[SPEAKER_01]: The queer family about gas Love is love is love on the queer family about gas Love is love is love on the queer family about gas Love is love is love on the queer family about gas
[SPEAKER_00]: LGBT legal issues are not the kind of thing that gets widely talked about.
[SPEAKER_00]: I always knew I wanted to be a family lawyer.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did not know the ways in which family law really affects our community specifically until after graduating and actually getting into the work and talking to families, especially talking to transparents and all the complexities that go into being parents and all the extra steps that we have to take.
[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome y'all to the Clear Family Podcast, the show all about family, but with Gabe.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm your host Jamie, and this is the show that highlights celebrates Uplusen normalizes a legit particular family, isn't all of our fabulous identities, and this is a good one I've been excited.
[SPEAKER_02]: to share this one.
[SPEAKER_02]: I sat down with Rachel Levy, Rachel Levy is a lawyer based in Philadelphia, Pencil Vania.
[SPEAKER_02]: And in this episode, we get into the nitty gritty about all the things.
[SPEAKER_02]: We lit a particular folks need to do to protect our families.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're getting into legal ease babies.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we have some great discussions about the paperwork that needs to be filed to protect our families.
[SPEAKER_02]: Also, the pros and cons of the different ways to build our families, we kind of talked through that in a legal eye with a legal eye, so to speak, and then we talk about Trans folks and what what we can do to help
[SPEAKER_02]: keep trans folk safe and what trans folks can do to help protect themselves.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's a really great episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've been excited.
[SPEAKER_02]: Stick with it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Listen to the whole thing because it's great.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I want to roll the tape because it's kind of a long episode because we really had a lot to talk about.
[SPEAKER_02]: But before I do, I've been down very down lately as many of you all might be too because Dolly part and recently passed away.
[SPEAKER_02]: Dolly was really, really important to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: she held a very special place in my life.
[SPEAKER_02]: My whole life actually I had many many of her tapes growing up and my mother and I used to sing our hearts out in the car to dolly.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I just wanted to dedicate this episode to dolly and send love to you all who are feeling it this week because that was a tough one.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had no idea, you could mourn so hard about somebody you have never even met, but and then Tim Curry, like they're taking the, the grim reaper's taking the wrong ones, that's all I have to say.
[SPEAKER_02]: We didn't say DP, we said DP, can I get a name in?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like what the actual, the grim reaper needs to be fired and we need to put somebody else in their place, because this is not going well.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, anyway, time to roll the tape, please enjoy this episode, and please feel free to reach out if you have any questions, clarify questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, Helen, Bula, let's roll this tape.
[SPEAKER_02]: Here we go, let's go.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hi Rachel.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hello, very nice to meet you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nice to meet you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have already told you this off camera, but I want to say it to the audience.
[SPEAKER_02]: I am really excited about this conversation and I think this conversation is overdue because you're free.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you bring a lot of expertise to a certain area and just given the state of the things in our country right now and just our families in general, it's very needed right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: So with that being said, before I spoil it for everyone, why don't we go right into your 30 second elevator pitch?
[SPEAKER_02]: So people can understand why I'm so excited and what is so important about this conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you ready Rachel?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm ready.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, on your mark, get set.
[SPEAKER_00]: Go.
[SPEAKER_00]: So my new is Rachel Levy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am an attorney with Journal Log Group.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're an LGBT family law firm based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
[SPEAKER_00]: The firm itself, we try our best to be a one-stop shop for the community so we can help with things like estate planning.
[SPEAKER_00]: option ART law, family building for our LGBT community, our trans friends and our legal affirmation services and I'm really, really proud that I get to be a provider to the community and that I also get to help with those things and I get to help build families and answer questions that can be really scary.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, boom, amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you did do it in 30 seconds.
[SPEAKER_02]: We had a little bloop in there.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the clock was wrong.
[SPEAKER_02]: You did that.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is fine with me.
[SPEAKER_02]: We need to chat all about all things pertaining to our families and the law and what we need to do to protect ourselves.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we're going to get into that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But before that, I do also know that you are on a family planning journey right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you tell us a little bit about that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because you are a member of our community.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I am a very proud queer woman and I have the absolute privilege I'm engaged to the love of my life, Ren who is also non-binary and also identifies as trans.
[SPEAKER_00]: And right now we're in the very fun part of wedding planning where I don't have to do anything yet so everything is super fun and exciting for the time being that will change rapidly and that's fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you also mentioned something when you wrote to me about how you didn't realize how complicated everything was until after you finished law school right you didn't realize all the legalities and all the stuff you want to go to that a little bit because also you're you're wedding planning to you're dealing with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to keep using the word privilege because it really just feels like one.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel incredibly lucky.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is my dream job that I did not know about in law school.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's how I constantly talk about it because LGBT legal issues are not the kind of thing that gets widely talked about.
[SPEAKER_00]: I always knew I wanted to be a family lawyer.
[SPEAKER_00]: did not know the ways in which family law really affects our community specifically until after graduating and actually getting into the work and talking to families, especially talking to trans parents and all the complexities that go into being parents and all the extra steps that we have to take.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's very weird to have the kind of job where a big part of my job is education.
[SPEAKER_00]: to tell people about their own legal responsibilities, to be a very weird bearer of that news to say there's actually extra steps we have to take to protect ourselves.
[SPEAKER_00]: The steps are not particularly scary, but they can sound really odd to say you actually need to get a lot more involved in the legal status of being a parent than cisgender and straight people get to do all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's it's a really weird thing to navigate and it's something I wish we talked about more.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it feels very odd to say, I'm a lawyer and I didn't know about a ton of those steps.
[SPEAKER_00]: Things that we'll talk about today too, but I didn't know about them till I was a lawyer.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I get the benefit of now very loudly preaching about it to all of my friends and family and making sure that we're educating people on the steps we can take to protect ourselves against a very uncertain and very...
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to get too negative too quick, but a very odd world that we now have to navigate.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: then it's getting worse.
[SPEAKER_02]: And to your point, I still talk to people.
