[SPEAKER_01]: A Rod Building family, it's Bill Faulkner, the host of the Mastering Rod Building podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I want to invite you to join us, August 14th through 16th for the 2026 Mastering Rod Building Seminar at the Orange Beach Events Center at the Warf in Orange Beach, Alabama.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is your chance to learn from the best in the rod building industry while enjoying a full weekend of hands-on education, great food, and community fellowship.
[SPEAKER_01]: On Saturday, we'll feed you breakfast, lunch, and have a crawfish boil and shrimp boil dinner on Saturday, plus breakfast and lunch on Sunday.
[SPEAKER_01]: Discounted lodging is available less than a one-minute walk from the venue, so grab your tickets now.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you're bringing others, please be insured and include all attendee names at checkout.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone's 16 and under is invited for free.
[SPEAKER_01]: For more information, email J. Barron at anglersresource.net.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's JBARO in at anglersresource.net or call 251-943-449-1.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can't wait to see you all in Orange Beach.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Mastering Rod Building podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm your host, Bill Faulkner.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got another good one for you today, and this one's a little special in that uh, sometimes when we focus on one type of fish and we hit the north of the south of the east of the west, we're going to get everybody east and west today because my guest is none other than Roger Hinchcliff of the steelhead manifesto.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you are a steelheader and you haven't had your head in the sand for the last, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: you'll know exactly who Roger is and you'll have heard of the SteelS manifesto whether you know him by name or not, but I will do him the courtesy of an introduction.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Roger's been in the industry a long time.
[SPEAKER_01]: He publishes first article, Major magazine article in 1999.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's been writing about hunting and fishing and actively engaged in hunting and fishing ever since.
[SPEAKER_01]: He founded the Steel had manifesto in 2010, right, Roger?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Google blog spots.
[SPEAKER_01]: blog, so you were a really early adopter of the internet.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm jealous.
[SPEAKER_01]: Very accomplished angler too.
[SPEAKER_01]: You won River Angler the year in 2013, and so if you know this, this is like he finished first place out of several hundred anglers in a three state area, kind of a big deal.
[SPEAKER_01]: And after he'd been running the Google blog spot blog for while his kids, I love this part of the story, Roger.
[SPEAKER_01]: Your kids talked to you into this thing called social media.
[SPEAKER_01]: And now you have built out the Steel Ed manifesto across multiple platforms where you've got over 200,000 followers and you're post reach more than 2 million anglers every 30 days.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's pretty impressive, man.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess your kids get a kickback or, you know, I'll be honest with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: What, what they did is then he talked me into getting on it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I did Facebook.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the first things I did was I started creating memes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh gosh, you really weren't, did you admit the meme?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I believe it or not, I've written over 4,000 memes and some of my, oh wait, some of you in T-shirts and bumper stickers today.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure you're getting all the royalties on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure everyone was, you know, not every eye and crossed every tee and you're getting all your royalties.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, the mean thing was real big back then.
[SPEAKER_00]: But well, it's still big with some of us.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sending memes in my text messages all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I bet I've used some of yours almost certainly.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm running out of fresh fishing memes, man.
[SPEAKER_01]: We need you back in the game.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Rodgers also has been a Lambiglass pro staff for a long time and has worked for Lambiglass for more than 10 years.
[SPEAKER_01]: You started as a sales rep. You became a national sales manager and you are now.
[SPEAKER_01]: And for the last several years have been a vice president with Lambiglass which is super exciting.
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, we've had Todd Vivian on before Todd.
[SPEAKER_01]: I used to as a kid.
[SPEAKER_01]: I worked for a company based out of Portland, Oregon, Lake Uswiga, Oregon.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if I got some time off when I was, you know, going to touch the flagpole, I would run to Woodland.
[SPEAKER_01]: and I would go see Jim Britt and English resource.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he would walk me next door and Dick Pozy would walk me around and give me a tour of Lama Glass.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's the first time I ever saw blanks being made, carbon fiber, fiberglass.
