WEBVTT

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[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the intentional fatherhood podcast, where we explore what it means to live on purpose as a father and how legacy starts at home.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Justin Whitmorely, and I'm Brooke Moser, we'll be your hosts, and we desire to bring biblical hope and practical hope.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know her.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back to the intentional fatherhood podcast.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So excited to have you guys joining in.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We're in season four on your vice Seven Deadly Sands.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Justin Wilmore early, and this is my man Brooke Moser.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We've been going through the series on the seven Deadly Sands.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And we come to the heavy topic of lust today.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We're like giggling and laughing about opening the episode, but this one's gonna get deep.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah What's your listeners do about liking subscribing and sending us voice memos?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, please, honestly, please do all of it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And are you laughing at what you said?

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm really trying to laugh for the whole life about the amount of things you said after you said less and the immaturity in me is not noting it, but I guess by saying I'm not noting it, I'm kind of noting it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We, we digress it would be so helpful if you rated subscribe left a comment that is always really great and such a help to get the word out and also one of the things it just I know you get this feedback all the time in different channels whether it's emails social media DMs you different ways to connect

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[SPEAKER_00]: this sharing like so many guys sharing this which is so encouraging and if this is helpful that is also a very very huge way to just help us get the word out so thank you and then if you have a question like we talk about a lot of stuff and we can't talk about everything but we know that your story particularly might have an angle that we don't address and so if you have a question please all you need to do is record a 60 second voice memo with your name where you're from and there's email that really briefly to hello at intentional

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[SPEAKER_00]: and check it out.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Also, if you would like to know where we're going to be, what next city we're going to be into visit you, what are next to events at Austin, Texas, is our next one.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Please go to intentionalfatherhood.org.

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[SPEAKER_00]: There's a bunch of resources there.

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[SPEAKER_00]: There's different things we have living in that space.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You can learn more about Justin's work and not only as a lawyer but also as an author speaker and you can learn more about intentional.

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[SPEAKER_00]: What we do as a whole intentional is obviously intentional Fatherhood's part of it, but intentional's

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[SPEAKER_00]: We have intentional motherhood, fatherhood, we have intentional parenting and marriage and we get to do all sorts of content around the family.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So here we are.

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[SPEAKER_00]: That was a lot.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You had you didn't ask that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: That was a lot, but I was just thinking I'm hoping somebody out there is like, wait, what?

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[SPEAKER_01]: There's more than intentional fatherhood and lucky you.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to go explore intentional now and see all of this ministry does.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to love it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So go do it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Dude, I just want to note this is a little bit off topic, but on the power of sharing, we two nights ago were at a restaurant and somebody came up to us and started talking to us.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And it turns out this person is on a text chain called Covenant Friends.

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[SPEAKER_00]: They are now on a text chain called Covenant Friends.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it is.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Some guys came to our retreat in Costa Mesa, who won the Costa Mesa.

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[SPEAKER_01]: were inspired, praise God, by some thoughts on friendship and went back.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And the point here is they shared it, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: This guy didn't even come to that conference, but he met us and he was on a chain called Covenant Friends because of the conference.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I, we both have plenty of critiques of technology, but one of the beauties of it is that you can share a podcast like this, something that you learn at a retreat and you're looping in other guys so the work that the Lord is doing in your life.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Which is like the pleasure of us meeting a guy who's on a text chain called covenant friends and he did his friends came to our conference was just astounding.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So share share share share share and I will agree that story was so fun because he took out his phone and he's like, look, it's called they named it covenant friends and it was like, it was my guy.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, let me also just say I'm going to set you up to kind of kick off some of this episode because as we as already noted, we've been going through the seven deadly sins and we make a pivot here.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And the pivot is to more of these, what we would probably say are obvious.

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[SPEAKER_00]: sins, the ones of lust, greed, uh, what's the other one?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Let me, they're like me, yeah.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Um, they's a little bit more outward.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so we're starting with lust, but primarily because I, I think this especially for fathers is one, and especially for men, and it is not exclusive to men, by the way, sisters listening, you know this, but I just want to be really clear for men.

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[SPEAKER_00]: This is something that is really common.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so we want to talk about what it is, what it is,

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[SPEAKER_00]: What do you need to be concerned about?

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[SPEAKER_00]: What should you not be concerned about?

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[SPEAKER_00]: What does God say?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Where is their hope and redeeming?

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[SPEAKER_00]: And this episode is really going to cover the whole gamut of less.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I just want to give everyone also some just heads up so you know, this is not just going to be talking about pornography.

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[SPEAKER_00]: This is not going to be just something like don't.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Don't look at pornography.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously don't.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But that's not only that there's so many layers to why pornography might be something you dabble in our addicted to and it's only one of many other ways that less can show up in your life and we want to cover the game.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So just maybe start us off with how we are actually going to move through today.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, but let's clear the air here.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna need a little bit of humor with them.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, less so yes We really should have one of those taboo beepers or there's like Things yeah, I say something okay that on I think I opened the episode where like we're really gonna go deep on this one Yeah, you got you got to help it like with it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I've no problem.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'll just probably go You can't say that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I don't say X. Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Got it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So

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[SPEAKER_01]: What is sex for?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I think is the best place to kick off a conversation unless because you listener like us have been inundated since you were young on all the things you ought not do.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But it is pretty wild that if you look at the Christian theology of sex,

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[SPEAKER_00]: which is a little bit scandalous.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Which I tell my kids actually when we talk about this topic it's like, guys, this is actually so good.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, this is the right place to start.

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[SPEAKER_01]: This is the right place to start for you, for your marriage, for your children.

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[SPEAKER_01]: because Christian theology starts in Genesis one with God inventing the material world embodied human beings and then literally inventing the idea of sex.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So Christian theology should make you blush a little bit because God, this is God's idea, okay.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He created us with all the specific anatomy that we had and he created our desire.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I just think that's a very, very important place to start because what we are not talking about when we talk about lust.

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[SPEAKER_01]: is desire for sex in and of itself.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You are actually meant to have an incredibly strong, almost overpowering desire for your wife or your husband in the context of marriage.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Sex is capital G, good.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And everything that's wrong about sex is in the context of when you take a fraction of it out of that unit of hole and you break up or take a part what God joined together, which is of course, you know, one of the most important statements on marriage and sex in Genesis to let no man separate what God has joined together.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So very briefly, a quick high-level Christian theology of sex, traditionally, a biblical theology of sex, three, that sees at least three things going on.

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[SPEAKER_01]: A unitive pointing to our desire to be one with God.

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[SPEAKER_01]: a unitive uniting with our wife or husband, if you're a woman listening, and then a procreative aspect.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So the unitive aspects are sexes there.

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[SPEAKER_01]: This is a fusion five.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Sex in marriage is there to show us that we long for union with God.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We long for spiritual union.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the metaphors for that is sexual union in marriage.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So you are met.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We hear so many songs about, um, you know, I think of like Bruno Mars, or I could think of other pop songs where they're the reigning metaphor is 24 karat magic.

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[SPEAKER_00]: What is this song that I think of?

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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know 24 karat magic is probably not the song, but your sex takes me to paradise.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I think that it could be close.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It might be that it is a Bruno Mars song.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I can't remember.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe.

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[SPEAKER_01]: almost any pop song like will make an illusion of sex in sort of spiritual and like heights that this person has never gone to.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's supposed to.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Sex is supposed to make you think, oh my gosh, there is so much more to the world and I am starting to find something that is just otherworldly.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It is.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's supposed to make you long for a union with God.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And it's supposed to make you see that you in yourself are incomplete.

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[SPEAKER_01]: A celibate life is not actually the intended

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[SPEAKER_01]: ins and union with God.

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[SPEAKER_01]: A lot there.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm going to be more brief on the other two.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The second part of the unit of aspect is it's supposed to bind you together in marriage.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You're supposed to long for sex with your spouse.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's supposed to be something that you cannot live without.

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[SPEAKER_01]: If you're married, you should be practicing it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to look different for everybody, but it's supposed to unify you together.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And then of course, it's the act of love that is so creative.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So creative that it doesn't just generate union with your

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[SPEAKER_01]: these things are incredible and everything about lust is one or more of these things gone wrong.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But you got to know what's right about sex before you know what what's wrong with it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's a great.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I love about that?

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's just in your head.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You set it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: There's no notes.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Has anyone ever said, I haven't been reading this, I mean, I did fairly recently, I have to read a lot about this for the chapter on sex and body teachers.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I remember you were not talking about it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm talking about it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm talking about you talking about the sex chapter.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You didn't talk about that a lot.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You just talked about the book a lot.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The bar is like, I know it's a good book.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I just, hey, this is real.

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[SPEAKER_00]: This is real friends.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I was going to say something about it, but now I'm not fine.

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[SPEAKER_01]: What were you going to say?

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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I remember it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I think it was something along lines of like honestly, it was so helpful for me to be reminded of the fundamental category that God made this and it is good.

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[SPEAKER_01]: There's so much guilt attached to sex.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, even in marriage,

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's just a helpful reminder to start with the pros.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you were made for it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: That's kind of why you're crazy about it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah And there's another angle of that which is some are not crazy about it and there's you know I've met with countless couples actually at this point where this sex drive is far more in the woman's category or the wife is far more has a higher sex drive And you're the man the same.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe you don't and so

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[SPEAKER_00]: Again, there's so many variables to why on that, and we just have to, we honor both, but we're also talking to father specifically here.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So what is lust?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Lust?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So you talked about a beautiful theology.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's actually great job.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The disordered search for intimacy.

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[SPEAKER_00]: That's what lust is.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's a disordered search for intimacy.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you're, you're searching for it in the wrong ways.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And you're looking how you can take it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And really, honestly, less is also more private.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's more of like your control, your whole, and this leads to so many things we're going to talk about.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But less promises intimacy while training us at the very same time, interestingly, to avoid it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So the interesting thing is like it's like I promise intimacy lusts us, but it also in the very same act trains you to never actually have it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And this is why it's a deadly sin because it keeps you in the perpetual loop of never being able to actually experience the intimacy that it promises.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Makes sense?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, absolutely.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I love your, I love your nodding.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's reminding me of one of the themes that Sam comes at you trying to be reasonable and like, oh, look, you can get intimacy here.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And is insanity because lust is actually the thing that cuts off intimacy.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So it's a great point.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And lust has a lot of believable lies and I know this for my own experience, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like,

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[SPEAKER_00]: Because what most people are looking for through lust, again, we're not going to just name, we're not going to just talk about, we're not going to just talk about pornography as an example.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We will touch on that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But it's actually to, it's so much deeper.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And when you sit on the surface of just thinking that lust is sexual desire for someone that's not your spouse, that is it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But it's so much deeper.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So many more.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And we have to paint the whole picture so you can understand where you're fighting so you can have the right tools to fight it and that's really what we want to talk about because Most of us less most believable lies and this is where it's tricky because they're lies, but they're very believable is and I've experienced this like I said

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[SPEAKER_00]: what you're stressed like that's a lot like they're for lustis maybe okay or you're lonely you feel rejected you feel unwanted these are things like the lustful whisper in our ears I can make that go away yes I can solve this for you

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[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the temptation because it's a real need, like men, you're stressed.

