WEBVTT 00:09.193 --> 00:14.216 [SPEAKER_01]: What's up everyone, welcome back to the Crypto Mavericks podcast and we have a couple great guests here for you today. 00:14.336 --> 00:18.659 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm joined with Alexander Tasky, he's the founder and CEO of frame. 00:19.019 --> 00:32.547 [SPEAKER_01]: We also have Lloyd Moore who's the co-founder and CTO so we got the big hitters from frame and they help financial institutions move money across traditional payment rails, stable coins, tokenized deposits through one connected platform. 00:32.927 --> 00:34.808 [SPEAKER_01]: Today we'll be breakdown how it works. 00:35.208 --> 00:40.062 [SPEAKER_01]: what it can mean for the future of global payments, but overall we're just really happy to have them both on today. 00:41.566 --> 00:41.987 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks Brian. 00:42.007 --> 00:42.509 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for having us. 00:43.898 --> 00:44.698 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for joining us. 00:45.719 --> 00:48.240 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we're really excited to have you both on. 00:48.320 --> 00:50.321 [SPEAKER_01]: I know there's a lot going on in the crypto world. 00:50.401 --> 00:52.101 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there always is. 00:52.742 --> 00:59.344 [SPEAKER_01]: But I want to, I want to, before we dive into what you're doing with frame, and we were chopping it up a little bit before we hit record. 00:59.684 --> 01:02.225 [SPEAKER_01]: But I'd love to know a little bit about both your backgrounds. 01:02.906 --> 01:05.907 [SPEAKER_01]: While we start with Alex and Andrew, then we can kick it over to Lloyd. 01:07.419 --> 01:07.919 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, sure. 01:07.959 --> 01:15.883 [SPEAKER_00]: So I've been in payments for the last 20 years, plus now building payment orchestration platforms. 01:16.163 --> 01:22.986 [SPEAKER_00]: Great experience with whether it's card acquiring, your gateway, your ACHFTE, your card issuing programs, and 01:23.586 --> 01:41.725 [SPEAKER_00]: you know, call it your traditional orchestration, so I've seen all the use cases, I've looked at all the integrations, built all the different products that essentially come at us from customer demand, and I think my biggest curiosity is, you know, where the customer really needs something. 01:42.966 --> 01:46.489 [SPEAKER_00]: And that is, you know, where it's faster cheaper, more secure. 01:47.590 --> 01:56.615 [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel the journey that we're going on with frame is certainly an interesting one as, you know, you see tokenize the posits and stable coins really getting traction. 01:57.575 --> 01:59.956 [SPEAKER_00]: But in the middle, you know, how do people adopt it up? 02:00.477 --> 02:11.842 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's one of the reasons why we get birth to frame is because we want to help people go from your traffic that we all know very well to your blockchain rails, which is the cheaper faster, more secure. 02:12.903 --> 02:14.763 [SPEAKER_00]: So very excited about that and. 02:16.125 --> 02:17.749 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, yeah, happy to be here. 02:18.711 --> 02:19.833 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, so I'll go next. 02:20.114 --> 02:23.702 [SPEAKER_02]: And so yeah, I'm on the CTO and co-founder and 02:26.535 --> 02:44.645 [SPEAKER_02]: Over the past, I want to say 20 years, even though I reveal something about my age, I've been in, you know, different size projects and over time migrated closer towards, you know, more advanced stuff, including blockchain and also, you know, AI, which is what we use at the company as well. 02:45.545 --> 02:48.147 [SPEAKER_02]: And along that journey, I've realized that. 02:49.544 --> 03:01.151 [SPEAKER_02]: for institutions who are trying to wrestle with the changing legacy transactions into the kind of web three space. 03:01.692 --> 03:03.113 [SPEAKER_02]: There was this huge gap in the middle. 03:04.133 --> 03:06.775 [SPEAKER_02]: And today, stable coins and tokenized deposits. 03:07.155 --> 03:10.877 [SPEAKER_02]: And then tomorrow is it going to be CBDCs or what have you. 03:10.917 --> 03:11.118 [SPEAKER_02]: So, 03:12.719 --> 03:27.231 [SPEAKER_02]: As Alex and I said, you know, we've come together and we've built something that we hope we'll provide that cap across the old era into the new and provide that interoplayer for institutions everywhere globally. 03:28.652 --> 03:44.593 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think I just want to add one thing in there, Brian, because I think the reason why Lloyd and I work well together as a founder and co-founder is, you know, you have the technical brain and and kind of the commercial and visionary brain and both those come together just make it really amazing. 03:45.733 --> 03:54.778 [SPEAKER_00]: conversations, intellectual conversations, and really not only building a team with amazing values, you know, Lloyd had the pleasure of building Blocked Demon. 03:55.538 --> 04:03.142 [SPEAKER_00]: He's also a royal commando, special forces guy, so it's good to have someone have your back with, you know, someone with something like that. 04:04.202 --> 04:12.345 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think, you know, from it's it's the obsession that we both have on solving this and and we complement each other quite well. 04:12.425 --> 04:16.127 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's just something to add the good co-founders, right? 04:17.147 --> 04:27.311 [SPEAKER_01]: You never know when it's going to get crazy at a trip to a conference or somebody that's, you know, going to step out of line and I would like to have Lloyd to have my back as well, especially knowing he's background now. 04:27.671 --> 04:29.972 [SPEAKER_01]: Mike did a little mouthier if you had my back. 04:32.253 --> 04:38.336 [SPEAKER_01]: I would love to know, let's break it down for the audience because you're certainly filling the gap. 04:38.596 --> 04:39.777 [SPEAKER_01]: You set it perfectly. 