WEBVTT 00:01.930 --> 00:07.955 [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with Literary Agents, Carly Waters, and CC Lyra. 00:08.456 --> 00:13.800 [SPEAKER_01]: Where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business. 00:14.201 --> 00:18.725 [SPEAKER_01]: If you'd ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug, and pull up a chair. 00:26.393 --> 00:27.154 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, hello, CC. 00:27.194 --> 00:29.496 [SPEAKER_01]: We're recording it a slightly off-time today. 00:29.516 --> 00:34.081 [SPEAKER_01]: Doesn't make you feel off-recording where a few hours past our usual, how do you feel today? 00:34.281 --> 00:34.622 [SPEAKER_01]: How are you? 00:35.262 --> 00:36.264 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm good. 00:36.504 --> 00:37.064 [SPEAKER_02]: It is. 00:37.104 --> 00:44.793 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like 3 p.m. and usually we record at noon, which, you know, for me, just means I've had more Brighaderos by 3 p.m. 00:45.093 --> 00:45.894 [SPEAKER_02]: It's supposed to be known. 00:45.914 --> 00:46.935 [SPEAKER_02]: So there's more sugar in me. 00:48.502 --> 00:48.862 [SPEAKER_01]: How are you? 00:49.502 --> 00:50.023 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm good. 00:50.063 --> 00:52.023 [SPEAKER_01]: I've gone through a lot of, excuse me, I'm sure. 00:52.043 --> 00:53.124 [SPEAKER_01]: I went through a lot of candy this week. 00:53.164 --> 00:58.206 [SPEAKER_01]: Usually it's like a candy when, you know, I'm doing contracts, but I have something more like I have to slightly bribe myself. 00:58.486 --> 01:02.487 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was doing my business taxes and I was like, oh my god, I need to eat so much candy right now. 01:02.507 --> 01:04.608 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god to make a business taxes. 01:05.603 --> 01:07.705 [SPEAKER_02]: definitely bribe yourself for business taxes. 01:07.925 --> 01:08.305 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I know. 01:08.385 --> 01:10.227 [SPEAKER_01]: It's my year-end June 30. 01:10.247 --> 01:13.469 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, my year-end is mine too. 01:13.749 --> 01:14.770 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, mine too. 01:14.790 --> 01:15.210 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah. 01:15.311 --> 01:16.552 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's nice because it's in the summer. 01:16.612 --> 01:18.353 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, you know, we get some time holding this together. 01:19.394 --> 01:20.695 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I'm doing that. 01:20.715 --> 01:21.375 [SPEAKER_01]: So what candy? 01:21.575 --> 01:22.636 [SPEAKER_02]: What candy are you enjoying? 01:23.237 --> 01:23.797 [SPEAKER_01]: You know what? 01:25.198 --> 01:27.740 [SPEAKER_01]: I just like went to the random like gas station. 01:27.760 --> 01:28.701 [SPEAKER_01]: It can mean your story. 01:28.721 --> 01:30.562 [SPEAKER_01]: I just like grabbed the biggest bags of candy. 01:30.602 --> 01:31.163 [SPEAKER_01]: I could find. 01:31.803 --> 01:32.544 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just random. 01:32.584 --> 01:33.865 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like random candy. 01:34.844 --> 01:47.817 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, I mean, so what I really felt the gas station, sweet, 16 random, absolutely random, like, rich, gummy candies that my dentist probably hates, but, you know, that's how I get through my business taxes. 01:47.897 --> 01:49.638 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's done, and I feel really good about it. 01:49.658 --> 01:51.500 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a good life, you know, pat yourself on the back. 01:51.520 --> 01:52.341 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:53.122 --> 01:53.862 [SPEAKER_01]: Another good year. 01:54.523 --> 01:59.268 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks to books, I'm, you know, such a privilege to have a life-built on books that never escapes me. 02:00.180 --> 02:03.147 [SPEAKER_02]: It is the best thing ever in the whole world. 02:03.487 --> 02:05.371 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, don't pinch me, you know? 02:05.472 --> 02:06.694 [SPEAKER_02]: Don't pinch me, I don't want to wake up. 02:06.734 --> 02:07.957 [SPEAKER_02]: This is a dream, I don't want to wake up. 02:08.844 --> 02:10.085 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I know, it's the best. 02:10.185 --> 02:12.366 [SPEAKER_01]: Well speaking of things, unfortunately, they're not the best. 02:12.446 --> 02:13.946 [SPEAKER_01]: We have to bring up the scammers again. 02:13.966 --> 02:16.687 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, man, so many scams out there. 02:16.707 --> 02:18.908 [SPEAKER_01]: You guys, I don't know if it's specifically our listeners. 02:18.948 --> 02:23.010 [SPEAKER_01]: I hope not, but this is the platform on which I have to rant about it. 02:23.470 --> 02:25.091 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm getting DMs every day. 02:25.351 --> 02:26.592 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm getting calls to the agency. 02:26.632 --> 02:31.894 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm getting email to our slash pile about all the scams that are happening and people are still falling for them. 02:31.954 --> 02:33.415 [SPEAKER_01]: So I put another Instagram post up. 02:33.755 --> 02:35.036 [SPEAKER_01]: today which is Wednesday. 02:35.056 --> 02:39.497 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm hoping you guys just share it and just try to get the word out because it's really bad out there. 02:39.537 --> 02:42.058 [SPEAKER_01]: You see, are you still hearing people getting scammed on your end? 02:42.758 --> 02:43.139 [SPEAKER_02]: I am. 02:43.159 --> 02:51.842 [SPEAKER_02]: I am both unsurprised because I feel like we knew I would get worse but also surprised because how is this still happening? 02:51.942 --> 02:52.622 [SPEAKER_01]: Like both things? 02:52.662 --> 02:53.402 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, I think. 02:53.603 --> 02:56.364 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, listen, it's a major baller. 02:57.504 --> 02:58.424 [SPEAKER_02]: It makes me really angry. 02:59.705 --> 03:00.045 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 03:00.569 --> 03:03.391 [SPEAKER_01]: I go through waves where I'm like angry. 03:03.411 --> 03:06.813 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm frustrated and then I want to ignore it. 03:07.113 --> 03:11.536 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I also get a moment of just sadness. 03:11.836 --> 03:13.938 [SPEAKER_01]: We built our revolutions based on our names. 03:13.978 --> 03:15.399 [SPEAKER_01]: That is one and the same. 03:15.439 --> 03:24.825 [SPEAKER_01]: And when somebody's using our likeness, obviously without permission, to scam, intimidate, to fraud authors, this is nauseating to me. 03:24.845 --> 03:27.226 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't really have another word for it, but it really upsets me. 03:27.346 --> 03:28.607 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I go and waves about it. 03:29.648 --> 03:42.854 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's the sadness wave is the hardest for me because I know anger is anchors almost like fuel and there's at least energy to anger, but sadness for me anyway, it's very draining and it's it's tough. 03:42.874 --> 03:49.496 [SPEAKER_02]: I I you know applaud all writers out there who are warning other writers. 03:49.736 --> 03:53.218 [SPEAKER_02]: I did get a DM from someone saying CC just so you know I heard about the scam. 03:54.296 --> 03:55.798 [SPEAKER_02]: And I heard about it through a writer friend. 03:55.838 --> 04:02.447 [SPEAKER_02]: And my writing, if you're going to immediately alert it, her, I said, you know, Carley and CC would never be reaching up to you to ask for a fees to read your work. 04:02.587 --> 04:04.089 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, hey, thank you. 04:04.330 --> 04:05.251 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for your service. 04:05.271 --> 04:06.313 [SPEAKER_02]: You're being wonderful. 04:06.893 --> 04:08.215 [SPEAKER_02]: And also thanks for learning, NASA. 04:08.255 --> 04:08.536 [SPEAKER_02]: I guess. 04:09.615 --> 04:11.557 [SPEAKER_02]: There is nothing we can do to stop these people. 04:11.617 --> 04:13.399 [SPEAKER_02]: I feel a little powerless in that sense. 04:13.419 --> 04:24.930 [SPEAKER_02]: Hopefully talking about it here does bring awareness where people can be just even more skeptical, even more cautious, even more mindful that if it looks too good to be true, it just might be. 04:25.714 --> 04:28.735 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's so many stories out there. 04:28.755 --> 04:35.957 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you need to us to run through them, for example, some of it's like, so-called one of us reaches out and offers rep simply based on 25 pages. 