[SPEAKER_01]: Um, tell me anything while I eat my lunch.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, um, we had a show today and then a fire alarm came on and we had to evacuate.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we couldn't finish the fucking show, which was crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I haven't seen people that buy tickets.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is the age-old question.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's such a, it's a little bit of a conundrum right now because I think we believe we like did 20 minutes of the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: They should get their money back, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the move.
[SPEAKER_00]: They should get their money back.
[SPEAKER_00]: The question is though for us is like, does that mean that we just worked and get no money?
[SPEAKER_00]: When it wasn't our fault?
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like, it's, you know, we don't know what's gonna happen, but everybody was so nice I met this woman who was like,
[SPEAKER_00]: Lord of the Rings is my favorite book.
[SPEAKER_00]: You were sold out last year so he came today and of course like there were all these like really lovely people that were like we tried to see your show.
[SPEAKER_00]: We couldn't and now we're here and it's getting canceled.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's was very sad emotional.
[SPEAKER_00]: My yeah I've got it's been so I'm an Edinburgh right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am staring at downpour out my window and I love it here.
[SPEAKER_00]: So much.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm absolutely knackered.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm exhausted Tired.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm working full-time.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm doing this job.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm acting in a show every day at three o'clock But like there's nothing like this festival And it makes me so happy and I'm seeing all these people who I know and it's just like I do feel like there's a sense of me that feels like I'm back at home In some ways
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just like, it's, and I'm loving all the people I'm working with.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, they're just the best people.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the only thing that sucks is like, my internet is not great.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if I break out, that's why.
[SPEAKER_00]: And additionally, I'm just like tired because I'm burning the candle at three different ends.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm like, I hear you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll sleep when I'm dead.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, the way I'm good way to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: Get a little more down on you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a lot of time management.
[SPEAKER_00]: How are you?
[SPEAKER_00]: What's going on through?
[SPEAKER_01]: I haven't talked to you in weeks weeks so many things I can't even update you forget it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Goodbye
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, thank you so much to sweet.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, this story is I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's been a lot going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: I Oh, we had like you know what one story will frame a lot of what's been going on, which is like the perfect tail
[SPEAKER_01]: We're someone wrote into one of the companies I work for and wanted an immersive and that company couldn't do it so I gave them a bunch of suggestions including another company I work for.
[SPEAKER_01]: And companies that I don't work for and they got back to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: through a different company.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they basically wanted this epic immersive thing to happen in a very short amount of time, like five days from when they were hiring.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in my head, I thought, I can't do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so much work.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would be staying up late.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would be rewriting.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would be ordering a bunch of things.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would be hiring.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just going to quote them a really big number.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and then they said yes, so that I was like, okay, and they came back and we're like, they were like very Frank about like we have all these calls with different people.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're deciding between a few different things.
[SPEAKER_01]: then they come back and they're like, it's you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, great.
[SPEAKER_01]: So then I hire actors.
[SPEAKER_01]: I get their rates locked in.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do some rewrites that take like seven hours.
[SPEAKER_01]: I order a bunch of things.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm reorganizing and then it took me a minute to realize that after hiring us, they then ghosted.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's that feeling where I knew the company, I knew the woman's name, I knew the event.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was like impossible for me to imagine in some ways that someone this high up in a company like that would do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I kept being like, I don't want to be an asshole because maybe there's something going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Something happening with this person, even.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like a personal thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was very careful.
[SPEAKER_01]: They hired us on a Thursday for an event.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was supposed to be happening today.
[SPEAKER_00]: Less than a week.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's my answer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thursday, and I worked my answer Friday, and it wasn't until Friday started to be the end of the day that I was like, weird.
[SPEAKER_01]: I asked these questions and haven't heard back.
[SPEAKER_01]: So then I was like, hey.
[SPEAKER_01]: what's going on and then still nothing and then called didn't get anyone and then wrote over the weekend and was like, hey, not sure what's going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, you hired us for this event.
[SPEAKER_01]: Actors have been booked.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're holding the date.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you want this event to still happen, I really need you to get back to me by Monday.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then nothing on Monday and then had to write them on Monday and be like, we're canceling your event.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've like canceled the invoice.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've canceled the actors.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then guess when she wrote back, last night at 6 p.m. for an event that was supposed to happen at noon today.
[SPEAKER_01]: At 6 p.m. She wrote and she wrote,
[SPEAKER_01]: something like when I'll tell you what you're out.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna tell you what you're out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hope you're doing well, so sorry for the delay here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for all your help with this, especially given the last minute nature of everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: We really appreciate you being so responsive and flexible.
[SPEAKER_01]: We ended up having to make a few changes to the agenda and pivot some of our plans.
[SPEAKER_01]: So unfortunately, we won't need services for this event, but we really appreciate all your help and willingness to work with us on such short notice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, absolutely keep you in mind and reach back out for future events.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is all I can do to not write back, lose something crazy.
[SPEAKER_02]: lose my number.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, that was just it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I kind of want to give you something more poetic that was about the ripple effect of what happens where I'm like, people like you get in a bind.
[SPEAKER_01]: People like me try to help them on short notice.
[SPEAKER_01]: What if you have effectively done is created like this well of distrust?
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, and now you're gonna have to be like, I want to do anyone to hire me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I
[SPEAKER_00]: to pay an invoice right this minute or I'm not working for a second and it's not like a good atmosphere to be a part of creating.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, that's so I think what I would do is put them on a black list and then charge them double what you did including 50% up front before any work is done.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you need like, you need, you need, you need, you need 72 hours before the event or else it won't happen or whatever it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's just thought that was, that was, that's so fucking annoying Quinn.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's really bad, shady, shady shit, shady shit.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, feeling like it's not there like money.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're representing also another company.