04:39.917 --> 04:51.223 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think like the retail customer that's coming out to investigate or learn about crypto or invest in crypto, really understands just why it's so important. 04:51.343 --> 04:59.167 [SPEAKER_01]: For so, someone that's hearing about frame for the first time, it just can you put in simple terms, like what's the problem we're solving and why it's needed? 05:00.522 --> 05:02.925 [SPEAKER_00]: I think the biggest one is interoperability, right? 05:02.945 --> 05:09.271 [SPEAKER_00]: I think for the last, you know, 20, 25 years and payments with both of them and I, we haven't seen anybody solve that, right? 05:09.291 --> 05:23.965 [SPEAKER_00]: You have these isolated departments with, whether it's Swift and their membership or it's their ACH department or, you know, you have this kind of spaghetti chart, tradify platform put together, which makes sense because it came from the 70s. 05:25.486 --> 05:27.947 [SPEAKER_00]: and you know, goes, goes right to today. 05:28.567 --> 05:35.570 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, we certainly didn't have AI around in the 70s and we certainly didn't have the instant economy, right? 05:35.610 --> 05:43.973 [SPEAKER_00]: I think Uber really made that, you know, a large imprint and that instant economy, you know, deal with my kids these days. 05:43.993 --> 05:48.434 [SPEAKER_00]: They want everything right now, quickly fast, and you have to teach people patients, 05:51.556 --> 06:17.636 [SPEAKER_00]: But when you think cheaper, faster, more secure and the way that technology moves, I think this is a very important way that we should make money move the same way that technology moves fast, cheap, international, and I think with the right level of compliance, because I think it's one thing going from taking in a swift payment, but it's another thing turning 06:19.878 --> 06:31.845 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's what banks really want to upgrade their banking system when you go from your traditional deposit that runs on basic office hours and, you know, weekdays and settlement windows. 06:32.405 --> 06:40.009 [SPEAKER_00]: And then you take a tokenized deposit, which can run 24, 7, 360, 5 and has a lot more great parameters in characteristics, right? 06:40.089 --> 06:43.231 [SPEAKER_00]: So now when that bank wants to move out of tokenized 06:48.834 --> 06:50.855 [SPEAKER_00]: you know, that's what really our platform allows. 06:51.115 --> 06:54.356 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's the biggest problem that we're solving is interoperability. 06:55.577 --> 07:02.299 [SPEAKER_00]: I think the other one is really, you know, although we're not built as a compliance is built in a transaction. 07:02.399 --> 07:04.320 [SPEAKER_00]: We're not a compliance company. 07:04.380 --> 07:08.702 [SPEAKER_00]: We kind of looked at that as building compliance in the settlement itself. 07:09.843 --> 07:15.290 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think before settlement occurs, it has all the compliance built-in. 07:15.370 --> 07:19.695 [SPEAKER_00]: So it gets released or not released, it doesn't happen before and it doesn't happen after it happens at the time. 07:20.637 --> 07:26.504 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's a very special system, like just imagine with all the CFOs or listeners or treasurers or 07:27.245 --> 07:30.387 [SPEAKER_00]: you know, even heads of payments of all your platforms. 07:30.447 --> 07:44.335 [SPEAKER_00]: I've designed systems like this and they're all very different, but if you can see one plane of glass with your Swift, your ACH, your RTP, your Chaps, all in one plane of glass, and then be able to move it on to digital rails back and forth. 07:44.375 --> 07:51.700 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a serious advantage as a fintech, as an exchange, as a bank, and that's who we really enable. 07:52.979 --> 08:06.788 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean payments are certainly becoming more complicated as banks are using the traditional payment rails, like you said that were developed in the 70s and now we have stable coins and tokenized deposits, all happening kind of at the same time. 08:07.549 --> 08:14.053 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you give us a simple example of a payment that is difficult today that would be a lot easier utilizing frame? 08:14.734 --> 08:15.854 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, do you want to take that man? 08:22.935 --> 08:27.076 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, just trying to pick the the easiest one to explain. 08:27.836 --> 08:49.043 [SPEAKER_02]: So a lot of settlements right now they're not really programmable either by the user or even the institutions that serve those same customers and sometimes you want to conditionally make a payment on a particular rail depending on who the customer is or the time of day or the amount of the actual payment 08:50.103 --> 08:56.267 [SPEAKER_02]: And then maybe you want to make the same payment, but you want to maybe split it into two legs or three legs. 08:57.227 --> 09:07.233 [SPEAKER_02]: And so, an interesting news case that we deal with today is where, you know, somebody, you know, has, you know, a vast amount of stable coins. 09:08.019 --> 09:25.685 [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, as a stable coin, you've got liquidity that's potentially able to sit on on the bank's books, and so there's an interesting use case where those stable coins can be automatically converted and a percentage set placed on on on the bank's ledger. 09:26.566 --> 09:33.068 [SPEAKER_02]: And then let's say there's an off-hours, you know, payment that needs to be made and it's not known ahead of time, but the system detects it. 09:34.195 --> 09:44.683 [SPEAKER_02]: what we can do now is have the ability to maybe send, you know, before, you know, five o'clock, a fed wire, after five o'clock, it can be a stable coin payment. 