04:35.997 --> 04:38.278 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, we would never offer rep based on 25 pages. 04:38.338 --> 04:39.078 [SPEAKER_01]: That's ludicrous. 04:39.358 --> 04:46.221 [SPEAKER_01]: There's something where editors will, you'll get an email from a quote unquote editor, who will say, oh, I, so, so, so-and-so about your work. 04:46.441 --> 04:48.141 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, so-and-so agent, they want to see it. 04:48.161 --> 04:50.302 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's like a sounds like a referral, but it's not because, 04:50.912 --> 04:55.135 [SPEAKER_01]: you know, it's an editor who I've never done a deal with, or it's an editor in a completely different category. 04:55.155 --> 05:05.283 [SPEAKER_01]: So really, you just have to have those antennas up and just be able to read through things and just think as logically as possible about whether this would actually be the actual thing that would be happening. 05:05.323 --> 05:10.847 [SPEAKER_01]: If you didn't query me, then I can't even tell you how unlikely it is that I'm going to be reaching out to you. 05:11.227 --> 05:14.370 [SPEAKER_01]: First of all, I mean, I signed to just small handful of clients a year. 05:14.730 --> 05:18.473 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, why would I be reaching out to try and sign to a hundred authors a year through these games? 05:20.727 --> 05:41.680 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know, there's, I remember years ago hearing about people scamming the elderly with like technology and how the reasoning behind it was they were particularly vulnerable because, you know, you're, you come from a generation where you're not familiar with technology and so technological scams, you're more prone to falling for them, again, vulnerability. 05:42.380 --> 05:57.864 [SPEAKER_02]: And it just, it makes me so upset that like writers are especially vulnerable because of how, you know, insanely competitive publishing is, I think it's human nature to hold onto anything that looks like good news, but please, your critical thinking is needed now and more than ever. 05:58.224 --> 06:01.885 [SPEAKER_02]: And it'd be very, very aware and skeptical. 06:02.765 --> 06:08.426 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay, let's look back to something happy, which is, you and I are going to be in person along with beyond go very soon. 06:08.446 --> 06:10.687 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to remind everybody where they can find us? 06:11.637 --> 06:15.982 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, we will be at when words collide in Calgary. 06:16.042 --> 06:18.545 [SPEAKER_02]: It'll be my first time in Calgary, I haven't been to Calgary. 06:19.246 --> 06:20.327 [SPEAKER_02]: We're so excited. 06:21.308 --> 06:25.252 [SPEAKER_02]: I fly on the 13th, and then I fly back on the Sunday. 06:25.272 --> 06:26.574 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know where you're flying there. 06:26.934 --> 06:29.417 [SPEAKER_02]: But I know we're not going to fly together, because we're obviously coming from different cases. 06:29.517 --> 06:32.140 [SPEAKER_02]: But so much fun, so much fun that we'll be there. 06:32.820 --> 06:33.901 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we're very excited. 06:33.941 --> 06:36.263 [SPEAKER_01]: We are going to be doing something together. 06:36.544 --> 06:38.406 [SPEAKER_01]: I think I'm teaching one or two things. 06:38.446 --> 06:39.447 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm on one panel. 06:39.887 --> 06:43.511 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm also teaching kind of how to pitch in person before the pitch session. 06:43.531 --> 06:44.892 [SPEAKER_01]: So everybody is ready to go. 06:45.212 --> 06:46.233 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're just excited. 06:46.293 --> 06:47.054 [SPEAKER_01]: I love conferences. 06:47.074 --> 06:48.215 [SPEAKER_01]: They're so energizing. 06:48.275 --> 06:50.498 [SPEAKER_01]: And just really bringing people together and get inspired. 06:50.558 --> 06:53.881 [SPEAKER_01]: So we are going to be a person and you have to hear us speak. 06:53.961 --> 06:54.602 [SPEAKER_02]: So we can't wait. 06:54.642 --> 06:55.342 [SPEAKER_02]: We'll see you really soon. 06:56.123 --> 07:03.973 [SPEAKER_02]: It'll be the first time that we're doing the three of us a conference together and the first time that we're doing a live recording of our show. 07:04.694 --> 07:06.056 [SPEAKER_02]: It will be very fun. 07:06.156 --> 07:06.797 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm really excited. 07:07.380 --> 07:29.250 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm hoping the tech works out so you guys can hear it afterwards and if there's anybody who's listening to this, who is a conference organizer and wants to get us to your city or your conference never hesitate to reach out both CC and I'm of course Bianca tried to do a certain number of conferences a year to make sure we're again connecting with everybody so yeah let us let us know we could be in your city as well and we love doing a person events. 07:30.210 --> 07:35.757 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, next thing on the list is the, you know, every week, there's a viral article of some kind. 07:35.797 --> 07:37.318 [SPEAKER_01]: It surprises me every week, every week. 07:37.338 --> 07:39.301 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, what are we, and what are season I going to talk about? 07:39.481 --> 07:41.003 [SPEAKER_01]: And then there's always something to talk about. 07:41.023 --> 07:49.773 [SPEAKER_01]: So there was an Atlantic article in the technology section by journalist Will Ormiss called, is this what comes after AI Slop? 07:50.377 --> 08:00.601 [SPEAKER_01]: Daggermoth could be the first best selling novel, partly written by a chat, but so this article came out just two days before recording, so it came in on July 27th. 08:00.961 --> 08:02.822 [SPEAKER_01]: You guys can go back and look it up. 08:02.962 --> 08:04.743 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm assuming it's behind a paywall. 08:04.763 --> 08:09.605 [SPEAKER_01]: I had a gift link, but there's 127 comments and tons more on social media. 08:10.145 --> 08:13.206 [SPEAKER_01]: It's quite the article, so you do want to give a quick summary of what happens in it. 08:14.367 --> 08:15.847 [SPEAKER_02]: No, I want you to do it this summary, please. 08:16.387 --> 08:17.608 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I ate some. 08:21.360 --> 08:42.609 [SPEAKER_01]: I will do a quick summary of what happens on this article so I mean I guess I'm sure most of you have seen it by now but basically this journalist found out that there are group of researchers that are taking books and putting them into pan gram to assess whether they are AI written or not. 08:43.687 --> 08:52.672 [SPEAKER_01]: These, the Scroop of Researchers said they selected randomly selected 14,000 Kindle e-books, ran them through Pagram the AI Detection tool. 08:53.355 --> 08:57.618 [SPEAKER_01]: And it says one in five came back more than 25% AI written. 08:57.678 --> 09:04.744 [SPEAKER_01]: And specifically, DeGermoth returned 60% according to an underlying data set that the authors shared with the journalist. 09:05.164 --> 09:11.288 [SPEAKER_01]: The journalist runs through the reasons that they potentially think that it is AI written. 09:11.729 --> 09:14.051 [SPEAKER_01]: Allegedly, of course, we are not saying that it is. 09:14.131 --> 09:17.393 [SPEAKER_01]: We think that the journalist is allegedly saying that it was written by AI. 09:17.413 --> 09:22.417 [SPEAKER_01]: They talk to other academics about the situation who work on technology and creative work. 09:22.917 --> 09:29.602 [SPEAKER_01]: and get their assessment, but essentially the journalists is trying to ask the question, could AI fiction be getting good? 09:29.802 --> 09:32.764 [SPEAKER_01]: Are we actually going to be able to tell when something is AI-written? 09:33.545 --> 09:40.770 [SPEAKER_01]: The issue, I mean, we can go through the many, many issues here, but I think there's the ethical things to talk about. 09:41.670 --> 09:44.432 [SPEAKER_01]: I think there's the why is this the second 09:48.871 --> 09:51.192 [SPEAKER_01]: there's a lot of different angles to talk about when we're talking about this. 09:51.272 --> 09:58.414 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, authors didn't give permission to these academics to be running all of this through AI. 09:58.514 --> 10:00.054 [SPEAKER_01]: So, I mean, is that theft? 10:00.154 --> 10:02.835 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we need to start having limits on this. 10:03.215 --> 10:06.096 [SPEAKER_01]: And anyway, my mind goes in lots of different directions, you see, but what stood out to you? 10:06.764 --> 10:08.846 [SPEAKER_02]: definitely lots of directions too. 10:08.866 --> 10:17.953 [SPEAKER_02]: I think something that made me honestly quite sad is we're using AI to detect AI or to try to detect AI. 10:18.013 --> 10:26.199 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like those Russian dolls where you like you open something up and there's something inside and the author has explicitly stated she did not use AI. 10:26.339 --> 10:32.704 [SPEAKER_02]: She's explicitly stated she is anti-AI and all I can think of is how 10:37.087 --> 10:59.521 [SPEAKER_02]: I would be, if someone were saying this about a client of mine, it's, yeah, I, I don't know, something something the article does highlight is people lie about not using AI because of the witch hunt, people lie, it's actually cited the author behind the New York Times article, Fabio is like the new, the new Fabio is clawed, the one we talked about. 