[SPEAKER_02]: I still talk to guests who didn't realize they needed to do second-parent adoption.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then there are some, I've even had lawyers tell me, no, you don't have to do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've had every LGBTQ lawyer, every LGBTQ specific lawyer has said absolutely get it better to be safe and sorry, but I've talked to lawyers who
[SPEAKER_02]: who are kind of misguided on it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So can we just clarify, can we?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, from from your mouth to our ears, let's get some clarity on what we should, what we need to be doing to be the safest possible.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I think very brief because I am a lawyer.
[SPEAKER_00]: I always come with a disclaimer.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am an attorney.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not yet your attorney.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is an informational conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is a yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And for same-sex parents, queer parents, LGBT parents, trans parents,
[SPEAKER_00]: which is just the term I use for it, it has a bunch of terms.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll talk about that too.
[SPEAKER_00]: But getting a confirmatory adoption that shows and confirms that you are the legal parent to your child is one of the biggest steps you can take to protect your relationship with your kid's period.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then in addition, there's a bunch of other things that you can do to protect your relationship with your kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: And those get a bit harder to say whether or not someone needs it.
[SPEAKER_00]: That always gets into make sure you're talking to an adoption or ART lawyer specifically.
[SPEAKER_00]: Make sure you're talking to someone about your situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the next big things are, when we're navigating surrogacy, let's make sure we know about pre-birth orders.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's make sure that whatever agency or organization or surrogate or gestational carrier we're using, that they know about that process too, they know what to expect it.
[SPEAKER_00]: When we're using known donors, get known donor agreements,
[SPEAKER_00]: These, there's a whole other conversation that we could have, but please write down that you are an intended parent and that the person that is helping you to conceive is a known donor.
[SPEAKER_00]: Make sure you write it down in terms that everyone agrees on and understands.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the biggest thing that everyone tends to
[SPEAKER_00]: I think decide is not as important as the rest of this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Get your estate planning done.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not sexy.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not fun.
[SPEAKER_00]: Get it done.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so important.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's even more important for transparent and parents of trans kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: A state planning looks like a bunch of different things.
[SPEAKER_00]: It looks like actually deciding what happens in the case of an emergency.
[SPEAKER_00]: What happens when someone passes away.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's also things like who makes healthcare decisions for us.
[SPEAKER_00]: which for trans people is even more important to make sure that you know who is making your health care decisions, if you can't make them yourself, and who makes them for your children, if you can't make them yourself.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is one of the things it is the hardest to talk about is to say, let's be a little bit morbid, let's be in a worst case scenario because all of this is worst case scenario.
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope truly to go full circle my favorite thing to say about adoption degrees is it is extremely important to get and I hope you never need it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope no one ever asked you for it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope it stays in a safe and I hope that you never touch it for the rest of your life.
[SPEAKER_00]: And for most people, that's not true.
[SPEAKER_00]: Someone's gonna ask you for it at some point and I'd really rather you do the annoying thing of getting it than do the terrifying thing of not getting it and finding out way later that that was a step that you missed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep, and speaking of state planning, my wife and I need to update our will.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the wrong people are like, we have to update it.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have to keep doing that.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's that's another thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: So good.
[SPEAKER_02]: Good.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's such a lawyer answer, but I'm like, get your documents done.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you never have to think about them again until the next time life changes and then and then we make little updates and then we change things to make sure that they're correct.
[SPEAKER_02]: and also somebody with kids who waited to get everything done until after we had the kids who you're tired then like you have time for all these emails and phone calls and like it's too much but I hear you and also I'm not a planner so I am I am a last minute maybe wants to be yeah right so what do you say because I know that there are people thinking but what why do I need to adopt my kid I'm on the birth certificate what do you say to that
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh, and I'm so sorry if I am the bearer of bad news right now for someone who's listening and being very confident that they've done everything right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so sorry, birth certificates in the United States are administrative documents.
[SPEAKER_00]: They are not legal documents.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's usually really surprising for people to find out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Being listed on the birth certificate is very important.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is usually a good sign for a proof of parentage as a sign that you are someone's
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, one of the goals of a conformatory adoption, for example, a lot of my examples will be Pennsylvania and New Jersey because those are the two states I practice in.
[SPEAKER_00]: In Pennsylvania, if you are unmarried, both of you cannot go on the birth certificate, even if you are both intended parents.
[SPEAKER_00]: You both went through the process of having a child together.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's, again, lunch of asterisk, lunch of little exceptions, but in general, if you're unmarried, you typically don't end up on the birth certificate together.
[SPEAKER_00]: Straight people, too.
[SPEAKER_00]: It gets a little bit, gets a little bit into the weeds of what we consider a bio-parent in a birth parent and what hospital staff accept, and Pennsylvania by the records accepts, it gets a little in the weeds.
[SPEAKER_00]: But so in general, unmarried people, it takes a little bit extra work.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I say all that to say, being on a burst of a get is not the be all end all of your parental rights.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not what decides if you are a parent.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is one of the symptoms.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's one of the things we can use to show.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's also one of the reasons even for people who get adoption degrees.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hopefully you can link it in the safe because being on the burst of a get is usually good enough proof of parentage.
[SPEAKER_00]: It isn't always.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's an administrative document.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not legal.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of organizations and agencies know that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had one lawyer years ago tell me that it's basically like look at the person to figure it as just identification.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, yes, these were the two adults around when you were born.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yes, they are your parents, but it's just identification.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not legally binding, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And another good example of it is birth certificates are changeable.
[SPEAKER_00]: Every state has a different process for how you change it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Adoption is one of those ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: Also establishing paternity later in life also common for people.
[SPEAKER_00]: And something that means that that information could change over time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so birth certificates on their own,
[SPEAKER_00]: not the thing that proves you are your child's parent.
[SPEAKER_00]: It also doesn't pass parental rights on its own.
[SPEAKER_00]: So like being on someone's birth certificate, that in of itself doesn't mean that you have the right to decide what school someone goes to, or to have them listed as your next of kin, or that they automatically make medical decisions for you if you're incapacitated.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so adoption is one of those things that
[SPEAKER_00]: just really solves a bunch of problems at the same time.
[SPEAKER_00]: A bunch of other, there's truly so many, I really wish adoption was talked about less as a process for like, quote unquote, getting a child or or finding a child.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wish we talked about it for what it is, which is a process through which we all establish, who someone's parents are.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes that's because a new parent child relationship is being created.
[SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes it's because we want to make clear it already existed.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of my biggest legal pet peeves, which I talk about constantly is the terminology that we use to talk about it is crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is not helpful and is very confusing and it really also varies state by state.
[SPEAKER_00]: to use Pennsylvania and New Jersey in Pennsylvania if you are married we call it a step parent adoption which for a bunch of people sounds really weird because I'm not a step parent like I'm not a step parents are often important but yes but if we if we created these babies together if I was around for the entire process and then it feels like no no no don't call me step
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the second version of Pennsylvania is that there is a second parent adoption which is the term for two people who are unmarried and the number of times that I have had someone who very well meaning will read through the petition that we've prepared or the court paperwork that's being filed and they'll say can you actually call it a second parent adoption instead of step parent because I prefer that term and I have to respond back and say
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just a legal term of art.
[SPEAKER_00]: It has nothing to do with your relationship with your child.
[SPEAKER_00]: Actually, in some cases, doing a quote-in-quote step-parent adoption is easier than doing a second parent adoption because there's less requirements when you're not married.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then take this whole thing into New Jersey.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a totally other third option.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's co-parenting adoptions.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that has its own requirements and its own setup.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that also gets weird where people say, well, I thought I was a second parent.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why am I now a co-parent?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or actually, I'd like to be called a co-parent instead.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and the answer is it's a bunch of people trying to create laws that make sense that don't really quite adjust for how LGBT families actually get made and how they actually exist.
[SPEAKER_02]: These are not policies that are made with us in mind, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're kind of navigating a system that no, they're not going to use the right terminology for us because they didn't think about us.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're not the ones in the center of this, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's frustrating.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yes, there are all these, and there are new things now because when I started, the only thing in New York, the only thing that was available to us that we knew about was second-parent adoption.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And now I have guests writing to me and letting me know that, oh, well, in California, I can do this and that I can, there's so many different things now and some are cheaper than others, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: How does one sift through all the noise to figure out what exactly,
[SPEAKER_02]: is that the most affordable and best option for them where they are like, what's the easiest way?
[SPEAKER_02]: And somebody who doesn't have a lot of money, like, what can we do?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I wish I hadn't easier than you thought.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think like the bottom line answer that I want to say for every single person is talk to a lawyer.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's something that also sounds really intimidating when we talk about finances.
[SPEAKER_00]: Talk to a lawyer borrowed in your state.
[SPEAKER_00]: Talk to someone who specifically does adoption or ART law.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't go to, I say this with a lot of love as someone who has family friends that practice a bunch of different things.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do not go to your best friend who does,
[SPEAKER_00]: bankruptcy law.
[SPEAKER_00]: She cannot help you here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Go to someone who actually practices it in your state and try to find someone that you're comfortable having that conversation with.
[SPEAKER_00]: My office, just as an example, we always do free consultations.
[SPEAKER_00]: Other offices do low-cost consultations so that you can have that first conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Try to find someone that you are comfortable talking to and find someone that is affordable for you so you can have just the initial talk.
[SPEAKER_00]: and then ask them all of your questions, the amount of times I talk to people in my initial consultations, where I can tell that they don't know if there's a limit to how many questions they're allowed to ask with all questions, there's so many of them, there's no such thing as a bad question, there's no such, it is so confusing and hard to navigate for reasons that truly if I tried to get into it would make this conversation too confusing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then even in consultations do not be afraid to tell a lawyer, this is like an exploratory conversation for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is, I talk very often to people who will say, I am exploring surrogacy, I do not, I have not talked to an agency, I have not spoken to any surrogates or carriers, I am extremely at the beginning of my process.
[SPEAKER_00]: What does the process look like?
[SPEAKER_00]: When do I talk to you?
[SPEAKER_00]: When do I meet a lawyer?
[SPEAKER_00]: When can you let me know what the steps are to expect in the process?
[SPEAKER_00]: I love those calls because it's just a chance to get to say the things I wish people knew at the start versus the amount of times I've talked to someone who's already in the middle of the process.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I say, oh, no, actually we were missing a couple.
[SPEAKER_00]: We can make up for it later on.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: But there are things that you could have done to make this a little bit easier if we had talked sooner.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's going to be fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: We can work around it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's never because someone didn't want to take the stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's because they didn't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was actually this secret thing I was supposed to do, like to, to, to demystify it a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of my favorite examples, donor agreements for people who use known donors, especially known sperm donors, because that tends to be the kind of thing where people who go between doing a home insemination, they might be using a physician's office or might be using a fertility clinic by then.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so a lot of times people say, well, we set out loud that he's a donor and I'm the intended parent.
[SPEAKER_00]: That does not help, that does help in some ways that you both know your status.
[SPEAKER_00]: But there are so many other things we have to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Please do agree with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's one of those things where I wish we could talk and just say, Here's the reasons why all of these things I sound really nitpicky about that I sound like I'm just
[SPEAKER_00]: trying to just sell you on another thing that I think that you need, why it's not really, it's not about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just about, hey, even if you can't use me, here's a bunch of other affordable options, here are ways you could do it yourself, here are ways to make this as accessible as we can, but the most important thing is protect yourself.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is the bottom line and protecting yourself right now just takes more steps.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's better to be safe than sorry.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what I always say just put it in and that's just better to be safe than sorry.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we got to dot the eyes and we have to cross the T's like there's no way to get around it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like we have to be diligent in it and it sucks.
[SPEAKER_02]: It sucks that we just have to do this when our straight friends never even think about any of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And like, yes, I asked straight friends, you have your will.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I have to do that someday.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, and because for them,
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we can't assume.
[SPEAKER_02]: We just can't assume.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's better to be safe and sorry.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it sucks.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's daunting.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also, I'm loving what you're saying about like just find, you know, go to the free consultation, ask all of the questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it just how we go about on our family building journeys, you have to approach protecting your, our families in the same way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Any time I get to spend talking about this is not time wasted.
[SPEAKER_00]: The number of times I've had someone who, even if in that conversation says, I don't think I'm going to be able to hire you or I don't think I'm going to move forward.
[SPEAKER_00]: My response isn't, oh, okay, so the conversation's done now.