09:45.284 --> 09:49.447 [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, if you can imagine being able to program that in rules that you, 09:50.800 --> 09:54.543 [SPEAKER_02]: cryptographically have sealed and attested at the time of settlement. 09:55.263 --> 10:06.711 [SPEAKER_02]: That's the kind of flows that people may not think about doing, but as soon as they realize that that capabilities in the hands, then they come up with a whole plethora of others, which is something that we can attest to. 10:07.850 --> 10:22.276 [SPEAKER_01]: So I guess time certainly is a factor you said because the bank hours of nine to five, but how does frame decide whether our payments should use a traditional bank rail, a stable coin, a tokenized deposit, or I suppose even a combination of all of them? 10:23.076 --> 10:26.898 [SPEAKER_02]: Yep, just really simply we have a rules engine where 10:28.614 --> 10:36.146 [SPEAKER_02]: the bank or the customer can decide on those different conditions that suit the customer themselves basically. 10:37.327 --> 10:43.216 [SPEAKER_00]: I think the rules engine also is very important because we don't see the rules, it's their IP. 10:43.837 --> 11:10.708 [SPEAKER_00]: They put the rules into the engine and the nitro and clay over the trusted transaction environment reads those rules and is able to determine what's best there, whether it's a split payment, whether it's taken it in from stablecoin, putting it to tokenize the deposits, all banks want to recognize that deposit because it's more valuable on the balance sheet for leverage ratios, et cetera versus actually having it at stablecoin, which they cannot leverage in some instances. 11:11.809 --> 11:30.451 [SPEAKER_00]: But essentially, I think there's a, it's the rules engine and some banks have 10,000 policies, amount jurisdiction, currency, and you know, I think another key component there is we have a single planet glass that you can press a button and stop everything. 11:31.152 --> 11:45.569 [SPEAKER_00]: So when actually you're connected to a swift to a linear example or a salana or any of the networks that are out there, you know, what happens now phone calls for four hours, I'm trying to stop a payment and things like that. 11:46.070 --> 12:07.232 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, the compliance officer or the regulator kind of loves this technology because they can log on as a demand press one button shut everything down if that was a mistake or it has to be restricted or you know Trump decides and you know that it's okay to do business in that corridor again, then you can go in, you know, press it and it turns on again. 12:08.212 --> 12:15.595 [SPEAKER_00]: So, I think, you know, from a compliance, you know, you usually get to these two stakeholders that aren't possible to deal with, right? 12:15.695 --> 12:19.796 [SPEAKER_00]: The Grumpy Compliance Officer that doesn't like you very much, and neither does his friends. 12:20.676 --> 12:27.499 [SPEAKER_00]: And the commercial architect that actually designed the whole entire system himself, thinking that, you know, 12:31.389 --> 12:33.690 [SPEAKER_00]: So how can you please these stakeholders, right? 12:34.170 --> 12:36.890 [SPEAKER_00]: So the rules engine and the plane of glass really solves that. 12:37.551 --> 12:44.112 [SPEAKER_00]: And architecture, which is interesting, we have a single API, very stripe-like, and to grade. 12:44.432 --> 12:49.373 [SPEAKER_00]: We have a two-day onboarding, which is not six weeks or six months for things like that. 12:50.154 --> 12:55.135 [SPEAKER_00]: And we literally overlay with your existing track file and open up. 12:56.235 --> 12:58.536 [SPEAKER_00]: the digital asset rails for you. 12:59.096 --> 13:08.699 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's important to note because when we get into these conversations, you see the engineers roll their eyes on this going to take six weeks, so we don't have any resources. 13:09.059 --> 13:11.360 [SPEAKER_00]: This is like a constant problem in our space, right? 13:11.400 --> 13:20.263 [SPEAKER_00]: So Lloyd had thought it out from print the first principle, and it just makes easier to work with us and easier to try it out. 13:20.343 --> 13:23.804 [SPEAKER_00]: And do your penny tests, go in your sandbox, play around it, 13:26.245 --> 13:30.470 [SPEAKER_00]: But I'll just add one more point is, you know, I think the world is based on ledgers. 13:30.990 --> 13:32.331 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a lot of ledgers everywhere. 13:32.832 --> 13:45.064 [SPEAKER_00]: And you're moving money from one ledger to another, especially when you're dealing with an international bank that let's say is based into the York and as operations in London and Singapore, you're basically moving money around the ledgers. 13:45.704 --> 13:45.945 [SPEAKER_00]: Right? 13:46.005 --> 13:47.887 [SPEAKER_00]: So we have cryptographic proof. 13:48.467 --> 13:54.235 [SPEAKER_00]: that shows you that that ledger entry has occurred and therefore giving that settlement finale. 13:54.295 --> 13:57.299 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think those are, I mean, that all goes back to the rules engine. 13:57.339 --> 14:03.248 [SPEAKER_00]: I think to the question earlier, but you know, there was a very deep thought on how we how we built this thing. 14:04.952 --> 14:05.352 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that. 14:05.673 --> 14:09.676 [SPEAKER_01]: Quicker faster, easier, more transparent, more secure. 14:09.956 --> 14:16.482 [SPEAKER_01]: It's what we all want and a lot of different aspects and sectors of our life, not just the financial layer. 14:18.203 --> 14:22.386 [SPEAKER_01]: By no means am I an expert here, but this just when you both were talking. 14:22.426 --> 14:25.529 [SPEAKER_01]: So what happens if one payment succeeds? 