[UNKNOWN]: .
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, welcome back to another episode of Friends From Work, a podcast about all things in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and it's a podcast that's hosted by my self-calesch going to well in my longtime friend from work, Robbie Earl, and today we are absolutely honored to be joined by another longtime friend, kind of from work, Dan Gavazden, Dan, welcome back to Friends From Work.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really excited to be back.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm happy to rep the Spider-Man part of the internet and some regards here on the show, so thanks for having me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Local resident Spider-Man expert.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hey, Dan, I've had a really good time following you online.
[SPEAKER_03]: Since the last time we talked about your film education thing, can you tell us a little bit more about that?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, you started a company, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm actually wrapping a shirt for it.
[SPEAKER_01]: See, look at me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good business owner.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, nice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I am.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's funny, I was gonna, I was gonna push back on you saying I've had fun following you on the internet because I feel like my internet presence has like completely dried up because I've become a business owner.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why?
[SPEAKER_01]: I've just been seeing those posts.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well okay, so then that's working at the very least.
[SPEAKER_01]: My Spider-Man stuff has dried up a little bit, you know, Robbie who's been an amazing supporter of my show, which has not stopped in any
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep, where we talk all things spider in for the past 15 years of podcasting lords Robby's been a long time supporter and so anyway the point being I used to post that spider man all the time, but you know starting a new startup is like kind of like
[SPEAKER_01]: 200% of your life.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, I started a new film education kind of business in the sort of like suburbs of Baltimore.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been a film teacher and critic for 20 years.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've been doing it within, you know, public and private education systems for a long time.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I
[SPEAKER_01]: I really think that my approach to teaching and talking about film is really unique.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I was like at some point I was like thinking I got to put my money where my mouth is and right now my money is gone.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I am, it's where it was.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the hope is you spend money to make money.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Two deep into business stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I'm doing like summer camps right now for teenagers getting into sort of
[SPEAKER_01]: filmmaking process from soup to nuts.
[SPEAKER_01]: We make like a short film in two weeks and teach them how to do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's a lot of fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's it's exactly the kind of thing that I got into filmmaking.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because that's another thing I do.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the reason I found one of the filmmaking was the sort of gorilla zero dollars just go out and shoot and tell a story and have fun.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, you know, also a while bringing that professional craft to it, but um, it reminds me of the very level like the writing of it all the way down to like camera work as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: We teach it all in two weeks.
[SPEAKER_01]: They come to us day one and they pitch their their idea for a film and two pitches get chosen and we go, you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's nuts.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, uh-huh, like location scouting set design, you name it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all it's all there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, I won't go too deep into it, but because this is a Marvel film.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, I love it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I will sell my business kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's fun though.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, but yeah, my, my love of filmmaking was like kind of the like, not don't overthink it because we do a lot of thinking, but it's like just the joy of the process itself without the sort of high pressure of like,
[SPEAKER_01]: tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars are behind this and I got to deliver it's just the joy of making something.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's so cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: And for kids who are probably don't have a background in it, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So kind of extra fun for them to be learning about it for the first time.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then maybe you
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, the idealistic way we set off a whole new generation of filmmakers, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's the idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this might not be very like PC anymore, but there's a great movie called Heart of Darkness, which is the making of Apocalypse Now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Have you guys seen it?
[SPEAKER_01]: I know it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well, it's amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just like a peak into truly the heart of darkness of filmmaking, like just like everything that could go wrong on its set and yet result in one of the best movies I've ever made in a while.
[SPEAKER_01]: It looks now, but there's this great like interview in it with France for Copla, which is interesting because I think his wife filmed the movie and he's talking about, you know, like how he is hopeful that one day
[SPEAKER_01]: the sort of professionalism of filmmaking will be shattered by advances in technology that lowers the sort of entry level for people, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, when he was making Apocalypse Now, you know, the money took to get into filmmaking,
[SPEAKER_01]: not to mention that film was astronomical.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was for an elitist class of people to get their hands on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he says, like, I have pine for the days when a super-8 can reconfined its way into, uh, here's the not PC part, uh, into the hands of a little fat girl into Pica Kansas, who will be the next Mozart, uh, you know, like the idea that the democratization of the
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, voices to come out of nowhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think we're seeing that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's YouTube was that, but like what I've really loved about watching film this year is seeing things like obsession, like back rooms.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't really a fan of either film.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were both.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought we're like, okay, but I'm really excited that that generation is getting a chance to bring their voices to the screen.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're coming from the most unexpected places.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's kind of shattering the paradigm of like, that's right, who and what filmmakers can be and what they need to make stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: And my school is kind of a extension of that, I think.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right, admittedly I haven't even seen either those films yet, but I feel the exact same way.
[SPEAKER_03]: Just what it means thematically for the industry is a good thing, I think.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're not bad movies.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're just like, oh, I've been there before, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But like, this is their turn.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, they get to do the things we did before, you know, like, and that's exciting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think one thing we've talked a lot about this year is, you know, that there's the constant kind of AI in the creative world conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it is encouraging.
[SPEAKER_00]: So as people are sort of viewing that as this inevitable thing, you're also seeing films that for better or worse, very much have a creator stamp on them, and I think that in general makes me feel better about where we're heading, especially when you see things that are unexpected in that way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like when you don't see people just trying to chase,
[SPEAKER_00]: some trend or trying to kind of plug in a prompt.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I loved how strange elements of pack rooms were.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And unsettling in that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're also a project that no one would ever have green lit out of nowhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, oh, we're going to do a movie about liminal spaces like that's the more important.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like who's pitching that, you know, and, and that's exciting.
[SPEAKER_01]: And to your point, I mean, obviously the Odyssey has been such a huge hit.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's, you know, it's not for the stars.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, I don't even think it's for the IP, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's for the the person making it, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Chris from Roland.
[SPEAKER_01]: is the biggest name in Hollywood, right, maybe other than Spider-Man, right, which maybe goes against my point.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like to the point of Spider-Man, like we're going to talk about brand new day and, you know, my feelings about it, which I think are complicated.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whether it's true or not, that brand new day is a more sort of like artist-driven hand-crafted experience, the marketing wanted you to believe that, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like all of the marketing of brand new day was about the filmmakers, the real costumes, the, you know, how much character and effects swing in.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and like even the color grading, it's like, oh, we actually got someone in to give this movie shadows like it's communicating like fit like you know like indie film or or like something that marvel we're focusing back on the craft instead of I hate to use the word Slop because I don't think that that's true, but like the sort of Hollywood, you know factory stuff that like I think
[SPEAKER_01]: I know you guys are in the Marvel show, so maybe I won't be popular saying this, but like I think that when they were overwhelmed with the amount of content that they needed to make
[SPEAKER_01]: They kind of fell back into routine, the kind of things that they can't possibly be overseen with the level of care that their former projects I thought had.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that a huge part of the marketing for the Spider-Man movie wasn't even like, you're excited to see Spider-Man.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's you're excited to see Marvel doing the filmmaker stuff they used to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: So do you disagree with that marketing, though?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, do you feel like the end result wasn't that?
[SPEAKER_01]: I, well, that, so, asking about the end result, it's hard for me to say.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there are elements that feel that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: But for, and I'm sure we'll get into the broader conversation about the movie, but like, for all of the images that I was shown of Spider-Man swinging through the city and jumping on tanks for real,
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't feel like in watching those sequences that I felt that felt any less CGI heavy, then the previous ones.
[SPEAKER_01]: In some instances for sure, like the costume is real, and that makes a big difference.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like seeing Peter Parker's eyes behind the lenses subtly is a beautiful thing, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, and it gives a life
[SPEAKER_01]: an often dorky life to that character like the suit looks goofy, you know, yeah, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like you know, like you know, like you know, like you know, like you know, like you know, like you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that that makes a big difference.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's why they thought like Holland's face didn't need to be seen as much as Spider-Man in this movie.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that works too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you can still feel him emoting the ice coin aren't quite as expressive, I think.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this at least maybe that's my read like the I mean the I mean for sure literally the articulation is not as exaggerated.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think he's wasn't right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like they're still doing that movement, but it's not quite as like deadpoolish if you will.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, sort of Tony still designed ones.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't now I feel like I'm going down a rabbit.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have mixed feelings on the sort of like result of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Overall, I do think it feels more hand crafted than the previous ones.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I also think that like probably lessons were learned along the way that like, hey, it's cool for us to shoot this with him swinging over the tanks.
