WEBVTT 00:02.521 --> 00:05.303 [SPEAKER_00]: Hey and welcome back to the Christian Parenting podcast. 00:05.343 --> 00:06.744 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so glad that you're here today. 00:06.804 --> 00:12.787 [SPEAKER_00]: We are wrapping up our series on raising kids who develop a lasting faith that carries them into adulthood. 00:13.308 --> 00:15.389 [SPEAKER_00]: And I can't think of a better conversation to end on. 00:15.569 --> 00:17.050 [SPEAKER_00]: I am joined by Katherine Saunders. 00:17.090 --> 00:22.053 [SPEAKER_00]: She's a ministry leader, a speaker, and author of Having Spiritual Conversations with Your Kids. 00:22.513 --> 00:29.998 [SPEAKER_00]: Katherine has spent decades serving family through ministry in world vision and she shares really practical wisdom for helping parents move beyond lectures. 00:30.438 --> 00:35.760 [SPEAKER_00]: and into meaningful everyday conversations that help our kids know Jesus for themselves. 00:36.280 --> 00:45.003 [SPEAKER_00]: So if you've ever wondered how do I actually talk to my kids about faith without making an awkward or what if they ask questions that I can't answer, this episode is for you. 00:45.043 --> 00:46.143 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's dive in. 00:54.003 --> 00:56.444 [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, Katherine, welcome to the Christian Parenting Podcast. 00:56.684 --> 00:58.405 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, thanks for having me today. 00:58.625 --> 01:00.005 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm really excited to have you. 01:00.125 --> 01:08.189 [SPEAKER_00]: We are talking all about how we can have meaningful, spiritual conversations with our kids to help them grow closer to the Lord and closer to us. 01:08.289 --> 01:16.032 [SPEAKER_00]: And we are currently wrapping up a series on this podcast, kind of about how we can raise our kids to have a lasting faith of their own. 01:16.492 --> 01:17.313 [SPEAKER_01]: into adulthood. 01:17.333 --> 01:20.416 [SPEAKER_00]: So this is kind of the perfect wrapping it up conversation. 01:20.476 --> 01:21.737 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm happy you're here. 01:21.777 --> 01:22.598 [SPEAKER_00]: Can you tell us first? 01:22.958 --> 01:23.779 [SPEAKER_01]: Just tell us what yourself. 01:23.799 --> 01:24.539 [SPEAKER_01]: So we can get to know you. 01:24.740 --> 01:25.280 [SPEAKER_01]: I would love to. 01:25.300 --> 01:25.640 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you. 01:25.681 --> 01:30.805 [SPEAKER_01]: So I have been married to my sweetheart Craig for we've been together 35 years. 01:31.186 --> 01:36.410 [SPEAKER_01]: We have two grown children and they're both married and two grandchildren. 01:36.771 --> 01:37.391 [SPEAKER_01]: One is three. 01:37.431 --> 01:41.054 [SPEAKER_01]: We have a granddaughter who's three and that grandson who was just born is just two months old. 01:41.835 --> 01:42.915 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, congratulations. 01:43.255 --> 01:44.956 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, or madly in love, of course. 01:45.556 --> 01:50.557 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, but we live not far from the Olympic National Forest in the state of Washington. 01:50.577 --> 01:51.677 [SPEAKER_01]: So we're outdoorsy people. 01:51.717 --> 01:56.018 [SPEAKER_01]: We love to hike and kayak and, you know, do all those kinds of things outdoors. 01:56.318 --> 01:59.299 [SPEAKER_01]: My husband was a firefighter for about 35 years, which is kind of neat. 01:59.559 --> 02:00.319 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah. 02:00.399 --> 02:01.700 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, it's fun. 02:01.740 --> 02:03.780 [SPEAKER_01]: So I love being a mom and I love being a grandma. 02:03.840 --> 02:05.641 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm glad to be here today. 02:05.881 --> 02:08.081 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, I'm really happy to have you here. 02:08.101 --> 02:11.042 [SPEAKER_00]: Tell us a little bit about your ministry work that you have done. 02:11.962 --> 02:12.342 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 02:12.703 --> 02:13.023 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 02:13.063 --> 02:13.303 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 02:13.523 --> 02:18.146 [SPEAKER_01]: So I've been in ministry for about 30 years all together. 02:18.326 --> 02:32.015 [SPEAKER_01]: I worked for long time with habitat for humanity and I worked at a large church for about five years running their outreach and community development emissions and I've been at well vision for about almost 15 years now. 02:32.215 --> 02:35.777 [SPEAKER_01]: But all throughout those experiences I was working with families. 02:40.380 --> 03:06.092 [SPEAKER_01]: Over and over again over the last 30 years what I hear from parents is how do we engage our kids in our faith and our values, you know, and so it's just been fun to learn from them and to try some things with them and experiment and of course as a mom, you know, we were always trying our best and probably failed or that we succeeded but we're always trying our best as parents to find ways to engage our kids in our faith that would be meaningful to them. 03:06.112 --> 03:09.233 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, it's been I've been a ministry for a long time. 03:09.513 --> 03:10.633 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's so amazing. 03:10.694 --> 03:12.454 [SPEAKER_00]: And so many different types of minister which I love. 03:12.734 --> 03:13.875 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, that's really fun. 03:14.475 --> 03:15.796 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it is a deal of parents. 03:16.516 --> 03:16.976 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right. 03:17.256 --> 03:17.716 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right. 