[SPEAKER_00]: We're live!
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome everybody to another episode of Positively Unready on the Positively Trek podcast and on Kirtrans Productions on YouTube.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you all for joining us.
[SPEAKER_00]: We are Abba.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Dan Gunther and with me of course is Brandy Jackalow Brandy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hi, you're doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm doing gray a little scared a little scared a little creep down a little weird this little scared little just oh no I said just moved it okay no no yeah basically there were many times during this episode we're about to cover where I was like nope nope no no no no no no
[SPEAKER_00]: a quick note, Barry unfortunately could not make it today.
[SPEAKER_00]: He has contracted the flu, I hope he is, which is not good.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, wishing him a speedy recovery, so you couldn't make this one, but hopefully we'll be back next week.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, in the meantime this week, we are talking about
[SPEAKER_00]: and a bit of a departure for a Star Trek episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we'll get into this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to go on record right now and say that this is the scariest episode of Star Trek ever.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I will agree with that horror or at least creepy vibes is something Star Trek has tried to do, I think, over the years, to varying degrees of success, some better than others.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, this is definitely the most like jumping in with both feet, horror,
[SPEAKER_00]: Watch as a few horror movies here and there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I definitely am not a horror movie buff.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not an enthusiast.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't tend to watch a lot of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: This creeped the crap out of me and in all the best ways and all those ways that you feel like, I love getting a good scare kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I really enjoyed it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Cards on the table to start with, I guess, but brandy you are a bit of a horror enthusiast though.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I love horror movies.
[SPEAKER_00]: Awesome.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm really curious about your perspective on this then so this will be fun for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, the thing about horror movies for me is that they scare me and yet I still watch them.
[SPEAKER_01]: I still want them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes you just need to be scared and and I
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't do the really gory stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't do like the body horse stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not my thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not my favorite thing, but yeah, give me a good ghost story and I will be freaked out for a good couple of days.
[SPEAKER_00]: Awesome.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, let's get right into the story.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we start out with Kirk Spock and La On, and they are apparently returning from the the future Federation leaders retreat, because of course there, of course that's something that a young Kirk would be at.
[SPEAKER_00]: And these other two, I could see them being, you know,
[SPEAKER_00]: whatever being uh... i can't think of a word but you know wanting to be a part of that kind of thing but this is totally a curc thing absolutely i just i kind of chuckled it that yet only two and i was just so excited to see to see curc again i'm like yeah curc episode absolutely love it
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I loved, I keep seeing comments every time Paul Wesley returns his Kirk people comment like oh Kirk's back again, oh my god, and I kind of want to be like you know where this show is headed right like, yeah, it's like what is wrong with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And and why are you complaining about Kirk in general.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: wasn't Kirk the OG.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and like I have to say like Paul Wesley as Kirk I think has always been really good.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've really enjoyed his performances.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say this episode in particular, even divorcing him from the question of like, is he like William Schattering or Kirk or not, like divorcing himself from that?
[SPEAKER_00]: This is just an incredible performance period in this episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, he is making the character of Kirk his own and in this episode, I just think he puts in a masterful masterful performance like, um, jumping around the episode, but in particular him digging in the console because he thinks his son is in there.
[SPEAKER_00]: He hears David's voice, uh, crying underneath the console and just the like the breakdown he has from that, uh, those those so good.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was totally invested in that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, yeah, I would I love Paul Wesley is Kirk.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to see a Kirk in strange new worlds But when Paul Wesley came on I'm just like okay, let's give this guy a chance and like the second time I see him in something.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just like yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: He is Kirk for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah
[SPEAKER_00]: definitely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Patrick, I was hoping somebody would bring this up because I do love that meme that there's this old style pocket books cover that somebody has mocked up and the title is why are you always on my ship and it's Pike Saving his chair kind of looking like this and perk off to decide.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's fantastic.
[SPEAKER_00]: So good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Whoops.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, Nathan absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love Paul Wesley's portrayal of Kirk in this episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: He is absolutely amazing for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: I should take this moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: I haven't done it yet to shout out the regulars and the newcomers in the comments.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you guys so much for joining us.
[SPEAKER_00]: I see Nathan.
[SPEAKER_00]: I see Patrick.
[SPEAKER_00]: I see Dave.
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you all so much for joining.