[SPEAKER_00]: My response is awesome.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what are your next steps after this conversation?
[SPEAKER_00]: what is your, how are you planning to bridge the gap then, what options do you need, what resources can I give you for your next steps?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I think the main reason I say that is there are so many people who think talking to a lawyer is intimidating.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I try very hard to be intimidating.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I'm very silly.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so in our conversations, I always try to emphasize that it is not time wasted if you leave knowing more than when we started.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is the important.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the reason that you talk to a lawyer is to understand what's going on.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there are websites out there.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's one in particular.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure if she's still doing but connecting rainbows, have you heard of connecting with us?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a phenomenal resource.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Jenna, the founder of it, has, I think she's still doing it has a curated list of law for LGBTQ friendly law firms, LGBTQ friendly fertility.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like all the things, it's like a
[SPEAKER_02]: which is super important.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because another whole thing that I haven't even mentioned is it is hard enough to find an adoption and air to lawyer that knows what we are talking about.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is even harder to find a queer one or a trans one.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is very hard to find someone in the community that you feel comfortable talking to.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is truly, I am very excited to get to be a resource for a bunch of reasons and also one is,
[SPEAKER_00]: to make this feel less weird.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a very weird conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: I hate talking about it in the terms in the legal terms that I have to.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so a lot of times it is helpful to just say, this is really weird and it can feel achy and it's also something I get.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not coming at this from the perspective of a cis person that just assumes that you would have figured this out by now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's something we're going to navigate this together.
[SPEAKER_00]: Another thing I just feel like
[SPEAKER_00]: I am a lawyer.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love to talk.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love going to court.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so one of the things I had to learn really quickly when I started practicing is not every hearing is happy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And what I mean by that is it comes up for me a lot for adoption specifically.
[SPEAKER_00]: It also comes up for name changes.
[SPEAKER_00]: When I work a lot with trans clients and we go through the name change process is for some people, the adoption process or the name change process, these things that confirm who we are and our relationships to each
[SPEAKER_00]: is big in celebratory.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's big and happy and it's exciting and the judges are super excited about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And give out like toys and stuff to animals and make it into this really big celebration.
[SPEAKER_00]: And for other people, this is the equivalent of going to the DMV because
[SPEAKER_00]: I do not need a judge to tell me my relationship to my children.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't need, I don't even need a judge to tell me what my name is.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know I know these things to be true about myself, and it's such an odd part of the clear and trans-experience that I try to go into every single hearing, assuming we're at the DMV, and as soon as someone's excited, I am also excited and we can we can celebrate together if that's what we want to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And also for a lot of families,
[SPEAKER_00]: it's a very weird disconnect to have everyone around them trying to insist this is a big deal trying to insist this is like a big happy day and I'm like the big happy day was when their child was born the big happy day was the day they brought them home this is a this is a administrative task they have do as part of
[SPEAKER_00]: family bill.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a thing that has to happen to protect their kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not always blue.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes it's just a handshake and a I'm glad that got over with.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we did it and we finally did it.
[SPEAKER_02]: We finally did it.
[SPEAKER_02]: We finally did all the paperwork.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah and it feels like we're seeking validation which we are not, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: I get that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it goes both ways.
[SPEAKER_02]: It can go either way.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I do want to talk about our transgender family and all the things that we need to think about in helping them protect themselves and trans parents and then trans children as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: How do we navigate that?
[SPEAKER_02]: But before we get into that, I have a question.
[SPEAKER_02]: in terms of known donors.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've talked to a lot of people who have used known donors in very various ways, you know, DIY ways, all the things.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have talked to people who have just had the verbal agreement because there are BFFs and, you know, it goes great.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have talked to people who hand-shook and then it went real south.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we know that getting that agreement getting and in paper is super, super important.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think I think most people know that at this point, you know, I've we helped.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think.
[SPEAKER_02]: But what do you say?
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's let's just dive a little bit into no, no donor land.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also, you know, there are there are like no donor agencies now.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I would love to know your take from a legal standpoint on that because some of these agencies make these claims that they are, they're going to keep you in touch with this donor forever.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's
[SPEAKER_02]: known anonymous donor type deal like a dating service and these agencies really make these huge promises that actually put me a little bit in a nervous place when I think about what they're promising.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'd love to hear your legal perspective on it because I think it's really important right now and it's like kind of the craze right now and it makes me nervous.
[SPEAKER_00]: puts me, puts me a little on edge too.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the biggest thing is when I want to start from the place of the decision between using known donors and anonymous donors, always personal, always individual.
[SPEAKER_00]: There is no correct answer.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just want to start with.
[SPEAKER_00]: having seen both sides, there are absolute pros and cons to both.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when it comes to known donors, the biggest thing I can always caution is choose carefully and just beware a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the reason for that is a lot of times people are doing it with close friends or family members, which is also lovely.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's great to already have a relationship with a donor.
[SPEAKER_00]: It also puts you in a weird spot of having to navigate the donor relationship with someone you already know.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the reasons I talk about donor agreements, and this will tie in on both sides, but one of the reasons I talk about them so much, I usually explain them to people to say they do a few different things.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the things is severing parental rights, it's something that establishes that this person is a donor, and that they are not a legal parent.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the other things that also sets boundaries, it also creates guidelines to what a donor relationship looks like in any way you want it to.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the weirdest things nowadays, like the modern era is social media.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's usually in my own agreements that I dropped, a discussion about how much do we want to share on social media about this?
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of donors like donors from agencies want to promote it.
[SPEAKER_00]: They might want to be able to share information about their relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of parents also might be really transparent.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they want to talk about having donor can see children and their experience with a donor.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of other people want this to mimic
[SPEAKER_00]: and they want everyone to be really clear on what communication looks like moving forward.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is a very easy way to, it needs these a little bit of an exaggeration, but it's a way to set boundaries for each other that we are not being confrontational.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't have to fight with each other about what they mean.
[SPEAKER_00]: We are making sure we all understand the expectations going into it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is tricky to navigate when you know your donor, that's also really tricky to navigate when you might not necessarily know them and depending on how you meet them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nowadays there are the donor agencies that have a lot of, I think a lot of intent and a lot of promise in the kind of relationship they can create.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the things I am very wary of are sperm donor apps and donor apps that say that they function kind of like a dating app where they help you to match with a potential donor.