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[SPEAKER_00]: There's no doubt if you're alive and you have kids and you're spouse, you're stressed.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like at least some point in the day you're stressed.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You are lonely because adulthood, ironically, especially even if you have covenant friends and you have a spouse, there's moments of loneliness.

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[SPEAKER_00]: There's moments of depression and sadness.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's where we have to be so aware that less promise is something it could never deliver and in fact keeps us stuck from the thing we need most, which is intimacy and closeness with our spouse and our family.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I want to just say that to paint the picture that desire is not the enemy.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You started by saying capology good.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah desire is so good and I want to just encourage everybody listening.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Do not demonize desire desire is beautiful.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It is so important.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Having desire is one of the gifts of being

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[SPEAKER_00]: to desire and not just for sex like the other day we went got some jet skis broke that was fun that was one on the water the desire for fun the desire to like find a rock that was really warm and just lay on it for a minute and have the UVs like hit you there's that's desire

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[SPEAKER_01]: What you're saying, just to connect for our listeners, is it's the opposite of sloth.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's the opposite of a CDA to call good.

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[SPEAKER_01]: What God calls good, to be joyful about what God has joyful about, desire is so good.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The lack of it is that first problem that we talked about.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, keep going.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But God invented all this.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm just saying like, that's the important part.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Is he invented sex?

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[SPEAKER_00]: He invented the moment when two buzzer hanging out, what plus three chab was there too, Chab?

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[SPEAKER_00]: We love you.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We were having a great time and it was like that's desire and that's one way it's played out and lust is disorder desire and I think that's where we just have to clarify and the Bible, if you're like, I will talk about this all the time.

15:25.068 --> 15:28.450
[SPEAKER_00]: So much in church history but one verse just to highlight James 114 through 15.

15:30.731 --> 15:38.674
[SPEAKER_00]: But each person, including you and I Justin, is tempted when they're dragged away by their own evil desires.

15:38.954 --> 15:39.794
[SPEAKER_00]: So, right, desire?

15:40.234 --> 15:42.255
[SPEAKER_00]: Not, not, desire is good, but evil desires.

15:42.655 --> 15:43.556
[SPEAKER_00]: And then they're enticed.

15:43.976 --> 15:45.476
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, hey, here's the promise.

15:46.257 --> 15:49.938
[SPEAKER_00]: Then after desire has conceived, the rest of the verse goes on, it gives birth to sin.

15:51.709 --> 15:52.530
[SPEAKER_00]: many for this before.

15:52.550 --> 15:58.353
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no doubt, but desire becomes destructive when it stops asking a couple specific questions.

15:58.373 --> 16:07.098
[SPEAKER_00]: And these are the questions that you need to be aware of, because this is the indicator of like, is this disorder desire or is this, is this God-given desire?

16:08.459 --> 16:12.101
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when it stops, so it becomes destructive when it stops asking a few questions, how can I love?

16:13.261 --> 16:17.584
[SPEAKER_00]: So if it's not asking that question, like, how can I love this person?

16:18.044 --> 16:19.185
[SPEAKER_00]: Am I being loving this person?

16:22.044 --> 16:29.867
[SPEAKER_00]: There's that line for all of us where we need to have like a checklist and we'll get into this, a checklist of like, I'm feeling this thing and we're going to help you name that.

16:30.808 --> 16:39.131
[SPEAKER_00]: But then what you do after that moment of just trying to identify, is this lust, is this sadness, like how do we, how do we not consume?

16:39.151 --> 16:41.392
[SPEAKER_00]: How do we not become these people with disorder desires?

16:41.852 --> 16:45.714
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the last thing I just want to say, because this is really important on this disorder desire piece.

16:46.694 --> 16:55.639
[SPEAKER_00]: Jesus had actually a lot to say about this, which is always comforting to me, because Jesus was God and man in the whole thing.

16:56.059 --> 17:00.402
[SPEAKER_00]: And what I love about Jesus talking about this is He gives just such a clear language I can only does.

17:01.062 --> 17:08.266
[SPEAKER_00]: Matthew 527, you've heard that it was said, you shall not commit adultery, good advice, wisdom.

17:09.186 --> 17:12.408
[SPEAKER_00]: And then He goes on, you've heard it before, but I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman

17:17.498 --> 17:20.320
[SPEAKER_00]: Jesus wasn't trying to make the rules more strict.

17:20.740 --> 17:26.003
[SPEAKER_00]: He wasn't trying to make it like, hey, let me just give you the religious duty here.

17:26.803 --> 17:27.824
[SPEAKER_00]: He was after your heart.

17:28.324 --> 17:29.244
[SPEAKER_00]: He's after your heart.

17:29.705 --> 17:30.925
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a heart issue.

17:31.025 --> 17:32.406
[SPEAKER_00]: Less starts in your heart.

17:33.186 --> 17:39.410
[SPEAKER_00]: And it plays out, the downstream effect affects everybody and can ruin families and lives which we'll talk about.

17:40.310 --> 17:47.172
[SPEAKER_00]: But it starts in your heart, and Jesus isn't just trying to get you to obey and not look at something, although that's yes, right?

17:47.433 --> 17:48.353
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, it's trying to get your heart.

17:48.713 --> 17:50.694
[SPEAKER_00]: So thoughts on that, Justin.

17:50.814 --> 17:51.474
[SPEAKER_00]: What are your thoughts?

17:51.494 --> 17:52.334
[SPEAKER_00]: How are you processing that?

17:52.354 --> 17:57.736
[SPEAKER_00]: I know I'm saying a lot of things, but I want to kind of just sit with this for a second, as we're moving through this episode.

17:58.049 --> 17:59.590
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would take these two things.

18:00.090 --> 18:01.772
[SPEAKER_01]: They created purpose of sex.

18:02.492 --> 18:07.595
[SPEAKER_01]: And then what you just shared broke on disordered desire being the core problem of lust.

18:07.876 --> 18:09.217
[SPEAKER_01]: Jesus placed it in the heart.

18:09.897 --> 18:12.659
[SPEAKER_01]: And just practically say, okay, so in light of those,

18:14.452 --> 18:17.675
[SPEAKER_01]: where are we talking about good sexual desire and where are we talking about lust.

18:17.915 --> 18:21.279
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'll give a couple practical examples and I want you to you tell me if you agree.

18:21.559 --> 18:30.448
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, um, a ridiculous distracting desire to have sex with your wife constantly throughout the day while you're at work.

18:31.782 --> 18:32.683
[SPEAKER_01]: I would not call that lust.

18:33.063 --> 18:35.784
[SPEAKER_01]: I would call that what God made marriage for.

18:36.405 --> 18:42.789
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it like, if you find yourself in some ways consumed with thoughts about your spouse, again, just wanna say, like, that's good, okay.

18:43.589 --> 18:46.371
[SPEAKER_01]: But what about, we got this question a lot.

18:46.471 --> 18:47.832
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a long trip.

18:48.132 --> 18:52.714
[SPEAKER_01]: What if I'm traveling and masturbation while thinking about my spouse?

18:53.095 --> 18:53.255
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

18:53.855 --> 18:56.577
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say, understand the impulse.

18:57.412 --> 19:08.066
[SPEAKER_01]: I put that in the lust category because what you're doing is you're engaging the desire while not having any of the aspects like this is not unifying you with your spouse.

19:08.086 --> 19:11.691
[SPEAKER_01]: This is just um, meeting your desire for sex.

19:11.731 --> 19:14.374
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you can see in that example, the reason I would say no, don't do that.

19:15.676 --> 19:25.449
[SPEAKER_01]: It's because it's like divorced from one of the created aspects of sex, and then you can, you know, look at pornography is sort of an obvious example.

19:25.509 --> 19:26.310
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not you.

19:26.350 --> 19:27.672
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not your spouse.

19:31.377 --> 19:33.158
[SPEAKER_01]: it's not even you having sex.

19:33.178 --> 19:36.981
[SPEAKER_01]: There's so many reasons that pornography divides up the world.

19:37.461 --> 19:38.782
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what makes it so dangerous.

19:39.122 --> 19:40.243
[SPEAKER_01]: You looked like you had to say something.

19:40.263 --> 19:50.289
[SPEAKER_00]: I just wanted to add to the, what you were talking about because that is a common question I think and especially you know, father's meant, well, well, well directly respond to this stuff because we think about it.

19:51.851 --> 20:03.243
[SPEAKER_00]: in a healthy way and can't say that and I just not not even to even disagree just to maybe add another like a couple lenses to what you just said as well.

20:04.004 --> 20:09.029
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the other things about like the less category that you're talking about with masturbation, thinking about your wife.

20:10.113 --> 20:13.216
[SPEAKER_00]: I think one of the more dangerous pieces is in that world.

20:13.617 --> 20:15.239
[SPEAKER_00]: You are in complete control.

20:16.240 --> 20:18.562
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that's dangerous because that's not real.

20:18.682 --> 20:20.104
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's just real talk.

20:20.625 --> 20:23.528
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to pretend no one else is in the room, Justin, and please no one listen in.

20:24.268 --> 20:26.791
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm in a private conversation here.

20:27.572 --> 20:29.254
[SPEAKER_00]: Is in that framework,

20:30.455 --> 20:32.316
[SPEAKER_00]: she can respond the way you want her to.

20:32.416 --> 20:33.896
[SPEAKER_00]: She can act the way you want her to.

20:34.376 --> 20:37.357
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not her use serving her and her serving you.

20:37.557 --> 20:46.980
[SPEAKER_00]: It is you having a fictitious version of your spouse doing things that maybe she doesn't do or doesn't feel comfortable doing.

20:47.120 --> 20:47.400
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

20:47.761 --> 20:55.103
[SPEAKER_00]: And that only increases bitterness towards the fact that maybe she can't or won't or whatever the thing is.

20:55.123 --> 20:55.263
[SPEAKER_00]: So,

20:55.763 --> 21:19.013
[SPEAKER_00]: This is how deep it goes, and I'm trying to highlight it because of the fact that it is actually doing more Psychological damage to you and bitterness is being built with your wife Even though you think well, I'm just thinking about my wife And one other thing that I would just say is it is good for you to have to say no to yourself on things you want

21:19.273 --> 21:25.799
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and if you travel all the time and you and your spouse are, you know, you figure this out and she's fine or whatever.