03:17.877 --> 03:18.637 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah. 03:18.857 --> 03:19.457 [SPEAKER_01]: It's been great. 03:19.677 --> 03:19.937 [SPEAKER_00]: Good. 03:20.117 --> 03:27.521 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I love that you kind of acknowledged right away that feeling that so many of us have, which is like, I want to talk about faith with my kids. 03:27.641 --> 03:31.542 [SPEAKER_00]: I want them to make faith their own, but I don't really know when or how. 03:31.562 --> 03:33.563 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, there's a struggle with those conversations. 03:33.583 --> 03:37.805 [SPEAKER_00]: I think many parents just feel genuinely unacquipped to be having them. 03:38.085 --> 03:51.200 [SPEAKER_00]: But what I found interesting was from some of your research is that even the younger generations are looking for different types of conversations, like more unfiltered, unlikely conversations rather than big talks or a lecture. 03:51.260 --> 03:57.086 [SPEAKER_00]: So first, I guess first tell us a little bit more about what they're looking for and then we'll get into how to lead to that. 03:57.807 --> 03:58.728 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, definitely. 03:58.748 --> 04:03.454 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I have a doctorate in leadership and spiritual formation. 04:03.694 --> 04:08.059 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was because I've worked at World Vision for a long time, I work in philanthropy. 04:08.079 --> 04:11.222 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I was really curious about next generation giving. 04:11.623 --> 04:13.845 [SPEAKER_01]: So I was studying next gen. Philanthropy. 04:13.865 --> 04:15.607 [SPEAKER_01]: So in the process of doing that, I 04:16.368 --> 04:21.494 [SPEAKER_01]: was looking at millennials, Gen Z, a little bit of alpha, but mostly Gen Z and millennials. 04:21.715 --> 04:30.766 [SPEAKER_01]: And interestingly, to me, the research aligned almost perfectly with what I was actually seeing in ministry and really in my own family. 04:31.187 --> 04:35.172 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, with previous generations, we just trusted our authority figures. 04:35.932 --> 04:49.521 [SPEAKER_01]: There you have a pastor a parent or somebody or a leader tell you what to believe or what to do or how it was and we just did what we just believed it because they said it but you know Of course this generation has had access to so much more information. 04:49.581 --> 04:56.606 [SPEAKER_01]: They've been on the internet most of their lives if not all and and they've kind of learned a question everything 04:57.386 --> 04:59.427 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's not necessarily a bad thing. 04:59.467 --> 05:06.988 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they're more global thinkers, but what it's done is it's made them kind of question, what's true? 05:07.068 --> 05:09.329 [SPEAKER_01]: What's real who can be trusted? 05:09.669 --> 05:13.050 [SPEAKER_01]: Truth is there's such a thing as truth, that kind of thing. 05:13.610 --> 05:21.012 [SPEAKER_01]: And so what I found in the research was that kids are not, these, I say kids, but it's even on the younger millennial side. 05:21.752 --> 05:42.104 [SPEAKER_01]: They're not looking for a monologue, what they're looking for is a dialogue, and they want those conversations with their parents, with spiritual leaders, with other leaders, but they're looking for an honest kind of unfiltered conversation, where it's okay, and it's a safe space for them to wrestle through things or ask questions, or even push back. 05:43.104 --> 05:45.566 [SPEAKER_01]: And with adults who are willing to say, you know what? 05:45.766 --> 05:46.746 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a great question. 05:46.886 --> 05:47.427 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. 05:47.547 --> 05:52.549 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have it all figured out, but let's wrestle through that together and work through and find the answers together. 05:52.729 --> 05:57.191 [SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, it was fascinating to think about that. 05:57.451 --> 06:00.892 [SPEAKER_01]: And then to think about that, that I've seen that over and over with families. 06:00.972 --> 06:05.194 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's kind of, that's kind of what was the impetus for this book? 06:05.374 --> 06:07.575 [SPEAKER_01]: Is family's asking me, will then what do I do? 06:07.595 --> 06:08.175 [SPEAKER_01]: How do I? 06:08.675 --> 06:10.736 [SPEAKER_01]: starting aging my kids in those conversations. 06:10.876 --> 06:15.258 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know where to begin or they're afraid, which is understandable. 06:15.278 --> 06:21.240 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, you know, what if what if they disagree with me or what if they ask a question and I don't have the answer. 06:21.280 --> 06:25.341 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think sometimes because we're fearful of that, we just don't bring it up. 06:26.342 --> 06:26.562 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 06:26.602 --> 06:31.224 [SPEAKER_01]: And we sort of hope that if we kind of live out our faith in front of our kids or have 06:32.243 --> 06:48.500 [SPEAKER_01]: them sort of join us in our faith that of course they will follow suit but the research like especially the Barnary search shows that's just not always the case about half of kids will walk away from their faith when they leave home and that process kind of starts around age 15. 06:49.201 --> 07:09.315 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, the idea is if you can start having his conversations well, they're still at home, especially and create a space where it's not so much just giving a lecture at talk or, you know, that kind of thing, but more just asking really good questions to start and listening well with an open heart to get a sense of what they're thinking or things they might be wrestling with. 07:09.515 --> 07:14.399 [SPEAKER_01]: Then you can kind of, I think it, I think that could make a huge impact before they leave. 