WEBVTT 00:00.091 --> 00:02.552 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a reason why we become therapists, right? 00:02.632 --> 00:05.593 [SPEAKER_01]: Because it shows more comfortable to be the carer. 00:06.494 --> 00:11.396 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I speak myself to be the carer, to be the receiver. 00:11.576 --> 00:15.637 [SPEAKER_00]: If you were to identify what you need as a human, what would that be? 00:15.937 --> 00:20.179 [SPEAKER_00]: And they're like, uh, and I felt the same way. 00:20.259 --> 00:25.021 [SPEAKER_00]: When I first began my own exploration of why I felt the way I did, 00:25.281 --> 00:28.103 [SPEAKER_00]: I had no idea what needs my head. 00:28.703 --> 00:32.246 [SPEAKER_00]: This is the therapy chat podcast with Laura Regan. 00:32.866 --> 00:34.587 [SPEAKER_00]: Hi, welcome back to Therapy Chat. 00:35.268 --> 00:42.352 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm your host Laura Regan, and today I'm very happy to be here with Alex Andrew Stevens. 00:43.333 --> 00:46.255 [SPEAKER_00]: Alex, thank you so much for being my guest on Therapy Chat today. 00:46.595 --> 00:49.517 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you so much for being willing to speak to me. 00:49.597 --> 00:50.838 [SPEAKER_01]: It was very exciting to be here. 00:51.625 --> 00:59.087 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so excited too and I'm really interested in the topic that we're going to be talking about, which is self abandonment. 00:59.548 --> 01:09.471 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a very interesting and important subject and I'm really excited to get into talking with you about it. 01:09.491 --> 01:16.973 [SPEAKER_00]: But before we dive into our topic, can you start off with telling our audience a little bit more about who you are and what you do? 01:17.418 --> 01:17.698 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure. 01:18.438 --> 01:41.007 [SPEAKER_01]: So I am a Gestalt Therapist by training and I've done a digital training in EMDR and internal pandemic systems and I am currently living in Lisbon, Portugal and I relocated here from London, UK, just coming up to two years ago. 01:42.564 --> 01:52.208 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was in the process of the relocation process, which was also about trying to redesign my life. 01:52.748 --> 02:00.812 [SPEAKER_01]: So I was trying to move away from just doing straight therapy and I was experimenting with different things like working with actors. 02:02.012 --> 02:04.273 [SPEAKER_01]: I also went from one childhood to two childhood. 02:04.293 --> 02:08.075 [SPEAKER_01]: So there were lots of changes and it was in that process that I realized that I was 02:10.052 --> 02:25.757 [SPEAKER_01]: Struggling a bit and a struggle of struggling kind of because of my own doing in a way sabotage it myself and so I just got very interested in the topic and trying to understand more about myself and 02:27.660 --> 02:35.784 [SPEAKER_01]: As a result of what I learned, I decided to start writing a book about that to try and support other women and men. 02:36.604 --> 02:43.188 [SPEAKER_01]: And I also started our podcast series, which is to interview people that are... 02:44.188 --> 02:53.498 [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting useful people to speak to on the topic who maybe have expertise in neuroscience or in lots of different things, not just in their therapy world. 02:54.759 --> 03:00.324 [SPEAKER_01]: For me to understand more and to also then potentially incorporate that into the book as well. 03:00.344 --> 03:02.947 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, very cool. 03:05.443 --> 03:21.631 [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess I'm particularly interested in working with high functioning people, because I think a lot of people would have said to me, I did say to me, wow, this is so amazing that you're doing this, you don't really care team with small, had a newborn at the time. 03:23.192 --> 03:45.141 [SPEAKER_01]: You're so capable and yet inside, I didn't necessarily pull that way, so on the outside I was like, function and capable, very gentleness, you feel that way, and that's also my experience with clients that I work with as well, that there can be people who apparently are high functioning, but there's still ways that they 03:46.883 --> 03:50.206 [SPEAKER_01]: sabotage or ways that they struggle, ways that they feel blocked. 03:50.727 --> 03:56.672 [SPEAKER_01]: So I wanted to use my experience to offer insights to others as well. 03:57.092 --> 03:57.733 [SPEAKER_00]: Beautiful. 03:58.754 --> 04:00.135 [SPEAKER_00]: That's so relatable. 04:02.217 --> 04:11.125 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that, you know, for example, so many therapists, this may not be true all over the world, but at least in the U.S. 04:13.078 --> 04:15.039 [SPEAKER_00]: Most therapists have master's degrees. 04:15.140 --> 04:26.187 [SPEAKER_00]: That means completing high school, college, and graduate school, or many have doctoral degrees, as well. 04:26.708 --> 04:34.493 [SPEAKER_00]: So to me, by definition, someone who puts that much time into school is pretty high functioning. 04:35.935 --> 04:38.676 [SPEAKER_00]: And you're expecting yourself 04:41.299 --> 04:45.643 [SPEAKER_00]: do a professional career that is very challenging. 04:45.803 --> 04:54.931 [SPEAKER_00]: So you have to be functioning pretty well and pretty highly to be able to sustain oneself in our work. 04:56.832 --> 04:59.575 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, when you talk with therapists, most of them are very 05:00.922 --> 05:19.940 [SPEAKER_00]: humble and, you know, and it's more than humility, you know, oftentimes it's more like low self-esteem or low self-worth that you hear, you know, oh, I'm not anything special, I'm just, you know, you know, I mean, I can relate to that and, and with 05:21.478 --> 05:29.044 [SPEAKER_00]: this podcast that's been going a long time and I have a successful practice and people will often say like how do you do it all? 05:29.144 --> 05:35.488 [SPEAKER_00]: I just not can't believe and I'm like me just like barely keeping it together. 05:35.508 --> 05:38.110 [SPEAKER_00]: So I feel a lot of the time. 05:38.211 --> 05:48.018 [SPEAKER_00]: So I can really relate to that idea of maybe looking on the outside like you've got it all together but I'm 05:51.999 --> 05:55.782 [SPEAKER_00]: really strives for achievement, who doesn't feel that way on the inside. 05:55.822 --> 06:00.725 [SPEAKER_00]: It's almost like that's what makes people seek that type of achievement. 06:00.745 --> 06:01.206 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. 