[SPEAKER_01]: But maybe Watts was more right than we admit.
[SPEAKER_01]: And some CGI stuff needs to be done to really make it look good.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that stuff could come.
[SPEAKER_01]: He did die on that hill and I was like, he was a tyrant.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like there's several moments where Spidey swings down onto the street in the movie.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it just looks like he's being sort of like lowered by like a wire.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas I think about like something and like the John wants like like far from home far from where's and daya and him are swinging through the streets at the end.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's doing these complicated dismounts.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's more stylish and feels more natural for the character than like sort of a guy descending onto the set.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, you may like the sort of like artifice of the practicality of that, but if I have to really be honest, I bought into the sort of more spider-manly, arachnid dismounts in those movies than I did in this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't think it's a complete,
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, hey, you know what, this is a 100% a slam dunk change in direction, you know, um, I actually think that's your question.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I agree with that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think in general, because I, like, there are some sequences at the end of far from a far from home in particular.
[SPEAKER_03]: that looks spectacular and there are a couple times in this movie where it does almost catch your eye that it looks different.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do think it's not 100% one way or the other because some of the fighting like the choreography I think looks better at times like especially when he's on the ground already or like moving up to a wall that I think isn't improvement but I'm with you that sometimes the swinging is not always just objectively better and I like you calling out the dismounts because I know what you're talking about.
[SPEAKER_03]: You can almost see where
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you can.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you know, I guess it's kind of an argument.
[SPEAKER_03]: You could also make the argument that that is kind of what it would be like, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: He's actually kind of on a wire in that he's holding his webbing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we've been trained through the watch films that that webbing has a little more elasticity.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why I mean, you know, then a wire does, you know, for dampen the ways of this that I love.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this stuff is interesting because like, you know, I often look at Jurassic Park and I don't think dinosaurs have been done better than that and you could say the technology and all the stuff has gotten better over the years, but like that was a movie that knew how to use its visual effects even if the computer technology wasn't quite as sophisticated and how it chose to blend puppetry and digital effects has never been more effective, I think.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, if you can name a dinosaur movie that does dinosaurs better, I would be surprised.
[SPEAKER_01]: As excited as I am for the end of Oak Street, it's not really for the dinosaur effects.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, but like even things like the swinging close-ups like I'll be the first person to make fun of the spider dummies in the Sam Raimi movie where it's clearly MJ's at holding on to a fake
[SPEAKER_01]: But the blending of that and the background is more believable to me in that movie from the late 90s than a lot of the close-up swinging shots in this movie where it really looks green screeny and it doesn't mesh.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe that's just my perception, but those things do bleed into how much you're willing to believe in the world or what you're willing to overlook.
[SPEAKER_01]: For some reason,
[SPEAKER_01]: distracting, then like, like volume work or green screen work, I don't know why, but like, that's just my truth.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is, you know, I recently rewatched the Rami movies and I, I'm always struck by how awkward his, his jumps are off the ground.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, they're incredibly awkward.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I still don't know that they figured that out entirely.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think part of the benefit they have with the current iteration is I think Holland's own
[SPEAKER_00]: sensibilities where he has a certain kind of athleticism that he's bringing to it that I don't think Toby ever claimed to.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so he does move a bit more, and you know, I actually think Andrew Garfield did that very well too, but I think that's one benefit, but yeah, there is still a bit of that kind of static.
[SPEAKER_00]: feel.
[SPEAKER_00]: Whereas I, you know, I think one strange thing when we're talking about John Moss is I think everybody likes to think of certain moments in no way home as representative of his entire time with the character.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that was such a unique movie for a lot of reasons, not least of which was that it was made during the pandemic.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think if you look at
[SPEAKER_00]: There, I mean, that is not a movie that feels over the top CGI to me when I'm watching it, even recognizing that it is, in fact, very CGI heavy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's seen where you first see and kind of swing around Queens and help in the old lady with the choro and everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's a reason why that movie worked with so many people the way it did and why it kind of sold the friendly neighborhood spider-man feel.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm glad that you that you are not in the camp that everything John wants did was wasn't inherently
[SPEAKER_00]: cheaper.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, let me go on the record if I haven't said it on here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Spider-Man Homecoming is my favorite Marvel Studios movie.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, Michael Keaton.
[SPEAKER_03]: God, that's so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I don't think it's flawless.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I could point out some really bad CGI in that movie.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the shot where Peter flips onto the car in the Stanley scene.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just like makes me shudder every time I say it's super weird.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's very weird.
[SPEAKER_03]: But that is crazy small amount of times that happens in that movie.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no, I think the other stuff is incredible.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like him crawling on the outside of that plane is an amazing visual effect.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just watched it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it really holds up, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's why I won't like hyper focus on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I actually found the use of CGI in brand new day more distracting than I did in homecoming.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's, you know, implementation for me, homecoming does sell Peter Parker as a person and it's not even, I mean, I know a lot of people like to rag on that movie and especially far from home for Iron Man Junior stuff and all that and like.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not really the depiction of Peter Parker as a Spider-Man guy that like I was hoping for, but the portrait that it makes of a character is very full and rich.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's when the story it tells is
[SPEAKER_01]: problem in my mind, the most character oriented story in a singular movie in a Marvel studios movie and that's probably why it's my favorite.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it has the most compelling arc for a character within a singular movie and they commit to that arc.
[SPEAKER_01]: the most of like any of of their movies and it doesn't I don't find like the Ironman stuff really is like compromising more than it is like hey this is the authority figure and this is right from about a guy who wants to skip ahead in life and and leave his current station in life and you know go on to be a superhero instead of embracing who he is in the moment that he's in right and
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, as grave as a culture scene is it's one of my favorite scenes in that car.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: The scene where Peter Parker denies the suit at the end is maybe the most fist pumping moment for me in the entire Marvel library like look.
[SPEAKER_01]: I jumped out of my seat when Captain America got the hammer, but I triple jumped or I leapt into the sky and shot a web in that way, I'll have my seat.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Go web's go.
[SPEAKER_01]: I say that as Gwen Stacy's father in, you know, you're really just surprised by how he's a friend.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you or your listeners know, but the character of Gwen Stacy's father and Spidey and his amazing friends and Disney Plus is me.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is very weird.
[SPEAKER_03]: I tell you, I've heard you reference this on the show.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have a half year old, and I tend to really in percent know who you're talking about.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I have not seen the show yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: The character is a little too much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly like me.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's exactly right.
[SPEAKER_01]: To the point that he is wearing the outfit, I wore at my wedding, which was my profile picture online.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was responsible for this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wait, are you saying there's an actual connection here that they don't know?
[SPEAKER_02]: But it is so uncanny, it has to be.
[SPEAKER_02]: It does look like you.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is, I mean, it's hard to, you have been in the Spider-Man ecosystem now for a big decade.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in
[SPEAKER_00]: which so is that so it is is the character again.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not that we have to go down this rabbit hole.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's not a police officer.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's not okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, he's not.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's in the first season.
[SPEAKER_01]: He has one line and he says, I'm George Stacy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And my current suspicion is that they just had to make a model for that character for a Thanksgiving episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: And didn't want all of the characters to only have like, like, like, you know, like, like, like, heard have another father figure, but they already introduced the mom as a police officer.
[SPEAKER_02]: So someone was like, oh, it'll be funny if we make it again.
[SPEAKER_02]: His mom's a detective.
