WEBVTT 00:15.036 --> 00:16.797 [SPEAKER_00]: Hi, and welcome to the Working Songwriter. 00:17.057 --> 00:19.737 [SPEAKER_00]: The show where today's best songwriters come to talk shop. 00:20.278 --> 00:21.738 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm your host, Joe Pug. 00:22.398 --> 00:32.521 [SPEAKER_00]: Each episode here, we host a distinguished guest, and we ask them to go deep on their inspiration, on their process, on the general ups and downs of making a life in music. 00:32.861 --> 00:35.222 [SPEAKER_00]: So, whether you're a grizzled veteran, 00:35.922 --> 00:44.187 [SPEAKER_00]: selling your analog distortion pedal collection on reverb or else, a scrappy upstart, saving up for your very first big moth. 00:44.848 --> 00:52.613 [SPEAKER_00]: This is your show, because ultimately, it is what every writer seeks most, and ironclot excuse to put off, actually writing. 01:07.295 --> 01:22.444 [SPEAKER_00]: Hey everyone it's the third Friday of September 2026 and I thank you for joining us this week show is brought to you by bandsugle, built by musicians and four musicians, bandsugle is in all in one platform to build a beautiful website for your music. 01:22.984 --> 01:27.526 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm old enough to remember when you had to pay somebody called a web developer to get a website made. 01:28.267 --> 01:28.767 [SPEAKER_00]: It would always be 01:31.112 --> 01:39.814 [SPEAKER_00]: who drove a Dodge Challenger Hellcat with a straight pipe exhaust, and who was always trying to sell you bootlegged, too fast, too furious merchandise. 01:40.534 --> 01:45.655 [SPEAKER_00]: In Old Ireland, we charge you about 1,000 bucks for a website that would be obsolete in six months. 01:46.196 --> 01:49.396 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's the future now, you guys, that's not how it works anymore. 01:49.736 --> 01:51.497 [SPEAKER_00]: We're allowed to have nice things now. 01:52.137 --> 01:53.877 [SPEAKER_00]: One of those nice things is band-zool. 01:54.297 --> 01:59.539 [SPEAKER_00]: For over 20 years, band-zool has made it easy to build a stunning website and online store 02:01.139 --> 02:08.808 [SPEAKER_00]: Now they've added a brand new EPK plan so that musicians can create a professional single page electronic press kit in minutes. 02:09.469 --> 02:11.211 [SPEAKER_00]: Everything you need is already built in. 02:11.792 --> 02:17.518 [SPEAKER_00]: Music players, images, text bio, video embeds, a gig calendar and press quotes. 02:18.179 --> 02:27.421 [SPEAKER_00]: The new EPK plan starts at just $6.95 per month, and the working songwriter podcast lists going to go to bandswool.com to try it for free for 30 days. 02:27.821 --> 02:39.844 [SPEAKER_00]: Use the promo code TWSEPK to get 10% off the first year of any new EPK plan subscription that's bandswool.com promo code TWSEPK. 02:41.055 --> 02:48.500 [SPEAKER_00]: Finally, if you enjoyed this podcast, if you'd like to help at remain a viable endeavor for me, here's a couple of things that you could do to help. 02:49.001 --> 02:51.783 [SPEAKER_00]: First and foremost, you could become a subscriber to the Vault. 02:52.303 --> 02:53.064 [SPEAKER_00]: What is the Vault? 02:53.144 --> 03:00.149 [SPEAKER_00]: The Vault is a private member's only section of my website that hosts every episode of the Working Songwriter ever recorded. 03:00.749 --> 03:05.212 [SPEAKER_00]: Currently, only the latest 100 episodes are available in iTunes and Spotify for free. 03:05.893 --> 03:08.915 [SPEAKER_00]: All of the previous episodes are there in the vault. 03:09.075 --> 03:13.399 [SPEAKER_00]: Additionally, the vault has every single album I've ever recorded for streaming and for download. 03:13.879 --> 03:15.440 [SPEAKER_00]: Not all of them are unspotified. 03:15.960 --> 03:20.304 [SPEAKER_00]: There's also an archive of the iconic enthusiast Digest newsletter there. 03:20.844 --> 03:24.066 [SPEAKER_00]: Go to jopugmusic.com slash vault, become a subscriber today. 03:24.547 --> 03:27.749 [SPEAKER_00]: It's about the price of a nice cup of coffee every month, five bucks. 03:29.110 --> 03:34.713 [SPEAKER_00]: If you were generous enough to do that, that would be great and you will also receive access to all of that content. 03:35.474 --> 03:38.976 [SPEAKER_00]: If you're not in a place where you can contribute in that way, I totally understand. 03:39.356 --> 03:41.557 [SPEAKER_00]: There's still a couple ways that you could help us out for free. 03:42.037 --> 03:45.239 [SPEAKER_00]: First, you could leave us a rating in the iTunes store or second. 03:45.559 --> 03:47.440 [SPEAKER_00]: You could simply tell a friend about the show. 03:47.500 --> 03:49.281 [SPEAKER_00]: Spread the word about the show. 03:49.722 --> 03:55.625 [SPEAKER_00]: The simple math and those two things is that they will help me much more than they will be a pain in the ass for you. 03:56.489 --> 03:58.016 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I'll end all the harassment there. 03:58.057 --> 03:59.765 [SPEAKER_00]: I hope that you enjoy this week's episode. 04:18.039 --> 04:21.901 [SPEAKER_00]: Our guest this week is one of Louisville's favorite musical songs. 04:22.821 --> 04:31.525 [SPEAKER_00]: Jim James is a native Kentuckyan who rose to prominence as the vocalist and creative force behind the celebrated rock group, My Morning Jacket. 04:32.425 --> 04:43.610 [SPEAKER_00]: The Jacket, as they are affectionately called by their fans, were at least their debut album, The Tennessee Fire in 1999, and took the country by storm with their legendary live show. 04:44.450 --> 04:51.438 [SPEAKER_00]: Since then they've released a slew of critically acclaimed albums that regularly chart inside the billboards top 10. 04:52.039 --> 04:56.705 [SPEAKER_00]: The group has recorded for capital, RCA, ATO and V2 records. 04:57.285 --> 05:02.391 [SPEAKER_00]: They've toured with Bob Dylan, Wilcoe, guided by voices and the food fires. 05:03.382 --> 05:15.255 [SPEAKER_00]: The hard-charging band has appeared at Boneru, Lola Palusa, Coachella, Newport Folk, New Orleans, Jazz Fest, Austin City Limits, Glastonbury, the Bridge School Benefit, and it just goes on and on. 05:15.355 --> 05:16.136 [SPEAKER_00]: They've been everywhere. 05:16.896 --> 05:22.062 [SPEAKER_00]: But they've also been frequent guests on late night television, including Letterman, Conan, and Jimmy Fallon. 05:23.017 --> 05:29.103 [SPEAKER_00]: In more recent years, Jim has been a part of the group Monsters of Folk, along with M. Ward and Conrovers. 05:29.704 --> 05:34.689 [SPEAKER_00]: He's also released a string of solo albums including this year's title, Wound Out. 05:35.610 --> 05:40.995 [SPEAKER_00]: Pitchfork has called the jacket sound huge, ghostly terrifying rock and roll. 05:41.593 --> 05:47.056 [SPEAKER_00]: The Guardian has dubbed the band's output as seven albums of resplendent melodies. 05:47.816 --> 05:54.560 [SPEAKER_00]: An NPR has said that his music has the sound of a lost soul and search of something bigger than himself. 05:55.340 --> 06:00.043 [SPEAKER_00]: I got a chance to catch up with Jim a few weeks ago to hear about his musical journey so far. 06:09.012 --> 06:15.795 [SPEAKER_01]: Jim James, what an honor to have you on the working songwriter podcast, you know, I was getting ready for the show this week with you. 06:15.815 --> 06:16.795 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was thinking about it. 06:17.336 --> 06:25.819 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, man, at this point, Jim James and my morning jacket, or like one of the most important cultural exports from Louisville at this point. 06:25.879 --> 06:28.800 [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe you don't, you know, think about it like that. 06:28.820 --> 06:30.661 [SPEAKER_01]: And in that way, it would be hard to if it was you. 06:30.721 --> 06:32.722 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think it's really true. 06:32.922 --> 06:34.503 [SPEAKER_01]: And it just makes me wonder. 