[SPEAKER_00]: The thing about agencies and apps and the internet is people can share whatever they want to for better or for worse.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's hard to verify information that way.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is also hard to confirm.
[SPEAKER_00]: what you think of this person who no matter what you are going to have a relationship with.
[SPEAKER_00]: Even if that relationship is mimicking something like an anonymous donor relationship, no matter how much we try, this is still someone that we are going to have to navigate.
[SPEAKER_00]: What are those boundaries look like?
[SPEAKER_00]: What does conversation look like?
[SPEAKER_00]: down the road in 10 years when I need medical testing as part of my child's health care is this someone that I feel like I'm going to be able to confidently reach out to and have health care conversation or is this someone that as soon as donations are done, I don't really want to be involved with them again or I'm not comfortable reaching out to them again.
[SPEAKER_00]: How often is this person donating?
[SPEAKER_00]: How big is their donor pod?
[SPEAKER_00]: What is your child sibling
[SPEAKER_00]: And that answer for some people is exciting in both directions.
[SPEAKER_00]: And also something that you can't always confirm with the answer is.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, these some of these agencies guarantee that the donor will only only donate to their agency.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can't guarantee that.
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: You cannot guarantee that.
[SPEAKER_02]: At least like, I'm just like with my anonymous donor, I know it's very possible that he went to other places to donate, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: But that comes, that just came with the territory of the choice I made.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the other thing I'll say just to, because I truly want to be as non-biased as possible, this is not my way of tipping my hand, because there are a ton of pros of using a known donor.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are a ton of things that you do not get out of the relationship that you have, or don't have within an anonymous donor.
[SPEAKER_00]: But one of the other things that you get within an anonymous donor is also tracking, is also that they are registered as a donor, that their information is stored, that there's a certain amount of medical testing,
[SPEAKER_00]: with known donors.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is possible.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is absolutely something people choose to include in those relationships.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's also not always something people want.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's the same thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Everyone's kind of arrangement is different and works for them.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it also, it makes me a bit uneasy at just how different those relationships can be and how much information a donor can and can't choose to share.
[SPEAKER_00]: that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's always the place where if you want to use a known donor, there's a bunch of reasons that you should.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is a great way to maintain a relationship with your donor.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is a great way to maintain access to healthcare information.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you are using someone like a family friend or a relative, that's an incredible way to keep that person close to your child to create that family relationship to have a biological connection to your child.
[SPEAKER_00]: And also, it comes with a
[SPEAKER_00]: This is your uncle who maybe we all feel a bit uncomfortable navigating what that relationship looks like at the start.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is also knowing that you have this biological connection to someone you don't particularly know.
[SPEAKER_00]: And for some people, that's the pro.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is the really big benefit and to other people, especially when we talk about the promise is being made about that relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is also the scary part.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the thing that makes it a bit more uncertain as I'm
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have spoken to many, many people who it worked out and it works out beautifully.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I am in all of their families and sometimes I think, God, I should have taken this route.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, because every route is valid.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And every route is beautiful.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also we need to be safer and not sorry.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll tip my hand a little bit just to say some of the, some of the answers run is going to kill me, but some of the things that we have decided for for read and I we always talk about it as whether, whether not we want to make a child from scratch or.
[SPEAKER_00]: which is essentially do we want to go through the process of fertility and everything that comes with it, or the other thing we talk a lot about is being career foster parents and being parents in a way that might not necessarily involve adoption or at least not immediately, but
[SPEAKER_00]: Just being parents and being supports, we go back and forth wildly about which of those two we want to do based on what the world looks like what we want our family to look like what we want our careers to look like and those things are all big deals one thing that we have decided is that if we decide to make a baby from scratch is we would love to use an anonymous donor and the unfortunate reason is because we
[SPEAKER_00]: being a queer couple means eventually having the conversation of if I had to ask someone for sperm who's would it be and for both of us we have two best friends that we truly and I'm so sorry to Danny and Thomas if you were listening truly had to sit down and be like
[SPEAKER_00]: Do we want an uncle Thomas?
[SPEAKER_00]: And just really wrestling with, do we have someone in our life that we feel passionately about using?
[SPEAKER_00]: The answer was really no.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then do we want to go through the process of finding a known donor that we may not necessarily know?
[SPEAKER_00]: And for us in our situation, my partner is Catholic, I am Jewish, and one of the biggest things for me was finding a donor that matched who whichever of us is not going to be the bio-parent.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is something that is, unfortunately, but easier to do through anonymous donors.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a bit easier for me to find someone with Jewish ancestry to make sure my children have that connection the way that I do.
[SPEAKER_00]: That also means you end up in the extremely weird boat of looking at donor websites.
[SPEAKER_00]: and it kind of just feels like buying a couch and that is something again, no one taught me in law school and no one prepared me for how weird that is.
[SPEAKER_00]: Adonem is doing her websites are crazy and again it's lovely to have access to all this information never felt so weird as listening to someone answer a question about what's your favorite I think like childhood toy and I'm like I don't I don't
[SPEAKER_02]: They're trying to give you all the insight into the part.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I hear you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yes, here we go with the with the anonymous search like comes with it's very real set of cons as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yes, these donor sites are
[SPEAKER_02]: Wild, it's wild, and many people have said when they're in that process, they feel kind of like they're playing God, and that feels really not okay, right, and it's like, so, and then of course, just to just to make this even on because I don't want to at least I think there should never be ever any shame in whatever path you choose and anybody who shames.
[SPEAKER_02]: your path is not like move on, move on.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you find some kind of agency who says they're the more ethical one and they do like move away because if they're throwing shame, they're not, they're not in the right game.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's, that's all I'll say there.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's all I'll say there.
[SPEAKER_02]: However,
[SPEAKER_02]: The, you know, with the with the anonymous donors, you don't know how many times they're donating.
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't know if they went to five different ages.
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's true.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's a choice and the anonymous donor conception does not have the legal.
[SPEAKER_02]: barriers that it should.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is not where it needs to be.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is very true.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so this is something that scares you that more than than like grandparent's coming in, then this is not the path for you, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: But don't shame other people who choose the path they choose here.