06:01.226 --> 06:08.070 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what you think, or maybe there's some who never are doubting themselves at all. 06:08.451 --> 06:15.035 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I can definitely, I was smiling, as you said, what you said, because, yeah, I definitely feel like I work in 06:18.755 --> 06:24.260 [SPEAKER_01]: That's, you know, that's the experience when I speak to my colleagues as well, yeah. 06:25.541 --> 06:33.608 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think often we come into this profession because we have experienced wounding or trauma, we said to me, I did it anyway. 06:35.127 --> 06:46.090 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's, you know, whatever one says, actually, when we're trying to support others, what we're really trying to do is to support ourselves, or certainly, and speak for myself, I think that's what I was, that's what I had been doing. 06:47.010 --> 06:55.772 [SPEAKER_01]: And as you said, you know, even with EMA, and the extra training, and even with my, I think maybe eight years of personal therapy, 06:57.474 --> 07:02.523 [SPEAKER_01]: you know, are realized in this journey that, oh, actually there's a bit more to do. 07:03.184 --> 07:06.591 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, yeah, that's what I've been doing. 07:06.791 --> 07:10.417 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think what you just said there is, yeah, I guess it's. 07:11.542 --> 07:18.684 [SPEAKER_01]: probably aside a few minutes, humiliating to evaluate ourselves and question if we're good enough what we're doing. 07:19.304 --> 07:31.488 [SPEAKER_01]: But I also think there's a piece about that imposter syndrome or that feeling of unworthiness that for me I see as an example of a way that we can abandon ourselves. 07:32.108 --> 07:38.250 [SPEAKER_00]: You named imposter syndrome and I mean whenever I've talked about imposter syndrome with anyone, 07:40.410 --> 07:51.098 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like cute words, it sounds, oh, I just haven't been posture syndrome, but the feeling is excruciating. 07:53.339 --> 07:57.142 [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't seem like you are feeling like an imposter. 07:57.162 --> 07:58.903 [SPEAKER_00]: It seems like you are an imposter. 07:59.644 --> 07:59.824 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 08:01.345 --> 08:01.585 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 08:02.185 --> 08:02.526 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 08:03.256 --> 08:14.027 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the word shame comes to my mind to sort of feeling of not being good enough of being a fraud, potentially, you know, then my critical work. 08:14.047 --> 08:16.889 [SPEAKER_01]: So I mean, for me, an example of the way I showed up was, 08:18.909 --> 08:34.582 [SPEAKER_01]: When I decided to raise my fees and there was a critical voice telling me, you know, if you were you to raise your fees, how good are you really? 08:34.842 --> 08:37.365 [SPEAKER_01]: Are you deserving of raising your fees? 08:38.950 --> 08:43.233 [SPEAKER_01]: so that was kind of my experience with that and it came up in other ways as well. 08:44.053 --> 08:53.560 [SPEAKER_01]: I was trying to branch into working with actors, working with a therapist or coach for actors, and there even more it was, you know, this critical voice I suppose. 08:55.881 --> 09:08.210 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it telling me that he was like to do that and did I have the skill set and comparing me to others who seem to be doing it better or who seem to be more successful than I was 09:10.172 --> 09:12.054 [SPEAKER_01]: as characters or therapists. 09:14.136 --> 09:29.189 [SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, then I just kind of got really a curious about this critical voice and this sense of not being worthy or not being good enough and really trying to understand how it had developed. 09:31.090 --> 09:34.193 [SPEAKER_01]: Which obviously goes back to childhood and relational trauma. 09:36.331 --> 09:58.069 [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, as you know, that we tend to make things about us as kids, because we have that emotional raising, we don't have that developed cortex, front to cortex, you know, so if somehow my parent failed me or was unhappy, it was just a way to build sense of control to believe that. 09:58.950 --> 10:08.997 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm the problem and the one that's got not good enough, therefore if I can change myself and make myself better, mommy will feel happier. 10:10.342 --> 10:13.823 [SPEAKER_01]: obviously I wasn't actually thinking that as a kid, but that's the kind of process. 10:14.743 --> 10:32.949 [SPEAKER_01]: And so being able to understand that process more, but then really connect with that younger part who feels that way and who's telling herself that she's not up to scratch, that was a way that I, you know, I started to connect more with that part. 10:34.785 --> 10:55.016 [SPEAKER_01]: and to try and bring empathy towards her and compassion and walks and sort of let her know, sort of update the system really, update the the memo that actually this is not back you, you know, you are worthy and deserving of the fees that you charge but not just that, the 10:58.415 --> 11:00.897 [SPEAKER_01]: The belief in yourself is a good enough. 11:01.377 --> 11:02.858 [SPEAKER_01]: Therapist or good enough. 11:03.859 --> 11:05.460 [SPEAKER_01]: Person worthy of success. 11:06.781 --> 11:08.122 [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever success looks like. 11:08.622 --> 11:10.343 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, to me or to whoever. 11:12.505 --> 11:13.806 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so that's that. 11:14.266 --> 11:18.869 [SPEAKER_01]: One of the ways that I understood and worked with in Poster Syndrome. 11:20.528 --> 11:30.511 [SPEAKER_01]: And then, of course, you know, through the interviews that I've been doing with others, I've also looked at the contribution of 11:32.270 --> 11:35.052 [SPEAKER_01]: systemic shame as well onto imposter syndrome. 11:35.732 --> 11:41.316 [SPEAKER_01]: So I spoke with a Dr. Devon Price, who's recently called I'm Learning Shame. 11:42.197 --> 11:58.068 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's about this idea that if we do, if we do what you point, a marginal position, whether it be because we're a woman, or because we are a person of color, or because we have a disability, or when you're a divergence, then we're already, 11:59.148 --> 12:04.492 [SPEAKER_01]: due to the inequalities in society, we're already an imposter. 12:06.253 --> 12:17.840 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's the societal contribution to imposter syndrome, and then there's also the personal contribution to imposter syndrome, due to relational trauma. 12:19.021 --> 12:25.085 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you're really bringing up something important there. 12:26.466 --> 12:35.290 [SPEAKER_00]: You're already in a posture if you don't fit the straight white male paradigm, right? 