[SPEAKER_00]: We really appreciate you guys showing up and taking part in the conversation for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, they detect this distress call and it turns out to be this long missing ship, the USS Griffin that's kind of adrift in this asteroid field.
[SPEAKER_00]: There were all these theories as to what happened to the ship but they don't really match what they're seeing here, which is a fully intact ship that seems perfectly fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, they beam on board to investigate and like there's gravity and like there's no reason there should be gravity Uh, the power inexplicably comes on.
[SPEAKER_00]: It just seems like Why is this ship been missing?
[SPEAKER_00]: What's going on here?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that and it's like so far away from its last sighting.
[SPEAKER_01]: So where's it been all that time?
[SPEAKER_01]: And how did it get in this field?
[SPEAKER_01]: And just so many questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, this is the second time we get a reference to Division 12.
[SPEAKER_01]: The first time was in terrarium.
[SPEAKER_01]: And let's just call it the X files.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because that's what they do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what they do.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want, yeah, like, Molder and Scully to be back at wherever they're located, looking into this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Molder, it's just a ship.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, there's nothing strange about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Come on, Scully.
[SPEAKER_01]: It never underestimate a person's ability to downplay the supernatural and try to come up with some logical explanation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes there is no logical explanation and that's this entire episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there is no logical explanation to any of it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, are none that we're able to, hopefully maybe division 12 can figure it out, but it's interesting that the episode leaves it ambiguous because, and we'll get there.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll get to the end because that's a lot of people having that issue with this episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's Star Trek always explains and this one doesn't explain and I'm like, that's kind of realistic to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you're not going to figure everything out in an hour every time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, that's just not how that works.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I guess I'll jump to one of my main feces about this episode that I had, which is, is there a huge fundamental difference between this episode not figuring out the exact explanation for what caused everything and something like an ex-generation episode saying, oh, well, it was an antifasic life form.
[SPEAKER_00]: What does that tell you?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh, they figured it out,
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, how is that different from like techno babble explanation versus no explanation?
[SPEAKER_00]: I would contend their both as valuable.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: I honestly like that there was no explanation.
[SPEAKER_01]: And because that's that's some of the best horror that there can be is you not knowing and thinking about it for days after you've seen it, which is what I have done.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, like, there will be people out there that argue they took the lazy way out by not giving an explanation, but my whole point in what I said earlier was like, there's no difference between like the writers going, oh, okay, well, let's string together some technical Bible words and and have everybody on screen look really smug that they figured it all out like there's not there's no difference between that and saying like we don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: We made a bunch of weird stuff happen on screen.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: It makes me worry though about division 12, because I don't know if they've ever come up against something like this, and maybe the ship takes them to.
[SPEAKER_00]: If not a spinoff series because that seems unlikely, obviously, I take a five part comic mini series about division 12.
[SPEAKER_01]: Me too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's let's see that.
[SPEAKER_00]: That'd be great.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like Dave, it was black mold.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That explains everything in the haunting.
[SPEAKER_01]: You got to tell a vision series, not the movie.
[SPEAKER_00]: Love it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, man.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, we've got this unexplained phenomena.
[SPEAKER_00]: They see this crew member walking around the corridor and disappears around the corner, just leaving behind a negatively
[SPEAKER_00]: It's very strange.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to basically sum up a lot of this episode with.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's very strange.
[SPEAKER_01]: Put my glasses on so I remunotes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, um, the fact that, uh, they split the party.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't split it off.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't split it off.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, when you're in a situation where everything is unknown, you do not split up.
[SPEAKER_01]: You stay together.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is the dumbest thing you can do.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the three very intelligent people that are on the ship do that very thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm just like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Nope, and the only thing I can think of is that maybe the ship is already doing its work on them.
[SPEAKER_01]: The minute they be min.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think it is because
[SPEAKER_00]: there's a moment later in the episode when like Spock finally snaps out of it and I think that's the first time we see the actual reality and like he's so rounded by all of these bodies in sick bay at that time.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think from the moment they got on board like whatever was affecting them was just like shrouding what the reality around them was right from the get-go.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, which again makes it one of those episodes that's a little bit tough to kind of talk about sometimes because how many times in the next generation did they, you know, oh, the episodes over and it turns out that three quarters of it was in Troy's mind or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, well, these things that I pointed out as mistakes are not mistakes because she was imagining them now.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's an interesting thing because I don't know how the three of them come through this without needing therapy.