[SPEAKER_01]: First time I ever saw blanks being painted with sort of the diaphragm, swipe method, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: First time I saw it, I just fascinated me golden years for me, and absolutely captivated me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that brand, and I'm
[SPEAKER_01]: You guys are really coming back.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's I'm trying to think of the polite way to talk about this without speaking ill of people some of whom really deserve to be spoken ill of but we'll leave that out.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was kind of a
[SPEAKER_01]: The main family member passed and then there was a story.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, please, if you don't mind, I'd love to.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I won't try to redact it and not name anybody.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so when Dick Possey died, his son Tom had taken over the company.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And unfortunately, Tom had died in a plane crash, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: He's 22.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, when COVID started, because of the factory was on the west coast,
[SPEAKER_00]: They were basically saying, you can't be open, you can't make it rather employing it would be around each other, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so Tom had got an idea of putting him in an outsource wrapping plant in Mexico.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: that way we could still produce some robes right and just not be at a total stand still due to the West Coast COVID regulations.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so they'll fast forward Tom passed away and they had appointed a new president and
[SPEAKER_00]: I was his vice president and then the family decided to get back involved because things were not going good in Mexico right and so they closed that factory and they moved all domestic production back to woodland Washington, which is also the opposing son John is the president of the company and that's where we're at today moving forward and this is our 70-5th year.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, this is a significant American brand.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I know we talked about it some with Todd, but I'm just I'm just so glad to see I will tell you from my perspective.
[SPEAKER_01]: You'll have a glass seems very revitalized in the last year or two and way back on the scene and of course you've made so many products at so many people love so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Many of which we're going to talk about today, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep, focusing on the steelhead market.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I ask, no, this is a question of ignorance.
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you a rod builder also, like by hobby or anything, or just happened to be a serious angler and kind of rod designer, rubber tube being an angler?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, a little bit of both.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, because I've been in the industry long enough, I mean, I can build the rod.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: My problem is I'm so busy now, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't have a time, you know, I feel you brother me too.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm we're in the same boat, but it's it's a good kind of busy I guess, but so I always ask every one of my guests because it's such an interesting question.
[SPEAKER_01]: And thank you for sharing the Lama Glass story and like I said, I'm just delighted to see you guys back, Roland with momentum and resuming your rightful place among the proud American brands have been in the leaders in the industry for a long time.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's great to have you back and I'm excited to see what you guys are going to do next.
[SPEAKER_01]: but it always asked my guests how they got into fishing in the first place and maybe how they got in industry.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what's your story mother goose?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well what happened is my dad took me blue geophysion.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh gosh.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I absolutely love that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, did you grow up so you don't a lot of work on the West Coast and you fished all over, but is Michigan home?
[SPEAKER_01]: Michigan is home.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you went blue go fishing originally in Michigan.
[SPEAKER_01]: In Michigan.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that means it was one of four months out of the year that you were not ice fishing or were you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I missed you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but so what happened is some my dad took me, um, blue geophysion.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we started the fire and then unfortunately my parents had divorced.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: When I was eight.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: And my mom moved us to a new house, which was next to a river.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I went fishing every day.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: I rolled my bike down to the river because back then, you know, the crime and different things, you know, you could be 10 years old and take off on your bike and go fish.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, we did it all the time, man.
[SPEAKER_01]: Our parents didn't know where we were and they weren't checking in every hour.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was come back to the street lights, come on.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I wasn't allowed to get in the river.
[SPEAKER_00]: The only time I was allowed to get in the river was in the shallow part to catch a crayfish.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I picked my own night crawlers and I grabbed the windows with a minotrap and I fished for every species in that river.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, so what river was it and what were the fish that were in there?
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so it was the Huron river.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I've heard of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I fished for Northern Pike, Buna Gill.
[SPEAKER_00]: a croppy, a carp, sucker, silver bass, small mouth bass, walleye, and then eventually steal it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: I started planning them, but that was in the different section of the river.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what caused me to get hooked on the salmonoid species is a kid that lived down the street, his name was Dale, and years old, and his family would go up north.