14:26.310 --> 14:28.612 [SPEAKER_01]: But then another part's delayed or rejected. 14:29.512 --> 14:30.433 [SPEAKER_01]: How's that handled? 14:30.493 --> 14:32.355 [SPEAKER_01]: Is that just set in the rules already? 14:33.251 --> 14:36.093 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so it's decided on two different layers. 14:36.613 --> 14:40.615 [SPEAKER_02]: One is in the configuration within the rules and general the policy engine. 14:41.335 --> 14:46.038 [SPEAKER_02]: And then the other one is baked into the invariance in the actual architecture. 14:46.973 --> 15:03.766 [SPEAKER_02]: We use a lot of techniques to make sure that mechanistically, you know, code can't fail using things like finite state machines, VLPR, which we kind of stole from Tiger Beetle who stole from Foundation DB. 15:04.547 --> 15:20.956 [SPEAKER_02]: and so we have all these you know these bells, checks and whistles within the actual code itself and within the the way that we define these kind of you know different state machines to guarantee that for example if there are you know two legs and one of them is slow than the other 15:21.756 --> 15:41.948 [SPEAKER_02]: Then quite simply we make sure that the slowest one is satisfied before the next one is triggered and things like that and there's a bunch of rules like that too to make sure that you know and we've got it and we've exhausted all the different different paths that can be taken different configurations of legs and you know furthermore we run these nightly builds where. 15:43.147 --> 15:51.495 [SPEAKER_02]: the same as maybe five years of production use is kind of tested overnight with these different seed data, kind of, tests. 15:53.558 --> 15:59.684 [SPEAKER_01]: So tokenized deposits may be issued by different banks using different systems. 16:00.084 --> 16:02.787 [SPEAKER_01]: How's frame allow all of those systems work together? 16:02.807 --> 16:03.768 [SPEAKER_01]: How'd you come up with that? 16:05.175 --> 16:28.502 [SPEAKER_02]: So, if you, as opposed to the best way to explain this is, if you think of the different types of payments, whether it's a fed wire or a swift or, you know, tokenize the positive, if it's a, you know, it's all conservatives or some others, they are all essentially a mess, like a message format. 16:29.502 --> 16:33.323 [SPEAKER_02]: And at a high level, what we do is, you know, Alexander said, 16:35.013 --> 17:00.161 [SPEAKER_02]: ledges are, you know, one ledger is debited the other one is credited and what we do in between is make sure that, you know, in a provable way that we can first map and understand the shape of the tokenized deposit, for example, you know, a city tokenized deposit is a XML sick pain.002, whatever that format is, then, you know, coming over to the fear side of things, we've got an 17:05.190 --> 17:14.630 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, data models, data structures, and so our system understands all these different types, and then is able to map one to the other and allow. 17:15.636 --> 17:19.259 [SPEAKER_02]: disparate parts of the system to be able to communicate from one side to another. 17:19.939 --> 17:20.399 [SPEAKER_01]: Amazing. 17:20.820 --> 17:25.143 [SPEAKER_01]: And then we, so Swift, let's get into Swift's blockchain base ledger. 17:25.643 --> 17:27.604 [SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like it's ready for initial use. 17:27.905 --> 17:33.869 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think I read that it was about 17-baked preparing to pilot the live tokenized deposit transactions. 17:34.609 --> 17:42.235 [SPEAKER_01]: Love to know how does that announcement validates frames thesis or could Swift eventually solve the orchestration problem itself? 17:43.325 --> 17:49.610 [SPEAKER_01]: Do I take that one first, but I would love to take that one out of the end. 17:49.630 --> 17:58.936 [SPEAKER_02]: So, Swift has tried different projects over the years and to be fair to Swift. 17:59.036 --> 18:06.241 [SPEAKER_02]: They are a very large ecosystem and somebody like Pray obviously a lot smaller. 18:07.682 --> 18:11.024 [SPEAKER_02]: More modern is going to be able to move a lot quicker. 18:12.326 --> 18:22.720 [SPEAKER_02]: The recent announcement, if you break that down, it took about 9.5, 10 months to go from 0 to get to that point. 18:23.502 --> 18:23.602 [SPEAKER_02]: And 18:25.440 --> 18:28.001 [SPEAKER_02]: It's worth digging into what that announcement means. 18:28.501 --> 18:33.523 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, they have a tokenized system that's ready to go. 18:34.724 --> 18:41.927 [SPEAKER_02]: But if you ask people that maybe understand that even even more than ourselves, they will tell you that 18:43.730 --> 18:47.513 [SPEAKER_02]: for that system to be usable in production so to speak. 18:48.493 --> 18:50.815 [SPEAKER_02]: Probably looking at another couple of years if not more. 18:51.155 --> 19:00.461 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, I am not, you know, I can't see into the future, but just based on different conversations with industry experts, that's the indication. 19:00.981 --> 19:09.427 [SPEAKER_02]: But it's great that Swifted, you know, eventually, you know, made some progress towards the very thing that, you know, frame is building today as well. 19:12.829 --> 19:19.774 [SPEAKER_02]: as validation that, you know, somebody like Swift understands that, you know, you need something like free. 19:21.355 --> 19:40.008 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and just to add that, you know, I think the validation is right because as soon as the announcement came up, you know, people inquired, sent like didn't messages, what's going on with this, and we kind of calmly looked at it, and smiled because it is validation to exactly what frame is doing. 