21:26.500 --> 21:31.104
[SPEAKER_00]: I would just do your best to find maybe if you can't, we're not law here, right?

21:31.605 --> 21:33.326
[SPEAKER_00]: Jesus is inviting us into a deeper life.

21:33.907 --> 21:36.910
[SPEAKER_00]: You're invited into that same deeper life, but I think wisdom would say.

21:38.713 --> 21:42.558
[SPEAKER_00]: it's okay for you to be on the road and not experience all that you want.

21:43.419 --> 21:48.365
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's good for you to have to learn how to say no to yourself and your desires.

21:48.745 --> 21:50.167
[SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't, I mean, I couldn't agree more.

21:50.187 --> 21:53.571
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'd probably even be a little more strict on this because yeah.

21:54.892 --> 22:04.480
[SPEAKER_01]: If you don't know how to master even your God-given desires, you're in a world of disordered loves, that we're going to continue to talk about in the next two episodes on Gluttony and Greed.

22:04.940 --> 22:11.045
[SPEAKER_01]: All of these sins, lust, gluttony and Greed are over desires for good created desires.

22:12.466 --> 22:16.509
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll get there, but I do think it's worth noting on the same subject.

22:17.169 --> 22:31.619
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the same thing that does make lust possible in the marital bedroom when sex is carried out in a way that is I mean at worst non-consensual, I mean that's obviously lust that's even more that's right

22:32.159 --> 22:49.199
[SPEAKER_01]: But even if it's if it's pressuring to be something that only one person wants or at a time where only one person wants it and as you pressuring very intentionally there is in like it's it's a wonderful category of marriage to be like, well, I'm not in the mood, but I'm happy to serve you.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

22:50.581 --> 22:51.302
[SPEAKER_01]: That's wonderful.

22:51.542 --> 23:06.003
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but when it's something more than that, we would probably call it demanding or like a pressure, that's when you and I'll just be from the male perspective as when you are saying, I want just a part of you.

23:06.784 --> 23:10.486
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want all of us, say more, we're dividing up what God made whole.

23:10.926 --> 23:15.569
[SPEAKER_01]: The reason masturbation, I think, is inherently lustful, is because of what you just said.

23:15.589 --> 23:23.133
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a solitary act, whereas the whole point of sex in both of those unitive aspects and and that percreative aspect.

23:23.653 --> 23:24.834
[SPEAKER_01]: it's inherently plural.

23:24.894 --> 23:27.295
[SPEAKER_01]: This is what's so interesting about sex.

23:27.795 --> 23:31.056
[SPEAKER_01]: It shows that we in and of ourselves are incomplete.

23:31.416 --> 23:39.620
[SPEAKER_01]: You in the world are actually not a finished creation, which is so crazy because everything else that God made in creation is finished.

23:39.980 --> 23:40.200
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

23:40.481 --> 23:45.285
[SPEAKER_01]: But when we get the creation of Adam and Eve, they are not complete without each other.

23:45.365 --> 23:51.791
[SPEAKER_01]: Meaning, we reflect kind of this aspect of the Trinity that God is plural.

23:52.731 --> 23:55.093
[SPEAKER_01]: We are also not okay just by ourselves.

23:55.234 --> 24:00.158
[SPEAKER_01]: So when we take sex and say it's just going to be a methane, you're missing the whole

24:00.358 --> 24:01.159
[SPEAKER_01]: point of sex.

24:01.739 --> 24:24.212
[SPEAKER_01]: Sex is meant to say I inherently need another that is a dynamic person with with desires and moods and and well they want sex this way and I want sex that way and the whole point is that you have to navigate another human being called your spouse and figure this out together that's that is the good of it that's why it's unitive and so when you put it like that

24:27.574 --> 24:34.223
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's inherently about you, not about the plural of you or masturbation, just about you, not the plural of you.

24:34.863 --> 24:46.538
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's you a long way, because the things that are outside of marriage, you know, actual adultery, imagining and fantasizing about sex with somebody that's not your wife pornography.

24:47.298 --> 24:49.139
[SPEAKER_01]: You know masturbation over pornography.

24:49.159 --> 25:01.945
[SPEAKER_01]: These things are all kind of like obviously in the lustful category But I think where some guys do get legitimately hung up in curious is sort of like what's okay In the bedroom with your wife and what in is masturbation when I'm like thinking about my wife?

25:02.625 --> 25:13.090
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, okay, and there's where I want to be really clear with guys like yeah, like there's real capacity for sin and lust Involving your wife there and you want to be as careful about that as you are about the other things

25:13.430 --> 25:19.053
[SPEAKER_01]: you well said well said and let me just know I didn't like love the way that last sentence ended.

25:20.133 --> 25:25.636
[SPEAKER_01]: The best way to be careful about them is by engaging the glory and the pleasure of sex rightly.

25:26.377 --> 25:33.120
[SPEAKER_01]: So the bigger thesis of this whole episode is the best defenses are good offense like run to the goodness of sex.

25:33.140 --> 25:34.521
[SPEAKER_01]: That'll protect you from a lot of the badness.

25:34.541 --> 25:35.661
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll get there later practical.

25:35.681 --> 25:36.642
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's this kid there.

25:36.922 --> 25:37.062
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

25:37.322 --> 25:52.935
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, one of the things I think just to mention before we kind of move, keep moving, there's that phrase Augustine famously said, you've definitely heard it, our hearts restless until it rests in you.

25:52.975 --> 25:53.135
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

25:53.595 --> 26:02.984
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a restlessness that we all have in lust promises to fill it and it's like, oh, you're going to be, you're going to be fine, feed the restlessness.

26:03.164 --> 26:05.106
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you feed it, it will finally be satisfied.

26:05.867 --> 26:08.410
[SPEAKER_00]: And Jesus just says, the opposite, bring your restlessness to me.

26:08.550 --> 26:08.790
[SPEAKER_00]: You know?

26:09.571 --> 26:16.177
[SPEAKER_00]: And why I'm saying that is because I think lust isn't even always really about sex.

26:17.258 --> 26:33.199
[SPEAKER_00]: This is really important to note because it's primarily, at least this is my experience, less isn't primarily about having too much desire, it's about having too little of an imagination for what desires ultimately for.

26:33.519 --> 26:33.839
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

26:34.160 --> 26:35.921
[SPEAKER_00]: So we and we've talked about this before.

26:35.941 --> 26:39.885
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't it's not that we have two.

26:40.185 --> 26:41.607
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, how is that code?

26:41.687 --> 26:42.407
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure you know it.

26:42.447 --> 26:43.348
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm blanking on it right now.

26:43.388 --> 26:44.529
[SPEAKER_00]: So I won't I won't butcher it right now.

26:44.950 --> 26:52.737
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's the idea in short where essentially it's not that we, you know, can't imagine good is that there's

26:53.758 --> 26:54.638
[SPEAKER_00]: Now I'm blanking on it.

26:54.658 --> 26:57.560
[SPEAKER_01]: Wait, wait, is it the idea that it's not that we want too much is that we want too little?

26:57.920 --> 26:58.660
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that would be great.

26:58.740 --> 26:59.481
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

26:59.561 --> 27:00.081
[SPEAKER_00]: You saved me.

27:00.101 --> 27:01.442
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, thanks for saving me.

27:01.702 --> 27:02.162
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.

27:02.282 --> 27:03.123
[SPEAKER_00]: You saved me all the time.

27:03.183 --> 27:03.903
[SPEAKER_01]: You're so welcome.

27:03.923 --> 27:04.383
[SPEAKER_01]: What a good guy.

27:04.403 --> 27:04.703
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, look.

27:04.943 --> 27:05.304
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

27:06.184 --> 27:09.205
[SPEAKER_01]: Lewis and Chesterton have both have great versions of this.

27:09.506 --> 27:09.726
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

27:09.946 --> 27:21.371
[SPEAKER_01]: And they both point out something really important that you're getting at lust remarkably is actually always wanting too little of God's design, not too much of it, which is why

27:23.952 --> 27:32.494
[SPEAKER_01]: Whether it's like a recent stat that unmarried people actually have far less sex than married people is interesting.

27:33.555 --> 27:37.036
[SPEAKER_01]: You're missing out on sex, not doing it in the marriage bed.

27:37.556 --> 27:42.177
[SPEAKER_01]: But you're also wanting a broken version of it when you could have so much in the correct version.

27:42.197 --> 27:44.397
[SPEAKER_00]: So... Well, it's just a really like what you're getting.

27:44.417 --> 27:45.198
[SPEAKER_00]: I really like what you're getting.

27:45.218 --> 27:46.518
[SPEAKER_00]: Finish that thought of, just to finish the thought.

27:46.578 --> 27:49.219
[SPEAKER_00]: It's simply that it's not...

27:50.819 --> 27:54.242
[SPEAKER_00]: that we just don't have an imagination for how good it could actually be.

27:54.282 --> 27:55.102
[SPEAKER_00]: We can't see it.

27:55.603 --> 28:00.026
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, we're entering this new life and think about, you have four boys, have one boy, three girls.

28:00.426 --> 28:17.238
[SPEAKER_00]: We have, you know, eight kids between the two of us were raising eight humans into this world and they're entering a sexually broken world to the point that most people don't even know that sex with a person is basically the most normal thing and how disordered

28:18.419 --> 28:30.047
[SPEAKER_00]: so many people that experience pornography and ongoing use of it have there's going to be such a massive swing of education that I even see with my own kids of just communicating and constantly keeping them aware of life.

28:32.045 --> 29:00.378
[SPEAKER_00]: Even what we're talking about right now is an education for some that they've never heard not because men you're you're dumb or anything it's because this is one of the greatest ways the enemy to seize and and hides and and distorts and pornography's been a huge part of that but it's also just been confusing because we can we can meet almost all of our desires outside of these things but we also feel so empty and alone and it actually leaves us worse off so we're trying to tell you the truth about all that so

29:01.398 --> 29:04.991
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, yeah, that is the thing that I'm always kind of

29:06.617 --> 29:11.238
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm always kind of shocked by it's like, we are not actually having a big enough vision.

29:11.638 --> 29:11.858
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

29:12.358 --> 29:14.219
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't understand God's vision how good it is.

29:14.439 --> 29:16.399
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we settle for just these crumbs.

29:16.479 --> 29:19.700
[SPEAKER_00]: When he's like, bro, I got tried to write on the table.

29:20.240 --> 29:22.100
[SPEAKER_00]: And you love try to, so that's why I said it.

29:22.180 --> 29:25.661
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why I tried to share a very brief story that leads you to that.

29:25.761 --> 29:25.921
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

29:26.241 --> 29:32.162
[SPEAKER_01]: This might be a little challenging because I mentioned, I think, on the last episode, I was recently reading Dante's Inferno.