10:59.621 --> 11:04.785 [SPEAKER_02]: And anyway, the, if I understood correctly, the, the angle was, 11:05.776 --> 11:07.937 [SPEAKER_02]: authors are not safe to disclose that they used AI. 11:07.957 --> 11:09.998 [SPEAKER_02]: So they lie about it because they're easy, which aren't. 11:10.059 --> 11:16.142 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, I, again, no one should be getting death threats, no one should be receiving abusive messages a thousand percent. 11:16.702 --> 11:24.407 [SPEAKER_02]: I do think, however, that there's something to be said about, if I am a consumer, I have a right to know what I'm ingested. 11:24.567 --> 11:32.732 [SPEAKER_02]: I have a right to know what's in my food, what's in the books I consume, and if someone did use AI to write a book, I have the right to know that. 11:32.912 --> 11:34.373 [SPEAKER_02]: Everyone has the right to know that. 11:35.153 --> 11:38.216 [SPEAKER_02]: I have zero interest in reading AI-generated work. 11:38.437 --> 11:47.105 [SPEAKER_02]: I still believe, I'm still very confident that it will not be good, that AI cannot write a story that is compelling and emotionally resonant and interesting and fun. 11:48.066 --> 11:50.789 [SPEAKER_02]: But even if it ever can, which I don't believe, it can. 11:51.290 --> 11:56.255 [SPEAKER_02]: But even if it ever can, I want to know that a book was written using AI. 11:56.275 --> 11:57.176 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I, mm-hmm. 11:57.812 --> 11:59.433 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, how are you even an author then? 11:59.473 --> 12:01.154 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, why is it your name on the books cover? 12:01.634 --> 12:06.737 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it should be, you know, prompted by so-and-so, as opposed to authored by so-and-so, you know? 12:07.357 --> 12:11.059 [SPEAKER_02]: Prompts, prompts provided by person's name. 12:11.500 --> 12:18.344 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, I think that's, I don't know, I think a huge part of the conversation here is like storytelling is so personal and so special. 12:18.364 --> 12:22.506 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's just, it's just so hard to be in the situation. 12:22.746 --> 12:24.787 [SPEAKER_02]: Honestly, I don't, I don't, I don't want to go away. 12:25.167 --> 12:26.068 [SPEAKER_02]: How can we make it go away? 12:27.633 --> 12:28.054 [SPEAKER_01]: question. 12:28.554 --> 12:44.188 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, one of the things that the article focused on a lot was it said they scanned each book's text for, quote, rare expressions and quote, strings of at least five words in a specific order that also appeared other suspected AI books, but almost never in human written ones, and Daggermouth had many of them. 12:44.488 --> 12:52.935 [SPEAKER_01]: And quote, the thing that drives me crazy is also in genre fiction there is going to be repetition of certain things in certain ways of thinking 12:55.177 --> 13:06.405 [SPEAKER_01]: So that to me isn't really proof of anything, there's another quote from the article that says, the study has yet to be peer-reviewed, very important, and to be clear there is no definitive proof that Wolf used AI. 13:06.665 --> 13:08.466 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is the quote that you're referring to, CC. 13:08.527 --> 13:14.511 [SPEAKER_01]: She said, the suggestion that I use Jenner to the AI to write down about this holy untrue will set in a statement sent by her lawyer. 13:14.591 --> 13:15.551 [SPEAKER_01]: I wrote this book myself. 13:15.631 --> 13:20.935 [SPEAKER_01]: I've been spoken about my opposition to Jenner to the AI and what is due to writers, artists in the creative community. 13:20.975 --> 13:22.977 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't believe it belongs in the writing process. 13:24.120 --> 13:32.985 [SPEAKER_01]: referencing pangram's limitations will have added that accusations like these have real consequences for authors and they should not be made on the basis of technology that's known to be unreliable. 13:33.425 --> 13:34.526 [SPEAKER_01]: I completely agree. 13:34.666 --> 13:42.010 [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's mind boggling to me that we keep seeing these articles that we keep repeating essentially the same conversation about this. 13:42.030 --> 13:45.512 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like you and I have had the same conversation about this on the show so we're kind of repeating. 13:46.052 --> 13:48.976 [SPEAKER_01]: Our stance is on this, which is, it's crazy to me. 13:49.317 --> 13:55.124 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a journalism professor that's quoted in the article that says, everyone thinks they can tell AI writing. 13:55.425 --> 14:00.892 [SPEAKER_01]: Christine Larson journals some professor at the University of Colorado at Boulder, who studies the effects of technology on creative work. 14:01.475 --> 14:03.216 [SPEAKER_01]: She said, but I don't think we can tell so much. 14:03.316 --> 14:08.199 [SPEAKER_01]: Privately, several authors and editors have told her that they're using the technology to accelerate or improve their input. 14:08.680 --> 14:15.945 [SPEAKER_01]: Quote, I totally buy into the idea that a human working with AI can write something that is compelling and, quote, she said, I have absolutely no doubt that we will see more of this in the future. 14:15.985 --> 14:17.966 [SPEAKER_01]: And quote, this is an academic. 14:17.986 --> 14:19.407 [SPEAKER_01]: This is one person's opinion. 14:19.667 --> 14:20.768 [SPEAKER_01]: This is one person's opinion. 14:21.168 --> 14:24.911 [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know what to say, but this is person doesn't work in the publishing industry. 14:25.951 --> 14:31.075 [SPEAKER_01]: not is not referencing copyright law in this at all, their technology professor. 14:31.215 --> 14:34.618 [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't really understand how that quote is even useful to this article. 14:34.638 --> 14:39.302 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I, I just don't understand what the other than rage bait, which is clearly you can see my blood pressure rising. 14:39.342 --> 14:41.503 [SPEAKER_01]: Like what is the point of these articles? 14:41.563 --> 14:43.605 [SPEAKER_01]: We're just we keep seeing the same thing again and again. 14:45.329 --> 14:50.194 [SPEAKER_02]: I personally don't think I can tell for a full novel if it's AI or not. 14:50.374 --> 14:54.898 [SPEAKER_02]: I do know I can tell whether it's good quality or not and if it's good quality it's not AI. 14:55.419 --> 14:56.180 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's what I can tell. 14:56.220 --> 14:59.763 [SPEAKER_02]: I can't tell AI apart from like word vomit. 15:00.468 --> 15:09.417 [SPEAKER_02]: necessarily there might be things, but I also think that these little rules that the AI algorithm if that's even what it's called is using to your point. 15:09.938 --> 15:15.303 [SPEAKER_02]: You understand the technology was just created using stone and work, right? 15:15.623 --> 15:16.864 [SPEAKER_02]: People understand this, right? 15:17.645 --> 15:20.288 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, the best take for me was Jane Friedman's take 15:20.668 --> 15:25.670 [SPEAKER_02]: and her newsletter, she's fresh off the press today when we're recording. 15:26.131 --> 15:27.851 [SPEAKER_02]: It's the bottom line by Jane Friedman. 15:27.891 --> 15:29.212 [SPEAKER_02]: It's our favorite newsletter. 15:29.372 --> 15:30.232 [SPEAKER_02]: We adore it. 15:30.873 --> 15:37.776 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that Jane mentions how missing from the conversation are the motivations of the researchers. 15:37.976 --> 15:46.380 [SPEAKER_02]: They stated plainly that what they're trying to do is prove that AI generated or AI assisted work leads to market dilution. 15:47.380 --> 15:56.107 [SPEAKER_02]: If it does lead to market dilution, then the fair use defense used by the AI companies might not stand. 15:56.668 --> 15:59.630 [SPEAKER_02]: And so that is a win, that is a win for authors. 15:59.650 --> 16:02.132 [SPEAKER_02]: That could potentially be a win for authors. 16:03.093 --> 16:12.400 [SPEAKER_02]: I find that I find the idea that it wouldn't create market dilution, which I know is if I might, I'm just standing correctly, was the conclusion of the anthropics element. 16:16.965 --> 16:17.425 [SPEAKER_02]: Delusional. 16:17.946 --> 16:19.327 [SPEAKER_02]: Like of course it's going to create delusion. 