[SPEAKER_00]: salmon fish.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now back then, uh, snagging was legal.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was just what we did.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And today, that's not something that I do, but sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's legal.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's mostly legal.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so my mom let me go and I went on this camping trip and I caught my first salmon on the east side of the state and I got hooked and then obviously when I was old enough to drive then I started, you know, pursuing him I started my first business when I was 12 and that was selling live bait.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, nice.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, digging your worms and catching your shiner and things.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, what happened is I used to pick the worms from the golf course, okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: It is at the church when saved the butter and cottage cheese containers.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then it got so big that I couldn't keep up with the demand.
[SPEAKER_00]: So my mom went to Lansing and then got a sales tax license for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: uh... in her name so i could buy the bait wholesale and then she got a middle license to the uh... dnr and this is when you're twelve years old as a couple of years old that's what i started my first business yet oh man why you you you've been an entrepreneur from the beginning yeah yeah i sold all of my companies uh... in two thousand four and two thousand five yeah well that's awesome so you did it for a long time
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah, yeah, I was an entrepreneur for years and, you know, hey, I grew up poor and I wasn't afraid of work and to do something.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, good on you.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately, you know, that's a, that was a very common ethic in this country for many, many generations and I worry it's getting water down to some degrees day.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, and yeah, it's a great way for a kid to grow up, you know, without hovering parents in a safety bubble on us and harness in their bag on us at all times, climbing trees and doing stuff that we're now being thinkable.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll be honest with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the things that was awesome about it was, you know, I didn't know about flow gauges.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: I could know where the fish and what species I could target.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it caused me to read water.
[SPEAKER_01]: Pay attention, kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't care how much technology there is out there and I don't care how good the wind and water forecasts are generation schedules.
[SPEAKER_01]: predictions of lunar or you know biological peak behavior any of that stuff there is value and just going outside getting practice and paying attention if you are nervous and you spend time doing it you will earn and that knowledge is priceless so that's why there's nothing better than time on the water
[SPEAKER_01]: in any sense, educationally or recreationally, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what made you start the steel head manifesto?
[SPEAKER_00]: So it sounds like after a few years after you told some businesses, you just were feeling the itch, or... Well, no, I mean, I'd always been an angler for steel head, but what I fished for steel head, we threw spinners, spoons, old plugs,
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we would side dripped and back bounce right and it wasn't until later that I got into the film fishing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, side.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I just want bananas over steel and they're my favorite part of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I tell you, I just I recently got a chance to fish for some they're not steelhead.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're lake run rainbows, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: And having fish for river and lake rainbows my whole life, like it's literally a different fish, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: They they they stack up in the current differently than normal river fish.
[SPEAKER_01]: They like more current, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: they stage in different areas.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're always moving and migrating up and down all year doing different things, right, whether it's food sources or mating.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, I just, I'm still in kind of in the recent sea of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm blown away by how different these fish were.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to said I knew that fish really well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now you take a steel head, which is an ad room.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's right, they're sea run.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a totally different animal, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then ant everything up, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: They cover,
[SPEAKER_01]: hundreds of thousands of more miles.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're stronger powerful faster, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: They're very unique in how you fish forms.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, so clearly you're an expert in everybody know, just go look at the steelhead manifesto.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's lots of really good steelhead anglers.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think Rogers advantage is that he started young as he in his own words.
[SPEAKER_01]: He went bananas about it, which I can relate to.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like people that are passionate and all in on the things they pursue because I'm one of those.
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's talk about the steelhead.
[SPEAKER_01]: uh... a couple of times i fish with uh... gary lumus and alicimaz love and the guys from northward composites on the north of the louis river for a couple of days and we actually
[SPEAKER_01]: base on the water conditions of the fisher doing we use bait casters and through wiggle work set up and it was very effective and it was a lot of fun but there's so many techniques you mentioned back bouncing you mentioned side drifting you know there's float fishing clearly you can catch them on spoons jigs plugs all various manners of bait and eggs in row second and there's a whole steelhead fly fishing thing
[SPEAKER_01]: just for just for sake of keeping this conversation sort of manageable and digestible.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not going to talk about that today.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're just going to talk about the conventional side of things, which you admitted to me before we started, you know, recording was your very favorite side of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So where shall we begin?