19:40.648 --> 20:03.942 [SPEAKER_00]: So that is a massive win for us and you know for all the listeners out there that have done deals with banks like it doesn't happen in you know six weeks like you luckily get all the stakeholders on and then there's August and then there's December and then there's black old periods and you actually get the testing and you know people change their jobs and things like like times that by 13 20:05.583 --> 20:09.789 [SPEAKER_00]: And there you have something that Lloyd referred to as a couple years out. 20:10.429 --> 20:14.575 [SPEAKER_00]: I do think that, you know, they're still using the Swift network to settle. 20:15.275 --> 20:20.902 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's almost a bandaid on top of the, you know, the old system, which doesn't really solve it. 20:22.664 --> 20:39.455 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think we heard this from one of our customers, excuse me, last week, is that, you know, with this cryptographic messaging kind of proof of settlement system that we've created, you know, it's not like we need a network effect to happen, right, for frames. 20:39.956 --> 20:45.860 [SPEAKER_00]: Someone can actually use it internally as a private ledger and, you know, a private chain that 20:46.580 --> 20:53.329 [SPEAKER_00]: you know hides the hides all the confidential data but routes back to a public chain to say that it's actually happened. 20:54.070 --> 21:03.161 [SPEAKER_00]: But when two parties actually use this system, it essentially replaces, you know, that five letter words starting with S and ending in. 21:03.802 --> 21:04.543 [SPEAKER_00]: T, right? 21:04.623 --> 21:08.767 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, we love what they've done and we've recognized what they've done. 21:09.208 --> 21:18.177 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just really hard to innovate something that's so big and, you know, you know, the 17 banks or 15 banks or whatever that have joined this. 21:19.578 --> 21:20.439 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just swift. 21:20.579 --> 21:21.679 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, how about ACH? 21:22.179 --> 21:23.120 [SPEAKER_00]: How about RTP? 21:23.480 --> 21:32.363 [SPEAKER_00]: How about, you know, open, you know, all the new stable coins, USTC, everything that's in there. 21:32.643 --> 21:34.724 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, these are networks that are coming out. 21:35.324 --> 21:35.504 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 21:35.544 --> 21:48.230 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think one thing that people come out with this network and you know whether it's a a finale is an example like you have to rip out your system or and put their Zen and banks just don't want to do that. 21:48.550 --> 21:48.810 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 21:48.910 --> 21:55.393 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think it does take time to implement that and you know you're five years out. 21:55.413 --> 21:56.754 [SPEAKER_00]: We're talking about the same thing. 21:56.834 --> 21:59.415 [SPEAKER_00]: I you know I remember ripping it a big announcement with them 22:04.557 --> 22:28.999 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of intel kind of from their studies and stuff like that and you know again kudos for trying that out But I think what what frame does is Want to allow those to be able to talk to each other in a more secure manner, but you don't need both to talk to each other and you know There's 11,500 FIs on the Swift network like we're talking 15 16 banks here which are you know the main ones. 22:29.199 --> 22:29.499 [SPEAKER_00]: I get it 22:30.500 --> 22:37.482 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, but how about the other, you know, 11,000, um, you know, 480 banks, right? 22:37.522 --> 22:40.724 [SPEAKER_00]: Like that, that is, um, what are they going to do, right? 22:40.784 --> 22:46.185 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think, um, that's why we're so intrigued and it's not easy to create a system that we've done. 22:46.205 --> 22:53.528 [SPEAKER_00]: We've been at this secretly for many years, um, but now it's really time to be vocal about it and time to solve that problem because I think, 22:55.589 --> 23:00.850 [SPEAKER_00]: When that is actually quite scalable, it's something magical, it's like watching a movie. 23:03.031 --> 23:08.293 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's actually, I really appreciate the clarification, that makes a ton of sense. 23:08.993 --> 23:17.216 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess what type of customer or payment use case do you believe will adopt frame first or you're looking to adopt frame first? 23:18.317 --> 23:36.147 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so a couple of ICPs, you know, obviously the strongest one being banks, you know, and we understand, you need singles double striples and your grand slimes kind of from sales and pipeline perspective, but I think banks are the ones that need to innovate quickly for tokenized deposits. 23:36.247 --> 23:42.931 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a need to interrupt, take all the payments in, and turn them into tokenized deposits and be, you know, always on or 24, 7, 23:45.592 --> 23:46.692 [SPEAKER_00]: dodging to that economy. 23:46.732 --> 23:49.613 [SPEAKER_00]: So bank banks is almost a strong one. 23:50.413 --> 24:08.757 [SPEAKER_00]: The second one being exchanges, you know, one of the biggest stats I think that we have and, you know, I'll let boy talk more on this, but, you know, we see layer zero with the ice and the stock exchange is and things like that and they're able to do a million transactions per second. 