[SPEAKER_01]: So to me, like, you're representing a company, like, I think about that all the time of like, who you're never alone.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're always representing someone or something.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you have to,
[SPEAKER_01]: I've also just like keep going back to this feeling of like, I was late for an appointment this, uh, just this morning.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's story in my life.
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't even this appointment to meet you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and I.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just like kept writing, you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: I kept letting them know, like the trains are being weird.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is my situation now.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just like find the overcommunication is less risky than under.
[SPEAKER_01]: And being an adult is letting people is realizing that everyone is walking around carrying a million places.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, this person was using their company's card to a small business and like, to understand the amount of people.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think you could, I mean, it depends on if you want to burn the bridge or you can even be like, Hey, like, thanks for letting me know I would have really appreciated hearing what this earlier because,
[SPEAKER_00]: I had booked like like there's there's been like 10 people engaged because once you because I really did want to help you out.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's really unfortunate that this didn't work out and the late notice because that that's affected a lot of people's time and energy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, please do keep us in mind.
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope that you know, I mean, I mean, whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got feeling where I'm like, I don't want to be in mind.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't let you out of my head.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do not ever want to meet you out of mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is how you treat me when you're, you know, this is like, how would you treat us if we were working for you not well.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am so amazed and there's so many good things and I'm so busy and I'm so glad we're able to connect and record this podcast because it genuinely feels like a miracle that we have time that is aligned that we can record.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a genuinely feels like a miracle.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I'm recording this, it's six o'clock my time.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is one o'clock where Quinn is my internet is terrible.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I have a show at 930 tonight.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like, let's record a couple episodes while we can and call it a day.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do we have any Patreon?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: We should thank them.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me find them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, oh.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, the other thing I want to say, this is really important to mention a myth like saying how horrible everybody is that mad dog 89 we saw your message about like what how you feel about our podcast and what it does for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have to tell you that
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't know how it doesn't like make our day.
[SPEAKER_01]: It makes our week, maybe our months.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't tell you how many times I read it, like a creepy eighth grader going back to be like, this boy likes me.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you write us reviews like that, it is this feeling in me where every time I think I'm too busy, life is too hectic.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the thing that has to go.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then somebody sends a message like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It truly feels impossible to stop.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I just wanted to shout you out Mad Dog 89 and Mad Dog why does anybody know somebody's name?
[SPEAKER_00]: The tune is I do want to talk to I want to talk to Mad Dog really fast because Mad Dog wrote the sweetest review and Quinn said it to me and I said is this about us?
[SPEAKER_00]: It was like, yes, that's how nice it was.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how nice it was.
[SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't have found it really like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And how weird would it have been?
[SPEAKER_01]: How weird would it have been if I sat you that and it wasn't about us?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, really funny.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't put it past you though, to be fair.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, ready?
[SPEAKER_01]: Back in.
[SPEAKER_01]: BCKEN.
[SPEAKER_01]: Back in.
[SPEAKER_00]: Back in the heat, to tell us what the heck is.
[SPEAKER_00]: We are freaking hanging with back in, you are such a freaking cool kid.
[SPEAKER_00]: Back in you over here to hang out with us and party.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'd love to see you back in over here, party, party, party.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, all right.
[SPEAKER_01]: We do improv for a living.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you believe that?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's so embarrassing.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's to be, you know, I did just have some stage time.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I feel a little bit, you know, we're maxed, babe.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're maxed.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here you go.
[SPEAKER_02]: We are close.
[SPEAKER_00]: We are close.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no, no, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's something, like, I think it's something.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's, I think it's not something, it's not something.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not something, by the way, you're listening to truly say, like, it's fun, it's time to stop, uh, darkly creepily.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's, let's get on with the show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Come on, we don't have time for this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's hear from our sponsors.
[SPEAKER_00]: By the way, thanks for writing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you hear a sponsor that you think is not, we shouldn't be,
[SPEAKER_00]: doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you hear a sponsor on our ad break when you're like, that's not what these gals are about.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you call this gals, I'll allow it.
[SPEAKER_00]: That being said, if there's a weird sponsor contact us and be like, why the hell is that person on there?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because sometimes we don't know what's being said.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't like some of the things that I find out that they're saying.
[SPEAKER_00]: So just let us know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I got a long one so you can tell a shorty if you want.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, let's you can just do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I got this information from Vanity Fair Vanity Fair.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I'm going to tell this story and it's a long one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, here we go.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is December 11th, 1981.
[SPEAKER_00]: Margie Palm is 30 years old.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's based in San Antonio, Texas, and it's around Christmas, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So she's like, I'm gonna go run to Kmart and get some gifts.
[SPEAKER_00]: A little thing about our girl Margie.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's blonde, she's pretty, she's fit.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is according to Vanity Fair.
[SPEAKER_00]: She also has,
[SPEAKER_00]: been to a debutant ball, so I'm like painting the picture of who this kind of gall is.
[SPEAKER_00]: Apparently she like competed in beauty pageants in her early 20s and won a couple or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: But at this point, she's in her 30s, she has two kids, she's in San Antonio, like I said.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she's like, I'm going to go run to Kmart and get some gifts for Christmas shopping for my two kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she ends up not going to the Kmart that she usually goes to, so she does like kind of on a
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's around two o'clock in the afternoon and she's walking back from the store with the gifts to her Chevy suburban in a parking lot and a guy approaches her pulls out a gun and she just freezes or no, yeah, she freezes.
[SPEAKER_00]: She doesn't fight.
[SPEAKER_00]: She doesn't flee.
[SPEAKER_00]: She says, I've never felt that kind of fear.
[SPEAKER_00]: He shoves her in her car and he threatens to kill her.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he says, and I quote, what's one more damn dead bitch at this point?