[SPEAKER_00]: absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's going to bring me to something that I want to talk about at the end, which is an unfortunate pattern in strange new worlds that drives me nuts.
[SPEAKER_00]: Even this episode being so completely different than anything we've seen before, follows this pattern that I really want to criticize a bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm hoping they're setting something up that like,
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, the chickens come home to roost or whatever the same because like.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, basically, bunch of stuff happens, they end up all splitting up, Kirk and Lawn initially go to the bridge, and then Lawn leaves him and goes to engineering.
[SPEAKER_00]: Meanwhile, Spock's left behind in Sick Bay, and they all have their own interesting encounters, I guess.
[SPEAKER_00]: Who do you want to start with?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, flip a coin.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, no, that's three people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, you've choose.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's start with Spock, I guess, because as far as imagery goes, I think this is the most disturbing imagery part.
[SPEAKER_00]: and probably I would guess the parts that people would have the biggest problem with as far as Gore and that sort of thing goes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Spock is working alone in sick bay.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the body bags that's there that he saw was for a Vulcan crew member.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, all the body bags fill up behind him without him seeing, and this one in particular unzips and sits up in unzips and it's to pring, which is psychologically revealing, I guess, for spock at this moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, the weird thing is, is that when the, the body started filling in, if I may, and filling with blood, and a lot of them, just, no, I don't want to see that, but I do want to see that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's, that's the thing about horror.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to see that, but I do want to see that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do want to see that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you'll put your hands in front of your eyes, but then you'll crack them open a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there was there was basically just through the episode of a lot of me just going, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope,
[SPEAKER_00]: Anything weird happened to you lately.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the thing though, but how would she have gotten there?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, how would you got there and yeah, you know, like her explanation that she was doing this and then all the sudden she's here and I'm like I'd never for one moment believed it was actually to bring Yeah, I believed that it was a manifestation that
[SPEAKER_01]: what actually is going on there, that's something that the ship manifested because it was the, probably the one thing that would unnerve Spock even more, to have her sitting up in a body bag and saying, Hi.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this ship knows how to unnerve people, to really get into their psyche and best around.
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I tend to agree.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think everything was in their minds, but caused by something, some outside force on the Griffin kind of thing, whether that's black mold or anything else.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just call it black mold.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's some strong heavy space black mold.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so really feeding into a lot of Spock's psychological stuff, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like to bring removing his vulcanness, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And the really disturbing, you know, cutting the tips off his ears and going to cut into his side to remove his heart and put it in the place where it should be for a human and
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, yeah, disturbing imagery, I think, but, but really well done.
[SPEAKER_01]: Agreed.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, it could have been worse.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, they could have gone for a bigger, gore factory, gore factor, but I, I'm glad that they didn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad that there wasn't any actual cutting into his abdomen to move the hearts.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that would have been a step too far for Star Trek.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I think they cut it at the right point with the hers just starting to cut his shirt, but never gets to the point of actually slicing him open that way.
[SPEAKER_00]: We do get a shot though of Luna kind of doing that to our self later, which was really disturbing to me as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, just and just oh, there is, hmm.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, um, there's a lot of disturbing stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, I'm here for it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I feel like this is a real, this is a really polarizing one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I've seen online and no like no hate to anybody who honestly, like I've seen a lot of people saying things like I watch this once and I will probably never watch it again.
[SPEAKER_00]: um, like they enjoyed it, but like, don't too disturbing, never gonna watch it again, totally respect that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, yeah, it's, it's disturbing, it's tough and, and they pushed the envelope here, I think, for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, and definitely watching it again on Halloween.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah, I've seen it twice.
[SPEAKER_00]: the same.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I guess this kind of ties into some of the stuff that happens in the rest of the story, but we have an away team or a boarding party supposedly join them of you know, Pike
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, it's Pike and Uno who come across Spock, supposedly, and very quickly by this point.
[SPEAKER_00]: I already suspected immediately, but it was like, I could go either way, but of course, by this point, by the time they get with Spock, you're like, yeah, don't be certain.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is not real.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, some pretty disturbing imagery with Pike and his
[SPEAKER_00]: That was a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: This sound.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, the minute they beam down board, I'm like, there is no way in hell.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were close enough to this place, to get there in that amount of time and be on board, just especially with
[SPEAKER_01]: function of the ship, not actually working here and there, like it works when it wants to.