29:32.242 --> 29:32.622
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.

29:32.682 --> 29:34.483
[SPEAKER_01]: Which is a thing that like annoys people.

29:34.543 --> 29:35.663
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you present on the plane over?

29:36.203 --> 29:36.424
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

29:36.744 --> 29:37.905
[SPEAKER_01]: Why aren't people annoyed by this?

29:37.986 --> 29:42.331
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, maybe it's because I'm an English major and I'm used to pretentious comments.

29:42.351 --> 29:48.079
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's like one of the most classic gold pieces of writing of all time.

29:48.119 --> 29:49.941
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's like, yeah, it's just on the short list.

29:49.961 --> 29:52.104
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's also a reality that most Americans haven't read it.

29:52.124 --> 29:53.506
[SPEAKER_01]: So they're sort of like, what are you talking about, Justin?

29:53.546 --> 29:53.927
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah.

29:54.947 --> 30:05.412
[SPEAKER_01]: I would just say it has just had some fascinating insights about what sin actually is and one of his insights on lust I thought was amazing.

30:06.232 --> 30:13.275
[SPEAKER_01]: He meets a character in hell who was a woman who was married in like the Italian aristocracy.

30:14.275 --> 30:21.198
[SPEAKER_01]: And she tells Dante a story, like, yeah, I was married to this guy and his brother.

30:22.319 --> 30:32.484
[SPEAKER_01]: And I started basically having a romance and we were reading the King Arthur tales about Lancelot and we read about the part where Lancelot kisses going over here, which is a famous affair in the King Arthur story.

30:33.184 --> 30:36.626
[SPEAKER_01]: We put down the book and we kissed ourselves.

30:37.446 --> 30:40.667
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the poem is Dante writes it says, and we read no more.

30:42.028 --> 30:48.053
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you understand what's going on, you understand the absolute tragedy of it, because two things happened in that story.

30:48.093 --> 30:49.974
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is actually a real historical story.

30:50.395 --> 30:57.440
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, both of those lovers were murdered by the brother who found out they were having a fair.

30:57.540 --> 31:01.383
[SPEAKER_01]: As in, it cut off their entire life, their mistake.

31:02.324 --> 31:06.447
[SPEAKER_01]: Second, they read no more of the story, and if you keep reading the story of Lancelot.

31:07.288 --> 31:09.490
[SPEAKER_01]: You realize all the horrible problems

31:10.030 --> 31:12.351
[SPEAKER_01]: that came because of this adult-risk kiss.

31:13.072 --> 31:19.356
[SPEAKER_01]: So what's fascinating about the way the Dante writes is he stops in the story at the sort of high point of less.

31:19.736 --> 31:22.437
[SPEAKER_01]: We put down the book we kissed and we read no more.

31:23.058 --> 31:24.899
[SPEAKER_01]: And you could read that is like, oh, that's sexy.

31:24.959 --> 31:29.341
[SPEAKER_01]: Like they threw the way the book and then they just had sex with each other, which is what did happen.

31:30.542 --> 31:39.606
[SPEAKER_01]: But what he's showing you is that all the glory of the rest of life, all the complexity of the rest of life, actually even though rest of life was cut off.

31:40.466 --> 31:43.107
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what Chesterton Lewis are saying when it's like you want too little.

31:43.127 --> 31:47.329
[SPEAKER_01]: You wanted that moment and it turns out in hell, that's what they got.

31:47.789 --> 31:54.472
[SPEAKER_01]: They got just that moment and the upshot of that point is there was a whole world of marriage waiting for you.

31:54.837 --> 31:56.659
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a whole world of story waiting for you.

31:56.679 --> 31:58.342
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a whole world of life waiting for you.

31:58.902 --> 32:03.188
[SPEAKER_01]: And you cut it off because of lust, is inherently a life and desire cut short.

32:03.419 --> 32:03.559
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

32:04.079 --> 32:04.280
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

32:05.240 --> 32:07.982
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, well, I know that was a huge attention.

32:08.082 --> 32:08.862
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not a tangent.

32:08.882 --> 32:09.443
[SPEAKER_00]: That was brilliant.

32:09.463 --> 32:10.463
[SPEAKER_00]: I really liked it.

32:10.604 --> 32:11.204
[SPEAKER_00]: Not only liked it.

32:11.224 --> 32:14.626
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's, it's incredibly applicable to the point.

32:14.666 --> 32:15.287
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that wasn't.

32:15.307 --> 32:15.787
[SPEAKER_00]: It was great.

32:16.207 --> 32:21.751
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about some of the, I think just practical, what's this part here?

32:21.831 --> 32:22.371
[SPEAKER_00]: We made a note.

32:22.451 --> 32:23.051
[SPEAKER_00]: What was this part?

32:23.532 --> 32:25.233
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think you, where are we going?

32:25.513 --> 32:27.754
[SPEAKER_01]: You have a good, honestly,

32:29.415 --> 32:34.859
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, your life, you know, your family shows the danger that lust engage the way them.

32:34.899 --> 32:35.399
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

32:35.479 --> 32:42.523
[SPEAKER_01]: I think fathers have a unique responsibility to be careful about this because it's destroys not just you but your family.

32:42.543 --> 32:43.784
[SPEAKER_01]: It cuts your family's story off.

32:43.864 --> 32:45.185
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

32:45.685 --> 32:50.928
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think the hidden part of it for my family of origin.

32:51.469 --> 32:55.511
[SPEAKER_00]: And I shared my whole story of like my family's story on the open spaces,

33:00.134 --> 33:08.939
[SPEAKER_00]: And I won't go through everything here because it is very heavy and very long and it's a lot, it's just a lot.

33:09.359 --> 33:11.360
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think the phrase to maybe highlight is,

33:12.728 --> 33:16.650
[SPEAKER_00]: or to say the statement is what lust takes from fathers.

33:16.910 --> 33:17.170
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

33:17.430 --> 33:19.671
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it does take.

33:20.152 --> 33:24.654
[SPEAKER_00]: Even if it doesn't seem like it's taking, it's sneaky and it's stealing right now.

33:25.634 --> 33:31.097
[SPEAKER_00]: And lust essentially fragments us and it puts us into these different compartments.

33:31.357 --> 33:39.001
[SPEAKER_00]: And so basically you have a version of dad, abrex fist and then a version of dad at night at 10 p.m. overwhelmed or stressed with everything else.

33:39.761 --> 33:46.665
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, secrecy does something to your soul, and you don't actually get to decide.

33:46.845 --> 33:54.329
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like, if you are living in it, it will start to fragment, and this is why living a life without secrets is so important.

33:54.769 --> 33:59.052
[SPEAKER_00]: It's because it is the thing that will set you apart and save you.

33:59.712 --> 34:04.175
[SPEAKER_00]: Because lust will steal your fatherhood from you if you are not aware.

34:04.935 --> 34:07.057
[SPEAKER_00]: And in my story, that was it.

34:07.197 --> 34:17.103
[SPEAKER_00]: My dad was unfatholic to my mom for almost every year of their marriage, not with women, but with men, which is a whole other topic, which we can talk about.

34:17.223 --> 34:27.551
[SPEAKER_00]: But in two his dying day, when he died, unfortunately, and so sadly, of complications from that lifestyle,

34:29.570 --> 34:32.091
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it robbed so many parts of him.

34:32.492 --> 34:37.875
[SPEAKER_00]: And why I'm so sad about it is because, I mean, truly, my dad was a great man in many ways, just like many men are.

34:38.575 --> 34:42.257
[SPEAKER_00]: He had wonderful parts, and he, I remember fondly some moments with him.

34:42.977 --> 34:52.703
[SPEAKER_00]: But if there's one thing I can say so certainly, and so clearly, so many parts of his fatherhood were robbed by that secret life.

34:52.943 --> 34:53.123
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

34:53.703 --> 35:02.570
[SPEAKER_00]: And how I know that now was because when I look back and now I'm learning all the different stories or different relationships or different things that we're going on when I was these particular ages.

35:03.610 --> 35:05.111
[SPEAKER_00]: He was always almost there.

35:05.932 --> 35:06.633
[SPEAKER_00]: He was there.

35:07.753 --> 35:11.496
[SPEAKER_00]: He'd be there for movie night and he'd be there for the different things we did.

35:11.516 --> 35:13.818
[SPEAKER_00]: There's never really there.

35:13.998 --> 35:15.539
[SPEAKER_00]: In the moment you don't know what you don't know.

35:15.859 --> 35:19.402
[SPEAKER_00]: But when you become a father, you start to know exactly what's happening and you start to see clearly.

35:20.637 --> 35:33.405
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think the saddest thing to say, and hopefully this is a sobering wake-up call to you, gentlemen, because I can tell you what, it is a sobering, beautiful help of for me to know exactly what not to do.

35:34.825 --> 35:43.110
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it was such a pain to learn this about my dad in my early, you know, or my late teens.

35:44.191 --> 35:47.313
[SPEAKER_00]: And then to have to watch him die in my early thirties.

35:48.990 --> 36:00.072
[SPEAKER_00]: And to have to see that even his death now, because of how he died and died in a lot of shame in the sense of not really ever being able to talk about a mushroom or anything, or ask for forgiveness.

36:01.717 --> 36:05.058
[SPEAKER_00]: it's still creates massive problems.

36:05.078 --> 36:16.103
[SPEAKER_00]: I was sharing stuff with you just even this week of things that have come up with my family of origin stuff where it's like just still haunting you down and hurting.

36:16.523 --> 36:17.964
[SPEAKER_00]: It still hurts now.

36:19.044 --> 36:19.144
[SPEAKER_00]: And

36:20.545 --> 36:21.846
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's the other truth to be generous.

36:22.086 --> 36:23.086
[SPEAKER_00]: I know he doesn't want that.

36:23.286 --> 36:24.526
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd have would never want that.

36:24.566 --> 36:25.107
[SPEAKER_00]: He loves me.

36:25.147 --> 36:25.907
[SPEAKER_00]: He loves my family.

36:26.187 --> 36:27.267
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, let's go and put it.

36:27.648 --> 36:34.550
[SPEAKER_00]: But because this was an unchecked area, he had a deeper need, crazy abuse growing up.

36:35.590 --> 36:41.032
[SPEAKER_00]: He had this cavern of just abuse and stuff that he didn't even know how to deal with.

36:41.052 --> 36:48.075
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm very empathetic to the fact that it was there was some such reasons why he didn't even know what to do with all the pain he had.

36:49.336 --> 36:53.281
[SPEAKER_00]: But a lifeless secrets and compartmentalization was the way that he coped with his reality.

36:54.282 --> 36:58.367
[SPEAKER_00]: And I can so understand that because it's a very effective tool.