06:35.323 --> 06:42.727 [SPEAKER_01]: you know what was your upbringing like and what was your musical formation like in Louisville that you think is maybe different than you wouldn't have gotten from somewhere else. 06:44.088 --> 07:01.797 [SPEAKER_02]: Well thanks for saying that I appreciate that there's so many amazing artists from Louisville and so many you know just just so much great art and you know everything and Muhammad Ali you know from Louisville you know just so yeah so much and you know I think the one of the 07:05.475 --> 07:22.629 [SPEAKER_02]: It evades any identity, you know, everybody thinks, everybody from the north thinks it's southern and everybody from the south thinks it's the north and it's not the Midwest and it's not, you know, it kind of sits in this really interesting place that is a really interesting place to grow up because, 07:24.025 --> 07:37.355 [SPEAKER_02]: My friends and I, we never really identified with any labels or anything, you know, and I think that kind of really went into the music that we were making too, because we were like, into every form of music. 07:37.415 --> 07:41.798 [SPEAKER_02]: So there was never a desire to say, we're only going to play heavy metal music. 07:41.818 --> 07:43.999 [SPEAKER_02]: We're only going to play jazz or you know, whatever. 07:44.019 --> 07:47.482 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, and I think Louisville also is connected just similar. 07:49.337 --> 07:54.120 [SPEAKER_02]: spiritual pipeline as a place like New Orleans or Houston. 07:54.160 --> 07:54.421 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. 07:54.481 --> 08:00.925 [SPEAKER_02]: There's a certain steamy, a hot spiritual magic, you know, in these places. 08:00.945 --> 08:07.049 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like southern Catholicism, usually in the sound of this baptism stuff like that, but it's the southern Catholicism pipeline. 08:07.190 --> 08:08.691 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's the biggest part. 08:09.091 --> 08:11.953 [SPEAKER_01]: Those German Catholics, and then obviously New Orleans with the French, but 08:12.393 --> 08:23.017 [SPEAKER_01]: I was thinking the same thing today, so I'm from Maryland, I guess I think of it as a southern city, but now that you mention it, I see what you mean, and yeah, it kind of sits out there on its own. 08:23.738 --> 08:24.338 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's wild. 08:25.538 --> 08:31.361 [SPEAKER_01]: Like Lexington to me strikes me as a southern city, even though it's just, you know, it's just the miles down the road, but Louisville's different. 08:32.181 --> 08:32.521 [SPEAKER_02]: It is. 08:32.601 --> 08:33.342 [SPEAKER_02]: It's so different. 08:33.422 --> 08:37.963 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they're both I lived in Lexington for a while, and yeah, they're both so different. 08:38.004 --> 08:38.624 [SPEAKER_02]: It's wild. 08:39.638 --> 08:41.159 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, every place is different. 08:41.179 --> 08:44.242 [SPEAKER_02]: The other place has its own special identity. 08:44.602 --> 08:48.246 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's something that you see a lot traveling as much as we do. 08:48.306 --> 08:52.149 [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, be on tour and spend a time in each place. 08:52.229 --> 08:58.455 [SPEAKER_02]: It's really beautiful that every place has its own special identity. 08:59.197 --> 09:01.319 [SPEAKER_01]: So how was music breaking through to you? 09:01.339 --> 09:02.860 [SPEAKER_01]: Was it a particular radio station? 09:02.880 --> 09:04.021 [SPEAKER_01]: Was it a record shop? 09:04.101 --> 09:06.223 [SPEAKER_01]: Was it a particular scene of music? 09:06.283 --> 09:09.766 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, when did you start finding music that really resonated with you? 09:10.626 --> 09:15.390 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the first memory as a kid was just like the Muppet Show, you know, hearing. 09:16.711 --> 09:33.716 [SPEAKER_02]: the frog on a sitting on a log singing the rainbow connection you know just really like hit some deep melancholy or some deep sadness in my heart you know as a little little bit of kid you know three four-year-old kid and I remember feeling this feeling of like 09:35.742 --> 09:46.271 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what that frog is doing, but I love what he's doing, and I want to do that, you know, like I felt that connection, like I want to hold a banjo and sit on a log, you know, and sing this beautiful song. 09:46.611 --> 09:59.943 [SPEAKER_02]: And then, you know, watching more Muppet Show, seeing the electric mayhem, seeing the rock and roll of the band playing and stuff, I remember feeling that viscerly too, and being confused, you know, because at first, I'm like, isn't 10:00.603 --> 10:15.642 [SPEAKER_02]: music just sitting on a log and a swamp playing a sad song on a banjo but then it's like no it's also you know going crazy with a rock and roll band or whatever you know and I remember just being so inspired by the muppets 10:16.788 --> 10:24.633 [SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting because almost all people love music, but not everyone when they hear it immediately thinks like, and this is for me, and I'm going to do this. 10:24.673 --> 10:28.636 [SPEAKER_01]: Not just I'm going to listen to it, but I'm going to be a provider and a creator of this. 10:29.196 --> 10:32.218 [SPEAKER_01]: So how did that manifest itself in the earlier stages? 10:33.079 --> 10:35.060 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's just always hoped me that way. 10:35.080 --> 10:37.302 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's part of the interesting thing about 10:38.431 --> 10:51.589 [SPEAKER_02]: whatever our soul is looking for down on here down on earth you know when we take these forms there's just something about the imprint of whatever my soul was looking for this time 10:53.164 --> 11:15.166 [SPEAKER_02]: form to this being called gym or whatever them I'm occupying right now and it just spoke to me you know it never I don't remember anything else speaking to me in such a way you know I was always bad at sports I tried all the sports and you know it was always laughed off the field and any sport I tried so I was like well those aren't for me and I 11:16.147 --> 11:18.910 [SPEAKER_02]: was always drawn to visual art and enjoy visual art. 11:18.970 --> 11:20.571 [SPEAKER_02]: I enjoyed painting and stuff like that. 11:20.951 --> 11:25.795 [SPEAKER_02]: But that didn't quite have the same magnetism that music had, you know? 11:25.836 --> 11:39.587 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think really the the moment for me, you know, growing up I loved a heavy metal and hair metal was huge when I was a kid and then REM came on to the scene and REM was kind of the first time I thought, 11:40.468 --> 12:05.117 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, maybe normal people make this music too, you know, you don't have to have leather pants and big hair and stuff, and then, you know, like for so many other people, the Nirvana came through, you know, and like seeing Nirvana and seeing Kurt Cobain, it was like, that was when it really occurred to me that I could try to do this as well, you know, like that was definitely the, the moment that reached through and grabbed me. 12:05.952 --> 12:15.119 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm really glad that you name checked hair metal there because I feel like it really gets it has been turned into a punchline and kind of understandably so with the spandex and all that. 12:15.499 --> 12:33.773 [SPEAKER_01]: But at the same time, there's something so cool about how presentational it was and I feel like no other form of particularly rock music since then has been comfortable being like a little bit campy, like a little presentational kind of breaking up worthwhile in a way and not that you want everything to be like that. 12:35.855 --> 12:36.916 [SPEAKER_01]: here and there, you know? 12:37.276 --> 12:50.223 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's like, I think a lot of people are scared to put any sense of humor into their music, you know, and I think a lot of that, that here metal had a certain goofiness and a certain like flamboyance to it that was uh, yeah, I mean some of that music is. 12:51.113 --> 12:58.298 [SPEAKER_02]: insanely good, you know, stands the test of time forever, you know, and I think a lot of people I think still try to live in that era. 12:58.498 --> 13:11.327 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I see, you know, you go to concerts or whatever sometimes and you see people still dress like that or still, you know, and of