[SPEAKER_01]: there and welcome to our show.
[SPEAKER_01]: The shit no one tells you about writing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm best selling author, Bianca Marie, and I'm joined by C.C.
[SPEAKER_01]: Lira of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of PS Literary.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi everyone, welcome back to another books with Hux.
[SPEAKER_01]: As per usual, we're diving straight in.
[SPEAKER_01]: Carly, can you please kick us off with your query letter?
[SPEAKER_00]: Dear Kylie, thank you for all the wisdom you see see Bianca share through Tisnet Yab which is become the crown jewel for my morning dog walk podcast rotation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not including this paragraph, the following query letter is 381 words.
[SPEAKER_00]: On screen, Felix is reality TV's all-American heart-throb, but when an unlikely romance sparked behind the scenes, he must balance the weight of the world's expectations against the pull of his heart, all without losing himself along the way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Please consider my upmarket rom-com love trap for representation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Complete at 75,000 words.
[SPEAKER_00]: This book combines the reality TV romance of Alex Cochrane's The Charm Offensive with the warm Buddhism.
[SPEAKER_00]: of Rebecca, Kay, Riley's Greta and Valden.
[SPEAKER_00]: Due to your interest in a market fiction contemporary romance and queer stories, I hope this book will appeal to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Felix has no real friends, no real career in a near bursting abundance of bottled up grief, which is why it's so unbelievable to him that he's going on love trap, the country's most watch reality dating show.
[SPEAKER_00]: But when travel complications threaten this one chance at life-changing
[SPEAKER_00]: With a neck for solving problems and making Felix smile, Bartek saves the day, ushering Felix through all the catch-up he needs to be ready in time for the premiere.
[SPEAKER_00]: Once the camera start rolling, Felix rises as a stark contestant out-competing the other men for the attention of the show's many beautiful women.
[SPEAKER_00]: But all the while Bartek works behind the scenes, monitoring Felix's meals and vape breaks, transporting him to filming locations and getting him ready for the cameras.
[SPEAKER_00]: With each brief moment together, the two grow closer, bonding over shared interest in humor until their attraction eventually overflows into more passionate encounters.
[SPEAKER_00]: Realizing that his feelings were bartec or stronger than any he's felt before, Felix fights to stay on the show, performing for the cameras so that he can keep being with bartec behind them.
[SPEAKER_00]: But there's deceit proves difficult, especially as he forms genuine friendships with his fellow contestants under the pressure of bottled up grief against a crack.
[SPEAKER_00]: torn between Bartek, his friends in the past, he's never processed, Felix must decide what matters most to sparkling image, or his pining heart.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a marketing and operations manager based in New York City with a background in biology and education.
[SPEAKER_00]: When I'm not writing, I'm properly walking my high energy dog, this would be my debut novel, thanks for your time and consideration, sincerely, Jack.
[SPEAKER_00]: Focali?
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, do you want to tell us what you think of that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, as was already stated, we know our word count, so thank you, Jack, 381 words.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so I, I will admit, I hadn't read the charm offensive until I looked at this query letter.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like one of those books I've heard a million times.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I grabbed the sample on my phone, so I could read it beforehand.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, just to just to see, sometimes with combs you never know,
[SPEAKER_00]: how close something is to the calm how accurate the calm is, especially if I haven't read it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what I found with this one is, I am not entirely sure how different this is than the charm offensive because they do seem kind of similar in that they go in the reality show, fall for some people behind the scenes, queer romance.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would probably in the query letter highlight a bit more of how it's different than the charm offensive.
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously the charm offensive was a very successful book, but you don't want to kind of suggest that you're repeating the success because that book is already there.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'll have to say this sounds fantastic, but again, just make sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: we're actually differentiating it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I thought those were very sweet.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it checks on the boxes of it being really modern, really interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: One thing that I usually say on the show is I'm not that interested in TV show stories or reality show stories.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've said this so many times, but I absolutely love the checks at this to me, because this is an example of something where the actual plot itself doesn't necessarily hinge on the fact that he's on the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: want something that you can't have.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, it's all the behind the scenes part that actually makes this the story that it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I actually will eat my words about not liking reality TV show pitches because I actually really liked this one.
