAKER_01]: You're only 25. 02:24.552 --> 02:27.154 [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, honey, you should be asking me, what am I running from? 02:27.674 --> 02:50.987 [SPEAKER_00]: and she did not find that funny and I think about it all the time because that is when every scene ambitious gay that's accomplished things you must ask what are they running from so Eric you're a fabulous journalist already you need to know that as one maybe fabulous journalist to the next the second you said 36 I had a look of horror upon my face because I am 36 and my gay trauma immediately said he's done way more than me 02:51.627 --> 02:54.949 [SPEAKER_00]: See that wasn't a part of your intent. 02:55.309 --> 03:20.585 [SPEAKER_01]: That is not why I asked the question and yet here I am run run run run in the way from my own ship, but no air that's so good that you're aware of that moment because a lot of us Have lost a lot of sleep and into a lot of therapy because we don't realize that sometimes when someone's talking about themselves We make it about ourselves And we're having this fight in our head with that person and that person is no idea what you're going through cuz they're talking about themselves So yeah, it's a great 03:21.045 --> 03:32.812 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, there's so much unpack already because we are going to be going on to the sub-stack side and I want to talk about once we get there maybe about people or types of people that you have found yourself comparing yourself to or feel that way. 03:32.832 --> 03:41.177 [SPEAKER_00]: Because I think it's very like human to hear about accomplished people who also don't feel like they're enough and I you know, I think you and I both. 03:41.938 --> 03:43.700 [SPEAKER_00]: have a lot to unpack when it comes to that. 03:43.720 --> 03:47.864 [SPEAKER_00]: But let's actually get into it because there is a pretty delicious list of questions here. 03:47.924 --> 03:52.570 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to get into straight away the gay ass podcast question, which is Zach Stafford. 03:53.090 --> 03:53.851 [SPEAKER_01]: Who's fault? 03:54.091 --> 03:55.593 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it that you're gay? 03:55.653 --> 03:56.494 [SPEAKER_01]: Who do we blame? 03:58.075 --> 03:59.656 [SPEAKER_01]: I know exactly who's fault it is. 03:59.916 --> 04:01.777 [SPEAKER_01]: It is Jack from Will and Grace. 04:02.037 --> 04:03.758 [SPEAKER_01]: So Sean Hayes. 04:03.938 --> 04:04.958 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right. 04:04.998 --> 04:05.639 [SPEAKER_01]: Sean Hayes. 04:06.019 --> 04:07.099 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 04:07.219 --> 04:08.180 [SPEAKER_01]: Who I've never met before? 04:08.380 --> 04:09.581 [SPEAKER_01]: And I can't wait to meet him. 04:09.601 --> 04:11.942 [SPEAKER_01]: So I could say you're the reason why I'm a faggot. 04:12.582 --> 04:14.023 [SPEAKER_01]: And he'll probably say, Grow. 04:15.421 --> 04:16.722 [SPEAKER_01]: talked to the queen down there. 04:16.902 --> 04:30.049 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm the reason for many people, but for me, when I was who in fifth grade, I was watching Millengrace, you know, my parents let me, which is radical for some southern people who were kind of homophobic at the time, my dad specifically. 04:30.510 --> 04:31.030 [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, 04:32.631 --> 04:38.433 [SPEAKER_01]: Jack McFarlane would do his just Jack thing, you know, just Jack 2000, etc. 04:38.753 --> 04:41.794 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was again 10, so Jack Rimes was Zack. 04:42.234 --> 04:48.557 [SPEAKER_01]: He was a gay, Fimi Boy, I was a gay, Fimi Boy, and he was the one representation I had. 04:48.597 --> 04:52.539 [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, every Thursday I would learn new lines and I would take them to school and I would recite them. 04:52.639 --> 04:55.740 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why I got called gay the first time because I was reciting Jack. 04:56.160 --> 05:16.961 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, if there's any reason to call a kid gay, it's for quoting Jack McFarland in the television program William and Grace Salina I have to say that it's such a good answer because that is my comfort show I have had a few low moments in my life where I can turn to the memory of me turning on Will and Grace and while this sounds like a First world problem. 05:17.401 --> 05:18.943 [SPEAKER_00]: I was studying abroad at Paris 05:19.503 --> 05:23.487 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was super homesick and like I had some crazy stomach bugs. 05:23.507 --> 05:25.088 [SPEAKER_00]: So I was sick for like two weeks. 05:25.188 --> 05:26.870 [SPEAKER_00]: And all it was watch Will and Grace. 05:26.950 --> 05:29.673 [SPEAKER_00]: And it truly, it's such a comfort show now. 05:29.813 --> 05:33.857 [SPEAKER_00]: I do think if you were to watch it now, does it quote unquote hold up? 05:33.877 --> 05:37.280 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think that would be anything you would feel like that about when watching it now? 05:37.996 --> 05:38.937 [SPEAKER_01]: I definitely feel bad. 05:39.277 --> 05:45.663 [SPEAKER_01]: Now as I watch it, but I'm in a new era of my life where I love the problematic messiness of my past. 05:45.683 --> 05:46.264 [SPEAKER_01]: I would do that. 05:46.944 --> 05:47.325 [SPEAKER_01]: You get it. 05:47.345 --> 05:53.851 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I went through this phase of I watched it as a kid loved it wanted to be Karen wanted to be Jack. 05:54.451 --> 05:59.233 [SPEAKER_01]: love that they glamourized eating disorders, love that they were, they had no black friends until they needed to have sex with a black person. 05:59.253 --> 06:00.514 [SPEAKER_01]: Like it was like I love a law. 06:00.834 --> 06:02.034 [SPEAKER_01]: It was just like so great. 06:02.054 --> 06:04.455 [SPEAKER_01]: They lived in an apartment that cost so much fabulous. 06:04.736 --> 06:14.500 [SPEAKER_01]: Then I went to undergrad and I studied women's in gender studies because I am gay and I learned intersectionality and feminism and queer theory. 06:14.740 --> 06:16.401 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I turned it on when summer. 06:16.481 --> 06:18.341 [SPEAKER_01]: And my friend Tory actually reminded me of this. 06:18.361 --> 06:20.883 [SPEAKER_01]: It was like a summer between sophomore junior year. 06:21.063 --> 06:21.643 [SPEAKER_01]: I went home. 06:22.223 --> 06:28.411 [SPEAKER_01]: I rewatched it for the first time ever, and I was now like a learned feminist, and I was so upset. 06:28.891 --> 06:33.837 [SPEAKER_01]: I had no idea how problematic it was until I had that lens, so then I was ashamed. 06:34.338 --> 06:39.684 [SPEAKER_01]: But like all gay men, I got overcame my shame, and now I accept it, and I use it as my superpower, and I love it. 06:40.084 --> 06:41.386 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's beautifully said. 06:41.446 --> 06:51.939 [SPEAKER_00]: I also think there's something to dive into when it comes to like embracing the problematic parts of our past, like because it everything is a sign of its time, right? 06:51.999 --> 06:54.603 [SPEAKER_00]: Like we can't judge things with today's eyes. 06:55.023 --> 06:57.527 [SPEAKER_00]: That being said, I have some shame. 06:58.187 --> 07:16.909 [SPEAKER_00]: about my horniness towards Will and the reason why there's shame there is because I know why I felt it is because he was more mask presenting it because yes, I saw some chest hair and I don't know he to me was like a responsible like he'd sort of like what's the word when you're like in a part of society he's like 07:19.000 --> 07:20.422 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I don't talk about what is the word. 07:20.722 --> 07:26.947 [SPEAKER_00]: He's not respectable, but he's, um, he's I know, pursued into, and someone listening is screaming in there. 