[SPEAKER_01]: By the way, just for kicks and giggles, I wanna just briefly call out that warp core flashing red, like lightning patterns.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's dark and then it's surges red and then it flickers and then it goes dark again.
[SPEAKER_01]: Creepy as hell.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, okay, we'll come back to Spock because that's kind of the lynch pin that that undoes everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that we finally kind of see what's what's going on.
[SPEAKER_00]: But let's go to Jim Kirk, next, I guess.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this was honestly the part of the story that I connected with the most.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I thought Paul Wesley was perfect in this and like I was
[SPEAKER_00]: I was very much invested in his point of view and what he's seeing and hearing and feeling.
[SPEAKER_00]: Played so well here, so from pretty much the first moment they get on board the ship, he's hearing this like baby crying in the distance.
[SPEAKER_00]: And from some of the stuff that comes up in dialogue, you know what's on his mind, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: His son David, who is born at some point between this episode and subspace your absentee, because he mentions Carol being pregnant, then, you know, his kid is on his mind.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he was supposed to go visit him, but went to this conference instead.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's purchased this little, this little chatchki
[SPEAKER_00]: a vision of Sam for a cool say later to kind of, you know, be there for him when he's not actually there for him, kind of repeating a pattern, I guess that his father did and does with the two Kirk boys, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, all of this was just felt very real to me, very, like deeply,
[SPEAKER_00]: real psychological issues that people can tend with, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And this would of course be on his mind and what's affecting him.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so many times in this, like I already mentioned, him digging through the console to get at this kid who just like disappeared, oh my God, just terrifying, absolutely loved it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you just see, you don't really see anything but one little arm coming out and I'm just like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't know how they decided to make this episode, but the writers, holy cow, you know who, you know what is going to get people, because you got me, you got me big time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I was unsettled for quite some time afterward.
[SPEAKER_01]: That didn't stop me from excitedly watching it again yesterday.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, so it's well, Kirk's on the bridge that this, this boarding party supposedly beams aboard and like immediately my eyebrows going up.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, it could go either way, but I'm really leaning to this not being real.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um,
[SPEAKER_00]: But that said, it's kind of almost sad that it's not real because some of those moments between Jim and Sam were so good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the connection between the two of them as brothers, I think, is something that...
[SPEAKER_00]: we see here and there and it's mostly played as, you know, a bit of jealousy, a bit of rivalry, but like I really bought these two as brothers in the scene again.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not actually Sam.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what are we doing here?
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I'm talking about his dad, which is really Kirk talking to himself about his dad and then how he's being a dad or not being a dad in this moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the horror moment of the view screen, the window breaking and sambing pulled up against it, kind of violating a bit of what we know of like the physics of that would actually be, but still wonderfully horrific and
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep, that reminded me of, and it was a term of movie that I only watched once, Alien 4.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, but that creature actually needed to be so tired to the thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, because that, that was an abomination.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, yeah, I, I don't like creepy denginate.
[SPEAKER_01]: It scares me.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's just, he's so good at being the nice guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, he's been in a ton of hallmark movies and a couple of hallmark series guest stars.
[SPEAKER_01]: And seeing him like this was just like, oh, you do have range, buddy, you were making me uncomfortable.
[SPEAKER_01]: There you go.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And now, back to the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I will say there's a couple of little cheats that are done in this episode to make you think that any mean by this point, you know Sam, if you know Star Trek history, you know Sam Kirk survive.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you know by this point for sure that he's not real, but in his death, for example, we get that shot of him tumbling through space.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, if this is all in Kirk's mind, of course, he can't see that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I kind of explained it away by seeing like that's in his mind's eye.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that's what he's imagining is happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: The other little cheat that's kind of funny is when you think about it is they make you think that the landing party is real by even though they appear in front of Kirk.
[SPEAKER_00]: We see the same people that came aboard in the landing party, visiting the other people in the rest of the ship.