16:19.467 --> 16:20.447 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, of course it is. 16:20.528 --> 16:21.508 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course it is. 16:21.929 --> 16:22.649 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly. 16:22.669 --> 16:35.118 [SPEAKER_02]: Like the market's being flooded by by all this garbage, you know, and it just doesn't make any sense to me that it wouldn't create massive massive problems of trust because it all comes down to trust. 16:35.834 --> 16:36.335 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. 16:36.495 --> 16:41.299 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a couple of other quotes from Jane's newsletter say that I wanted to pull out. 16:41.619 --> 16:46.504 [SPEAKER_01]: She said this case is led to the kind of outrage from the writing community you might expect, not at least because the author's woman of color. 16:46.684 --> 16:48.986 [SPEAKER_01]: And like Shire Girl has an air of inevitability. 16:49.026 --> 16:55.493 [SPEAKER_01]: These situations will keep occurring until the media and the function community stop caring what Pangram says or how much author's may be employing AI. 16:57.633 --> 17:08.184 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a, I think to discuss, but she's also says in author using AI can create quality compelling work with AI assistance, but we'll typically disclaim use because of the stigma, the Atlanta article states as much. 17:09.561 --> 17:12.303 [SPEAKER_01]: But again, this goes back to the whole, is it a book? 17:12.643 --> 17:13.684 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it a publishable book? 17:13.764 --> 17:21.790 [SPEAKER_01]: Agents can't represent things that are written with any AI because then there's no connection of copyright and then a publisher's not going to want to buy it. 17:21.830 --> 17:24.492 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's the second half of that is the money part to me. 17:25.393 --> 17:28.075 [SPEAKER_02]: I just don't think you can create quality compelling work. 17:28.095 --> 17:29.956 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, she does use AI assistance. 17:29.996 --> 17:31.838 [SPEAKER_02]: So I guess I'm wondering, what does that mean? 17:31.858 --> 17:33.759 [SPEAKER_02]: I would need more concrete information. 17:34.360 --> 17:36.161 [SPEAKER_02]: We've mentioned this before, spell check. 17:36.201 --> 17:37.122 [SPEAKER_02]: That does not count. 17:37.622 --> 17:59.070 [SPEAKER_02]: you know like I don't know I just don't think I just don't see a world in which this makes sense it's I keep coming back to the thinking good writing comes from thinking the biggest mistake I see writers make is skipping the thinking part and if you skip the thinking then the quality is gonna be low I just don't I don't buy it I I'm probably missing something you know but I don't buy it 18:00.172 --> 18:00.832 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think so. 18:00.912 --> 18:07.554 [SPEAKER_01]: Another quote I wanted to highlight was Jane said, while AI detection is not foolproof for the purposes of this research, it doesn't have to be. 18:08.014 --> 18:16.897 [SPEAKER_01]: One may ask whether the ends justify the means and if the collateral damage is done in the process, throwing this author under the buster who released week without definitive proof is ethical. 18:17.205 --> 18:26.630 [SPEAKER_01]: Regardless of how writers feel about AI detection, it will continue to be used by all kinds of actors to measure what's happening in the marketplace, especially given the large amount of money at stake in countless copyright lawsuits. 18:27.350 --> 18:35.334 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so that was from James Newsletter, Kathleen Schmidt, who writes the publishing confidential sub-stack, which is a popular one that a lot of you guys read. 18:35.634 --> 18:40.837 [SPEAKER_01]: She had kind of a long note, which is kind of like a social media post on sub-stack about this topic. 18:41.677 --> 18:44.178 [SPEAKER_01]: And she said a lot more is coming to light about this Atlantic article. 18:44.738 --> 18:49.019 [SPEAKER_01]: She kind of named a little bit more information about, you know, the publisher, how much the publisher paid for it. 18:49.059 --> 18:52.320 [SPEAKER_01]: It's seven and two-ster paid seven figures for it and a sequel. 18:52.380 --> 18:54.520 [SPEAKER_01]: I think many of you guys know it was originally self-published. 18:54.961 --> 18:55.941 [SPEAKER_01]: She said what's not in the piece. 18:55.961 --> 19:00.802 [SPEAKER_01]: Several author's on threads are coming forward with screenshots of the email they received from the professors doing research. 19:01.462 --> 19:02.382 [SPEAKER_01]: I alluded to this earlier. 19:02.402 --> 19:08.284 [SPEAKER_01]: The professors did not disclose that the author's manuscript would be analyzed in the way they before in the article. 19:08.907 --> 19:11.069 [SPEAKER_01]: She also said the author of Dagger Month is a woman of color. 19:11.269 --> 19:13.090 [SPEAKER_01]: Today, it's its publication date. 19:13.110 --> 19:14.871 [SPEAKER_01]: It's pretty clear that Atlantic did a hit piece. 19:15.251 --> 19:17.373 [SPEAKER_01]: The author is reiterated that she is anti-AI. 19:17.713 --> 19:18.333 [SPEAKER_01]: I believe her. 19:19.494 --> 19:23.277 [SPEAKER_01]: She goes on to say the phrases the researchers pulled out are extremely common in genre books. 19:24.017 --> 19:24.858 [SPEAKER_01]: I, Carly, agree. 19:25.098 --> 19:27.219 [SPEAKER_01]: This is not sufficient evidence of AI use. 19:27.700 --> 19:31.622 [SPEAKER_01]: And then Kathleen Anne's by saying, this once again highlights that pain grim does not get it right. 19:31.823 --> 19:35.245 [SPEAKER_01]: A good percentage of the time, accusing authors of using AI with such low-paying 19:37.332 --> 19:40.033 [SPEAKER_01]: Thankfully, many authors are standing up for diggermouth. 19:40.493 --> 19:45.975 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, like throwing someone under the bus on their pub date. 19:46.015 --> 19:46.895 [SPEAKER_02]: No, it's not okay. 19:46.975 --> 19:48.155 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's, I don't know. 19:48.896 --> 19:50.096 [SPEAKER_01]: This is the problem. 19:50.276 --> 19:52.157 [SPEAKER_02]: It's the endless loop that we go into. 19:52.197 --> 19:53.397 [SPEAKER_02]: You can't use AI to write. 19:53.437 --> 19:55.478 [SPEAKER_02]: You get accused of using AI, but AI did that. 19:55.518 --> 19:56.458 [SPEAKER_02]: AI is fallible. 19:56.498 --> 19:57.658 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, there's false positives. 19:57.698 --> 19:59.839 [SPEAKER_02]: And then the poor, it's just a lot. 19:59.959 --> 20:02.800 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, if if if someone is using AI and not 20:06.441 --> 20:11.266 [SPEAKER_02]: is however incredibly problematic to accuse an author of using AI. 20:11.446 --> 20:22.377 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's, I don't understand why these authors are more litigious and maybe they are behind the scenes and we're not seeing this, but I don't think all publicity is good publicity when we're talking about this when it comes to an author's reputation. 20:22.517 --> 20:25.540 [SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, those are our thoughts on that. 20:25.620 --> 20:28.263 [SPEAKER_01]: I think again, it echoes a lot of what you've heard us say on the show before. 20:28.720 --> 20:31.881 [SPEAKER_01]: But we also want to make sure we are covering all of the news that's coming up this week. 20:32.401 --> 20:34.902 [SPEAKER_01]: We are going to hear a word from our sponsors. 20:34.942 --> 20:45.165 [SPEAKER_01]: When we come back, we are going to talk about the changes to the AALA, which is the Agents Association in America, and we have a few questions from the audience if we have time. 20:45.245 --> 20:46.025 [SPEAKER_01]: So stay with us. 20:49.952 --> 20:56.996 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, CC, you and I are both members of the AALA, which is the American Association of Literary Agents. 20:57.176 --> 20:58.837 [SPEAKER_01]: I have been a member for many years. 20:59.218 --> 21:00.678 [SPEAKER_01]: The year that I joined. 21:00.858 --> 21:10.064 [SPEAKER_01]: So it used to be, there was this huge list of like, I don't want to say restrictive, but it's like, it was a lot of hurdles that an agent had to jump through to join the AALA. 21:10.084 --> 21:13.626 [SPEAKER_01]: You had to have a certain number of deals within a very certain amount of time. 21:13.706 --> 21:15.207 [SPEAKER_01]: It had to be a certain size with a certain type. 21:15.247 --> 21:16.008 [SPEAKER_01]: have a publisher. 21:16.368 --> 21:18.511 [SPEAKER_01]: You also had to have two letters of recommendation. 21:18.591 --> 21:20.253 [SPEAKER_01]: It was like a very elaborate process. 21:20.574 --> 21:25.960 [SPEAKER_01]: So I, as an agent, I'm like, oh, I finally took all of the, you know, all of the boxes on the list. 21:26.000 --> 21:26.761 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so excited. 21:27.162 --> 21:28.904 [SPEAKER_01]: Fill out everything to submit to the ALI. 21:28.944 --> 21:30.566 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I like don't hear back for a while. 