07:14.639 --> 07:22.841 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I want, I'm curious to know what that can look like because I think so many people listening are like, but it's so much easier to be like, all right, kids, sit down. 07:23.141 --> 07:24.702 [SPEAKER_00]: This is what we believe and why. 07:24.922 --> 07:29.763 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is what you're going to believe, you know, like, it's easier to do the lecture. 07:29.983 --> 07:33.444 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's harder to bring in to dialogue and I think there's a lot of fear in there. 07:33.744 --> 07:38.345 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of intimidation, but how do we structure those conversations with our kids? 07:38.605 --> 07:39.885 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a great question. 07:40.105 --> 07:41.886 [SPEAKER_01]: And those are natural fears. 07:41.946 --> 07:44.846 [SPEAKER_01]: And it fears that I think a lot of parents have. 07:44.886 --> 07:46.087 [SPEAKER_01]: And I had some of those. 07:46.127 --> 07:48.327 [SPEAKER_01]: We had some of those with our kids when they were growing up. 07:48.687 --> 07:59.450 [SPEAKER_01]: I think we think in our minds that it has to be that spiritual formation has to be this formal sort of rigid, really spiritual looking sit down thing. 07:59.710 --> 08:01.410 [SPEAKER_01]: But that's not actually the case. 08:01.450 --> 08:06.211 [SPEAKER_01]: What I have found is that those conversations can happen 08:08.812 --> 08:27.198 [SPEAKER_01]: every day ordinary in your ordinary life with your kids, whether it's in the car or over dinner or in a some families of shared with me they go for the kind of have created as part we can talk later if you want to about real of life but as part of their family real of life they go for walk after dinner. 08:27.878 --> 08:36.264 [SPEAKER_01]: And they're able to have those conversations in this space that doesn't feel rigid or kind of make anybody nervous or whatever. 08:36.384 --> 08:43.970 [SPEAKER_01]: And just the best conversations and coming up in a lot of times, they're just to listen through really good questions. 08:44.050 --> 08:45.271 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's part of what's in the book. 08:45.311 --> 08:46.812 [SPEAKER_01]: I have a whole bunch of questions in there. 08:47.192 --> 08:52.916 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, tied to each, each Benedictine practice just to get a conversation going and ask your kids. 08:56.739 --> 08:58.680 [SPEAKER_01]: what they're what they're really thinking. 08:59.060 --> 09:04.103 [SPEAKER_01]: We're also missing a chance for deeper intimacy with them to better know kind of what's on their hearts. 09:04.383 --> 09:19.050 [SPEAKER_01]: And and for them to better know us, I mean, I will say some of that comes from I think as parents of fear of being vulnerable ourselves, you know, that if if we become vulnerable, I'll share a story with you in a second. 09:19.331 --> 09:24.873 [SPEAKER_01]: Does that somehow take away our authority or will we seem we can some way to them or 09:25.974 --> 09:37.941 [SPEAKER_01]: they can't count on, but the truth is actually doing so opens the door for them to be more vulnerable with us and share things that are going on with them and it does create deeper intimacy. 09:38.381 --> 09:42.763 [SPEAKER_01]: There was a family that I worked with that kind of had gone through some of these. 09:43.003 --> 09:45.505 [SPEAKER_01]: We tested out some of this stuff, you know, before I wrote the book. 09:46.185 --> 09:46.986 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was a mom and dad. 09:47.006 --> 09:47.827 [SPEAKER_01]: They had three kids. 09:47.907 --> 09:49.088 [SPEAKER_01]: All three were teenagers. 09:49.389 --> 09:50.190 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't remember the ages. 09:50.830 --> 09:57.117 [SPEAKER_01]: And they had made a practice at the dinner table of just having, they would have a question. 09:57.177 --> 10:00.361 [SPEAKER_01]: And then everybody could go around and share and then they'd have a conversation about it. 10:00.701 --> 10:07.429 [SPEAKER_01]: And so one night, the mom decided to share something vulnerable that she had never told her kids that had happened when she was in high school. 10:07.789 --> 10:12.074 [SPEAKER_01]: and it was appropriate but it was she'd never told them they had no idea. 10:12.454 --> 10:18.040 [SPEAKER_01]: And so she shared this and she became kind of teary as she was sharing it. 10:18.320 --> 10:28.471 [SPEAKER_01]: And the dad was the one I talked to and he said it was just amazing like by the end of that conversation all five of them are crying and the three all three teenagers. 10:28.671 --> 10:33.753 [SPEAKER_01]: ended up sharing things they had never told the parents that they didn't even know those things were going on. 10:33.953 --> 10:50.141 [SPEAKER_01]: And so if them to me, if the mom had not allowed herself to kind of, you know, we talk about humility and the book as a parent to kind of open that door and share something personal, those those other things that the kids shared may not have ever happened. 10:50.621 --> 10:56.948 [SPEAKER_01]: So I know it's scary and we sometimes we tend to at least on the early end of things. 10:56.968 --> 11:00.052 [SPEAKER_01]: Just said, I mean, these are all good things the parent question parents are doing. 11:00.092 --> 11:01.193 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we take our kids a chance. 11:01.213 --> 11:01.954 [SPEAKER_01]: We read scripture. 11:01.974 --> 11:02.574 [SPEAKER_01]: We pray with them. 11:02.594 --> 11:03.195 [SPEAKER_01]: We do all this. 11:03.736 --> 11:04.737 [SPEAKER_01]: And we shouldn't do those things. 