[SPEAKER_00]: Alright, welcome back everyone.
[SPEAKER_00]: To another episode of Friends From Work, this is a podcast and a show about all things in the Marvel Cinematic Multiverse, and it's hosted by
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh man, you know what, it's it's great.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a nice little rumor, Evan.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think if you are just finding the show, it's been a while since we've been able to have.
[SPEAKER_01]: this long of a conversation about one movie.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so today is kind of the first time we're going to talk about something other than that's true, brand new day, which is a nice feeling.
[SPEAKER_01]: I actually had a, I had my little brother visiting.
[SPEAKER_01]: the last couple of days who is about to be a senior in college and as I get older and more out of touch, I have started trying to use him as like my latinist test.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're just, yeah, like what, you know, what are the, what are the youths talking about these days?
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, it
[SPEAKER_01]: it was encouraging to hear how excited he is about Marvel right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, I think when he was just for context, and again, this is just one person.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when he was here a year ago, I remember it was in the lead-up to Superman and Fantastic Four, and we were talking about that, and I got him some first birthday, like some of the comics that Superman was going to be referencing, and I just remember really vividly him saying that
[SPEAKER_01]: DC is about to like blow more of a lot of the water like that was his since then.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he loved Superman.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also love Superman.
[SPEAKER_01]: And for the record, I'm not trying to stoke the whole competition things.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do tend to think that you know like a rising tide lifts all ships when it comes to the stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: But
[SPEAKER_01]: this time it was a totally different narrative, not him being down on DC, just like, oh man, Marvel's so back.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so invested in it.
[SPEAKER_01]: He had gone back.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like again, I think last year he had not seen in like July had not seen.
[SPEAKER_01]: Brave New World had not seen Thunderbolts had not seen like I think several movies further back he was maybe just getting caught up on Loki season two and he had prior to that pin you know pretty in it and uh
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, now talking to him here, he's watched like everything that he's missed.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's following all of the online stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's following like the Disney plus recommended order for doomsday, which we'll talk about.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was kind of a, again, just a snapshot.
[SPEAKER_01]: But interesting, because you and I have been having this conversation, we've been having it on Discord.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, what is the moment right now?
[SPEAKER_01]: when it comes to Marvel more generally, how much does the brand new day success translate?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, one encouraging data point.
[SPEAKER_00]: in regards to the year and the moment we're having and the spacing out it's kind of nice actually that it feels like all this stuff has been evenly spaced like we had brand new day and a couple weeks of that and then there was some news from D23 about Avengers doomsday and kind of envision quests and shifting gears a little bit and kind of right as that starting to die down we're about to get this Avengers endgame on core and then that kind of goes right
[SPEAKER_00]: And then there's a, in the middle of that, there's New York Comic Con, where I'm sure you'll hear about Daredevil season three and other shows they're working on, and then that will take you, you know, whatever it is eight weeks right into Avengers Doomsday.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's, it's kind of nicely spaced.
[SPEAKER_00]: Whereas I think back to 2022 and 23, where we, we just had stuff stacked on top of each other all over the place.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was kind of hard to track.
[SPEAKER_00]: In regards to the moment,
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm just going to share a couple of anecdotal things, but when you and I started the podcast with the vendors end game, obviously that was a moment, but we weren't tracking our conversations of the moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: We weren't actively taking barometer or litmus tests as much because I think it was just understood.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the biggest thing in the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, yeah, um, and we didn't have a reason for my podcast standpoint.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I always remember in 2021 with one division that that was the most, again, we say it's all the time, but all of the diehard fans, the you, the me, the my wife, the gray garnels of the world, they were all going to be watching no matter what, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But during one division, my father and law, who's kind of anti this stuff, was texting me theories and Facebook articles to a theory and
[SPEAKER_00]: It, you know, slowly over the years, the Peter Steins, the Nade-On-States, the Seth-Pens, the Stephen Matthews, all these people, Michael Cole, they started not to think that people listening to this, like, think that we're making references to like, fame of celebrities.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right, these are all these little bodies.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just people that we know personally.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you talk about this, you talk about Kyle Cousins on this podcast, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like he used to be on episodes of this podcast, and then he basically was like, man, that's going to feel like a lot and now we're kind of circling back on that five years later.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but anyways, those just kind of dried up and,
[SPEAKER_00]: For whatever reason, whether it's just Spider-Man brand new day, whether it's D23 and Avengers Doomsday and that, whatever, not only am I seeing my algorithm change, Robbie, you know, like on Twitter, I am getting fed.
[SPEAKER_00]: all kinds of positive MCU content now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Funny memes, one that gets used to a lot from Project Hail Mary, which is like, he's crying and he's like, everything I said before, I was wrong about all that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's people saying, like, bashing the MCU and then it's a reply to that tweet.
[SPEAKER_00]: Everything I said before, you know, like I hadn't seen Thunderbolts in Fantastic Four.
[SPEAKER_00]: Everything I said before, I was wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: that kind of stuff, but you know, some of that can just be curated.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, it's like, if I click on a couple of those, maybe that's what's happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just getting fed those now.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I've seen a lot of people saying, what we kind of predict what happened, which is I need to go back and need to prep these.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but now anecdotal I told the story about my neighbor Megan and I'm telling the story to you about how like Josh Becca and Asher are going through it and just loving it all the whole thing and now they're they just finished one division and so he texted he texted me it was agatha all along just the other day
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and I thought there's a sports personality.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the biggest radio personalities in Washington, D.C. His name's Grant Paulson.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's been on this podcast because he's on football stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sitting somewhere and I get texted by him.
[SPEAKER_00]: just specifically, I can't even say because it's spoilers for brand new day, but of like very specific theory about brand new day.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's literally never texted me about Marvel.
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, the whole stick of their show in their sports world is that his co-host Danny is a huge nerd.
[SPEAKER_00]: Marvel lure the rings like huge nerd.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought he was kind of like not into it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he texted me a very specific theory and I was like, oh, what an honor getting this text.
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you kidding me?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then he proceeds to go on all these theories and he's like, oh, I love Marvel movies.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know all the comics, but I love the movies.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he sent me a rankings of the Spider-Man movies.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sitting there going, I can't believe I'm having this conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Peter Stein.
[SPEAKER_00]: Seth and they I'm getting these texts again.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's my point to say I haven't really had that in five years and for whatever that's worth the casuals are texting me again, which not only do I love I do think it is a true sign of the times it really is yeah and you know it's it's funny when we say this stuff it it's it's not like
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like we're making the movies, and it's not like I'm like cheering on a sports team or something, and it's more one, we started the podcast because we enjoyed talking about these, and we enjoy when the universe itself is
[SPEAKER_01]: in a healthy spot like when the when the projects are good when they're when they're sinking up in a way that makes sense like that's the magic of the MCU over just a collection of really good movies and so there's that and you know it like when when we say this stuff anecdotally it's just when you have hosted in MCU podcast for seven years uh... you
[SPEAKER_01]: There is like, I have started to get comments when we're the other, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So like people start to identify you with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it is a lot more fun to be identified with the MCU and people who are excited about it than when people are just saying over and over again in the garbage.
[SPEAKER_00]: Weirdly, I think because they identify both of us,
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why the text dried up because if they didn't like it, they didn't want to just like start fights, texting me all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: They just kind of dropped off.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, they're mostly back now.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's talk about, so you know, we have a YouTube channel.
[SPEAKER_00]: You should subscribe to it because that's the vehicle we can use to get the fastest information out.
[SPEAKER_00]: So on the night of D20, D20, three, I came to the studio and I was streaming live my reaction to all the news.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's start with the biggest news, which is the more fleshed out look at the D23 trailer for Avengers doomsday, which I think is the one that I was hearing at San Diego Comic Con from above.