21:30.586 --> 21:31.668 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, okay, that's a bit weird. 21:32.128 --> 21:35.432 [SPEAKER_01]: And I messaged with, I'm like, just following up on my application, making sure you got it. 21:35.452 --> 21:40.539 [SPEAKER_01]: They go, we're actually in the process of changing all of the application requirements. 21:41.019 --> 21:44.744 [SPEAKER_01]: So you actually don't need any of this anymore to be a member of the AALA. 21:44.764 --> 21:47.548 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, the year that I finally am like, 21:47.968 --> 21:50.349 [SPEAKER_01]: Jump through all the who, anyway, I was like so proud of myself. 21:50.389 --> 21:56.172 [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously for meeting the high requirements of the ALA as an agent I hold myself to the absolute highest standard. 21:56.732 --> 22:04.835 [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, so all of this to say the ALA has now gone through a number of changes in regard to their code of conduct. 22:04.915 --> 22:06.476 [SPEAKER_01]: Is that what it's called to see the code of conduct? 22:07.580 --> 22:09.342 [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's called the Canon of Ethics. 22:09.622 --> 22:10.684 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm a Canon of Ethics. 22:10.804 --> 22:11.044 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 22:11.304 --> 22:11.765 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 22:11.865 --> 22:15.049 [SPEAKER_02]: So I remember of the membership committee. 22:15.189 --> 22:19.054 [SPEAKER_02]: So you know, every month we meet and we review applications. 22:19.074 --> 22:24.740 [SPEAKER_02]: And the scams that the scammy applications we get are real. 22:25.661 --> 22:27.783 [SPEAKER_02]: I obviously was not a member in the before times. 22:27.803 --> 22:33.988 [SPEAKER_02]: I remember you saying, Carly, that used to be that if you did anything like if you thought a class with writer's digest like you wouldn't be eligible. 22:34.008 --> 22:38.932 [SPEAKER_02]: So like in the before times, I was not a member and therefore not a part of the membership committee. 22:39.372 --> 22:45.657 [SPEAKER_02]: But the membership committee, like we read everyone's applications very thoughtfully, including the statements about like, 22:46.137 --> 22:46.918 [SPEAKER_02]: Why you want to do this? 22:46.958 --> 22:48.640 [SPEAKER_02]: Why are you joining? 22:48.761 --> 22:52.005 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a wonderful, wonderful committee to be a part of. 22:52.465 --> 22:56.110 [SPEAKER_02]: It's wonderful to see all the people who are fighting the good fight and being awesome agents. 22:56.130 --> 22:58.933 [SPEAKER_02]: And then there are applications that are not real in my opinion. 22:59.073 --> 23:01.076 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like people impersonating people who are not real. 23:02.377 --> 23:08.480 [SPEAKER_02]: But I love the reorganization, and I love that we meet every year at PopCon, and we do all this great work together. 23:09.060 --> 23:18.485 [SPEAKER_02]: One of the things I also, like that TheoLate puts forth is the can of ethics, and the can of ethics is essentially like how can you conduct yourself ethically as an agent. 23:19.145 --> 23:21.166 [SPEAKER_02]: There were a few changes. 23:21.226 --> 23:27.069 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, and I have to be honest, I got an notification all members did, saying, hey, the can of ethics has changed, we're having like a... 23:27.489 --> 23:33.292 [SPEAKER_02]: a town hall or something, an event where you'll discuss the changes, but I was actually busy. 23:33.312 --> 23:36.674 [SPEAKER_02]: I had a call when that happened and I haven't watched the recording yet. 23:37.114 --> 23:42.157 [SPEAKER_02]: So I want to be honest and say that I have not done my job of reading both versions and and comparing them. 23:42.197 --> 23:43.878 [SPEAKER_02]: Have you, you have your time? 23:43.898 --> 23:48.161 [SPEAKER_01]: I went to the town hall and they kind of walked us through all of the changes. 23:48.201 --> 23:50.522 [SPEAKER_01]: I also have a summary here for us that we can talk through. 23:50.542 --> 23:53.384 [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I mean, it's the type of thing that 23:54.486 --> 24:11.281 [SPEAKER_01]: I know that I believe it took five years for them to come up with these changes because what they're trying to do was modernize some things about the ALA. And as I kind of alluded to in my preamble a lot of things have been changing over the years and it's not necessarily a lowering of standards because obviously the you know the committee reviews all of these applications. 24:11.501 --> 24:14.364 [SPEAKER_01]: But there is a lot of change in terms of how we think about 24:14.804 --> 24:22.386 [SPEAKER_01]: agents in agent tank and I know I've talked on the show before about the agent survey results, which I find really fascinating and I love reflecting on those. 24:22.406 --> 24:28.567 [SPEAKER_01]: So there changes about, I mean, you know, changes inevitable in any business and our business and that's changes slow. 24:28.767 --> 24:31.067 [SPEAKER_01]: But I know it took five years to kind of come up with these changes. 24:31.167 --> 24:35.748 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm going to run through some of the changes just, you know, so authors are aware. 24:36.088 --> 24:39.449 [SPEAKER_01]: There's also some things I want to highlight from James Newsletter that she picked out. 24:40.149 --> 24:43.850 [SPEAKER_01]: And, and yeah, I mean, as you guys know, our bias is very clear. 24:43.870 --> 24:48.332 [SPEAKER_01]: We are the very agents, so if we think about people who are very deeply and take them all very personally. 24:48.452 --> 24:51.873 [SPEAKER_01]: So the biggest change is editorial services. 24:52.733 --> 24:59.396 [SPEAKER_01]: So the concept, I was you guys know that agents do not take reading fees has always been very firm. 24:59.496 --> 25:03.777 [SPEAKER_01]: That has not changed, but there have been changes to the rules about 25:04.170 --> 25:09.474 [SPEAKER_01]: paid editorial services for both clients and non-clans and the kind of rules around that. 25:09.494 --> 25:26.867 [SPEAKER_01]: So agents can offer editorial services, but there are some new rules around just disclosure and agent can't sign a client and then kind of refer them to editing services or promise representation based on editing services. 25:28.128 --> 25:33.470 [SPEAKER_01]: making sure that it's not a pay-to-play, but agents are allowed to, essentially charge for editorial services. 25:33.610 --> 25:35.271 [SPEAKER_01]: See, see, was that your interpretation of this one? 25:36.371 --> 25:45.875 [SPEAKER_02]: My interpretation was before they could offer editorial services to non-clients, but if they ever signed that person, they had to refund them. 25:45.935 --> 25:46.795 [SPEAKER_02]: That was the before. 25:47.295 --> 25:52.297 [SPEAKER_02]: Whereas now, they can offer editorial services to non-clients, and 25:53.395 --> 25:59.678 [SPEAKER_02]: and if they end up signing that client, they will agree to what will happen. 25:59.898 --> 26:02.659 [SPEAKER_02]: Meaning they might not necessarily reimbursed. 26:02.939 --> 26:05.520 [SPEAKER_02]: It will be mutual agreement situation. 26:06.140 --> 26:08.861 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that when it comes to ethics, this is the part that's so tricky. 26:09.961 --> 26:16.484 [SPEAKER_02]: If you're an ethical person, if you're someone who with a very strong moral compass and you're like, I know what's fair, I know what's not, I've given this a lot of thought. 26:17.215 --> 26:18.056 [SPEAKER_02]: you won't abuse it. 26:18.276 --> 26:21.818 [SPEAKER_02]: Like the purpose of these guardrails is always to prevent abuse. 26:22.158 --> 26:23.820 [SPEAKER_02]: You won't abuse it, you'll be super ethical about it. 26:24.140 --> 26:28.903 [SPEAKER_02]: But then if for some reason, that's not the case, then abuse could happen. 26:29.864 --> 26:32.145 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll be honest, I don't like that this guardrail came down. 26:32.285 --> 26:40.151 [SPEAKER_02]: Like I would have preferred to see, if you signed some way you have to reimburse them, I say this, having not thought about it for a long time and I'm the one who's always talking about critical thinking. 26:40.731 --> 26:43.433 [SPEAKER_02]: I also say this was so much empathy because I understand that it's, 26:44.681 --> 26:54.444 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, making a living as an author is very unstable, and since we make a commission based on what authors make, making it living as an agent is also unstable. 26:55.284 --> 26:59.805 [SPEAKER_02]: But like when I saw that guardrail go down, I was like, huh, mutual agreement is very vague. 26:59.925 --> 27:02.146 [SPEAKER_02]: I would have preferred to see something a bit more. 27:02.166 --> 27:05.167 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, like I don't know. 27:06.467 --> 27:09.508 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm thinking about all this as we're talking about it, but I, 27:10.679 --> 27:10.940 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. 