course a lot of those bands are still touring and still playing and I think there's something interesting about that particular 13:12.408 --> 13:24.759 [SPEAKER_02]: That's always fascinating to me too when people can stay in a lane, you know, and stay in a genre or whatever, because for better or worse, you know, I'm sure some people would argue either way with the music I've made. 13:24.779 --> 13:34.968 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, I just can't stay in one lane because my attention's always being put directions, you know, but as a kid, hair metal, I mean, I probably wouldn't have learned to play the guitar if it wasn't for, uh, 13:35.649 --> 13:42.044 [SPEAKER_02]: here metal, you know, because that was the form of the first things that got me trying to learn guitar solos and stuff like that. 13:43.861 --> 13:44.101 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 13:44.622 --> 13:45.963 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I had a buddy of mine. 13:45.983 --> 13:56.092 [SPEAKER_01]: My buddy Greg was living in Champaign or Bannock because his wife was going to school out there and they heard that the hair metal band warrant was coming to town to play like the pie festival or something like that. 13:56.653 --> 14:04.500 [SPEAKER_01]: And they went to go ironically see warrant, but the joke was on them because they said it was one of the best shows they've ever seen in there. 14:04.520 --> 14:05.421 [SPEAKER_01]: That's cool. 14:05.461 --> 14:05.861 [SPEAKER_01]: That's cool. 14:05.981 --> 14:07.922 [SPEAKER_01]: this is like seven years ago, you know what I mean? 14:07.962 --> 14:24.972 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I got a real soft spot for all that and that you mentioned Nirvana was like the real jumping off point and it was for a lot of people but I think about like when you were born and you would have been like the perfect age or like when that broke like that must have been so formative at like 15 16 years old man. 14:24.992 --> 14:25.672 [SPEAKER_02]: That was huge. 14:25.752 --> 14:31.215 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean because it was a little little younger from me I was probably 12 or 13 but it was huge. 14:31.255 --> 14:31.956 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean it was everything. 14:31.996 --> 14:33.477 [SPEAKER_02]: You know it was just like that 14:34.077 --> 14:50.765 [SPEAKER_02]: magnetism that Kurt Cobain had and just the simplicity of the band and the way that they did things for my friends and I we all were like whoa we can do this you know we can try to do this you know it's like because you watch that's the thing about a lot of the hair metal and it's like 14:51.485 --> 15:20.593 [SPEAKER_02]: that stuff is complicated you know and you're you're trying to do it you're trying to learn the guitar solos or whatever but also as kids we're so dorky looking and so we're like I'm never gonna be able to wear a stand-ax and leather and you know do the whole thing you know I always felt like well done I guess I'll never be able to be a musician because I can't wear a stand-ax and leather and I'm gonna look like an idiot but then seeing Nirvana is just like just so beautiful how simple they made it seem and obviously the music is so 15:22.077 --> 15:34.054 [SPEAKER_02]: wildly brilliant and wildly complex, but I think that's the greatest magic trick, you know, at least for me of so much music is like, seems so simple and then when you start to get into it, you realize the genius of it. 15:35.371 --> 15:59.872 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we have a mutual friend in Tim Shilw Walter from Strand of O'Reilly and Tim always has this joke about like there's two bands that could like they could drop at any point whether it's 1995, 2005, 2015 right now and still be you know the best thing in the world and Nirvana, it's for him it would be Hendrix and then Nirvana, that's the other one like that, that's the one way and you can put in any era and the melodies is so unique and so iconic that 15:59.992 --> 16:00.552 [SPEAKER_02]: I could see that. 16:00.872 --> 16:01.733 [SPEAKER_02]: Hendrix is crazy. 16:01.753 --> 16:02.933 [SPEAKER_02]: We talk about Hendrix all the time. 16:02.953 --> 16:09.696 [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like every time I listen to Jimmy Hendrix, it seems like it's only gotten more futuristic. 16:09.996 --> 16:17.379 [SPEAKER_02]: Every time I hear it, it sounds like it came out yesterday and it's so far ahead of the game of what anybody else is doing. 16:17.839 --> 16:23.322 [SPEAKER_02]: It has this crazy magic trick that, I mean, that's when I really believe 16:25.178 --> 16:52.715 [SPEAKER_02]: something more than the human experience, you know, because I, I think the human experience is important and we're here to learn and it's a, it's a, it's a beautiful sacred experience, but when somebody like Jimmy Hendrix or Kurt Cobain takes, you know, incarnates here on earth or whatever, there's so much power present there that I feel like that is like some kind of direct message from where we all come from from the spirit realm or whatever that is sent to help us, you know, like to, to 16:55.231 --> 17:19.308 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, they can't give us the answers directly because that would defeat the whole point of being a human and learning and suffering and succeeding and failing, but they send these people like Jimmy Hendrix through the pipeline to be like, don't forget, you know, there's this beautiful thing you're going to meet it back up with it someday, you know, once your experience is done and I just like think of people like him as messengers from where we all come from. 17:20.570 --> 17:28.433 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like we won't take you to the advanced alien civilization, but we will send a spaceship that you can find and you can look at the console of the spaceship. 17:29.013 --> 17:31.133 [SPEAKER_01]: So we're things can really go. 17:31.694 --> 17:38.476 [SPEAKER_01]: Man, so you did spend, you mentioned you were in Lexington for a while, I think you had a cup of coffee in college for a little while, and that wasn't your thing. 17:39.076 --> 17:49.101 [SPEAKER_01]: and music very quickly would be, and before my morning jacket was formed yet a couple bands, a most significantly month of Sundays, what were you learning at that time? 17:49.121 --> 17:56.904 [SPEAKER_01]: Like what did you have to to come online with musically and songwriting wise to gear up to what my morning jacket would eventually be? 17:57.304 --> 18:00.486 [SPEAKER_02]: While it's funny because month of Sundays we were primarily 18:01.326 --> 18:13.923 [SPEAKER_02]: focused on kind of like lack of a better word like prog rock meets Nirvana or whatever you know like we're trying to do something heavy and something but uh the other guys in the month of Sundays were really into uh 18:15.073 --> 18:32.493 [SPEAKER_02]: pro rock or even just like you're different metal or different you know things that were like very complicated and lots of twists and turns and changes and stuff like that which I'm definitely into that stuff too but I've begun to fall in love with music like Neil Young Harvest and Carol King Tapestry and 18:33.352 --> 18:34.813 [SPEAKER_02]: build withers and stuff like that. 18:34.833 --> 18:40.758 [SPEAKER_02]: And I was started writing these songs that were softer and more folkier and stuff. 18:40.799 --> 18:48.866 [SPEAKER_02]: And I took those to the month of Sunday's guys and they were just like, oh, I don't know, we tried to bumble through a couple, but they just weren't interested in that. 18:49.646 --> 18:57.673 [SPEAKER_02]: So I began just doing open and night and stuff like that by myself and just kind of exploring that side by myself. 18:58.214 --> 18:59.315 [SPEAKER_02]: And then it was interesting because I 19:00.827 --> 19:06.829 [SPEAKER_02]: start to make demo tapes and send out demo tapes and the universe kind of steered the ship. 19:06.969 --> 19:16.211 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's like the the my morning jacket demo tape got some excitement and got some, you know, got some thing and nobody ever responded to the month of Sunday's demo tapes. 19:16.271 --> 19:19.312 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, so it's kind of like I just kind of kept going in that direction. 