07:26.967 --> 07:28.008 [SPEAKER_00]: He's on such a right now. 07:28.048 --> 07:31.211 [SPEAKER_00]: But like, um, I just think that, uh, I, 07:32.250 --> 07:38.434 [SPEAKER_00]: who can still thirst over will, who, by the way, the fact that Eric McCormick is a straight man, I think hats off. 07:38.634 --> 07:39.635 [SPEAKER_00]: I never watching it. 07:39.735 --> 07:42.217 [SPEAKER_01]: I never had that man before. 07:43.338 --> 07:43.638 [SPEAKER_00]: Have you? 07:43.938 --> 07:46.220 [SPEAKER_01]: I got to set it a dinner with him recently. 07:46.540 --> 07:47.500 [SPEAKER_01]: We didn't get to talk very much. 07:48.261 --> 07:49.021 [SPEAKER_01]: He is so gay. 07:49.262 --> 07:50.102 [SPEAKER_01]: The key is gay. 07:50.142 --> 07:52.023 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think like every straight man that plays gay. 07:52.944 --> 08:08.411 [SPEAKER_01]: Is kind of gay like I don't think that's I don't think trade people for the exists period so I think this is like a flaw This is bullshit that he's like, oh, I'm straight and that's like the gimmick is like I'm straight playing gays like no girl Just because you have his like dick this shit doesn't mean you're straight like that's different How to go or please speaking. 08:08.451 --> 08:15.354 [SPEAKER_00]: There are some straight men who I think we can say our gay Eric McCormick is one Paul no few downs has been named many a time 08:16.014 --> 08:17.094 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, but I don't know. 08:17.114 --> 08:24.316 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe maybe what we perceive as gain straight men is just a straight man who like shows people respect and maybe which is a hip every now and again. 08:24.956 --> 08:27.636 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he was doing more of the switching hips at the steering. 08:27.656 --> 08:35.898 [SPEAKER_01]: He was really taking he I remember they they named all the celebrities at this dinner was like a tennis event and he he jumped up and threw his his napkin and he said hello. 08:36.318 --> 08:44.540 [SPEAKER_01]: It was the most dramatic most gay thing and I remember I think it was Naomi Osaka the tennis player just kind of like glared at him and I thought haha. 08:44.680 --> 08:47.121 [SPEAKER_01]: She humble for big as like no, he's just being too much. 08:47.221 --> 08:54.883 [SPEAKER_00]: It just said that there's a fine line between do you hate gay people or just do just hate someone who's taking up too much space and throwing napkins? 08:55.464 --> 08:58.625 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, no, that's again, a lot of shame can come into like amateur. 08:58.645 --> 09:02.726 [SPEAKER_00]: I hate myself, or I just like, one, Dara, God forbid I want to pause. 09:03.286 --> 09:07.068 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, there is something though that we're getting into, which is a theatricality tape at all. 09:07.528 --> 09:11.109 [SPEAKER_00]: As somebody who has now become a Tony winning producer, 09:11.789 --> 09:17.233 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, it's a part of my job as a gay journalist to ask if you did high school theater. 09:17.593 --> 09:18.894 [SPEAKER_00]: You said you grew up in the south. 09:19.275 --> 09:21.336 [SPEAKER_00]: You were this funny little boy. 09:21.516 --> 09:24.358 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to presume you at least one to two audition. 09:25.159 --> 09:26.560 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I did more than one. 09:26.680 --> 09:27.421 [SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't theater. 09:27.681 --> 09:28.441 [SPEAKER_01]: I was a theater kid. 09:28.882 --> 09:29.482 [SPEAKER_00]: And it was me. 09:29.882 --> 09:30.123 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 09:30.163 --> 09:30.963 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's go there. 09:31.303 --> 09:36.687 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, so my first piece of theater I did was the a work you made 09:40.490 --> 09:41.351 [SPEAKER_01]: Tell me what you play. 09:42.052 --> 09:47.558 [SPEAKER_01]: I played the news boys both young and old because I was the only black person. 09:47.598 --> 09:51.362 [SPEAKER_01]: So I could play all ages, you know, it's like they just put me in a while. 09:51.402 --> 09:56.048 [SPEAKER_00]: I guess what is it blocked on crack and also blocked don't Let's see. 09:56.128 --> 10:00.212 [SPEAKER_00]: I have no, I'm just we're like going to make up the black and black and black and black. 10:00.990 --> 10:02.011 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't have a box. 10:02.211 --> 10:02.671 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. 10:02.691 --> 10:03.952 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm black, I don't have a box. 10:03.972 --> 10:05.233 [SPEAKER_00]: Say the black don't have a box. 10:05.253 --> 10:06.093 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not gonna have a box. 10:06.374 --> 10:07.094 [SPEAKER_01]: Taring no boxes. 10:07.274 --> 10:09.396 [SPEAKER_01]: Fuck D-E-N-I, you know. 10:09.736 --> 10:20.323 [SPEAKER_01]: But I was in Gypsy, so I played the newsboys both young and old, and I played the journalist at the end, that people know as like the gay guy that comes in when she's famous and is asking her questions and her dressing room. 10:20.363 --> 10:26.567 [SPEAKER_01]: So I played, you know, both economically blackish characters and gay characters in the show. 10:27.408 --> 10:29.729 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I went on to play Judge Danforth 10:31.391 --> 10:37.737 [SPEAKER_01]: I was in South Pacific, and I did something else, but yeah, I did a bunch of different places in South Pacific. 10:38.118 --> 10:39.219 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I played a soldier. 10:39.259 --> 10:39.960 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember that show. 10:39.980 --> 10:45.525 [SPEAKER_01]: I kind of blacked out back then, because I think I was like, really horny into the idea of being in the Navy or whatever. 10:45.625 --> 10:49.790 [SPEAKER_01]: So I just kind of like, that's all I remember is like wearing the outfit and being really into the outfit. 10:50.270 --> 10:56.420 [SPEAKER_00]: Which, again, we can't judge things with today's eyes and the fact that you may be sort of like the idea of war was fun. 10:57.782 --> 11:02.990 [SPEAKER_00]: No, can we unpack for a second the fact that you were doing these shows at your school? 11:03.050 --> 11:04.592 [SPEAKER_00]: Were these all high school shows? 11:05.526 --> 11:05.826 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah. 11:06.127 --> 11:10.070 [SPEAKER_00]: And my who are she programming this doing a great job. 11:10.330 --> 11:13.252 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, and I'm from Summer County, Tennessee. 11:13.993 --> 11:15.814 [SPEAKER_01]: They did not have a strong arts program. 11:15.854 --> 11:19.537 [SPEAKER_01]: This woman and Renee Redler, which is such a funny name. 11:19.717 --> 11:23.260 [SPEAKER_01]: Renee Redler was our drama school teacher. 11:23.580 --> 11:29.705 [SPEAKER_01]: She clearly had a crush on the senior who played the leads of everything who's older than me, which now I think they actually 11:32.107 --> 11:32.647 [SPEAKER_01]: Doc Gross. 11:32.868 --> 11:33.748 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, allegedly. 11:33.808 --> 11:34.609 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's say allegedly. 11:34.629 --> 11:39.172 [SPEAKER_01]: So dating, but my memory from this years ago, but if my memory serves me, I think they started dating afterwards. 