[SPEAKER_01]: Which technique do you want to start with?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm fascinated by these rods as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as
[SPEAKER_01]: As someone who doesn't really understand this fishery and is only like seeing it on TV or from a distance, it's like man, those guys are using really long rods and they're often using revolving spool, you know, bait casting kind of reels when I'd expect them to be using spinning reels.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, so talk me through the evolution of these techniques and pick one if you want, we start and dive in and talk about the rods for it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so, you know, so for rod builders out there that might be wanting to build a rod for a steelhead angler, the first question needs to be, what technique?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because it's wide, because it is wide and what a lot of people that are
[SPEAKER_00]: but some are going to require a completely different tool.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the more you can optimize the tool for a specific way of fishing on a specific body of water, like the better you can make it perform, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: One hundred jack of all trade is a compromise, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It will do all things that it won't do any of them perfectly, whereas if you dial it in, you can actually make the perfect.
[SPEAKER_01]: drifting rod, the perfect back bounce rod for your fishery for how you like to fish, whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that makes it a little sense to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, if we start with drift fishing, whether it's side drifting or back bouncy, I mean, most guys are going to go with an eight six to nine foot six.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so let's just talk about these techniques really quick.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're talking about fishing typically moving water in a boat, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're the steelhead normally are when they're in the river.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is a way you can cover lots of water on big rivers and is a very effective technique, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: So how would you describe the difference between, you know, side drifting and back bouncing?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's usually explained, I mean.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're parked here in the river and there's a scene there, you're going to cast up and just let it sign growth through the run.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you got the whole thing with that technique is number one sensitivity.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: and out of all the techniques to catch steel in, sensitivity is the most important deal when you're sidetrifting or back bouncing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, because at that point, you're trying to feel the bite, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But you're also trying to feel the weight ticking the bottom.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, staying in contact with the bottom because the fish are always in that bottom third.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so so that would be like my definition of side drifting.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then that bouncy we generally go right out the back of the boat.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now you can do two techniques.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can anchor up or you could use a trolling motor or
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, so that the first thing down is your bait you're presenting, not the boat, not the way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now there's some people that will anchor up and the baitcaster works really good doing this technique.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I do that and here on River when I back bounce you just hit the spool of the and just.
[SPEAKER_00]: let line out and you're not even moving the boat.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and then once you get so far down, you're real land again, cover another section and then once you've covered that water and you just moved down, but that would be kind of like your drift.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so why so long a rod.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think of eight six is being pretty long like you know kind of fly rod length longer than we're typically using for you know bass or most salt water applications talk to me about that long rod and that just give you more line control and ability to sort of set hook and manage fish on longer drifts or
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's a couple of things going on there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I'll be honest with you, to me, a nine foot six is a short rod.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, wow, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we can get into that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, when you're on the West Coast, a nine six or a 10 six or an eight six, those three links work really, really well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, because
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, the rivers are different and how they get to those rivers, how they fish for those fish is different than in the Great Lakes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, but anyways, yes, a longer rod gives you many of the advantages.
[SPEAKER_00]: Number one is line control.
[SPEAKER_00]: when you're float fishy right and we can talk about that in depth once we cover that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Another reason why you want a longer rod is if you weren't going to throw the spinners or the spoons, you can cast a cast in your distance.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the other reason why you'd like a longer rod for this back balance or side drifting is to help protect those leaders.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't think about that because these are fish with good eyes and relatively clear water, but high gradients, high flows a lot of case.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was still in concealing 24 different colors.
[SPEAKER_00]: They can see.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just as good as you and I can.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not as good as it used to be for some.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the older I get, the less colors in the less well-essie.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm pretty sure they've got me beat, Roger.
[SPEAKER_01]: These days.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well you mentioned the float fishing so when when I think of float fishing and this is a very popular way and I've done a little bit of this modified for big trout in Arkansas and it works right I mean what works it almost like a bobber with a long leader right and either a split shot rig and like my favorite is it is either a jig or that you know the pink worm right like and And I know this is a steel head technique they can be very effective on trout also that don't know it's a steel head technique don't tell the trout in Arkansas
[SPEAKER_01]: but um so so again that makes a lot of sense right you're trying almost like you're trying to men line with a fly rod you're trying to keep line up off the water manager get a dead drift right and float control the float of into the seams and pockets and places where you know the fish are holding and you want to get this natural presentation of the jig or the worm or whatever well yeah so when you float fish uh
[SPEAKER_00]: your goal is to, if this is your flow, you want everything to swing out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Way ahead of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the only thing the fish is seen is the bait.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, be a jig, a spawn sack.