[SPEAKER_00]: So well done, Jack.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Kali.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know a lot of my gay friends will be very happy to see that this has been written by a gay man because yes something that they are constantly complaining about is how so many of these gay romances are written by straight woman and they you know they get a bit
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought it was a great query letter.
[SPEAKER_02]: I actually believe that Jack is an avid listener of our show, which is a way of complimenting us, sounds a little, sounds a little, it's all centered, but he just did everything that he was supposed to, you know, he gave us a really strong hook, gave us great comps.
[SPEAKER_02]: Ensured that the plot paragraphs had protagonist place in the world, the disruption, the escalation, the major dramatic question.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, this is just five stars.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought it was great.
[SPEAKER_02]: In terms of the comps, I do think the charm offensive is awesome.
[SPEAKER_02]: I did look up, grada, and valden, and the sales aren't the best.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know if you want to keep that one or not, as an editorial comp, I think it works really well.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, great job.
[SPEAKER_01]: This was amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yay, Jack, high praising, indeed.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Kali, what was in those opening pages?
[SPEAKER_00]: Alright, so we start with kind of a time stamp of sorts.
[SPEAKER_00]: It says two days before the premiere.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we have our character Felix, who, in the first line of the, of the Saples canceled, because Felix is at the airport, and all of a sudden the gate agent tells him that his flight is canceled.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he's trying to figure out what to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's very tired.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's 430 in the morning.
[SPEAKER_00]: He knows that there's somebody in production that he's supposed to call about these things.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, he's kind of like this is really early, but anyway, he calls the person.
[SPEAKER_00]: the person picks up and proceeds to help himself the problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: The gate agent doesn't want to get him on the next flight, but again, the production assistant or production managers kind of coaching him through how to handle it with a lot of confidence and clarity which helps him navigate the situation so he's able to get on a different flight.
[SPEAKER_00]: being rerouted so that he will make it in time for the premiere.
[SPEAKER_00]: They were navigating a number of production issues, which is, you know, we can't be on the same flight as the other contestants, Yadi Adiada.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we worked through the drama.
[SPEAKER_00]: He gets on the next flight and the production person is able to get him back into his hotel so that he can get some sleep and be rested in time for the next leg of his journey.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's where we end.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Kali, what did you think of that as a starting place?
[SPEAKER_00]: I loved the pages.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought it was really well done.
[SPEAKER_00]: As I mentioned in my summary, the first line is canceled.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I love this because we know based on the pitch and everybody reading it who eventually gets the jacket copy will know it's a book about a television show.
[SPEAKER_00]: So to get to read the first line, you know, two days before the premiere,
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, line break canceled.
[SPEAKER_00]: Everybody goes, what they just canceled the show?
[SPEAKER_00]: You'll think, like, what is canceled?
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, I love that because it wasn't actually the show that's canceled.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was the flight that's canceled.
[SPEAKER_00]: So right away, that little bit of kind of dramatic irony, if you will, it was just, anyway, absolutely adorable, and I loved it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I really loved the, again, I kind of alluded to, and my summary, I just love the confidence that the person on the other end of the phone with the production person who we know to be
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, he just exactly knows how to handle the situation and we love competent men on this show love competent men nothing better than a competent man so bar tax solving this problem for Felix love it and Felix has a bit vulnerable right you know we're not really he's doesn't really know what he's getting into so I just really love the power play between these two
[SPEAKER_00]: because oftentimes the stars, the person in the position of power, but in this point, he looks as an a star yet, and we need, you know, bar tech to be the one to take control of the situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I loved it all.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought it was really well-written.
[SPEAKER_00]: The banter, the situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: We understood why this kind of dramatic moment was happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't so dramatic that it felt out of place.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was just like, okay, we got to get this character.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, on this flight, here's a dramatic airport situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've all been in those moments where we're talking to the
[SPEAKER_00]: And we all need a bar check in our life to be like, hey, can you please get me on this flight?
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I really enjoyed these pages.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought it was great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Carly, and what a great way to introduce a main character who's going to become a main character really on in the pages as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: For sometimes I know the love interest gets introduced quite a bit later.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, CC, what's your take?
[SPEAKER_01]: I promise I'm not doing the sun purpose.
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't like the way Bartek handled the issue.