11:39.192 --> 11:50.539 [SPEAKER_01]: But she was kind of this like, she wasn't queer herself, but she's that woman you meet in small towns that never got out, had dreams of going to New York, had dreams of being theater, was a little like, 11:51.179 --> 12:14.217 [SPEAKER_01]: Sex Forward was always down to smoke a cigarette, maybe hook up with somebody and I grew up in a very religious space So she was navigating a lot and how she pushed back on the conservatism of my my city and my town was by programming very radical works like the crucible Maybe or gypsy which is about strippers and I'm very thankful for her because I love gypsy 12:14.477 --> 12:32.156 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, there's things that two things can be true about someone which is a one that they can maybe have problematic relationships with the high school seniors that they're teaching and to they can be straight people who also fully get it and the reason why I say that is because I was just talking to these. 12:33.257 --> 12:34.318 [SPEAKER_00]: two queens yesterday. 12:34.338 --> 12:36.840 [SPEAKER_00]: I just got to shoot this fun show with twin sisters. 12:36.920 --> 12:44.285 [SPEAKER_00]: One of the sisters is straight and one is gay, but we were saying that the straight twin is still giving gay and the reason why I felt that is because she 12:45.503 --> 12:46.904 [SPEAKER_00]: had felt other growing up. 12:46.924 --> 12:56.350 [SPEAKER_00]: She was very much sort of like, you know, a spooky girl and currently she's giving like a beautiful, alt hair cut, a stunning short bang. 12:56.731 --> 13:07.158 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that this types of straight people we most connect with are the ones who at one point felt like they were in some minority or some other category. 13:07.518 --> 13:09.980 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to go on a limb and say a lot of the 13:12.041 --> 13:16.305 [SPEAKER_00]: probably listen to this because they also can identify with that otherness. 13:16.325 --> 13:34.282 [SPEAKER_00]: So I shout out the high school theater teachers, the straight people who are a little weird different off quote unquote because it that's I think what makes a straight person um able to be cool with queer people and people who are different is because they partly understand it. 13:34.862 --> 13:37.003 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I cannot agree anymore. 13:37.663 --> 13:45.187 [SPEAKER_01]: I very drawn to people who feel connected to me through otherness and they're aware that their otherness isn't so much my otherness. 13:45.207 --> 13:47.148 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm a black mixed kid from a South gay. 13:47.168 --> 13:52.450 [SPEAKER_01]: I always felt like I was the feminist writer to to quote my gender studies. 13:52.950 --> 13:57.752 [SPEAKER_01]: Her name is Gloria and I'll do a show wrote this book called La Frontera or Borderlands. 13:57.872 --> 14:02.273 [SPEAKER_01]: She talks about folks like me and you and others that we live on the Borderlands. 14:02.293 --> 14:06.414 [SPEAKER_01]: And we sit on this fence and we get to choose speaking specifically about indigenous queer people. 14:06.454 --> 14:10.416 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's any of us that kind of hold multitudes of oppression can sit there. 14:10.436 --> 14:16.798 [SPEAKER_01]: That sense and see from different perspectives how the world is working against us and for us and maybe not even thinking of us. 14:17.078 --> 14:20.179 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think every community has that border walker. 14:21.019 --> 14:28.564 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's really important not to confuse that my oppression is exactly your oppression, but we can like be in community together, and that's where we're stronger. 14:28.584 --> 14:30.385 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I think there are queer straight people. 14:30.505 --> 14:33.647 [SPEAKER_01]: I think again, straight people as an ideal does not exist. 14:34.228 --> 14:36.689 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not a real thing queer people definitely exist my God. 14:37.550 --> 14:45.395 [SPEAKER_00]: My God, do they I mean, well, so here's then a great question that's a segue is Jennifer Hudson is she a gay straight person. 14:46.522 --> 14:47.583 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I love this. 14:47.623 --> 14:48.905 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my god, Erica, I'm obsessed with you. 14:49.325 --> 14:51.347 [SPEAKER_01]: No one asks questions like this to me and I love it. 14:52.708 --> 14:54.630 [SPEAKER_01]: Is she a gay straight person? 14:54.990 --> 14:56.512 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to answer this authentically. 14:56.532 --> 14:58.934 [SPEAKER_01]: We're honestly rather. 15:00.255 --> 15:01.976 [SPEAKER_01]: She's kind of she's like. 15:02.737 --> 15:04.458 [SPEAKER_01]: She's been through a lot, you know, Jennifer Hudson. 15:04.558 --> 15:08.019 [SPEAKER_01]: I got to know through this show. 15:08.400 --> 15:09.400 [SPEAKER_01]: She was a producer on the show. 15:09.420 --> 15:10.380 [SPEAKER_01]: It's how she got it. 15:11.081 --> 15:11.801 [SPEAKER_01]: She's fabulous. 15:11.821 --> 15:14.462 [SPEAKER_01]: She showed up for a strange upcast the show. 15:14.602 --> 15:17.143 [SPEAKER_01]: And she showed up in the most beautiful ways as a producer. 15:17.344 --> 15:20.265 [SPEAKER_01]: And then we did some stuff on her show the Jennifer Hudson show. 15:20.285 --> 15:20.825 [SPEAKER_01]: She launched it. 15:20.965 --> 15:21.465 [SPEAKER_01]: Five check. 15:21.585 --> 15:22.686 [SPEAKER_01]: My podcast was the first. 15:23.086 --> 15:46.498 [SPEAKER_01]: one of the first guests early on guests there so we would do segments with her and she loves the gaze and she's from the south side of Chicago she's you know lost family to gun violence and then through so much as you know being this American idol loser that now had to become a winner and she and I think that actually makes her queer because no one thought she would get this far and she did and now she is so proud of it and her 15:50.160 --> 15:51.903 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, you think you're actually right. 15:51.923 --> 15:57.472 [SPEAKER_00]: I began with no and now I'm at a yes case show there was very really it was very a beautiful mind to see work through that. 15:57.492 --> 15:59.234 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. 15:59.415 --> 16:01.438 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that heard deveness. 16:02.454 --> 16:23.455 [SPEAKER_00]: gives me chills to think of because I think I've only seen her live once and it was when she was in a color purple on Broadway and I counted as one of the best things I've ever seen on stage and the revote of course like sort of transcended the like barrier of light and sound because of 16:24.098 --> 16:25.059 [SPEAKER_00]: how amazing she was. 16:25.140 --> 16:29.265 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think Jennifer Hudson's journey to your point is so wild. 16:29.285 --> 16:30.887 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I remember we're the same age. 16:30.907 --> 16:35.613 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't you remember American idol when she in, uh, all like, wasn't it like Malaysia? 16:35.633 --> 16:38.617 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, it was like, Asia and then Latoya us. 16:39.258 --> 16:55.460 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe yeah, it was like three black women going head to head and they yeah, and it was first of all just kind of culturally speaking it was really at a time when all of us were watching the same thing going into school the next day and unpacking who went home on American Idol, but 16:55.980 --> 17:03.103 [SPEAKER_00]: to see Jennifer Hudson's journey to have egot head to be a performer and a talk show host and a producer. 