[SPEAKER_00]: There is no wrong answer when
[SPEAKER_00]: queer and transparent have to navigate this just, and again, this isn't something that's easy to Google, this isn't something that's easy to find, this is a complicated conversation that is going to involve a lawyer, a doctor, a bunch of internet websites nowadays, a bunch of your family giving you opinions on what they think is the best option.
[SPEAKER_00]: You are going to get perspective from everyone.
[SPEAKER_00]: The only thing that matters is what makes you feel comfortable and if you are creating a family with a partner, what makes your partner feel comfortable, that's it.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the end of that conversation and for donor conceived people out there and to center the child.
[SPEAKER_02]: We chose for them.
[SPEAKER_02]: They didn't make the choice.
[SPEAKER_02]: We chose it for them.
[SPEAKER_02]: So make sure we're thinking through how we're going to talk to them about it and how we're going to weave their origin story into their lives because that is the most important thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because that origin story is always going to be made with love.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like this,
[SPEAKER_00]: This entire process, that is one of the things I love the most about my clients and the people that I genuinely am privileged to work with is these are people who love each other and love their kids so much.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're going to do some really scary stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're going to go to a judge.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're going to hire a lawyer.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're going to do all these really intimidating things because they just really love their kids and they want to make sure that they're safe.
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, so we're all doing our best and let's not judge each other.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's all I wanted to say because I've been seeing a lot of accounts online on social lately that are like like sides are being pitted against each other and it shouldn't be that way.
[SPEAKER_02]: Every every path is valid.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're all in the same boat of figuring out of extremely weird answer to what extremely uncomfortable question.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and unfortunately we have to
[SPEAKER_02]: get help to create our family.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk about our our trans family, our trans family members, our trans, our trans community.
[SPEAKER_02]: What if your kid is trans in today's world and you're scared?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like what's what advice do you have for like you know better than me?
[SPEAKER_00]: So one of the other hats I'm very lucky to wear is my practice areas at the firm are adoption and ART and also at name changes and what I call transgender legal issues which is just the fancy way of saying all the things that come along with being trans nowadays that are hard to navigate and are helpful to talk to a lawyer about and so that ends up being a lot of conversations that I get to have one of the biggest things that you can do.
[SPEAKER_00]: when we have a trans child, is make sure that your child is comfortable, ask them what they want, ask them how you can support them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that always looks different for different people.
[SPEAKER_00]: It also depends on what state you're in, unfortunately.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the biggest thing I can say is listen to your child and listen to what they tell you and support their decisions.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes that is going to mean doing things like socially transitioning, that means supporting your children when they wear.
[SPEAKER_00]: different clothes.
[SPEAKER_00]: They use different pronouns.
[SPEAKER_00]: They tell you what name they want to go by.
[SPEAKER_00]: That also might mean the legal name change process, which is unite man.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is different in every state.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is burdened some most of the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some states have made that process easier.
[SPEAKER_00]: Pennsylvania, right now, has no publication, is still a requirement if you want to change your child's name.
[SPEAKER_00]: obligation, which means it goes in two newspapers.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to advertise.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm going to go on a soapbox.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, Pennsylvania, because I'm going to, I got Pennsylvania New Jersey or very good examples for each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: The current law in Pennsylvania is anyone who gets a name change has to publish in two newspapers.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's one legal newspaper and one newspaper of general circulation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Kids too.
[SPEAKER_00]: kids too.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no age limit or requirement.
[SPEAKER_00]: There is an exception.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can get waiver of publication, but the only argument you can have is that the person whose name is being changed would have reason to fear for their safety if they were required to publish notice.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think any any trans people would have reason to fear for their safety exactly it's is a very good example of a law that was not written for trans people that was not at all and the law was originally written with the intent being that domestic violence survivors or people that are fleeing harmful and dangerous situations.
[SPEAKER_00]: wouldn't have to out their new location to change their name, but nowadays we have kind of co-opted that law to talk about transphobia, to talk about transviolence, to talk about the absolute just assault that we're seeing right now on trans rights and trans equality and the
[SPEAKER_00]: amount of trans people who don't want to be visible right now for a bunch of reasons that are deeply upsetting and are incredibly understandable and so in Pennsylvania it is a harder conversation to talk about what the name change process is and it's even harder now we have to talk to our 11 and 12 year olds and explain to them how laws work that's not their job they're 11 and 12 they should be busy throwing things they should be doing anything other than having to figure out
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then comparatively in New Jersey, which is just a really easy comparison.
[SPEAKER_00]: They changed their laws a few years ago to abolish the publication requirement.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now automatically, all name changes are sealed.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not accessible to the public.
[SPEAKER_00]: And at 10 times you can get it done without a hearing, though not always.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that is like one of the easy ways you make the process more accessible.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then there are other states that have even more requirements.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't
[SPEAKER_00]: And then a whole other aspect for both trans adults and trans kids is gender markers, which comes up a time as soon as we start talking about a birth certificate and who's listed on it also what information is listed, what terms are being used to describe the parents, what terms are being used, what gender marker you have listed for your child, and every single state has different requirements, every single state has different things that you need to update someone's birth certificate,
[SPEAKER_00]: They also don't make that easy to navigate every single state, even ones that technically have the same requirement will stay it in different ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: That that also is something where I say, talk to a lawyer, see if you can find a free consultation to ask about person to pick it up.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's another one where that's a hard conversation to have period, it's also a hard conversation to find an LGBT attorney that you can have that conversation with.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so everything is just it's a it's a constant conversation of what is legally accessible to you what not even in terms of money, but just what do we feel safe doing for ourselves and our kids and make sure you listen to your children what do they actually want if the answer is a name change let's learn about the name change process and if the answer is that they're.
[SPEAKER_00]: Testing something new out.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of times people will go through a few different names before they set on the one that they'd like to change to.
[SPEAKER_00]: Encourage that to support them and make sure that we're respecting who they are and how they're showing up and make sure you show up for them in the same way.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think something I also want to add because I think I just did a bunch of sad things all at once is something about the current administration that we are living through and the kind of
[SPEAKER_00]: It is very easy to get bogged down in misinformation.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are a ton of reasons to do so.