[SPEAKER_00]: It seems like it from the reports I saw and I saw that really, really janky leaked video from that thing, like before they took it down for a split second.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know you're not as in yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so freaking in.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so in and I'm just so team team up movies.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so team the or other just farming right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like basically, I'm now between watching that trailer, between listening to all these different people talk, because I've done a lottery search.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm now fully in the camp of, oh, there's, there's so much more coming.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is literally an intentional teaser to show us literally nothing other than Dr. Doom is or a farming.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's working because like the dread is already starting to build up towards this character that we're just now meeting.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that is working, I think the accents on point, the two things that I just absolutely lost my mind over in the trailer, obviously the hell answers to me is incredible follow up to what we saw with Thor, the amount of power or whatever magic he's able to do in that moment, like I don't think that that means he's always that much more powerful than Thor, but whatever's happening in that situation,
[SPEAKER_00]: that he's able to stop that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then raise these sentinals up, which might be the sentinals that we saw from the original teaser with like Cyclops, you know, walking around the background.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: All of which I think is going to happen early on in the movie, but the standout moment for me is is actually is read and sue.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's hearing sue narrate that.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a broken man I didn't realize it and she's crying and it's like a oh man like we had a relationship I just didn't realize he was going through this much that it's gonna lead to this and then read who Online I think this is so funny because when Pedro Pascal was cast as yeah read Richards There were some people that doubted that casting and there were people even after the movie Which I totally disagree with because I love fantastic for it's a top six movie for me But there were people that were
[SPEAKER_00]: frustrated that he kind of was not monotone, but you know, he's pretty neutral in his emotions is emoting in the movie, which is partially read.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think he's trying to portray a guy who's in his head more.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, I'm going in long rants already.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, it's just a fun complaint to me about read, because I think if you know what complain I'm referencing, though.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, but I do think that that's just, that's a strange
[SPEAKER_01]: way to like I think that so much of the of the characterization of Reed in the Marvel universe is that he's this kind of like at times almost robotically intelligent, detached guy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And almost socially awkward because of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, he's not Tony Stark with the charisma or the show.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's that, yeah, that's kind of the like, like they're both the geniuses, but Tony is the ladies man and read as the guy that would rather just be in his lab.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, right.
[SPEAKER_00]: But to see him, that line steals the trailer for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like you would love that, too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just him like actually holding his hand,
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell me, Victor, did you do this, you know, just seeing that to me does a lot because now we know they have a relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's actually breaking his heart, I think whatever is happening and you're getting to see Pedro kind of level up as far as like or maybe just maybe it's not a better performance, but the diurness of the moment you're getting that from him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's uh,
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a really good point on the doom front with the power level side.
[SPEAKER_01]: We talked a lot when King was first revealed as the next big bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: That it was nice to see Marvel.
[SPEAKER_01]: not try to one up the the powers of of Thanos or like the sheer strength with something even in particular again basically yeah it was like that they were trying to do something like the the clever thing about king is he's just a guy that has access to this insane technology
[SPEAKER_01]: And I do think that they are doing a similar thing with Doom.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like Doom is not, he doesn't have any superpowers.
[SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: He has superpowers and so far as like Dr.
[SPEAKER_01]: Strange does, I guess.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he has access to things that he has basically.
[SPEAKER_01]: taught himself, whether it's the mystical side or the, the like techy side.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I do, I think that that's a good call out that it's not this, oh, and a fight doom beats Thor every time
[SPEAKER_01]: either by like whatever it is that he's channeling magically, which they make a point to show in that trailer that it is not like I am so strong as doomed that two fingers, that's all it takes to fight Thor.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, every character has to have some kind of vulnerability.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, so I think it's going to be that because otherwise, and there are a lot of funny memes
[SPEAKER_00]: If this is the, we need to fight doom and stop him because he's this strong.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is Thor recruiting people like Sam Wilson or Yelena, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like reading, meaning if he's so strong that Stormbreaker, which is a weapon that is forged from a dying star,
[SPEAKER_00]: as like a go-lactic, like we had to go to this place for a go-lactic weapon, you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if he's literally stopping him by not even moving a muscle, I just wonder if something else is going on there, or then what is his weakness, and I think there will be one, maybe that he can be surprised.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he said, well, guys, so if he just gets stabbed in the back, when he's not looking or something, it can happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or I think whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, it's,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I like that he is just a guy, you know, like he is, because I think that's also part of the, that is part of the, the, mystique and the cool factor around doom is that he, he is, he has raised himself up in such a way and he, like in the comics and he carries himself as though he is some kind of God, but he is just a guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's something that's actually there's a, it's like what we've talked about before with the already J of it all.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a different kind of charisma to that that I think you see here that is totally different than Thanos like with Thanos it's it's almost like he's so he's so powerful in in so many ways that you never really see him project a lot of ego.
[SPEAKER_01]: because it's not a right necessary.
[SPEAKER_00]: I actually literally, this is so random.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just yesterday saw Josh Brolin on Howard Stern as a clip on Instagram.
[SPEAKER_00]: I watched the interview, this is from probably two years ago, or something a while ago, and he was talking about his journey with Thanos.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's exactly what he talked about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: When he first came in,
[SPEAKER_00]: It was actually a very pro marvel and very pro Russo brothers because when he first came and he was doing like he said he was chilling something very different and it was that like an ego like I am Thanos and like very and basically they had him think about Scarface and more of like this idea that he's like kind of like down like scratching his head like kind of hunched over thinking about like
[SPEAKER_00]: you know this burden I have to do I don't just like it and that's when he kind of like stumbled upon this voice but it was very exactly what you're saying it was like he came in with too much ego and they're like no let's play with it a little more to where you're going to get comments that some people agree with you or like you in a way even though you're doing this horrific stuff and that's when by the way as a side note he's like that's why the russos are so good at what they are like what they did because they care and they have the knowledge to direct it like hey let's actually
[SPEAKER_00]: go this way with it, but anyway, sorry, yes, Doom, it's more of like I'm saying like you didn't get in this one trailer, you're already seeing more I'm joking about like more aura farming like this idea just like looking with like cool and standing there like just picking your arms up like this you're already getting more of that than you ever did from Thanos and I like that it's different in that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah and you know I mean I've I've seen some of the like
[SPEAKER_01]: however intentional this is, and if it is intentional, you know, what it means, but I've seen some of the parallels to the I am doom and I am Iron Man.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's a rumor that I read this week that I don't think I should say.
[SPEAKER_00]: that did, did you see anything kind of like hot?
[SPEAKER_00]: Take, did you see, did you see, did you see, did you see anything from David Harbor?
[SPEAKER_00]: Red Guardian?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I'm not gonna say anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just saw this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I sometimes I've said this and it's not true, so, but I just think the more and more I read, Robbie, I think the more, by the way, two things real quick.
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember our bold predictions episode?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, thinking that there's there's a rumor that two of our bold predictions, one of mine, one of yours are exactly right, which is crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Eric Voss was at D23 and they have a TVA built out and the TVA's all damaged.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so there's rumors that like early in the movie, Dr. Doom attacks the TVA, which is exactly, like, weren't for word, what I said.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: The second rumor, and again, this rumor, who knows?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: No idea.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no factual evidence there.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the second one is, I just can't help but think that you're right about some kind of Tony Stark connection.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I'm not going to say specifics of what I read and saw, but again, every time the Rousseau's in Kevin fight you get asked about this, they answer basically like, it's going to make sense when you see it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, yeah, I've chills right now, but I think that's what it should be.
[SPEAKER_00]: It should be some version of like, honestly,
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not even fully closing the door to this being some version of Tony Stark, but then they have an alternate doom if they want to keep it going in the future.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a non-Tony Stark variant.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would even not, that sounds crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I might not be opposed to that.
[SPEAKER_00]: If these two stories are kind of about this one, who kind of went crazy, anyways, anyways,
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you had said that about his wife and his kid.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, like obviously, the character I think of Victor Vandum proceeds Tony Stark in the comics and they're totally different, but there is kind of a long history between those characters, even before the infamous Iron Man stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: and then you obviously had the infamous Iron Man run where it is doomed essentially taking over for Tony Stark.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there are connections between those characters and the comics.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know like I think it's hard with with these movies and we've talked about this
[SPEAKER_01]: I think in Spider-Man, you can get away with having villains hang around because they are generally smaller-scale.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, this is gonna be a good point at you're about to make.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I do wonder if is there any way to keep...
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: If you keep doom around and you have built him up and he's just like, this guy that is...
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, because again, that's, I mean, one of the things for context in the Marvel comics universe, secret wars basically immediately preceded the infamous Iron Man.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you, you have secret wars and in one of the great endings of any Marvel comics as it pertains to doom and in a way it's sort of,
[SPEAKER_01]: closes off doom story and it's just it's a very like sort of like in game with Steve Rogers, it's this like this feels like the end of of this character and then they pick it back up and do this new thing with it which was good and new and different but like it's that same problem of like okay now what are you going to do with this character that can possibly top
[SPEAKER_01]: what you just did.
[SPEAKER_00]: If it wasn't a comic book, we'd never be asking the question.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I was telling a movie, even if it's a trilogy, you go, well, here's the bad guy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's an end to the story.
[SPEAKER_00]: So like, usually it ends with some kind of conclusion whether that's the bad guy dying, the bad guy converting to being good, the bad guy getting sent away, whatever it makes sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's only because it's comic books.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it works for Spider-Man, because he can send him to jail.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they go there and then tell like, I'm broken out.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't send Dr. Doom to Rikers.
[SPEAKER_00]: It can't send Thanos to Rikers.
