[SPEAKER_00]: Tim Curry.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like dolly and Tim in one in like a 24 hours day in 24 period.
[SPEAKER_01]: Fucking brutal.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is really, and there's been, you know, I've, it's just, there's been a lot of, it's wild.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really wild.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's those, those people, I, you know,
[SPEAKER_00]: it just feels like the world just has less amazing people in it and I know there's going to be more amazing people and people like I'm here with my friends kid is here staying with us while we're in Edinburgh and she's like a really cool kid and so I'm like okay encouraged by the possibility that you know there are still you know it but just like
[UNKNOWN]: Don't leave me, leave me, leave me, leave me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I'm telling you, um, a story from my life that you're going to be like, what?
[SPEAKER_01]: I went to Connecticut this weekend with the kids and visited a friend and we stayed at their place, which was so cute near the water.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was a kind of vibe where, uh, like having bit obsessed with widows bay, it was like a little new England town on the water with all these islands off the coast called the Fimble Islands.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was so cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they have a little boat.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the town as cutest could be, they're in a little residential neighborhood that feels very, everyone's walking around barefoot.
[SPEAKER_01]: The kids are riding their bikes up and down the street.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of in a, you know, dead ends at the water.
[SPEAKER_01]: And one day we were sitting out by the water, just, you know, half a block from the house, and this car screeched around the corner.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like,
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, what?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because no one's going more than like eight miles an hour in that area.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the kids are on bikes and scooters in the road constantly.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was this really scared feeling of who's being so unsafe.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's going on?
[SPEAKER_01]: Our babies, oh my god.
[SPEAKER_01]: So
[SPEAKER_01]: my friend who's house it was stood up like pissed to go over and talk to the car which had stopped.
[SPEAKER_01]: It had screeched around the corner and weirdly stopped and the person driving it was behaving like they were driving a stick shift even though it was clearly an automatic, which is to say the car was like starting and stopping in a really erratic way.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she runs over to say, like, what the hell?
[SPEAKER_01]: Float down.
[SPEAKER_01]: And notice is right away that the driver is wearing a mask.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so she's like, what?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then looks the other people in the car appear to be very, very young teenagers.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as she is starting to process this and being like getting like basically starting to be like, hey, you can't drive this way.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's kids in the road.
[SPEAKER_01]: Another car does the same thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It reaches around the corner behind them, like making, you know, tire whistling noises, and also start like driving completely erratically.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like her brain and my brain are trying to take this in, like, what the fuck is going on?
[SPEAKER_01]: We turn, and she goes, hey, and she goes to yell at them, and then she goes, hey, hey, that's my car!
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and it was another teenager in the driver seat who gave her like a shrug and then they peeled off around the corner.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we call the police immediately and we run up to the house because we're like, is the like the house is unlocked, the cars are unlocked,
[SPEAKER_01]: We run up to check everything as the dog okay is our friend okay was taking a shower at the house like you're just like what just happened everything's okay my god, but these kids stole her car in front of us.
[SPEAKER_01]: So insane.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we were able to call the police as fast as you possibly could have.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, they're like, when do you think this happened?
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're like, no, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: It happened right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Two minutes ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it happened this very instant.
[SPEAKER_01]: So did she find her like, first of all, the cops, the cop was also 16.
[SPEAKER_01]: It seemed.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we were like, maybe they're friends of yours.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, are they friends of yours, ma'am?
[SPEAKER_01]: Sergeant Papa was her name, um, Sergeant Papa.
[SPEAKER_01]: Are they friends of yours?
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, so they're like, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: This is not unheard of, our thought on it is that we will is very likely we'll have the car within the next like several hours and that it will be because they have left the car somewhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so they, you know, we gave them the plates and
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like one in the morning that they got a call that the car had been towed.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was in nearby New Haven, like the nearest city city.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it had been towed because it was, you know, left somewhere weird.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they didn't know, like, the status of the car so then the next day they went.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was it turned out that they had ripped out.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was a
[SPEAKER_01]: some kind of system inside the car they had ripped out also because it probably could have told us where the car was and they had you know the car was empty so they were like I'm sure they took something but they were kind of racking their brains there was no you know it's the kind of thing where even you lose your wallet you're like what was in my wallet it's like they were doing that like what was in my car but they couldn't totally remember so hopefully that me and stuffy and important you know I'm sure over the next two we totally oh shit that was in
[SPEAKER_01]: But nothing too major, they cracked the windshield, they broke off the antenna, there was like a couple weird things like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think they took off the front license plate and threw it away maybe, probably because they were like, uh, still in car.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they trashed it, but not, it seems like they trashed it not beyond recognition, like they trashed it in a way where everything is fixable.