[SPEAKER_03]: Her mom's a detective.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think Miles is dad as a police officer.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think they already felt like the space was playing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's fair.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, and so like I guess they must have thought oh this character's never coming back.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's gonna say one line But then in the second season he came back and he's like a character on the show and in the opening credits and it looks it's me It's very weird.
[SPEAKER_01]: I Look people who can say I'm a narcissist all day one.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's undeniable Yeah, but anyway, I'm doing it right now Complete side track Yeah, hello
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, bring us back, Roddy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, so we're talking about the watch trilogy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I do think one thing I was struck by with brain new days.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we watched the whole film.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: OK, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Slimein.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is wild.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: And also there's no analog to that in the comics.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I know where else they're going.
[SPEAKER_01]: No analog.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it literally is the outfit I was wearing at my wedding down to every color choice and outfit selection.
[SPEAKER_03]: That is, that's really, it's really funny to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sorry.
[SPEAKER_03]: Keep going.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're back on track.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I, I'm always.
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess not a maze because it makes a lot of sense, but I'm struck by how much every Spider-Man or live action, well, every film really has referenced to some degree businesses work on ultimate Spider-Man.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the first rainy film, the first Garfield film, really the entire Watts trilogy, and I think that there are bits of it streamed throughout the others as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't feel that as much and they really made a point to make that watch trilogy an extended origin story which I think works well in the end and they kind of are trying to earn the right to get him out of that phase.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think there was a lot of talk about a movie now where we see an older Spider-Man again for the first time in a while.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that was the promise of the end of no way home, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that last 30 seconds, like, made me cry just like on its own.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh my gosh, we're finally, we're still gonna see Spider-Man.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, so I guess my question is, do you think that they delivered on that promise of moving on to a, you know, no pun intended new version of the character?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes and no, and I, for a title like brand new day, I wish it was more brand new, honestly, like I think there is a sort of like, I don't think it's entirely superficial, but I think there is a bit of a tone change.
[SPEAKER_01]: but I don't think they do enough work to establish a new setting, a new paradigm for Peter Parker in a way that is like completely full-throated.
[SPEAKER_01]: And to the point that like, you know, your mileage may vary on this.
[SPEAKER_01]: It brings back,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, MJ and Ned in a way that kind of says, Hey, we kind of want to have our cake and eat it to you know like we don't really want to compromise because we like these characters and my favorite parts of brand new day are with those characters like to be honest like I right we haven't really said our overall thoughts on the film and I'm really sure how you guys are you know releasing this episode and what
[SPEAKER_01]: you're calling it, but like if it is a review necessarily, but like I found the film pretty dull and often boring, but when Zendaya, you know, and Jacob battle on her on screen, to me it roared back the life.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I could have spent an hour in their apartment watching them build legos, and I would have preferred that to watching Spider-Man try to attach
[SPEAKER_01]: ships to people and and things like that, which is fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's all part of the superhero genre, but to me, the sort of like familiarity of those characters and the performances and the rich history there,
[SPEAKER_01]: was great.
[SPEAKER_01]: And really, like, it just soared back to life for me in those limited moments.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't feel like I got a sense of who Peter Parker is in a rich way without them and separate from them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know part of the story is, well, Peter Parker's gone and he's all
[SPEAKER_01]: I know there's been a lot of people like online like, oh, what Peter's job, like, and you could say, oh, that doesn't really matter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, he just makes money somehow and can afford all that tech.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it doesn't necessarily matter except that like things like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think do matter here for understanding what the trade office for this Peter, what is this new life that he's built for himself where I guess he can afford flowers to go on May's grave every week.
[SPEAKER_01]: Flowers are not cheap people.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's true, you know, like, and you can shout that to my wife too, okay, no, but like, and that largely I think contributed to why I found the film kind of dull and often not engaging is because
[SPEAKER_01]: like Spider-Man, the themes of Spider-Man are all about trade-offs, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like Peter Parker's life is going to suffer when he has to be Spider-Man.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Spider-Man's noble pursuits will suffer because he has to be Peter Parker, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: We, you know, so much of this movie is like a sort of like we have Spider-Man too at home, which is maybe a little too critical of it, but it's doing the a lot of the same beats
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I'm giving up being Spider-Man and Peter Parker's life is going great, but the city is falling to crime and I'm losing my powers, and this is, oh no, I'm getting new powers and Peter Parker is going away, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the, yeah, yeah, the end to the ending.
[SPEAKER_01]: But Spider-Man 2 in last time, I think really does, and immensely, and this is hard to compare Spider-Man 2 as one of the best of all time, movies period.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it does an amazing job of establishing that balance for like what Peter stands to lose, what the city stands to lose, and all of the forces that are making each trade off.
[SPEAKER_01]: When he chooses to go after the car
[SPEAKER_01]: theater performance.
[SPEAKER_01]: We know what he stands to lose by going to stop those crux.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and I did feel that here because I didn't know enough about this brand new day.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so to me, look, the box office will say one thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: But to me, I don't feel like I entered into a new world with Peter Parker enough to support the story that we were told being told in it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is it weird for me to say that I agree with that?
[SPEAKER_03]: But it just doesn't bother me as much.
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's totally fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can only express my opinion, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, and opinions are
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, like the money question is a big one or like if it truly was a brand new day, I'm with you, you could have reset where he just never makes another interaction with MJ and Ned.
[SPEAKER_03]: He has to get a job.
[SPEAKER_03]: He doesn't have an apartment that has even like the kind of computer level tech that he has.
[SPEAKER_03]: and you could have just totally gone that way and they didn't, but it just doesn't bother me as much.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think probably because of some of those other parts.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm not disappointed in what we didn't get.
[SPEAKER_01]: Although I thought the promise of no way home was really exciting to have like a totally stripped down spider man with like...
[SPEAKER_01]: the whole weight of the world kind of against him, you know, like, uh, I mean, because here, even the city loves him, you know, you know, right, which like, you know, brings up questions of like, they don't remember Peter Parker, but like, did Mysterio happen?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do they remember that spider man attacked?
[SPEAKER_01]: all those cities like like was that event just a fully erased from people's minds like does the daily bugle still exist did Jenna have that as a platform to like sell whatever he was selling a newsman subscriptions what you probably didn't even watch this but I'm also a little bit
[SPEAKER_03]: concerned about Daredevil born again season two is all about anti vigilantes and vigilantes and how the city stands on those things yeah and then there was very little addressing where the city's temperature is on that if that makes sense for sure I haven't seen it I would like to see it I have a word about those I believe you
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, he runs his campaign on there's no vigilantes is even a reference to a guy swinging around with webs So they're like setting up, but that's the case, but then you leave that and I don't know Robby if you felt that that didn't feel like the same New York here as far as the city's perception of what's going on Yeah, well, and I mean in fairness, I and we've talked about this Really since the the Disney plus era started.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't I think Marvel has you yet to
[SPEAKER_00]: really make use of the connections between the shows and and the movies.
[SPEAKER_00]: They there are moments where it feels like they kind of have have like soft balls and they don't take advantage of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so this to me is certainly an example like that it seems like you know that they are better at the Giving him the key is from Daredevil born again.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the stand-in kind of mayor right so like in that way It's connected, you know, but doesn't have the same feel now did did I don't want to go down this road because I I want to return to finishing my thought, but I am curious Did daredevil born again in a four year
[SPEAKER_01]: because I know there's a big time jump here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, where does that exist?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, maybe the city changed its mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I guess the, the, that's a good point.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a great question.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know the exact time line.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm thinking about like the assistant.
[SPEAKER_01]: I hate that I really asked that question for.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's giving him the key, so she's still in office to some degree.
[SPEAKER_02]: And four years that were, yeah, yeah, yeah, that could be.
[SPEAKER_02]: And who knows with New York City Mayor's Bloomberg got like three terms?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And honestly, maybe you have a sentimentist chain.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it's been three and a half years or whatever.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the sentiment is changed.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And honestly part of the show is that there's obviously a push to both sides.