17:03.243 --> 17:12.828 [SPEAKER_00]: It's, it's very, very cool to see and I just hope I get to see her perform live again because the voice, it is a voice. 17:13.568 --> 17:16.670 [SPEAKER_01]: It and she's more comfortable singing than anything else. 17:16.810 --> 17:23.713 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, she's got much better at hosting that show, but in the beginning, you can tell us you want to do was break out and saw it. 17:23.793 --> 17:24.394 [SPEAKER_01]: I just want to sing. 17:24.414 --> 17:27.415 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have you heard this instrument? 17:27.455 --> 17:31.997 [SPEAKER_00]: People sort of playfully drag Jennifer Hudson in her interviews. 17:33.178 --> 17:41.748 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I will say, because this is on camera, and I don't care, I can be USC, when the first time was the second time was on her show, you know, you probably feel this too. 17:41.768 --> 17:52.561 [SPEAKER_01]: When you host things, you naturally begin hosting, in conversation, it should be an anchoring, or middle tapling, as I say, I think in one of the shows, whoever said that, but, um, 17:53.182 --> 17:56.124 [SPEAKER_01]: is she was very early on in hosting television. 17:56.224 --> 17:57.945 [SPEAKER_01]: And hosting television was really hard. 17:58.085 --> 18:01.427 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I did it for a little bit of my life, and I went through so much training. 18:01.447 --> 18:05.669 [SPEAKER_01]: And when I was hosting morning television, they had me Thursday afternoon. 18:05.689 --> 18:06.950 [SPEAKER_01]: I was with coaches. 18:07.150 --> 18:12.473 [SPEAKER_01]: And what they don't tell you is that you get coaches that make you look at your tape and they critique you while you're watching it. 18:12.674 --> 18:13.174 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like... 18:13.694 --> 18:17.718 [SPEAKER_01]: really worse than water, tortured in the head, but they're waterboarding. 18:18.038 --> 18:21.582 [SPEAKER_01]: But um, so she's going through that herself, but it takes a while to get comfortable. 18:21.602 --> 18:22.382 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a live audience. 18:22.422 --> 18:22.763 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a lot. 18:23.123 --> 18:26.386 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we were at break and I brought up her crystal. 18:26.426 --> 18:27.247 [SPEAKER_01]: She brought this at the day. 18:27.307 --> 18:28.008 [SPEAKER_01]: She loves crystal. 18:28.048 --> 18:29.789 [SPEAKER_01]: She collects them very woo, woo girl. 18:30.370 --> 18:35.174 [SPEAKER_01]: And as we came back from break, I think on the tape if you watch this one segment, she won't stop talking about her rocks. 18:35.895 --> 18:47.199 [SPEAKER_01]: and you know, every all the producers are being like teleprompter talk questions like they bring up cue cards or like gross like focus and she's just like so my rocks. 18:47.359 --> 18:52.341 [SPEAKER_01]: That was like I'm so glad this is a this is not live like we are taping life to tape. 18:52.982 --> 18:58.324 [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, she she's got she's found her way, but I see this this means I'm like, it was it's tough. 18:58.364 --> 18:58.924 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a tough job. 18:59.324 --> 19:03.986 [SPEAKER_00]: People, a lot of people watching, I think it's easier to do than it actually is. 19:04.086 --> 19:11.968 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, not to bring this up, but to bring up like the Jake Shane of it all with the vanity fair red carpet and how much shit he got. 19:12.228 --> 19:28.694 [SPEAKER_00]: I just think that like it is a skill that people assume anyone can do if you're like a funny engaging person, but it ain't I mean, it's it's taking a long time to feel like really comfortable and like I, I just, yeah, I shout out I shout out the girl's idea. 19:29.254 --> 19:40.952 [SPEAKER_01]: I think Eric, because I've been following your show for a little bit now, and whenever I especially your clips and you have these really funny clips in an ability to kind of jump into a joke, people probably think, oh, because he's gay, he can just do that naturally. 19:41.473 --> 19:44.898 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're probably they can grow, you know how much training this has taken, how much I think. 19:45.298 --> 19:52.480 [SPEAKER_01]: thinking and sitting my room and what sucks about those moments you are vulnerable and trying to make that joke in real time is a lot of us go home and spiral. 19:52.620 --> 19:55.420 [SPEAKER_01]: You have like what Bernabreound calls this is a vulnerability hangover. 19:55.720 --> 19:59.561 [SPEAKER_01]: So like sure we you at home are laughing at it, but I don't know that. 19:59.761 --> 20:04.202 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm at home spinning out that I just made like this week on my show I made a joke about immigration beef. 20:04.582 --> 20:08.683 [SPEAKER_01]: I was talking about how Trump trying to bring in all this beef from Argentina and he wants all this immigration beef. 20:09.283 --> 20:10.443 [SPEAKER_01]: I had to talk to my partner about that. 20:10.463 --> 20:11.944 [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, I'm going to get canceled. 20:12.064 --> 20:12.964 [SPEAKER_01]: Why did I say that? 20:13.024 --> 20:14.205 [SPEAKER_01]: And then you will feel like people. 20:14.245 --> 20:18.246 [SPEAKER_00]: You felt like Kelly Osborn going, who's going to clean your toilets, Mr Trump. 20:18.746 --> 20:21.447 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, well, it's in a sense that. 20:22.147 --> 20:27.529 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, the vulnerable, the vulnerability hangover is so real, the twins thing that I was just talking about. 20:27.669 --> 20:29.130 [SPEAKER_00]: It's, it's, it's, it's 20:29.970 --> 20:32.772 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think I'm getting troubled, but whatever. 20:33.232 --> 20:35.113 [SPEAKER_00]: I shot this like chat show. 20:36.754 --> 20:39.895 [SPEAKER_00]: And I, we smoked weed during the chat show. 20:39.915 --> 20:41.096 [SPEAKER_00]: That was the bit of the show. 20:41.216 --> 20:44.117 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I of course was like, well, I'm already a chatty, Kathy. 20:44.558 --> 20:44.898 [SPEAKER_00]: Give me a 20:45.878 --> 21:09.908 [SPEAKER_00]: into a hybrid and sweetie, we're off to the race says, but I do the thing, I felt really good about it during it right after and then right as like a home, I started to be like, what the hell did I say and I not only going to get canceled, but did I like burn bridges and it's just I don't know it's there's just something about I think any creative person, you know, we have these desires to put her shit out there, but then it's also debilitatingly devastating. 21:10.128 --> 21:14.271 [SPEAKER_00]: When you have to actually deal with the fact that it is your face, your voice, your thoughts. 21:14.311 --> 21:17.473 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's why I think it's, um, we're in an exciting time. 21:17.493 --> 21:26.820 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to produce our own shit in many ways or like you, uh, doing vibe check with serious and having this like actual, you know, funding and producing behind it. 21:27.180 --> 21:31.783 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just no matter how you cut it, it's, it's very scary to push it out there. 21:31.803 --> 21:34.545 [SPEAKER_00]: But I very much receive what you're saying and I appreciate you. 21:34.625 --> 21:36.487 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's just very cool to, um, 21:37.027 --> 21:41.571 [SPEAKER_00]: to be able to talk to someone like you who really has lived so many of my gauge dreams. 