[SPEAKER_02]: All Bartek did was say on the other, so here's, I mean, Carly summarized it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the protagonist calls Bartek, and Bartek says, no, that's unacceptable.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like that's not helping.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like that's useless.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, like, I just made no sense to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, this is a competent man who has resources.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I would have expected him to,
[SPEAKER_00]: site-specific legislation or precedent, but it's for lock in the morning, like clearly Bartek was woken up out of a deep sleep, you know, like I imagine he woke he woke him up and he's like, okay, here we go, got to deal with this production issue.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, and I would have no skills at four o'clock in the morning as well, but then that's the conclusion this person has no skills for a very compassionate reasonable reason, which is that it's four o'clock in the morning, but if we want to convey him as someone who can actually do the job and make a difference, then he has to like sight airline regulations, threat and to suit, I don't know something more concrete than know that's unacceptable and then the protagonist repeats know that's unacceptable.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then he says there's another flight to Kira-Sau, like that's a quick Google.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not like who this person's competent.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the gate agent says, no, that's that won't work.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then Bartek says, no, he's just saying that to test your weakness.
[SPEAKER_02]: That doesn't help.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not like that's not like it's like it's to me it showed like Bartek giving Felix a confidence that he needs to navigate the situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: I agree with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, that makes sense giving the confidence because that's like psychological support.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that's not competent to support.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I like your idea about, you know, citing the airline regulations.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's, that's, that's good.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I actually think it depends on how you want Bartek to come across.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you want him to come across as this like badass who knows the, who knows how to navigate the tricky airport dynamics and politics and legislation and regulations, then great.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you actually want it to seem like all Felix needed was for someone to validate his emotions in order for him to stand up for himself.
[SPEAKER_02]: then the way it is is working.
[SPEAKER_02]: It depends on the author's intention.
[SPEAKER_02]: As usual, this is one of the situations we're having the author on the show would be useful.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think it depends on the intention.
[SPEAKER_02]: But for me, it was very much like this is a game of broken telephone.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like if it were me calling this person who like clearly stated, I should call him and not text.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is in the pages.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would be like, this is your help.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the best you can do.
[SPEAKER_02]: Seriously?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_00]: But we also want to be curious to meet Bartek in person.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because if we're not curious, like, if we know too much about Bartek, then we're like, well, we know exactly who he is.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I actually was kind of curious.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, oh, who is Bartek?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, what would he do like at noon or at happy hour or whatever, in not in the situation he's woken up before in the morning?
[SPEAKER_00]: That actually means curious about meeting him in real life.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you're saying I'm trying to understand what you're saying that because it's four o'clock in the morning, the fact that he wasn't super competent made you more curious to see how he would be at other hours.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, correct.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that would not make me curious.
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, no because it'd be like I think it would make me even more curious if he was competent because I'd be like if this is the man at four o'clock in the morning imagine how he is at noon after coffee.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it depends on how intelligent you want them to come across.
[SPEAKER_02]: How competent you want them to come across.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do want to say there is a part where so Bartek tells Felix you can't be on the next flight because some of the women will be on the flight and you're not allowed to see them before we start filming.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like you're wedding day not seeing the bride and then Felix thinks to himself he doesn't love the analogy.
[SPEAKER_02]: quote, but reminds himself that this is exactly the type of analogy he should love.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's supposed to be aspiring to marriage and family and other traditional achievements.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why do I love this?
[SPEAKER_02]: I love a good protagonist, analyzing his own thoughts and thinking what how he is supposed to be reacting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Internally, like that to me shows layers of what is being left and said,
[SPEAKER_02]: What is being withheld the inner conflict like that adds layers of richness to a story and I thought that was really really good so I really enjoyed it for me though
[SPEAKER_02]: because the disruption didn't do what I wanted it to do, which was to reveal power dynamics, reveal greater emotions, reveal messiness.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think the disruption's the right one.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you either change it to show Bart Tech being way more intelligent, and then Felix just being completely wowed by this.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's like the inkling of something that's a little bit more substantive.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or you change the starting place, because I think that the job of the disruption I've said this before is not merely to present a conflict or an obstacle, but it's to reveal layers of power and balance.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, thank you both.
[SPEAKER_01]: Before we move on, Khalia, feel like I need to advocate for the author here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Will you be requesting anything from the author?
[SPEAKER_01]: So does not necessarily your wheelhouse.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been noodling on that.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, that's a great question.