[SPEAKER_00]: What you want is to get that bait.
[SPEAKER_00]: way out in front of the float.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the only thing they see is the presentation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Very natural presentation, nothing to say.
[SPEAKER_00]: Natural presentation because the steel head knows about current speed and they know how fast things should be going by life.
[SPEAKER_00]: But see, fishing is mathematics.
[SPEAKER_00]: The more water you can cover,
[SPEAKER_00]: The longer your bait is in the water, the more fish you're going to catch.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the purpose of a 13 foot center pin rod, for example, is I can cover longer water and I can lift that line up and mend it with ease.
[SPEAKER_00]: And more importantly, if the float does go down, I can pick the line up very quickly and set the hook at a distance.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so this is interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am, I know what a center pin real is, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So these are these large direct drive reels, with drags that are almost like there's some styles.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can turn almost like a spinning reel spool to cast.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's other casting mechanisms.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's somewhere between, I mean, to me, it's almost like somewhere between a fly reel and a multiplier reel, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, what it is, is it's on a binnery?
[SPEAKER_00]: And there is some that have drags, but the majority of them don't have a drag.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what happens is with that bearing, it's a free spool, so the current takes it down at that correct current speed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Ah, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's about presentation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because I haven't done it and I obviously don't understand it very well, but I did sit at a bar one night and listen to conventional anglers and center pin anglers going back and forth insulting each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: which I thought was interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Any where there's passion and more than one way to do anything, rivalry, infriction will develop, I guess, but yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the center pin guys didn't get up on.
[SPEAKER_00]: All of it works.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just think things have its place in time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if it's, well, it makes you happy God bless America.
[SPEAKER_00]: 100%.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that is a distinct type of rod, typically for steel add to is this center pin rod, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's typically a float fishing set up.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is a float fishing set up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: And really, the purpose of it is like we do what's called trotting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I'm not heard of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: The center pin reel and calls that float to tick back.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we slow the presentation down through that water column, and we call that trotting and just staying in the strike zone longer, see in cold water, see in the great lakes versus the west coast, your average river in the Pacific Northwest does not get below 38 degrees.
[SPEAKER_00]: in the Great Lakes, that's 33 degrees, and so as the water gets colder and colder, the fish get very lethargic, and they slow down, and they're literally swimming in the current.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, almost like they're in a coma.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like they're asleep, but they're alive.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so sometimes, you know, at 45 degree water, sorry, I'm a steal and nerd.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now let's get it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me five degree water or less, steal heads, metabolism starts to slow down.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because they don't want to move great distances to chase a bait, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Though it becomes inches.
[SPEAKER_00]: a game of inches in the winter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's interpane.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Warfare using a bait cast reel, or you could feather the spool with your thumb.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just a deadly technique in colder water.
[SPEAKER_00]: But at the end of the day, when it's coming to rods, it really two depends on the body of water that you're fishing.
[SPEAKER_01]: OK.
[SPEAKER_00]: So like for example, my home river, I can get away with a 10-6 or an 11-foot-6 rod.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I don't need a 13 footer, but when I'm fishing big water, I got to have a 13 footer.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you mentioned, you mentioned the leaders, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, again, I'm very familiar with kind of trout leaders and what we would typically have to use depending on where we're fishing and what time of year and how pressure the fish are, you know, and what the presentation is or what they're eating and all that kind of stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: Talk to me about line and leader setup for this kind of stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean what what's these days?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I guess the floor carbon revolution has hit steel adding to I mean what what size leaders are we typically fish in when we're doing these various techniques for steel add?
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so I'm in the great lakes.
[SPEAKER_00]: People fish for to 10 pound liters.
[SPEAKER_00]: That light for those big fish.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Eight pound would be the most popular.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then out west, when I'm fishing for trophy steel, and I fish up to 20.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: leader.