[SPEAKER_00]: Not a good situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's in the car.
[SPEAKER_00]: He drives off.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's driving north out of San Antonio.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the two of them are in a car for a long time.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are helicopters circling at this point, and I'll let you know, well, I guess I'll tell you now, there are helicopters circling at this point, and she doesn't know who she's in the car with, but we will find out that she's in the car with 30-year-old Steven Moran.
[SPEAKER_00]: Steven Moran is someone that's been on the police watch and a wanted list for a very, very long time.
[SPEAKER_00]: He went to a parking lot and he tried to lure 21-year-old Carrie Marie Scott into his car at the eatery parking lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: Her friend shows up, he freaks out.
[SPEAKER_00]: He shoots both women.
[SPEAKER_00]: He kills Carrie and he takes off.
[SPEAKER_00]: A witness takes his license plate, they track him to a hotel.
[SPEAKER_00]: The police go to the hotel that he is staying at, and he is not there alone.
[SPEAKER_00]: He is actually holding another woman named Pamela Jackson hostage.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, this guy has the rap sheet.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's getting crammed longer.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's it's a big old rap sheet.
[SPEAKER_00]: He sees Okay, there he sees so he's going out Pamela's in there.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's just shot and killed a woman He's injured the other woman, but for all he knows he could have just killed two women and
[SPEAKER_00]: He returns to his hotel, the police are there.
[SPEAKER_00]: He goes and gets a Coca-Cola from the vending machine.
[SPEAKER_00]: He sees the police coming.
[SPEAKER_00]: He goes back in his room.
[SPEAKER_00]: He then sneaks out of the window out of the bathroom and he flees the scene.
[SPEAKER_00]: By the time the police break in with the whole SWAT team, he's gone but they're able to rescue Pamela Jackson.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Pamela Jackson is taken into custody and she has had a horrible ordeal.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's been tortured.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's been abused.
[SPEAKER_00]: You will come to find out that this man has been abusing, hurting, murdering women for years.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's suspected for murder, torture, and in some cases rape of more than 30 women in 9 or 10 states.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's operating at the same time as Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy, and he's known to be very charismatic, and they start to call him the chameleon, because he's changes so frequently, and can slip around really easily.
[SPEAKER_00]: Later, they'll interview him, and they'll say that he's charming.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's friendly.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's a very interesting conversationalist, but he probably has anti-social personality disorder.
[SPEAKER_00]: A little bit about him is when he was younger, he was in and out of the juvenile detention center.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was placed at a state-run Florida school for boys, which this school is known for its horrific conditions.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he, in this school, boys were known to be chained to the walls.
[SPEAKER_00]: They were beaten.
[SPEAKER_00]: They were abused.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some kids died in this school specifically in 2013.
[SPEAKER_00]: They looked at the grounds and they found 55 graves on the property.
[SPEAKER_00]: Stephen Moran will make allegations of abuse during his time as a child in his home and also at the school.
[SPEAKER_00]: He started stealing cars.
[SPEAKER_00]: The crimes just got progressively worse and worse and worse and worse.
[SPEAKER_00]: And his crimes were incredibly disturbing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm offering a trigger warning in this moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: He lured his 14-year-old sister's friend to his apartment, so this young woman was 14 years old under the guise that his sister needed help.
[SPEAKER_00]: This young woman shows up and he holds her hostage for six hours and he abuses and tortures her for six hours while the TV is on.
[SPEAKER_00]: This article does interview her.
[SPEAKER_00]: Her name is not released.
[SPEAKER_00]: This woman in this article is grown and she spoke anonymously in this vanity fair article and she says that she wished for death like while she was being tortured She like hoped that she could just catapult herself out of the window so that she could get some Some peace or die in a peaceful way a more compassionate way, you know, she recalls in that moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: She looked at him and she said
[SPEAKER_00]: You just need somebody to care about you.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're just hurt.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's why he let me live because I showed him compassion She was freed, but of course as much as she's freed from that initial torture That trauma followed her for the rest of her life and she did Go on to abuse drugs and the trauma affected her life in a myriad of ways
[SPEAKER_00]: he would go on and continue just these horrific crimes.
[SPEAKER_00]: He ended up finding a woman to marry.
[SPEAKER_00]: He had kids and then he would
[SPEAKER_00]: find a victim, abuse them, and leave town.
[SPEAKER_00]: He would find attractive women in their teens in their 20s.
[SPEAKER_00]: He tied them up, torture them, kill them.
[SPEAKER_00]: He then steal their car, IDs, and things.
[SPEAKER_00]: And by the time the victim was found, he was in a new place with a new alias.
[SPEAKER_00]: He had lured one woman and he met her friends.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: He then kills this woman and then actually remet her friend but was under a different disguise and her friend did not recognize that she had already met this man.
[SPEAKER_00]: He just, like, so this is a very, very dangerous man.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we have Margie, who is in 1981, she is in a car with him, traveling for hours.
[SPEAKER_00]: She does not know who this man is.
[SPEAKER_00]: She doesn't know yet that the helicopters and the police are looking for him, because obviously he's killed a woman earlier that morning.
[SPEAKER_00]: She just in the car with him.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's high on infedemines, and when she's afraid, it's turning him on.
[SPEAKER_00]: He tells her that if the police find them, that they're both going to die in a shootout.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it wouldn't benefit her to help get the police.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was like he's just diminishing any hope of her getting outside help.
[SPEAKER_00]: They've been driving at this point for six hours, and he's like, I need music.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he starts to look for cassettes in her backseat, and he sees that she has all these presence for her kids, and he starts talking about how he never got gifts like that as a child, and he started to call her a sheltered princess, and he said, animals were treated better than he was, and Margie replied with, I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_00]: She recalls closing her eyes and she's a very religious person, and she decides that this chapter is not her enemy and that God put her in the car to do something.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so she decided to not be afraid of him and to stop hating him.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so then she starts praying for him out loud and he says, oh my God, I'm in the car with a religious freak.