[SPEAKER_00]: I, so the question that I had, which I mentioned in my reading of it, which is, I need to figure out if this is different than it's cops.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if I can figure out that it's different than it's cops, then yes, which makes me think I should probably just request a pages so that I can know if it's actually different.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I think I will.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yay, Jack.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, before we move on to our next
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, CC, we're handing it across to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Please read us your query letter.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's do this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Dear CC.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm seeking representation for my debut novel, Follow the Leader, a 94,000 word, adult commercial thriller.
[SPEAKER_02]: This novel features the psychologically unsettling tone of a flicker in the dark by Stacy willing him and explores the darkest sides of psychopathy like a flaw in the design by Nathan Oates.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm querying you, C.C.
[SPEAKER_02]: for your interest in propulsive plot and unforgettable twisty characters.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm also a long time student of the shit known tells you about writing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Masking his violent desire since he was a child, 28-year-old Ralph Leachon, presents as a normal guy working in New York City.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just at his psychiatrist Tatem, but when he connects with Maggie, a gorgeous and talented fashion designer, at a bar one evening, he fights the dark urge, he's depressed since he was a child, too kill.
[SPEAKER_02]: But Maggie Dangerless isn't the innocent face everyone believes her to be.
[SPEAKER_02]: And as she learns about Ralph's murderous desires, she reveals that she's been harboring a plant to kill and make art out of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: When Maggie convinces Ralph to lean into his fantasies, they form the romantics, a cult of murderers who display their victims as art installations.
[SPEAKER_02]: For 32-year-old Jonas Reddingk, a detective renowned for his impeccable hunches, being assigned the romantic case is the perfect opportunity to earn a promotion.
[SPEAKER_02]: But with no leads, he isn't living up to his reputation.
[SPEAKER_02]: Until Maggie puts herself at the center of the investigation.
[SPEAKER_02]: and redding becomes fixated on the girl, no one else considers a threat.
[SPEAKER_02]: As the body count rises, Ralph and Maggie fight for control, Ego's intentions build, and they fight for their place as the leader of the romantics for once and for all.
[SPEAKER_02]: As they each plot, a stunning murder unlike anything the romantics have done before.
[SPEAKER_02]: but with Jonas on their tail, their final works of art may be their last.
[SPEAKER_02]: I teach an award-winning creative writing program at a high school in New Jersey, my short fiction and poetry have appeared in heavy feather review, new note, poets' choice, and cicada song, press.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have received awards for teaching writing from Scholastic and Frank Paloan's Congressional Recognition and most recently I was named Monmouth's County Literary Arts Educator of the Year for 2026.
[SPEAKER_02]: Below are my first five pages for your consideration, I would love to send you the complete project that your request sincerely make it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We love literary arts, educators, so I shout out to Megan for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, CC, how many words in that query and what was your take on them?
[SPEAKER_02]: This one came around, 400 words definitely shout out to Megan, what an impressive author bio.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really cool to see.
[SPEAKER_02]: Definitely stands out.
[SPEAKER_02]: I, so when I first started recording the show, my memory was way better.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I knew for a fact when I had read something on the show.
[SPEAKER_02]: My memory now, not as great as it once was because of the, you know, thousands of query letters we read between queries and slash pile and conferences and the show, but I know I've read this before I don't know where I don't think it was on the show because I don't remember talking about it, but I definitely have read this query letter before I remember because I remember thinking, oh wow, really strong query letter.
[SPEAKER_02]: Even though we get a lot of volume, like all agents do, the truth is most query letters don't stand out for being so curious what I'm inducing and this one does, the author did a really great job.
[SPEAKER_02]: The comps are strong, flaw in the design did not do well, but again, editorial comp, you can use it as an editorial comp if you want.
[SPEAKER_02]: If I were submitting this as an agent though, I would definitely have to find a different comp, just because the sales unfortunately are low.
[SPEAKER_02]: The reported sales, I should say, because we only know what books can
[SPEAKER_02]: First plot paragraph ends with Maggie awakening in him a desire and then the words are too kill.
[SPEAKER_02]: That made me think his desire was to kill Maggie, and that intentional if it is great keep it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't sure it was because of the other plot paragraphs, so I'm just letting you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a line in Maggie's plot paragraph.