12:36.990 --> 12:44.253 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe straight white Christian male, and the right brand of Christianity too, at least in the US. 12:44.273 --> 12:45.374 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a big thing. 12:47.535 --> 12:48.475 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like a... 12:54.255 --> 12:57.819 [SPEAKER_00]: It's an identity that people don't even necessarily. 12:57.899 --> 13:06.289 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like something that people just slide on without even, you know, that's the way you're supposed to be. 13:06.409 --> 13:14.559 [SPEAKER_00]: So if your gender doesn't conform with that, if your appearance doesn't conform with that, your skin color, your culture, ethnicity, 13:17.266 --> 13:19.227 [SPEAKER_00]: you're already not right. 13:19.747 --> 13:43.894 [SPEAKER_00]: And then what you said about relational trauma there, I mean, what came up for me is the internalized shame of the identity that doesn't match what you should be if you're not going to be an imposter in Western culture. 13:45.619 --> 13:51.223 [SPEAKER_00]: And then how, I mean, I don't want to confuse anything. 13:51.283 --> 14:10.835 [SPEAKER_00]: But when you were speaking before, and you said about, if I could be good enough, and then mommy would be happy, that what immediately came to mind for me there is how mothers are disenfranchised in a way 14:14.317 --> 14:31.218 [SPEAKER_00]: The family system in modernity and current civilized culture, colonized culture, is under resources because there's a lack of support around mothering, right? 14:35.457 --> 14:40.379 [SPEAKER_00]: the fact that someone has to be earning enough income to support this whole system. 14:40.499 --> 14:53.142 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, in this traditional dynamic of mother father or the father's earning money and the mothers doing all the child raising, like, that's not sustainable for anyone. 14:55.163 --> 14:58.424 [SPEAKER_00]: And then that sort of like lateral violence. 14:59.144 --> 15:02.345 [SPEAKER_00]: And then, you know, the horizontal, 15:06.710 --> 15:12.995 [SPEAKER_00]: under-resourced caregivers to the children who literally do depend on those adults or survival. 15:13.475 --> 15:14.976 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a relational trauma. 15:16.037 --> 15:31.108 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, you're right, and I felt quite uplifted when I was thinking about this small and thinking about what you just said, the, the fact that mothers aren't supposed 15:33.225 --> 15:35.186 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, even bannies aren't supportive, right? 15:35.206 --> 15:40.329 [SPEAKER_01]: Because you're very, very, your family is, and they say it takes a village to raise a child. 15:41.369 --> 15:52.015 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that really helped me, somehow, to also live to a piece of the... Just make me feel more hopeful about being able to... 15:55.388 --> 16:17.572 [SPEAKER_01]: not give this part that believes that she's unworthy so much power to help her to I suppose unburden some of that unworthiness because of recognising that actually, yeah not when he was at not her problem but also her mother was experiencing her own stuff as a result of not getting the support she needed. 16:19.192 --> 16:24.653 [SPEAKER_01]: So sort of thinking about that as well, the influence of society on 16:26.843 --> 16:41.324 [SPEAKER_01]: on my mother and therefore on me, somehow felt uplifting, not because it's it's nice, but somehow then you're more able to sort of separate and put that to one side. 16:42.773 --> 16:43.033 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 16:44.014 --> 16:55.907 [SPEAKER_00]: As you say uplifting, I'm thinking about there's like a conclusion that a child makes if parent isn't able to meet them where they need to be met. 16:56.127 --> 16:57.048 [SPEAKER_00]: The conclusion is 16:58.349 --> 17:02.233 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you don't want me, you don't care about me. 17:02.253 --> 17:04.615 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't matter to you, things like that. 17:05.055 --> 17:07.477 [SPEAKER_00]: It feels very uplifting to see. 17:07.717 --> 17:11.761 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not a matter of how your parent felt about you. 17:12.421 --> 17:15.144 [SPEAKER_00]: It's what your parent also didn't receive that they needed. 17:15.424 --> 17:24.492 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I find really hopeful about understanding the impact of trauma and attachment and a systemic view, like you're saying, 17:25.680 --> 17:34.905 [SPEAKER_00]: We can't separate the effects of the environment we live in, no, no, yeah, what happens in there? 17:35.145 --> 17:44.370 [SPEAKER_00]: And inside that environment, we can't separate the effects of culture and the influence of lack of resource. 17:44.870 --> 17:45.891 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, my agree. 17:47.011 --> 17:47.212 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 17:55.650 --> 18:22.290 [SPEAKER_01]: I suppose understanding that means it's easier to, as I said to, to recognize, well, there was a bunch of these that I had that weren't met, but there was a bunch of these that my parent had that didn't, that weren't met, you know, and I'm particularly thinking, because in my book, I also took about transgenerational trouble, the trauma gets passed out through generations, but actually thinking about my particular family, there was a, there was a kind of 18:26.301 --> 18:27.622 [SPEAKER_01]: along the fairly line as well. 18:27.802 --> 18:39.130 [SPEAKER_01]: So, yes, there was a trauma that got passed down, but there was also, and there was also my mother was just a single parent, and I think my, you know, my great-grandmother as well. 18:40.571 --> 18:51.358 [SPEAKER_01]: So, just again, as you said, recognising the, the interplay between society and the personal trauma and how it is not really possible to separate the night. 18:53.737 --> 18:54.457 [SPEAKER_00]: very true. 18:54.918 --> 19:05.224 [SPEAKER_00]: And those patterns that do repeat from generation to generation in mind, we have a pattern of mothers banning their children. 19:05.665 --> 19:18.653 [SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, you can say, great grandmother, grandmother, mother, me, my children, my siblings and their children, like you can see that pattern 19:23.596 --> 19:38.630 [SPEAKER_00]: play it out or how people have tried to break cycles and, you know, and it's like, um, you often hear, I mean, there's so many examples of this addiction. 19:40.497 --> 19:47.582 [SPEAKER_00]: team pregnancy, there's so many examples of where these patterns just tend to recur our generation after generation. 