[SPEAKER_00]: He thought she's trying to trick him, but then he starts looking through her stuff and he finds this black book which is a book of handwritten scripture that she had copied down and then he starts looking at cassette tapes to play something and he notices their all praise songs or televangelist speeches.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, whoa, you really are a fanatic.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then she decided in that moment to do something she'd never done before, which she moved her hands.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he told her to sit on her hands or keep her hands in her lap, but she takes her hands and she puts them on his forehead while they're driving and she attempts to cast out the evil.
[SPEAKER_00]: She says,
[SPEAKER_00]: evil spirits go now you will not just keep destroying his life and destroying mine.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now leave this car.
[SPEAKER_00]: The context of this has its presented is that this was an interesting tactic because it's separated him from his actions, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was like the evil that he was doing was not attached to his person.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so at this point his tune changes.
[SPEAKER_00]: He says, I don't want
[SPEAKER_00]: The two of them start talking, and he finds one cassette that he's willing to listen to, and it's called Ride Like The Wind, and he's like, great, you got my favorite song, and he starts singing along, and the lyrics are, it is the night, my body's weak, I'm on the run, no time to sleep.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've got to ride Ride Like The Wind to be free again.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was born the son of a lawless man, always spoke my mind with a gun in my hand, lived nine lives, gunned down ten, gunna ride like the wind.
[SPEAKER_00]: Margie recalls looking at him and seeing that his demeanor changes and that this song is really moving him in some way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, she doesn't know what he's in for how dangerous this man is, and eventually he has to get gas or he wants beer, cigarettes, and a newspaper, so he pulls into a seven eleven, she gets out and she has no idea, but she walks in and she grabs the beer.
[SPEAKER_00]: and she goes to pay for it along with the cigarettes and a newspaper and she sees the headline that it's like a man hunt is underway for this man and she runs cold.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's like, oh god, like the reality that this is someone who's already killed someone today.
[SPEAKER_00]: Her life is even more in danger and she walks into the store and just another young woman working at the 7-11 and she's like, I can't, he's watching me, I can't ask for help because he'll kill her too.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she's like, it's not just my life, it's this woman too.
[SPEAKER_00]: She goes back outside, he then forces her into a phone booth to call her husband.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she tells him everything is fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: She does ask him to handle the kids like evening, bedtime, bath, whatever, dinner, bedtime, bath.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in this article, he was like, her husband was like, yeah, she actually has never asked me the handle a bedtime routine.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I just chalked it up to pre-Christmas jitters.
[SPEAKER_00]: It made me feel a little rageful, moving on.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then he's watching TV and then news comes on.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's a man hunt and he's like, my wife isn't here.
[SPEAKER_00]: She always puts the kids down.
[SPEAKER_00]: She called me, asked me to handle things.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, maybe I should call the police.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he starts to call the police.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, I don't know, my wife is missing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm worried that this is what's happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: Meanwhile, Stephen Morin, his demeanor changes and he starts apologizing to Margie for cursing in front of her and he starts sharing more details about his life.
[SPEAKER_00]: He tells Margie that he hates himself and that he's a fraud and that he's been married and that he has a son that he loves, but he abandoned.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Margie asks him, if your son committed the kind of crimes you did, do you think you could forgive him?
[SPEAKER_00]: His response is, lady, you've been preaching to me all day long and I now understand what you're saying.
[SPEAKER_00]: The report seems to calm down and Margie ends up closing her eyes and taking a nap.
[SPEAKER_00]: She wakes up to him pulling over the side of the road, and he gets out and he puts his hands in the air, and he says, I'm sorry, Lord, for everything I've done, please forgive me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to go to heaven.
[SPEAKER_00]: He goes to a rest-stop.
[SPEAKER_00]: He opens his gun.
[SPEAKER_00]: He pours the bullets into Margie's purse, and he tells her I'll never kill again.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, editors note, to be clear, they were not his only bullets.
[SPEAKER_00]: When the police arrested him, eventually,
[SPEAKER_00]: He will have 11 backups in his pocket as well as a bag of speed and sedatives, but he goes on to tell her his plan where he's going to go dramatically, but sim ball, he just forgot about those bullets.
[SPEAKER_00]: He decides he wants to go to Fort Worth to a televangelist's home and he wants to lay his gun on his desk and admit and be a born-again Christian.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she's like, okay, we can make that happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she's like, we ended up going towards this bus stop that I didn't know was there, but intuitively, I just knew, and when we get to the bus stop, I take out $300 in cash, and I buy him a ticket to Fort Worth connecting through Austin.
[SPEAKER_00]: More in hugs, Margie, kisses her on the cheek.
[SPEAKER_00]: She gives him her notebook of handwritten scripture, and she tells him to use that instead of weapons.
[SPEAKER_00]: He gives her an earring with a cross and a green stone.
[SPEAKER_00]: Margie then gets into a car, Margie then gets back in her car, locks the doors immediately, and she waves goodbye to Stephen Moran, who is on the bus, and she says it looked like he was going off to camp.
[SPEAKER_00]: He had a big smile and was waving at her.
[SPEAKER_00]: She pulls out of the parking lot out of the bus stop and she just bursts into tears.
[SPEAKER_00]: She, the relief and the, she just had this intimate car ride with someone who's seeming as she was able to change the courts of the, I don't even know what relief she would have felt.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it has to be just an insane feeling, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: She ends up driving home and she pulls in as the police are pulling into her house.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she gets out and she just crumbles and she's like, I need a drink.