27:11.060 --> 27:12.523 [SPEAKER_02]: There was one guardrail that came down. 27:12.543 --> 27:14.767 [SPEAKER_02]: I won't say which one yet that I really don't like. 27:14.908 --> 27:16.792 [SPEAKER_02]: This is one where I'm like, I don't know. 27:16.812 --> 27:18.275 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if this is clear enough. 27:18.355 --> 27:20.459 [SPEAKER_02]: Mutual agreement is too vague. 27:22.498 --> 27:26.681 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, there is also the professional services changes. 27:26.781 --> 27:36.089 [SPEAKER_01]: It says establishing an ethical framework for members who offer services such as website development, social media consulting, marketing, strategy, promotional content, and other professional support. 27:36.429 --> 27:41.613 [SPEAKER_01]: While ensuring that literary representation remains independent of whether or not their purchases those services. 27:41.673 --> 27:45.797 [SPEAKER_01]: So you can essentially hire your little rage to do other things now. 27:46.337 --> 27:48.299 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and Jade had a really good point about this. 27:52.296 --> 27:58.618 [SPEAKER_02]: you know, an agency is like, hey, I want to represent you and then tell them, you know, you need to do certain things like you need to build your platform. 27:58.638 --> 28:00.398 [SPEAKER_02]: And then they might go like, oh, and guess what? 28:00.478 --> 28:01.659 [SPEAKER_02]: We offer that service. 28:01.819 --> 28:08.861 [SPEAKER_02]: And the author might feel pressured to say, yes, even if there's no actual explicit pressure, right? 28:08.921 --> 28:13.462 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, so I don't, I don't, I don't know how to get it. 28:13.582 --> 28:14.963 [SPEAKER_02]: It's, it's really tricky. 28:15.043 --> 28:16.543 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't, yeah, I don't love it. 28:16.623 --> 28:17.944 [SPEAKER_01]: The next ones referal fees. 28:18.664 --> 28:20.825 [SPEAKER_01]: So they say, this one is changing the referral fees, 28:22.516 --> 28:29.368 [SPEAKER_01]: can accept referral fees for different things, as long as it is disclosed in the author understands that. 28:29.629 --> 28:31.772 [SPEAKER_01]: So that to me is mind boggling. 28:31.873 --> 28:33.736 [SPEAKER_01]: Like referral fees are very acute to me. 28:34.152 --> 28:46.017 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, that one, that one, I really, really, if I understood it correctly, what it means is that if these hybrid publishers who do come knocking on our doors, they knock on every agent's door, okay? 28:46.457 --> 28:50.699 [SPEAKER_02]: And go, hey, if you send me people, I'll give you a fee and the fees are high often. 28:51.159 --> 28:52.460 [SPEAKER_02]: I would never do that. 28:52.500 --> 28:54.721 [SPEAKER_02]: I would never say, yes, I'm sending you someone. 28:55.061 --> 28:57.282 [SPEAKER_02]: But now it's allowed in terms of like, I can. 28:57.942 --> 29:00.005 [SPEAKER_02]: get a fee as long as I disclose it, I believe. 29:00.785 --> 29:01.446 [SPEAKER_02]: Still wouldn't do it. 29:02.087 --> 29:03.068 [SPEAKER_02]: Like I still wouldn't do it. 29:03.108 --> 29:07.954 [SPEAKER_02]: Like if I ever refer someone to someone else because I have given referrals, I don't get anything from it. 29:08.114 --> 29:10.056 [SPEAKER_02]: Other than, you know, yay people are happy. 29:10.557 --> 29:11.017 [SPEAKER_02]: Goodwill. 29:11.077 --> 29:12.139 [SPEAKER_02]: I always think they think of me. 29:12.199 --> 29:13.000 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, something else. 29:13.040 --> 29:14.702 [SPEAKER_02]: Like it's just the way I'm doing something. 29:15.182 --> 29:16.003 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, for sure. 29:16.023 --> 29:22.148 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's the relationship and a fit of like if I ever refer you to something and you are really happy with them Then of course people yeah, that does happen. 29:22.168 --> 29:26.392 [SPEAKER_02]: That's true, but like I always say there are no kickbacks There are no finders fees. 29:26.412 --> 29:34.079 [SPEAKER_02]: There's no like I would I would never take it Nor would I ever refer you to a person who was even like suggesting that they would give that to me, right? 29:34.099 --> 29:36.280 [SPEAKER_02]: So I really didn't like that one. 29:36.481 --> 29:36.501 [SPEAKER_02]: I 29:37.221 --> 29:42.007 [SPEAKER_02]: Again, I have to say this, I need to read through the changes, I need to think through the changes. 29:42.087 --> 29:44.770 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm giving you guys my on the spot reaction. 29:45.370 --> 29:48.253 [SPEAKER_02]: But that's one that when I saw, I was like, no. 29:48.914 --> 29:50.296 [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, I'm just one person. 29:50.436 --> 29:53.339 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't speak for everyone else, but I kind of be honest. 29:53.419 --> 29:54.060 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't love that. 29:54.140 --> 29:54.961 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't love that at all. 29:56.465 --> 29:58.926 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the next one is reading fees, which I mentioned really quickly. 29:58.946 --> 30:07.351 [SPEAKER_01]: It just reaffirms the long-standing prohibition on reading fees while clarifying, permissible compensation for educational programming conferences, workshops, and similar activities. 30:07.491 --> 30:13.915 [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, you know, CC9 loved to teach, do lots of teaching and just kind of reaffirms that that is not reading fees and those are very separate things. 30:15.556 --> 30:22.880 [SPEAKER_02]: I believe, because I remember seeing this when I first got the email, that if an agent is working on a project, 30:23.720 --> 30:29.522 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, with a client to go out on submission, then they definitely cannot charge editorial fees and that is explicitly stated. 30:29.582 --> 30:32.544 [SPEAKER_02]: I believe in the new Canon of ethics, which is good. 30:32.564 --> 30:32.984 [SPEAKER_02]: That was good. 30:33.004 --> 30:38.586 [SPEAKER_02]: I appreciated that explicit reference to, you know, you're working on a manuscript for submission, absolutely not. 30:38.646 --> 30:41.127 [SPEAKER_02]: So we know what I mentioned before about the editorial services. 30:41.147 --> 30:42.948 [SPEAKER_02]: It was like pre signing the person. 30:43.188 --> 30:44.528 [SPEAKER_02]: I want to make sure that's really really clear. 30:44.548 --> 30:45.369 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I don't want, like, Mr. 30:45.389 --> 30:46.289 [SPEAKER_01]: Present, the changes. 30:47.374 --> 30:48.075 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, CC. 30:48.095 --> 30:57.223 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, if anybody has any questions, but I think we said, you know, please read them yourself, you know, there is an ethics committee that you can, you know, contact if you think something Unethical is happening. 30:57.563 --> 31:00.786 [SPEAKER_01]: For me, I kind of read through these and I was like, this doesn't really affect me in my business. 31:00.886 --> 31:02.287 [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of like, you know, yeah. 31:02.607 --> 31:23.780 [SPEAKER_01]: I keep my business clean and, you know, I know what I'm doing and I just like to keep my head down and do my job really well, so, you know, I mean, it's not my job to police everybody else's business and we can't, we don't know what goes on and all these other small businesses so we do our best from this platform to preach what we think is ethical and we do hold ourselves to the hypothetical standards and we hope our fellow agent colleagues do as well. 31:29.697 --> 31:30.698 [SPEAKER_01]: So one of the things that C.C. 31:30.718 --> 31:33.761 [SPEAKER_01]: mentioned is Jane was, you know, I don't know what of criticals the word. 31:33.781 --> 31:38.145 [SPEAKER_01]: I think, critical, fairly critical about, you know, thinking about this and I appreciate it. 31:38.165 --> 31:41.568 [SPEAKER_02]: Critical, critical just means critical thinking doesn't necessarily mean negative. 31:41.868 --> 31:42.829 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, exactly. 31:42.869 --> 31:43.009 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 31:43.210 --> 31:46.272 [SPEAKER_01]: Which is, you know, one of the things I love about Jane is that she is really a kind of thinker. 31:46.352 --> 31:46.813 [SPEAKER_01]: So she said, 31:47.233 --> 31:53.535 [SPEAKER_01]: If agents can't make sufficient money selling books and want to get into author services, why not leave agenting and become a service business? 31:53.915 --> 32:01.817 [SPEAKER_01]: While this may be too cynical, my part I can't help but observe that one of the easiest ways to attract attention to your offerings or get conference invites is to put out your shingle as an agent. 