19:47.702 --> 19:54.727 [SPEAKER_00]: Even when people in the previous generation really didn't want that to happen for the next generation. 19:55.487 --> 19:58.890 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, uh, they're very, very powerful. 19:58.950 --> 20:00.130 [SPEAKER_01]: These, they 20:07.055 --> 20:28.261 [SPEAKER_01]: you know that can be out of awareness and apparently totally not what we want but nevertheless we end up repeating the patterns so you know speaking for myself I am also a certain apparent um is that what I dreamed and hoped for when I was a teenager no but that's how it turned 20:34.578 --> 20:51.808 [SPEAKER_01]: the parts of me, the sort of culture, independent or the parts that get attracted to people that are unavailable in some way, that's also being part of what I've been chewing on and trying to understand more over the last two years. 20:52.308 --> 20:58.492 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, that's an example of how generational trauma has been passed on in our family. 20:58.952 --> 21:01.174 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you made me think of something. 21:01.334 --> 21:01.414 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm 21:03.815 --> 21:28.300 [SPEAKER_00]: intergenerational patterning lately myself and I thought about another theme in my family as divorce women initiating divorces and that can be looked at as like my great grandmother in the early 1900s got divorced that's not so common. 21:29.044 --> 21:29.544 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 21:30.665 --> 21:51.538 [SPEAKER_00]: And then my grandmother did and my mom did and you know it could be looked at as like oh they can't hold a relationship or they can't you know they they can't make a marriage succeed or they can't keep a family together like that would be kind of some of the messaging around that but another perspective could be 21:52.458 --> 22:01.303 [SPEAKER_00]: they weren't willing to stay in relationships that weren't working, you know, and I think that's a that's a more strengths-based way to look at it. 22:03.108 --> 22:16.016 [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, because women are so often disempowered in Western culture, I mean, it's kind of like part of the paradigm is man on top, woman down, you know. 22:18.998 --> 22:26.943 [SPEAKER_00]: Solo parenting may be the wisest and safest choice for many people, and it's not easy. 22:33.517 --> 22:38.591 [SPEAKER_00]: But it doesn't have to be, you know, there's a lot of stigma around. 22:40.256 --> 22:41.157 [SPEAKER_00]: solar parenting. 22:41.897 --> 22:49.223 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, when you talked about your history of great grandmother and grandmother, you know, yeah, good for them. 22:49.243 --> 23:08.118 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, I mean, it's never a good if a relationship ends, but you know, as you said, if it's, as you said, if it's because they've just went happy to stay or were taking a stand, and then that to me, the great great, that's a sign of courage 23:09.419 --> 23:10.581 [SPEAKER_01]: something to be celebrated. 23:11.462 --> 23:11.683 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 23:13.225 --> 23:23.322 [SPEAKER_01]: And as you say, um, yeah, just because something is different, like sort of parenting, it's better than, I mean, 23:25.748 --> 23:38.080 [SPEAKER_01]: And one of my passions could have been to be involved with someone who's got addictions, for example, like I don't think that would have made for a very good sort of family atmosphere to bring kids in to you. 23:38.660 --> 23:49.831 [SPEAKER_01]: So in that respect, I think, you know, if I'm going to be generous of myself for, you know, then I think I've done better right this way than how I could have done. 23:51.833 --> 23:55.856 [SPEAKER_01]: And at the same time, yeah, there was a pathway that would like to find a partner. 23:55.896 --> 24:04.762 [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I also know that I worked with a lot of women in similar positions, who were sort of functioning, but very independent and struggling to find the partner. 24:05.542 --> 24:18.491 [SPEAKER_01]: And so then it's looking at ways that we can sabotage ourselves around that as well through finding a difficult to trust or finding difficult to receive. 24:19.640 --> 24:19.900 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 24:20.541 --> 24:21.702 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 24:21.722 --> 24:37.981 [SPEAKER_00]: So some of the things that we've been talking about as self-sabotaging behaviors in a way we're talking about behaviors that are adverse to our goals potentially when we're high-achieving people, high-functioning, high-achieving people. 24:38.121 --> 24:38.322 [SPEAKER_00]: So 24:40.635 --> 24:47.361 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about how we develop these self-abandoning patterns. 24:48.342 --> 24:55.048 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, and yeah, as you said, when I say self-sabotaging, I mean, yeah, they're not there. 24:55.869 --> 25:00.534 [SPEAKER_01]: They're getting in the way of what I want, or what I say I want, or think I want. 25:01.014 --> 25:03.196 [SPEAKER_01]: But of course they're not. 25:03.276 --> 25:06.299 [SPEAKER_01]: They're actually, you know, in Gestalt Therapy, we took like creative adjustments. 25:08.047 --> 25:27.604 [SPEAKER_01]: as in the way, the best intelligent and strategic way that we learn to be, to express ourselves, growing up in order to fit in, in order to manage our childhood situation. 25:29.065 --> 25:31.147 [SPEAKER_01]: So in that respect, they're not bad. 25:33.088 --> 25:34.850 [SPEAKER_01]: They just maybe perhaps rigid. 25:36.195 --> 25:39.296 [SPEAKER_01]: these behaviours and maybe needing a bit more flexibility. 25:40.197 --> 25:48.460 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, so another example is for example, yeah, I think something around being out for independent or hyper independent. 25:50.081 --> 25:55.643 [SPEAKER_01]: And even just saying here, I noticed I have some shame because I don't know, it isn't. 25:57.957 --> 26:03.919 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it's really got a good rap that word or it doesn't to me, I feel a bit critical of that word. 26:05.139 --> 26:08.240 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, that's probably a good way to describe me. 26:08.760 --> 26:15.622 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it comes through, for example, the findings have got to trust. 26:15.802 --> 26:26.645 [SPEAKER_01]: And trust can include trusting ourselves, so trusting myself to be a good judge of character, for example, 26:29.125 --> 26:34.889 [SPEAKER_01]: trusting myself to be able to be vulnerable with someone. 26:35.850 --> 26:47.318 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, particularly I suppose it's most high risk to be vulnerable with someone when it's, there's a sort of, you know, more of an intense relationship, like a romantic relationship. 