[SPEAKER_00]: which you know it's a little if it's all in their minds if it's all created psychologically that's just an amazing coincidence if it's created by an outside force to you know do something to them okay there's a bit more of an explanation there but i did notice on the secondary watch i was like
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: Those wouldn't necessarily have to be the same people if they're just seeing it in their mind kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it is a little bit of a trick to make you in the audience think that they're actually really there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep, never once, never once believed it.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, as I said, I was suspecting immediately, but that allowed me to see those little tricks that they're doing to try and make you think that's like, oh, that's interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: It makes this whole episode makes you.
[SPEAKER_01]: wonder what's real, what's not.
[SPEAKER_01]: Even as we're watching the episode, we don't know what's real and what's not other than the three people who beam Dawn board.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those are the three people that we know are real.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everything else up for grabs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like Harper, Harper is this woman who keeps appearing and I don't know what has been done to her and I don't know that I want to know
[SPEAKER_01]: what has been done to her, or is she just an avatar for whatever this?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know what to call it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Consciousness, this entity is just using to connect with the people that it's now captured.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because Harper plays mostly into lawns experiences and, you know, it could, you could say that she's a construction of lawns, but all three of them do see her in that very beginning part, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So there is something there.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's either a shared hallucination or something effecting all of them kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I give in Star Trek's history and you know, malevolent entities out there would lean towards that explanation more than the it's all just in their heads kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, what is Harper?
[SPEAKER_00]: What's going on there?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is this an actual crew member who has been changed somehow or is this just like a persona that whatever this malevolent thing has taken on or something like we don't know?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, seeing her in the end by the way in that viewport as the ship is getting towed away and by this point you would assume on is you know on the enterprise and away from whatever influence there is depending on how localized it is I guess Presumably she's not imagining that presumably that's not in her mind so I don't know
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep, that's the thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was the thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think just for the audience just to go, hey, you don't know as much as you think you do, and oh, and there was this one scene earlier, like when they were all still together and I think it was was it in engineering, I can't remember, but in the background, you just see this contorted figure walk across
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was that was in the corridor.
[SPEAKER_00]: They were just walking down the corridor and it was in the background That was That got me and like I forget what I was doing, but I was watching and I just kind of started to look away as it happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like Like I was the timing of it Yep, that was one of those things where I'm just like, ah, yes, well done
[SPEAKER_01]: We watched the screener, of course, it was great to actually have the subtitles.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got a lot more from having the subtitles because sometimes you just can't understand what they're saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you think you hear one thing turns out to be another.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, take any movie that you've ever, that you like, that you haven't watched for a while and watch it with subtitles and you will be surprised at some of the things you find out that you thought you knew and didn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, that whole, and that's the thing is Harper, because you see the logs of Harper getting more and more.
[SPEAKER_01]: insane or is she the only sane one?
[SPEAKER_01]: And everybody else around her is going nuts due to whatever force is acting upon them.
[SPEAKER_01]: We probably won't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
[SPEAKER_00]: So
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay, so Lawn's story, we've had the kind of fear of her augmented genome, maybe that will lead her to become some sort of psychotic despotic killer or something, which is a fear that's on her mind given what has happened recently and of course that informs kind of what's going on here.
[SPEAKER_00]: that was disturbing holy macro lawn when she takes that turn and just gets that rickness of a grin as like, well, um, boy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_00]: She needs to sit down with a counselor or something at this point.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like this is where I'll bring up what I was talking about.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like Pike?
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, don't, don't leave stuff out of your log.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't, you did it for whoera last season when you knew she was fudging the numbers and you just let it go.
[SPEAKER_00]: You did it.
[SPEAKER_00]: countless times, even the last episode, although on order of Starfleet command, you left a bunch of stuff out of your log.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: But like this is really becoming a pattern here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Come on, dude.
[SPEAKER_00]: This needs to be documented.
[SPEAKER_00]: Somehow, I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know we love Lawn, and I know she's, you know, a good person.
[SPEAKER_00]: But like, you got a document this dude.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, she fell on stabbed Kirk.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know she was under the influence.
[SPEAKER_00]: Put that in your report.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, no, covering things up is never.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's never going to be a good way to handle things.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she was being acted upon by an outside force.