19:21.357 --> 19:36.810 [SPEAKER_01]: It's such a hard balance to walk because obviously, I mean, you know, given what your career has been going to all these different places, like no one could ever, how can I phrase this basically you don't want to pander to an audience obviously and 19:37.350 --> 19:51.817 [SPEAKER_01]: But at the same time, you do want to take feedback from like what are people interested in and then and I can push them further once I learned that they're interested in something and so it's such a hard line to walk you've managed to walk that for 25 years now. 19:51.857 --> 20:03.743 [SPEAKER_01]: How do you manage that that difference between going in a direction that you know an audience will find like edifying and useful and beautiful and at the same time walking your own road and not taking complete directions from that. 20:07.990 --> 20:36.344 [SPEAKER_02]: worry about it because at least for me the music that works is going to work and I can explain why it works and every time I make a record it's different and I learned long ago I hoped that I could get everybody on earth to be like this is amazing this is my worry jacket is the greatest you know let's throw away all our Beatles records we don't need those anymore you know my worry jacket is the greatest thing but I slowly began to realize no matter what we did 20:37.495 --> 20:43.846 [SPEAKER_02]: there's always somebody that hates it and there's always somebody that loves it, you know, so it doesn't matter you know after 20:45.013 --> 21:05.690 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, probably four or five records I've begun to realize this after I wrote the roller coaster of reviews, you know, and just like, or people's opinions or whatever, and one person's like, man, they're earlier albums are too slow and too reverber, but I don't like those, you know, I like their more rock and stuff, and then somebody else the next person's like, I hate their rock and stuff. 21:05.730 --> 21:10.294 [SPEAKER_02]: I love it when they're super reverbery and super, you know, and it's just like, you kind 21:12.466 --> 21:24.855 [SPEAKER_02]: And also the cool thing about being around this long is you also see and hear from people they're like, man, when you when you all release this album, I didn't like it at all, but five years later, 10 years later, it's my favorite album now. 21:25.115 --> 21:28.558 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's so true for me with so much of my favorite music. 21:28.578 --> 21:38.065 [SPEAKER_02]: I remember hearing very distinctly, I remember hearing pet sounds for the first time in high school and just being like, I don't know, man, I don't really like this, you know, it doesn't really speak to me. 21:38.305 --> 21:38.926 [SPEAKER_02]: And then, you know, 21:39.506 --> 21:55.954 [SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, it's one of my favorite records of all time or there's so many records I can think of like that that I love that about music and that it's exciting to me too So that's been really helpful too when I put out music and it doesn't get the response I wish it would or you know, it's kind of gets bad reviews or whatever. 21:56.594 --> 21:59.796 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm kind of like well I know I'm tried my hardest. 22:00.376 --> 22:07.800 [SPEAKER_02]: I know that the guys try their hardest and Hopefully somebody likes it out there, but maybe they'll like it more in 10 years or whatever You know, it's like who knows 22:08.788 --> 22:33.165 [SPEAKER_01]: we'll see time will be the judge my my then girlfriend now wife played a gillian mulch is time the revelator for me and you know that album starts with those kind of dissonant notes that Dave Rowling's played and I couldn't get over that my first heard it I literally thought I was like it's out of tune like it doesn't and I really didn't like it and then five years from then it was probably the only record I listened to for like a two or three year yeah I don't know what what that is man 22:33.705 --> 22:38.247 [SPEAKER_02]: I love that about music, I mean, I really think it's like something that speaks to evolution. 22:38.587 --> 22:45.711 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I really feel like music is a secret reminder from the spirit world or whatever. 22:45.751 --> 22:47.792 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's like a little wink or a little hint. 22:47.952 --> 22:53.554 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and I feel like those kind of things hint at our evolution to come. 22:53.774 --> 22:59.197 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I think that's kind of, yeah, I love that feeling when he put on a new record and you're like, 23:04.337 --> 23:06.718 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it's a different type of writing. 23:06.758 --> 23:15.143 [SPEAKER_01]: It's almost cheating when it comes, like if you talked to someone who's like a novelist or a poet that they're like, oh man, you know, it must be so hard to write songs and have all that stuff to come together. 23:15.163 --> 23:21.166 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, no, it's hard for you because you don't get to operate in this elevated realm, which music is. 23:21.206 --> 23:28.070 [SPEAKER_01]: So you can make much simpler things, have a much deeper meaning, just because they're being spoken through this medium. 23:28.910 --> 23:29.851 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's interesting. 23:29.931 --> 23:31.432 [SPEAKER_02]: It's, it's, it's, 23:34.387 --> 24:00.652 [SPEAKER_02]: us all in different ways, you know, because I feel like there's things coming out of everybody in whatever they do, um, I've been thinking about it a lot with, uh, like, I've had things break at my house recently, like the air conditioning broke or the refrigerator broke, you know, these things that we kind of take for granted until they're broken, you know, and you're like sweating in the house because the AC's broken, and then the people come over to fix the AC and you're like, 24:01.825 --> 24:13.152 [SPEAKER_02]: Whoa, you know, like this guy's blowing my mind because he understands how this complex system of refrigeration and wiring and ventilation and all the stuff works without him, I'm helpless. 24:13.172 --> 24:27.842 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I mean, it's like I don't understand that at all, you know, so there's, that's the beautiful thing I think about every trade and every art and every, it's like, all these things are speaking and when we need everybody, you know, I think that's something too that is, 24:29.543 --> 24:35.192 [SPEAKER_02]: The world's out of balance, I feel like people aren't valued enough for everything that they do, right? 24:35.212 --> 24:43.885 [SPEAKER_02]: Because it's like, if the trash collectors don't come to collect your trash, pretty soon you're in a mess, you're so it's like, I wish there was some... 24:45.128 --> 25:12.960 [SPEAKER_02]: tilting that could happen away from this this ruthless capitalism that's happening you know where these five men own all the money in the world and everybody else is suffering to get by you know it's because it's like it could be a beautiful world for everybody you know there's enough resources there's enough room there's enough for everybody to have a beautiful life you know and make enough money to live on have health insurance have a safe place to live you know it's so possible you know at which there's some way we could break through 25:15.598 --> 25:43.381 [SPEAKER_01]: the evolution you know and I hope we get there sooner than later we're going to need someone to come back with some of that time splitting alien technology to let us know how it's but I mean seeing people who are fantastic at what they do even at pitch the HVAC guy like I've been really into coaching baseball recently because I got a nine year old boy so I'm just the assistant coach right and then I'm running across these coaches in this league so while I've been thinking about writing and recording songs for the last 20 years that's 25:45.002 --> 26:07.448 [SPEAKER_01]: All these guys have been thinking about is when's the proper time to do a squeeze bond and whether it's up, you know, third baseline, yeah Like it's it's so cool to see someone who's been thinking about that the whole time Amazing and they explained it to you like well, I think it should go like this like now Man, I thought about that 10 years ago and the thing about that is and it's just it's amazing Learning yeah, it is beautiful. 