[SPEAKER_02]: that reads, as she learns about his murderous desires, and in my mind I'm going, how did she learn about his murderous desires, which is great, because this is me being curious about the how, I don't need to know the how on the query letter, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like that would just add a whole bunch of words.
[SPEAKER_02]: but it did make me curious, which is fantastic.
[SPEAKER_02]: Overall, this is an excellent query letter.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's doing its job, it's making me go, oh, wow, interesting, really, really interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I would definitely keep scrolling to read more if this were in my slash pile.
[SPEAKER_02]: What a full CC.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, Kali, all right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, overall, I think it's very strong.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if somebody's looking for, you know, a dark psychological novel like this, I think they're going to request the pages.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it does its job.
[SPEAKER_00]: My one, I guess, qualm with this is I do not like this title.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really don't think it does anything about, I don't think it says anything about the book, I don't think it does anything for the book.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it's connected to the pitch or the plot.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it could be one of those things where at the end of the novel we go, ah, that's why it's called that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But in, based on what I've seen here, I'm not really seeing the connection.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think a title like, and I haven't looked these up to see if they're taken.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think a title like, you know, the last work of art or the final work of art, something to do with art, it seems very
[SPEAKER_00]: Romantics may be, but it has to show the dark side of the dark romantics, something like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a title that I think wouldn't be much more kind of connected and feeling like it's on brand with what you're trying to accomplish in the query letter as opposed to what's going like, huh?
[SPEAKER_00]: I wonder if I'm going to find a figure out what that title means at some point in the book.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's really my main note here.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just to kind of really feel like the darkness is, you know, seeping through the whole query letter is just to kind of really
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, CC, what was in the opening pages?
[SPEAKER_01]: I just want to second that title comment.
[SPEAKER_02]: That was a good, like I.
[SPEAKER_02]: I hadn't, I hadn't occurred to me, it should have, but that, that makes a lot of sense to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, sometimes the cover does the work, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a really like sinister cover, but it's also kind of awesome if you can think of a title that does the work for you too.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, that's a really good note, I just want to second that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, what happens in these pages?
[SPEAKER_02]: So, chapter one takes place now, there's a big now meaning like now and then.
[SPEAKER_02]: and it's told from Detective Redding's point of view.
[SPEAKER_02]: He is giving a speech.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have no context on what this speech is.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, this is a compliment.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's essentially saying, I know you guys want me to talk about that case, but before I do, there's other things we have to talk about.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then he goes through like how much time humans dedicate to our fear.
[SPEAKER_02]: He asks the audience to consider all the things that keep your mind racing at night, the fact that we find pleasure in the terrible,
[SPEAKER_02]: The fact that we look at it at the scene of an accident and we can't not look and then he says, well, imagine how many dangerous people are out there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Imagine how many people who thoughts we should be afraid of, people who don't keep their darkness in their thoughts.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now imagine that these two people find each other.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we go to chapter two, told from Ralph's point of view, it's the then chapter.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we begin with what I'm pretty confident is a flashback, told in a italics of child Ralph talking to his psychiatrist and his psychiatrist is saying, you know, the trick is to appear normal.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he's saying, well, what if I can't?
[SPEAKER_02]: And he's like, you will, you just have to
[SPEAKER_02]: repress the bad thing and he's like well what if I can't leave and he's like you have to and he goes is that what most people do and he in the psychiatry says most people don't want to do what you want to do, Ralph.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we kind of leave that flashback and Ralph is thinking to himself that Dr. Mahoney knew the ways of the world and then what he learned from him was how to keep up the appearance of normalcy.
[SPEAKER_02]: But despite all the teachings, his darkness is stronger.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so he's having drawings with his co-workers, he's thinking, he's chatting with his co-workers acting normal, when he sees her.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's sitting alone, she's at the bar, and she is the only one like him who is different.
[SPEAKER_02]: She didn't seem lonely, didn't seem expectant.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he wonders if she smells as good as she looks.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he could tell that her mind wandered off to far places.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so they make eye contact, he looks away, and then at one point it's clear that she's leaving the bar, he assumes to go home, so he follows her.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's a loud voice in his mind as he's following her saying walk away Ralph, which we assume is Dr. Mahoney's voice.