[SPEAKER_01]: But our friends who were hosting us and like we wanted to go get ice cream that night, we wanted to go get like lobster roll the next day and we were just down a car.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was just like a wild thing where my friend would be like, should we all go get ice cream and I would be like literally how.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the next day we took her on our way out of town and dropped her at a car rental place because they rented a car to get home, but it was just like I was so impressed with the couple that we stayed with because they continued to host like rock stars and
[SPEAKER_01]: 24 hours after this happened and we all just we had like a great fun dinner that night we stayed up talking I don't know it was like my friend after it happened was like oh okay like I'm talking about right after it happened and Matt had called the police and her husband was talking to cops and she just turned to me she's like oh to win an upper all spritz
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just like, that's all we can ask for.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go sit at the first chapter of Gaporal Sprith, isn't let our kids play and like let back live our lives.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, I'm very impressed with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I've always been impressed with her for a lot of reasons.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like a real tough cookie and a real smart cookie and gets shit done.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm always really like term and this was like a trip where we were like getting to know them a little better And I got to say five out of five stars totally impressed.
[SPEAKER_00]: No notes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think like how quickly put that into perspective I'd be like, you know what?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's okay, because I think the hard part is like someone taking your stuff is like, yeah, your stuff is gone Sure, but I think it's the invasion of privacy and the breaking of trust between this human society like any time Those things happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just a knock on your faith and trust and that is like such is a horrible feeling like that That exists in the world is like I don't want that reinforced ever I never want that divorce that there's definitely been like locking more doors than I normally do since a half
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it shakes every minute up and the kids, you know, all the kids, obviously, were like, pretty here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I want to say, like, upset, but I also want to say excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there was, like, a lot of feelings coming from the kids that were like, what in the world is happening?
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Totally.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they wanted to talk a lot about, like, what would happen to those kids with it this, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they were like, what are the consequences?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because they're like, my consequences are no TV.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's that, guys?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know?
[SPEAKER_00]: That was a really bad thing that those kids did.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you tell me what that bar is?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like what?
[SPEAKER_00]: What's that guy?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's real.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so was a really wild trip.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, another great thing that happened that trip that I did.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to tell you about because it was so funny.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was that we went out to a restaurant the first night.
[SPEAKER_01]: We were there that was called, like,
[SPEAKER_01]: dioxide or you know something that makes sense for being where we were and it was pouring rain and we had this waiter waitress waitron.
[SPEAKER_01]: We had a waitress that I swear to you was 80.
[SPEAKER_01]: which I love like that already and she was like, hey, I'm Donna and you were like, of course you are.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was a vibe of, you know, like when you have an older waitress, it's kind of a funny power differential where you're constantly wanting to, I don't know, apologize and make them feel great and like, you almost are like, do you want to have a seat, Donna?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll go get the, I don't know, yeah, Donna was older and my friend ordered her kids to Shirley Temples
[SPEAKER_01]: And Donna brought these drinks out.
[SPEAKER_01]: She was like, sure thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: She brought these drinks out and the kids were like, we hate this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And my friend had a sip and was like, yeah, what is this?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that it's maybe ginger ale.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so when Donna came back out,
[SPEAKER_01]: She had to be like, hey, I'm just like, um, uh, these surely temples.
[SPEAKER_00]: What is in them?
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell me more, and don't know what's going on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell me more about your shirlies.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wondered if they'd notice it's ginger ale and my friend was like, cool, cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that, do you have
[SPEAKER_01]: have any like sprite or seven up and the woman was like we don't but we have an off-brand that is like a lemon lime soda with that work and my friends like definitely we do not care what the branding is but definitely they like their Shirley Temples made with a lemon lime soda if you will and Donna was totally into it so Donna goes and remakes the
[SPEAKER_01]: These two temples, we were talking about weird.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was the Donna made them with ginger ale, like between ourselves.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then Donna comes back with these two replacement drinks.
[SPEAKER_01]: It sets them on the table and turns to my friend and goes, don't worry, we had like the, we had more cranberry juice in the back.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not how you make it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, she was mixing ginger with cranberry juice to make a Shirley Temple.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then when we reordered them because they tasted weird, she mixed sprite with cranberry juice.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, it is crazy to work at a place like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where there was, you know, kids menus and Shirley Tupples on the menu, and you're making, why is it on the menu?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've never heard of you.