[SPEAKER_00]: It just doesn't make sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, and that's what that's the whole pushing pole.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like people say, well, I want this build up.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want the character like you can't have the whole build up to ultra and then have it be over.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, well, but if you were making a movie, that is what would happen, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Wouldn't say, but now wait, there's four more movies coming that we can, you know, tell.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's just the weird nature of the medium.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's the, like, I think you look at someone like,
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know like Darth Vader or the way they handled like Voldemort and Harry Potter movies like they find a way to kind of spread it out and not water down the potency of the villain but it all is because it's building towards some kind of final
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, as George Lucas after return the Jedi at the time, I don't think his plan was, oh, and then I'm going to like, we got to keep Darth Vader around because we're going to tell like 20 more stories about Darth Vader.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was like, no, that was the trilogy of Anakin Skywalker.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I think that's the, that's the thing with Doom is you look at the other way as the
[SPEAKER_01]: never, it was never satisfying within the context of one film or two in the original.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think that that was because of what they were doing with them, the way that they were trying to do other stories and just mix doom in.
[SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, like to your point with Thanos, and I've seen Feige talk about how people kind of retroactively assign a lot more build to Thanos
[SPEAKER_01]: two post credit scenes and less than five minutes of screen time in guardians.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was all.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what has one push back to that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the infinity stones.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I think people mixed that up a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanos wasn't hinted at a lot for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: There wasn't a build up.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was a build up to the infinity stones.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, a little more.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I would say even then what's interesting is that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you could argue that there is as much build up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, granted, it's been more diffuse.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's been, I think the difference is there have been a lot of projects between these.
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot more projects.
[SPEAKER_01]: But in terms of the number of mentions of, like, the multiverse and incursions and things that impact different universes, that's going to just between Loki and Quantumania and the Marvels and Deadpool and Wolverine, they're, I would argue as a member, multiverse and madness, yeah, the biggest one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because the, the thing is, like, Infinity Stones did not exist.
[SPEAKER_01]: as of the Avengers.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I remember even far from home and one division, they aren't about that, but they even reference it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But was this the multiverse?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's real?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, like the next stuff, like I think it was after, I mean, the like Thor the Dark World is the first time you get the Infinity Stone reference.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then Age of Ultron is the first time you see all of them
[SPEAKER_00]: And guardians with the power stone and like though yeah, but like all of yeah, that's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then when they talk about kind of the, you know, Thor realizes that there's something going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he, but it's just sort of this general like, oh, there is a Macauffin.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Out here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then really like, and it was a clever way of them tying it all together.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I guess my point is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, they, I think it was because you saw a reference every couple movies, whereas here it's been scattered across so many things.
[SPEAKER_01]: But on the Doom front, like, in the Thanos front, like, it's really, it's not even really in-game.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was really just infinity war, which is very much a Thanos movie.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then by the time Thanos comes back for the final battle and in-game.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like you use a confetti war is kind of a Thanos movie just like doomsday is going to be your introduction to do right and then Thanos is just he comes back in to give them a great final villain to take on and you can kind of import a lot of the stuff from the first From infinity war, but yeah, so I do think it's uh, you're right that they can just in one movie or two movies.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's that's more than enough if they handle it correctly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the parallel there of the build up the Thanos versus the build up to the Infinity stones.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think is apt because there's not been a ton of build up to doom, but like Infinity or anything else, like you just said, that is going to be the case.
[SPEAKER_00]: But when you talk about the multiverse and incursions and stuff, I do think you're going to go back and look and go,
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, there was as much build up to the multiverse and incursion side as there was to the infinity stones in that like Dr. Doom in this trailer says all of you have lived lived stolen lives And I started cutting dollars people and I started thinking about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like that's actually legitimately true the first thing Josh Wilson texted me after he finished endgame Excuse me after finish endgame was
[SPEAKER_00]: Wait a second, so Steve went back in time, but he stayed there.
[SPEAKER_00]: So are there two steves?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, what would that do?
[SPEAKER_00]: What does that mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because we've had that conversation, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: At some moment, is there two steves?
[SPEAKER_00]: Does he have to avoid that person?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I'm like, well, that's a great question because they're literally exploring.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, Steve kind of stole a life.
[SPEAKER_00]: because the life that he was supposed to have was not having a kid with Peggy, because he got frozen, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And like by going back, marrying her, having a child, that is not, that wasn't the same timeline.
[SPEAKER_00]: So then Loki starts messing with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you start going through and you're like, yeah, like, four,
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe he didn't break like multiversal rules, but he goes to eternity and gets this daughter back from the dead because of this kind of cosmic celestial thing and now he's raising her and that's not
[SPEAKER_00]: really his daughter, you know, that's not her life.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not the life that that person lived.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you start going through obviously if you want to bring in like days of future past, which was not included in the rewatch order.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: But same thing, they're reversing what actually happened and some people are getting extended lives that didn't have them.
[SPEAKER_00]: because the consequences.
[SPEAKER_00]: I started thinking about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, man, in that way, you're exactly right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, like a project like Miss Marvel, or where will find night or something, you know, you had to get through those, not in a bad way, but like those were not about the multiverse stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they were kind of side stories.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so in that way, it doesn't feel as connected.
[SPEAKER_01]: And because there shows and not movies, like I think it's a little bit different than like, okay, here's Ant-Man, which is not about the infinity stones.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good point, but then the next movie is Dr. Stranger, whatever that is.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, but there have been enough references to go, oh, when Dr. Doom says that this does kind of make sense, it is maybe a little bit more tied than we think, especially as you and I've been discussing, what are the shortened watch orders?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's it if you and I send a shortened watch order of just the multiversal type stuff like I actually think there's a lot of it that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like you've kind of broken it up.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like you talk about it, but you've kind of broken it up into like here's kind of like the new Avenger team assembling with Sam and Thunderbolts and like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of one through line.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's kind of a look at all the fallout from endgame and that's a through line.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then here's all the multi-versal stuff whenever we're talking about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you look at that way and you remove some of these peripheral things.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're like, oh, they have kind of been building toward it a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: We just don't know the exact details of all of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, which I'm excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll have something to share here soon.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so pumped about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think it's going to be a fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a whole conversation we had about the Disney Plus countdown watch order and what I think it means and what I think they're trying to accomplish and I think we have a better watch order.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but I also think that it's interesting that they include the first two X-Men movies
[SPEAKER_01]: Like as what you've watched, but then you know, the more I think about it, I was talking to Greg, who's been kind of helping get some of the watch order stuff fine tuned, and I think it kind of makes sense if you're using those movies as a
[SPEAKER_01]: like a baseline, like here's just who these characters, like they introduce you to the X-Men, they introduce you to the main players, the world, like what is a mutant.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that that makes sense if you are not relying on anything related to their time travel
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's interesting, like they also don't include any of the dead pool movies, including Deadpool 2, so there's no, like I have them.
[SPEAKER_01]: You start to dig into that stuff and then you ask, like again, with the Tony Stark of it all, like are they, are they not including days of future past because.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just truly not relevant and it's a totally different set of Xmen anyway and they don't want us to think that we're picking up with the same characters exactly that we're in days of future past or is it something where they're not wanting to tip their hand like too much.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I, but I do the rather like business decisions being made.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now with that movie, because that movie was well received.
[SPEAKER_00]: But, right, we talked about they left out like the Marvels.
[SPEAKER_00]: And is it because they just don't want to have a larger spotlight on quantumania?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and quantumania, I think the Marvels was the, the initially shocking one for me because they made such a big deal of Monica waking up in a universe that I have to imagine is the, the X
[SPEAKER_01]: But also like quantum area is kind of crazy because I know the king of it all, but that is a, like you have some incursion exposition from king there that is some of the most direct stuff we get about.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's why our watch order will be fun to release because I truly think that we can beat Disney at this just because we don't have the business ramifications we have to figure out this is just right.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're a fan.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's what I think you should watch.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's the order you're watching.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm excited to share that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Before we go to the other D23 stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: there there was I had this thought the other day that just it it popped in my head again when you were talking about Josh Wilson and what Steve did.
[SPEAKER_01]: We talked about this so much after in-game the ramifications of Steve going back and what it meant for him to put the stones back and what it meant for him to go and live this alternate life and the potential
[SPEAKER_01]: Something that I don't know that I've really talked about, since Loki, even season one, like,
[SPEAKER_01]: the we we think about adventures and game being at the sacred timeline because we're told that like that was what was supposed to happen from a TVA's perspective.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then you find out that like all that means is that he who remains decided that that's what the the flow should be presumably because that's what leads to his timeline like that's what happened in his past and so he keeps all of that in line.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I was just thinking
[SPEAKER_01]: there's kind of another level to that that I am curious to see whether they explore, especially if we do have doom showing up in the TVA, which is like, if not for the Avengers going back to 2012, and Tony inventing that technology, then getting back there,
[SPEAKER_01]: Tony botching the, uh, like first attempt to get the test erect.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then you also never have Loki.