36:58.528 --> 37:02.413
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's effective at fulfilling a momentary, just the point you, the story is just shared.

37:02.513 --> 37:06.278
[SPEAKER_00]: A momentary hole in our heart, moment to just quickly seep through.

37:07.246 --> 37:08.927
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what happened.

37:09.227 --> 37:13.790
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm a byproduct, my life hugely was affected by that.

37:14.050 --> 37:16.912
[SPEAKER_00]: And I can just say, man, you don't want that.

37:17.172 --> 37:18.193
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't want to give your kids that.

37:18.894 --> 37:20.214
[SPEAKER_00]: And you don't have to.

37:21.476 --> 37:23.817
[SPEAKER_00]: but you do have to begin to start living life without secrets.

37:24.517 --> 37:26.838
[SPEAKER_00]: And lust is taking something from your father.

37:27.558 --> 37:34.080
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you don't get real honest with yourself and realize that honesty is actually healing, it's not hurt.

37:34.581 --> 37:36.561
[SPEAKER_00]: Everyone gets so crypt up on this one.

37:36.581 --> 37:38.282
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the stuff I stop so many people.

37:38.302 --> 37:45.124
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, if I'm honest, I'm gonna be shamed and brutally, like if I tell the truth, no, like it's, there's gonna be some pain involved.

37:45.144 --> 37:45.244
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

37:45.604 --> 37:49.806
[SPEAKER_00]: For sure, especially if you build up and pent up like years and years of,

37:50.506 --> 37:51.447
[SPEAKER_00]: sin has consequence.

37:52.087 --> 37:52.547
[SPEAKER_00]: Or sure.

37:52.567 --> 37:53.988
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just going to say that.

37:54.148 --> 37:54.988
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so glad you said that.

37:55.008 --> 37:57.910
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it has consequence, but it's not to find a word.

37:58.610 --> 37:59.310
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not the end.

37:59.611 --> 38:06.154
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not like, yeah, like when your kids get in trouble, you're like, hey, you know, you're going to be going to your room for a bit or whatever your thing is.

38:07.916 --> 38:09.577
[SPEAKER_00]: That hurts for a bit, they don't like that.

38:10.478 --> 38:17.103
[SPEAKER_00]: But there's a start, and there's an end, and if you begin the road of healing, yeah, you can be sure, it's gonna hurt like crazy.

38:17.683 --> 38:20.305
[SPEAKER_00]: And you can be sure that you're not gonna stay there if you keep moving in it.

38:20.405 --> 38:22.707
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, I would just be hyper-aware.

38:23.687 --> 38:29.432
[SPEAKER_00]: If it is lust, stealing your fatherhood from you, if it is, men there's hope, and you don't want that life.

38:29.732 --> 38:33.174
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, we just and I both can tell you from different experiences, different moments of our life.

38:34.155 --> 38:35.296
[SPEAKER_00]: We didn't, we don't want that life.

38:35.456 --> 38:36.296
[SPEAKER_00]: We didn't want that life.

38:36.556 --> 38:38.478
[SPEAKER_00]: And we both struggled with that life.

38:38.678 --> 38:42.360
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think it's just important to make that clear.

38:44.421 --> 38:46.922
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't think, thank you.

38:47.483 --> 38:47.883
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, bro.

38:48.443 --> 38:51.085
[SPEAKER_01]: Your story is so complex.

38:52.165 --> 38:53.346
[SPEAKER_01]: But you share it so well.

38:53.546 --> 38:55.167
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it becomes so helpful.

38:56.388 --> 38:58.889
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I long to tell fathers,

39:00.310 --> 39:03.653
[SPEAKER_01]: soberly, be so careful of lust.

39:03.693 --> 39:18.444
[SPEAKER_01]: It has a unique capacity to destroy everything else in life the way in a way that anger and greed and and gluttony and envy just don't like because sex is so good and God made it so powerfully good.

39:19.345 --> 39:20.866
[SPEAKER_01]: It has such a shadow side.

39:20.906 --> 39:28.612
[SPEAKER_01]: There can be so powerfully wrong, but I don't think any statement can share it as effectively as your story does.

39:30.733 --> 39:41.397
[SPEAKER_01]: It can rob so much from your family and I really like how you put it that it has consequences but it's not the end of your story.

39:41.617 --> 39:41.838
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

39:42.458 --> 39:45.779
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would just share a personal note for me.

39:49.240 --> 39:56.583
[SPEAKER_01]: This is one of the most important themes that we're trying to weave through these episodes on VICE that we want you to take your sins seriously.

39:56.603 --> 39:57.063
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

39:58.063 --> 40:00.504
[SPEAKER_01]: So you can take the grace of Jesus seriously.

40:01.324 --> 40:04.005
[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe no better place than lust.

40:04.685 --> 40:14.669
[SPEAKER_01]: If you are harboring a place of lust in your life, could be pornography, could be a masturbation habit, it could be a text chain with a coworker who is not your wife, it could be

40:15.309 --> 40:16.810
[SPEAKER_01]: a secret social media account.

40:16.870 --> 40:18.151
[SPEAKER_01]: It could be a number of things.

40:18.171 --> 40:19.491
[SPEAKER_01]: I might need to be a full bone affair.

40:20.072 --> 40:28.236
[SPEAKER_01]: Whatever you're doing, Father, if you are listening to this right now, I want you to cut that part of your life off.

40:29.677 --> 40:35.900
[SPEAKER_01]: Immediately with a butcher knife, it must be hacked down like the ashore poles in Israel.

40:36.520 --> 40:38.721
[SPEAKER_01]: You cannot leave a little bit of it standing.

40:39.542 --> 40:41.803
[SPEAKER_01]: You must go in there.

40:41.863 --> 40:43.204
[SPEAKER_01]: Remember you're living in an action maybe.

40:43.984 --> 40:45.065
[SPEAKER_01]: Santa's a fight.

40:45.145 --> 40:47.747
[SPEAKER_01]: The enemy wants you to think, you know, pair it back a little bit.

40:47.847 --> 40:48.487
[SPEAKER_01]: It'll be okay.

40:49.428 --> 40:55.873
[SPEAKER_01]: I urgently exhort you to get help to cut this out of your life because of the consequences.

40:56.033 --> 40:57.934
[SPEAKER_01]: It has on you and the rest of your family.

40:58.255 --> 41:00.716
[SPEAKER_01]: You have a need for responsibility to cut down these ashore holes.

41:01.717 --> 41:05.660
[SPEAKER_01]: so that your family is not hurt by your sin.

41:06.380 --> 41:09.562
[SPEAKER_01]: We talked about this at the Fatherhood Retreat and I suspect we'll talk about it at every one.

41:10.443 --> 41:25.933
[SPEAKER_01]: The uniqueness of Joshua 2415 is that he is calling households to serve the Lords and not the gods of the Canaanite to the Amorites, which by the way were basically sacrificing babies so that they could worship sex.

41:26.794 --> 41:33.119
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what we do, where our indulgence in lust is at the expense of our children and our families.

41:33.920 --> 41:39.805
[SPEAKER_01]: And in my life, you know, I struggled with pornography significantly in my late teens and early 20s.

41:40.866 --> 41:46.512
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just want to stand as a testimony that it is possible to cut that out of your life.

41:47.072 --> 41:49.654
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess it's not and has not for a long time.

41:50.355 --> 41:51.216
[SPEAKER_01]: been an active struggle.

41:51.236 --> 42:07.811
[SPEAKER_01]: There have been moments where I've either like scene pornography or clicked on it with intention in the past like two decades, but they've all been extremely isolated and so incidents that my friends know about immediately and like, yeah, can't be called vice because they create no habit.

42:08.491 --> 42:14.797
[SPEAKER_01]: And I hope that that's encouraging that in even in a world where it's hard to avoid pornography because it's honestly everywhere, it's hard to avoid loss because there's so many

42:16.298 --> 42:30.783
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I, I hope I say this without any arrogance and just encouragement that it is actually possible to come to a place where you say that used to be a vice and the Lord's grace is now so much more serious and real in my life than my sin ever was.

42:31.664 --> 42:38.686
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's possible to, it's possible to find healing and I urgently commend you to go, to go find it, find to help you that you need.

42:39.527 --> 42:43.568
[SPEAKER_00]: Couldn't agree more and I think maybe to not even the counterpoint but maybe just to say a

42:47.305 --> 42:49.246
[SPEAKER_00]: When I got married, I got married at 21.

42:49.486 --> 43:00.593
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say it was the opposite for me, like I didn't really have any struggle with pornography in like college years and or even the first like 10, 12 years of marriage.

43:00.613 --> 43:04.716
[SPEAKER_00]: I was actually in many ways in your experiences that unique like when you talk to most people.

43:05.787 --> 43:06.067
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

43:06.087 --> 43:07.710
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't know.

43:07.930 --> 43:08.751
[SPEAKER_00]: I really don't know.

43:09.953 --> 43:20.589
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm I'm not sure, but what I would say is what why I'm saying this is because I think it's important to note that why why I approach this whole topic of less from a very

43:21.989 --> 43:43.337
[SPEAKER_00]: deep perspective of like what's the thing behind the thing is because in my story I started to realize that that only became a temptation where even something I would ever even think of when my little girl was diagnosed with catastrophic form of epilepsy and I found out that she was special in these and my son had health stuff and my wife had health stuff and

43:50.848 --> 43:54.731
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like overwhelmed in every way that you could be.

43:55.532 --> 44:16.069
[SPEAKER_00]: That was when all of a sudden, and I don't even remember the moment of the time, but where there was just a little door cracked, and I think even the little crack of the door was maybe something so innocent that you wouldn't even, maybe even categorize as lust, you know, maybe we categorize it as lust, but it wasn't like I'm not looking, it wasn't pornography.

44:16.930 --> 44:33.183
[SPEAKER_00]: And so then, I've shared this in other episodes, but then the journey was man, all of a sudden, that became something that was a vice, it became something that was like, wow, I, and it wasn't, you know, again, it's not this ongoingly crazy thing, and that doesn't make it any better, by the way.

44:33.303 --> 44:38.348
[SPEAKER_00]: I say this even right now, because I think it makes me feel better, but the fact is, sin is sin, and it's destructive.

44:38.808 --> 44:41.790
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm glad that it didn't become something that took my life over.

44:42.091 --> 44:42.311
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

44:42.551 --> 44:44.793
[SPEAKER_00]: But man, it could have, it could have been a second.

44:45.775 --> 44:53.722
[SPEAKER_00]: But I was started to realize, do the help of others and through great therapy and other folks like, man, I'm just wanting the wrong thing.

44:54.202 --> 44:57.064
[SPEAKER_00]: And just like fat and sugar are satisfying.

44:58.205 --> 45:01.728
[SPEAKER_00]: And we grab that instead of other things because it works.