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's nuts.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's, that's really simple that way, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: What do we think dear readers?
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you call it right in?
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think is crazier?
[SPEAKER_00]: The way that the Shirley Temple was made of that Quinn was there when the car was stolen.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right in and let us know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right in dear readers.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're at a loss.
[SPEAKER_00]: Howdy.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're back.
[SPEAKER_01]: Were you scared?
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you miss us?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I saw the movie sinister this week.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is a scary movie.
[SPEAKER_01]: If anyone is looking for a scare, it's old school.
[SPEAKER_01]: I bet you all already saw it.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're a scary movie person, you already saw it.
[SPEAKER_01]: OK, I got this information from BBC and New York Times.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so strange.
[SPEAKER_01]: OK, so let's start in July of 2011.
[SPEAKER_01]: A nice to vote.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I ease, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I ease divorce, interviewed, to get a job at Francis Ministry of Culture in Paris.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sounds like a dream job, I think it definitely was.
[SPEAKER_01]: She shows up to interview for the job, and she's been interviewed by a senior civil servant, Christian Negray.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he says, do you want a cup of coffee?
[SPEAKER_01]: She's not really a big coffee drinker, but I think you're doing the thing where when you're interviewing, you're like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Or were overthinking it, and she was overthinking it, whatever happened, she was like, sure, but it tastes so bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she only drinks a little bit, maybe half, trying to be polite.
[SPEAKER_01]: And at some point, he's like, do you want to go on a walk while we're interviewing?
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's like, sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they go outside the office.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're going on a walk in the neighborhood, down by the water, and she realizes on the walk.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh-oh, I have to pee.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, she's, I like, hey, I'm actually really cold out.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's awkward to say that in an interview, I think.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know what I mean, you just met someone and be like, I have to pee or I have to use bathroom.
[SPEAKER_01]: So her first thing she says to him is,
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm actually pretty cold and kind of ignores it and starts walking them towards the banks of the sun.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, as she's realizing that they're getting away from any option to use the bathroom, she starts to be like, actually forget being cold.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm gonna come clean, I need to use the bathroom and he looks at her and he goes,
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's like, feeling like he's, I don't know, it's so pointed, it's such a strange way to belittle.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, she felt like a kid or something when he did it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he looked like kind of smiley.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's gets a weird vibe.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a storage cabinet that has been abandoned under a bridge at the sand.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, you can do it in here.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's like, yeah, I'm not climbing in a storage cabinet to go to the bathroom, but she starts to be like, I don't know this guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're on this walk.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's trying to get me to go in a storage cabinet to pee.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's just getting like a very weird feeling and getting very, very freaked out.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she's like, no, I'm not going to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they keep walking.
[SPEAKER_01]: and they finally walked to the Louvre and she goes to use the bathroom and they're like it costs a euro and she doesn't have a euro on her.
[SPEAKER_01]: But we have to do away with that by the way charging people to use the bathroom Europe.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a no for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's like a very clear no.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she turns to him and he's like oh I don't have any either but again there's like something a little bit happy in his demeanor.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's now in pain from holding it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she sees a place that she could use like a cafe.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she goes and runs over, goes into the bathroom there, thank goodness, but she basically doesn't make it and wets herself.
[SPEAKER_00]: She is so nice there, a nightmare.
[SPEAKER_01]: She, yeah, she pees her pants.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's having a job in her food for a job.
[SPEAKER_01]: She wants in pees her pants.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can, and like, I wish the next line I was gonna tell you is, and then she wakes up, but it's not.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess, very cold comfort in this fact that she's wearing a dress.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, if you peer pants and you're wearing a dress, it's like a little easier to hide the scenario.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's now been a really long time that she's been walking with him and doing this interview and she's just Embarrassed overwhelmed.
[SPEAKER_01]: She says she felt dizzy and drained and You know the job interview ends.
[SPEAKER_01]: She goes home and she's just like
[SPEAKER_00]: What the fuck was that?
[SPEAKER_00]: That sucked.
[SPEAKER_01]: She can't like put her finger on why she feels so weird about the whole thing other than the obvious, which is like going a job interview peer pants don't feel great, but it kind of wrecks her.