[SPEAKER_00]: But here's the funny thing, and you know, I mean, I'm trying to make this educational for folks too in case they're educating me.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what I do seminars, you know, I do a lot of seminars all across the United States, every season.
[SPEAKER_00]: And guys will say, well, Roger, I can't get bit if I'm not using four or six pound leader, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you're fishing for overfished fish, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: They're educated.
[SPEAKER_01]: very educated.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I say to them, why would you fish six pound leader when you can get 10 pound leader that's at a six pound diameter?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So today's lines, especially from Japan, oh, yeah, are the best floral carbons and fishing lines we've ever had, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: They're amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so yes, I get it on an overfished fish that's
[SPEAKER_00]: that smaller diameter line works.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so for the most part, people facing the Great Lakes 6 to 10 and I would think out west 12 pound or bigger is very popular from stealing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just because they've got bigger fish.
[SPEAKER_00]: They've got bigger fish.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: Got that pain to me to admit.
[SPEAKER_01]: The West Coast has bigger fish than back in the field.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a difference to in the fishery, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So when I fish out west, you make fish all day for three to six bites, you know, I mean, I could take you out at prime time in a Michigan stream and you could hook 20 or 30 fish in one day.
[SPEAKER_00]: oh wow so there's a trade off there for sure yeah yeah so we're home to the world's largest steelhead population on planet earth but we're also home to the most steelhead anglers on planet earth in the Great Lakes yeah cuts both ways it cuts both ways yeah you mentioned the some of the Japanese leader lines and things you have any particular favorites that you like the best
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, my absolute favorite hands down and and I say this in my seminars.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't care if people get offended or not, I'm the guy that made some line FC sniper Frank Charles sniper.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, popular in the world of salmon and steel and the best guys have been using it for years a long time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, it's a long long time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought, you know, I do anywhere from 28 to 35 still had seminars this season.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm West Coast East Coast Midwest.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm all over.
[SPEAKER_00]: I talked to thousands anglers a year.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I have to tell you, and I tell people, because I've tested many lines, deep best lines come from Japan.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And some line Frank Charlie Sniper, FC Snipers.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, well, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Interesting yeah, I don't I don't think of that as a as a although I use it for trout in some of the small sizes, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So it makes sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's there's some exciting developments there with different extrusion technologies and stuff that's going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen some really interesting stuff in the last year in my travels to Japan and elsewhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: a monofilament but it's slow extruded with very high quality nylon and then it's surface treated with hot water so it makes it completely round and I don't know how to describe this other then that stuff just stays round and doesn't um
[SPEAKER_01]: doesn't go oval or flatten or distort or ribbon out or anything and it is just incredibly abrasion resistant and incredibly strong for diameter.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just like a difference.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would absolutely love to try that.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to send you some.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to make a note.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the least I can leave for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Humoring us on the podcast here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I've actually, uh, I have my family makes fun of me.
[SPEAKER_00]: They call it the steel head shit.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got a, I got a, I got a steel head manifesto.
[SPEAKER_01]: Guys, got to have a steel head shit, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we're all in 12 shit.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll back where I was doing all my mad scientist experiment.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, when I test fishing lines, a friend of mine has a laboratory in Wix and Michigan, then I go, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I've actually taken and tested the absorption rate of various monos, because all fishing lines are going to absorb 15 to 35 percent of the moisture right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Benina, how does that affect them, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And how it's made.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I would love to try that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is very clear.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is very, very clear.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm
[SPEAKER_01]: getting away with using a much higher pound test than I've typically been able to get away with.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've been using, I really like this ultra light technique for trout and bass and salt water called bait finesse system or BFS.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like ultra light bait casting.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're throwing tiny little spoons and plugs and plastics.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm using, I mean, normally I was using 3, 4, 5 pound floro Japanese floro.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm using 10 pound of this stuff and I'm getting the same bites and I'm not losing fish.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you still lose fish.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you hook their wrong fish in the wrong place,
[SPEAKER_01]: and I'm a little bit fish around and find out, but yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to make a stick on that point, but I'll send you some, I'd be really interested in your opinion.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, you send me some of that, you're going to get a Christmas car.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, done, deal, I'll take that deal every day of the week.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to get your mailing address and we get off here and I'm going to send it to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's really interesting stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll be fastening, you should put it in the laboratory.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll send you one to fish and one to put in the laboratory and you tell me what you think.