11:05.097 --> 11:11.544 [SPEAKER_01]: But again, I think we just assume if we do those things, the kid is thinking, oh, yeah, I agree with all of that. 11:12.225 --> 11:15.629 [SPEAKER_01]: But we're kind of afraid to ask like, what do you think about that? 11:16.030 --> 11:30.828 [SPEAKER_01]: And then sometimes I think kids have questions in there and they we don't even know they're wondering about any of that, you know, so yeah, anyway, yeah, no, I love this idea that you have to approach your kids with curiosity and humility. 11:31.148 --> 11:38.375 [SPEAKER_00]: in order for them to respond to you and be able to have honest conversations and to be able to disciple them especially as they get into those teenage years. 11:38.756 --> 11:40.698 [SPEAKER_00]: You have to relate to them differently. 11:40.758 --> 11:50.848 [SPEAKER_00]: So what are some of like the questions we can ask or the practices we can do as a family that can help foster some of this curiosity and humility in all those things? 11:51.108 --> 11:51.408 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 11:51.728 --> 11:55.270 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the way that I approached the questions in the book is to the practices. 11:55.310 --> 12:03.193 [SPEAKER_01]: So the book has ten Benedictine practices and these are ancient practices aligned with if you look at the book of Acts. 12:03.253 --> 12:05.014 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, this is all about Jesus. 12:05.034 --> 12:10.477 [SPEAKER_01]: That's how how Jesus lived out his life while he he was on earth and the things that he teaches. 12:10.557 --> 12:17.380 [SPEAKER_01]: And so the Benedictine practices or I should say the Benedictine role of life, which is made up of there's a lot of Benedictine practices. 12:17.420 --> 12:17.600 [SPEAKER_01]: So I 12:20.762 --> 12:25.284 [SPEAKER_01]: really really well the family life, but they're about living and healthy Christ center community. 12:26.604 --> 12:30.685 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's really what our families are, as we are in community with one another. 12:30.825 --> 12:33.526 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's why I think they align so beautifully. 12:33.566 --> 12:45.268 [SPEAKER_01]: But as I go through the practices in the book, which gives families, first you learn about the practice, and then you get a chance to do a hands-on activity with your kids and they're simple, really simple, like just fun activities. 12:45.329 --> 12:52.570 [SPEAKER_01]: But as you're sort of doing those activities, then there's questions tied to those about what did they think about that? 12:52.610 --> 12:53.830 [SPEAKER_01]: What was hard about that? 12:56.371 --> 13:16.751 [SPEAKER_01]: But sometimes it's just simple car conversations like, you know, there's some kids that just don't do well with a face to face conversation, if it feels scary to them or whatever, but you can do it side by side, you know, here in the car, they're in the backseat or something, you know, what was something that was hard today or what was something that brought you joy today or 13:17.452 --> 13:23.697 [SPEAKER_01]: Did, you know, did you notice, and have you ever noticed in the other kid at school that seems to sit by themselves? 13:23.757 --> 13:28.781 [SPEAKER_01]: Or, you know, they don't have to start as what appears to be a spiritual conversation. 13:29.101 --> 13:33.004 [SPEAKER_01]: But if you're intentional about it, you can lead in that direction. 13:33.024 --> 13:36.466 [SPEAKER_01]: And once they start to answer, you'll get a sense of what they're thinking. 13:36.647 --> 13:40.449 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I've heard parents ask once they kind of get into a conversation. 13:40.469 --> 13:41.851 [SPEAKER_01]: Gosh, you know, if, 13:42.611 --> 13:48.894 [SPEAKER_01]: we know God is with us all the time, but to ask, you know, what do you think of God with standing there if Jesus was standing there? 13:49.254 --> 13:52.696 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, what do you think that he would have thought of that situation? 13:52.756 --> 13:55.498 [SPEAKER_01]: Just to get a sense of what are they actually thinking? 13:55.758 --> 13:55.998 [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm. 13:56.318 --> 13:57.639 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's interesting. 13:57.759 --> 14:06.183 [SPEAKER_00]: I think I, so many of the ideas that you bring up, I think are so, so good, and so important for parents to be paying attention to, and another one that I really 14:06.603 --> 14:13.229 [SPEAKER_00]: think is interesting is the distinction between kids who are apprentice to Jesus or apprentice to their parents. 14:13.829 --> 14:16.672 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's an interesting distinction. 14:16.772 --> 14:23.858 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's unpack that a little bit, but I feel like it's really easy as parents to apprentice our kids to ourselves. 14:25.111 --> 14:26.632 [SPEAKER_00]: because yeah, that was a convoluted year. 14:26.852 --> 14:38.341 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we all had these moments as parents, but for me, that was an outchew, it's like, I don't know, I had never, something happened, it made me realize this, and I started thinking about that with more intention. 14:38.681 --> 14:42.744 [SPEAKER_01]: So this distinction kind of came out, I write about it in the book, but it kind of came out of my own parenting. 14:44.465 --> 14:45.005 [SPEAKER_01]: Usually does. 14:46.366 --> 14:53.732 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't you think that some of the, I feel like Craig and I have talked about the best lessons we have learned the most powerful came from our kids. 14:54.868 --> 15:02.671 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, I think sometimes we think we're the ones that are, you know, teaching them everything, but really every single day they're to end out with grandkids. 15:02.711 --> 15:04.331 [SPEAKER_01]: They're teaching us something. 