[SPEAKER_01]: her confidence, you know, when she's going in interviews with her friend on with her life, of course, it wrecks her confidence.
[SPEAKER_00]: This woman is peed her pants in a job interview.
[SPEAKER_00]: That would just, no, no, no, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't, oh, I'm okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: It wouldn't destroy me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it,
[SPEAKER_00]: I would come and destroy me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm not trying to demean the situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying that for me personally, I would be like, I can't wait to tell the people on the podcast this happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: And go out and have a message.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a message, I've been using this possible, where I don't pee my pants so that they feel better.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then it feels like, when I listen, as someone who has had an emergency on this subway and I can tell that story to later time, I remember the next day coming back being like, they all saw, they all know, I became paranoid that it was like, oh God, they all saw me do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: You just become like hyperfoad.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, it's like if you go through a breakup, if you do anything embarrassing every day after you're like, well, this is my whole new identity and everybody knows that I got dumped or that I peed myself.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you just become like your brain.
[SPEAKER_00]: The anxiety part of your brain is like, yep, and this is you now forever.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yay, brains.
[SPEAKER_01]: Five years after Marie Helene Bryce interviews for the job.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's the mother of two young kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's interviewing in Strasburg, not in Paris, but that it's the same guy interviewing her.
[SPEAKER_01]: And during the interview, he says, you look like this interview's stressing you out a little, let's go and walk while I interview you.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a nearby canal he takes her on a walk there and she feels like she really needs to be so much so that
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like, oh, I have to tell you that I have to pee and this is an emergency.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Negrate tells her there's actually a toilet nearby.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can take you to, they walk a little, they get to a place and he's like, ah, yep, no toilet.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's noticing that the way she has to pee is agonizing.
[SPEAKER_01]: She said it was actually painful how badly she had to go very suddenly and then it felt like she was in labor.
[SPEAKER_01]: She has two kids, she knows what that feels like, and she's comparing it, not great.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, like, really intense cramping and, like, an emergency, she has tear streaming down her face, and she's going pale.
[SPEAKER_01]: She realizes she's going to have to pee, like, then and there, and tells him as much because what else do you do?
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, no problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll take off my jacket.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm such a gentleman, all like, shield you while you do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she says that even though he was shielding her, he was staring at her while she peed behind his jacket.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's peeing, she gets even her dress wet with pee, but she still has to pee after she has gone.
[SPEAKER_01]: And
[SPEAKER_01]: She, he's again behind a low wall during their walk.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like she can't get rid of this feeling.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's so embarrassed, she's so ashamed.
[SPEAKER_00]: What is he dreading about like full UTI?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like just like, instant UTI?
[SPEAKER_00]: The opposite of dire, very juicy.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's like it's diaretics.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like medication that's used to manage high blood pressure.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it makes you produce urine.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, it's very obvious what's happening right to us as listeners now that he's this has happened to two women.
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't, you can imagine why it wouldn't have been obvious to them and why when you're interviewing for such a esteemed position at a company
[SPEAKER_01]: you would not imagine that the person interviewing you's plan is to try to make you peer pants.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a very, very out there thought to have, but like I said, this first woman in an ASS may be thought it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, was, or didn't think it was just,
[SPEAKER_01]: It lingered in her mind as, why do I feel so violated?
[SPEAKER_01]: Why do I feel so strange?
[SPEAKER_01]: That coffee did taste really weird.
[SPEAKER_01]: But what the fuck am I thinking?
[SPEAKER_01]: Really?
[SPEAKER_01]: This guy that works at the Ministry of Culture did this to me?
[SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't make any sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then in 2019, she gets a letter from the police and they meet with her and they're like, not just you, babe, maybe 200 women.
[SPEAKER_01]: 200.
[SPEAKER_01]: Almost 200 women.
[SPEAKER_01]: all of them in her feelings for a little bit of a smile.
[SPEAKER_01]: All of them drugged during these interviews.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a feeling of horror and, oh my god, this is real.
[SPEAKER_01]: And a feeling of, I knew it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad I know what the fuck was happening with me that day.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's, I read all different numbers.
[SPEAKER_01]: People are like 150, 200, it's said in this article that she was one of nearly 250 women that thought that she was, they were drugged by this guy between 2009 and 2018.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it has a name doing this that came about because of Giselle, Pelico, that's called chemical submission.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's this idea of someone using chemical submission to get control over someone else and getting off on, I make your body do what I want your body to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have control with this body.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like a strange rape, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, it's, yeah, it's non-consensual.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you're dragging someone.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because like the way that happens is they started looking into this guy in 2018 because he got caught taking pictures of a woman's legs under the table.