[SPEAKER_01]: She wasn't in control of her own actions.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's no reason why that shouldn't have gone in the log.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, I guess the fear would be that they would, you know, take her off of active duty and examine her and to which I say could, maybe examine her, maybe have some, you know, experts, maybe at Division 12 who dealt with something like this before, maybe.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, like, use the resources you have, like, don't cover this up.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not, that's not a good thing
[SPEAKER_01]: Nope.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really not.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the thing with Lawn is, and being worried about, you know, having some kind of programming within her genes trigger, here's the thing that I think people don't remember a lot of the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can choose your own behavior.
[SPEAKER_01]: that if you know you have something inside you that because possibly be a ticking time bomb and you're aware of that, that's a really big step forward because you're aware of it and you can make choices.
[SPEAKER_01]: to act a different way, to behave a different way, do different things that will keep you from whatever this thing might trigger.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have a choice, and she did not choose.
[SPEAKER_01]: She let it happen to her.
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, like, let's think of like not only how it would affect lawn, but how it would affect other people, like, would not putting that in the report give division 12 a little bit more to go on and like give them some warning when they're dealing with this ship that like, hey, this thing happened with this crew member.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe there's some extra precautions they could take that they won't otherwise do now that they don't have that piece of information, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, ah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, like I said, I hope those chickens come home to roost.
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope there's some kind of like acknowledgement that Pike has this pattern and it's not great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I kind of understand part of it because his future is coming ever closer and I think that that is part of the reason why he's holding people close while he can and shielding them while he can.
[SPEAKER_01]: But again,
[SPEAKER_01]: Starfleet needs to know this crap dude.
[SPEAKER_01]: Come on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, I mean, minor complaint and actually, like I said, it's kind of consistent with how his character's been, so I can't even complain about it on that front.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep, there's that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, we should talk about some of the stuff that's coming up in the comments as well, because there's some really interesting stuff in here.
[SPEAKER_00]: First of all, this, you know, image of Sam Kirk talking about how David is going to die, you know, in some corner of space at the end of a blade, or like, yep, he sure does.
[SPEAKER_00]: Was that, oh, that was your right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm jumping around here in my notes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, law on telling that to Kirk.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was terrifying and horrifying.
[SPEAKER_00]: And also, just the fact that she says to him that Kirk will die alone.
[SPEAKER_00]: And
[SPEAKER_00]: like I love continuity bits that like inform how other things look to me now in Star Trek 5 when Kirk says, I've always known.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll die alone.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like remembering what I'm telling him that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, and especially like I wonder if and my brain goes to all these places, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I wonder if he hadn't really thought about it that much until David died the way he did and then that all came flooding back to him and he's like, oh my god.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now he's like, I'm going to die alone because of what one said and that's probably stuck with him.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just like I like filling in those little bits that, you know, maybe they writers didn't even intend, but I like that it kind of retroactively does that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but technically Kirk did not die alone.
[SPEAKER_01]: The card was there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, yeah, but he didn't know that in Star Trek 5.
[SPEAKER_00]: He just remembered what Laan told him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but it didn't come to pass.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it didn't die alone.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly, but the David thing did, which I think we were going to give him pause, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: That was one of those moments in Star Trek where I just wanted to let out a primal scream.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I saw that in the theater with my family.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I was traumatized by that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean like you said Kirk doesn't die alone.
[SPEAKER_00]: So like maybe this, you know, maybe there's nothing really like time bending or supernatural involved in that part of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was just the entity or lawn or whatever messing with him and just happened to hit something right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Really probably creeped
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, will the dice see, do you see what happens?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: What else can we talk about here?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we've hit most of the stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Disturbing stuff, I guess.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, some of the stuff didn't hit as hard as it could have because, again, I knew that the away team was fake.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, Pike cutting his fingers was disturbing, lawn, killing, uh, Uhura, and, um, or take us, killing or take us in the transport
[SPEAKER_01]: it's just another way to set law on our balance.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was about.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, um, there's something that I was going to say and I'm trying to remember what it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Alright, there was one actually one scene that made me laugh.
[SPEAKER_01]: It probably shouldn't have made me laugh, but it's when Lawn is getting in the trouble lift and keeps saying bridge and the doors will open in say, Dex 17.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then she does it a couple more times than the third time, it's like, Dex 17, Lawn.
[SPEAKER_00]: I did like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I also like there is variation with the way she says deck 17 each time, the first time it's like deck 17.
[SPEAKER_00]: Second time was deck 17.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just kind of punctuating it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was just like, oh, I like that the computer is being a little insistent.