[SPEAKER_03]: So maybe just the side that was pro heroes wins out over three years.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like we're in the changing political paradigm right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: So who knows.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's probably.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, but back.
[SPEAKER_01]: Back to my point.
[SPEAKER_01]: I. I'm not mourning the loss of what no way home seemed to promise.
[SPEAKER_01]: What I'm saying is they could keep Jacob and and and day and all of that stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just wanted like that doesn't bother me because those are the parts of the movie I like the most.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't understand the current place for Peter, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, to me, that's not fleshed out enough to base the, like, themeatics and plot elements of this movie on top of.
[SPEAKER_03]: and him missing MJ him missing May is not enough for you to fill that you're talking more the practical side of like his job is his money etc.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean I think it's everything right but like that that that's part of it and that you know that we knew he was going to mourn his aunt he was going to I mean there's this weird thing like
[SPEAKER_01]: Because in day a left, he's like suddenly decided that he's going to live a sexless life because all these women are like hitting on him and he's like, I can't, you know, and it's like, you're in your 20s dude, like, have a night one night stand out the other person, you know, like, boy, the M, the M to you is not ready for black cat.
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, like, you know, like, or any of these characters, but anyway, maybe that's the next one is like Peter Peter discovers his sex life in the next one, but I mean,
[SPEAKER_01]: even that would have been rich.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, hey, like I can have these relationships, but they can't last beyond that, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or like, I can't stay at a job for too long because they're gonna start asking about my social security number, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: showing that it's living a life of a transient will fill could fill in a lot of gaps for us.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like what they gave us was a little bit, but it was superficial.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not enough to sort of give us an understanding of like the day-to-day thought process the Peter has to go into that has convinced him that being Spider-Man is the only thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like for example, like if you're
[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to get hurt all the time, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's going to wear on you physically and the only evidence we get of that is during this montage of one shot if I'm taking like Adville, you know, and it's like that's the worst that happens from being Spider-Man in 247.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know he starts to mutate and all that other stuff, but like there's four years of history here that's supposed to be grounding his choices in this movie.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll stop talking.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, no, I don't think you're talking.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know for you, but I like you talking.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to stop doing that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I do think that what they are trying to show is him on the other side of the, I guess that the fuller, great power, great responsibility, lesson where, I mean that's one of the
[SPEAKER_00]: sort of in home or in civil war, feel like he has learned that lesson.
[SPEAKER_00]: He kind of paraphrases it to Tony Stark, but you, you know, famously never get any real direct references to Uncle Ben.
[SPEAKER_01]: Except for maybe that luggage that gets blown out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, but, you know, like you know, he died and it seems as though that had some impact, but you never really know how and so in some ways,
[SPEAKER_00]: You certainly get the line itself from me, but I think that it sort of makes sense that he did not have that lesson fully, because that's not, you know, homecoming is kind of a different lesson than that, which I think is nice.
[SPEAKER_00]: It sets it apart from, you know, the first Remy film, the first Garfield, the first web film.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think now we are seeing him
[SPEAKER_00]: take himself very seriously and take the job very seriously.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think I can buy this idea that Peter Parker, he doesn't think that he can allow himself the kind of frivolity of any sort of pleasure.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, because he's living this very Spartan existence.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that the end of the movie, when a person tries to say I and face tools all over the city, but fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I mean, and that is, again, that's, that's where the money problem bothers me a little bit more.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think if, uh, because he has to be getting some of that stuff from somewhere, but he could still could that not head can and be a Tony Stark connection still.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know, Spiderman ran into my hate that, but is it possible that there was some money left over or some of the tech that he still had in May's apartment or happy is a part of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have no one really don't care.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was mostly joking.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's also 20, 28 who knows what the world will be like.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then maybe we're all doing this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I, you know, maybe we're always, because I remember Caroline talking about after far from home, like the swinging scene you were referencing, how excited we were to kind of get that version of Spider-Man and then know a home really explore something different.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so there is this little bit of, you know, every Spider-Man movie has a promise and the question is whether the next film actually delivers on that.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, Holland's whole thing is the brand new day is in the last scene of the movie.
[SPEAKER_00]: My sense is that that's a setting up a dynamic that would feel more like, okay, he's he's acknowledging that he will be both Peter and Spider-Man, and he's acknowledging that he can't just
[SPEAKER_00]: kind of brute force his way through life by himself and they're doing a lot of the kind of the need for people in your life, which will inherently reintroduce the tension of like in trying to escape from that, he just became a solo figure that only connection was the you know in my PD.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so now if he is bringing other people back in,
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, you know, you seem doing the secret handshake and stuff with Ned like it, it seems like they're recognizing that there has to be a version of it that's a little bit, you know, somewhere in the middle of where he was and the was trilogy, which was
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say almost intentionally irresponsible in the way that they were representing him, like in that he didn't really fully understand the weight of what it was to be Spider-Man in part because he had someone like Tony Stark to fall back on or someone like who he thought was Nick Fury or Dr.
[SPEAKER_00]: Strange.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think I was okay with them making this heavier in that regard, but I agree with you and that I think that they need to
[SPEAKER_00]: now figure out what the next iteration I think can't be more of that, and I don't know what that means.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just wanting, I just want to spend a conventional Spider-Man movie in this series at some point in time, and that's, again, not to like say, homecoming my favorite, it's not conventional in any way, I mean it has a lot of the trappings of it, and I do think
[SPEAKER_01]: like responsibility in in in in some ways, but it's mostly about the theme of kind of believing in yourself and where you're currently at, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like when he lifts that weight off of him after he's been buried by the vulture, it's because he's embracing, you know, who he is, you know, and not the specter of the costume, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the, you know, all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I don't disagree with you about the ending.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought that was really touching.
[SPEAKER_01]: The handshake was beautiful.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and all of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess them, like, for me, this, like, the biggest, the climactic, the biggest moment in this film,
[SPEAKER_01]: is the, I'm both moment, and that didn't work for me, like it should, it's, it's a smart moment, and it calls back to amazing spider-man comics.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how familiar you are, Kyle, but I know Robbie at least follows my show, so I'm not crazy for familiar, but I'm listening.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so like JMS, you know, JMS, John McClure's Institute, so his run opens with this, what is probably my favorite modern Spider-Man story, which is coming home, and it's the big fight between Spider-Man and Moreland, who is this sort of,
[SPEAKER_01]: wizard guy right vampire yeah like alternate dimensional vampire that feeds on the sort of like life force of super powered beings he would later become an inheritor or whatever it's a that I'd rather not talk about that unless it's the original story but
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's a really like a simple thing, and the whole like toss up of that story is, you know, between like Peter finds out from this guy, Ezekiel, who also has spider powers that like, he is the, it basically, the latest in a line of like, totemic figures that take on the mantle of the spider totem, and that his powers didn't necessarily come from science.
[SPEAKER_01]: They came from mysticism and magic.
[SPEAKER_01]: And people hate that, and I get why they hate that, the idea that Peter is destined in some way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: The end of the story is that like as Peter is on the edge of death, he can't beat this unbeatable guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: He like lures him to like a nuclear facility and basically injects himself with a lethal dose of radioactive poison and then Morlin tries to eat him and ends up killing himself because he absorbs all the radiation and like explodes or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Spider-Man's line as he's punching him full of radioactivity is, I'm not pure, which is to say, I'm not this pure totem.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am a child of both mysticism and science, and I can be both.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the thing that powers me is that I'm not this perfect person.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not this thing that you think I am, you know, like I'm a flawed, you know, creation, you know, and
[SPEAKER_01]: I have to think that I'm both line comes because it's staged very similarly as to how it is in this movie, except for me, the reason it didn't work and I have to ask myself why didn't it work?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because when I'm watching the movie, I'm registering like, oh, that really rung hollow for me, why?
[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason I don't think it works gets back to what I was saying about this trade-off is,
[SPEAKER_01]: The more he goes into the world of like being just Spider-Man, the more he gets these deadly arachnid powers of, you know, that are causing him to maybe inadvertently hurt people, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And we can see how powerful that becomes and he's filled with rage, and he's losing the human element of himself.