[SPEAKER_01]: At some kind of work thing, it was a colleague.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they were like, what?
[SPEAKER_01]: And he got suspended from his job and then you got fired.
[SPEAKER_01]: But to be clear, him taking pictures of her under the table was something that this was problematic behavior that had rared its head before and we know that because he already had a nickname the photographer and colleagues called him that because they knew that he did things like this, which feels absolutely crazy that this man was able to have a job up until that point.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, but when he went to court, colleagues in court share this information, like, oh, yeah, we knew that he did that, he had a nickname, and so then the prosecutors start to investigate all his devices, and that is when they find this weird spreadsheet in his computer called Experiments P.
[SPEAKER_01]: Literally, the capital letter P experienced P and that it listed 181 women that he interviewed and drugged and the spreadsheet had all kinds of things in it, what time they showed up to the interview, what time they drank whatever he gave them, and then how long it took before they peed their pants and what underwear they were wearing.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is some, that is, that is so vial.
[SPEAKER_00]: That didn't did this to him in the show again.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, it's like the thing he did, I mean, again, like I've, you know, the feeling of having to pee as a terrible feeling and then like feeling stressed and urgent and it's a horrible thing to go on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we've all been there where it's like, oh God, oh God, oh God, I need a bathroom, but to have someone just get off and watch you go like just and then record it for his own sexual gratification.
[SPEAKER_00]: Fuck you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I just like I wonder like this newspaper called him for comment and he Minimize it, but didn't deny it and it was really where he was like oh, yeah I administered drugs to 10 or 20 women.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wish someone it stopped me sooner It was so compulsive, but I really didn't have an intention to harm them or poison them for like what?
[SPEAKER_01]: These women came from far and wide, some of them were already working with him and he did this to them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Some of them he reached out to through, you know, LinkedIn in places for the interview.
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of them realized in retrospect that they were interviewing for a job that did not exist.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like he was calling them into the office to harm them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So now he's in his 60s.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's under formal investigation.
[SPEAKER_01]: The charges include drugging invasion of privacy and sexual assault and the trial is yet to happen and all these women are talking about the after effects of this having occurred where a lot of them are like forget just the horrible embarrassment or that it changed me and I didn't go out for jobs like
[SPEAKER_01]: And it screwed me up this way.
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of them are like, I have physical effects where there were long-term problems that arose that had to do with urination.
[SPEAKER_01]: And some of that psychological and some of it could be physical.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there was a woman that interviewed with him when she was 35, and she said she was never able to find another job after doing that because she was so traumatized and thought she was incompetent.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was a woman who,
[SPEAKER_01]: This happened to when she was 24 and she fainted.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
[SPEAKER_01]: Like she was like, I'm an idiot, I peed by pants.
[SPEAKER_01]: I shouldn't be allowed and public.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like a feeling of like, forget it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not gonna try.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought you were saying it wrecked people.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of, of course.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's kind of crazy that incompetent and incontinent are like incompetent.
[SPEAKER_00]: We know what that means.
[SPEAKER_00]: And incontinent means you can't hold your pee.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you, you can't hold your pee.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm just thinking about knowing how to do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Being similar is really confusing.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I,
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course, like he took their power away, he took this feeling of autonomy, and he made their victims of this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So so many women didn't have like not wanted to come forward because it's so embarrassing and that just adds their embarrassment.
[SPEAKER_01]: And some women have really felt like they want to come forward and say this is me and I don't have.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I want to come forward because I'm a victim and I don't have to hide, I shouldn't have to hide, he should have to hide.
[SPEAKER_01]: She was attacked.
[SPEAKER_01]: She was intoxicated and poisoned.
[SPEAKER_01]: And for her, even though she was poisoned, it's a sexual crime.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a sexual assault that happened to her.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's very frustrated at how long it has taken for any of this to go see its day in court.
[SPEAKER_01]: He has been able to work in human resources.
[SPEAKER_00]: He hasn't been fired?
[SPEAKER_01]: They found out that in October, there was a French newspaper that revealed that he started working under a different identity and teaching human resources and universities and being a consultant.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like she said.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's this feeling of like, this guy's just allowed to go about his business and work in other forums.