[SPEAKER_01]: making it to the TVA, like that variant of Loki, which means you never have what happens with Sylvie at the end of season one or what happens with Loki at the end of season two, where you have this totally different now multiversal dynamic where the secret timeline doesn't exist, like in isolation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, me, yeah, that's not the only timeline.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you have all, and whatever that means, whether it means that you have you all you always had the different timelines, but now they can just connect in a way that they couldn't before or whether that just means that they all exist now, however, Marvel wants to think about all that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just realize like we always know that Loki comes out of in game.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's part of why it's such a great place to start the multiversal watch order.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think it just struck me that if you were looking at this in terms of what the Avengers did beyond just the fact that they stole their own, like the, they stole lives or were able to kind of have a future that they wouldn't have been able to have if they couldn't undo what Thanos did.
[SPEAKER_01]: would have these pretty dramatic multi-versal ramifications just because of what happens in the other way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I helped explore all that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: The vision class trailer looked amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll be right back.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Today's episode is brought to you by our friends at panelbound comics.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you go to panelboundcomics.com and use the promo code, friends from work, all one word, you can save more money on really good comics, panelboundcomics.com and they're having a couple of things.
[SPEAKER_00]: One, they're having a big sale recently.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think he texted about a DC sale, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like a Batman thing?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're actually moving to a much larger warehouse, which is great.
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[SPEAKER_00]: VisionQuest is pulling from some fun stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: So panelboundcomics.com, promo code friends from work.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're still like four months out from Avengers Doomsday.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the teasers have essentially been just that.
[SPEAKER_00]: They've been teasers.
[SPEAKER_00]: We haven't seen anything about VisionQuest.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we got a full blown like three-minute trailer.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that revealed some plot things that I didn't predict ahead of time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now I didn't know what to think about the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let me first say, if you go to YouTube right now, you can watch the trailer, I recommend you watching it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But before you hear us talk about it, we're not going to like do a live reaction thing, but you should watch it because it looks really cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: And after seeing the trailer, I now totally understand this emphasis on it being the one division trilogy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I don't think I,
[SPEAKER_00]: foresaw it being this um like there's a shot where vision says home is just me and it goes into his head and you're now seeing this whole made up universe inside his head like that's a digital creation of something.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, come on, the parallel there is insane, and so in that way, not to mention the kid part of it, which is another way they kind of cheated time by the way, you're really cheat time, but you know what I mean, it's a little bit of a unique situation there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just don't think I first saw that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know how Ultron would come back in human form and this makes total sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's only it seems like within visions mind which in age of Ultron we get the line that says you're a complex structure and over of overlaid story.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah, yeah, but he also says and Ultron as a part of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this seems to be leaning into there's a part of Ultron in him that
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's interesting to like Friday, like all of the, and even Jarvis from the, uh, yeah, from, because you, you wound up watching Agent Carter, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I watch Agent Carter at St. Jarvis.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like, uh, they're all kind of in a line.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was a fun little, you know, and they're all in his head.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you know what's going to be in this head?
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess is my point.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did, I didn't until maybe a week or two ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I was doing some research to see what had come out.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think maybe just between some comments that Paul Betney and other folks had made.
[SPEAKER_01]: I saw something where a lot of it was going to be taking place in, uh, like, in, like, the, the mind scape, but then also isn't he in, um, see in Scotland, is that where the,
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's the accent.
[SPEAKER_00]: Clearly, the bar that the very first shot says you and the redhead used to come in here all the time, which is cool, so cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's a W plus V, you know, and that makes sense, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Isn't that where they are?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Infinity War Infinity War, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Which again is, you know, we saw such a small,
[SPEAKER_01]: amount of.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, man, I was so into that trailer.
[SPEAKER_01]: I loved seeing Ultron as Ultron.
[SPEAKER_01]: I loved the explanation for why we then see him as James Spader, proper and how that, like, it's a, uh,
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's a good way of getting around, you know, how expensive it would be to animate Ultron for an entire show, but also it's a nice way of like, like with Will and Defoe, where it's, you can't keep him behind a mask the whole time, and I think it's kind of nice to have spader
[SPEAKER_01]: out being able to like really lean into the characterization and like explore more of Ultron in that way that's a character that you and I have always thought was kind of underrated within the MCU.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like I really have no idea where it's
[SPEAKER_01]: where it's going.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, where it's going to leave us because there's a couple shots of him in actual comic accurate vision again like Kate.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, a little good on him.
[SPEAKER_00]: And those shots look really cool by the way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you do see the one shot of really quickly like robot ultra on like crushing someone's head or something.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah for a second.
[SPEAKER_00]: So wrestling with that being in him too, but yeah, like still seeing that kind of version of the the age of Ultron version.
[SPEAKER_01]: I, uh, aren't we also supposed to get the guy from, um,
[SPEAKER_01]: like the kind of OG villain from Iron Man, the 10 Rings guy, I think it's supposed to appear in the show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, really, that was the rumor, and I thought it was confirmed for a long time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I saw something in the synopsis that they, like the official synopsis, they released for the show about they're being, like a bounty on,
[SPEAKER_01]: visions head and and I wonder if that's how you kind of bring in the the geopolitical thing a little bit and it would be in like again it's been fun seeing things like the show up in iron heart where you kind of have these these like old almost forgotten ties to the original
[SPEAKER_00]: I just, I'm so excited to see how it leaves him and Wanda, because as of now, I don't think she's in the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: That or she's an unbelievable liar because she said, I literally didn't even know much about it until I talked to Paul like a week ago and he loves it and he was, now again, that's stuff, you know, we've been lied to many, many times before.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I do think that one, you know, it's this version of vision that doesn't have, he was just created as a weapon.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then he gets his memories implanted by the other vision.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now he has no idea who he is.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you think about it, that makes sense to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like he didn't really fully experience the one division like Westview, he other than it being transferred to him.
[SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't really have any feelings for Wanda or those kids anymore, because again, this is not the one that went through that other than the memories being transported.
[SPEAKER_00]: So sitting there in that kind of TVA style theater, I think he's going to be important where he's wrestling with spader.
[SPEAKER_00]: What like what am I literally?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what he says in quantum vision, but it's like are you that vision?
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you the vision that we knew from infinity war who was alive and you know a kind of breathing thing?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you can change into this human form.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is all happening in your head So him kind of going on that journey, but where do they leave him?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean does he like figure that all out and he comes out of that as an avenger?
[SPEAKER_00]: And like back on the team does he come out of that kind of rogue like okay I'm I'll do the right thing, but I'm just going to help one I can Does that have anything to do with one it because I feel like now at this point.
[SPEAKER_00]: The wander reveal when it inevitably happens is going to be so powerful because there's been so much time and I think they've handled it just right where they've let the consequences of multiverse of madness.
[SPEAKER_00]: be out there and you're feeling it but men that's gonna hit like crack when she shows back up against doom or at the end of this you know you like yeah she's like hey vision at the very end or I've shows right now or you know they need to you know just like Tony doesn't civil war of like where's your guy you know Queens could they do something like that where it's like well who else we missing and then it's like somebody knows like vision knows he's like well one second
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just saying, where do they leave it and when that actually happens, I'm gonna love it as the biggest fan of one division in the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's also like, yeah, I mean, it, the multiversal stuff there is interesting because in multiversal madness, you find out that one has the same kids and all these other universes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so then you wonder talking again about the stolen lives thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like where did, where did the
[SPEAKER_01]: kids that she kind of materialized, like, was that wholly created, was that pulled from somewhere because she also has this unique connection to the whole multiverse as the Scarlet Witch and you get the sense that there is a, like, I don't think that it's like each universe has their own Scarlet Witch.
[SPEAKER_01]: My understanding with the way that is set up is that she is
[SPEAKER_01]: like the one.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the way cooler and they kind of referenced that with the dark old, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: You are the being that is destined to destroy all things or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like I feel like there's a line.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I feel like there's some line from Agatha that makes it seem like I have chills.
[SPEAKER_01]: She is.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so then I wonder if it's one person to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, and if you, I mean, there's sort of a problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: We know there's other wonders, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: But how many of their wand has ever turned into like the the Scarlet Witch, the B. Yeah, hopefully zero.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, the fact, yeah, the fact that like all she has the power to destroy all the Darkholds at once, I think, is telling, but then also the, I just wonder if you, if you have a scenario where,
[SPEAKER_01]: doom, you know, if you have secret wars with a bunch of different realities kind of cobble together and you show it with a wand that's there that is not our Wanda, but maybe like, I don't know, like I we don't know what happened to Wanda at the end of
[SPEAKER_01]: of multiverse of madness exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, she's clearly crushed by rocks, but do we know that rocks crushing her can killer?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, but then, you know, Kevin always points out to the red flash there at the end.