21:42.391 --> 21:48.616 [SPEAKER_00]: Another one of my gauge dreams you've done is a live interview with Heated Rivalry author Rachel Reed. 21:49.217 --> 21:59.085 [SPEAKER_00]: Now I just, before we get into any horny questions on the Sunstack side, let's have a toe to toe about Heated Rivalry. 21:59.285 --> 21:59.465 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 21:59.485 --> 22:02.467 [SPEAKER_00]: Were you one of the obsessed girls when it came out where you was 22:06.078 --> 22:13.440 [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm, the beginning I was a pretty, I, when I start watching something, I consume it pretty fast. 22:13.640 --> 22:14.440 [SPEAKER_01]: So what's it begin? 22:14.480 --> 22:16.720 [SPEAKER_01]: I got to finish, like, ugh, gotta get there. 22:16.761 --> 22:21.522 [SPEAKER_01]: And so when I's turned it on, it was the holidays and my mother lives in Toronto. 22:21.662 --> 22:27.263 [SPEAKER_01]: So I was vaguely familiar with the show because there's big marketing Canada because I visit her under Crave. 22:27.783 --> 22:31.664 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I knew it was coming, but like all things from HBO, just because it's gay doesn't mean it will hit. 22:31.884 --> 22:33.844 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's a whole show called Proud on there from Poland. 22:34.085 --> 22:34.805 [SPEAKER_01]: That one's watching it. 22:36.245 --> 22:36.666 [SPEAKER_01]: It's cool. 22:36.706 --> 22:39.830 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like this really critically acclaimed joker proud from Poland. 22:40.070 --> 22:42.573 [SPEAKER_01]: That's actually so breathtaking and beautiful. 22:42.593 --> 22:43.894 [SPEAKER_01]: It's got a gay club kid. 22:44.195 --> 22:47.098 [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of you know how Jordan Firstman has his movie coming out club kid. 22:47.399 --> 22:48.840 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a TV show already out. 22:48.940 --> 22:50.042 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the exact same plot. 22:50.422 --> 22:51.163 [SPEAKER_01]: A club kid. 22:52.363 --> 22:54.385 [SPEAKER_01]: finds out he's the, he's going to raise a child. 22:54.525 --> 22:55.586 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not his biological child. 22:55.626 --> 22:56.566 [SPEAKER_01]: It's his sister's child. 22:56.887 --> 23:00.169 [SPEAKER_01]: And it tracks him raising this kid while dealing with being in the clubs. 23:00.810 --> 23:07.175 [SPEAKER_01]: Are you talking about Jordan first mentioning or that the HBO, which you're going to watch right now on HBO Max? 23:07.255 --> 23:11.158 [SPEAKER_00]: But I thought Jordan, are they, are you saying that Jordan first when has reheated Poland's not shows? 23:11.638 --> 23:14.679 [SPEAKER_01]: really has read and pull as much as I think they both went to production at the same time. 23:14.759 --> 23:15.540 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a brilliant idea. 23:15.560 --> 23:19.161 [SPEAKER_01]: I think we, it speaks to more of our, and like, no, she had to shorten the first one. 23:19.221 --> 23:19.962 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so impressed. 23:20.242 --> 23:20.922 [SPEAKER_01]: He did this movie. 23:20.962 --> 23:22.103 [SPEAKER_01]: It's sold for a lot of money. 23:22.903 --> 23:30.246 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think it speaks to the moment you and I are in, you know, in Jordan's a little older than us that I think yeah, I think he's more, he's older than us. 23:30.266 --> 23:30.886 [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to say that. 23:30.926 --> 23:31.447 [SPEAKER_01]: He's older than us. 23:31.467 --> 23:32.107 [SPEAKER_00]: He's older than us. 23:32.127 --> 23:35.688 [SPEAKER_00]: No, what we can say, whatever we want to say, but I think we're saying he's older than us. 23:35.989 --> 23:38.169 [SPEAKER_00]: I actually think he's not, but that's not 23:39.596 --> 23:42.880 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, oh, he's barely, we are the same age. 23:43.320 --> 23:44.281 [SPEAKER_01]: He is 35. 23:44.301 --> 23:46.303 [SPEAKER_01]: We're in the same age, doesn't it? 23:46.824 --> 23:52.890 [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, so anyway, we are of an age where we are considering, you know, a adulthood and raising children. 23:53.731 --> 23:58.016 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that that speaks to why in this other creators similar age to you. 23:58.036 --> 23:59.217 [SPEAKER_01]: So we're going through a 30s. 23:59.417 --> 23:59.918 [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to Ari. 24:00.678 --> 24:02.480 [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, but he'd arrive very, I didn't think it was going to take off. 24:02.580 --> 24:03.261 [SPEAKER_01]: I started watching it. 24:03.321 --> 24:04.883 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought, oh my god, who are these random actors? 24:05.463 --> 24:06.364 [SPEAKER_01]: They are really naked. 24:06.585 --> 24:07.345 [SPEAKER_01]: We're not seeing any dick. 24:07.726 --> 24:08.447 [SPEAKER_01]: What's going on? 24:09.368 --> 24:10.509 [SPEAKER_01]: And I finished it. 24:10.549 --> 24:11.730 [SPEAKER_01]: And we would talk about our vibe check. 24:11.750 --> 24:13.692 [SPEAKER_01]: And we kind of thought it was like insane that this was made. 24:13.832 --> 24:16.575 [SPEAKER_01]: Because it was so like horny and urning. 24:16.635 --> 24:19.418 [SPEAKER_01]: And the thing that I've talked to Rachel Reed about, which I guess we'll get into. 24:19.758 --> 24:20.599 [SPEAKER_01]: The creator is, 24:21.700 --> 24:27.482 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's fun to watch these men fall in love for 10 years, but no game man would ever like, you're in for that long. 24:27.502 --> 24:28.483 [SPEAKER_01]: Like that's not real. 24:28.523 --> 24:33.124 [SPEAKER_01]: So I immediately was like, these, this is written for women by women for women. 24:33.525 --> 24:37.126 [SPEAKER_01]: And we as gay men, it would be, it would be all this, but I still loved it. 24:37.526 --> 24:39.667 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, and then it took us a great point. 24:39.727 --> 24:46.810 [SPEAKER_00]: So then let's, okay, for a second then in terms of the duration of it all, you are correct that if it get too, get two guys like that. 24:46.830 --> 24:50.111 [SPEAKER_00]: Two horny guys like that are having so much sexual tension. 24:51.729 --> 24:55.876 [SPEAKER_00]: They keep coming across each other, realistically speaking, and these were actual gay guys. 24:55.996 --> 24:57.859 [SPEAKER_00]: How long do you think this affair would have lasted? 24:59.378 --> 25:05.079 [SPEAKER_01]: Ooh, I think what would have happened is, I think the affair could have happened on and off for years. 25:05.179 --> 25:12.280 [SPEAKER_01]: I do not think they would have been frozen, or at least Hudson Williams's character, Shane Hollander, would have been frozen in time waiting for him. 25:12.380 --> 25:22.942 [SPEAKER_01]: I think like I've gone through my own experience of like falling, like even my own partner, we were friends first and then years later we started dating and that didn't mean I sat there just waiting for him. 25:22.982 --> 25:25.883 [SPEAKER_01]: Like Shane Hollander is like not even sleeping with anybody else. 25:25.923 --> 25:27.503 [SPEAKER_01]: He's just sitting there for years and years and years. 25:28.743 --> 25:35.884 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, then, okay, I now am a girl that yes, heat of rivalry is important, but now I want to know about the BTS of the romance. 25:35.984 --> 25:41.926 [SPEAKER_00]: So your friends with wait don't tell me, because I've stalked you in. 25:42.146 --> 25:43.166 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god, you have stuck. 