24:09.297 --> 24:09.377 [SPEAKER_00]: Our 24:15.638 --> 24:39.947 [SPEAKER_00]: And that allows any exchange really, and again, to their point earlier of taking those, you know, zero knowledge proofs or confidential information about the trade, et cetera, but knowing that it's happened, we have the ability to do that and whether it's the New York Stock Exchange or whether it's the DAX or, you know, the TSX or whatever it happens to be, you know, we're able to be that mesh layer in between them, so I think, 24:40.407 --> 24:47.490 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, and I don't know, Lloyd, if you want to talk about those stats or or quickly, but I'll talk about the other ICPs, because I know that's a big, that does a big stat. 24:48.790 --> 25:02.455 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so the, the driver for the, the other primitive or rather the other kind of invariant that wasn't originally speed, but after speaking with, you know, people related to the DTCC project. 25:03.431 --> 25:12.555 [SPEAKER_02]: we realized that there was going to be an increased need and being able to do things at high speed and still securely as well. 25:13.136 --> 25:26.942 [SPEAKER_02]: So we spent a lot of time designing what that would look like and one of the most important things was that it just couldn't fail when I was at Block Demon and we were running hundreds of thousands of nodes and doing validators. 25:27.362 --> 25:29.844 [SPEAKER_02]: One of the things I learned there was the price of failure. 25:30.804 --> 25:55.209 [SPEAKER_02]: luckily for me we didn't suffer that but I took that same kind of ethos and poured that into what is now today frame and so yep it sounds like a like a tall yarn but we have the speed we have this security and yep we're looking forward to more people onboard in over the weeks and months. 25:56.632 --> 25:58.394 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's naturally the exchange piece. 25:58.414 --> 26:01.798 [SPEAKER_00]: So one you hire high volume for banks, you hire the exchange is. 26:02.719 --> 26:06.623 [SPEAKER_00]: But then also you look at your traditional fintech, right? 26:06.643 --> 26:07.644 [SPEAKER_00]: That's looking to innovate. 26:08.105 --> 26:11.709 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, you can white label us, or completely white label platform. 26:12.809 --> 26:19.910 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's a quick API two day onboarding and you have the ability to take from trackify overlapping your existing routes. 26:19.930 --> 26:26.311 [SPEAKER_00]: You do two billion of SEPA, you already have a system set up, no worries, we're just kind of an add on to that. 26:27.372 --> 26:37.453 [SPEAKER_00]: And then kind of lastly, what we're seeing in, and you know, some of the large use cases and, you know, a large beverage brand, for example, the large insurance companies that 26:41.678 --> 26:47.442 [SPEAKER_00]: And need denetting function, which only, you know, the very very large corporations can get. 26:47.462 --> 26:59.390 [SPEAKER_00]: So you go and notch down with that, and the netting function, three parties, or each other, you know, 100 million, you need to line the credits, you need a nostril buster account, so the netting function, like eliminates that, and just spits out with the differences. 26:59.831 --> 27:02.072 [SPEAKER_00]: So we've kind of built that into the primitives as well. 27:02.132 --> 27:06.595 [SPEAKER_00]: So that means that the large corporates in the middle market can also use it. 27:06.956 --> 27:08.277 [SPEAKER_00]: So we have our banks, 27:08.957 --> 27:28.275 [SPEAKER_00]: Our exchanges, our fintechs, our mid-market, large, and also we find that processors of the merchant acquires because they're also looking for that instant settlement, whether it's 24-7, and processors are also surprisingly an ICP and a use case. 27:30.145 --> 27:36.770 [SPEAKER_01]: Amazing and I know you said earlier, I think it was Lloyd who said earlier that you're utilizing AI technology. 27:36.910 --> 27:49.639 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just because of the pure curiosity because over the past one year or two, you know, AI has been such a buzzword, but then we're starting to see how AI is just moving into our everyday life as founders and builders. 27:49.719 --> 27:54.202 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just curious how you're utilizing AI and kind of where you're seeing that going in the future. 27:55.559 --> 28:10.645 [SPEAKER_02]: So in a couple of ways, and some of them will not be a surprise and others will, what we've realized early on is that if we are unable to harness that pot intended AI, then what we're going to be behind. 28:11.145 --> 28:17.147 [SPEAKER_02]: And so we have an engerent team that is solely focused on building the harness for any 28:21.425 --> 28:48.978 [SPEAKER_02]: We've also poured AI into all facets of the organization and we're moving away from the traditional sales force, ESC tools and moving more towards things where AI can use MCP or even direct API connections into these different tools that do the same thing that exists today but in a way that agent use cases can really accelerate 28:51.239 --> 29:14.068 [SPEAKER_02]: The other one as well is that we're recognizing that we're moving to a world where the agentic era of payments is a real thing and the problem that we've solved with the platform there is the marriage of non-deterministic, agentic functions with deterministic rules around who and who cannot make this payment. 29:15.272 --> 29:27.580 [SPEAKER_02]: and indirectly from that, we've solved the problem where a lot of people working on the same thing have decided that they need to solve the last thing, which is how do I identify an agent? 29:28.100 --> 29:35.505 [SPEAKER_02]: And we've taken a different approach and we're working with somebody to do the first product for them, where 29:36.768 --> 29:42.012 [SPEAKER_02]: rather than identify who the agent is, enforceably prove what it is that they can do. 29:42.732 --> 30:03.025 [SPEAKER_02]: And so using the frame platform, we've got that amount of non-autumnistic AI-agentic flows with the enforceability around using frame platform to make sure that only set agent with these particular properties in terms of rights can make that payment or do that transaction so that's something quite interesting 30:05.848 --> 30:09.191 [SPEAKER_02]: that we're not even rolling out what we're looking to expand. 