[SPEAKER_00]: So her husband makes her a martini.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's in the backseat of a police car and they take her to the station so that she can give her statement and all this information.
[SPEAKER_00]: While she's there, she's given all this information about who he is and she's shown crime, seen footage of what he's capable of.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she's like, oh my God, I cannot believe I was in the car with this man.
[SPEAKER_00]: Also those earring that earring with a cross in a green stone, he gave her.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, apparently he also gave those earrings to women he murdered.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this was like, hey, at the police, she's telling them the series of events.
[SPEAKER_00]: And initially, she's like, yeah, I ran into him at Kmart.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then he left.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like, that doesn't seem to be adding up.
[SPEAKER_00]: You were gone for hours.
[SPEAKER_00]: She internally was just worried because she didn't know what he was capable of, that now she knew what he was capable of.
[SPEAKER_00]: She did not want him to come back and hurt her family.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was like, I'm protecting my family.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want him to know.
[SPEAKER_00]: He knows where I live, or I don't know if he does, but I'm sure he took her idea or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: She ends up going home and she tells her husband, I know where he's gonna be.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's gonna be at the bus stop in Austin.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, you have to tell the police because if he murders again, which he might, you could have stopped him.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so she tells the police and the police who've been investigating him after he's escaped their grasp multiple times.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, he's too smart.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no way he's gonna be at this stop.
[SPEAKER_00]: He'll get off earlier, blah, blah, blah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, sure enough, the police show up.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there he was.
[SPEAKER_00]: He did not resist arrest at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was arrested December 12, 1981.
[SPEAKER_00]: Margie's story became really well-known, obviously because she's survived this serial killer, and people kept trying to get her story to sell it, and she refused them all.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a big talk show, it's tried to get her on there, she refused, first capital murder trial was of Carrie Marie Scott, which is the murder the morning of his abduction of Margie Palm.
[SPEAKER_00]: And as soon as the indictment was read, he yelled before the jury and before God, I plead guilty.
[SPEAKER_00]: The only plea bargaining I've done your honor is with my Lord.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he would go on to plead guilty to that case.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think in the sentencing or how that case unfolded with other murder charges, his defense tried to paint him as a born again Christian.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was found guilty because ultimately the jury decided that they would accept that he was a born again Christian but they didn't go along with it to the point where they felt like he wouldn't kill again.
[SPEAKER_00]: Keep this guy in jail.
[SPEAKER_00]: His case was fast tracked which I will say he was arrested in December of 1981.
[SPEAKER_00]: His trial was April 1982.
[SPEAKER_00]: He ended up getting sentenced to death, it's in Texas, and he wrote to the judge and asked him to set an execution date.
[SPEAKER_00]: He said, Christians are not afraid to die.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have been prepared to meet my maker from the time I was blessed enough to meet Mrs. Paul.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was extradited then to Colorado for additional trials.
[SPEAKER_00]: While he was in jail there, he called Margey, and they would go on to have
[SPEAKER_00]: Pretty frequent correspondence.
[SPEAKER_00]: He would call and her husband would pick up and he'd be like Margie.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's from another prison where this guy is at.
[SPEAKER_00]: He sent Margie Christmas letters.
[SPEAKER_00]: He felt really close to her.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then he also started calling her mom and her sister for regular check-ins.
[SPEAKER_00]: Margie would visit him in prison 15 times, once his execution date.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think he, because he was found guilty in Colorado, and so he had three death penalties levied against him.
[SPEAKER_00]: The day before he was executed in March of 1985, he wanted her there during the execution, and she said, no, I'm going to be with my husband, but I'll come see you the day before.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he was smiling and really happy, and he was like, he was his last day of high school.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was how they explained it.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was just excited to go.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she reflects, she became friends with a serial killer.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she said, I really did become friends with that guy.
[SPEAKER_00]: on his way to be executed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's wild isn't it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Isn't that crazy?
[SPEAKER_00]: March 13th, 1985.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was 34 years old.
[SPEAKER_00]: On the walk to his execution, he was cracking jokes.
[SPEAKER_00]: He said, anyone want to go fishing instead.
[SPEAKER_00]: While he was strapped to the gurney, technicians struggled for 40 minutes to find a vein because of years of drug use.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was finally inserted at 12.44 a.m. And he was given
[SPEAKER_00]: a lethal injection and his final words were, Lord Jesus, I commit my soul to you, I praise you and I thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's some doubt whether he was really born again, you know, at one point during his trial in Colorado, they found razor blades in his heels and at one point he had told Margie, I strayed, it was Colorado that made me strayed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Victims, obviously, like the effects of what he did, which were so horrific, like just disgusting what he did.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, doubt that he was born again.
[SPEAKER_00]: The 14-year-old that he tortured, she actually was a witness at his first trial, and she recalls that when he got the death sentence, she started crying because she thought that she had a hand in killing him.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that moved me, because that felt really jarring to me, because these victims are survivors.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like not only is this the burden of the trauma that he put them through, but even in testifying against him and getting justice, they feel ownership that they're a part of the end of his life and how traumatizing that is for them.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we talk a lot about closure in these cases and how everybody deserves it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And while that's totally true, it also overlooks a theme that is the retraumatization of anyone that has to face someone that harmed them in court.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you think of it very easily with children when you say, say a child is sexually abused by somebody and then they have to go to court and face their abuser and we instinctively go, oh my God, that's awful.
[SPEAKER_01]: this kid having to say anything about what happened again or see them or any of that stuff and it's like it's similar though for any case having to go back and relive those events and whether or not you have to relive them having to having to against your will.
[SPEAKER_01]: play a role in the justice system.