[SPEAKER_01]: But again, Spider-Man is all about compromise, like you can't
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like maybe you have to balance it or whatever, but you can't like have one thing or the other and by saying I'm both and then choosing to keep those powers, but also having the ability to like because the next image we see is him throwing a hand soldier towards a spike and then stopping at the last second meaning I'm powerful enough to kill you, but I'm choosing not to.
[SPEAKER_01]: is like, oh, I get to have the best of both worlds.
[SPEAKER_01]: I get to be super powerful, and I get to be moral.
[SPEAKER_01]: And to me, like, that's like,
[SPEAKER_01]: a double victory and Spider-Man is a character that like never gets the double victory.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, that part's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, and the best Spider-Man movies are kind of the ones where he loses at the end, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like Spider-Man 1, he loses the girl.
[SPEAKER_01]: Spider-Man 2, even though he gets the girl and saves the villain, it's a melancholy ending as he has to leap out the window.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's where you get the look of her kind of like, oh, this is our life now, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, like, and like, even, you know, homecoming.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a hero.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no, my aunt discovered like, and that's going to ruin my life, which is why I think far from home with a little bit disappointing that she's just kind of like on board, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, it just kind of throws him a win here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, in a way that like I was like, oh, but that kind of like undercells the whole idea that like,
[SPEAKER_01]: you kind of have to find balance and that means trade off.
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, I didn't even end the movie with the city like loving him.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's like, hey, you can embrace violence, but just so long as you don't kill anybody, and you will get rewarded with all of the riches and your friends back and the city, and maybe the next movie will tell us that like, actually, that was all in a rush, and it's going to all fall apart, because that you need conflict, but it feels a little false to me in the moment of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's reasonable.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do think, though, that I need to give some more thought to the way the mutation plays into the dichotomy between the Peter and Spider parts of himself because it is interesting
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess couched in the I am both Peter Parker and Spider-Man Realization, which in some ways, leaning into the mutation, which seemed to be embracing the whole spider element.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's kind of there are two things at play there.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I do think that the celebration piece and the emotional climax I felt of the movie
[SPEAKER_00]: which that to me does feel like a like it's a classic Spider-Man heroic move which it's not as though he hasn't been doing those things I guess for the last four years but I do think that in him doing it there and the way that they're making this about
[SPEAKER_00]: community and the need for some kind of connection to other people and the way that that both impacts, say to Zinc's character and John Bernthol's, I think that works for me a little bit separately from the both moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: I agree with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you mind if I speak about violence in these movies a little bit?
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't know if you guys do not mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you guys have talked about like violence as a theme in the Spider-Man movies in the MCU, but not really.
[SPEAKER_01]: So me it's a very clear element to these movies.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it leans into that moment you're talking about with Sadie Sink.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I have some mixed feelings about the depiction of Jean Grey in this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know she's a complicated character,
[SPEAKER_01]: how much you can sort of walk that character back from having civilians walking front of cars and get killed and cops shooting other cops, no matter how much you feel about the American police system you know, in whichever way you feel about it, I do think like she straight up murders people and called blood in very troubling ways that will be hard.
[SPEAKER_01]: to rejuvenate her.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think from, but you know, yeah, is it possible that's the genesis of why eventually people won't like mutants, you know, is it possible they're setting that up for 10 years down the road?
[SPEAKER_03]: Why the public has turned against mutants and not against the Avengers as an example?
[SPEAKER_01]: i mean i think i think that's totally fair and i think they would be justified frankly right um uh uh and i also think the chip that spidey in vents is going to be the thing that like is curing shirts um for sure yeah and that'll be interesting because i also think there's a very real chance they tell us spider manners and mutant despite in the comics
[SPEAKER_01]: being labeled as the non-mutant superhero, but fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whatever, you know, they're going to do whatever they need to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not, I'm not even going to fight that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like this is a different interpretation of the character.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm fine with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like looking into this interpretation of the character, so like going back to homecoming.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you watch any of the fight sequences in homecoming,
[SPEAKER_01]: he doesn't swing a fist in the entire movie, he doesn't punch anyone, he never exerts any physical actions against another person in that movie.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of like a monster cut and ask in how it does it, he like redirects their punches like when he's stopping the
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the ATM ad him and he dodges it or grabs it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But even when they're trying to punch him, he just like, you can want him to redirect their fists into them into each other, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: He never punches anyone in that entire movie.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no physical damage being done to another person.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, and yours and you're making a point that that was very intentional a hundred percent intentional that and it's like coach that way we're not on a hundred percent.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, it because it continues through the films so in far from home, that's also true.
[SPEAKER_02]: The only thing he's destroyed in that movie, the drone's about drones right and just the stops the bullet from Mysterio correct.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, he's not shooting it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he doesn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: He just, he's trying to protect him in himself in some way.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's self defense, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like any harm done to Mysterio is all self-inflicted, right, and then blamed, blamed on him, obviously, right, which is another very intentional choice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I mean, again, you're making a superhero movie.
[SPEAKER_01]: Superhero was fight things, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so then we get to know a home and that remains true through know a home until a specific moment, which is, uh, the Spidey Sense goes off in the apartment and, you know, like, you know, like a goblin's back or whatever it is, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you get the brutal functioning scene in the hallway where he is unleashing his punches on Norman's face and Norman is just smiling because he's gotten this pure,
[SPEAKER_01]: character to participate in violence, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Something that Spider-Man has not done before.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the ultimate victory.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is can I corrupt?
[SPEAKER_01]: this, this hero.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's very, very joker-esque.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, except for in that series Batman had killed because he got ready for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's complicated.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, uh, can I pause you real quick?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: To that point, is that a representation of what we find in the comics?
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not an avid comics reader.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going through some of them.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is that how Spider-Man is mostly portrayed in the comics?
[SPEAKER_03]: No, Spider-Man punches all the time.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, this was an intentional film choice
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, but, you know, and especially if you're reading the sort of like Joe Kelly run right now and the past couple runs some people like have real problems with this, but like there's a whole arc where Norman has kind of been cured of his goblin and he's working with Spider-Man and it's all about the redemption of Norman Osborn as a as a person and the idea that Spider-Man at his core essence believes in the redemptive abilities of our capacity for these villains and it's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: for all of the villains in the movies for the most part.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if you think about all the more gene.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like let's go back to the first Spider-Man movie with Ramey, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Peter is always like begging for Norman to turn that to step back, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And even after Norman gets stabbed through the middle, his final line
[SPEAKER_01]: shows his humanity, which is, don't tell Harry, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, like, we realize that there was a real capacity for good in Norman in some way that was shrouded by this goblin persona.
[SPEAKER_01]: That in his final moments, he does the thing that we thought he was incapable of, which is caring about his son Harry, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And how Harry will receive the news, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Have you played the Insomniac video games?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes or no?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and I think the first one is brilliant.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like the second one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: My problems with them are more from a gameplay element than a story element.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think they have the most fun character in video games to ever play as with the best control system like ever devised and really boring level design, but that's a whole other topic.
[SPEAKER_01]: I agree with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, um, but I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's true of most insomniac games even ratchet and clank.
[SPEAKER_01]: But, uh, okay, I'm like, I had a sense of his body.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, I played all their games like their characters and are really fun to play.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, ratchets got a really cool guns, and it's really fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like,
[SPEAKER_01]: the sandboxes are often very boring.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so by the way, I was thinking more from even the Peter and Doc Ock relationship, even at the very end, it's like, how could you?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I was still your friend, I didn't want to do any of this.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a core part of this because Peter sees, not only are they father figures to him, he sees himself in them, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And he has to believe in his own ability to be redeemed after his actions that cost Uncle Ben to die, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So if he can't believe in redemption for his villains, how can he believe in redemption for himself, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a really important element to him, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like Doc Ock, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: In the final moment, Doc Ock doesn't die of villain.