15:04.391 --> 15:11.794 [SPEAKER_01]: So I've realized at a certain point that without meaning to I didn't intend to, but I was apprenticing them to me. 15:12.154 --> 15:18.957 [SPEAKER_01]: So in other words, all of a sudden, I had to ask myself, am I trying to make my children into my image or gods? 15:19.137 --> 15:20.898 [SPEAKER_01]: I had to say good, good hard look at myself. 15:20.978 --> 15:31.063 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, being a apprentice to Jesus means they're learning to listen to his voice, to recognize his presence, to become people of love and humility and grace, not just 15:31.483 --> 15:36.404 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, well-behaved kids who are following my rules, who I can be proud of, that was another thing. 15:36.464 --> 15:40.646 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I really just kind of had to examine my heart in that. 15:40.846 --> 15:42.286 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was a wake-up call for me. 15:42.306 --> 15:46.667 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, was I pointing them to Jesus or was I pointing them to myself. 15:47.008 --> 15:49.408 [SPEAKER_01]: And now looking back, even now is a grandparent. 15:49.748 --> 15:51.689 [SPEAKER_01]: If you think about it, it's actually really freeing. 15:51.749 --> 15:55.010 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, thank goodness, we can apprentice them to Jesus and not us, you know. 15:55.871 --> 16:01.393 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because I see that that my role was never to be the center. 16:01.593 --> 16:04.454 [SPEAKER_01]: It was to point them to the one who is the center. 16:04.795 --> 16:14.739 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, so then it kind of ties into what we're talking about with kind of not being afraid or trying not to be afraid to open those doors to deeper, more intimate conversation. 16:14.759 --> 16:18.140 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's, you know, less about control and more about curiosity. 16:18.500 --> 16:28.766 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, more about helping our kids notice, and I talk about this in the book, there's a practice on mindfulness that is not kind of what we think of in the modern-day version of mindfulness. 16:28.866 --> 16:33.108 [SPEAKER_01]: It's about the realization that God is with us all day, every day. 16:33.268 --> 16:37.231 [SPEAKER_01]: He's present with us in the good times and bad, you know, all of the time he's with us. 16:37.671 --> 16:41.993 [SPEAKER_01]: And so helping our kids notice where God's already at work in their lives, in the 16:43.414 --> 16:52.638 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, so yeah, I mean at the end of the day, I don't actually want my kids to be more like me, Lord help us if that's because my hair is just that they're more or like Jesus. 16:52.658 --> 16:56.840 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's humbling, but I have to say the idea that fills me with a lot of hope. 16:56.981 --> 16:57.261 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 16:57.341 --> 17:03.704 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's a lot of pressure for us supposed to make our kids be exactly like us because there's a lot of pressure then for us to be perfect. 17:04.424 --> 17:07.126 [SPEAKER_00]: And the last thing we're not that we can be is perfect. 17:07.247 --> 17:09.689 [SPEAKER_00]: And we don't want our kids to think that we're perfect either. 17:09.849 --> 17:14.472 [SPEAKER_00]: Like that's a hard moment when you realize that your parents make mistakes. 17:14.533 --> 17:16.714 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it is a moment. 17:17.015 --> 17:20.397 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but I think that that's kind of the whole idea of this. 17:20.477 --> 17:24.461 [SPEAKER_01]: Can we allow ourselves to be vulnerable and to show our kids? 17:24.821 --> 17:26.262 [SPEAKER_01]: Gosh, I don't know. 17:26.342 --> 17:27.503 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have all the answers. 17:27.543 --> 17:28.884 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's explore that together. 17:28.904 --> 17:30.326 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, what's better than that? 17:30.346 --> 17:32.387 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I remember our son went through. 17:33.568 --> 17:34.970 [SPEAKER_01]: all kinds of crazy questions. 17:35.050 --> 17:42.978 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure you're due to everyone, you know, but at one point, he and most a lot of times I had no idea, you know, I didn't have the answer. 17:43.219 --> 17:48.564 [SPEAKER_01]: So at one point, I think he asked me the difference between the soul and the self, his teenager. 17:49.525 --> 17:52.990 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know, you know, so I said, well, such a good question. 17:53.030 --> 17:53.711 [SPEAKER_01]: I have no idea. 17:53.771 --> 17:54.332 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's go. 17:54.352 --> 17:55.414 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was kind of fun. 17:55.434 --> 18:00.621 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think we asked our pastor and we, my kids went to a little Christmas school, but there was a teacher that he really liked. 18:00.681 --> 18:01.623 [SPEAKER_01]: I think he asked her. 18:02.284 --> 18:05.528 [SPEAKER_01]: And we kind of looked in a variety of sources, actually. 18:05.548 --> 18:05.929 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 18:06.149 --> 18:24.324 [SPEAKER_01]: And we kind of came to the conclusion that we weren't going to really actually find the answer, but it was fun exploring together and we decided that we could be comfortable with the some mysteries of God that there are some things that we may never know, that we may know what we get to have in, but that that was okay. 18:24.464 --> 18:24.925 [SPEAKER_01]: And it just 18:25.485 --> 18:28.847 [SPEAKER_01]: that willingness to say, and I'm not saying did this all the time. 18:28.907 --> 18:30.868 [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of times, I was just saying, this is the way it is. 18:31.148 --> 18:35.310 [SPEAKER_01]: But that willingness to that instance to say, gosh, that's a real great question. 