[SPEAKER_01]: In this case, the idea that she would blame herself for someone that hurt her getting the death penalty or serving time, it's like, it's on a loop where the harm we do is so much more than meets the eye.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think in these moments too, I was reflecting on just, yes, this young woman was able to, was let, he set her free, and I'm glad she got free, but again, like the trauma that she endured with last a lifetime, like she was freed from that, those, those six hours of torture that he inflicted upon her, and the pain and the trauma lives on for years.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he was talking about how, like, is the circus?
[SPEAKER_01]: She wants the purse.
[SPEAKER_00]: Kind of the first.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was talking about what she thought was so interesting was that, like, some people don't need to talk about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think, like, Quinn and I, I would say that are similar where it's like, if something happens, we need to talk about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of, I don't know how you, maybe I should speak for myself.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm someone who's like, if something happens, I want to talk about it, I want to process it and things like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he was saying that, like, in most cases, if something traumatizing happened, like a bank robbery,
[SPEAKER_00]: If everybody was forced to talk about it, maybe 50% of the people wouldn't help.
[SPEAKER_00]: It would maybe reopen, it would maybe hurt.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think like, it's not a one size fits all thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that, you know, talking about, you know, so again, like,
[SPEAKER_00]: someone could find it therapeutic to find closure in that way and testify and make sure that this guy is dead.
[SPEAKER_00]: And some of his other victims are retraumatized by it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think how brave this woman is to come back and testify against him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Truly, so brave.
[SPEAKER_00]: some believe that some of Ted Bundy's victims might be more of Stephen Moore's victims.
[SPEAKER_00]: Margie will talk later in this article because she really didn't speak publicly about this until this vanity fair article and she was like just figuring out what the
[SPEAKER_00]: her path forward is and how to discuss it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the things that she noted which I thought was interesting was she was like I wish I had the knowledge of therapy when I was talking to him because I would have urged him to admit to all of the cases to give closure to all of the families.
[SPEAKER_00]: And of course she regrets that which again it's like all these women that he's hurt
[SPEAKER_00]: of the guilt at the trauma of all of this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the responsibility of that margin felt, I'm sure it's in what some way survivors guilt of.
[SPEAKER_00]: I should have encouraged him to admit to more of what he did and help more.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think in this moment, she was responsible for his capture, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think,
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, we've talked about in so many cases of survival in this capacity.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's what works for one, so much of it is luck in where you are, you know, there's a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: He has suspected of more murders than bunny or dumber, wherever convicted of.
[SPEAKER_00]: Margie, Margie will later talk about two of how in a lot of these true crime Capacity is that you know the person at the center of it is the perpetrator and she was like I didn't want to give my story To so that everybody can talk about this guy, you know, and so I think it's important to Center on the survivors and center on Margie Palm who truly
[SPEAKER_00]: survived in a way that she used compassion and conversation to help free herself and to get out of there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I want to highlight some of the names of his victims because I think it's important to note that, you know,
[SPEAKER_00]: I only named two of the victims, but he had a very very long list, and their names are 22-year-old Sheila Griffith.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was murdered.
[SPEAKER_00]: 18-year-old Susan Belot murdered, 19-year-old Cheryl Daniel murdered, 23-year-old Sheila Whalen.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was murdered 23-year-old Pamela Jackson survived, but again, was horribly traumatized.
[SPEAKER_00]: 21-year-old Janet Bruce murdered.
[SPEAKER_00]: 29-year-old Michael Reed and 26-year-old Pearl Lutz.
[SPEAKER_00]: They both were shot, but they both survived.
[SPEAKER_00]: 21-year-old Carrie Marie Scott, who was murdered, and then her friend drew Valdez who survived.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was investigated for 48 murders, and in Nevada he was tested for eight murders.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we don't know the full extent because he is gone, but the trauma left in the wake of this person is very big.
[SPEAKER_00]: But Margie Palm, incredibly brave individual, who didn't work to miracle.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for sharing that story.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm here with a ghost story for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's get into it.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's nice.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the Hammer Smith Ghost Murder Case.
[SPEAKER_01]: So.
[SPEAKER_01]: I read a bunch of different blogs on this and some Wikipedia, I think the most helpful blog was by a woman named Kelly Buchanan, so I'll shout her out for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Hammer Smith is a little village, it is outside London, and we're talking 1800s, baby, 1803, and this town.
[SPEAKER_01]: has had it up to here with the ghost, the hammer Smith ghost.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everybody it's Christmas time and people are like this dang ghost, something in a white ass shroud is showing up left and right, it's sometimes attacking us, it's mostly just scaring the poop out of us, and it feels like it always happens when the church bell has struck us.
[SPEAKER_01]: In the night, at 1 a.m. Bung, and here comes Hammer Smith.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's hammer time, and he shows up.
[SPEAKER_01]: So people are talking.
[SPEAKER_01]: People all through the town.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, you see this thing?
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're like, heck, yeah, and somebody's like, I heard there were two women.
[SPEAKER_01]: One was old, and one pregnant.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it scared the bjangles out of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were in the churchyard.
[SPEAKER_01]: They saw this thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It scared them so bad they died from shock a few days later.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sounds like a rumor sounds like a legend, but I did read it a couple times, so it's definitely a legend that was circulating.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then I read about this guy Thomas Grume, who they said was a brewer's servant.
[SPEAKER_01]: I imagine that's a bar back, wouldn't you say?
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, so this barback Thomas was like, look, I was walking through that church right around nine o'clock, and something done rose out of the ground by one of the graves, and grabbed me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was with somebody, and there was a full on scuffle that happened between me and the ghost.
[SPEAKER_01]: My buddy turns around by the time he turns around, there's nothing there, and I reach out my hand.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I felt somebody's coat, but there was nobody there.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm telling you, this hammer smith ghost is for real.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's December 29th, and William Gurdler, who has...