[SPEAKER_01]: But all that is to say, it makes sense that the rate these technologies are improving and everything else.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is getting better and I haven't even gotten into some of these ester lines and some of these things that the Japanese are using for ultra light applications It's not even a traditional nylon right or fluorocarbon.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's it's something else entirely for that very specific use case, which is interesting
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so you're using these leaders typical would be eight as light as four as high as 10, but use a small diameter really strong line because that's Yeah, get you the most bang for your buck as a sort of speak for your presentation and I guess our most guys running braid these days to that leader or is that the most prevalent typically
[SPEAKER_00]: In the west coast, braid is more popular.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and in the great lakes, it's popular in the fall and the spring.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Call it comfort steel and okay, but during the winter time, it's tough to fish braid because it picks up the ice and water.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, ice and so you just run straight monorist straight floro then.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's what I typically do.
[SPEAKER_00]: I need a lot of model with a floral leader.
[SPEAKER_00]: OK. Or I will run braid, but I'll run a real, a small diameter.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I treat it with new ceiling.
[SPEAKER_00]: OK, that's old flyline paste.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: I bet that makes it float like crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's different products that you can spray your guides down with.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: But back to the rod building aspect,
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the things if a guy has a person that wants to have a steelhead rod built, one of the things that the builder needs to find out is what size guides you want because if it's a great lakes steelhead angular, typically we want larger guides to help with icy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had someone ask me questions about, I get questions all the time about God trains through Fuji, and I had someone say that recently and said, I'm not going below eights because of ice, and I thought about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I hadn't thought of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was, I think that was for a center pin rod, actually.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas on the West Coast, they don't have to be as concerned about that so they can go with slightly more traditional sizes, I guess.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so like on the center pin rods, it's usually like a light rod with medium power.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, more of a progressive action.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, now when you're fishing the shorter rods, you still need it to be soft, but like if you're throwing a spoon or you're throwing spinters or you're throwing a crankbait, you know, you don't need something that soft.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But typically for the drift fishing, it's 8 to 6, the 9 to 6, and then like for spoons or for spinners, guys will throw like a 9 to 6 to 10 foot.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the spoon guys, some of them love a 10 or 11 foot rod for throwing spoons.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then for float fishing, it's basically 10 foot 6,
[SPEAKER_01]: up on that depending on how big your river is right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, now we can't it up or in New York.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not uncommon to see guys with 15 foot rocks.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I wouldn't want to have to ship one of those blanks these days.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I got to tell you that is out of control.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if I could just gripe about that, you know, we had to cut some of our rods down because you couldn't ship it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I had to go to 710, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, 710.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now get this from the west coast to ship a 7 foot 10 rod all the way to the east coast
[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen worse than that, actually.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a really good.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen a lot in the like 140 to 160 range, which is just my great job.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, especially, yeah, especially for something like a blank, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's not even a built rod.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's, it becomes prohibitive, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is a reason to go visit your local, you know, and it's a, it's a, it's a real consideration for distributors these days.
[SPEAKER_01]: People selling blanks, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Cause they're having to pay to have them shipped in and then they're having to pay to ship them out.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll tell you, Roger, my personal experience is not only as the cost gone up exponentially since COVID, I have literally had, I think I started building rods in the May of 1995, started selling rods and I bet I had three ever, two of them broken, one of them stolen, just a UPS, I'm sorry, a FedEx employee disappeared, and they never got it back, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I eventually filed a claim and eventually got paid for that and learned a hard lesson about ensuring it for replacement value, not just cost of parts, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I've basically got hoes done the labor and had to rebuild it for free.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I've had more of them, and three in 25 years, and then for the last five or six years, it's like we have an appreciable loss rate shipping out blanks.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't imagine being in the rod business like you guys are always lame.