[SPEAKER_01]: The idea that you would tell the police, this woman to tell the police that the main happened her in 2019 and then in 2023 was the next time she heard from them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you imagine?
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_00]: So can't.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm saying like a nases when they came to her and they were like, you were a victim of this.
[SPEAKER_01]: You were on this spreadsheet.
[SPEAKER_01]: She was like, wow, I'm glad I figured out what happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm what's gonna happen now and they're like, we'll get back to you in four years.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's just,
[SPEAKER_00]: That's horrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: The delays, the delays have been just another really dark part of their victimization that has made them feel like this isn't being taken seriously.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're not trying to get this guy out of this street.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're not really noticing like how dangerous what he did is and how larger the effects are from what the surface assault is.
[SPEAKER_00]: What feels very similar to Giselle Pellico, where it's like, you know, the law didn't isn't matching up with the severity of the crime, and they're not able to sort of like throw the book at him.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so this man is just like continuing to live his fucking life, what a fucking asshole.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's, it's, I hate that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really,
[SPEAKER_01]: It's horrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that maybe the only thing that came from this that I can put any kind of positive spin to is that there's been a pilot program introduced where women who's suspect that they have been dragged can take samples of their blood during her hair to a lab for testing without having a file a formal complaint with the police.
[SPEAKER_01]: So just trying to put more of that control in their hands where they can go get things tested.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's still pretty problematic because
[SPEAKER_01]: In the instance of what we see happening here, it doesn't seem like these women would have thought to go get tested within an amount of time where it would have showed up in their system.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's almost like they had to sit and stew with how weird this feeling of what happened was to wonder and they might have just gone on wondering.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a very, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: you'd be really married to your blink if you had the foresight to think I'm going to leave that job interview and run and go get a year at our blood sample done so I can see if something was if I was drugged.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of a shot in the dark but I mean it is you know it's it's a step in the right direction for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah I mean the idea that it's taking so long
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, really crazy and what an absolute shit of a human being.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just the control of putting women in position that where we already have, we're already alone.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just sick, just so sick.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was already in a position of power interviewing them.
[SPEAKER_00]: They were eager to get a job.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then to further put them down and under his coercive control is just like, fuck you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Fuck you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope they get justice.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I'm going to tell the story.
[SPEAKER_00]: I got this information from NPR, The Guardian, and Wikipedia.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I want to talk about Howard Dully.
[SPEAKER_00]: Howard Dully was born in Oakland, California, in 1948.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was the oldest son of his dad, Rodney, and his mom, June Louise Pierce.
[SPEAKER_00]: His mom, sadly died in 1954 when he was five or six.
[SPEAKER_00]: She died from cancer.
[SPEAKER_00]: At this time, I think it was probably pretty customary, where when a spouse died and you had kids, I bet men remarried pretty quickly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, as of note, this is long after World War II, with it's within 10 years of World War II, so it's still baby boomers.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: More the story is he remarries.
[SPEAKER_00]: Her marriage is woman Shirley Lucille Harden.
[SPEAKER_00]: She'll go by Lou later, but he remarries her in 1955 and surely, or Lou, had her own kid.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she married a single mom, they become a little bit of the Brody Bunch, and a little bit about Howard's mom dies, and then a year later, his dad remarries.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a huge adjustment for a kid.
[SPEAKER_00]: He sort of keeps to himself, he rides his bike, he plays chess, he'll occasionally fight with his brother.
[SPEAKER_00]: He'll disobey his parents, he'll steal candy, he'll steal some sweets, but he has a paper route that he does every week and he's saving up for a record player.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he would describe himself as an average kid.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was like, I wasn't exceptional at his age, which was like, he wasn't the best kid, he wasn't the worst kid, he was just like, I was a normal kid.
[SPEAKER_00]: He kind of had an antagonistic relationship with his step mom and I'll get into later.
[SPEAKER_00]: But at 11 years old, he's introduced to this guy, Dr. Walter Freeman.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he meets Dr. Freeman, and he remembers his round glasses, a very nice suit, and he has a go-tee.
[SPEAKER_00]: He looks kind of like a beat-neck.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he was warm.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was easy to talk to.
[SPEAKER_00]: Howard would recall that he didn't feel any need to be nervous or anxious around this person.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I guess his stepmom was like, you know, Howard is a problem kid.