26:07.488 --> 26:08.388 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, sports are the same. 26:08.408 --> 26:09.949 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like it's just another art form 26:10.589 --> 26:17.665 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just another way of there's something I read the other day that was that made me really think about it all and another light where it's like 26:18.660 --> 26:22.744 [SPEAKER_02]: We all come from the same spirit realm or whatever. 26:22.764 --> 26:24.185 [SPEAKER_02]: And we can't quite understand it. 26:24.225 --> 26:25.626 [SPEAKER_02]: We don't know what to label it. 26:25.646 --> 26:28.088 [SPEAKER_02]: And we try to call it God or we try to call it this or that. 26:28.449 --> 26:30.531 [SPEAKER_02]: But it's like we're all the same. 26:31.511 --> 26:39.318 [SPEAKER_02]: But we take these forms on earth and another dimensions and stuff in our experiences, shape us into who we are or whatever. 26:39.579 --> 26:42.721 [SPEAKER_02]: So I kind of like thinking about that because it's like at the source. 26:43.402 --> 26:51.349 [SPEAKER_02]: We're all the exact same material, you know, expert material or whatever, but, you know, we're just shaped through these experiences we have. 26:51.709 --> 27:02.659 [SPEAKER_02]: And, yeah, because when somebody talks about baseball plays or soccer plays or the HVAC or whatever, and I'm thinking about music and I'm like, it's all the same. 27:02.679 --> 27:04.501 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's all different shades of the same thing. 27:05.663 --> 27:22.197 [SPEAKER_01]: yeah and i think we can kind of orient ourselves to that i know this is true for me at least like the times that i'm happiest maybe happy isn't even the word but the time i'm most at peace and life is when i really do feel like whatever the moment is i'm in right there whether it's you know coaching first base or playing a show like 27:22.878 --> 27:25.700 [SPEAKER_01]: for better or for worse, this is where I'm supposed to be right now. 27:25.720 --> 27:31.723 [SPEAKER_01]: And that means that I've listened to like kind of these cues through my soul, through life, to lead me to that place. 27:32.224 --> 27:37.247 [SPEAKER_01]: And then conversely, like the darkest times you have in life, man, it just really feels like you're not in the right. 27:37.887 --> 27:42.410 [SPEAKER_01]: You took a wrong turn somewhere, maybe walk back to the last train you took, you know. 28:03.228 --> 28:12.075 [SPEAKER_00]: Usually for each episode of the show, I find a poem that matches our guest artists output or outlook on life or where they're from. 28:13.456 --> 28:19.000 [SPEAKER_00]: For Jim's episode, I can't resist the reading a passage from the writing of one of his fellow Kentuckyans. 28:20.001 --> 28:29.147 [SPEAKER_00]: Hunter S. Thompson once painted a portrait of their hometown of Louisville in the iconic article that Kentucky Derby is decadent and depraved. 28:29.868 --> 28:31.189 [SPEAKER_00]: Here's a favorite passage. 28:33.147 --> 28:37.129 [SPEAKER_00]: The Clubhouse bars on Derby Days are a very special kind of scene. 28:38.050 --> 28:58.242 [SPEAKER_00]: Along with the politicians, society bells, and local captains of commerce, every half-mad ding-bat who ever had any pretentions to anything at all within 500 miles of Louisville will show up there to get strutting drunk and slap a lot of backs and generally make himself obvious. 28:59.515 --> 29:03.377 [SPEAKER_00]: The paddock bar is probably the best place in the track to sit and watch faces. 29:04.157 --> 29:05.777 [SPEAKER_00]: Nobody minds being stared at. 29:06.138 --> 29:07.118 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what they're there for. 29:07.958 --> 29:10.639 [SPEAKER_00]: Some people spend most of their time in the paddock. 29:11.160 --> 29:22.044 [SPEAKER_00]: They can hunker down at one of the many wooden tables, lean back in a comfortable chair and watch the ever changing odds flash up and down on the big tote board outside the window. 29:22.944 --> 29:36.155 [SPEAKER_00]: Black waiters and white serving jackets move through the crowd with trays of drinks, while the experts pondered their racing forms, and the hunchbeder's pick lucky numbers were scam line up for right-sounding names. 29:36.776 --> 29:44.002 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a constant flow of traffic to and from the perimutual window outside in the wooden quarters. 29:44.723 --> 29:46.224 [SPEAKER_00]: Then, as post-time 29:56.347 --> 30:02.112 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, the jacket is so legendary for getting their start with like these blistering live shows. 30:02.253 --> 30:11.742 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is a review that doesn't just come from fans, I interviewed Carl for this show one time and he talked about joining your band and playing his first show with you guys. 30:11.822 --> 30:12.662 [SPEAKER_01]: And even he 30:13.443 --> 30:14.224 [SPEAKER_01]: was blown away. 30:14.244 --> 30:16.845 [SPEAKER_01]: I think maybe him and Beau were new together at the same time. 30:16.865 --> 30:29.372 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if the player was, but they as band members were blown away by the energy of the live shows, when did that kind of beast start to manifest itself on stage? 30:29.392 --> 30:35.635 [SPEAKER_01]: When did you start noticing that the thing you were doing on stage was creating an energy that was unlike most things? 30:35.895 --> 30:44.638 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's a funny juxtaposition because we were raised on hair metal and Nirvana, you know, and so we're like inspired to rock like that. 30:44.678 --> 30:52.580 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we're inspired to thrash and head bang and jump around and all this stuff and it was hilarious because like the first place that ever 30:53.460 --> 31:17.666 [SPEAKER_02]: love to the band was over in Holland and Belgium, and they loved our first record the Tennessee fire, which is a very spaced out, very slow, lots of reverb, you know, there's some rock and roll on there or whatever, but they liked that record and they brought us over there, and we're like, playing like we're a death metal band or something, you know, we're like, and there are so many people that came up to me after the show and they're like, I liked the album, I do not like the live performance. 31:18.387 --> 31:25.043 [SPEAKER_02]: I do not like the live show, it's just in this funny kind of, you know, Dutch way of, you know, just being brutally honest. 31:25.063 --> 31:28.029 [SPEAKER_02]: And so that was a really funny point for us, because we always thought, 31:29.427 --> 31:41.832 [SPEAKER_02]: And it took me years to learn this because it came from a place of not loving myself and thinking like, if I sacrifice my body, if I destroy my body, then maybe I'll be good enough for people. 31:42.412 --> 31:48.315 [SPEAKER_02]: If I had bang hard enough or if I'd jump off the drum set enough times, maybe then I'll be good enough. 31:48.355 --> 31:52.977 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, that kind of thing where it was like, I kind of felt like I had to destroy myself 31:58.619 --> 32:23.909 [SPEAKER_02]: you know it's interesting you see people on stage you don't move a lot like the grateful dead or whatever you know like that just kind of early read or you know people to just kind of stand there and play and I don't know what's in there make up or whatever where maybe they don't feel the same way they're like I'm just gonna play the music I don't knock them around I'm not gonna head bang I'm not gonna you know but but we were just all like I mean I think is what we were raised on too but we were just like 32:25.620 --> 32:33.905 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we just love to rock to those just half the thought of rocking as like head banging and you know jumping around and stuff so that's just kind of always part of it. 32:35.886 --> 32:45.512 [SPEAKER_01]: It seems so like that period and let's call it you know more or less like 2000 to 2010 like the band was just seem like you were working like a lot. 32:45.652 --> 32:50.675 [SPEAKER_01]: I was in Chicago at the time in XRT when off the record came out. 32:54.497 --> 32:54.978 [SPEAKER_01]: you know what I mean? 32:54.998 --> 32:56.519 [SPEAKER_01]: Like it was in major rotation there. 