[SPEAKER_00]: So is it possible that she did like a little like shield, you know, bubble shield or like had some way of teleporting out of there?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's because she's not dead.
[SPEAKER_00]: I get that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'll head in, whatever the heck I need to head in, to know that red flash was a thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just, yeah, I, I wonder if she went somewhere other than just, oh, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, well, is she just did she survive and she's just somewhere in the world or did
[SPEAKER_01]: elsewhere, uh, like some other plane, some other, some bench like I guess not another universe because only America was able to do that directly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, but then I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I guess I'm just saying I think I think you're right.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are so many interesting things that they could do there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, that I think would be like they've they've laid enough of foundation for any number of angles.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I do think that
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if it's hard because there's a part of you that wants like vision quest to end and tie everything up really nicely, but I don't think I think maybe it will tie up thematically, but I don't think it's going to end with one to envision just back together happily ever after, because I think that they're going to want to
[SPEAKER_00]: the one to character well and with all this with all this which talk with right there's even rumors that and these are just theories but could want to be on his side right
[SPEAKER_00]: If that's the case, then the Avengers are really screwed.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's this SNL skip, by the way.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was making me laugh so hard.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to see it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not going to work as well on a podcast, but it's an SNL skip back when LeBron was on the calves.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you're not a sports guy, but famously, LeBron was doing all the heavy lifting, and there was a bunch of kind of guys on his team.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's all the SNL characters.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're like,
[SPEAKER_00]: where are the other Cleveland Cavaliers and we're doing everything it's like down Glover and he's like um he's like we'll do anything LeBron asks as long as it's not basketball related like we'll give him a high five when he makes his free throws and we'll you know it's whatever but the the mean people of using is just saying Thor when he sees the new Avengers line up
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's a little bit of like, Thor like going, okay, we need to recruit some people and he goes and it's a bunch of just kind of people and it's like, oh, no, this is so if one does also on Dooms team that, you know, he's he's up against it, that's all me, I don't think she'll be that I, you know, typically with these characters that go through something like horrifically traumatic over and over and over again.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm kind of fine with, I would be fine with them ending up together eventually.
[SPEAKER_00]: And kind of like that being the status quo for a while.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if they want to become a super family that just doesn't have a ton of drama, I actually think that that would be interesting now, given they've had to go through so much.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of the inverse, like, where can we go each time?
[SPEAKER_00]: And we've talked about that with like Thor and Hulk and stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but at some point,
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the other place to go is sometimes the good way because they've gone through so much, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Honestly, kind of even with like Spider-Man, that's where you're like, maybe it's okay if he and MJ have a little run, you know, together for a little bit because yeah, it's been tough out there for him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyways, wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: What a tangent.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am a type of vision quest and yeah, I wonder if there'll be we know this is going to be wander references wonder if you'll get a cameo and or I wonder if you'll get at least information of maybe at the very end of vision quest him realizing I know where she is or something Yeah, after going through his journey or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, maybe it's
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm, yeah, I'm just so curious to see if they, if they give us that at some point or if they recognize that they would man, I don't know that that last scene in one division, I feel like they have to at some point before Elizabeth Olson and Paul that knee say we are 100% done with the Marvel cinematic universe, they have to be like, okay, we'll just.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, give us one more scene to like tie this up.
[SPEAKER_00]: The reunions that they're setting up for doomsday and secret wars are gonna be so special.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you come on as a fan of some of this stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like some of these interactions are in that way, actually could blow in Fanny War out of the water, just the reunions, I mean, because like think about like now, everything we've gone through, Loki meeting Thor.
[SPEAKER_00]: Think about, if Steve and Thor realize it's Tony Stark, variant.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, think about one to envision seeing each other again for the first time.
[SPEAKER_00]: If that's the case, like I could, I keep going.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, Peter and Doom, if it's a Tony Stark variant.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, even the, like if, if, because the way like read and sewer building it up, there's room for it to be something
[SPEAKER_01]: and describe his story in this way where but nobody knows him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Nobody would know nobody would know or even.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Thor's listening going like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then season goes, oh my gosh, I know exactly you're talking about.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I, yeah, I mean, I think that the more the further it goes, the more excited I get.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I,
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm I'm really liking the way they're doing it all the way back in Steve
[SPEAKER_00]: to see each other?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's gonna.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think, yeah, yeah, you're right.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are so many things like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's not even getting into all of the... And I don't even say, I don't even say those, that's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't even say those is like, that's not a fan boy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm saying like an MCU reunion.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not just like, what mashups can we do?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that what a brandy war was, which is amazing?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm now saying, I have relationships with these characters that because of their past relationships, it's gonna be really special when they,
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why, that's also why I really will see what happens, and I've so many times with the MCU, I've said I hope they don't do this and they do it and it winds up being great.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I don't, I could say this and be totally off and be totally fine being off.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that there is so much to mind there just in terms of what we already know is in the mix for doomsday.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are so many characters, a lot of whom we have not seen in a while.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we've got a whole, at least one other universe of people of characters that we don't necessarily know at all, even though we're familiar with them generally with the X-Men and then the Fantastic Four.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've only had the one movie.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've got Doom, who has never been introduced until now, like there's so much to explore there that all of the rumors that that keep going around of like, and
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we have Toby in this universe too or we see like his universe get destroyed at the beginning or like we have these additional like other universes from prior incarnations or like when we talk about Jackman and Reynolds showing up which it seems is more and more likely in some form with the way that they've been kind of teasing that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're always around, whatever they're talking about.
[SPEAKER_01]: Which like, my, I think my hope is that there's a way where, you know, those characters are the only ones that we have actually seen, halt like the end of a universe.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, oh, good point.
[SPEAKER_01]: However, you think about that and however the mechanics of Deadpool Wolverine work into all this with the anchor being stuff, you could see something where, where Thor or someone is talking to Loki and they're like, how are we supposed to, to keep a whole universe from dying?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it's like, well, actually, there is this, you know, one whack you do over here and like cut to the queen style thing with that Wolverine.
[SPEAKER_01]: that could work in a cool way, but I think once you go beyond much of that, I think that's where I'm like, and I do trust the folks making the movie, because I think what Mark Smith really did famously for Infinity War was take a look at every possible character combination, figure out what was going to be the most fun, but also the most meaningful and move things along
[SPEAKER_01]: are some of the best ones in that movie and do so much character work for both of those characters.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I have to think that that is the focus for all of this and the more I think about that, the more excited I get.
[SPEAKER_01]: The more I hear, oh and they can also throw this in and they could also throw this in and it could be like what if he shows up, that stuff doesn't excite me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the idea of
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm all for taking a moment to showcase the Ramey universe one more time before we finished the whole multiverse saga out, but not at the expense of a really good really focused story here.
[SPEAKER_01]: So those are the things that give me pause, these are the things like what you're talking
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll close this part of the discussion with this Chris Evans at San Diego Comic-Con being interviewed with everyone there says that as soon as Avengers Endgame was done like a year later Kevin and Lou sat down with him and started pitching we were saying we want to tell more stories about Nomad.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he said, I started hearing these pitches.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, there were good pitches, but it just literally didn't feel right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was, in his words, I started becoming really precious about the character.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I started turning these pitches down because it just didn't make sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: He said, over the years for the next four years, I probably heard 12 formal pitches, where they came over to my house, gave me another idea, and I turned all 12 of them down.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, then in 2023, I got a phone call from my agent that Robert Dunning Jr. might be, he's talking to them about figuring something out.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, what, Donnie's back, what do we, what are we doing here?
[SPEAKER_00]: Look, this might be interesting and then then he heard the pitch and he said, when I heard that pitch, I was like, okay, this is, this is the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: What is it about the story that you turn 12 pitches down and then your precious about the character and seven years later you decide, okay, we don't have to be totally done it can't just be they're all fighting each other with random cameos.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's like it's me most excited.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just don't think.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, Disney, I'm sure can skew the timelines here there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the fact that Robert Dining Jr. was also trying to figure it out somewhere around 22 and 23, probably before they had fully pivoted off King.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I know King Dynasty is a pivot to doomsday.