26:48.359 --> 26:54.543 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's easier to be vulnerable with friendships because, you know, we tend to have a few friends, right? 26:54.584 --> 26:57.886 [SPEAKER_01]: So it sort of feels like spreading the risk a bit. 26:59.978 --> 27:20.320 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's trust is also trusting others as well, trusting others that they mean what they say, trusting others that they're going to say what they do, trusting others that they're going to take care of us, that they say they're going to take care of us or be caring towards us. 27:22.302 --> 27:46.912 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think we, or I, and but I think I'm not just speaking myself, there's also trusting life or trusting that if I if I take a risk like, decide to relocate to Lisbon, that it's going to work out, not necessarily that it's going to work out exactly as I wanted, like in a Walt Disney movie, but trusting them, it will be okay. 27:47.992 --> 27:49.553 [SPEAKER_01]: And I will I will be okay. 27:51.343 --> 28:05.220 [SPEAKER_01]: and be able to make things work and I think all of this trust because that's probably the biggest chapter in my in my book so far then it's looking at how we learned not to trust. 28:08.252 --> 28:11.476 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, thank obvious ways, right? 28:11.496 --> 28:14.560 [SPEAKER_01]: So perhaps not being able to trust our reality. 28:14.620 --> 28:22.109 [SPEAKER_01]: So we grew up in home where things were brushed under the carpet, you know, or bad stuff would happen in the next day. 28:22.129 --> 28:24.091 [SPEAKER_01]: This is if nothing had happened. 28:24.992 --> 28:46.855 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a way that we can not trust our own perception or our own reality and the add a lot of clients that I work with people I work with who have similar experiences or yeah, I'm not trusting the other person to do what they say to me what they say, especially if we had a caregiver who was very volatile or, you know, if I let walk on any shells. 28:50.437 --> 28:57.320 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think when we've had that experience and it's also difficult to trust ourselves, if we weren't able to trust our caregiver. 28:59.320 --> 29:04.622 [SPEAKER_01]: Similarly to what I said with the child that learns that it's because of me, it's my fault. 29:05.462 --> 29:07.063 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, if things are child, we're similarly. 29:08.203 --> 29:12.105 [SPEAKER_01]: If we're told, oh, you know, this nothing wrong or you're not sad. 29:13.673 --> 29:21.939 [SPEAKER_01]: There's nothing to be sad about it, or you're a rich, such a lucky child, when actually bad things happen, then we learn not to trust ourselves. 29:24.481 --> 29:35.310 [SPEAKER_01]: So, so this is a, as I understand, you know, the beginning, then, of becoming potentially very, sort of hyper-independent or ultra-independent, is sort of safer to just, 29:37.000 --> 30:01.158 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, bring everything in and sort of become a bit of the nylons, um, because that way I can feel in control, that way I can feel safe, that way I don't have to risk the disappointment and the heartbreak and the fear that might come from trusting, you know, there's just to myself trusting in life and then that not working out. 30:02.695 --> 30:16.298 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think part of my experience here in creating this new life for myself and this has been learning to trust and to take that leap. 30:16.338 --> 30:25.821 [SPEAKER_01]: Not just the leap of relocating, but the leap in terms of trying to write my book, trying to create a new way of working for myself. 30:31.366 --> 30:31.966 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 30:32.567 --> 30:34.207 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it is so brave. 30:34.307 --> 30:48.894 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm thinking about, I mentioned to you before we start recording that I was in Portugal a couple of months ago and as a woman, I've traveled as a woman. 30:49.912 --> 31:12.337 [SPEAKER_00]: living as a woman that I, as I am, I have traveled to Europe a few times now by myself and just the process of navigating everything myself, I would feel these big overwhelming fears of how am I going to figure everything out, how am I going to be able to do that? 31:14.158 --> 31:14.899 [SPEAKER_00]: how does this work? 31:14.939 --> 31:15.559 [SPEAKER_00]: How does that work? 31:15.579 --> 31:16.179 [SPEAKER_00]: How does this work? 31:16.219 --> 31:16.820 [SPEAKER_00]: How does that work? 31:16.960 --> 31:19.182 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know and I don't have a mental model in my mind at all. 31:19.202 --> 31:21.203 [SPEAKER_00]: So how am I going to figure it out if I don't speak the language? 31:21.263 --> 31:41.557 [SPEAKER_00]: And those experiences, and being able to figure it out, just really helped me feel like, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can 31:42.322 --> 31:54.388 [SPEAKER_00]: do things for myself like I was raised in a way where when it comes to hyper individualism I would say that's definitely the way I've lived since teenage years. 31:54.649 --> 32:04.154 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I've changed that a lot now, but you know, I'm in my 50s and probably my first 45 years. 32:04.274 --> 32:09.837 [SPEAKER_00]: I was very hyper independent and it was because when I was a kid, 32:11.650 --> 32:13.151 [SPEAKER_00]: had to figure everything out myself. 32:13.211 --> 32:15.073 [SPEAKER_00]: I was alone a lot. 32:15.173 --> 32:20.737 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, when I was really small, I was with my parents. 32:21.097 --> 32:25.401 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, but then I was be left with an older sibling who was a kid too. 32:25.481 --> 32:28.043 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, they're all doing their thing. 32:28.103 --> 32:29.364 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm doing my thing. 32:30.505 --> 32:33.667 [SPEAKER_00]: We're feeding ourselves or figuring out, you know. 32:34.328 --> 32:34.508 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 32:35.704 --> 32:39.107 [SPEAKER_00]: Anything that came up or happened, we had to deal with that ourselves. 32:39.407 --> 32:41.389 [SPEAKER_00]: There weren't really adults around. 32:41.729 --> 32:51.597 [SPEAKER_00]: So the hyper-independence is like this sense for me of don't trust anyone but yourself. 32:51.897 --> 32:53.258 [SPEAKER_00]: You can't count on other people. 