[SPEAKER_00]: Things look very scary and I think something else I want to tell everyone to do like the number one thing is just pay attention to the good news because there is a ton of good news.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are advances that happen in states constantly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Kind of to pivot back a little bit, but even in Pennsylvania, one of my favorite things to talk about last year was we actually had a fantastic Supreme Court case that established Intent-based parentage that said that you can become a legal parent by being an intended parent, which isn't something they can't before.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was crazy to be having these conversations where we're talking about the rights of your children, we're talking about marriage equality, we're talking about all the scary things that we see from the Trump administration and the Supreme Court.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then also to say, but at the state level, you have more protections than ever.
[SPEAKER_00]: At the state level, there's actually these really big advances and these really big headlines that just aren't as flashy as the federal ones.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the same thing goes for a bunch of states where the federal government right now is
[SPEAKER_00]: doing a lot of work to talk about the things it would like to do while states are also moving a bit more quietly to protect people in ways that are a bit more important in my opinion.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's also why I'm going to keep preaching talk to a lawyer, but also because we love getting to talk about good news there is good news.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's good to hear data things for children.
[SPEAKER_00]: The name change process is getting better.
[SPEAKER_00]: The process for updating gender markers and state documents can be easy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Things like that where I wish we could talk about it more, but it's hard to break through how heavy everything is.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's also is, and it's wonderful to hear that.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's wonderful to hear that, you know, we are moving steadily upward at a local level.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we are working to protect.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's great to hear that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also, when you have the president make a speech and bring up a trans woman and like talk, like Dylan Mulvaney, like the speech just made, just like, for what?
[SPEAKER_02]: Why?
[SPEAKER_02]: Why are you bringing her up?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, leave her alone.
[SPEAKER_02]: makes me fearful is all the people who hear that and are ready to go after Dylan and the Dylan's of the world, you know, like he's just that our federal government is just stoking fire, just stoking the flames, stoking the flames.
[SPEAKER_02]: It seems like they want people to get out in the streets and come after us, LGBTQIA plus people and that's what is so,
[SPEAKER_02]: scary when he they're on TV spouting lies misinformation and people don't do their research and it it's um it is it's scary I also want to talk about and we can we can't we could go on and on but we can't make this is three hour episode but I talk to numerous people recently who have left the country yeah
[SPEAKER_02]: because they were afraid and most they all have a trans family member and we're trying to protect themselves.
[SPEAKER_02]: What are your thoughts on that and do you think we're there?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like on a state level we're we're making protections, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So what are your thoughts there as from a law perspective?
[SPEAKER_02]: And I know you can't give advice.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is just yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have two things I want to start with.
[SPEAKER_00]: The first
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to just keep repeating that because really law is just another lens through which we can look at all of the complexities of the world and figure out what to do with them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the question of whether or not to stay or to go is just another thing where.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just a lens that we can talk about it through.
[SPEAKER_00]: There is no right or wrong answer because it because it always depends on you and your family and what decision makes you feel safest in a world of uncertainty.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes the best legal advice that I ever have is choose the option that you feel comfortable with because at the end of the day I'm not going to be with you in the decision that you make.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I want to make sure that you are comfortable with the choices that get made, whichever way that goes for anything that we talk about.
[SPEAKER_00]: For me personally, just like fully I'm to take my lawyer head off for a second.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think we are.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am in my own opinion.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am not planning on going anywhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm also lucky enough I live in Philadelphia.
[SPEAKER_00]: I live in a major city.
[SPEAKER_00]: I live in a relatively blue city with a really incredible support network that it would be harder for me to leave than it is harder for me to stay in a lot of ways and for a lot of people they don't have that same luck and so whether that's relocating within the US which makes me deeply sad the number of people who have moved for their trans kids for their queer loved ones to make sure that they're
[SPEAKER_00]: They are for example, maybe there's not a current travel advisory saying don't go to that state anymore and and making sure that their loved ones feel safe.
[SPEAKER_02]: Everybody's own decision and it is a sad reality that.
[SPEAKER_02]: some of us feel like we have to go right now, which, or some of us feel like we need to hide right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then it's up to the ones who don't have to hide, like myself, to speak up.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, it's, it's, it's our job to speak up right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not going to stop, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think in the same way, because I want to use that in the same way that no one should be shaming anyone for the ways in which they build a family.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do not shame anyone for the ways in which they choose to exist as a queer person right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are a million and one reasons to come out and a million and one reasons not to.
[SPEAKER_00]: There is, I, as much as it breaks my heart to talk to trans people whose number one priority right now is stealth, hide, stay safe.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is a decision they
[SPEAKER_00]: I could not express the admiration and respect and love that I have for them, but they are also someone who had top surgery a few years ago and still presents relatively feminine.
[SPEAKER_00]: They exist as a visibly trans person.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so for them, being out is the only that is the only way that they kind of want to move through the world as being really out and loud about who they are as a person.
[SPEAKER_00]: Neither of those people are wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: My fiance was just as valid in that decision, Ren is just as valid to exist the way they want to, as someone who would feel safer holding back and protecting themselves.
[SPEAKER_00]: Those are both correct answers.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, 100% and this Maya Agiloco just works in this instance when somebody tells you who they are, believe them.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it goes like, that can be used negatively and it can be used positively, but when it comes to LGBTQ trans people, trans people, like,
[SPEAKER_02]: When somebody tells you who they are, it is not yours, it is not yours to question, it is not yours to understand, it is yours to say, okay, hi, you know, like, okay, and let's move forth.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's who you are great.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's go.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, it's a scary world we're living in, but to your point, good things are happening.
[SPEAKER_02]: They may be happening quietly.
[SPEAKER_02]: but good things are happening for us and I think that that's a really great takeaway from this conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to be okay and we're everywhere.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you can't, you can't put us out.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you can say you want to take away marriage equality.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to figure something like we are everywhere
[SPEAKER_02]: We know how to fight.
[SPEAKER_00]: So watch out.
[SPEAKER_00]: And misinformation is a hell of a drug.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it is louder than the fact that in the same vein that I'm seeing, oh my god, because let's talk about the article on the avalanche of articles about marriage equality and is it going away?