18:35.630 --> 18:41.514 [SPEAKER_01]: It was such a, it was bonding for us to press to both say, gosh, we don't know. 18:41.594 --> 18:45.956 [SPEAKER_01]: And for him to see from an adult that he trusted that we don't have all the answers. 18:46.236 --> 18:51.439 [SPEAKER_01]: And so if someone is telling you how they have all the answers, they may not be entirely truthful. 18:52.248 --> 18:52.488 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 18:53.049 --> 19:00.077 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, I think part of becoming mature in your faith is realizing that there are some mysteries that we're just not going to know this side of heaven. 19:00.797 --> 19:03.220 [SPEAKER_00]: And that can be really, really hard for some people. 19:03.360 --> 19:13.051 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's a gift to give your kids to help them start to discover that with you in a safe place at a young age instead of getting off to college and being like, I don't, I don't know. 19:13.071 --> 19:13.912 [SPEAKER_00]: And now I don't know to do. 19:15.222 --> 19:15.482 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 19:15.542 --> 19:22.547 [SPEAKER_01]: And then, of course, when they're off to college, they are going to get the answers from someone else, like, you know, which could be good or not, or really not good. 19:23.027 --> 19:29.671 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, if you can have some of those conversations with them while they're still at home, but mostly just modeling the modeling and. 19:30.672 --> 19:36.795 [SPEAKER_01]: of humility and that it's okay as an adult to not have the answers and actually that's a good thing. 19:36.835 --> 19:42.118 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, God is not upset with us when we, you know, have questions about things. 19:42.238 --> 19:45.840 [SPEAKER_01]: He loves for us to be with him and want to learn from him and hear from him. 19:45.900 --> 19:50.263 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I think I see it is now, of course, I have some, you know, road behind me. 19:50.283 --> 19:54.705 [SPEAKER_01]: But now I see this more as an opportunity than anything else. 19:54.885 --> 19:57.567 [SPEAKER_01]: But I do have to say, I understand the heart behind it. 19:57.847 --> 19:58.988 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just scary as a parent. 19:59.008 --> 20:01.270 [SPEAKER_01]: Because you're, you know, we are called to parent our kids. 20:01.330 --> 20:05.854 [SPEAKER_01]: We need to have boundaries and protect them and teach them that that is our role. 20:05.874 --> 20:07.935 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm not disagreeing with that. 20:08.255 --> 20:14.720 [SPEAKER_01]: I've had some parents question like obedience, you know, kind of like, it is our role to guide and direct our children. 20:15.121 --> 20:22.026 [SPEAKER_01]: But within that, I think it's okay to show your vulnerability and to show that you're a real human being to you. 20:24.788 --> 20:32.473 [SPEAKER_01]: and it teaches what what a responsible Christian adult looks like that we too don't have the answers and we too can be vulnerable. 20:32.673 --> 20:51.583 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah well I think if even taking spirituality out of that I think that's a really good lesson for our kids just in life in general that everyone no one's an expert in anything but everyone is really good at something and so the more people we can surround ourselves with with everything like spiritual or not of you might not know how to fix things 20:54.485 --> 20:57.746 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, or like, hey, your mom may not have the answer, but your pastor may. 20:57.866 --> 21:02.147 [SPEAKER_00]: And so you can go talk to that person because we're all given different gifts for a reason. 21:02.608 --> 21:03.708 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's how we need community. 21:03.728 --> 21:07.829 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that alone is a good thing to be teaching our kids that they don't have to do it all. 21:08.129 --> 21:13.251 [SPEAKER_00]: Especially in today's day and age, when they're looking at social media and think that everybody is perfect at everything all the time. 21:13.411 --> 21:14.212 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely. 21:14.632 --> 21:16.773 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and even as parents, we do that. 21:16.994 --> 21:18.375 [SPEAKER_01]: And people, and it's just not real. 21:18.395 --> 21:22.317 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's just curated lives that you're seeing these families that look perfect. 21:22.437 --> 21:23.318 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's not real. 21:23.518 --> 21:26.000 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I think that's really important. 21:26.160 --> 21:26.400 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 21:27.021 --> 21:30.343 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm curious kind of to start wrapping up a little bit. 21:30.363 --> 21:40.090 [SPEAKER_00]: Like when you work with families across generations, like even into the end of life to like different seasons, like when you look at families whose kids have continued 21:43.112 --> 21:50.656 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you see any patterns or have you heard of any family saying they wish they had done something differently and like what do you see when you kind of look back a little bit? 21:50.837 --> 22:10.988 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I will say to a certain extent, we can't control the sometimes treacherous path that leads our children to Jesus as adults, you know, kids especially they become younger adults a little bit have to likely did have their own experience of what does that look like and wrestling and wondering and learning. 