45:02.809 --> 45:03.650
[SPEAKER_00]: It also leaves us Warsaw.

45:03.730 --> 45:04.591
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the same with us.

45:04.651 --> 45:10.816
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we are really worth looking, well, for an hour if he's the same way, you know, it temporarily works when to make it worse immediately.

45:11.376 --> 45:33.988
[SPEAKER_00]: And so for me it was different and that was actually a little weird honestly because I think having that as a struggle when I was a little bit older at least already pretty established in marriage and in life was kind of weird because I was like this isn't because I'm not satisfied of my marriage because I'm not having sex with my wife.

45:34.008 --> 45:34.849
[SPEAKER_00]: This isn't because

45:35.929 --> 45:37.450
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't enjoy all these elements.

45:37.770 --> 45:39.811
[SPEAKER_00]: It was, it was other.

45:40.391 --> 45:54.197
[SPEAKER_00]: And that has been, I think, a very important thing for me to learn and know and having safeguards and accountability and all the practical things of understanding why, knowing what, I can say, man, it has been a gift to be free from.

45:54.217 --> 45:54.317
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

45:55.177 --> 46:00.822
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's also like, I want to say this because there's that verse and Proverbs, I always think, let's take heed less you fall, right?

46:00.942 --> 46:01.142
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

46:01.942 --> 46:06.786
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that, and you said this already, by God's grace, it doesn't rule me.

46:07.907 --> 46:16.013
[SPEAKER_00]: At the very same time, I'm very, very aware that at any moment, not in a scared way, but like, I wouldn't put it past myself.

46:17.175 --> 46:20.639
[SPEAKER_00]: to be in a place where that could take over my childhood.

46:20.699 --> 46:24.924
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I think it's mostly to say like, I'll never put it past myself.

46:25.585 --> 46:27.126
[SPEAKER_00]: I think in a minute it could become something.

46:27.867 --> 46:31.852
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm setting up my life in a hopefully a way that that doesn't become an option.

46:32.233 --> 46:36.097
[SPEAKER_00]: And that there's ways to deal with it, talk about it, heal from it.

46:36.878 --> 46:39.599
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm not lending my life to it.

46:39.679 --> 46:53.723
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not scared of it, but I'm also like sober that to this is easy in ways that even even my own experience, like he was sneaky in ways that were so deep that I was like, oh, I didn't, I didn't even think this could happen.

46:53.743 --> 46:56.924
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't even think that this was an issue and all of a sudden like, oh man, I'm sure I'm going with this.

46:56.984 --> 46:57.084
[SPEAKER_00]: So

46:57.684 --> 47:09.007
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, it's a long way to say that, yes, it's similar but different and it doesn't really matter you know, we're hopefully just sharing opposite up, you know, experiences so that you can kind of see the gamut.

47:09.247 --> 47:10.708
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't matter necessarily.

47:10.728 --> 47:13.708
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't early and now Man has been a great 20 years.

47:14.249 --> 47:16.149
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it been, man, it wasn't a problem.

47:16.169 --> 47:17.569
[SPEAKER_00]: Then all of a sudden it was.

47:17.749 --> 47:19.130
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's a lot of guys in their 40s, 50s, 60s,

47:20.090 --> 47:24.734
[SPEAKER_00]: That maybe it wasn't a problem for the first 25 years of your marriage, but now it is every part of your level.

47:24.774 --> 47:28.537
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it may be And that's not everybody, but that is real.

47:28.877 --> 47:42.749
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm the I will say two encouraging things is that the dominant experience of my life is I made a lot of people like me who it was a very serious addiction when they're earlier life and they have through the grace of God conquered.

47:43.249 --> 47:47.313
[SPEAKER_01]: I also see a trend and this could be just my narrow pool of

47:49.357 --> 47:57.021
[SPEAKER_01]: younger boys being better protected by their fathers and mothers who were taking technology more seriously.

47:57.582 --> 48:01.544
[SPEAKER_01]: Because, you know, I don't blame my parents, but they didn't know enough to know how to protect me.

48:01.664 --> 48:03.185
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was just the 90s.

48:03.205 --> 48:03.745
[SPEAKER_01]: They did.

48:03.805 --> 48:08.448
[SPEAKER_00]: They internet was just like plugged in computer downstairs and nobody really knew the dangers of that.

48:08.468 --> 48:13.291
[SPEAKER_01]: So I truly don't blame them, but I do see just two encouraging aspects.

48:13.311 --> 48:14.251
[SPEAKER_01]: They have people protecting their

48:17.693 --> 48:40.706
[SPEAKER_01]: What I hope both of our stories show is that yes, you must be ever vigilant because the struggle of lust or a man Never goes away as you know equally always present yes, and at the same time You do not have to live in failure and that's really what I just want to say very clearly I know have already said it, but it is it's worth repeating because I heard

48:41.426 --> 48:51.771
[SPEAKER_01]: I think so many times, early in my 20s, such defeatous stories, like, well, you'll always struggle with this, you know, it's every, it's always there, but you can win.

48:52.611 --> 48:53.852
[SPEAKER_01]: This is Genesis.

48:54.412 --> 48:55.493
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

48:55.913 --> 48:56.173
[SPEAKER_01]: Four.

48:56.293 --> 48:57.934
[SPEAKER_01]: I think Kane and Abel, I'm blacking on the number.

48:58.254 --> 49:04.238
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, send crouches at your door, but that may as rule over it, you know, the devil roars like a lion, why ready to pounce?

49:04.719 --> 49:11.383
[SPEAKER_01]: But where the reason we're told those things is because we have the grace of God and the capacity of free will to choose otherwise.

49:11.644 --> 49:13.305
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you really can't rule over it.

49:13.385 --> 49:14.766
[SPEAKER_01]: So we should probably talk about some practical issues.

49:14.786 --> 49:15.726
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about practical.

49:15.827 --> 49:15.987
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

49:16.127 --> 49:20.650
[SPEAKER_00]: Wouldn't you say, though, on that, just to finish that part, just to clarify, because I think this is interesting.

49:22.447 --> 49:26.828
[SPEAKER_00]: you're saying a lot of people, the defeatist mentality.

49:27.449 --> 49:30.230
[SPEAKER_00]: What's crazy about that is there's a certain amount of logic.

49:31.010 --> 49:34.171
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we've talked about many times, saying you're saying that loud sounds crazy.

49:35.031 --> 49:37.232
[SPEAKER_00]: It does sound as a Christian, sound crazy to say.

49:38.012 --> 49:41.917
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you're always going to struggle with this and this is just always going to be a thing.

49:42.618 --> 49:47.083
[SPEAKER_00]: And what's so tricky about that and why I think it's the lie of the enemy is because harder that's true.

49:47.603 --> 49:51.668
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, in one sense or another, but what I'm trying to get that, I'm not trying to even counter what you're saying.

49:51.688 --> 49:54.111
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to just maybe paint the rest of the picture to say,

49:55.827 --> 49:59.511
[SPEAKER_00]: even the idea when people have this wealth, it just has how it's going to be.

50:00.251 --> 50:06.237
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a lie you are choosing to believe because that's not actually God does bring healing.

50:06.257 --> 50:12.063
[SPEAKER_00]: He does bring freedom and I think it's important to say that that's absolutely possible.

50:12.143 --> 50:12.343
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

50:12.523 --> 50:18.329
[SPEAKER_00]: And so even if you are seeing, you know, even a psychologist therapist is like, you are always going to struggle with this.

50:19.009 --> 50:19.390
[SPEAKER_00]: I think

50:21.465 --> 50:29.789
[SPEAKER_00]: that's some maybe there's a part of you that will always have a part that could fall into it, but I think there's way more freedom than that statement reveals.

50:30.309 --> 50:32.750
[SPEAKER_00]: And so just to say the truth, healing is available for all of us.

50:33.071 --> 50:37.533
[SPEAKER_00]: And your story wherever you're at, like, don't believe the lie that you can't heal.

50:37.993 --> 50:45.222
[SPEAKER_00]: Because a lot of people do, like it becomes a logical thing like, well, you know, I'm going to, um, and this is where I don't even know where to land on this topic of like alcoholics and on them.

50:45.242 --> 50:47.244
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, I love alcoholics and on them.

50:47.324 --> 50:49.107
[SPEAKER_00]: I love like what the whole program.

50:49.948 --> 50:57.256
[SPEAKER_00]: But the identity statement constantly, if I'm alcoholic, hello, I'm an alcoholic, and I'm always, and I have some new ones there, and of course there's new ones, and so, so I'm not.

50:58.077 --> 51:20.018
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know that and I'm not even, you know, it's a low, it's a low blow, but I'm just trying to say like in that same thinking like there's identity statements there Sometimes keep us stuck and I know that there's again new ones to alcohol's anonymous, but I would hopefully put a point on this by saying I completely agree and I just want to stay at the obvious I'm a huge fan of good Christian theology.

51:20.259 --> 51:20.499
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah

51:20.959 --> 51:44.050
[SPEAKER_01]: Great, I just think it's so important to realize like one of the most beautiful things about living in the world that God made is that he actually did make it and there are good answers to it and that historically the church has just done wonderful theology that helps answers answer this and if you sort of understand the now and not yet aspect of Christian theology, I think it really helps you here.

51:44.250 --> 51:57.014
[SPEAKER_01]: that the kingdom is both now and not yet and very shortly and simply that means the kingdom is not yet here and form, which means he will probably always face the roaring lion of lust and it will be fighting you today that you die.

51:57.454 --> 52:03.335
[SPEAKER_01]: But the kingdom is here Jesus is with you in the now and that part means he doesn't have to win that battle.

52:03.896 --> 52:06.816
[SPEAKER_01]: You might be fighting to you die, but you can be winning until you die.

52:06.836 --> 52:07.517
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's all.

52:07.937 --> 52:08.377
[SPEAKER_00]: I love it.

52:09.037 --> 52:10.797
[SPEAKER_00]: How can we help our boys?

52:11.098 --> 52:12.418
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about some practical stuff.

52:13.080 --> 52:22.362
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, oh, so I would briefly just state the most important part of this is that the best defense is a good offense.

52:22.502 --> 52:34.905
[SPEAKER_01]: Say, if I know people for this statement both ways, but here, I mean, you're going to be most protected from lust when you are running to God and to marriage for intimacy.

52:35.705 --> 52:48.088
[SPEAKER_01]: I realize that gaping hole in this that we're not addressing singleness or cellobacy, this is a podcast called intentional fatherhood, so we're by nature talking to people who are not celibate, and I just want to acknowledge we could do a whole conversation on that, but I'm going to be different.

52:48.188 --> 52:50.449
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to blatantly ignore it because our audience is.