32:55.228 --> 33:16.245 [SPEAKER_00]: You'll be disappointed if you expect other people to like anticipate your needs to look out for you, to care how you feel, to want to help you, you're not going to have consistent, you know, you're not going to have, I didn't have consistent experiences of that so you're not going to. 33:18.346 --> 33:19.067 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't expect that. 33:21.618 --> 33:33.842 [SPEAKER_00]: But then I also can see over the years as I've been healing from that, those experiences, how you can't figure everything out yourself. 33:33.902 --> 33:46.266 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, it's really not a complete life when you're only living inside of your own little bubble that you don't let anyone into and you think that you have to know everything. 33:46.286 --> 33:48.547 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's it, you know? 33:48.567 --> 33:49.387 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 33:50.339 --> 33:50.619 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 33:51.219 --> 33:52.540 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not sustainable. 33:53.300 --> 33:53.660 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 33:54.301 --> 34:08.486 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think, you know, all the more so, realize that when I had kids as well, like it's not sustainable to be trying to do everything on your own and parent to kids as well. 34:09.547 --> 34:11.047 [SPEAKER_01]: I can not energy it not sustainable. 34:11.127 --> 34:12.588 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just not helpful for anyone. 34:13.588 --> 34:16.870 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because, you know, it doesn't 34:21.311 --> 34:22.432 [SPEAKER_01]: nor is it helpful for me. 34:22.772 --> 34:23.873 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so it's just not. 34:24.413 --> 34:25.074 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just not. 34:26.435 --> 34:28.296 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just not sustainable, helpful. 34:28.456 --> 34:38.263 [SPEAKER_01]: Nor did I want it or to be so hyper independent, but it almost felt like something that I couldn't breathe free from. 34:39.444 --> 34:50.772 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that was part of the inquiry into it and trying to understand it more and figure out what is it actually doing, how is it actually showing 34:51.885 --> 35:01.776 [SPEAKER_01]: how am I actually keeping this process going and then try to experiment with things differently? 35:03.798 --> 35:09.384 [SPEAKER_01]: Whether it be little things like, in Portugal, they're very, um, 35:10.977 --> 35:12.477 [SPEAKER_01]: affection towards children. 35:12.497 --> 35:23.501 [SPEAKER_01]: I compared to the UK, you know, when I arrived here with my newborn, you get rushed straight to the front of the queue in the supermarket. 35:23.681 --> 35:24.521 [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, you go. 35:26.442 --> 35:27.702 [SPEAKER_01]: That wasn't my experience in the UK. 35:30.163 --> 35:33.705 [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, and I just thought, I thought really awkward about that. 35:33.825 --> 35:35.805 [SPEAKER_01]: And I would say, no, no, it's okay. 35:35.905 --> 35:38.186 [SPEAKER_01]: We can weigh, and I'm there with my one month old. 35:38.266 --> 35:40.447 [SPEAKER_01]: We can weigh it the back of the kit in the supermarket. 35:40.467 --> 35:41.628 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I know, no, no, no, no, no. 35:42.568 --> 35:51.372 [SPEAKER_01]: So that was just a small example of how I then experimented with, just trying to really just be okay with accepting help, accepting support, even as that's difficult. 35:52.212 --> 35:53.553 [SPEAKER_00]: What did that feel like? 35:53.613 --> 35:55.974 [SPEAKER_00]: I know you said that you're like, no, no, no, we're okay. 35:56.014 --> 35:59.055 [SPEAKER_00]: But what did it feel like to allow help? 36:00.266 --> 36:24.323 [SPEAKER_01]: Once you tried to accept it, well, I mean, it felt unfamiliar, it felt a bit, I felt it awkward, a bit, again like, oh, you know, I'm comfortable, like, maybe a bit like an apostle, like I don't really need the help, but yes, the more I did it, well, yeah, the more I sort of could lean in, so I'm free and into actually, well, yeah, it's nice. 36:26.711 --> 36:55.263 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, like if you can't have people like taking care of you and tending to you when you have a one month old that that's like the time that you're going to get that you know and I don't mean that in a shaming way I'm saying like that is a golden opportunity to soak that up if you can allow it but it's like so it's for me to allow myself to receive support and care 36:56.696 --> 37:11.616 [SPEAKER_00]: was uncomfortable like an ill-fitting suit, you know, like, I keep, like, really viscerally almost terrifying. 37:12.016 --> 37:13.318 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I can relate to that. 37:14.510 --> 37:42.118 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think there's a reason why we become therapists, I, because it shows more comfortable to be the caref, well, I speak myself, to be the caref, to be the receiver, yeah, if you have familiar with receiving, if you're not familiar with receiving, yeah, and also if that was kind of the role of the creative adjustment that 37:43.245 --> 37:46.627 [SPEAKER_01]: like I took on anyway as a kid to be in there. 37:49.208 --> 37:56.793 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the sort of print by child or, you know, I suppose that the child therapists in a way. 37:57.733 --> 37:57.954 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 37:58.414 --> 38:11.641 [SPEAKER_00]: This is all very familiar to my experience, so I'm really grateful that you're writing about this and talking about this and using your podcasts to educate people 38:14.752 --> 38:21.335 [SPEAKER_00]: self abandonment because I don't think that people know they're doing it. 38:21.475 --> 38:22.456 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I didn't. 38:23.016 --> 38:33.421 [SPEAKER_00]: I, and I have seen this with many clients too who just don't really, we can't really relate to the question like, 38:36.961 --> 38:41.025 [SPEAKER_00]: If you were to identify what you need as a human, what would that be? 38:41.346 --> 38:45.950 [SPEAKER_00]: And they're like, uh, and I felt the same way. 38:46.031 --> 38:56.081 [SPEAKER_00]: When I first began my own exploration of why I felt the way I did, I had no idea what needs my head. 38:57.487 --> 39:06.094 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, or really any connection to a sense that everything wasn't fine, you know, I didn't feel fine. 39:06.194 --> 39:13.741 [SPEAKER_00]: I kind of hated myself, but I also, if you asked me how I was or what my child was like, I would have said, fine. 39:15.342 --> 39:15.762 [SPEAKER_00]: I think. 