[SPEAKER_01]: William Gerdler.
[SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like he's related to the ham burglar.
[SPEAKER_01]: He sees the ghost when he's on beaver lane and chases it.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's a night watchman.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like that is kind of his job.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's not just a wild guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: He runs after him.
[SPEAKER_01]: and the white cape thing that the ghost is wearing fully gets ditched by the ghost.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're like, what?
[SPEAKER_01]: He just throws it to the ground, runs off and escapes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, there's no police force at the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's people like Nightwatchman's.
[SPEAKER_01]: And a bunch of citizens will just get together and be like, let's do a nightwatch, let's do a neighborhood watch, whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of police forces organized by the people, and they're saying it's time for us to get organized because we got to capture this ghost.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, here we are, we're at the end of 1803 and a bunch of people have been talking about the ghost saying we think that it could be the spirit of somebody that committed suicide because we all know suicide is a sin at the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we've got to find the ghost and talk some sense
[SPEAKER_01]: On December 29th, there's a watchman with his friend, Francis Smith.
[SPEAKER_00]: They have a shotgun.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as I told you, they, what's going to do with a ghost?
[SPEAKER_01]: Scared it, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Kill it twice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you know what?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's dead.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, yes, but like I said, they saw something run and lose the white shroud.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it feels like
[SPEAKER_01]: something's happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're scaring it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, they're hanging out and Francis Smith says to William, I'm going to go look for the ghost and William's like, yeah, yeah, I'm going to come with you and let's try to capture it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, we've got this shotgun, but let's go, so these two men,
[SPEAKER_01]: William and Francis are interested in pursuing this charge of finding this ghost.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go forward a few days into 1804.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's January 3rd.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thomas Millwood is a bricklayer.
[SPEAKER_01]: And bricklayers wear
[SPEAKER_01]: white clothes, like all white clothes, white apron, white shoes, white clothes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is not news to Thomas Millwood because he has been mistaken for the ghost twice now.
[SPEAKER_01]: People have seen him coming and been like, it's a ghost.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, I'm a brick layer.
[SPEAKER_01]: My uniform is all white, and his family knows about this, and they're like Thomas, man.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can we like dip dye, something?
[SPEAKER_01]: Can we get some tie dye and go in the backyard and make you safe?
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's not have you running around town looking like this ding-dang ghost.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thomas unfortunately pays them no mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: Francis Smith happens to be out on his favorite errand, which is walking around looking for the ghost.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he hasn't had any success yet, but he's held that on finding this ghost and he is patrolling black lion lane.
[SPEAKER_01]: He sees a white figure and calls out twice to it, does not hear the figure respond.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the figure is now advancing on Francis Smith.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he is like, holy shit, I'm terrified.
[SPEAKER_01]: He pulls out that shotgun and uses it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is not the ghost, it is the bricklayer Thomas Millwood.
[SPEAKER_01]: And here we are, this is the third time somebody confused him for the ghost, unfortunately on the third time this person had a gun.
[SPEAKER_01]: Once Francis discovers, oh no, I shot this bricklayer dude, not a ghost at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's pretty upset as you can imagine.
[SPEAKER_01]: The neighbors that have heard the gunshot run out, and they see that he's really upset.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's over the body and they're like, you should go home, man, but before you can go home, a constable of some sort of some authority does arrive to take Francis.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they take the body of Thomas Millwood to a surgeon.
[SPEAKER_01]: who has the name Mr.
[SPEAKER_01]: Flower.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do like that name.
[SPEAKER_01]: He checks out the body like three days later.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not their like, so he's looking at the body on January 6 and you're like, I guess the guy was pretty busy.
[SPEAKER_01]: He takes him like three days to decide to like declare a death, which I could have declared no offense to you, Mr.
[SPEAKER_01]: Flowers, but I could have told you it was probably a gunshot wound, and guess what?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's absolutely a single gunshot wound that went through his mouth and his neck.
[SPEAKER_01]: During the inquest, they're talking about how gloomy the night was.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're like, it was dark.
[SPEAKER_01]: There were hedges.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would have been really hard to see.
[SPEAKER_01]: Man, it was like foggy.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was pretty scary out.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you can see where the guy might have thought.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the ghost.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then a lot of people are coming for a going Francis Smith, great guy, super nice, super chill guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is not somebody that went out to go kill a person.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the case of mistake in identity.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is very, very sad.
[SPEAKER_01]: He didn't know what he was doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, and meanwhile Thomas's mom is like, I don't know what to tell you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I told my dang son to quit wearing white clothes around.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to read you what she said.
[SPEAKER_01]: On Saturday evening, he and I were at home for he lived with me.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said he had frightened too ladies in a gentleman who were coming along the terrace in a carriage.
[SPEAKER_01]: For that, the man he said he dared to say their goes the ghost.
[SPEAKER_01]: That he said he was no more ghost than he was, and asked him, using a bad word.
[SPEAKER_01]: Did he want a punch on the head?
[SPEAKER_01]: Ugh, I begged him to change his dress.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thomas says I, there is a piece of work about the ghost and your clothes look white.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ray, do put on your great coat that you may not run in any danger.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is during the trial, she says this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they're all like, we hear you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Francis is nice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thomas had a warning.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thomas's sister was like, I was, I was around and I did, I heard that Francis Smith said that he told my brother to stop or he would shoot, but I think he fired the gun like immediately.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was around and that gun went off quick.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like my brother didn't have time to respond.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I don't know how fair that was, and then the judge is like, really quick, you guys?
[SPEAKER_01]: Malice, not a requirement for murder.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't need to be pissed or mad at somebody to, in fact, fucking kill them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, just to be clear with you guys who are serving on the jury, who are hearing all these different things that might be really...