[SPEAKER_00]: First, but somewhere in there, as you've pointed out, so many times for people who say that, King was never going to be the end of all things with secret wars because you don't tell secret wars without Dr. Doom.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So no matter what, even if it was Kang Dynasty first, Dr. Doom was going to have to be the quote unquote end game of this, if they want to tell us or worse in a way that was satisfying.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, again, I just don't think all these things happen if it's just nonchalant.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll be right back with a tiny bit of content here closing you out with X ben 97.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I had a really unique journey with this, and we haven't talked about this literally at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and we're talking about X-Men 97.
[SPEAKER_01]: We also have to talk about the other X-Men stuff out of D23.
[SPEAKER_00]: All the pastings, holy smokes, some mega episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we don't have to, there's not a ton to discuss other than the fact that we got the full cast, but we did get the X-Men.
[SPEAKER_01]: We now know who the X-Men and Mr. Sinister are.
[SPEAKER_00]: That being said, I still don't think that's even the full cast.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I think it is going to be a magneto, but they didn't share it.
[SPEAKER_00]: If there's a younger Wolverine, they didn't share it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think for reasons that are obvious, because they're going to be in doomsday, those other characters, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I don't think Jean Grey is in doomsday.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, right, that's why I think they feel safe doing that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess the big ones.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, one, it's kind of fun to see them going young, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like this they're saying that this is like the most intentionally been in forever.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we finally have the X-Men.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're waiting for this movie.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're gonna cast them really young.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're like, try to sign these people with a lifelong deals.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're getting like the original Avengers, kind of up in coming actors, not super stars for the most part yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: The big ones are indie, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, never at, never at.
[SPEAKER_01]: her rise for obsession to this, which is crazy, she's like her performance and obsession is absolutely insane.
[SPEAKER_01]: If there's any if there's any take away from that movie it is that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Saddam's driver, that's another one of these, I was just talking about K-7s, apparently Kevin has, like, famously said, you can look up these interviews, you'll look them up, that they've tried to cast Adam Driver for like six years, and he's turned him down every time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's why the announcement was a big thing because they finally have him as Mr. Sinister, which gets me really excited because not only do I think he can do that well, and he's a good actor, just with the whole iron heart stuff,
[SPEAKER_00]: kind of fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think he can I think he's he's great casting for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think Christopher Abbott isn't just really interesting casting for Xavier.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a big one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I had seen his name thrown around and I think that
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I can see it and I think it'll be a good like he's the right age to start with where like they can keep him around for a while and even if he does this for 20 years, you know, he's still going to be at the upper end of middle aged.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's I think that although it is hilarious that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Patrick Stewart and Ian McCellan were quote unquote old when they were cast.
[SPEAKER_01]: And now it's 26 years later and there's still still doing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I was, I was particularly happy about the, uh, the Emma Frost casting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just got to say it's a bunch of attractive people.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, on both guys and girls, they're not casting a bunch of people struggle on the looks department get yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: Kit Connor for for Cyclops, which is great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Candace is a big heart stopper fan.
[SPEAKER_01]: So now, both he and Joe Locke, the two leads of that show are in the MCU.
[SPEAKER_00]: I also kind of love that rogue and Emma Frost are also nerds, like any streams video games.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so does what's her name from for Emma Frost, some, some, some aura, some aura.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, have you seen her?
[SPEAKER_00]: She travels with her PlayStation 5.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've watched her videos.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's incredible.
[SPEAKER_00]: To movies.
[SPEAKER_01]: Also, she likes Hugo Weeving's niece.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think fact check that, please.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just in case.
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope she's not now.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like, I didn't think that just based on the name, but I thought, hey, and again, again, this is coming from a middle aged white man, so I don't want to sound like a prepo.
[SPEAKER_00]: She is.
[SPEAKER_01]: But, she's ego weaving's niece.
[SPEAKER_00]: You said that right after my setup.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to sound like a prepo here, but, but,
[SPEAKER_00]: Look, every iteration I've seen of Emma Frost is she's kind of a what you would call it like a seductive character, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I've never seen an iteration that's not that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I've seen it on a couple times.
[SPEAKER_00]: And was it was it was Xman 97 also the header?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it was in the comic I read astonishing Xman.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's kind of like,
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, right, she comes from this Chris Claremont era of X-Men comics that were like strangely sexual like BDSM like like he has everybody wearing like just for the record that's not where I was going with this just for the no no no no I'm being serious though he has everybody dressing in like
[SPEAKER_01]: like a lot of leather and lace.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was just a strange, like there was, whether that was Hammer John Burn or whatever, like there were a lot of these core character designs, like that's when she is introduced.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's wearing kind of this crazy outfit that, yeah, the character is astonishing.
[SPEAKER_00]: X-Men in the book, I write that's called Chris Claremont.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's Just Wheaton, but he's doing, that's an accurate, my point is it's an accurate trail of the, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: of the uh... sleeping with cyclops in that and and he's like cheating he's cheating on gene or the well or genes that together i can't remember some dead and in in astonishing xman so it's it's uh... okay so he's with her but he's with yeah he's with him uh but there's a thing in the bed comics yeah so we'll bring a thing walks in on him
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, it's, right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And anyways, anyways, she, the actress posted a couple of pictures that were very like seductive, intentionally already.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think, I'm not trying to be weird.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think they're leaning into it a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's all I'll say.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, I do think that that's a part of the character.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that the, I think they kind of, they're leaning into the fact that she almost,
[SPEAKER_01]: like weaponizes that and you like you got some of that next man first class where she's kind of like she with January Jones she's like kind of getting these men into situations where they're like vulnerable and then she can read their minds and mystique kind of does the same thing ish yeah yeah I I do think a
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm pretty excited about where the cast is, what you're saying in terms of their ages.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I think it's all so funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just like that it's so focused.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I guess it's so intentional.
[SPEAKER_01]: And other than Xavier, Xavier and Cyclops, I guess.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no, I think that's the only crossover with the kind of OG versions that we're getting in doomsday.
[SPEAKER_01]: which is smart like it's not like you're seeing a young gambit or a young night crawler.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure that that versions of night crawler for sure I bet we'll be introduced at some point in the MCU.
[SPEAKER_00]: But right and even what characters they chose.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: Cause did you tell me that like mystique?
[SPEAKER_00]: is actually not a large character in the comics, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: She was in a for Lawrence was a thing that kind of made the thing, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: She like, she's like not in the way that they, like the whole mystique and Charles thing has always been very weird to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mystique is a major villain that has kind of skewed a little
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I think uh, but anyways, I'm saying they're now, they're getting to choose like who's the core team here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, without having to rely on like the, the star power elements to to move anything forward.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I, I'm also curious on the Magneto front if they do cast him here or if that's a, if that's something where they save him for a second movie.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, didn't we see Mr. Sinister in X ben 97 season one?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, is he ever not a villain?
[SPEAKER_01]: he's a villain he's a villain and is he always an xman villain or is he ever is there crossover with like a ghost rider or like a moonlight you know because he's not really like he's not they they sort of blend some of it with the the Madeline prior stuff and in xman 97 to to make it seem like he has a bit more of a magical bent but he's not it's more uh
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like a genetic scientist.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the whole thing is he's obsessed with cyclops and gene because they have these kind of like perfect mutant genetics to create the perfect mutant kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's kind of where you get cable and his obsession with him.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's more, he will be, he's a good X-Men villain in that sense and that he is.
[SPEAKER_01]: like as they're as they're exploring what it is to be a mutant, I think to have someone that is digging into the like the DNA element of that will be interesting to kind of set up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the next stage of the MCU, like we talked about, like what's gonna set these apart from the Avengers or from any other hero groups.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think having someone like Adam Driver there like almost balancing out the side of whatever we're going to keep getting with like Metzger and the damage control folks where you have like one side that's viewing mutants as a huge threat and then you have sinister
[SPEAKER_01]: obsessed with cultivating them and manipulating them and then they're kind of caught in between that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's going to be a dynamic that we haven't explored as much in any X-Men movies that have been a lot more just kind of due mutants like try to co-exist or do they recognize their superiority and I think that this is a different kind of push and pull.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, to close us out, X-Men 97, season two is finished.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes I think about,
[SPEAKER_00]: When you put yourself out there creatively, or you're a big figure that generates a lot of passion, you get people that love something, or they hate something, and they're loud about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes that's almost a good thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: It means people are talking about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: When I really get worried, I always reference, for example, the end of the last of us, season one, and then in to season two, in that,
[SPEAKER_00]: I just started noticing like, no one was talking about this, like the finale, all of a sudden just kind of got quiet.
[SPEAKER_00]: That to me is always a little bit more of a reason to pause and be like, huh, like I felt unsettled about the finale.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now it's just not really a thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like three days later, no one in my life is referencing the last of us.
[SPEAKER_00]: Whereas, you know, seven weeks ago, it was talked about whether good or bad, hating the casting, whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like that's what happened here with X-Men 97 season two for me and you and I literally have never even shared a text.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I got four episodes of the screener.