32:01.997 --> 32:05.558 [SPEAKER_01]: This latest revision to the canon of ethics may encourage more prospecting. 32:06.018 --> 32:08.998 [SPEAKER_01]: That's one reason I keep telling authors stop putting agents on a pedestal. 32:09.098 --> 32:12.999 [SPEAKER_01]: Anyone can call themselves an agent and even good reputable agents with solid sales records can 32:15.977 --> 32:39.273 [SPEAKER_01]: So any authors that are listening to me right now get out your pen and paper if you are going to pitch yourself and you have some questions here Jane says authors before signing with an agent I recommend you ask number one how many books did you sell to traditional publishers in the last two years where you have no financial interest that's the first question second question please give me a let's say how would they sell books with no I don't get it. 32:40.575 --> 32:47.440 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, this goes back to the canon of ethics about like referral fees and kickbacks to hybrid and sell publishers. 32:48.400 --> 32:50.522 [SPEAKER_02]: But is that a sale sale to a publisher? 32:52.143 --> 32:53.744 [SPEAKER_01]: Which is trying to question me. 32:54.925 --> 32:59.187 [SPEAKER_02]: When the question be how many referrals did you get where you got financial compensation for? 32:59.748 --> 33:01.869 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she's asking it in the reverse. 33:01.909 --> 33:05.452 [SPEAKER_01]: But like essentially trying to ask like, okay, you know, did you financially benefit? 33:06.278 --> 33:09.120 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think a good question to ask if people financially benefited. 33:09.140 --> 33:16.765 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm pro that, but yeah, I think the question maybe could be like in which ways if you financially benefited from your clients is a fair way to kind of ask that question. 33:17.166 --> 33:17.346 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 33:17.366 --> 33:22.690 [SPEAKER_01]: But of course, like on the call, most authors are going to be asking it in a softer way. 33:23.328 --> 33:26.491 [SPEAKER_01]: Not to put agents on a pedestal, but I know you guys, and I've said it on many of these calls. 33:26.692 --> 33:32.178 [SPEAKER_01]: The second question she had was, Kate, you give me a list of the traditional publishers you sold to within the last two years. 33:32.598 --> 33:38.144 [SPEAKER_01]: And then she says, just research the agent or the agency's business model on your own, and then just try to understand their business. 33:39.188 --> 33:42.710 [SPEAKER_02]: Definitely, and I love the idea of not putting agents on a pedestal. 33:43.230 --> 33:48.513 [SPEAKER_02]: I get it, I get why it's hard, because it's not just agents, writers put acquiring editors on a pedestal. 33:48.733 --> 33:52.135 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, big five publishers on a pedestal, I get it, it's not just us. 33:52.155 --> 33:54.676 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just that we're the first or the first and the list of people that. 33:55.316 --> 33:57.677 [SPEAKER_02]: But you know, you're in a call with the Hollywood producer. 33:57.737 --> 34:00.299 [SPEAKER_02]: You're putting them on a pedestal, too, to adopt your book. 34:00.399 --> 34:05.361 [SPEAKER_02]: So I understand what happens, but I love the idea of not being afraid to ask the hard questions. 34:08.977 --> 34:11.898 [SPEAKER_02]: for example, about your agency's boilerplate. 34:12.739 --> 34:18.481 [SPEAKER_02]: And you're getting answers in a way that's like a little frustrated, a little, you know, it is what it is. 34:18.521 --> 34:29.406 [SPEAKER_02]: Then that's a really good indication of the kind of communication you can expect from your agent, you know, like a good agent will walk you through things and will answer, we'll have no problem being questioned as what I'm saying. 34:30.226 --> 34:30.906 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly. 34:31.106 --> 34:31.706 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly. 34:31.746 --> 34:32.347 [SPEAKER_01]: Which is why, 34:33.519 --> 34:50.142 [SPEAKER_01]: like we've we've been through so many scenarios with authors asking us questions and so we should have like established agents at established agencies should have all the answers for you even if they have to just pause and say like I'll get back to you on that one you know I'll let that up and I'll be back in touch so that sometimes that's a fine answer as long as they come back. 34:50.622 --> 34:54.184 [SPEAKER_02]: And, and to be very transparent, you cannot ask about specific client things. 34:54.304 --> 34:55.185 [SPEAKER_02]: I still remember this. 34:55.225 --> 35:03.390 [SPEAKER_02]: I remember one person asked me how much, how much a specific sale was for, and there's not a sale that had a range disclosed. 35:03.410 --> 35:04.851 [SPEAKER_02]: They were like, this book, I love this book. 35:04.911 --> 35:05.911 [SPEAKER_02]: How much did you sell it for? 35:05.931 --> 35:10.274 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, I can't tell you, I cannot tell you that. 35:10.294 --> 35:12.235 [SPEAKER_02]: Because that's, you know, confidential to the client. 35:12.680 --> 35:17.402 [SPEAKER_01]: Totally, we have a fiduciary responsibility to our clients, which includes being confidential about client sales. 35:17.462 --> 35:23.746 [SPEAKER_01]: I also had a call this morning with somebody who was not essentially being like, how much was that they easily saying like, how much do you think my book could sell for? 35:23.766 --> 35:25.447 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, well, done. 35:26.567 --> 35:29.028 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, or in some scenarios, how did this play out? 35:29.088 --> 35:31.730 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that took a thing like, OK. Well, I'm going to talk. 35:32.170 --> 35:35.332 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to talk broadly because of confidentiality reasons. 35:35.372 --> 35:36.492 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want you to think I'm being KG. 35:36.532 --> 35:36.912 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not. 35:36.952 --> 35:38.893 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, I just, I can't give you that information. 35:39.033 --> 35:39.634 [SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, 35:40.074 --> 35:44.237 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of ways to be as transparent as possible while respecting your current clients. 35:44.798 --> 35:44.938 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 35:46.139 --> 35:46.479 [SPEAKER_01]: For sure. 35:47.099 --> 35:49.221 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, CC, I think we have time for one question. 35:49.241 --> 35:50.502 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll go ask you some Heidi. 35:51.296 --> 35:55.138 [SPEAKER_01]: would you discuss the pros and cons of having a literary agent who's also an author? 35:55.618 --> 36:03.181 [SPEAKER_01]: I assume the ultimate answer is always new ones, and that it depends on each individual agent's flash author, but I'd love to hear your general thoughts, thank you. 36:03.461 --> 36:07.522 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm surprised you don't think this is potentially controversial, or like that people will have different opinions on this. 36:08.243 --> 36:11.064 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh no, I definitely think people have different opinions, definitely think that. 36:11.164 --> 36:18.867 [SPEAKER_02]: I just think that I think that's due of most the questions we tackle that people have different opinions, because we're in the it depends industry. 36:19.562 --> 36:25.543 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I, okay, so a pro, I guess, I guess they would know what it's like to write a book and maybe have more empathy. 36:25.623 --> 36:43.327 [SPEAKER_02]: I remember chatting with Elia Hana Habib and the solo episode I recorded will not solo, Elia was with me, but the car that this was when you were off, Elia just wrote a book after you're being a very successful agent and you know she mentioned how she now has even more empathy for her authors and understands it so much more because she went through it. 36:43.847 --> 36:44.867 [SPEAKER_02]: So I guess that's a pro. 36:45.467 --> 36:48.989 [SPEAKER_02]: I think I have heard a lot of writers tell me the following. 36:49.049 --> 36:54.852 [SPEAKER_02]: They've said, I don't want my agent to also be an author because and then in certain reason. 36:55.873 --> 36:58.074 [SPEAKER_02]: If you don't want that, I think that's fine. 36:58.294 --> 37:03.557 [SPEAKER_02]: I think you get to choose absolutely who your agent's going to be and you absolutely get to have a criteria about 37:05.077 --> 37:06.198 [SPEAKER_02]: what you want in your agent. 37:06.258 --> 37:15.843 [SPEAKER_02]: If for some reason that bothers you, okay, I personally think that if the reason is, you don't want them to take time away from agenting to do other things. 37:16.403 --> 37:18.324 [SPEAKER_02]: If that is the reason, then I'll be super honest. 