[SPEAKER_00]: And me again, standing on my lawyer box with a little lawyer hat saying, that's not how marriage equality works.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's actually a complex framework across the country.
[SPEAKER_00]: Basically,
[SPEAKER_00]: There are so many pieces where I just want to say it is completely fair to feel scared.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is also fair to feel angry.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is also fair to feel excited and to feel like there is there is possibility because there is, there is a future for queer people, queer and trans people exist.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have always existed.
[SPEAKER_00]: We will always exist.
[SPEAKER_00]: Those things do not exist based on one person's decision about what something looks like right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just not.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it takes a lot of work to take away Mary's cloth.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd like, which we don't, we don't even got time for that's a whole other thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: But now, yeah, my favorite part of my job nowadays is my job looks extremely different now that it did pre-2024.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love how often I just get these questions of, and let's do a basic con law class.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I do not say that in any way to be patronizing, but just to say, the thing,
[SPEAKER_00]: that they want you to be afraid of, is so much harder to be afraid of than they want you to think it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so now we have to, and now I gotta talk about, now I gotta talk about the laws and I gotta figure out how to explain this for the average person that just like in 11 or 12 year old, this isn't your job.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and I don't want to know, I don't want to know, I just want to know, I'm safe.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like exactly, you know, but they want you to believe you're not, and that's the whole thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if there's one thing that that has happened and here's a positive spin that has happened with this whole regime, it's made our lives very interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's never a dull moment.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you could say that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, listeners, we had stopped recording, but I had to start recording again, because Rachel just threw down a bomb about this thing that is trying to be proposed this law.
[SPEAKER_02]: That will, because I was, I was bitching to Rachel about how annoying it is that everything is so different state to state.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I can't just have one lawyer come on and like talk all about all the state, like it's so different in every state, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: This proposed thing is this centering LGBTQ people are, no, like, what is it with them in mind?
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I'll have you do the whole thing, because they're in mind.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I would say that in mind, not centering them, but definitely more inclusive than the laws we've got right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: and then Rachel said, go for it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So one of the things that is an attempt to make the state laws a bit more similar to each other, it's called the UPA.
[SPEAKER_00]: It stands for I believe the Uniform Parentage Act.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it is a proposed law.
[SPEAKER_00]: is not technically a law in and of itself.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was drafted by a bunch of adoption and air tea attorneys.
[SPEAKER_00]: Essentially trying to create the model laws that we want them to look like what we would hope would be a solid standard of laws to have across states.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then they are proposing that as a law in all the different states.
[SPEAKER_00]: All states are also making their own changes to it, and so it's not going to be as uniform as we would hope, but also it does help to standardize the system a bit some states already adopted it, Pennsylvania has had it pending for a believe about a year and a half now, mostly because they're still considering some amendments to it, and it's one of those things where a lot of states already have laws about adoption and the RT a lot of states.
[SPEAKER_00]: don't.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so for adoption and RT attorneys, we are relying on case law, we are relying on what judges tell us or just our own guidance between attorneys.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's a way of trying to give a real standard for attorneys to work off of.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, hopefully that should help.
[SPEAKER_02]: That would be great.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it is with the it does include at least the LGBTQ people.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not centering them, but it does it's more interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's interesting because I did speak with a couple of families families in Louisiana.
[SPEAKER_02]: who to your point about the judges and the thing like this particular judge when they were trying to do their second parent adoptions wouldn't grant them the second parent adoptions because she deemed it unnecessary.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so so they were fighting
[SPEAKER_02]: Louisiana, whatever, to overturn that so that they could get the second parent adoptions.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, like to your point, like it's in the hands of these judges and if a judge thinks it's unnecessary and they think they're doing you a service with their not it's it would be much better to have the standard standardize what what is it called a LRT
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm like having like some kind of standardized law that every state at least make it look similar.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because otherwise now we're in back in a spot where people have to explain to what judge why the thing they're asking for is important, which again, that's not your job.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not your responsibility.
[SPEAKER_00]: You shouldn't have to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And unfortunately for LGBT people, we constantly have to.
[SPEAKER_02]: Rachel, this has been amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Where can people find you if they want to ask you questions or you know, where can they find you?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm an attorney at Turner Law Group.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you are not currently based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, we practice in Pennsylvania and New Jersey.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can always find them more information at journallaw.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: And something else that I will just hype up is our firm is also really proud to be a resource to the community at large.
[SPEAKER_00]: So something else is on our website, journal.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: We also have an LGBTQ resources hub.
[SPEAKER_00]: We post information there, the current documents that are up there.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have an informational guide that we make for the LGBT community at large.
[SPEAKER_00]: that talks about a lot of the things I just rambled about, but a lot of the things we can do to protect ourselves, protect our family, and the legal steps we can take.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the other is for all of our trans friends and trans loved ones, a copy of the actual guide I gave to my own name change clients about for a trans person, how do you start updating documents after a name change?
[SPEAKER_00]: Another process that is
[SPEAKER_00]: Not straightforward.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not easy to Google.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we we post information there.
[SPEAKER_00]: We also have an email list that sends out information about like the big headlines as they come up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mostly to try to talk about how they're not so scary.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so please feel free to check out our information.
[SPEAKER_00]: We always post blog posts and more information when we can.
[SPEAKER_02]: Love that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that'll be in the show notes.
[SPEAKER_02]: So people can just click it and reach out to Rachel if you have questions like a very fun and not scary lawyers aren't scary.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've just learned this has been really awesome Rachel.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much and keep doing the work you're doing.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very important.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_02]: This was fantastic.
[SPEAKER_02]: Whew, well folks, I hope you enjoyed that episode as much as I enjoyed it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you did enjoy it, feel free to listen to another or watch another.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have so many episodes for your listening or viewing pleasure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just go pick one and enjoy.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're really nice.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also, if you really do like this show, please, I know I say it all the time, but please do consider supporting the show on Patreon.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're just gonna go to patreon.com slash the queer family podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're gonna pick a tear, you're gonna join, and you're gonna get that bonus content.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you're also gonna get my love and adoration for the rest of my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love you all, thanks for tuning in, keep on tuning in, and I'll see you next time.