22:11.188 --> 22:20.634 [SPEAKER_01]: But I will say that after all these years of ministry, the thing I have seen happen where it kind of sticks and the kids often their faith looks a little different. 22:20.894 --> 22:22.115 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's a good thing. 22:22.315 --> 22:24.757 [SPEAKER_01]: Then the parents, it doesn't look like a carbon copy. 22:24.817 --> 22:25.998 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I see this all the time. 22:26.058 --> 22:27.639 [SPEAKER_01]: It's very strong faith. 22:27.879 --> 22:32.542 [SPEAKER_01]: And actually, some of that next Jan, I just think, oh, I want to be more like them, you know? 22:32.862 --> 22:39.106 [SPEAKER_01]: But the kind of the thing that makes a difference is going with your kids on that journey 22:40.687 --> 22:54.314 [SPEAKER_01]: of finding a faith that is their own, that doesn't mean it's some other thing, but it's allowing them as we've talked about here to asking great questions, listening and not just listening. 22:54.414 --> 23:02.858 [SPEAKER_01]: I think sometimes as parents we listen and we're formulating the next thing we're going to say because we know what are, I mean, I share a funny story at the beginning of the look of my daughter with her teddy bear. 23:03.058 --> 23:04.799 [SPEAKER_01]: I can tell if you want, but you'll see it. 23:06.500 --> 23:15.164 [SPEAKER_01]: She, so she, she had the white fur teddy bear, but somebody gave her when she was born and she later named him Sammy and that bear went everywhere. 23:15.264 --> 23:18.486 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think until at least until the end of first grade literally, every wish went. 23:18.706 --> 23:22.728 [SPEAKER_01]: And the poor bear, you know, like most of the animals, he was traumatized. 23:22.808 --> 23:26.469 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm multiple kids, but you've been run over by cars and all kinds of things. 23:26.870 --> 23:31.512 [SPEAKER_01]: But at one point, she had thrown up on Sammy and so I had watched him and I 23:34.173 --> 23:36.035 [SPEAKER_01]: So no, yes, it was bad. 23:36.255 --> 23:37.476 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm married to a firefighter. 23:37.496 --> 23:40.058 [SPEAKER_01]: He got the flames put out, but his whole back of his head was charted black. 23:40.438 --> 23:44.041 [SPEAKER_01]: So after comforting her because of course, her bare had been severely traumatized. 23:44.402 --> 23:47.304 [SPEAKER_01]: I said, well, we're going to need to go to the fabric store and do some brain surgery. 23:47.524 --> 23:48.986 [SPEAKER_01]: So we went to the fabric store. 23:49.366 --> 23:52.168 [SPEAKER_01]: And for some reason, normally, I would have just bought white fur, of course. 23:52.509 --> 23:53.930 [SPEAKER_01]: But I said, 23:54.210 --> 23:55.411 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, what kind of average do you want? 23:55.611 --> 24:01.295 [SPEAKER_01]: The child shows hot pink, flannel butterfly fabric for the back of this white fur bear's head. 24:01.515 --> 24:04.177 [SPEAKER_01]: And I thought, that is fascinating. 24:04.557 --> 24:07.099 [SPEAKER_01]: And I asked her, well, why'd you choose that fabric? 24:07.119 --> 24:08.040 [SPEAKER_01]: That's really interesting. 24:08.140 --> 24:10.842 [SPEAKER_01]: And she said, because God makes us colorful. 24:11.142 --> 24:12.543 [SPEAKER_01]: That was the best answer I had. 24:12.563 --> 24:13.784 [SPEAKER_01]: So many more questions for her. 24:14.164 --> 24:16.405 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, she was four or five or something. 24:16.725 --> 24:18.626 [SPEAKER_01]: And I just that was for me. 24:18.827 --> 24:19.687 [SPEAKER_01]: That was a big learning. 24:19.727 --> 24:21.208 [SPEAKER_01]: There is a parent for me. 24:21.528 --> 24:21.968 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 24:22.209 --> 24:23.629 [SPEAKER_01]: I was listening to her. 24:23.809 --> 24:26.551 [SPEAKER_01]: Not just what she wanted, but why she chose that. 24:27.111 --> 24:32.775 [SPEAKER_01]: And I realized God has created her in such a unique way that's so different from me. 24:33.295 --> 24:34.836 [SPEAKER_01]: how she thinks is different for me. 24:34.896 --> 24:35.797 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's a great thing. 24:35.837 --> 24:37.799 [SPEAKER_01]: I just learned an incredible thing from my child. 24:38.299 --> 24:45.986 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, so the idea that each child is uniquely made and created for a purpose by God. 24:46.126 --> 24:52.091 [SPEAKER_01]: And yes, we are, they have been put in our care and we are to guide and nurture and care for them and lead them. 24:52.772 --> 25:03.816 [SPEAKER_01]: But they have things they can teach us as we talked about on the top of the call and so, you know, when you ask about, you know, things where I've seen it make a difference and it sort of stick. 25:03.916 --> 25:07.717 [SPEAKER_01]: It's where parents have approached their kids with a little bit more of them. 25:08.637 --> 25:18.841 [SPEAKER_01]: open mind and help them just really as a guide and a listener with an open heart, sort of a wrestle through and find a faith that is their own. 25:18.941 --> 25:26.344 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a firm foundation when they leave home because when they do that, you know, then they can also articulate their faith better. 25:26.524 --> 25:28.045 [SPEAKER_01]: If they've had a chance to wrestle through it, 25:28.365 --> 25:34.507 [SPEAKER_01]: they can defend their faith better if it's their own and it's not just something they've joined us in if that makes sense. 25:34.747 --> 25:36.148 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 25:36.648 --> 25:46.812 [SPEAKER_00]: So if families that are listening could do just like commit to like one simple thing this week to help cultivate like a deeper faith, help their kids make it their own. 25:46.832 --> 25:49.913 [SPEAKER_00]: Like what's like one thing that they could do tomorrow or today. 