39:17.144 --> 39:17.324 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 39:17.344 --> 39:20.947 [SPEAKER_01]: As far as I know, yeah, that sort of 39:21.933 --> 39:29.716 [SPEAKER_01]: what comes to mind then for me is that how we learn to sacrifice our own needs to all bury them to the extent that we don't even know what they are. 39:31.656 --> 39:33.077 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think I did the same. 39:33.497 --> 39:38.259 [SPEAKER_01]: And then we spent the whole of my 20s trying to figure out what it is that I did actually need in one. 39:40.220 --> 39:42.480 [SPEAKER_01]: And then, probably spent my 30s and 40s trying to 39:51.102 --> 39:54.983 [SPEAKER_01]: still working on it, but I think play play sensey. 39:55.263 --> 39:55.783 [SPEAKER_01]: Yet in that. 39:56.443 --> 39:58.144 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I feel like it's a journey. 39:58.464 --> 39:59.624 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a lifelong journey. 40:00.344 --> 40:01.024 [SPEAKER_00]: It is indeed. 40:01.565 --> 40:01.785 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep. 40:02.945 --> 40:10.467 [SPEAKER_00]: What would you say for someone who's listening to this and it's like, well, how would I know if I was self abandoning? 40:10.527 --> 40:11.927 [SPEAKER_00]: What would you give 40:14.066 --> 40:16.629 [SPEAKER_00]: someone to consider. 40:17.169 --> 40:28.520 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, I don't know, simply put it would be kind of, do you, how happy it may be, have peers a bit to very tell life. 40:28.540 --> 40:39.110 [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, how contented her satisfied you feeling your life in different areas of your life, right, career relationships, relationship, show self. 40:40.646 --> 40:48.569 [SPEAKER_01]: And also, any areas where you aren't satisfied, you know, how much agency do you feel you have around that? 40:49.229 --> 40:52.450 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, is it just, you know, what you need to do differently? 40:52.470 --> 40:54.690 [SPEAKER_01]: You just, for some reason, I've got reds to do that. 40:55.271 --> 40:57.391 [SPEAKER_01]: Or do you feel stuck to you feel trapped? 40:57.411 --> 40:58.432 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you feel unclear? 40:58.452 --> 40:59.652 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you feel confused? 41:00.432 --> 41:06.714 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I think for me, it's about when you just, you don't really know how to change it. 41:10.535 --> 41:14.697 [SPEAKER_01]: The self-abandoning is a process that's happening and it's about what I have already aware of. 41:15.817 --> 41:33.903 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's because of things that we waste, we learn to self-abandon in relationship, in our childhoods, whether that be through overworking and becoming a worker-holay or procrastinating and just not being able to shift the procrastination. 41:35.411 --> 41:50.075 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm experiencing burn eye, just continuing relational patterns, similar racial patterns that are not serving us, either we're sabotaging them, or we're just choosing people that are not right, not like us. 41:53.636 --> 41:58.558 [SPEAKER_01]: The way we speak to ourselves, you know, really we harsh in a critic that we just can't seem to shift. 42:01.816 --> 42:15.065 [SPEAKER_01]: sacrificing ourselves, just feeling powerless and having no sense of agency, so I think all of these are ways that we can, how self-bending in my view can show up. 42:15.465 --> 42:16.025 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. 42:16.045 --> 42:25.292 [SPEAKER_00]: I was going to ask if you would just expand a little bit on that idea of self-sacrificing because you talked before about being at a carer. 42:26.092 --> 42:37.820 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think that's something that especially those of us socialize as female do think is how we're supposed to be because that's really what culture tells us. 42:38.480 --> 42:44.925 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so there's that cultural element isn't there that it's almost sort of glorified to sacrifice ourselves. 42:45.005 --> 42:47.706 [SPEAKER_01]: It's almost sacrificing, you know, especially in the 42:48.887 --> 43:12.712 [SPEAKER_01]: Christo, Judeo, religion, then there's also the attachment piece, so I think for me anyway and if many others, it felt really my way of feeling in control or surviving as a kid was to be very, very, very aware of what was going on with my caregiver. 43:13.350 --> 43:15.871 [SPEAKER_01]: What mood are they in, how are they? 43:15.991 --> 43:17.572 [SPEAKER_01]: So all of my focus was on them. 43:18.792 --> 43:23.034 [SPEAKER_01]: And if they were happy, then I was at peace when I was happy and if they weren't, then I wasn't. 43:23.594 --> 43:32.778 [SPEAKER_01]: That was the way I sort of found to sort of try and manage or control the situation that felt quite volatile often. 43:34.439 --> 43:39.121 [SPEAKER_01]: But in that, I'm sacrificing my own needs, my own desires. 43:40.835 --> 43:46.117 [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm putting the caregivers first because that's what's going to help me feel safe. 43:47.478 --> 43:58.222 [SPEAKER_01]: But then that pattern continue so that when I got to the age of 18, I had absolutely no clue what I needed, what I wanted, I spent the whole 20s just kind of doing whatever because I had no clue. 43:58.502 --> 44:01.323 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's what I mean by self sacrifice. 44:03.484 --> 44:05.685 [SPEAKER_01]: But you know the way it showed up in the in the 44:08.240 --> 44:18.308 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, a combination of the two, obviously, as a mother, this is idea that I do need to put my knee secondary or that's the idea that I took on. 44:18.969 --> 44:25.614 [SPEAKER_01]: Plus, then my process of kind of naturally doing that anyway or naturally doing that as a result of my trauma. 44:27.175 --> 44:34.241 [SPEAKER_01]: And then just really realizing that that wasn't sustainable, I was feeling burned out and that I wasn't being a good parent. 