[SPEAKER_01]: He dies a hero, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, he talks his arms down, listen to me, and the movie, okay, yeah, I'm gonna, yeah, sorry, in the movie, I'm gonna drown this thing in the sea, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And it culminates as much as you may or may not like it, and you know, I didn't like it initially, although I've come to respect it a bit,
[SPEAKER_01]: and the intention behind it is that in Spider-Man 3, we find out that Sandman actually was the one that killed his uncle.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what does that movie end with?
[SPEAKER_01]: He forgives Sandman and says, you know, go make something of your life and Sandman floats away.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's the fulfillment of a redemptive arc of him saying revenge isn't the right way to go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Allowing for redemption is the way that we heal everyone, right, including Harry, who has a redemptive moment at the end of that movie, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's only the truly dark revenge-filled person in Eddie Brock, who is intentionally set up as a mirror to Peter Parker, right, in that movie.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's the one that's obsessed with revenge enough that it gets him with the symbiote and he kills himself.
[SPEAKER_01]: Diving after the symbiot because it's his shot at revenge revenge is self-destructive and redemption is healing right that's the whole thematic point of that first rainy trilogy in my mind.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, I have a follow-up question about I'm not going to stop you yet.
[SPEAKER_03]: Keep going about violence.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, and I have one final follow-up question that'll be up, sorry.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so let's follow that into no way home, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because that Toby McGuire comes back, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So if we pick up, Tom Holland is punching Willem Defoe in the face, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And Aunt May gets killed and it sets him on a revenge arc, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: He is going to go and kill Norman Osborne, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So whatever, they all do the team up thing, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[SPEAKER_01]: They joke about web shooters and all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he gets down into the basin of the statue of liberty or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: And
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's holding like calf shields.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're in his shield or something like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's falling.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's falling off.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's falling down.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he takes the goblin glider and he's about to kill Norman with it fulfilling his revenge arc and Toby comes in and stops him and says basically says, I got revenge.
[SPEAKER_01]: I killed the burglar, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I got my revenge and it didn't heal me, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: You need to make a different choice, and which is a moment I love, but Robby has told me you do not like, so I'm sitting here in anticipation.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can't.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm mixed on it because I, I, um...
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like it cheats Tom Holland Spider-Man, a little bit out of the self-revelation that revenge is hollow.
[SPEAKER_01]: That he should make a difference to it.
[SPEAKER_02]: What's that?
[SPEAKER_01]: That he was actually going to do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: That he's actually going to do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like someone else comes in and kind of takes it out of his hands for him and stops him.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it would have been richer for that character, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: see Tom, you know, a Toby McGuire's Spider-Man knowing that he is haunted by this and make the choice to stop rather than having him come in and stop him.
[SPEAKER_01]: That he's self-realizes right.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is not worth it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that would have been a richer way to do it than to sort of, it doesn't fully cheat it because he does follow it up by like he could've kept stabbing him, but instead he takes the cure and he stabs him with the cure, right, and he'll snore him.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it still gets there.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just,
[SPEAKER_01]: To me, it robs the character of the self-actualization of realizing that revenge is wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: He kind of has to have someone come and tell him.
[SPEAKER_01]: And OK, that's fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: The movie is about mentors and all of that stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's grown on me over time.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's not necessarily how I would have done it, which the world doesn't need me controlling these things.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, yeah, okay, so I have a couple of stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, but so he doesn't choose revenge.
[SPEAKER_01]: He does choose redemption heals Norman and sends him back in time to get killed anyway If you believe that he's a reinserted moment before his death.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how that works out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I guess if they're yes somehow them being cured means they won't be
[SPEAKER_00]: kill.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know how many of them will go down the path as far as they did in the original movies.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's the point of it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: So like they don't get there.
[SPEAKER_03]: They don't get to making the dock-ock arms, et cetera, because you've cured them before that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's not we're thinking about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be like what Nigel Exposition from the Austin Powers movies have like just enjoy yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't think about this to you, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, revenge, you know, and violence is a tool of revenge is not healing to the world, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, as portrayed through those three movies, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But then you get to this movie and
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it kind of has some thoughts about violence.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he's older, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: He's in an older world and maybe that's the change.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now these are the adults like the world is violent and he's going to have to deal with like that he can't be entirely pure, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or like because he can't actually solve the world that way, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And
[SPEAKER_01]: And he, you know, and then he starts getting these arachnipowers and the first thing they do is they cause him to hurt someone who's a bystander, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: They may help him win the fight, but he gets really worried about hurting someone who's a bystander.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so he's right there, that's us, that's a scene that
[SPEAKER_03]: goes still with what you're saying, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like he's traumatized essentially.
[SPEAKER_02]: I agree.
[SPEAKER_03]: That he hurt somebody and like, oh, no, if I don't stop this, it's going to hurt other people.
[SPEAKER_01]: I completely agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: I completely agree with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's where it gets to that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am both that I think he gets confusing because now it's like, oh, well, I get to keep the thing that makes me violent.
[SPEAKER_01]: But so long as I step back from actually killing someone,
[SPEAKER_02]: I get to keep the violent powers.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I thought it was, I didn't interpret as much as violence as just like pure strength.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right, like now he gets the extra heightened sense as he gets the extra heightened strength.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's what he's keeping.
[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't, to be fair, I've seen it one time I saw it early.
[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't, I don't remember that the next shot is him throwing him at a spike.
[SPEAKER_03]: One of the hand nages at a spike and then stopping it.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's the next shot you're saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not the next shot.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like within seconds afterwards.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I do remember that sequence.
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess our is strength and violence interchangeable here, you know, is it more that he's just showing like I can now beat you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like one of the next shots that I remember that I thought was cool was the embracing of the organic webbing, defeating the damage control weapons because they had weapons set up for his.
[SPEAKER_03]: um, his other webbing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that might say like actually these are powers that are, uh, of dismantling you or disabling your tools of violence.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, I've only seen it once too.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like, um, like, you know, maybe it's more nuanced than that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not necessarily attacking the movie over this.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's more than I am discussing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's portrayal of violence.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not trying to attack you either.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you know, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, which gets to the Sadie Sink, you know, like the saving her thing, which like I think it's totally in keeping with the character and why that moment I think like largely works.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's also cool reference to the ultimate death of Peter Parker from the comics where Punisher shoots him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I think on the like, uh,
[SPEAKER_01]: the Brooklyn Bridge or the Manhattan Bridge.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so like there's part of me that was really convinced like this is the end for people here.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you said that for a split second I got to say I did think this could be it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like maybe this was all a build up and this is how it ends.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I know in reality business wise was not gonna let that happen, but I was believing it for a second.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think they've overused that trope where they like nearly kill MJ earlier in the movie and then they do it again for Peter with like throwing MJ off of a building, Gwen Stacy style.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, right, which is like a straight up Easter egg thing, I think.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, maybe.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they kind of, or they did that in, you know, but either way, it's like,
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of like a, when people say from death at the last second, like one, too many times, like he got shot through the middle.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, but you know, I, the interpretation there was that Jean Grey was keeping him alive, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Am I?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think they explicitly say it, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I also think they, my sense is that whatever has happened with him physiologically,
[SPEAKER_00]: I assume he wouldn't maybe not have survived that pre-mutation.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I mean, which has embraced both, or whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: At least, you know, because you just got the sense like that his, I feel like he picks up on on the danger of the shot earlier.
[SPEAKER_00]: It seems like they're augmenting the spider sense element in that way.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then, you know, there is the, the webbing is stronger.
[SPEAKER_00]: The, they never really fully understand what exactly,
[SPEAKER_00]: is happening to his powers and what's increasing and how much.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I part of my rea was that him leaning into that then also allowed him to defend and protect her more effectively, which is why I thought that I sort of viewed that in a way as the ultimate impact of his, I'm both discovery, but maybe I'm, I could also be reading into what I want that to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it could be that I just know that explicitly they say that Jean Gray was one keeping him alive.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: They certainly do.