[SPEAKER_00]: If someone's the end results, the same.
[SPEAKER_00]: The end result is the same, someone's dead.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so Lord Chief Baron McDonald is presiding, and he says to them, all killing whatever amounts to murder, unless justified by the law or in self defense.
[SPEAKER_01]: In cases of some involuntary acts or some sufficiently violent provocation, it does become manslaughter, but not one of those circumstances occurred here.
[SPEAKER_01]: So in other words, like,
[SPEAKER_01]: there wasn't violent provocation.
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't an involuntary act.
[SPEAKER_01]: You had a gun in your hands and decided to pull the trigger.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, here's the thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't self-defense.
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't an accident.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was trying to kill a ghost.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was, and then he did kill a man.
[SPEAKER_01]: And here's the
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's say we're in white and he knew that made him look like a ghost.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's just kind of like a judgment in error.
[SPEAKER_01]: Even if he was pretending deliberately to be the ghost, that wouldn't be a very serious crime.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would be like something we'd find him for, not shoot him for.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, it gives, it's giving a little, it's giving a little, like, it's giving a little, did you see what he was wearing?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's giving a little victim blame.
[SPEAKER_00]: Totally, I like it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like, yes, there's something about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not mad.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not mad at it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Chominal B should be murdered, but I'm like, doesn't feel good, does it?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, so what happens is he says to the jury, you got to find him guilty of murder if you think that, you know, we're presenting these facts.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's, he's reminding them like how a case works and they go away for an hour and they come back and they're like, see you guys, we came up with a verdict and it's manslaughter.
[SPEAKER_02]: Judges like, I just told you it couldn't be manslaughter.
[SPEAKER_01]: you got to find him guilty of murder or you got to quit him.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not manslaughter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Him believing that this was a ghost is not relevant.
[SPEAKER_01]: So then they come back and they're like, I guess guilty.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're like, all right, we're going to not do this customary sentence at the time, which would be death.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to like skip over that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to talk to the king, like I don't know what to do, McDonald's like I got to go talk to the king.
[SPEAKER_01]: He has the power to commute the sentence.
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, we don't want to hang you, we don't want to draw in quarter you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's try to commute this thing and they are able to commute it to a year's hard labor.
[SPEAKER_01]: tons of publicity on this case leads the ghost to finally come forward and be like I'm the ghost and it's John Graham he's just a shoemaker he's just an old guy that makes shoes having some fun and he's like I just like to wear the sheet and scare.
[SPEAKER_01]: people.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was first I was just kind of scared the guy that works for me my young apprentice.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just he's always scared in my kids with like ghost stories and stuff so I put on the white sheet to scare him.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really sorry.
[SPEAKER_01]: It seems like they really did cause a lot of her fuffle.
[SPEAKER_01]: The tour knowledge he was never punished and again the crime would have been like a very small fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: But at least for a little while, people are not going to talk about the hammer Smith ghost.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then in 1824, people started talking about it again.
[SPEAKER_01]: As if they didn't hear John Graham say it was him, it's just people really want to have a spook.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so they even add that it can breathe fire.
[SPEAKER_01]: Finally, people stop talking about it when they start talking in the 1830s about Spring Hill Jack.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that takes on.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're finally of somewhere else to put their anxiety, a different scary thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the legal precedent, it sets in the UK, it was about self-defense and how you can be held liable even if it's because of a mistake and belief, but that it takes 180 years.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a quarter of a field's decision that is in 1984.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what happens is they're talking in this case about whether if you are acting on a mistaken belief,
[SPEAKER_01]: if that is a sufficient defense.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the appeal that they're hearing in this particular case was that a man named Gladstone Williams saw a guy dragging another guy in the street and the guy getting drug in the street was shouting help.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Gladstone thinks that this guy is being assaulted and he harms
[SPEAKER_01]: the person dragging him.
[SPEAKER_01]: But what was actually happening was the guy getting drug was a suspected thief.
[SPEAKER_01]: The guy dragging him was a man of the law.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's this feeling of you didn't understand what you were seeing.
[SPEAKER_01]: You stepped in.
[SPEAKER_01]: You hurt someone and it doesn't matter why you did the mistake and belief can't be the defense.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to convict you of assault nonetheless.
[SPEAKER_01]: And at that appeal, the Lord Chief Justice Lane talks about this debate, like the, the hammer Smith ghost trial brings it up, and is saying, even if a defendant thinks that a crime is being committed, or that they're being attacked, and they think they have to protect themselves, or they think they have to prevent a crime, that like maybe that means that the prosecution didn't prove their case.
[SPEAKER_01]: if the jury agrees with them.
[SPEAKER_01]: If the jury's like, yes, I believe the defendant believed that they're not making it up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, then that is just means that the prosecution didn't prove their case well enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was a real switcher up Quinn.
[SPEAKER_01]: Quinn that was real switcher up.
[SPEAKER_01]: You said it was a ghost story and it wasn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was, but it wasn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's turned into a murder.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, a murder.
[SPEAKER_01]: Most foul.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Shall we stop?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, we should stop for today.
[SPEAKER_00]: But we will be back in your ear holes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Very soon.
[SPEAKER_01]: In a warm up cozy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Fulls for us.
[SPEAKER_01]: We like it, cozy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Keep them warm.
[SPEAKER_00]: Ooh!
[SPEAKER_01]: By the way, it is chilly here in Edinburgh.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, and it's definitely a place where the hammer Smith ghost would be walking around.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I am doing a ghost tour on Thursday night, another one.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I always do a ghost tour when I'm here.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm hoping to get some good content for you in a couple of weeks.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't wait.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I bet I'd do a good tour in Edinburgh when I was a kid.
[SPEAKER_00]: The end.
[SPEAKER_00]: Bye.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I do even!