25:43.306 --> 25:43.866 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow. 25:43.926 --> 25:50.707 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, Craig is a cute E because I tried to stalk him on an Instagram and, you know, it's got hats hats off. 25:50.767 --> 25:52.528 [SPEAKER_00]: He's really done a good job of scrubbing. 25:53.068 --> 25:53.828 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so. 25:54.568 --> 26:15.115 [SPEAKER_00]: When you have first become friends with Craig and then maybe like you could have thought something might have happened, but then time went by between Were you the type of girl who was hopeless romantic going on bad date after bad date were you big old SLUT just sewing your oats kind of living your life or were you with secret third thing 26:17.397 --> 26:17.937 [SPEAKER_01]: I love your Eric. 26:17.998 --> 26:19.018 [SPEAKER_01]: You should come up with a check. 26:19.038 --> 26:21.600 [SPEAKER_01]: These are these are the questions that matter most. 26:22.501 --> 26:26.444 [SPEAKER_01]: My experience was I met Craig as friends at the gym. 26:26.464 --> 26:30.107 [SPEAKER_01]: So we joke even with Rachel read in the He arrived with people. 26:30.147 --> 26:31.047 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll say I went to my own. 26:31.067 --> 26:31.608 [SPEAKER_01]: He arrived right ahead. 26:31.628 --> 26:33.009 [SPEAKER_01]: I met him in a sports context. 26:34.329 --> 26:42.272 [SPEAKER_01]: He seemed I thought it was straight because it was a very gay gym in New York City and he wouldn't make eye contact with other people So I thought you're at a gay gym, you're a cute man. 26:42.292 --> 26:53.195 [SPEAKER_01]: I think he's so so hot But I'm like you're either cute attractive man and you won't even talk to gay men you must either be deeply closeted or not gay And so come to find out he's just socially anxious. 26:53.375 --> 26:54.775 [SPEAKER_01]: So you know, which is very gay 26:54.955 --> 26:56.275 [SPEAKER_01]: can honestly get to be socially anxious. 26:56.716 --> 27:07.119 [SPEAKER_01]: So we became friends and through our friendship as I was trying to lead us to at least having sex, I found out he was going through a great big breakup his first big breakup. 27:07.179 --> 27:11.901 [SPEAKER_01]: So he was what I was picking up on him was the emotional unavailability that comes from heartbreak. 27:12.201 --> 27:14.162 [SPEAKER_01]: So he wasn't very open to other people. 27:14.362 --> 27:16.864 [SPEAKER_01]: So I resigned myself to just friendships. 27:16.904 --> 27:21.247 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I guess I was a big SLUT in New York City and living my life. 27:22.068 --> 27:25.030 [SPEAKER_01]: And then the pandemic hit lockdown happens. 27:25.570 --> 27:28.112 [SPEAKER_01]: And he texts me asking if I go on a bike ride with him. 27:28.552 --> 27:49.995 [SPEAKER_01]: So that began my like heated rivalry yearning because we couldn't really touch so we were just like biking and me yearning and in the midst of it he said we're just friends and I was like oh I have to run back to LA then so I came back to LA and and did date and see other people and so but eventually we stopped uh it stopped just being friends and sort of being something else uh and so it switched but it took a while but I did it. 27:50.696 --> 28:08.348 [SPEAKER_01]: he did eventually and it was after our friendship had shifted you know we had after I was a two years of will they won't they we had so happen to be a province town the same trip and then you know what happens to happen to us Lee from south what a clumactic finish to like and what's the 28:09.028 --> 28:09.168 [SPEAKER_00]: Go on. 28:09.228 --> 28:20.834 [SPEAKER_01]: And what's great about it is why it even happened is a hurricane was hitting the east coast that year and hurricane Henry, and I would call it hurricane on re because I thought you should have a gay or name. 28:21.414 --> 28:23.775 [SPEAKER_01]: And all the trains out of Boston got canceled. 28:23.895 --> 28:28.037 [SPEAKER_01]: So he had to stay in Providence town in a friend of mine in a colleague of mine. 28:28.057 --> 28:34.821 [SPEAKER_01]: He demanded Craig stay at the house he'd rented and said, you should sleep in the bed with Zach, because you guys should be together. 28:34.901 --> 28:35.101 [SPEAKER_01]: And then. 28:35.381 --> 28:36.722 [SPEAKER_00]: We've been together ever since. 28:37.042 --> 28:37.923 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, our hurricane. 28:38.183 --> 28:39.944 [SPEAKER_00]: Climbing and helps. 28:40.004 --> 28:43.566 [SPEAKER_00]: So we think and climate change brought you together. 28:44.987 --> 28:49.190 [SPEAKER_00]: So the drama turgently speaking, I want to know how many years ago was province down. 28:50.279 --> 28:50.820 [SPEAKER_01]: five years ago. 28:51.080 --> 28:53.641 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and Mazel top. 28:53.721 --> 28:57.404 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, we'll be asking more deep driving things on subsequent mere minutes. 28:57.424 --> 28:59.105 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm just going to make that be a little easter egg. 28:59.405 --> 29:05.949 [SPEAKER_00]: Before we do that, though, let me make sure to hit a couple of hard hitting questions that I wanted to make sure to ask. 29:06.090 --> 29:06.350 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 29:06.950 --> 29:09.971 [SPEAKER_00]: this one's tough, but I'm dying to know your take. 29:10.551 --> 29:19.674 [SPEAKER_00]: You on vibe check did a great episode honoring Dolly Parton who, of course, hit a lot of us gaze really hard as a celebrity death. 29:20.174 --> 29:26.775 [SPEAKER_00]: We recently lost Tim Curry, another huge part of, you know, queer film was he queer himself. 29:27.256 --> 29:29.196 [SPEAKER_00]: He didn't really talk too much about it, whatever. 29:30.056 --> 29:32.057 [SPEAKER_00]: But Dar question, but I want to know, 29:32.838 --> 29:35.421 [SPEAKER_00]: What celebrity death do you fear the most? 29:35.642 --> 29:40.008 [SPEAKER_00]: Or is there a celebrity that when they pass, it will really rattle your week? 29:41.170 --> 29:41.550 [UNKNOWN]: Wow. 29:42.752 --> 29:46.438 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean clearly Beyonce will be devastating. 29:46.887 --> 29:49.208 [SPEAKER_00]: Will I be don't even want to think it's a possibility? 29:49.868 --> 29:52.070 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because she's my deep up. 29:52.170 --> 29:52.630 [SPEAKER_00]: She's my number. 29:52.650 --> 30:01.254 [SPEAKER_01]: She's she's my diva and guess what she's older than us clearly clearly older sedan all the Jordan person and the Jordan person she is a good decade. 30:01.294 --> 30:09.578 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's almost a decade not really, but she's up there And yeah, no, she will be devastating along with her sister Solange and even her mother Miss Tina 30:09.878 --> 30:11.919 [SPEAKER_00]: No, which you spent time with. 30:11.959 --> 30:13.840 [SPEAKER_01]: I saw the picture on the internet. 30:13.920 --> 30:14.640 [SPEAKER_01]: We became friends. 30:14.720 --> 30:16.541 [SPEAKER_01]: She came on Vibeshek and we became friends. 30:16.701 --> 30:19.402 [SPEAKER_01]: And I believe Beyonce was in the room. 30:19.442 --> 30:21.262 [SPEAKER_01]: We were interviewing because she was via Zoom. 30:21.322 --> 30:22.863 [SPEAKER_01]: And she was with Beyonce Chacago. 30:22.883 --> 30:25.904 [SPEAKER_01]: And so there's footage of us via Zoom. 30:25.944 --> 30:27.385 [SPEAKER_01]: And like figures were moving in the back. 30:27.405 --> 30:27.745 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, 30:28.465 --> 30:32.806 [SPEAKER_01]: that could be Beyonce because she was like Beyonce, we had to keep rescheduling. 30:32.826 --> 30:33.887 [SPEAKER_01]: This is tea if people care. 30:34.287 --> 30:42.109 [SPEAKER_01]: We had to re-keep rescheduling the interview because Beyonce, she was like Beyonce needs me to move this around and I was like, baby, do whatever. 