[SPEAKER_01]: In my mind, that kind of says like, oh, if she wasn't there, he would be dead.
[SPEAKER_03]: And once he wakes up, it very intentionally shows the shot of Jean Gray kind of saying, like, bye, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I did my role, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It has a show where like on the bus kind of, yeah, like kind of look.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: As she heads up state New York to Xavier Manchin or probably, you know, or what are our frost mansion or whatever it's going to end up being sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, nothing is there yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she just gets there and she's like, that's a plot land looks nice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you build an an old school year old school.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can't be new looking, can't be new looking.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's the Batman begins.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and great such great fortifications.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think we could put a jet under in the cave's underneath?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, but this is me to commend that moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that moment is in keeping with the character and the themes that we've established in this series before in a way that the I am both is not.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm setting it up as a comparison, like him saving Jim Gray in that way is an exercise in, you know, with de-escalation, if you will, or like taking the bullet for someone else and believing so strongly in the redemptive power and that revenge isn't healing, which is actually why I think the story would be better if MJ maybe had died being thrown off the building because then he could go in there and really
[SPEAKER_01]: that revenge isn't a motivating factor for him that he had learned the thing that I wanted him to have showcases learning of in no way home to have him like prove that that's a lesson that he doesn't need to be told from someone else that he has totally internalized like that revenge isn't uh I don't once in days character to die because I actually think those scenes are the best scenes in the movie right I don't love you seeing is heartbreaking and the best scene in the movie
[SPEAKER_03]: And the interaction with the Punisher in general at that base, I thought was just spectacular.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and even like I like the Punisher in this movie, he's a bit too cartoony.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think actually if they leaned into the more hardcore Punisher, it would have helped the themes of the movie stronger, to have a guide that has basically thrown away his entire life on this revenge mission.
[SPEAKER_01]: And was like,
[SPEAKER_01]: hell bent on that at all costs would have really set up this really strong like parallel or mirror to what Peter's going through to be like, I don't want to become that guy, but I also found that redemptive scene with Punisher at the end where he like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Talks to Peter after all of it really kind of touching because you see the punitive stuff off in a bit that that was really nice But I guess all this is to say like I just think that the Sadie sink as you were saying like moment is a better Elastrd of moment of who this Interpretation of Spider-Man is and the ideas that have been fueling it at least as I have interpreted them then the I am both which to me is a
[SPEAKER_01]: is a misunderstanding of who this Spider-Man is and how to portray it, because I don't think Spider-Man gets the victory.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's like a core essence to the character.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have so many more things.
[SPEAKER_03]: We've taken so much of your time.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let me just ask my one follow-up question.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm interested in this because you obviously have a
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess two things.
[SPEAKER_03]: It makes me kind of think about like, is there a perfect movie out there that they could tell?
[SPEAKER_03]: And like, for me, not coming from the comic background, you know, I fell in love.
[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't read comics growing up, and I fell in love with Iron Man in 2008.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then that's what kind of got this whole thing going.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I have a very MCU background, which is kind of the whole push and pull of our podcast, and that Robbie has the comic background, and I did, and I just loved these movies and was passionate about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: one of the things that I loved about this movie obviously when you go back to like Spider-Man 2 from Sam Ramey you know you get the the whole weight of the city thing and that's what makes it so special but part of the inherent I guess like leg up it has is that he doesn't have other heroes in that universe and so you can get that way to the moment thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: But you don't get the other side of what Robbie is told me from the comics.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've read some of them, Spider-Man Blue and whatnot.
[SPEAKER_03]: You don't get the other side of it, which is like in the comics, he lives in a very built-out hero universe a lot of times.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so you don't get the interactions with characters like the Punisher or the Hulk in those movies, in the same Raymond movies.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I felt like that was handled really well here in that
[SPEAKER_03]: It felt like a lived, lived in breathing MCU, like the way he checks in with Yelena, the interactions with Bruce, Frank, et cetera, in ways that I recognize and maybe Punisher could have been more intense, but coming from already having the background knowledge of who Frank is going into this, kind of thing, I felt like those were already there.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like that balance was already there.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so one of my favorite things is they still did that while balancing, I felt like he, it was still a Peter problem by the end.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like Peter taking the bullet for Jean was like, was a Peter centric thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I did feel kind of the weight of the city, if you will, even though there were these other interactions.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I guess that's one tangent to kind of, not push back on all of that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I agree that the Jean Grey moment,
[SPEAKER_03]: is probably more effective than the I'm both moment.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like when I think of the movie, I think of the Jean Grey moment, not the I'm both.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know there is a lot of discourse online about people talking about the I'm both moment.
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess my question is, is there a perfect spider man movie out there that does live within the MCU?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like we are in this universe.
[SPEAKER_03]: Can a perfect story in your opinion be told?
[SPEAKER_03]: And when you said multiple times,
[SPEAKER_03]: that you've you've changed your stance on that a little bit or you've like you've you've grown to respect it you in reference to something with Sam Raimi movie you said something about no way home you've grown to respect more what is it what's the catalyst in you changing your mind on something like is there something that could happen years on the road that you view this movie more fondly what usually when you change your mind on something why
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm a human being, that's, I mean, I change every day, you know, like, what's the point if I go through the day and nothing challenges my perspective or let's me see new things that change?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean,
[SPEAKER_01]: like it doesn't have to be even anything that revelatory like maybe I went to this theater and the the sound wasn't turned up loud enough and if if the sound was just slightly bit louder that hope that song in the opening montage would have hit me a little bit harder and sold me on that sequence.
[SPEAKER_01]: I I wasn't sold on that sequence.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought the music was a mismatch there and
[SPEAKER_01]: But maybe if it was slightly louder, it would have impacted me differently.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the next time I see it, the scenario will be different.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or my audience wasn't viding with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, therefore, I picked up some of those vibes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like, it can change any and every time.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like,
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we live in a really bizarre internet culture where people feel like, once they write something down, it's in ink and they have to defend it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you got to dig your heels in.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I've been a film critic for a long time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I hate all this kind of like anti-film critic discourse.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh, why are you a film critic if you hate movies?
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Film critics love movies like we love them so much like that's like because and we're critical because we love them, you know, like we know how powerful they can be, right, or we realize something doesn't work for us to be wanted like dig in and figure out why, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, you could write a movie review that's very honest like my theater projected this poorly and it impacted the way that saw the movie now is that a good review of the movie universally no it's a review of that particular screening right but like that would be in some ways the most honest review of all because everything is subjective and down to the person to person so what change it I don't even know every everything can change it and it's not like I like
[SPEAKER_01]: Wake up one morning and there's a guy across the street like wearing a spider man shirt and he does something kind and it changes my entire productive slum dog millionaire style and like secondly I'm allowed an insight right it's a culmination of life events like we're all coming at this from a different place with all value different things you said earlier like I understand what you're saying but that doesn't matter to me well for some reason it matters to me you know like and that's all I can express is that like who I am in the perspective that I'm in and
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, even though I've had many of my reviews, hundreds of reviews published in papers and magazines and stuff over the years, you know, and it's in ink, I don't think that those reviews are in ink.
[SPEAKER_01]: I reread my reviews all the time and I'm like, that's such a, like, one, I'm like my writing is really bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, I don't even agree with my own, like, what was I thinking?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, I don't agree with that, you know, I'm in no way definitive.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can just, if I'm doing my job, I'm doing my best job, articulating how I feel in any particular moment, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes just familiarity breeds, you could call it Stockholm syndrome if you want, but like, you're more in watch at the more I'm like, okay, or I understand the terms of the movie.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it may not be the terms that I want, like, when I first saw Thor Ragnarok, I really didn't like it.