[SPEAKER_00]: It just so happened at the four episodes of a screener was kind of the rise and fall of a apocalypse part one and two.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I geeked out, it's better than season one.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a cohesive story.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're time traveling.
[SPEAKER_00]: So now it's not only like, it's also playing with characters that I recognize, like a can in all this stuff, the conqueror and the celestial stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: When I came back, my experience was wildly different.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought that five and six, I know they're doing character work and I know it's a different kind of pace and we're not following up on the apocalypse thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it felt like we kind of just like told this story about, I can't even remember all of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's part of the problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: But like Wolverine getting his claws back and then we go over here and do something and I just remember if I'm a,
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm usually a decent gauge of the average audience just because one, I'm average and two, I don't know any of this stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't, if you're not winning me over, it's just because you're not winning me over with the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not because like I can't lean on Easter eggs with me because I don't, I don't read them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Especially with this kind of stuff, I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I just found myself not caring anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: It felt really disjointed, like I didn't even understand timeline wise where we were and why and like what we were building up with like trying to stop apocalypse in the past so that it prevents his future that don't make sense to me and then all of a sudden I felt like we
[SPEAKER_00]: abandoned that and then we like left characters for weeks at a time and then when we finally came back I did really like the sacrifice from Nightcrawler that was a great twist because I thought the twist was rogue and so they got me with that and that was moving and I'll talk about the themes that I like there but the whole thing felt really disjunct and I can't help it it made me think like oh man
[SPEAKER_00]: maybe Mike my guy, Bo De Mayo actually had more to do with the success than I gave him credit for because when she was still involved in the season, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: To some degree, but like when writing perspective at least, but I don't even know that he finished it out because he went on a Twitter an again, which I hate that he does this and I don't agree with his lifestyle.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of things that he does, I don't agree how he tears people down afterwards, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_00]: But he went on a whole thing of like this is what I was going to do with apocalypse.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you're like, yeah, he's probably right about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, it's on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think we did feel the lack of him.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say that through four episodes, I thought it was barren season one and probably the best animated thing that the MCU is done.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now it's definitely below season one for me and might be below.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's definitely below your friendly neighborhoods by the way, too.
[SPEAKER_00]: This would be like went down the rankings in my head.
[SPEAKER_01]: What did you think?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's probably right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I will say there were moments in there were moments in the season that I really enjoyed after that initial
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought the night crawler, uh, Colossus trial thing was a fun episode, uh, just kind of seeing that crawler, like, defend this, like, terrible guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just think it was kind of a good look at what makes that character unique a little bit of the, like, Matt Murdock, uh, Catholic thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like night crawler every time I see him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I like you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like the the finale there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Although I am a little bum because night crawler is one of those characters that
[SPEAKER_01]: he was not like a main like recurring cast member of the original series, like he had one maybe two appearances in the whole 90s show and then they bring it back in in a little bit in season one of X 97 but this is the first time you really see him.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was a little bit bummed to see that character gone but I thought that the sacrifice worked.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the other thing I liked, and I feel like I was maybe in the minority here, I had fun with that Wolverine getting us close back episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just in a weird way that felt really, but that may be an nostalgia thing for me, because it felt like an old school X-min 97 episode or X-Men from the 90s episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also just like,
[SPEAKER_01]: I like the Wolverine Morph dynamic.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought that they did some interesting stuff there.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like the kind of dread of showing up in the lab and all these bodies and what happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there's an alien invasion.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just kind of campy and fun in a certain way.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I think for me, it did start to feel a little disjoined.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that a lot of what they were introducing
[SPEAKER_01]: that I thought had promised the beginning of the season.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not that it went poorly, but I don't know that it really got me super invested once at all materialized.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I thought at the beginning, one of the episodes we talked about with, like, X-Factor and
[SPEAKER_01]: like the Jubilee breakout scene and stuff like that with with havoc and Lorna, I thought was cool, but the further we went on, like, I just don't know that I ever got invested in Lorna as a character, uh, I'm not sure that word.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, and that's what I meant by like all of a sudden, no one's talking about XP97 anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it feels like people just weren't invested in general.
[SPEAKER_01]: And part of that also is that is the weird timing like it's coming out as brand new day comes out during San Diego Comic-Con and yeah, and doomsday's trailer and
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's just like, how are you going to compete?
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think, but still, but still, because that show had like a cult following.
[SPEAKER_00]: It still does, I think.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think you were kind of, uh, man.
[SPEAKER_01]: The other weird thing that I, I think would have struck you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought about this would have struck you as very strange, uh, and this is one, this is one way where I think
[SPEAKER_01]: was not as nimble as season one and that I always thought they did a really good job of paying off the easter eggs, of doing callbacks to the first season without isolating the people that weren't that weren't familiar with that stuff like without kind of leaving them on the outside feeling like there's some bigger thing that they don't get
[SPEAKER_01]: the episode where they go to the swamp and in Louisiana and and they like summon the I forget what they call her.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like Apocalypse's like brighter or whatever her actual name is that is a that is like a plot line from the original series.
[SPEAKER_01]: like the where they have these like thieves and assassins guilds in the swamp in Louisiana and that's where gambits from and you get this kind of like background episode where he you find out more about where he comes from and what
[SPEAKER_01]: like led to him becoming an X-Men, but it's one of the weirder episodes of the original series, and it's something that didn't really explore like the external, like who the external is, why she's there, why you have like these different guilds kind of quasi-worshiping her.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was kind of clever for them to merge her with the apocalypse narrative,
[SPEAKER_01]: but I also have to imagine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I didn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a very strange thing to not like, they didn't give a lot of context there for what was already one of the weirder parts of the mythology.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm debating if I should say this or not because it really delegimizes me.
[SPEAKER_00]: But on that episode specifically, I think I fell asleep.
[SPEAKER_00]: For a little bit because I you know like you ever have that really like you don't I don't know if you like fall asleep, but all of a sudden like I'm the like the episode's kind of ending and I was like Hmm, I'm not sure I could tell you everything But yes, I remember thinking that was strange but part of the disconnect is if my mind was even if I was like foggy I was not fully present The example for me would be the danger room
[SPEAKER_00]: because I read that comic right I thought about this a lot because the comic you know by nature it's not like a long overarching story right in the in the comics like it is kind of a which is a story it's a couple issues like here's this thing but even then in the comics it felt like I don't know I as a reader I felt like it was such a built-up threat
[SPEAKER_00]: And it all kind of made sense to me here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, oh, they're doing it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, ran upstairs, got the comics to show on a cook.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, you for seconds.
[SPEAKER_00]: Look at this, this is crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, shout out what they're doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then I was like, oh, but it's over.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that didn't, I guess my point is, I didn't have the same feeling at all that I had reading it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what's the disconnect there?
[SPEAKER_00]: I couldn't have something around that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That I think, I,
[SPEAKER_01]: That's I'm glad you brought that up.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was such an interesting example of directing some, or of adapting something shop for shot, where it's like you, you maintain the form without the substance, because, yeah, it looked, it was so similar in so many ways, and it was cool to see all of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was an homage to the comics for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the thing that I think makes that story really interesting is there's this moral dilemma at the center of it where you find out that the reason the danger room is able to gain sentience in that way is because Xavier has pulled in this technology.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's something, you know, way back.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know what run that's supposed to have happened in.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you don't have to know that.
[SPEAKER_01]: They kind of explain at some point he upgraded the danger room.
[SPEAKER_01]: And since that time, because he's a telepath, he has known that it had gained some level of sentience.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he didn't do anything about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he kept treating the danger room as just a tool.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as a result, it eventually got to this point
[SPEAKER_01]: it had enough autonomy to start like killing mutants within the school and fighting the X-Men and became this massive threat and at the very end of the arc, you have the reveal where the rest of the X-Men learned that Xavier knew this the whole time and didn't do anything about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they basically like expel him from the team,
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so the impact like way larger.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's a much bigger kind of like, and it's not that like, oh, he's off the team forever as much as like that's the impact as much as it is just the emotional hit of like this is supposed to be our moral center like this is the guy that we're following that has the dream and he's done this kind of
[SPEAKER_01]: shady thing yeah and and like whether or not you feel like it was shady for what for him to do what he did to the like the sentient danger room it was certainly shady in that he never
[SPEAKER_01]: told anybody what was going on and then it escalated to this point where now people have been seriously hurt and and they pulled all of that out from the show like there's no you don't get any sense of why the danger room is so that's why I probably didn't read it the same way that was how it felt for me like it was like oh that's cool but if I hadn't like if I hadn't read that comic
[SPEAKER_01]: and probably the same for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: It would just sort of be like, well, if you hadn't even watched that episode, what do you really learn?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you don't learn more about Charles.