30:42.449 --> 30:45.550 [SPEAKER_00]: I need anything for Beyonce. 30:45.911 --> 30:49.992 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to give you my only run in with Beyonce, which was not really one, but I was, you know, 30:50.492 --> 30:51.152 [SPEAKER_00]: close enough. 30:51.793 --> 30:55.374 [SPEAKER_00]: Outside of like seeing her concerts, I was walking through New York. 30:55.434 --> 30:56.574 [SPEAKER_00]: It was close to Brian Park. 30:56.654 --> 30:57.395 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm with a friend. 30:57.495 --> 31:05.238 [SPEAKER_00]: He clutches my arm in a way that is so violent that I was like honestly little upset because I didn't think there was anything worth clutching my skin that hard. 31:05.858 --> 31:09.119 [SPEAKER_00]: But I look over and I see a flowing dress, a little girl. 31:09.260 --> 31:14.222 [SPEAKER_00]: It is blue IV in Beyonce walking into Jay-Z's office building close to Brian Park. 31:14.322 --> 31:23.186 [SPEAKER_00]: I only got a glimpse of the side of her face in the back of her, but I felt the molecules of the earth switching from me and I knew I was in the presence of a goddess. 31:23.786 --> 31:25.949 [SPEAKER_01]: that's that's more than I've ever had with her. 31:26.349 --> 31:32.277 [SPEAKER_00]: I've been in concerts and seeing but I've never you've shared you shared air with Tina Knowles. 31:32.357 --> 31:33.298 [SPEAKER_00]: You have. 31:33.439 --> 31:35.061 [SPEAKER_01]: She was my date to an event. 31:35.241 --> 31:36.042 [SPEAKER_01]: That's all crazy. 31:36.062 --> 31:38.705 [SPEAKER_01]: Like after that I was like, do you want to go to speaking of 10? 31:38.725 --> 31:41.549 [SPEAKER_01]: I think we brought up to this earlier but she came to me with me to the US Open 31:42.522 --> 32:11.973 [SPEAKER_01]: That's there last year and yeah, there's so much tea that maybe I'll share on the behind the scenes here about that, but yeah, she I would just say that the scene was on her phone a lot sitting next to me and I would be like, oh, oh my god, oh my god, I was just it was a match for me, you know that's actually a point that I don't think about enough, which is what is going on on the phones of our legends, who are they texting, who are they talking should about because listen, 32:12.593 --> 32:33.936 [SPEAKER_00]: We all have friends that we like to gossip with and it doesn't change human nature doesn't change and so you know that Beyonce has either what's Apped someone or text at someone something shitty about Someone we would be so who would we love to hear Beyonce gossip about I mean I want to hear say something mean about like a straight guy that deserves it 32:34.743 --> 32:36.206 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, like a straight celebrity. 32:36.326 --> 32:38.008 [SPEAKER_01]: I hope she talked about Timothy Shalabay. 32:38.209 --> 32:39.550 [SPEAKER_01]: Hope she's like, uh, that twink. 32:39.651 --> 32:41.313 [SPEAKER_01]: Cause she's like, oh, that little twink or something. 32:41.373 --> 32:43.937 [SPEAKER_00]: If it's on, so I called Timothy Shalabay a little twink. 32:44.197 --> 32:46.861 [SPEAKER_00]: I would go on the dress spot. 32:47.262 --> 32:49.084 [SPEAKER_00]: Eyes rolled back in my head. 32:49.665 --> 32:56.867 [SPEAKER_01]: What I've learned, this is a very LA thing for me to say, but through my experience around that type of star, you know, those are stars. 32:58.307 --> 33:07.950 [SPEAKER_01]: What I've learned is that not only do they talk shit and talk shit to each other and text about it, but they're also very much online and they're seeing all of us talking shit about them. 33:08.950 --> 33:26.995 [SPEAKER_01]: I have been at so many drinks, dinners, run-ins where someone will say, you know, there's some people I don't want to say because they'll get mad if they were to see this, but they're very, I've been around very, very famous pop stars who will have a photographic memory on about certain TikTokers who talk, should about them and they bring out and pride and wow. 33:27.015 --> 33:34.238 [SPEAKER_01]: So they're very like, I mean, to be that famous is to be a narcissist and it requires a narcissism to get that level. 33:34.258 --> 33:35.198 [SPEAKER_01]: Like that's incredible. 33:36.118 --> 33:50.246 [SPEAKER_00]: What you're pointing to is that a human being is a human being no matter what level of fan they are at and I will tell you the reality about my marriage is that when Matt and I first started dating and for the first I'm going to say five years to seven years. 33:51.286 --> 33:59.533 [SPEAKER_00]: He would tweet at these real housewives and these bravo people, and he would say some hateful shit, contestorist recce shit. 34:00.133 --> 34:09.201 [SPEAKER_00]: And I would be like, Matt, these are real people, they read this and as like a fellow egotistical, hopefully one day successful performer, comedian, whatever. 34:09.821 --> 34:31.303 [SPEAKER_00]: You're putting bad karma in the universe for people to say mean shit to me and then we literally had to like talk about it in therapy or however it got worked out Somebody had to remind me like Matt is Matt you are you and that's fine and like he's else if he has calm down a bunch, but he'll still sometimes, you know Post some crazy shit and I'm like whatever 34:31.823 --> 34:36.749 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a canon event for a gay man to have a fight with a real Hustwife on Twitter. 34:37.089 --> 34:40.513 [SPEAKER_01]: I had my own with Kimzelciac back in the day. 34:40.953 --> 34:46.900 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes, when I That's a good fight before I became a good person before feminism saved me. 34:47.200 --> 34:53.187 [SPEAKER_01]: I was, you know, 19-20 in my dorm just Twitter fingers at Kimzelciac and her wife. 34:53.607 --> 35:18.106 [SPEAKER_00]: You were still getting your degree in feminism and once you earned it, then you knew you had to be nice to Kims Olsiyak Yeah, I'm not going to get into this because it's way too dark-sided, but I was looking up trending things So they'd be like, well, maybe I'll ask about X and then the biggest things were like Kims Olsiyak's son being arrested It's real dark son Anybody listening right now if you do Google it's just like, oh, it's the kids like 14. 35:18.166 --> 35:18.486 [SPEAKER_00]: It's dark 35:18.786 --> 35:22.528 [SPEAKER_00]: Anyways, we are sending our love to anyone who needs it. 35:22.548 --> 35:31.994 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, um, let's do the final podcast question before we get into our really juicy BTS, um, the final podcast question on the main feed is a tough one. 35:32.014 --> 35:38.077 [SPEAKER_00]: And that question is, if the world was ending, you could only save one character act, 35:42.757 --> 35:45.358 [SPEAKER_01]: My pick, and you can say Zack, this is bullshit. 35:45.819 --> 35:49.120 [SPEAKER_01]: But I, Julie Roberts is near dear to me. 35:49.741 --> 35:53.843 [SPEAKER_01]: Controvers, and dear, and she's a character actor. 35:54.103 --> 35:57.785 [SPEAKER_01]: She famously wore a wig in Pretty Woman, a big wig. 35:57.965 --> 35:59.106 [SPEAKER_01]: That was a very large wig. 35:59.406 --> 36:07.791 [SPEAKER_01]: She worked a lot with wigs, you know, still like millions, one of my favorite movies of all time when she's sick, and she's on dialysis, a wig. 36:07.811 --> 36:08.651 [SPEAKER_01]: She has a lot of wig. 36:08.811 --> 36:26.735 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, Julie Roberts, let me let me just point to something which is there was a comment on YouTube recently I believe that was dragging me by saying Eric to your definition any single woman is a character actress and my first response is like so what so what if they are is that the worst thing in the world? 