52:50.469 --> 52:52.089
[SPEAKER_00]: But the thing is a good mention.

52:52.149 --> 52:55.890
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because if you are celibate, there's some really good resources for you.

52:56.430 --> 53:01.911
[SPEAKER_01]: If you are single and you're longing for marriage, there's some really good resources for you, and this just podcast is not it.

53:05.611 --> 53:20.919
[SPEAKER_01]: intimacy with God is such an antidote to lust because of what you just said, bro, it's like, I love how curious you are about your sin, but you're always asking, wait, why am I running to this or that?

53:20.939 --> 53:22.120
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what's going on deeper?

53:22.220 --> 53:22.420
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

53:22.520 --> 53:23.700
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's exactly what's happening.

53:23.721 --> 53:33.946
[SPEAKER_01]: My many of you are struggling with some aspect of lust because you're exhausted by work or you're exhausted by a family problem or there's other, but some other aspect in your life where

53:34.486 --> 53:34.726
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

53:34.826 --> 53:36.828
[SPEAKER_01]: The wheels are falling off and you're coping with lusts.

53:36.948 --> 53:41.570
[SPEAKER_01]: So intimacy with God is actually one of the best curative things there.

53:41.971 --> 53:42.211
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

53:42.591 --> 53:44.933
[SPEAKER_01]: And intimacy with your spouse.

53:45.073 --> 53:54.438
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's so cool that the bulk of the Bible is not about don't do sex wrong.

53:55.099 --> 53:57.520
[SPEAKER_01]: The bulk of it is about run to sex rightly.

53:58.281 --> 53:58.421
[SPEAKER_01]: And

54:00.003 --> 54:17.245
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we could all season on that, like what is intimacy and marriage, but when you are emotionally intimate, spiritually intimate and physically intimate with your wife, I don't generally meet guys who are struggling with lust when those three things are in place.

54:17.465 --> 54:22.850
[SPEAKER_01]: I realize that's really hard, but at least gives you a goal to say I should be spiritually intimate with my wife.

54:22.950 --> 54:34.600
[SPEAKER_01]: I should be emotionally intimate with her and I should be sexually intimate with her and I think I said this two seasons ago when Lauren was on the podcast but in case I didn't or people don't remember Lauren's your wife.

54:34.800 --> 54:44.789
[SPEAKER_01]: Lauren is my wife and one of the most helpful things that has happened in our marriage is that at a very young age before we were married.

54:45.610 --> 54:50.735
[SPEAKER_01]: A spiritual mentor of Lawrence told her, I think we are engaged, maybe it was even premarital counselor.

54:51.456 --> 54:58.262
[SPEAKER_01]: Told her, hey, you should just know how spiritually powerful a good sex life is in your marriage.

54:58.763 --> 55:01.446
[SPEAKER_01]: You are both protected from so many other

55:02.900 --> 55:06.742
[SPEAKER_01]: fights and stressors when you are pursuing this together.

55:07.262 --> 55:13.765
[SPEAKER_01]: Now what that wasn't is like you need to protect your husband from all his problems by giving this to him whenever he wants and however he wants.

55:14.245 --> 55:25.250
[SPEAKER_01]: It was just the biblical statement of good sex within emotionally intimate marriage is the best cure for so many ills of marriage.

55:25.330 --> 55:25.650
[SPEAKER_01]: And so

55:26.530 --> 55:39.453
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, that, I would say praise God has been mostly true of our marriage, like, we have found so much comfort in each other, then it has helped silence so many other dangers.

55:39.633 --> 55:39.894
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

55:40.394 --> 55:41.794
[SPEAKER_01]: And you can always fight for that.

55:42.154 --> 55:51.356
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's plenty of seasons where we've been, you know, just totally at odds or having, you know, trouble in our sex life or emotional life, but it gives us the goal to search for.

55:51.517 --> 55:53.277
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the best practical goal.

55:53.691 --> 56:06.563
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, well, and maybe even to say for for those who are listening who are like must be nice Justin, like my marriage is terrible and we're in a really hard spot or our sex life is never been good.

56:06.623 --> 56:16.752
[SPEAKER_00]: And the reason I say this is because I get to meet with so many wonderful different couples at times and and here are some of the the different struggles and tragedies that people live in.

56:17.092 --> 56:28.301
[SPEAKER_00]: Not of their choosing, even, you know, and so I would just say and name very clearly that if you're hearing that and going, oh, let's be nice.

56:29.122 --> 56:33.165
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to remind you, there's also hope and it does take work.

56:33.245 --> 56:34.266
[SPEAKER_00]: Man, I'm going to say this to you.

56:34.786 --> 56:36.367
[SPEAKER_00]: Often you want to work on your sex life.

56:37.288 --> 56:39.830
[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to work on your sex life, you need to work on your spiritual life.

56:39.870 --> 56:44.252
[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to work on your sex life, you then need to work on your emotional relationship and intimacy with your wife.

56:44.293 --> 56:47.414
[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to actually work on your sex life, you got to start like three steps back.

56:47.535 --> 56:47.815
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

56:48.155 --> 56:49.556
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm so glad you said that.

56:49.636 --> 56:49.936
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

56:50.096 --> 56:50.677
[SPEAKER_00]: But I mean that.

56:50.737 --> 56:56.300
[SPEAKER_00]: So the practical step here is like, if you want change, start or change starts with prayer.

56:56.320 --> 57:03.185
[SPEAKER_00]: It starts with the Holy Spirit starts with you and it starts with you loving the person into what they need.

57:03.225 --> 57:03.885
[SPEAKER_00]: It's listening.

57:07.527 --> 57:25.486
[SPEAKER_00]: But if I was to ask you, which obviously we don't have time for right now, to go through the list of like, what are the things that you do and Lauren does on a daily, that keep you in that place, not only just physical desire, physical desire is just the output of the deeper thing of the love of the connection.

57:25.506 --> 57:29.651
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, what are all those things that aren't sex that are leading to good sex?

57:30.411 --> 57:31.012
[SPEAKER_00]: And healthy sex.

57:31.112 --> 57:37.057
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is the point that I'm trying to make here, not even try to go to the details as much as to say that is how it all starts.

57:37.157 --> 57:37.377
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

57:37.858 --> 57:39.319
[SPEAKER_00]: And, and I'll be fully transparent.

57:39.339 --> 57:44.563
[SPEAKER_00]: And if my wife were here, we talked about this on on the intentional parents podcast and other podcasts we have as well as.

57:46.485 --> 57:47.526
[SPEAKER_00]: This is not an easy for us.

57:48.046 --> 57:50.467
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not an easy for us because we have because we don't love each other.

57:50.507 --> 57:51.187
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't serve each other.

57:51.227 --> 58:02.713
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of complexities within her health and in our life and growing up with a ton of drama and learning that and like dude, I'm naturally pretty bent to be just kind of like but when people meet me the least, you're so nice.

58:02.733 --> 58:03.754
[SPEAKER_00]: How could you ever meet me and dude?

58:03.774 --> 58:03.934
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a

58:04.134 --> 58:09.878
[SPEAKER_00]: shirt most of the time if I'm not filled with the spirit or have like, meaning like my default is not kindness.

58:09.918 --> 58:11.739
[SPEAKER_00]: My default is rough in direct.

58:11.839 --> 58:15.742
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that does not help a wife feel loved and connected.

58:15.782 --> 58:15.962
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

58:15.982 --> 58:23.548
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm always in that space just like any of you who are trying to figure out how to love my wife better, how to serve her.

58:24.714 --> 58:26.755
[SPEAKER_00]: in a myriad of pains I've already created.

58:26.775 --> 58:32.177
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we're healing and we're moving forward and and it's interesting.

58:32.677 --> 58:34.318
[SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't going to mention this, but we must.

58:34.618 --> 58:36.339
[SPEAKER_00]: Why don't you grab that the book?

58:37.359 --> 58:40.500
[SPEAKER_00]: Because this is actually something that I'm going to talk about.

58:40.520 --> 58:44.642
[SPEAKER_01]: I noticed and at the sexual intimacy section towards the front.

58:44.702 --> 58:45.102
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah,

58:45.242 --> 58:57.108
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, no, I was just, so Elizabeth and I, to the point of our brokenness, as you have heard on this podcast, I wrote a book, a prayer devotional called, sewing a hidden seed, daily prayers for your child spiritual growth.

58:57.689 --> 58:58.289
[SPEAKER_00]: It's 31 days.

58:58.549 --> 58:59.209
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a different topic.

58:59.249 --> 58:59.910
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a prayer.

59:00.070 --> 59:00.550
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a verse.

59:00.590 --> 59:01.050
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a quote.

59:01.450 --> 59:02.931
[SPEAKER_00]: Takes one to two minutes max.

59:03.011 --> 59:04.532
[SPEAKER_00]: The point is to get you praying on this topic.

59:05.793 --> 59:08.874
[SPEAKER_00]: Once, it went so much better than we could have expected.

59:08.894 --> 59:09.034
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

59:09.054 --> 59:09.415
[SPEAKER_00]: So much,

59:10.295 --> 59:14.059
[SPEAKER_00]: uh, engagement, but also just the stories of transformation and families has been so encouraging.

59:14.520 --> 59:18.984
[SPEAKER_00]: And no doubt, it's not because the book's good, it's because when people start praying, do a things happen.

59:19.605 --> 59:21.907
[SPEAKER_01]: So what this is, but it's a good book that gets them praying.

59:22.047 --> 59:23.209
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of Lauren loves it.

59:23.549 --> 59:25.691
[SPEAKER_01]: She keeps selling it, and see the press for the kids.

59:26.512 --> 59:28.935
[SPEAKER_01]: The green version on her, uh, quite timetable.

59:29.055 --> 59:30.296
[SPEAKER_01]: She because she does that often in the morning.

59:30.476 --> 59:36.037
[SPEAKER_00]: Dude, and that's high praise because I would just the best endorsement you can have because Lauren is picky about her books.

59:36.357 --> 59:38.478
[SPEAKER_00]: Keep going though, because I what I know she is.

59:38.618 --> 59:40.358
[SPEAKER_00]: So so that's why I'm saying this high praise.

59:40.378 --> 59:50.121
[SPEAKER_00]: I know that, but why I'm mentioning this now, because I wasn't going to, but obviously if you're sitting in the studio, you see it's around because our team decorated it and I'm not mad about it.

59:50.341 --> 59:55.822
[SPEAKER_00]: And you made fun of me yesterday for you're like, oh, I wonder what my friends would kill me if I decorated my, what is decorated

01:00:00.903 --> 01:00:17.914
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I'm saying all that to say Elizabeth and I wrote the second version of volume to sewing a hidden seed daily prayers for your marriage to heal grow and flourish and I'm saying that because I'm saying start with you because this is our life like this isn't like a fake thing.