[SPEAKER_00]: Two months later, Howard is brought to a private hospital in San Jose, California, where his dad and stepmom admin him into the hospital.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's December 16th, 1960 at around 130 in the afternoon.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Howard is 11 years old and he is wheeled into an operating theater.
[SPEAKER_00]: He is given a series of electric shocks which sedate him so he passes out.
[SPEAKER_00]: He then suddenly wakes up and it's a day later.
[SPEAKER_00]: His eyes are super swollen, they're bruised, and he's running a high fever.
[SPEAKER_00]: His head is in a significant amount of pain, and he has no clue what happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's in a mental fog, it was almost like zombie-like.
[SPEAKER_00]: Unbeknownst to him, his dad and step mom brought him into the hospital, and Dr. Freeman administered a transorbital lobotomy on the 11-year-old child.
[SPEAKER_00]: What a transorbidal lobotomy is is a sharp instrument is thrust through the orbital roof of both sides and moved to sever brain pathways in the frontal lobe.
[SPEAKER_00]: This was, he was brought to the hospital by his family.
[SPEAKER_00]: This was administered by a doctor.
[SPEAKER_00]: The state knew these procedures were happening, no one stopped it.
[SPEAKER_00]: There didn't seem to be any necessity to this procedure.
[SPEAKER_00]: He talked about feeling detached and maybe having outbursts when he was a kid, but to be clear, his mom died when he was five, and his dad remarried, his step mom, who was cold.
[SPEAKER_00]: and demanding, and she came into the family, and she tried to control him, and he recalls that she was at a loss.
[SPEAKER_00]: She didn't know how to control him.
[SPEAKER_00]: He said he was neglected, and he was abused.
[SPEAKER_00]: He says he was beaten regularly, that he was forced to eat meals on his own.
[SPEAKER_00]: his stepmom was at a loss and she wanted to control him so she visited a bunch of psychiatrists and mental health experts before finding Dr. Freeman.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dr. Freeman had been at this point disowned by mainstream doctors.
[SPEAKER_00]: What he did, what his practices were like, they were a little bit wild and cookie.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when Howard met him that first meeting in October of 1960, Dr. Freeman diagnosed
[SPEAKER_00]: Howard Dully survives.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's 11 years old.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's pretty rare that he survives and that he does make a recovery, which is why we know so much of this stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: But he was able to get a hold of his medical records and he saw notes that Dr. Freeman made on the initial October 1960 intake meeting where Dr. Freeman wrote, he is clever at stealing, but always leaves something behind to show what he's done.
[SPEAKER_00]: If it's a banana, he throws the peel at the window.
[SPEAKER_00]: If it's a candy bar, he leaves the wrapper around someplace.
[SPEAKER_00]: He does a good deal of day dreaming, and when asked about it, he says, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: He is defined at times.
[SPEAKER_00]: You tell me to do this, and I'll do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: He has a vicious expression on his face, some of the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: The procedure cost $2,000, which was like $2,700 at the time, and he is the youngest patient ever.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dr. Freeman was notorious for taking lots of photos in videos.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there is a video and photo of the lobotomy being administered to the 11-year-old child.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you see afterwards, there's photos of Howard Dolly with his eyes swollen shut.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is a miracle he survived, but the effects of this lobotomy
[SPEAKER_00]: are clear.
[SPEAKER_00]: For years, he's in and out of mental institutions.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's in and out of jails, halfway houses.
[SPEAKER_00]: He struggled with homelessness.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was addicted to drugs and alcohol.
[SPEAKER_00]: He became a petty criminal.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was angry.
[SPEAKER_00]: This again, we'll never know what he was like without this lobotomy.
[SPEAKER_00]: The consensus is looking back, is there's really not much proof that he needed it, that he why this happened to this child.
[SPEAKER_00]: But again, this is a child who was failed by a doctor, his state, his parents, his dad would later be like, you know, I just trusted Lou.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, you married this woman and let her give your son a lobotomy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, make it make sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: A little bit about lobotomies is they were at the forefront of neurosurgery in the 30s and 40s, and this was before anti-psychotic drugs and psychotherapy.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, a lobotomy was marketed as this like miracle cure for illnesses ranging from schizophrenia to postnatal depression.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dr. Freeman brought it back to the U.S. in 1930s and he was on the forefront.
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, he developed this transorbital lobotomy where, in its early days, he used an ice pick.
[SPEAKER_00]: to administer this lobotomy through the eye ducts.
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously throughout the years, he got a more refined tool to use on his patients.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was not a safe procedure.