32:56.960 --> 32:58.742 [SPEAKER_01]: You guys were on the road all the time. 32:59.182 --> 33:03.607 [SPEAKER_01]: That sounds like a lot of fun, but that also sounds really exhausting as well. 33:03.627 --> 33:11.816 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you kind of speak to some of the highs and maybe someone like the exhausting parts of that 10-year kind of epic run? 33:12.477 --> 33:32.881 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah, I think you just don't know as a young person, you don't know how to take care of yourself, and you also think, I think a lot of people would agree with this, if you're a young band getting some success, you think that if you say no to anything, the success is all going to dry up, you know, so we just said yes to everything, you know, 33:33.041 --> 33:46.850 [SPEAKER_02]: every offer that came in the door, you know, just it didn't matter how exhausted we were, how much rest we should have taken, we're just like, okay, okay, you know, so we were just like running, running, running, running, and I wound up in the hospital two or three times, you know, from different things. 33:47.291 --> 33:52.454 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, I'm literally putting myself in the hospital, and I still can't see it. 33:52.474 --> 33:56.677 [SPEAKER_02]: You know what I mean, after I get out of the hospital and I recover for like a month or whatever, I'm like, 33:57.137 --> 34:13.791 [SPEAKER_02]: All right, let's get back on the treadmill, you know, and keep, you know, keep drinking, keep playing, keep running and just like the, you know, whatever it's all part of the, what the universe wanted from me, it's all part of the story, you know, I don't have any regrets or anything, but it's just so funny to look at it now. 34:14.332 --> 34:23.419 [SPEAKER_02]: And now we've kind of all learned to take care of ourselves when we've all learned to like, try and put our mental and physical health first, so that involves for us. 34:24.284 --> 34:30.006 [SPEAKER_02]: enough rest in between things because we enjoy each show more if we've taken the time to rest. 34:30.026 --> 34:37.628 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, because I grew throughout that period, I grew to really resent playing because it meant a physical detriment to me. 34:37.688 --> 34:42.350 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's like I was always glad that people came to see us, but there were times when I'm in there and I was like, 34:42.950 --> 35:09.435 [SPEAKER_02]: so destroyed and i'm like oh my god i've got to go play a show tonight like i'm like i don't know how i can do it you know it's like and then you have to do it because there's all of this pressure of like sustaining the financial organization behind the whole thing you know it's like we cancel this show like all the money we were supposed to make for the whole tours gone you know there's this whole disaster so you go kill yourself again and then you drink to forget it all on that as to the cycle and then you do it again you know it's the 35:11.855 --> 35:32.822 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's one thing when people ask me for advice or stuff like that, listen to your heart but also take care of yourself and be kind yourself and don't forget to say no once in a while or just think about your health more. 35:34.397 --> 35:43.202 [SPEAKER_01]: It's such a tough balance though because you know going that hard at that time that's also how you get really good Yeah, like a lot of reps a lot of reps that I'm okay. 35:43.242 --> 35:53.287 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna do you good, you know, so it's Yeah, so when you I now in my mind associate you so much with Los Angeles because you've done so much 35:53.587 --> 35:54.408 [SPEAKER_01]: work out there. 35:54.508 --> 35:59.733 [SPEAKER_01]: You're in all sorts of different strange different musical scenes out there. 36:00.013 --> 36:07.360 [SPEAKER_01]: Did your move out to Los Angeles coincide with when Jacket first kind of slowed down a little bit to take a break or had you moved out there already? 36:07.840 --> 36:14.446 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, it's kind of always been a lot of time out there working on records and just I love L.A. so much and being out there. 36:15.507 --> 36:18.870 [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, there was a point in my life where several different chaotic 36:19.730 --> 36:32.722 [SPEAKER_02]: things happened personally and there was, yeah, I was kind of so burnt from during the jacket touring and stuff that I decided to like spend more time out there, you know, and kind of gravitate more out there for a while. 36:34.504 --> 36:42.431 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, it's like there's so many forces that play and I feel like, I think it's one of those things too, it's like, 36:43.932 --> 36:48.913 [SPEAKER_02]: It takes so long for us to realize that classic saying of wherever you go, there you are. 36:49.293 --> 36:59.495 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and I feel like you think you can change it, you know, you know, I'm like, maybe if I move to LA, then everything will change, you know, then I'll fall in love and I'll find the right path and blah, blah, blah, blah. 36:59.835 --> 37:03.756 [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, everything your work's going to follow you everywhere. 37:03.796 --> 37:06.737 [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, you learn new things from different situations and stuff. 37:06.777 --> 37:12.778 [SPEAKER_02]: But I do enjoy, I kind of still consider myself like kind of 37:13.773 --> 37:23.054 [SPEAKER_02]: to flip my time between L.A. and Louisville and love both those places so much and they are both so different and have their own beautiful things about them, but yeah. 37:25.502 --> 37:28.043 [SPEAKER_01]: It's, you know, that's saying wherever you go there, you are. 37:28.083 --> 37:30.003 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not just a physical thing either. 37:30.083 --> 37:33.484 [SPEAKER_01]: I find it's even with like different personal accomplishments. 37:33.504 --> 37:37.985 [SPEAKER_01]: I do like I'll be like, man, I'm not gonna drink for a while, because I think I'm bangin' myself up over this. 37:38.285 --> 37:44.867 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I'll stop, and then be like damn it, I still hate myself a lot of the time, even though I'm not drinking. 37:44.907 --> 37:45.107 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 37:45.207 --> 37:49.528 [SPEAKER_01]: At least with the drink, and I would have an excuse like, well, if I could just stop that, then it would be fine. 37:49.548 --> 37:50.749 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, now you're still there, man. 37:50.849 --> 37:51.229 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah. 37:51.249 --> 37:52.929 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it's good that you laid off the bottle, 37:55.410 --> 38:18.542 [SPEAKER_01]: oh yeah yeah you've done so many projects obviously not only jacket you have you know 15 years now of a solo career the new record which we're going to get to here in just a moment you also produced a lot of music over the years can you talk to me a little bit both as a songwriter and a producer helping other songwriters get to their work 38:20.246 --> 38:27.405 [SPEAKER_01]: How has your conception of songlightening or even your technique of songlighting changed the most over the course of the last 20 years? 38:29.114 --> 38:35.236 [SPEAKER_02]: Well man, it's like it's so fun being a producer and being able to step outside. 38:35.276 --> 38:38.997 [SPEAKER_02]: It's almost like you're stepping into the witness consciousness, you know, inside yourself. 38:39.077 --> 38:45.139 [SPEAKER_02]: But for other people, you know, you're just witnessing, you know, and you're not the one actually doing that's so fascinating. 