01:00:17.934 --> 01:00:23.337
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm saying we wrote this together and the topics of each day by the way are not soft topics.

01:00:23.357 --> 01:00:27.680
[SPEAKER_00]: These are not like, uh, each day we picked a different like thing for you to talk about.

01:00:28.240 --> 01:00:35.925
[SPEAKER_00]: And to pray through sexual intimacy, of course, unhealthy attachments, anger, and resentment, playfulness, enjoy.

01:00:36.005 --> 01:00:37.265
[SPEAKER_00]: That's something I noticed that.

01:00:37.445 --> 01:00:38.566
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a great one.

01:00:38.586 --> 01:00:40.007
[SPEAKER_00]: I love the grief and disappointment.

01:00:40.067 --> 01:00:43.009
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the devotion, I read the anger one yesterday.

01:00:43.069 --> 01:00:45.290
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a, oh, I mean, talk about anger and marriage.

01:00:45.570 --> 01:00:51.472
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm telling you this because the point isn't to get this resource and it's helpful to get the resource.

01:00:51.792 --> 01:00:53.052
[SPEAKER_00]: The point is to start praying.

01:00:53.212 --> 01:01:01.894
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, yes, if this helps you because you're like, this gives me a thorough idea of topics that I'm maybe not going to naturally pray for.

01:01:02.635 --> 01:01:03.415
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what this does.

01:01:03.675 --> 01:01:06.356
[SPEAKER_00]: It's hopefully just to take a lot of the guests workout and get you praying.

01:01:06.996 --> 01:01:07.896
[SPEAKER_00]: The point is start praying.

01:01:07.996 --> 01:01:10.797
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, if you want to healthy marriage, you want to defeat lust, you have to start praying together.

01:01:15.658 --> 01:01:32.548
[SPEAKER_01]: So many guys and I love it too like we want to talk about how do we work on our sex life like what should we try You know what do you what are your ideas like what has worked you know There's a joy to those kind of conversations, but there it's also woefully downstream It's it's woefully downstream.

01:01:32.928 --> 01:01:39.792
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, getting a resource like this and and making it a habit to pray for your spouse daily

01:01:40.632 --> 01:01:47.457
[SPEAKER_00]: So wherever you are coming from with this topic, as we're going back and forth on this idea of prayer, you were kind of saying.

01:01:49.040 --> 01:01:55.383
[SPEAKER_00]: just in that, you know, a lot of this is upstream stuff or downstream, whichever direction you go, but prayers where it starts.

01:01:55.423 --> 01:01:58.664
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, and it's also to note, the link will be in the show notes if you want to get it.

01:01:58.704 --> 01:02:05.527
[SPEAKER_00]: You can also to note this will be helpful if you are listening and that is helpful is you can get it, you only get it on her website.

01:02:05.547 --> 01:02:09.008
[SPEAKER_00]: So intentionalfatherhood.org or intentional parents.org is where you can get it link will be in the show notes.

01:02:10.709 --> 01:02:16.931
[SPEAKER_00]: But to say, start with prayer and remember, remember, this starts with you, your heart

01:02:18.372 --> 01:02:19.873
[SPEAKER_00]: other thoughts real quick before we wrap up.

01:02:20.193 --> 01:02:33.941
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I give some like machine gun bullet points that you probably already know, but just a word saying, you got to be in an open covenant friendship conversation with somebody about lust always.

01:02:34.622 --> 01:02:36.143
[SPEAKER_01]: There's just never a time in my life.

01:02:36.563 --> 01:02:36.763
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

01:02:37.043 --> 01:02:42.765
[SPEAKER_01]: where you don't have some body and I don't necessarily even call it an accountability partner anymore because it's the friendship with so much more robust than that.

01:02:42.805 --> 01:02:57.690
[SPEAKER_01]: But I will say like the last time I saw something inappropriate on the internet was because I clicked a wrong link and I texted this friend immediately and was like, hey, this just happened.

01:02:58.190 --> 01:03:01.191
[SPEAKER_01]: I want you to know so that you can ask me next time to make sure I

01:03:05.733 --> 01:03:05.933
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

01:03:06.013 --> 01:03:09.914
[SPEAKER_01]: You've got to have friends you're saying everything to other machine gun bullets.

01:03:11.215 --> 01:03:15.516
[SPEAKER_01]: Your wife and maybe a friend should know the past goes to your phone.

01:03:15.736 --> 01:03:17.876
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and you should just never be alone on it.

01:03:17.976 --> 01:03:22.378
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I understand that they're private browsing windows that are hard to ever get rid of, but

01:03:23.638 --> 01:03:27.840
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, my assistants in my social media accounts, my wife has my pen code to my phone.

01:03:27.900 --> 01:03:28.900
[SPEAKER_01]: Any of them can see.

01:03:28.920 --> 01:03:29.640
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just not alone.

01:03:29.740 --> 01:03:30.681
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't be alone on the internet.

01:03:30.841 --> 01:03:31.501
[SPEAKER_01]: It's never good.

01:03:31.961 --> 01:03:33.562
[SPEAKER_01]: Number three, don't let your kids be alone on the internet.

01:03:33.622 --> 01:03:33.922
[SPEAKER_01]: No.

01:03:34.242 --> 01:03:47.387
[SPEAKER_01]: We can do such a great service to our children in protecting them from the earliest addictions to this stuff because it's one thing broke your story where it's like, oh, I was hit like in my 30s with something.

01:03:47.427 --> 01:03:47.907
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so much

01:03:50.148 --> 01:03:56.353
[SPEAKER_01]: than it is from a seven year unchecked addiction to hardcore pornography when you start that started when you're 12.

01:03:56.393 --> 01:03:56.554
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

01:03:56.874 --> 01:03:59.596
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and your brain forms around it.

01:03:59.716 --> 01:04:03.540
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's just the same wisdom as like don't let your kids drink or do drugs earlier.

01:04:03.560 --> 01:04:05.722
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a reason that these are really serious things.

01:04:06.382 --> 01:04:11.607
[SPEAKER_01]: So you can do it just a lot of good by being intentional with the technology settings in your house.

01:04:12.928 --> 01:04:16.511
[SPEAKER_01]: Those are the probably the the main three things that that I would say.

01:04:16.571 --> 01:04:18.813
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't be alone on the internet.

01:04:18.833 --> 01:04:22.996
[SPEAKER_01]: Have a great friendship where you talk about all this and don't let your kids be alone on the internet.

01:04:23.196 --> 01:04:23.577
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

01:04:24.137 --> 01:04:26.179
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, that's, I agree.

01:04:26.199 --> 01:04:28.461
[SPEAKER_00]: Those are quick, quick options there.

01:04:28.921 --> 01:04:29.262
[SPEAKER_00]: Another thing

01:04:34.346 --> 01:04:44.796
[SPEAKER_00]: It is always, it is still amazing to me how many people have full access to unrestricted access, especially on their phones to the internet, or Safari, or even know that their kids or their iPads or whatever.

01:04:45.456 --> 01:04:46.437
[SPEAKER_00]: Please do yourself a favor.

01:04:46.758 --> 01:04:50.641
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the best practical quick ways to do this, protect young eyes, Chris McKenna, great dude.

01:04:50.841 --> 01:04:51.983
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a really good resources.

01:04:52.023 --> 01:04:53.004
[SPEAKER_01]: I totally agree.

01:04:53.024 --> 01:04:53.764
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a great job.

01:04:53.784 --> 01:04:54.585
[SPEAKER_01]: It is a great job of just

01:04:57.928 --> 01:05:00.410
[SPEAKER_00]: Locking everything down and even in this process as we have teens.

01:05:00.710 --> 01:05:01.811
[SPEAKER_00]: I've called him a couple times like bro.

01:05:01.831 --> 01:05:02.451
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think about this?

01:05:02.472 --> 01:05:03.052
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think about this?

01:05:03.072 --> 01:05:03.732
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think about this?

01:05:03.813 --> 01:05:07.395
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's been so helpful to have someone who's not me who shares the value.

01:05:07.455 --> 01:05:08.896
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and he's also really balanced.

01:05:08.936 --> 01:05:11.378
[SPEAKER_00]: So what I love about it is he's not against technology.

01:05:11.398 --> 01:05:12.199
[SPEAKER_00]: Not against iPhone.

01:05:12.239 --> 01:05:17.823
[SPEAKER_00]: He's all against what he's been against and We're actually what he's for is mitigating risk in your family.

01:05:17.843 --> 01:05:18.023
[SPEAKER_00]: Great.

01:05:18.503 --> 01:05:19.304
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like man.

01:05:19.985 --> 01:05:25.469
[SPEAKER_00]: How many times is your phone a risk to your family is the iPad that you decided to not put a passcode on or whatever.

01:05:26.069 --> 01:05:28.471
[SPEAKER_00]: So be aware, like you have a response, please, a father.

01:05:28.491 --> 01:05:33.474
[SPEAKER_00]: So, man, wherever you are in this journey, please be encouraged that there's hope.

01:05:34.014 --> 01:05:35.415
[SPEAKER_00]: Lust does not have to have the final say.

01:05:35.435 --> 01:05:36.876
[SPEAKER_00]: It does not have to rob you of your fatherhood.

01:05:37.556 --> 01:05:39.297
[SPEAKER_00]: And come back next week.

01:05:39.518 --> 01:05:40.698
[SPEAKER_00]: What's next on the list, Justin?

01:05:40.738 --> 01:05:41.079
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it?

01:05:41.119 --> 01:05:42.039
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's send the loudspeaker.

01:05:42.059 --> 01:05:43.340
[SPEAKER_00]: The loudspeaker says, let me, I know.

01:05:43.400 --> 01:05:44.781
[SPEAKER_00]: Another Santa Rover desire.

01:05:44.821 --> 01:05:45.461
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm over desire.

01:05:45.481 --> 01:05:47.122
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're going to be coming back talking about gluttony.

01:05:48.743 --> 01:05:51.705
[SPEAKER_00]: And thank you for hanging along with this journey.

01:05:51.725 --> 01:05:52.466
[SPEAKER_00]: I know this was a heavy,

01:05:53.026 --> 01:05:55.849
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a heavy back and forth, but I mean, honestly, it's real life.

01:05:56.069 --> 01:05:58.451
[SPEAKER_00]: We, I don't really, I'm not here for the soft stuff.

01:05:58.471 --> 01:05:59.432
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you think they're more important?

01:05:59.952 --> 01:06:01.093
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, let's not end on that soft stuff.

01:06:01.113 --> 01:06:02.795
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay, let's just come on, Ram.

01:06:03.415 --> 01:06:04.616
[SPEAKER_01]: I was taking it right at the end.

01:06:04.636 --> 01:06:05.637
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll see you next week.