37:18.384 --> 37:21.385 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's a little like my commandagement of your agents' time. 37:21.926 --> 37:24.247 [SPEAKER_02]: It's similar to telling agents, oh, I don't want you to be online. 37:25.008 --> 37:33.116 [SPEAKER_02]: or I don't want you to go to conferences, like we live in a world where people are not just one thing, people do many, many things and they wear many, many hats. 37:33.156 --> 37:35.118 [SPEAKER_02]: And of course, we all have our primary hat. 37:35.738 --> 37:42.905 [SPEAKER_02]: But would you tell someone, and again, this is a conversation I've had with an actual writer at an actual conference, they were like, well, they won't have time to do both. 37:42.926 --> 37:46.669 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, are you telling me that you would never query any of you has kids, for example? 37:46.930 --> 37:47.310 [SPEAKER_02]: Because like, 37:47.932 --> 37:48.713 [SPEAKER_02]: I say it's all the time. 37:48.753 --> 38:10.287 [SPEAKER_02]: The fact that I don't have children means I have at least six, six extra hours in the day, like at least, you know, like are you suggesting it to me it just speaks to the whole like micromanagement of someone's time that that is a terrible reason in my opinion, just my opinion you don't have to agree with me if you're listening, but but if you don't want it for any other reason reason being I just don't want that that's fine. 38:10.327 --> 38:11.368 [SPEAKER_02]: That's totally fine. 38:11.448 --> 38:11.468 [SPEAKER_02]: I 38:12.128 --> 38:19.172 [SPEAKER_02]: I just think there's so many wonderful agents and who are also authors and there are many wonderful acquiring editors who are also authors. 38:19.212 --> 38:23.934 [SPEAKER_02]: I obviously mentioned Alia, but there's also Dania who wrote notes on an execution. 38:24.474 --> 38:28.336 [SPEAKER_02]: One of my all-time favorite books, she's a wonderful agent, there's Eric Smith. 38:28.897 --> 38:31.358 [SPEAKER_02]: On the acquiring editor side, there's Jenny Jackson. 38:31.778 --> 38:35.680 [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes people can do more than one thing, and sometimes people can't. 38:36.860 --> 38:40.283 [SPEAKER_02]: And you get to decide you get to curate, who represents you. 38:40.904 --> 38:45.828 [SPEAKER_02]: But for me, I think if it does bother you, I wouldn't interrogate why. 38:46.309 --> 38:50.593 [SPEAKER_02]: And I would kind of like investigate whether you're making assumptions about how people should spend their time. 38:51.173 --> 38:54.736 [SPEAKER_02]: And I also would interrogate whether you're making other assumptions. 38:55.137 --> 38:55.857 [SPEAKER_02]: Our brain's soon. 38:55.977 --> 38:56.818 [SPEAKER_02]: It's part of being human. 38:57.198 --> 38:59.040 [SPEAKER_02]: And it could be good to use that critical thinking. 38:59.500 --> 38:59.721 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 39:00.341 --> 39:01.842 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that that's that is my thoughts. 39:02.743 --> 39:03.504 [SPEAKER_02]: Those are good thoughts. 39:03.644 --> 39:05.545 [SPEAKER_01]: I have few notes that I draw it down. 39:05.565 --> 39:13.452 [SPEAKER_01]: I think there's a big difference in people's mind also between fiction and nonfiction, or like the topic of the subject matter or the category of what the agent is writing about. 39:13.552 --> 39:19.617 [SPEAKER_01]: As you know, there's multiple agents who have written books on how to get published or any sort of like authorly guides. 39:20.117 --> 39:21.038 [SPEAKER_01]: That is very common. 39:21.478 --> 39:24.860 [SPEAKER_01]: for a lot of authors that feels more comfortable because the agent is staying in their lane. 39:24.940 --> 39:33.104 [SPEAKER_01]: I think when it appears that an agent is quote unquote stepping out of their lane, then maybe they're dividing their attention outside of what they are doing as an agent. 39:33.204 --> 39:37.827 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just fear that agents will leave, like, oh, maybe they like being an author better, then they're going to leave as an agent. 39:37.847 --> 39:40.328 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot of fear going back to the assumptions you're making. 39:40.888 --> 39:46.191 [SPEAKER_01]: I also have seen, not personally, of course, because this is not me, but I mean from being in the business, 39:48.033 --> 39:59.565 [SPEAKER_01]: The people's opinion on that can change because in terms of wanting to or not wanting to work with an agent who is an author because I think when everything is going really well and every all the lanes are really clear and everybody's mental health is really stable. 39:59.966 --> 40:01.708 [SPEAKER_01]: It's fine for everybody to separate these things. 40:01.808 --> 40:04.150 [SPEAKER_01]: I think when any of those things start to slide. 40:05.032 --> 40:19.181 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, authors can create some jealous super-hops, not to say that all authors feel this way, but I have seen authors feel jealous of their agent, maybe finding success, and then they're agent's not able to find them the same success and that can cause some friction and tension. 40:19.301 --> 40:24.624 [SPEAKER_01]: So, I mean, these are just anecdotal things as well, but it's tough, it's tough to navigate all these things. 40:24.684 --> 40:28.406 [SPEAKER_01]: And like you said, there are pros because if an agent can understand what you're going through, there's also that. 40:29.467 --> 40:32.609 [SPEAKER_02]: What does it say about me, that I never thought about the 40:33.428 --> 40:36.650 [SPEAKER_02]: NVPC just mentioned the jealous slash NVP. 40:36.670 --> 40:39.271 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, after you said it, I was like, oh, yeah, people can't feel that way. 40:39.291 --> 40:40.171 [SPEAKER_02]: That makes a lot of sense. 40:40.191 --> 40:41.152 [SPEAKER_02]: Didn't even occur to me. 40:41.732 --> 40:42.892 [SPEAKER_02]: Didn't even occur to me. 40:43.173 --> 40:43.773 [SPEAKER_02]: That's fair. 40:43.953 --> 40:46.574 [SPEAKER_02]: Your agent becomes a successful novelist, for example. 40:46.754 --> 40:49.255 [SPEAKER_02]: And you're like, but I, I'm still trying. 40:49.315 --> 40:52.237 [SPEAKER_02]: And you can feel that, you know, some kind of way about it. 40:52.537 --> 40:53.537 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 40:53.597 --> 40:54.838 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, what does it say about me? 40:54.858 --> 40:55.778 [SPEAKER_02]: Does that even occur to me? 40:56.119 --> 40:56.619 [SPEAKER_02]: I think. 40:58.697 --> 41:00.658 [SPEAKER_02]: I think it just comes down to self-awareness. 41:00.838 --> 41:12.565 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, if you're feeling some type of way about it, pro or con, interrogate your feelings, how much of this is based on assumption, and how much of this is based on fear, how much of this is based on other factors. 41:13.325 --> 41:18.408 [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, you just have to make the best decision for your critical thinking. 41:19.529 --> 41:19.749 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 41:20.429 --> 41:21.090 [SPEAKER_01]: All good points. 41:21.130 --> 41:22.351 [SPEAKER_01]: This is a really interesting question. 41:22.411 --> 41:25.934 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I think if you ask 10 to authors and 10 agents, you're going to get 20 different answers. 41:26.174 --> 41:30.238 [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, it's up to everybody to make their own decisions, because authors do the querying. 41:30.318 --> 41:31.559 [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, you're able to query. 41:31.620 --> 41:32.360 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess there's the whole thing. 41:32.380 --> 41:34.062 [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe your agent becomes an author. 41:34.222 --> 41:37.665 [SPEAKER_01]: After you've signed with them, you know, we can't predict everything that's going to happen in our lives. 41:37.845 --> 41:41.068 [SPEAKER_01]: And discomfort is a reality that we live with every day. 41:41.148 --> 41:45.653 [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, welcome to be a creative, welcome to working to creative industry, full of creative people. 41:46.093 --> 41:48.974 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we're always here for some critical discussion. 41:49.034 --> 41:50.474 [SPEAKER_01]: So thanks for hanging out with us, everybody. 41:50.934 --> 41:51.755 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. 41:51.855 --> 41:52.555 [SPEAKER_00]: See you next week. 41:53.335 --> 41:57.556 [SPEAKER_00]: CC Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. 41:58.036 --> 42:05.699 [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission guidelines at www.wshermon.com. 42:10.997 --> 42:28.337 [SPEAKER_00]: But a work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Colleon this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co-host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS literary agency.