[SPEAKER_02]: And when he thinks that the girl swings around, like she heard it, and he, you know, just keeps walking and like he didn't do anything.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he,
[SPEAKER_02]: thinks to himself that she unlocked something in him and that he was ready to let the darkness swallow him whole.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so CC, what's your take on the pages?
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, take on the pages, honest CC, take very well written, very very well written, strong writing,
[SPEAKER_02]: my opinion though it's not doing the job.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think you're starting the right place I don't think you're starting the right way.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll tell you why.
[SPEAKER_02]: The chapter one with the detective the speech is giving is very heavy on the vibes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would prefer it to be adding a specific mystery.
[SPEAKER_02]: Beyond there's a case everyone wants to hear about because we know what case he's talking about and every reader will know from looking at the pitch copy.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would like something that's just a
[SPEAKER_02]: The idea of I'm here to talk to you about these dangerous things that we all have inside of each other.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now imagine these two people meeting.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not bad.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the part of my job.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the worst.
[SPEAKER_02]: This isn't bad at all.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just very similar to various other queries we get.
[SPEAKER_02]: And part of our jobs as agents is to look for the special look for what feels fresh and original and that needs to be conveyed in the starting point in the initial pages and so this to me is reading a little bit more generic than I would kind of hope for.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm wondering whether if you're keen on starting with the detective whether you might actually hint to a very juicy very specific part about the case that wouldn't be in the pitch copy so beyond you know to.
[SPEAKER_02]: Two serial killers or two killers and don't know what that could be because I don't know what happens later in the pages I don't know if someone could interrupt him maybe and say something that was you know curiosity and do saying I don't know enough about your story to offer probably anything good, but I would keep thinking Chapter two.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think you should start with the flashback for the same reason I don't think the speech is working which is again.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're talking about dark urges
[SPEAKER_02]: Big picture.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we're talking about how he has to repress his dark urges.
[SPEAKER_02]: Big picture.
[SPEAKER_02]: We kind of know that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that doesn't need a whole flashback for that.
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't have to go into him being a child in that room in order for me to get that information.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like two lines of interiority could do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: That he's always been repressing his dark urges.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you want to go into the room, then the psychiatrist needs to say something very specific, very curiosity-inducing, something like,
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't want to repeat what you did with your mother or you don't want to repeat of what you did to your sister or to your brother whatever it is and then we're like, oh, what did he do to his mother like it's something very specific as opposed to just urges urges is a bit too big picture.
[SPEAKER_02]: When we leave the flashback and he's at the bar and we are meant to believe that this woman caught his attention because he knew what her mind was thinking, that to me was not believable.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that what happened is a storyteller needs to show the meeting and is relying on the protagonist feeling this inexplicable urge intuition.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we're supposed to believe that that happened.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's very hard to pull off on the first pages.
[SPEAKER_02]: Very hard.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of like it's the same principle as don't have your characters falling in love at first sight in the first pages because it's usually too hard to pull off.
[SPEAKER_02]: The same goes for like psychopath love or whatever this is.
[SPEAKER_02]: Psychopath attraction, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I didn't believe it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just didn't believe it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I also really wanted greater depth and insights.
[SPEAKER_02]: I always say that a good writer will share an observation, a great writer will share an insight that stems from that observation.
[SPEAKER_02]: So here's an example.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a part where he says men give each other nicknames and unfortunately they usually stick.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to know, like, why does he feel men get each other's nicknames?
[SPEAKER_02]: Where are they trying to accomplish?
[SPEAKER_02]: This is especially interesting because, as someone who is a psychopath.
[SPEAKER_02]: He probably has opinions and interpretations of why people who aren't psychopaths do what they do that are really different from a mainstream person.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I would be really interested in insights and it doesn't have to be about this specific thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: It could be about other things, but I wanted to know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Finally, the whole part where she turns around because of a voice in his head, are we meant to think there's a speculative element?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because that wasn't clear to me in the query letter.
[SPEAKER_02]: What is a query page?
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't even know.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if we are, that needs to go in the query letter.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if we're not, then, sorry, it's just not believable to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I think that's what I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm struggling with believability.
[SPEAKER_02]: If this were in my inbox, I would have read the pages, but I wouldn't be requesting and not to sound mean, but just because I don't think that you figured out your story starting point.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just don't think it's there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, CC, thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Kali, handing it across to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I agree with CC's assessment.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really wanted to like the kind of chapter one and detective readings voice.