44:35.858 --> 44:53.068 [SPEAKER_01]: So, sort of having to force myself to do things differently and accept support and and put my needs higher up in the picking order to be a good parent which is a good enough parent shall we say which is what felt very, very important to me. 44:53.648 --> 45:00.172 [SPEAKER_01]: But then the other way it showed up is just you know noticing my attitude to work 45:01.616 --> 45:29.448 [SPEAKER_01]: and feeling a lot of motivation but also some fear around am I going to make my new professional 2.0 boykin life successful am I going to make money am I going to get clients but noticing that then the way I approached it was almost it was coming from fear and it was coming through kind of abandoning myself in the process or sacrifice in my own need for rest or enjoyment in order 45:32.942 --> 45:43.832 [SPEAKER_01]: and, you know, then that that Protestant Lutheran work ethic that's very much holds a lot of power in our society as well. 45:44.412 --> 45:56.223 [SPEAKER_01]: And so just realizing how hard it was for me to, to let go of that, even though rationally I knew and I'd tell rationally you tell all my clients, you know, you have to make time for rest. 45:57.840 --> 46:16.387 [SPEAKER_01]: and enjoyment as well, I still wasn't able to do, just so that again, I was recently been reading a bit more about that because of someone I'm back to interview you know and they really talk about this idea, the sacrificing ourselves makes us worthy. 46:17.808 --> 46:28.356 [SPEAKER_01]: I realized even though I don't agree with that rationing, I realized that that was script was kind of running in the background, almost in order to be worthy, I needed to sacrifice myself. 46:29.037 --> 46:34.121 [SPEAKER_01]: I needed to not struggle because that's another part of it. 46:36.535 --> 46:44.557 [SPEAKER_01]: and not enjoy, so that's, I guess that's a bit more about what I mean by, the sort of sacrifice piece, different elements. 46:44.637 --> 47:02.040 [SPEAKER_01]: There's the, the, the, the, the Lutheran work, Protestant music, by setting ethic, there's the ideas that we have in our culture about what motherhood means, and then there's the, the sort of creative adjustment in response to your ball of 47:03.420 --> 47:03.880 [SPEAKER_00]: parent. 47:04.601 --> 47:05.861 [SPEAKER_00]: So relatable. 47:06.262 --> 47:16.707 [SPEAKER_00]: Everything you said and I really appreciate how you expanded on that and how you talked about some of the things that people might 47:18.547 --> 47:26.052 [SPEAKER_00]: be thinking, because I know that when people are listening and they're like, hmm, do I do that? 47:26.552 --> 47:29.374 [SPEAKER_00]: They're not going, oh, I'm going to abandon myself now. 47:29.834 --> 47:42.242 [SPEAKER_00]: Nobody's thinking that, you know, we call it that and it's a really useful term, but yeah, it's more of those thoughts of, well, I should be doing more, or I didn't do that well enough, or, you know, 47:44.136 --> 47:46.777 [SPEAKER_00]: to be good means to be self-sacrificing. 47:46.958 --> 47:52.821 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that is like, ooh, generationally, just thinking about that Protestant work ethic. 47:53.341 --> 47:56.302 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that has so much power. 47:57.003 --> 48:05.747 [SPEAKER_00]: And we have to ask ourselves, and this is something that they say in my field of social work, but might be what you learn too. 48:05.807 --> 48:12.271 [SPEAKER_00]: But when you think systemically, it's like who benefits from us self-sacrificing. 48:13.445 --> 48:14.485 [SPEAKER_00]: the power structures. 48:15.206 --> 48:17.487 [SPEAKER_00]: Who benefits from us overworking? 48:18.047 --> 48:19.168 [SPEAKER_00]: The power structures. 48:19.708 --> 48:23.550 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's not us. 48:23.850 --> 48:26.591 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's not our families. 48:26.731 --> 48:38.837 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like we're all just doing all of this just for the billionaires to be richer and more greedy when we could be doing what really nourishes and 48:44.073 --> 48:46.894 [SPEAKER_00]: and spreading that in our families and communities. 48:47.254 --> 48:52.295 [SPEAKER_00]: And that doesn't serve the power structure right? 48:53.175 --> 48:54.536 [SPEAKER_00]: No, exactly. 48:54.976 --> 48:56.076 [SPEAKER_00]: It serves the people. 48:57.117 --> 48:57.737 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly. 48:57.797 --> 48:58.057 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 49:00.477 --> 49:01.538 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 49:01.558 --> 49:02.078 [SPEAKER_01]: Subversive. 49:02.118 --> 49:02.558 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly. 49:03.158 --> 49:03.438 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 49:05.119 --> 49:07.739 [SPEAKER_01]: And I suppose that this is an interesting time, isn't it? 49:08.139 --> 49:09.520 [SPEAKER_01]: In terms of work. 49:09.820 --> 49:09.920 [SPEAKER_01]: And 49:11.987 --> 49:35.144 [SPEAKER_01]: sacrifice elsewhere, given the changes that are happening with AI etc and what the future work is even going to look like so it could be an opportunity really then to try and do things differently or to try and change our beliefs around that that we have to sacrifice ourselves in order at work in order to be worthy or 49:35.947 --> 49:36.167 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 49:36.567 --> 49:44.831 [SPEAKER_00]: This has been a fascinating conversation and I'm so grateful that you have shared some of your time with me and our listeners today. 49:44.851 --> 49:52.934 [SPEAKER_00]: And where can people find everything that you're doing, including your book when it comes out and your podcast? 49:53.434 --> 49:54.015 [SPEAKER_01]: So, I've got 49:54.815 --> 50:00.439 [SPEAKER_01]: YouTube channel called you don't have to abandon yourself to belong to the podcast is on there is on Spotify as well. 50:00.839 --> 50:02.941 [SPEAKER_01]: The book is in is in process. 50:03.021 --> 50:12.548 [SPEAKER_01]: I do sometimes write about the book right in process on my sub-stack and then I have my website which sort of has updates about the book and the podcast. 50:13.589 --> 50:15.150 [SPEAKER_01]: And then it was well. 50:15.990 --> 50:17.611 [SPEAKER_01]: Where can we find your website? 50:17.912 --> 50:18.872 [SPEAKER_01]: My website is 50:25.151 --> 50:28.707 [SPEAKER_00]: put a link to that in the show notes and 50:31.054 --> 50:35.837 [SPEAKER_00]: people can find your podcast and I'll put a link to your YouTube channel as well. 50:36.157 --> 50:38.998 [SPEAKER_00]: And then I post clips of the postcast on my Instagram. 50:39.519 --> 50:41.240 [SPEAKER_00]: It's been so lovely to talk to you. 50:41.300 --> 50:44.121 [SPEAKER_00]: I wish you much success with your writing process. 50:44.141 --> 50:47.123 [SPEAKER_00]: And I know this book is going to be really beautiful. 50:47.163 --> 50:51.805 [SPEAKER_00]: It sounds like it's coming together wonderfully already. 50:52.086 --> 50:54.967 [SPEAKER_00]: And I can't wait to see the finished product. 51:01.520 --> 51:08.106 [SPEAKER_01]: Lay back Manor in your curiosity and your related ability in willing this to share about your own process as well. 51:09.147 --> 51:09.747 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. 51:10.187 --> 51:10.848 [SPEAKER_00]: Likewise. 51:12.049 --> 51:17.954 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for listening to Therapy Chat with your host, Laura Regan, LCSWC. 51:19.055 --> 51:23.639 [SPEAKER_02]: For more information, please visit Therapy ChatPodcast.com