38:45.159 --> 38:52.802 [SPEAKER_02]: I just produced a record by this band Eggy that isn't out yet, but it was so amazing 38:59.695 --> 39:01.816 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, it was just them and me. 39:02.957 --> 39:10.841 [SPEAKER_02]: And there's nobody else, and it's like, it's amazing when you can build trust with people to be able to, like, listen to them play. 39:12.222 --> 39:20.887 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, first off, it's like, when you get the demos from somebody and you're like sorting through all the demos and like, I don't have any, 39:22.037 --> 39:39.032 [SPEAKER_02]: rules or any I'm just like the song speaks to me or it doesn't you know and it's like and so we like whittle down from 30 songs we whittle down to 15 songs and then we're doing those 15 songs and it's amazing they're such a great live band and the way they're playing together on the floor so cool and I'm listening and I'm like 39:41.025 --> 39:47.831 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, man, that was so great, but you all just kind of played too fast, you know, like, let's, let's take a breath, you know, it's play a little slower. 39:48.391 --> 39:53.696 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think this part needs to be quite as long, you know, why don't we shorten this part or why don't we extend this part? 39:54.056 --> 39:55.958 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and that's one of the beautiful things about. 39:57.143 --> 40:05.645 [SPEAKER_02]: Just observing and not because when you're in there actually doing it you're in so attached to it That you oftentimes can't see. 40:05.665 --> 40:22.929 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I can't tell you how many times my more jacket's been recording somewhere And we're like do this take and we're like oh my god, that's amazing Holy shit, and then we go in the control room and the whoever's in there is like Well, you know, you all were pretty fast, you know, and then they play it back and we're like oh God, you know We're like way too fast or whatever. 40:23.329 --> 40:24.530 [SPEAKER_02]: So that that is a really 40:26.328 --> 40:41.757 [SPEAKER_02]: That's my favorite thing about music, maybe, is the lack of any, if you really love music and listen to it, it always tells you, it always speaks and that's the beautiful thing. 40:42.657 --> 40:52.343 [SPEAKER_02]: For me, it's like, I've learned that I can't, I can't force a song to work, I can't, you know, it's like, I can try my best, but at the end of the day, 40:53.918 --> 40:56.580 [SPEAKER_02]: it's just gonna speak or it's not gonna speak. 40:56.780 --> 41:05.025 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, in some things, it's beautiful how some things, you might get an idea and you know, finish it for 20 years or whatever. 41:05.085 --> 41:15.631 [SPEAKER_02]: And then for whatever reason, 20 years later, it speaks to you and something comes together and it all happens, you know, and other things are more immediate, but that's, that's the prime of my favorite thing about it. 41:15.651 --> 41:16.132 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just like, 41:17.097 --> 41:37.725 [SPEAKER_02]: just just the force it's the same forces love you know if you fall in love with somebody you don't even know why you know you just love them you know and that's like and somebody else you really don't vibe with that well and you just can't you know can't meet I don't whatever that's the I think that that's that's the thing about life is like things are speaking to us and we have the uh 41:39.812 --> 41:45.437 [SPEAKER_02]: the instructions, our conscience, or whatever it is within us that we know what the truth is. 41:45.737 --> 41:48.599 [SPEAKER_02]: But I think this world tries to dissuade us from the truth so much. 41:48.920 --> 41:51.282 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't listen to that, I don't listen to that, that's not true, that's not. 41:51.562 --> 41:57.127 [SPEAKER_02]: But we all have the truth inside, and I think music is one of those ways of kind of getting to that truth. 41:58.395 --> 42:02.860 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and the way that you just described it as that binary of either speaks to me or doesn't speak to me. 42:03.480 --> 42:07.665 [SPEAKER_01]: It's funny because that maps on to exactly how normal people just listen to music. 42:07.805 --> 42:09.607 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not like too fast, too slow. 42:09.967 --> 42:10.868 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't like this style. 42:10.888 --> 42:12.269 [SPEAKER_01]: They're like, I like this song. 42:12.450 --> 42:13.431 [SPEAKER_01]: Or I didn't like this. 42:13.451 --> 42:13.731 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 42:13.791 --> 42:14.752 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is the only. 42:15.132 --> 42:16.133 [SPEAKER_01]: Totally. 42:16.153 --> 42:16.354 [SPEAKER_01]: Yep. 42:16.954 --> 42:17.515 [SPEAKER_02]: It's amazing. 42:18.195 --> 42:20.617 [SPEAKER_01]: I try to, yeah, remember that so much. 42:21.959 --> 42:31.027 [SPEAKER_01]: Talk to me about this new record, Wild Out, which, first of all, I think it is an amazing colloquialism for kind of the digital age that we live in right now, so maybe you can get to that. 42:31.067 --> 42:34.269 [SPEAKER_01]: But also, you produce this one yourself. 42:34.309 --> 42:39.674 [SPEAKER_01]: I think you mixed or at least co-mixed the whole thing as well. 42:40.235 --> 42:42.637 [SPEAKER_01]: How did this project start and how did it come together? 42:43.217 --> 43:04.476 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, years ago, 15 years or so, I was asked to score a movie, and I was invited to do this alongside Brian Ritesle, who's an amazing composer and has done Sofia Coppola's films, he's done so much film and TV, and I had never done anything before, so the person who invited me to 43:05.357 --> 43:08.178 [SPEAKER_02]: Right music for the film, asked if I would work with Brian. 43:08.198 --> 43:11.179 [SPEAKER_02]: I was so stoked and went there, it is to his studio. 43:11.199 --> 43:16.982 [SPEAKER_02]: And we scored this film, and I wrote all these themes, and I wrote all these cues and stuff, and... 43:17.589 --> 43:33.252 [SPEAKER_02]: We had so much fun, it was so amazing, and then we got fired from the film, you know, they're like, wow, no, this is too weird or whatever, and we were like, so bummed, but it turned out to be a blessing because the film didn't turn out that great, and I got to keep all the music or whatever, so it's kind of cool. 43:33.732 --> 43:41.374 [SPEAKER_02]: So every now and again, one of these songs will pop up in my mind, or I'll hear it, you know, I'll find a session or whatever, and I kind of would like, 43:42.497 --> 43:52.446 [SPEAKER_02]: I always wanted to do something with it, and then a year ago or so, I was working on another song on the record. 43:52.486 --> 44:08.619 [SPEAKER_02]: It's the only song on the record that isn't from the scoring sessions, it's called Lost Child, and that was made from a sample of a Maxine Brown song that I was obsessed with, and I was working on that, and I was singing and kind of building that song. 44:09.320 --> 44:15.392 [SPEAKER_02]: And something about that experience reminded me of the scoring session. 44:15.432 --> 44:19.380 [SPEAKER_02]: So I got all of those and I opened those back up and I was like, 44:22.305 --> 44:25.266 [SPEAKER_02]: kind of like we're talking about earlier, it just all started firing. 44:25.426 --> 44:27.626 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like I was able to begin. 44:27.686 --> 44:30.527 [SPEAKER_02]: It was kind of like a resurrection or sampling of myself. 44:30.547 --> 44:38.469 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I was able to take these sessions and pull them apart and like do different things with them and and I walk a lot. 44:38.529 --> 44:44.170 [SPEAKER_02]: So I would like set up the bones of a song or whatever and then I would walk. 44:45.379 --> 45:02.497 [SPEAKER_02]: and the vocal melody would come out or some lyrical idea would come out or whatever and I'd work on it and it kind of all just came together and it was cool because something started out as a 30 second cue for a short scene in the film right it's like for people who don't really know the difference it's like 45:02.877 --> 45:24.995 [SPEAKER_02]: score music is the music that you'll hear underneath the scene that's usually instrumental you know and and then it films there's also like a song like you'll hear a song that you know come on or whatever so these were score pieces that were instrumental and I would take like a 30 second score cue and warp it into a three minute song or whatever or by first 45:32.049 --> 45:40.471 [SPEAKER_02]: you know, kind of watching the picture, or just like thinking about the picture, or and I would whittle that down into like a seven-minute song or whatever. 