[SPEAKER_00]: I liked the callback to the episode lost in translation at the end when who were brings Kirk the freshly made cookies.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like those little bits for continuity hounds who are really invested in this series and stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: Someone once said that no rational person can refuse freshly baked cookies or something like that, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: That was nice.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and then, you know, capping that scene off with him trying to contact Carol and David.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, there's a little bit of dramatic irony here because we as the audience know how that's going to turn out that Carol is going to tell him you stay away from us.
[SPEAKER_00]: You, I don't want you in my son's life.
[SPEAKER_00]: And uh,
[SPEAKER_00]: It's profoundly tragic for Kirk there that you know, that regardless of how, if he makes contact, regardless of how this conversation goes or whatever, ultimately it's going to be, nope, you're not in this kid's life and you're not allowed to be in this kid's life.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's, you know, as a result of choices that he's made for better or worse, but, you know, he's he's he's caused that to happen and it's really sad.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how else to say that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is, and it just, it makes me think of Wrath of Khan when they get to regular, and they've been down to the facility, and he's David's talking to Mom, and then he walks away and Kirk goes, is that David?
[SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't even know what his son looks like as an adult, and that is terrible.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's it's profoundly sad like I just that's all I could think of doing that scene was um yeah that that scene is that David right all of that
[SPEAKER_00]: Ah, but that isn't the very end, the very end is, as we said, the USS Thorne, I guess, is towing the, the Griffin to Division 12.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, you get that camera push in as long as looking through the window to the image of, of Harper, the window going.
[SPEAKER_00]: Delightfully creepy.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was enjoyable.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm just going to quickly go over some reasons why my middle name today is Star Trek event horizon.
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, a ship suddenly mysteriously somewhere that it shouldn't be.
[SPEAKER_01]: The event horizon.
[SPEAKER_01]: actually when it activated, it's first drive, which I can't remember, it was, is basically something that punches a hole through space and so, because the the shortest distance between two points is nothing, so it basically changes your location in space.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when they activate this drive, the ship disappears.
[SPEAKER_01]: and hasn't been heard from for a long time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And now it suddenly reappeared, it's sitting in orbit around Jupiter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just hanging out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: They sent a team to find out what's going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: This team was supposed to have been getting a vacation.
[SPEAKER_01]: and they're sent there anyway to find out what's happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the horror ensues it's it's it's pretty quiet at first, but you know they're trying to access computers and I really I really love because this was like
[SPEAKER_01]: the 90s, you know, and they were using compact discs in the computer, so don't let you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the thing is that honestly, it still holds up today.
[SPEAKER_01]: This movie is like 30 years old, and it still holds up today.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are some visual effects that were computer generated that
[SPEAKER_01]: This crew starts having these interactions.
[SPEAKER_01]: like there's the the medic who left her son behind her son has is disabled.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was in an accident sometime.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't really know and he winds up on the ship and talking to her and he shouldn't be there.
[SPEAKER_01]: How could he be there?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's such a also amazing performance by the late
[SPEAKER_01]: um yeah it's it's just that's one of the things there's another thing where um this whole let me go let them go and take me that is a thing that is spoken in event horizon to almost exactly the degree hmm
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, the weird, you know, drive slash warp core thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Very weird, not acting like it should.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's another thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, splitting up that idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's another thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: finding out what really happens to the people and how horrifying it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's very, very similar thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot of great similarities here, I'm not saying that they ripped off anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that these are tropes that are actually quite common in horror and especially space horror.
[SPEAKER_01]: and if they were gonna model any Star Trek episode after event horizon some event horizon stuff they couldn't have done better honestly because they kept marking down yep event horizon event horizon event horizon nice
[SPEAKER_01]: definitely vet her.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this, this, this, Danny, I need to watch it, man.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know it's been on my list.
[SPEAKER_01]: I need to watch it, especially now for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's, it's bump tire on my list for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: I will watch it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's
[SPEAKER_01]: and I really even though it terrified me the first time I watched it and I made Dave sleep in the same bed with me we were not married yet and they didn't stay over.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was still living with my parents on like you're staying over.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't sleep a little bit
[SPEAKER_00]: Nice.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, um, I guess, uh, final thoughts on the Griffin incident and ratings, um, from both you and of course, uh, the folks in the comments as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd love to hear, uh, what you thought of, of this episode and anything we haven't discussed yet as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, you want to go first one?