[SPEAKER_00]: You just because you because because that's gone.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't think differently at Charles.
[SPEAKER_00]: You just think it went off the rails.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it was, and then they kind of defeat or pretty, or hit it pretty easily.
[SPEAKER_00]: So then it's also like,
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, to me, that felt pretty side story-ish.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, they were just trying to recreate that without any of the lasting consequences.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how, and I think that that is a good way of, that was kind of a sense that I had for a lot of the season two stuff, like it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It felt like it was a similar form to season one, but whereas in season one, I thought that they were blending some things and really surprising and moving ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: Season one was better.
[SPEAKER_00]: Way more connected.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, I thought the ANC's in one still did a bunch of stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, yeah, not sure if you have the genosha stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you then still got, like, bashing and Mr. Sinister and like you, they still went to space and they still went back to Edo again at the end.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Wolverine at a Manteem stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think the other thing, and this is maybe a, this is more controversial.
[SPEAKER_01]: They have they have made like rogue it was like the the rogue gambit stuff that that like the rogue gambit Magneto stuff in season one became such an emotional driver because of gambits moment in that episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: that like sometimes I feel like you see that and it's like oh that works now we now we need to like really lean into that right in this next season and it just never even that was weird like we could it was with the consequences like and I just don't know that I like I know that there's some
[SPEAKER_01]: comics stuff there, but I don't know that I needed Gambit housing like the soul of Apocalypse and then, right, I didn't even fully understand the mechanics of that to be totally transparent.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't understand like what it meant for Rogue to have that like bit of Apocalypse's
[SPEAKER_01]: power because it's like she had it and then she went to convene with the Celestial who then took it from her, but then gave her the kind of like apocalypse power anyway, so then I'm not sure why it really mattered that she had the, see the Celestial was cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: The same image that was tunnels.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought that was cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I really like them ending the whole thing with this cool idea of wrestling with faith.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that night crawler like was like stuck to his guns all the way to the end, you know, made like the ultimate sacrifice even with these flawed people.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought that was really beautiful.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the little montage of him narrating it and showing all the X men whose lives have been affected now, I thought was really powerful.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I want to say that as a positive, I did think that was good.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought there were some cool visuals.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the other, I thought, yeah, I thought the writing got skewed a little cheesy in some of the episodes of season two, but I, I also think part of it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: you, they were dealing with so much kind of high sci-fi magic that in any time you're resurrecting people, it's just gonna get tricky.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I do think in what they're setting up for season three, it seems like it have a lot of potential to re-ground things because it seems like they're
[SPEAKER_01]: They're focusing more on the political, you know, and now there's this guy that's president that hates mutants.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, seeing mystique and stuff like that, like I feel like that's a room for them to course correct.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just, I am,
[SPEAKER_01]: I think both of us are famously not huge fans of the What If shows and it does make me a little bit nervous that some of the folks that are steering this creatively are our people that marvel has kept from that team and it's yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wish they would this is no better than what if right this this is for sure for sure all those other to the better But I just mean moving forward if we're getting less of the the like both may have stuff I wish that they would instead pull from like Whoever is involved with your friendly neighborhood spider man if they have any time on their hands to come cuz like
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this is this is way to extreme.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so way over bloom, but as time goes on, it weirdly kind of makes me even appreciate Kevin even more in that it feels like I'm not trying to disparage anybody, but it's starting to feel like, you know, he gave this stuff over to Brad, Linda Baum.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not criticizing Brad I'm just saying like this is no, this is no longer Kevin's baby the animated side of TV.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think he's like, I think he's working about these like fact checking like Brad is the one that goes to the premiere.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's the one that speaks for it does all the interviews.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think I just like Kevin five.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like every instinct that Kevin has, I think for me,
[SPEAKER_00]: lines up with what I would do or like what I think is the right call most of the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, I think that during all the drama of those previous years, it was the lack of Kevin, like Kevin getting stretched too thin, not anybody else, just Kevin not being able to speak into like where we're going.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's probably where I land.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, and even just having one hand,
[SPEAKER_01]: one kind of final hand on the wheel when it's all said and done.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think is important to kind of maintain some creative consistency.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's just like the most perfect person for this that he's humble.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like doesn't need the attention, but he's a genius as Chris for no one calls him the greatest film producer in history.
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh-huh.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, because he says that he talks about the Robert Dungeon you're thinking, like, how like, yeah, he built this whole thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, he calls him producer, not director, you know, but sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but he's a fan.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yet he's humble, but he knows the source material, but it's like, open to acknowledging that there are better people than him at making movies.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I mean, no one's ever, no one's ever done what literally no one's ever done anything close to what he's done.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I even think about like James gun like Kevin, there's a huge difference that Kevin's not trying to work his way into directing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying it's bad.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just saying he's chosen the route of like I'm fine to just be behind the scenes making the calls.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, someone else can make a better movie than me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I anyway, I say, wow, I want to change it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But no, but I, but I will say and then we have to go because we're already going way longer than we thought, but just because we're talking about animated stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have not finished it, but I did, I'm like halfway through the second season of Batman Cape Crusader, which is the Amazon Prime show that was originally HBO and then got canceled and all that stuff and picked back up.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting watching this after X-Men because I just think it's so much better.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's just a reminder that there are tears and sometimes it's like, oh yeah, like this is pretty good.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's animated, you know, I'm not gonna feel as much about it as I would live action stuff, y'all y'all, but then I watch something like this or like, invincible, where I think it is every bit as good as some of the live action stuff that I really love.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just, yeah, I think it's,
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you are someone that likes kind of keeping up with this stuff, weirdly and never notes into the spidervers for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think what's so strange is like, I never know why people do this certain ways, but like Amazon just like quietly dropped at this entire season.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's such a bummer to me because, I think it's an improvement on season one, which I thought was maybe, I remember, also came out around the same time as X-Men 97, and to me was clearly not at the level of X-Men 97 season one.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then now you have this season that I think is really great.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think when you talk about no one talking about the end of X from 97.
[SPEAKER_01]: I bet a lot of people that are listening to this right now were not even aware that there is a season two of this batman show that is fully on Amazon for you to watch right now and the word it's always just a bummer to me when when you have something that's really great and there are no eyes on it I think our friends at sons of gun podcasts are talking about that show so I think they are go check them out
[SPEAKER_00]: And also lanterns is on right now not on the animated side and I think they're talking about that too I need to subscribe to HBO because I don't currently so I haven't seen the first episode I think that's week by week though, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you would like it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a great first episode
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, man, we have some we're at a hundred minutes and there's still things we could talk about.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, we didn't talk about Spider-Man at all because both you and I have family and it's been very difficult.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Still, I don't do even have shirts left in my mind like selling something that we don't have.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we have like under 20.
[SPEAKER_00]: The only problem is I only have like smalls and extra smalls in me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so girls out there or kids out there go buy some extra smalls because I have a couple of those.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'd love to sell them all any free super soldier Steve Rogers.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, if you're out there and you look like him, just wait.
[SPEAKER_00]: Although that's way too small for what he should look like.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think I have maybe a couple of largest or the opposite.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have double axis.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, you, anyways, get your shirt.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're gonna try to see the movie I hope.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think both of us in the next week or so, so maybe next week will be coming back.
[SPEAKER_00]: We can finally do a full reflection on Spider-Man, which is probably good because that probably should be at separate episodes for spoilers and for us to really flesh out.
[SPEAKER_00]: What we're talking about there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: But anyways, so that's probably next week.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't hold us to it yet because I haven't seen it again.
[SPEAKER_00]: And at this point, it's been almost a month now since we saw it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I have to probably see it again before I talk about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for subscribing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Check out our YouTube channel.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're trying to grow that over there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I made some fun videos.
[SPEAKER_00]: One about Yelena.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you just watch Spider-Man and you like what you saw, go check out our YouTube page and then check out friends from work plus, consider supporting this podcast financially.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I have a really fun episode you and I are about to record here sometime in the next day or so, I think people are going to really like.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's basically my hottest takes.
[SPEAKER_00]: We do these episodes where I give Kyle's lists.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I want to basically go, these are my hottest takes from my rewatch journey so far.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to ask you just to react to them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to give you a scale on a scale like scolding hot to something.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm still working on that.
[SPEAKER_00]: You tell me how hot I take that is.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you can give a little blur about each one, okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's a fun way to kind of look back on the rewatch and the multiverse saga without really going to every movie.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, wow, sorry.
[SPEAKER_00]: Friends and work plus, get your T-shirt at theFFw5Guess.com, and then we'll see you next week here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm friends.