36:27.155 --> 36:36.637 [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm now playing the tape forward and I want to ask you Zach Stafford to anybody who says to you how dare you Julia Roberts is not a character actress. 36:36.897 --> 36:37.797 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you have a retort? 36:39.002 --> 36:55.232 [SPEAKER_01]: My retort is, if Lady Gaga can sit in an interview with Stephen Colbert and say, Stephanie is the artist, Gaga is the performer, and all that definition of like, dicing herself up and creating all these boundaries around her personhood, then Julia Roberts is a character actor because it's 36:55.552 --> 36:58.094 [SPEAKER_01]: Lady Gaga, to me, has always been just Lady Gaga. 36:58.114 --> 36:59.415 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, Stephanie is all of this thing. 36:59.435 --> 37:02.137 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you're saying that Julia contains multitudes. 37:02.317 --> 37:11.244 [SPEAKER_00]: And one of those identities is her character act trust statistic, which I think she absolutely has shown us in so many different ways. 37:12.304 --> 37:16.247 [SPEAKER_00]: It's actually a gorgeous answer because her career 37:17.435 --> 37:18.596 [SPEAKER_00]: has been so divine. 37:18.796 --> 37:20.898 [SPEAKER_00]: And I am my best friend's wedding. 37:20.918 --> 37:23.361 [SPEAKER_00]: I only watch for the first time early in the pandemic. 37:23.441 --> 37:27.825 [SPEAKER_00]: And that sort of led to this podcast because I made a video about a call that's a gay ass movie. 37:27.925 --> 37:30.127 [SPEAKER_00]: And I said, why my best friend's wedding was so gay. 37:30.587 --> 37:32.749 [SPEAKER_00]: And that inspired the podcast. 37:32.790 --> 37:36.073 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think Julie Roberts, we can say, made so many of us gay. 37:36.333 --> 37:40.036 [SPEAKER_00]: She absolutely has character actress qualities and Zack Stafford. 37:40.116 --> 37:41.578 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so thrilled you saved her. 37:41.978 --> 37:48.502 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm so thrilled you have come on this gay ass podcast before we flip over for the paid subs on sub stack. 37:48.542 --> 37:51.684 [SPEAKER_00]: Will you tell these stunning listeners where to follow you? 37:51.704 --> 37:53.345 [SPEAKER_00]: Does anything you would like for them to know? 37:54.564 --> 37:58.167 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Instagram is the only outlet I really use these days. 37:58.387 --> 38:01.169 [SPEAKER_01]: I barely checked my blue sky in my threads. 38:01.449 --> 38:06.913 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll let go of threads and post something and come back and see all this chatter and be like, what have I done? 38:07.013 --> 38:08.394 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't engage with this anymore. 38:08.974 --> 38:13.337 [SPEAKER_01]: When I was younger fighting when the Kim's Olsiack, I was open to all the traffic of the internet. 38:13.437 --> 38:15.259 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I just kind of Instagram. 38:15.359 --> 38:17.040 [SPEAKER_01]: And then, vibe check. 38:17.380 --> 38:19.302 [SPEAKER_01]: I show twice a week with Siri Sexim. 38:19.642 --> 38:22.524 [SPEAKER_01]: You can follow us on Instagram at vibe check underscore pod. 38:23.004 --> 38:24.044 [SPEAKER_01]: or listen to us forever. 38:24.164 --> 38:25.345 [SPEAKER_01]: You get your podcasts. 38:25.865 --> 38:29.346 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely listing those in the description. 38:29.526 --> 38:45.010 [SPEAKER_00]: Zack's social, the vibe checks social, go support the pot of so delicious and as you can tell, Zack is a stunning hang, which is why I want to get into the final, you know, 13 minutes of this recording. 38:45.150 --> 38:45.850 [SPEAKER_00]: I would love. 38:46.450 --> 38:47.792 [SPEAKER_00]: to ask some hard hitting questions. 38:48.693 --> 38:58.065 [SPEAKER_00]: When I go into formative moments, whether they're hook up being or dating, does anything come to mind, or would you prefer some pointed questions to get us there? 38:59.067 --> 39:18.734 [SPEAKER_01]: I have something, because I told this story the other night to some friends, I won't say who to protect their identities, but they, we were talking, sharing horror stories of dating, and I joke that why is it that men, straight men, especially when I get people involved in crimes when you're dating them, especially when you're young. 39:19.234 --> 39:25.216 [SPEAKER_01]: And my friend, one of my friends was like, oh my god, right, like all these guys have gotten to get me to walk out on a bill or do all these things. 39:25.496 --> 39:28.517 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, yeah, I had a guy trying to get me to rob a bank once and she was like, 39:30.198 --> 39:42.243 [SPEAKER_01]: So my story, my formative story is that when I was in my early 20s, I was in college in Chicago, I met the sky, he was a tennis player, I played tennis my whole life, and this is very, it's that's my actual heated rivalry. 39:42.303 --> 39:50.446 [SPEAKER_01]: I did, when I was 16, I was having a secret romance with a captain of a rival team, and so we would hook up in the locker room. 39:50.546 --> 39:54.808 [SPEAKER_01]: So I, when heated rivalry is actually, we need to get to that in the other part, but that's, you know, 39:55.148 --> 40:04.296 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a big thing that a quick pitch and plug is that a friend of mine, Andrew McWyer, has a book coming out that is gay tennis vibes and you're going to love. 40:04.416 --> 40:06.217 [SPEAKER_00]: I will be sending it with the DEATH. 40:06.838 --> 40:08.119 [SPEAKER_01]: Send, please. 40:08.719 --> 40:14.284 [SPEAKER_01]: But so in college, I wasn't playing college tennis and I meet this tennis player from the University of Michigan. 40:14.304 --> 40:14.824 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll say that. 40:14.944 --> 40:18.828 [SPEAKER_01]: He had just graduated and we started dating and hanging out and hooking up. 40:18.848 --> 40:21.089 [SPEAKER_01]: He was the most beautiful man I'd ever, 40:22.190 --> 40:23.771 [SPEAKER_01]: hooked up with, I thought at the time of my life. 40:24.211 --> 40:27.572 [SPEAKER_01]: And one day he was picking me up for a date, he didn't show up. 40:28.632 --> 40:31.393 [SPEAKER_01]: And I thought I was getting ghosted in the, he just disappeared. 40:31.413 --> 40:33.174 [SPEAKER_01]: And we were like, not boyfriend boyfriends. 40:33.214 --> 40:38.976 [SPEAKER_01]: We were like, very close friends that were dating and hooked me up was kind of, you know, that gray zone that you sometimes go through. 40:39.236 --> 40:39.436 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 40:39.816 --> 40:41.436 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's a reason to ghost me. 40:41.957 --> 40:45.958 [SPEAKER_01]: And days later, I get a phone call from him, and he says, I'm actually on my way to rehab. 40:46.978 --> 40:52.081 [SPEAKER_01]: I am an alcoholic, and my alcoholism turned into kleptomania because it was being not treated. 40:52.822 --> 41:10.953 [SPEAKER_01]: And I began stealing things and I got pulled over in some items I stole when the car and I'm really glad they arrested me because that night when I was picking you up I had and they used that afternoon and I had ambitions of trying to rob a bank and seeing if you would be the getaway driver. 41:11.333 --> 41:24.764 [SPEAKER_00]: For the rest of the interview, head to sub-stack linked below where you will also find chats with Colin Braun, Rich Burns, Christopher Patterson, Rosso, Tyler Varval, Sebastian Dino, Cody Silver, Johnny Sibley, Sam Altizer, and more. 41:25.204 --> 41:32.370 [SPEAKER_00]: It's at substack.com slash at Eric Wills, and I will see you there for a gorgeous Harry Hornie time. 41:32.390 --> 41:33.131 [SPEAKER_00]: I love you.