[SPEAKER_01]: Me go first?
[SPEAKER_01]: Who is, who is, who's, who's going first?
[SPEAKER_00]: Bell me, go for it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I loved this episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: I loved it even as I was cringing because it is deeply frightening.
[SPEAKER_01]: and Dave didn't like it as much as I did.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really, really, really, really loved it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And and I appreciate it both the physical and psychological horror of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think is, again, the best, the scariest episode of Star Trek that has been made to date.
[SPEAKER_01]: and yeah, people who decided to watch this episode and found the out that this was not your mama's Star Trek.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, more power to them.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the writing was really good for this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the direction was absolutely spectacular.
[SPEAKER_01]: The set was absolutely spectacular.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, obviously a lot of this was just a redressed enterprise.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's how you do things in the movie world.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I...
[SPEAKER_01]: I honestly, because of how many things that it made me think of and how well they did the
[SPEAKER_01]: I know, I had to go with something nasty.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, that moment when Spock snaps out of it, he uses that mantra that he remembered from topring.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and like, it snaps back to reality.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he, uh, oh, it's just got a wrap song in my head.
[SPEAKER_00]: It snaps back to reality and we see all the, um, the bodies and sick bay and stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it shows him and like, I'm hoping,
[SPEAKER_00]: that, you know, a lot of that will have been in his mind, but no, his ears are cut.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's blood all over the front of his uniform.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he has a pair of rusty scissors in his own hand, which is like, oh, that was to me, even putting aside all the gore and stuff earlier, like that was the most horrifying moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: The idea retroactively of him doing that to himself because of he's under the influence of something.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that was terrifying for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: the.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I really enjoyed this one as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was I can see why people would find it disturbing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I understand why a lot of people might not like it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I really enjoyed it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought it was a lot of fun.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just tickled all those, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: People that love horror for the reasons they love horror, love being scared, love being freaked out.
[SPEAKER_00]: This does that very well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Excel Carolyn was the director who is apparently a very prolific and well-known horror director and has done a lot of, I think, like, American horror story, and that sort of thing I could be wrong on that, but I know she has a lot of horror experience and was specifically why she was hired for this episode, and I think she did an incredible job.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I'm going to give it a whole boy scout sash full of badges that Jim Kirk earned when he apparently was a boy scout even though Carol Marcus was under the mistaken impression apparently that as she tells David Jim Kirk was many things, but he was never a boy scout Carol you don't know Jim as well as he thought he did.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, well, that's what happens when you've been apart for however many decades, so, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's it for this week's episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess next week we'll be talking about episode three, which I think is called Human Best Friend.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's the next episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I hope you'll all join us for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Really looking forward to that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Brandy and Dave, you, of course, have shield population, your Star Trek review podcast,
[SPEAKER_00]: What have you got coming up for us in that podcast, which I think you'll be recording today, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Your next episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we'll be recording today.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is one that I actually knew which episode it was from the title.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is, oh gosh.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't remember the, I said, you know, give my book and tell you what the, I don't know where I put that, where did I put that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, it's, it's the devil's do.
[SPEAKER_01]: The devil's do.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, and I just like, I think that's the archer of one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I look it up and yes, it was the archer of one.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was the first time and Dave pointed this out that I realized that her name is a palindrome.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, um, I actually really enjoy that episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I am looking forward to covering that with my hub, be Dave.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, that'll be out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: As of this recording slash viewing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I look forward to hearing that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I still haven't heard you last episode yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm getting a little behind on my podcasts again, but uh Okay, yeah, you don't have to.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to apologize dear life is busy
[SPEAKER_00]: fair enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, looking forward to hearing that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you all so much for joining us.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Brandy, for joining me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we'll see you all again next week until then, as always live long and prosper and stay positive.
[SPEAKER_00]: Positively Trek is produced and edited by me, Dan Gunther, and co-produced by Barry Daphord on Treaty 8 Territory, the home of the Beaver, Cree, Dene, and Meti people, whose histories, languages, and cultures we respect.
[SPEAKER_00]: We acknowledge the many First Nations, Meti, and Inuit, who have lived in and cared for these lands for generations.
[SPEAKER_00]: see you