30:10.012 --> 30:28.991 [SPEAKER_00]: And that use case is interesting because it's someone that controls 20 million merchants worldwide, a large percentage of the internet, and is looking for that agent to agent commerce, but doesn't have that like rural engine and compliance, and also needs that finality of settlement, but has everything else. 30:29.803 --> 30:31.546 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's just interesting to build. 30:32.928 --> 30:36.994 [SPEAKER_00]: I would just add from an AI perspective, I mean, kind of leading the organization. 30:37.014 --> 30:44.284 [SPEAKER_00]: You look at all the functions, whether it's having live PNLs, your operations being more real-time. 30:45.265 --> 30:53.009 [SPEAKER_00]: even frankly, business plans being built, one thing that we build is called the frame brain, which has our institutional knowledge in ours. 30:53.729 --> 31:07.235 [SPEAKER_00]: And for example, if a whether it's a UBS or a PSP or a New York Stock Exchange comes to us, we can simply say, how does frame and the New York 31:10.576 --> 31:31.084 [SPEAKER_00]: It actually runs all of our products, all of our services, all of the angles, all of our learnings from all of our previous use cases and spits out a document that has a overview of frame and, you know, prospect and it has all this strategic angles, it has how, you know, we're going to, you know, generate revenue for them. 31:31.644 --> 31:40.631 [SPEAKER_00]: and for us and all the kind of like what you would do what would take a pre sails person maybe three days to put together in a manual setting. 31:40.671 --> 31:41.932 [SPEAKER_00]: It's done in the click of a button. 31:42.492 --> 31:57.023 [SPEAKER_00]: And of course it requires you know experts to look at it and refine it and you know sometimes it's more poetic as we all kind of see through you know some of the languages but you know can you simplify that put some graphics behind it. 31:57.623 --> 31:59.864 [SPEAKER_00]: 30 minutes, it's done and dusted, right? 32:00.364 --> 32:08.509 [SPEAKER_00]: And we can jump on that sales call with that prospect and say, here how it shockingly aligns with your organization, right? 32:09.029 --> 32:12.371 [SPEAKER_00]: And then obviously we ask for the customer feedback, like is this right? 32:12.871 --> 32:18.934 [SPEAKER_00]: Are these six angles that we came up with and how frame and X-Bank and work together? 32:19.514 --> 32:22.936 [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe there's six initiatives, but three of them are more important than the other three. 32:23.016 --> 32:25.978 [SPEAKER_00]: So we make adjustments based on customer feedback, 32:26.889 --> 32:36.012 [SPEAKER_00]: And it really is a map for business development, for marketing, but most importantly, understanding what the customer wants. 32:36.052 --> 32:43.275 [SPEAKER_00]: We didn't have the ability to take white papers, five white papers that were written by a UBS, for example. 32:43.975 --> 33:00.840 [SPEAKER_00]: basically put that into a cloud or a chatjbt or whatever you're using and it outputs like your angles right away like that, that you know, I would read all the white papers but it would take days and you'd have to really soak them and you know sit on your PowerPoint deck and and put all that together. 33:00.900 --> 33:00.960 [SPEAKER_00]: And 33:01.700 --> 33:03.221 [SPEAKER_00]: those days are gone, right? 33:03.281 --> 33:10.403 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, it's one thing moving fast in building product and building code, but it's another thing making an organization run fast. 33:11.143 --> 33:17.066 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't even hire people that are not AI, they don't have AI literacy, right? 33:17.926 --> 33:23.508 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's very important because there's those old school people that have like great relationships and are very good at what they do. 33:24.208 --> 33:40.497 [SPEAKER_00]: But quickly in a week or two, you can see if they use AI or not, where AI is being used and, you know, based on the feedback that they give me as it kind of a CEO, I can quickly look at it and give everybody feedback, you know, all the direct reports and things like that. 33:40.557 --> 33:42.698 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's changing in a lot of ways. 33:43.930 --> 33:46.792 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I sure has been changing in law ways. 33:46.892 --> 33:54.438 [SPEAKER_01]: Your business, my business, from just a business standpoint, from a personal business standpoint, you bring up the white paper example. 33:54.458 --> 34:06.966 [SPEAKER_01]: I remember like 2017, 2018, and I was like really getting into deep reading those white papers and like half understanding what they were and then getting on the internet and like, what's this word mean? 34:07.047 --> 34:09.748 [SPEAKER_01]: Or, you know, trying to figure out this white paper. 34:09.768 --> 34:11.410 [SPEAKER_01]: And I felt dumb. 34:12.350 --> 34:28.623 [SPEAKER_01]: Because it's you know, it was some technical things going on in there, but now you can just like you said you could just a copy paste put in there and you get this very elegant breakdown and if you still don't understand it, you can literally make it simpler and it just really puts it puts it together. 34:29.364 --> 34:34.228 [SPEAKER_01]: Amazing stuff and it obviously seems like you're both brilliant you're on the cutting edge. 34:34.768 --> 34:52.391 [SPEAKER_01]: I would love to know, kind of my last question is, five years from now, what role do you think frame could play in the global payments with traditional bank deposits, stable coins, tokenized deposits, as they all more likely in five years if they still coexist in some way, but which frames role are going to be? 34:54.682 --> 34:59.704 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's the intersection of all those payments together. 