[SPEAKER_00]: I liked the beginning of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe the first half of the first page.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then my eyeballs just wanted to skim this because it kind of comes off as if we don't always talking to, this seems like some kind of lecture that they're giving.
[SPEAKER_00]: And as the reader, I'm like, I don't want to be lectured at.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I didn't open a book to be lectured at.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not at this police academy or whatever
[SPEAKER_00]: But then, I really liked the last two lines of this section, which he said, think about how many dangerous people are at their in the world right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now ask yourself what happens if these people find each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: I loved that line, but that really to me just reads like a tagline on a front jacket, not really like, do we really need this whole section just for those couple great lines?
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's an example of, you know, got to kill the darling, got to find somewhere else for them to go.
[SPEAKER_00]: maybe that belongs somewhere else and it doesn't actually belong in these opening pages.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we are in our chapter two in Rails point of view.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was really into this moment like I didn't have a lot of notes that took me out of the actual reading of it because I was really curious about, you know, what he was doing at the bar, what he thought of her and then he starts to follow her.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I was really taken with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So all this to say, if there's something to
[SPEAKER_00]: It's hard to say, to be honest with you, what to keep here, because us humming and hauling, probably suggest that you might as well just kind of start from scratch, unfortunately, and not because we're trying to be negative, just because it seems like this is such a great pitch.
[SPEAKER_00]: It seems like there's something really great here, and yet we're not really seeing it really early, where this is the part where you have to hook us, because, again, if this is pasted in the bottom of the query letter, then we want to read more.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't think we've figured out what the opening is.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think we've figured out what the beginning is.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you feel like you need to keep this detective section, we need to understand where we are in time and not just that, it's kind of like a big lecture that's happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then if you want to keep this bar scene, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I felt like I was really, I was reading to figure out
[SPEAKER_00]: At what point, he's going to kind of break off into this real darkness, and I think that we were getting there, but I wasn't really sure what we were working to afford, so then having these two characters meet each other as quickly as possible.
[SPEAKER_00]: So all this to say, the writing is good.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a very interesting story.
[SPEAKER_00]: We haven't figured out what the beginning is yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: For the author, if you have beta readers who've read more of this work, see if there's a point at which they feel like that's really the opening scene.
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of the time I'll write something and get to chapter 8 and establish that chapter 8 was actually the most compelling entry point into the story.
[SPEAKER_01]: So definitely ask your beta readers if there's somewhere else that they think would be a better start as opposed to just having to rewrite the whole beginning.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's always a good way to guide you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, before we end, CC, would you like to tell us about what we are doing next week in our books with Hooks in terms of New Guests?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, we're trying something new when we're really curious to see if you guys are going to like it or not.
[SPEAKER_02]: We always want honest feedback.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we are going to have an acquiring editor, join Bianca and myself on the show.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we will be reviewing query letters and opening pages just as we do.
[SPEAKER_02]: Only it'll be
[SPEAKER_02]: agent and acquiring editor as opposed to to agents.
[SPEAKER_02]: We will miss Carly.
[SPEAKER_02]: We are hoping this makes for field deep foam foam.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's all part of our master plan.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we definitely want to know how you guys feel about the segment once it is.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm predicting that the first acquiring editor to join us on the show, Kersai at Dep from a Shet, Grand Central, an imprint of Hishet.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm predicting that she and I are going to have different views on projects.
[SPEAKER_02]: Her size taste is
[SPEAKER_02]: In some buckets similar to mine and then others a little different and so it'll be really interesting to see how the two of us discuss projects.
[SPEAKER_01]: amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, we'll be alternating those one week.
[SPEAKER_01]: A books with hooks with coli and CC and then another one will be with our acquiring editors.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you coli and CC as always and for those of you who want to submit to the books with hooks segment, go to the Shedabad writing and go to the books with hooks tab.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks everyone.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bye.
[SPEAKER_01]: CC Lyra is a literary agent at Wendy Shuman Associates.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the Submission Guidelines at www.wshermon.com.
[SPEAKER_01]: Carly Waters is a literary agent at PS Literary Agency.
[SPEAKER_01]: But a work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the views expressed by Colli on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co-host.
[SPEAKER_01]: They do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS literary agency.