45:40.491 --> 45:42.672 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and it's like, that part is so fun too. 45:42.692 --> 45:47.133 [SPEAKER_02]: Just kind of like whittling and whittling and like thinking and twisting and shaping. 45:47.173 --> 45:59.036 [SPEAKER_02]: And then, yeah, it's like, and I was doing so much intense work that I talked to Emily Lazar, who is one of the greatest mastering engineers of all time, and her and I have become friends, 46:00.925 --> 46:02.828 [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, can I send you this? 46:03.569 --> 46:13.402 [SPEAKER_02]: These mixes I've done and will you be honest with me and just tell me like, please be brutally honest and say, you know, nice tried Jim, but have somebody mix it for real or it sounds great. 46:13.723 --> 46:17.187 [SPEAKER_02]: And I sent her a song and she was like, I think it sounds good, but 46:18.121 --> 46:20.382 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm curious what else is under the hood? 46:20.402 --> 46:22.402 [SPEAKER_02]: Can you send me the stems for the song? 46:22.442 --> 46:23.183 [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, yeah, sure. 46:23.223 --> 46:29.825 [SPEAKER_02]: So I sent her the stems and you know what she sent me back is just like so mind-blowing, you know? 46:29.865 --> 46:37.427 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just like the way that she works with sound and you know, pulls it all apart and it's like, but it was so amazing because I was able to, 46:39.471 --> 46:54.445 [SPEAKER_02]: send her my vision, send her my stems of the song, you know, I kind of separate my mix into what I saw the vision of the song is and then she was able to take that and like expand upon that and stretch that out in this beautiful way. 46:55.726 --> 47:02.392 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, that was really, really cool experience working with her and seeing how she was able to, uh, 47:03.636 --> 47:06.939 [SPEAKER_02]: Really, I mean, I laughed when I went back to my first mix. 47:06.999 --> 47:10.021 [SPEAKER_02]: It's been a sinner, I was like, you know, this is so cute. 47:10.202 --> 47:22.011 [SPEAKER_02]: But it was cool because what she did was what I was trying to do, what I said out to do, because I think most musicians know, sometimes when you try and mix with somebody, it can go completely wrong, you know? 47:22.031 --> 47:26.655 [SPEAKER_02]: They can, like, shape it in a completely different way that just doesn't work, you know, or whatever. 47:27.076 --> 47:30.779 [SPEAKER_02]: So it was such a, a really fun experience to do it that way. 47:32.242 --> 47:51.453 [SPEAKER_01]: If you get nifty with the engineering part of it, which I think all songwriters need to do these days, it's really good for that reason where you can send them, just like you're saying, almost like the cut of a film, and then you can have someone who's an actual expert in color correction, then color, you have the film, and now it looks like a film, it sounds like a... 47:51.533 --> 47:52.813 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. 47:53.214 --> 47:54.314 [SPEAKER_01]: It's so important. 47:54.634 --> 48:00.017 [SPEAKER_01]: I also love hearing you talk about, you know, part of your process, like the walking, walking, 48:01.479 --> 48:04.582 [SPEAKER_01]: it's insane to me how crucial it can be. 48:05.123 --> 48:07.565 [SPEAKER_01]: Let me know if you've experienced it this way. 48:07.726 --> 48:13.792 [SPEAKER_01]: I have never been working on a song and run into a problem and then gone for a walk and not come back with a solution. 48:14.033 --> 48:17.737 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, come back with a solution 100% of the time. 48:18.037 --> 48:18.938 [SPEAKER_01]: It's uncanny. 48:19.078 --> 48:19.299 [SPEAKER_01]: Yep. 48:19.459 --> 48:20.540 [SPEAKER_01]: It's really uncanny, man. 48:21.141 --> 48:21.341 [SPEAKER_02]: Yep. 48:22.895 --> 48:23.715 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what that is. 48:24.016 --> 48:25.256 [SPEAKER_02]: It moves the energy. 48:25.316 --> 48:38.362 [SPEAKER_02]: I try to encourage people like, because I talk with my friends about depression a lot and therapy, and that's one of the first things I usually ask somebody if they're depressed or if they're struggling, I ask them, are you exercising? 48:38.862 --> 48:41.483 [SPEAKER_02]: That's kind of one of the very first things, right? 48:41.523 --> 48:41.964 [SPEAKER_02]: Cause it's like, 48:42.924 --> 48:54.578 [SPEAKER_02]: If you're not getting out there and moving your energy, your energy is stagnant, you know, it's like sitting and just stagnating, you know, and I think, and I try to tell people, like, think of it in a very simple term. 48:54.598 --> 48:56.140 [SPEAKER_02]: You don't have to go out and join a gym. 48:56.400 --> 48:58.923 [SPEAKER_02]: You don't have to go out and bench press 350 pounds. 48:59.244 --> 49:01.526 [SPEAKER_02]: Just literally walk out the door and just... 49:02.367 --> 49:17.562 [SPEAKER_02]: Walk around the block at first and then walk two blocks and then walk three blocks and you don't even have to go to the forest You don't even have to go you know once you get into walking and hopefully you enjoy those things and you want to go out to the forest or you want to go to the beach or out into the wilderness I mean those things are so special too, but 49:18.863 --> 49:22.506 [SPEAKER_02]: For me, I would lose my mind if I didn't go walk every day. 49:22.606 --> 49:30.453 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think I don't know if I would have ever completed any music, because that's such a big part of it, and it always has been. 49:30.473 --> 49:35.998 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just like going for that walk with the thing I'm working on and my headphones, you know, and just going through it. 49:36.018 --> 49:40.001 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's so funny to think of all of the ways, like, from first, like a cassette walk. 49:40.361 --> 49:55.090 [SPEAKER_02]: you know to them like burning CDs you know to them like MP3 is you know all of the ways you know and now there's just a hallucination of this you know digital file that you upload and you take a walk with it or whatever you know it's just it's so crazy but yeah 49:56.371 --> 50:04.537 [SPEAKER_01]: My wife really, she's been a lifelong exercise enthusiast to the point where we refer to her exercise as Xanx. 50:04.717 --> 50:14.504 [SPEAKER_01]: And if she's in a bad place with something with workwise or family wise, inevitably, I'd be like, have you taken your Xanx recently? 50:14.524 --> 50:19.228 [SPEAKER_01]: She's like, oh, I got two days and she should go for run and she'll go, you know, 50:21.069 --> 50:39.548 [SPEAKER_01]: again 100% of the time it works 100% of the time it's amazing yeah yeah what a trip well listen I've heard the first single from the fourth coming album it sounds fantastic I can't wait to hear the rest and it was an honor to have you on the show man thank you so much so much yeah thanks so much for having me talk to you again 50:55.020 --> 50:57.221 [SPEAKER_00]: This week's episode was brought to you by Banzugl. 50:57.602 --> 51:04.786 [SPEAKER_00]: Built by musicians and four musicians, Banzugl is an all-in-one platform to build a beautiful website for your music. 51:05.207 --> 51:13.352 [SPEAKER_00]: Use promo code TWS, the initials of our podcast, TWS, to get 15% off the first year of any new subscription. 51:14.121 --> 51:20.127 [SPEAKER_00]: Jim James' latest album is entitled, Wild Out, available everywhere music is sold or streamed. 51:20.647 --> 51:32.058 [SPEAKER_00]: If before we meet again, you sit down to write, please remember, an expensive drug habit is not a song, a compelling Instagram account is not a song, and most importantly, reverb is not a song. 51:32.678 --> 51:36.702 [SPEAKER_00]: So let all that take care of itself and for you just keep your eye on the song.