25:50.113 --> 26:07.211 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, today I would say I would say start practicing humility think of something maybe that two things a question you can ask your kids that's an open ended question a deeper question tied to a story you can share about yourself. 26:08.172 --> 26:24.731 [SPEAKER_01]: So something maybe you've never shared with your child like a struggle, something happen in high school or something that hurt you or something that you have maybe been a little this appropriate but maybe you have felt a little bit like somehow you're afraid to share that with your children. 26:25.151 --> 26:50.833 [SPEAKER_01]: share it and then and then you know think of a question tied to that it teaches them humility it shows that you have humility it shows that you're not perfect and you're willing to say I'm not perfect and that what that does is it frees them up and it opens the door to deeper conversations which at the end of the day you know if you're boiling this down to a nutshell that's what we want it's deeper more intimate conversations with our kids on all kinds of things not just spirituality 26:53.355 --> 26:54.236 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I love that. 26:54.256 --> 26:55.478 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to do that with my kids this week. 26:55.498 --> 26:55.798 [SPEAKER_00]: One at a time. 26:55.818 --> 26:56.339 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to do it. 26:56.359 --> 26:56.960 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, everything up great. 26:56.980 --> 26:58.322 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for sharing with us and for being here. 26:58.342 --> 27:00.665 [SPEAKER_00]: Can you tell us where we can connect with you and where we can get a copy of your book. 27:00.725 --> 27:02.107 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll link it all and show notes too. 27:02.127 --> 27:02.567 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely. 27:02.587 --> 27:09.637 [SPEAKER_00]: So I have a, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, 27:09.897 --> 27:15.580 [SPEAKER_01]: website and it's ripplenow.org, which is about making a ripple with our kids in the world. 27:15.600 --> 27:18.282 [SPEAKER_01]: So ripplenow.org, how you can learn more about me. 27:18.342 --> 27:21.483 [SPEAKER_01]: You can connect with me, I speak at churches, and I do little workshops. 27:21.564 --> 27:27.747 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking about maybe putting free virtual workshops together for families to help them create a family rule of life together. 27:27.767 --> 27:28.567 [SPEAKER_01]: I love doing that. 27:28.587 --> 27:29.388 [SPEAKER_01]: That's fun for me. 27:30.068 --> 27:31.889 [SPEAKER_01]: And then my my book is available. 27:31.969 --> 27:34.049 [SPEAKER_01]: It launches today, which is really exciting. 27:34.109 --> 27:35.190 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's available everywhere. 27:35.410 --> 27:36.190 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, everywhere. 27:36.370 --> 27:37.090 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much. 27:37.390 --> 27:38.290 [SPEAKER_01]: Everywhere puts your soul. 27:38.310 --> 27:40.711 [SPEAKER_01]: So I mean, you go Amazon's easy free shipping. 27:40.871 --> 27:45.252 [SPEAKER_01]: So you can go to Amazon and there's also an audible version of the book. 27:45.292 --> 27:45.812 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, girl. 27:46.073 --> 27:51.294 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it's called having spiritual conversations with your kids, simple practices for deepening your faith together. 27:51.474 --> 27:52.114 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, perfect. 27:52.194 --> 27:53.314 [SPEAKER_00]: I will get everything linked. 27:53.655 --> 27:54.955 [SPEAKER_00]: Some people can find it easily. 27:55.055 --> 27:56.375 [SPEAKER_00]: And thank you again for being here. 27:56.435 --> 27:57.956 [SPEAKER_00]: I just really appreciate your insight. 27:58.876 --> 28:02.059 [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of people will be really encouraged by what you had to say, so thank you. 28:02.159 --> 28:02.720 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I'm good. 28:02.740 --> 28:03.401 [SPEAKER_01]: It was a blessing. 28:03.441 --> 28:04.181 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for having me. 28:04.442 --> 28:04.602 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 28:07.818 --> 28:09.799 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for joining me today. 28:09.859 --> 28:15.860 [SPEAKER_00]: I hope that this episode encourages you to lean into honest, graceful conversations with your kids this week. 28:16.200 --> 28:17.421 [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to have all the answers. 28:17.481 --> 28:20.822 [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, you're willingness to be curious and humble and present. 28:20.962 --> 28:25.243 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe one of the greatest gifts that you can give your kids as they develop a faith of their own. 28:25.723 --> 28:32.965 [SPEAKER_00]: So make sure you go check out Katherine's new book, having spiritual conversations with your kids, and connect with her through the links I have in today's show notes. 28:33.445 --> 28:39.787 [SPEAKER_00]: If this episode encouraged you, I'd love for you to share with a friend, leave a review, or subscribe so you don't miss any future conversations. 28:40.187 --> 28:47.949 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you again for listening, may God bless you this week, may you be filled with confidence that you are enough through him. 28:48.229 --> 28:53.250 [SPEAKER_00]: He chose you to be the parents of your children and you are doing a great job.