34:59.884 --> 35:12.290 [SPEAKER_00]: It's the mesh, it's the interoperability solven, you know, I want to be proud to say that we would be the first ones to solve it across all payment types, like that's exciting, like as geeky as that sounds, it's super exciting to solve that. 35:13.190 --> 35:25.577 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I do think that, you know, building orchestration for for 20 years, um, it's kind of, I don't see one transaction at a time, but it's that one moment where that person decides, like I'm not going to send a swift. 35:26.438 --> 35:34.683 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to try an instant payment, which is, you know, what a stable coin transfer or tokenized, you know, deposit transfer or whatever it is. 35:35.143 --> 35:36.924 [SPEAKER_00]: And they realize it's faster cheaper, better. 35:37.484 --> 35:39.225 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think like over the next five years, 35:42.587 --> 35:48.113 [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to certainly see people figuring out how to move that Tradify to that. 35:48.133 --> 35:49.655 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think there's a lot of education. 35:49.715 --> 35:53.078 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of hard work in front of us, and we just have to stay persistent enough. 35:54.360 --> 36:04.750 [SPEAKER_00]: And hopefully we don't have crazy breaches on these block chains or anything like that, which always scares the laymen, but in reality, there's more chains that are better than others. 36:04.770 --> 36:05.171 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think 36:06.172 --> 36:13.538 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, a long story short, I think we'll see more on Jane, and I think frame will be the highway that gets them there. 36:14.840 --> 36:23.908 [SPEAKER_02]: I just want to add one more thing to the, I don't know if it's going to be in five years or seven or three, but I look forward to the day when somebody says, let me send you a frame. 36:24.899 --> 36:26.599 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's lean too. 36:26.639 --> 36:30.240 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a good, it's just a good term for some reason. 36:30.440 --> 36:32.321 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll start using it for you guys. 36:32.621 --> 36:33.921 [SPEAKER_01]: Let me send you a frame, mate. 36:34.481 --> 36:38.922 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think the basis of it, you know, you're in a frame right now, right? 36:39.002 --> 36:41.403 [SPEAKER_00]: You're in a phone, listening to the podcast. 36:41.903 --> 36:46.924 [SPEAKER_00]: You're in a frame in a team, or, you know, a zoom or a Google, or whatever you use. 36:47.464 --> 37:03.382 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you look through frames and your glasses, so it's very hard to forget our brand, and sometimes it's funny when people frame a conversation like, or are going to frame an idea like that, you know, there's a lot of depth in that, and the frame is really meant to keep everything secure as well. 37:04.423 --> 37:09.924 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, you can't go outside to trust the transaction environment because it's built in a very solid frame. 37:10.824 --> 37:13.665 [SPEAKER_00]: We even thought in some of our branding, like, what's the strongest framing? 37:13.725 --> 37:15.045 [SPEAKER_00]: Is it carbon fiber? 37:15.105 --> 37:15.925 [SPEAKER_00]: Is it steel? 37:15.985 --> 37:18.866 [SPEAKER_00]: Is it steel and carbon fiber or part of the cement? 37:19.446 --> 37:26.107 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, so it means a lot and it should resonate with all the listeners. 37:26.547 --> 37:29.548 [SPEAKER_00]: And they will remember when they jump on a frame on the next call. 37:31.566 --> 37:35.369 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to remember, I'll tell you that much, that's very slick. 37:35.629 --> 37:39.271 [SPEAKER_01]: I really enjoy that and I enjoy this conversation a lot. 37:39.791 --> 37:49.317 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to give everybody an opportunity if they want to learn more about both of you or specifically if they want to learn more about frame and be more involved, what's the best way to reach out or get connected? 37:49.998 --> 37:51.700 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, check out Frane.xyz. 37:52.360 --> 37:54.723 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the best way to learn about it. 37:55.744 --> 37:57.766 [SPEAKER_00]: Go through all the tabs on the side, reach out. 37:58.247 --> 38:00.409 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, Lloyd and I are available in LinkedIn. 38:00.449 --> 38:03.172 [SPEAKER_00]: You can always DM us or things like that. 38:03.292 --> 38:06.915 [SPEAKER_00]: We have some great strategy options. 38:06.956 --> 38:09.038 [SPEAKER_00]: That came from circle that runs in North American. 38:09.940 --> 38:17.845 [SPEAKER_00]: and kind of division and Louise and Murray that came on from equals than selling orchestration for the last eight years. 38:17.865 --> 38:21.908 [SPEAKER_00]: So we work as a team, and I think the team effort is really the best way to go. 38:22.988 --> 38:23.529 [SPEAKER_01]: Amazing. 38:23.689 --> 38:26.551 [SPEAKER_01]: And I appreciate you jumping on the podcast and for the audience. 38:26.631 --> 38:28.232 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna put all those links down below. 38:28.332 --> 38:29.833 [SPEAKER_01]: So I highly encourage you. 38:29.913 --> 38:30.953 [SPEAKER_01]: This is interesting to you. 38:30.993 --> 38:34.236 [SPEAKER_01]: You got to check it out frame XYZ when you put the links down below. 38:34.736 --> 38:37.458 [SPEAKER_01]: Alexander Lloyd really appreciate you jumping on today. 38:38.398 --> 38:38.939 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for having us.