[SPEAKER_00]: The fatality rate of the procedure was 14%.
[SPEAKER_00]: He performed 2,000 around 2,500 lobotomies in his lifetime.
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, Dr. Freeman actually performed a lobotomy on John F. Kennedy's sister Rose, who had learning differences, and I don't know her full diagnosis, but the procedure was so botched and she was left incapacitated after the procedure that she was in and out of mental institutions for the rest of her life.
[SPEAKER_00]: Howard again miraculously went on to fully recover, which is an anomaly of the procedure.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in these articles where they interview him, they're like, you'd never know that he experienced this.
[SPEAKER_00]: He says, well, he's now 76 years old, he's still alive.
[SPEAKER_00]: He says probably the biggest thing is that he gets eye infections because from this transorbital lobotomy, they destroyed his tear ducts.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he's more susceptible to eye infections.
[SPEAKER_00]: He has a good life after years of instability.
[SPEAKER_00]: He is six, seven, so he's quite tall, pretty bulky.
[SPEAKER_00]: He has one child and he has one step son and a cat.
[SPEAKER_00]: In 2003, he was approached by NPR, and the story was recorded and released in 2005, because he's one of the few people
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's when they approached him to tell his story, that's when he saw footage and video and the notes from his doctor at the time of this procedure.
[SPEAKER_00]: In 2007, he published his memoir, which was co-authored by Charles Fleming called My Lebotomy.
[SPEAKER_00]: It became a New York Times bestseller.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, he's still living, he's with his family.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think,
[SPEAKER_00]: The devastating part is we don't know this difficult part of his life, like we don't know what would have happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I wanted to cover the story of the youngest boy to receive a lobotomy and who lived to tell the tale and if this interest to you, you should read his memoir, read these articles because
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, wow, and his dad will later be like, I've mentioned his dad, you know, when Lou died in 2001, his step mom, he said a lot of it died with her, but he's talked to his dad and I think they've reached a level of, I mean, I don't know if he's fully forgiven his father, but he's at least been able to express like you married this woman and then she gave your son a lobotomy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, yeah, I just, I don't understand that reckoning.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, really crazy, wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, the bottomy seems like something out of one blue over the kuku's nest only, but I guess it's not.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, they referenced that, you know, like I think what people see is like this catatonic, you know, it, it, it, it, it, it allowed me to attach as your frontal lobe so you're reasoning is changed.
[SPEAKER_00]: I believe that's what the procedure, you know, and that like you're not able to fully communicate.
[SPEAKER_00]: your actions to the reasoning part of your brain or something so it's like you basically cut off things and so I mean like I think it feels similar to like electro shock therapy which you've covered cases about that I know people who at the time had firsthand experience of someone in their life getting electro shock therapy like we are not that far removed from it
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when they told me this, I mean, they're older, but they recall their mom coming home and being a bit dazed and, you know, and like confuse like mom, you know, and I think
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this one, it's a parent who's doing it to a child and I think similar to your story if I'm gonna say, like, there's plenty of situations where husbands would, you know, call their wife hysterical and this kind of medical, medical trauma, what is the word I'm looking for?
[SPEAKER_00]: who was like dealing with a loss of his mother, like when underwent this horrific procedure and just the amount of people that failed him, both like the dog as a doctor, as and what's crazy is there's a book that came out about Dr. Freeman called the lobotomist because he obviously became quite large in the field.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean he operated on JFK sisters.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of people did it know what to do and they brought their family to him
[SPEAKER_00]: And they uphold his legacy, you know, they're like he was at the forefront of a lot of this stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, the challenge of like what someone's legacy and their actions, and especially in the medical field, I mean, we've covered cases like that, where people who are doing these like experimental things that perhaps have like led to great discovery, but at what cost, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: So doozy, it's a doozy folks, it's a doozy of a day, but it's a doozy, it's a doozy of a day.
[SPEAKER_01]: Nae and cool out for air.
[SPEAKER_01]: Alright, well, we will be with you next week.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we can't be bothered to push this on.
[SPEAKER_01]: We just, you know, one thing's for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: We just keep showing up and telling you things.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think you can probably count on it happening a few more times.
[SPEAKER_00]: Stay tuned back that we, the fact that stay tuned also.
[SPEAKER_00]: The fact that we've recorded this and it's this bad.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think is impressive.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know what?
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, half the battle, show up.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, we'll see you next week.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bye, do we even?