[SPEAKER_01]: because I thought in the opening where they just kind of like killed off his father and broke mule near, there was very little pathos given to those moments.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was like, well, wait a minute, like that hammer and his father is everything to him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, can we at least spend a little more time with this than just kind of making it into a quick beat or a joke?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've returned to that movie and it grows on me every time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I still don't like Tycoitini as a director.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a whole other conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like that movie of his actually is grown on me because it's like, oh, he's doing something completely different.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if I can divorce myself from how much I think the hammer and the father thing really should have weighed, I can appreciate it for on its own terms for what it's doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that, is that answer your question?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, this is so trivial, but as a quick side, I'm really sensitive about sound as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I do think that matters.
[SPEAKER_03]: My wife literally in this screening of this movie, I said, I just, they need to turn it a little bit louder.
[SPEAKER_03]: She said, if you say it to me one more time, I swear.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, she was like, please, she doesn't care.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's like, please stop talking about him.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, yeah, but if you're not feeling every impact, I mean, like, as the Odyssey is an example, the loudest movie I've ever been a part of.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was too loud.
[SPEAKER_02]: Can we admit it was too loud?
[SPEAKER_03]: Literally the the screen from Cyclops.
[SPEAKER_03]: I looked at my dad who has hearing aids.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, this is the loudest like I've never experienced something this loud.
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, they're probably as a line, but it affects it does affect the way you impact like the horror of that moment, because it's auditoryly assaulting you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I genuinely think Nolan knows that and knows that most theaters around the country play the audio too quiet, which is a huge problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I will stop going to theaters because they, like, I live right near this amazing theater.
[SPEAKER_01]: This historic theater here on Baltimore, the Senator Theater.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's my favorite theater on Earth.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love everything about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to support it as an independent theater and all of its revival stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's audio is too quiet and I know if I go see a movie there.
[SPEAKER_01]: it's not going to impact me in the way that I want it to.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it, and it, and it, and it, do you ever leave that me?
[SPEAKER_02]: No, it's ruined movies for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know it has.
[SPEAKER_03]: Dude.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm, that we are 100% lock stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: I, I, I've debated like getting out of my seat and like trying to find someone to be like, Hey, you got to turn this up because I said, it does that every screening.
[SPEAKER_01]: My wife hates it, but yeah, I literally will do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I, I have like, I'm grateful for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have to take care of it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have to take care of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have to take care of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have to take care of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have to take care of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: as a programmer in LA for theater.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I know these systems, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been up there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm like, it's just knob, it's labeled this, and they're like, okay, just come up and show us.
[SPEAKER_01]: Pretty ridiculous for like like I'm paying money like and it's my first seeing a movie It's the only first experience I get with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want the right one, you know Yeah, I'm with you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm with you.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm with you I've never I've never I've never taken this step to actually leave but now you're now you're empowered to
[SPEAKER_01]: My wife actually has asked me to not go to certain theaters here in Baltimore because it's a little more of a rough audience, so to speak, that I have like feel like I've almost had my life threatened from like shushing people in the theater or getting management to like throw people out that are like talking the whole movie and she's like one of these days you will be killed.
[SPEAKER_01]: by one of those people because it's almost, it's got to the point of near fist fights of me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like he pisses like coming back into the theater to yell at me for getting them kicked out of the theater and she's like, if you keep going to these theaters, like one of these days someone is going to shoot you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, to answer your other question, um,
[SPEAKER_01]: I have no problem with the implementation of MCU characters in this movie or any of the movies so long as it's done well, like, and I think it's a mix back here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the Punisher stuff is done well.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Uranus stuff didn't quite work for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think her performance is a little cartoonish.
[SPEAKER_01]: In a way that I really like in her movies, but in this sort of like one that's trying to sell you this grounded thing, him going to this kind of spy that speaks in this elevated Russian accent, to me felt as a little discordant with the understanding of how this world worked.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like the Bruce stuff felt great, even though Bruce is like the comics lizard where like every time he shows up, they forgot the previous status quo of the character and like four movies have happened with that character of screen that will never see like how is he a professor that has a healed arm and isn't smart Hulk anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's the, yeah, I know, I'm sure it's pretty eternal like joke that we all make like, I can't tell if that was intended as a joke or not like, yeah, the finale of She-Hulk is I actually really liked what they did, but that finale it does make the show difficult to interpret in terms of
[SPEAKER_01]: What the we know how to view that even for yeah, I know how to view it either is there a robot named Kevin that is A. I producing everything it's not exactly a flattering portrait, but Yeah, so anyway like sorry, but yes, but yeah, but you feel like there are parts of Spider-Man's world that can reflect back on the character if if they're used well, you know
[SPEAKER_01]: My ideal spider-man stories are usually with him as a loner, not dealing with other people, but I don't have a problem with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just happens to be my preference.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like solo books more than I like team books, and I like solo here, a character movies, usually more than I like team movies.
[SPEAKER_01]: Although, that's not necessarily true when I think about the Marvel,
[SPEAKER_01]: Homecoming is my favorite but like behind that it's like infinity war and guardians three and stuff like that and I like fantastic more than most people.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you know how to fantasize of war.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I will say I think no way home is a movie for me that has also evolved a lot with subsequent viewings and I'm curious to watch brand new day again and see if that's the case and to keep talking to you about
[SPEAKER_00]: All thanks, Spider-Man, because this has been one of my favorite conversations we've had in a while.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, thank you, Dan Gabbos, and for coming on the show, and you are welcome back any time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks, it's been a lot of fun and I appreciate anybody that lets me spout off about spider man.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, let me know, I'll hop back on over.
[SPEAKER_02]: Dan, if our listeners want to hear more from you, we're going to go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I mentioned at the top, but maybe I've convinced you.
[SPEAKER_01]: more of it come check out amazing spider talk it's my podcast all about spider man it's you can go to amazing spider talk dot com or really find it anywhere on your you get podcasts or youtube or what have you were in that world where video podcasts are like rapidly becoming a thing as we're figuring out how to reinvent
[SPEAKER_01]: technology every other week.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, we cover everything Spider-Man.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, our typical episode, we reviewed the latest issue of amazing Spider-Man, but we do movie reviews and we also have interviews with the creators.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've done over 200 interviews with all the people.
[SPEAKER_01]: who have made Spider-Man everything throughout the years including Spider-Man actors and voice actors and you name it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you talked about the Spider-Man video games, you're low in thall has been on our show and know what's going on and he's our official voice of Spider-Man for the show.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have a
[SPEAKER_01]: appearance of him coming up that I think is going to be quite special and we do our seasonal content.
[SPEAKER_01]: So every year we do a season of our show that breaks down in chronological order sort of an era of Spider-Man as a franchise.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we've been starting from his introduction and we are our new season will likely start this fall.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's going to cover the late 80s and early 90s.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you want to know all learn about all things Spider-Man comics and beyond, especially as it starts to feel its tendrils into the movie universe, which would be great to have you guys on the show to talk about some of that stuff as we start getting into the late 90s and early 2000s and the appearance of Spider-Man in cinema screens.
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, check out our seasonal content.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's evergreen and and you could learn a lot about spider man, but it's still kind of like bird's eye view, you know, like you don't have to have read every comic, you know, uh, uh, ever, which I obviously have.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, but you can learn a lot about the character and for someone like you, Kyle, if you're looking for places to get into reading comics, spider and comics,
[SPEAKER_01]: that can be a great guide through like what material is important to read or would be best for someone who's looking to dip their toes in.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's amazing spider talk.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, amazing spider talk.com or you can just search for Spider Man in podcast and you'll
[SPEAKER_01]: probably find it, and then I exist on the internet.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can look up my name and any social media service or amaging spider-chalk and you'll find me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, hit me up, I'm here to chat spider-man and film, you know, I was a film critic for a long time, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I appreciate so much that you guys had me on and I always like these conversations where I can kind of talk about something that I maybe don't go quite as in depth on my show, which is a bit more comics-oriented than the MCU.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I appreciate your time even more than generous.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're going 90 minutes and I love it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, listeners, check it out.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're going to love this stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: Dan, I really appreciate the conversation.
[SPEAKER_03]: And for all of the listeners, thank you for subscribing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for supporting.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we'll see you next time here on Friends From Work.