[SPEAKER_01]: it's a daily occurrence literally it's become that and it's like everyone's okay with it you know like we're like the frogs in boiling water it's like this is ridiculous and you change to square tubes not round tubes you shortened from eight foot to seven ten you do all these things and I
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the other thing I would say about the chip in those long blanks.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like they don't want you to do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the failure rate or damage rate on those is extremely high.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they, they say it's automated to fade.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everything's all this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like the department.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Her name is Kitty.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's getting there over 30 years and you need a pair of clients to get into the box.
[SPEAKER_00]: because she really does a lot of pack.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that good honor, we need it these days, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Both keep them from walking away and to keep them in the number of pieces they're supposed to be in.
[SPEAKER_01]: So one of the things that's mysterious a little bit to me, Roger, with the steelheading is like real selection.
[SPEAKER_01]: I sort of joked about this earlier.
[SPEAKER_01]: How do we think about casting reels, revolvings full reels, you know, conventional reels versus spinning reels?
[SPEAKER_01]: We already talked about the center pins, which you said, you know, that's a very unique thing specifically for trotting when you're drifting in backbounds and doing these things, or sorry, floating, float fishing in that.
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you think about as an expert angler or steelhead angler?
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you think about casting versus spinning?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you just use what you're comfortable with or you base it on the technique or the things that are sort of proven one of those or the other that's proven to work better for certain techniques or if I'm just straight into this or I'm trying to advise a customer on how to think about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: What words of wisdom would you give us?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, to be honest, it really depends on where I'm at, the body of water, water temperature, and what I'm trying to present for the day, because I use the center pins, spinning reels, and big casting reels, just depending on what you're doing and where.
[SPEAKER_00]: independent on what I'm doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so for size of real, like for example, a baitcaster in the Great Lakes, I like to run a 150 size.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: On 200 size baitcaster.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now when I go out west, I run a 300 size bait cast.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's only for more drag pressure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then for spinning reels is typically a 250 series 300 series in the great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you can get away with a 4,000 series spending real.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a little too big for stealing it in the great lakes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's no problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and in for center pins, I'll run anywhere from 4.75 to 5.75 inch in diameter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how the eSize those reels.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's by the inches in it affects the line pickup.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, when I'm out west, I like to fish a 5.5 or 5.75 real because I got faster line pickup.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: make sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's fascinating.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, see, every time I have someone like you on these episodes, it costs me money because now I'm like, I'm going to have to get a center pin real.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to have to build a product for this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm just too curious.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't help, but I want to try one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I do have a coupon for fish, you want to say, I can send out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, there we go.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, man, send it to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it still the steel head manifesto?
[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to have to help me pick the real though.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've told you everything I know about center pin reals.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know where I'd start in terms of brand or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they can get prices.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I love every time I sit every time I sit there and I'm about to be mad about I'm spinning on a saltwater reel.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a flyrails that cost more than that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a direct drive like non-geared reel.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, okay, this price argument is out the window.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just need to shut up and buy what I need, but just do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, it's the good ones I assume, just like flyrails fully machined, you know, ported and lightened and really good quality materials and, you know, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: you need it free school well it's got to be well built right there's no free lunch interesting so we we talked a couple of times about just that in California there's different size steel head different numbers of steel head and that's sort of informs the tackle we talked a little bit about the fact that there's you maybe you're dealing with ice more in the season you know back yesterday in the Great Lakes and maybe not so much on the West Coast although I know they sometimes get ice out there um
[SPEAKER_01]: what what are the other major differences like when you're gearing up for a trip or when you're advised in anglers anything else that really jumps out at you in terms of the difference between how we do it in the great lakes or versus on the west coast.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah I mean at the end of the day
[SPEAKER_00]: So when you're out west, you're typically fishing from a drift boat, okay, and because the access to those rivers isn't like in the Great Lakes, meaning not a lot of walk-in access points.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's correct.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the only way to access that is through a drift boat or raft, you know, and so what happens is when you're in a boat,
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't land a fish with a 13-foot rod.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you can, but it's going to be difficult.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how you do without heisticking, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's why a lot of people out West will typically use a 12-foot or less.
[SPEAKER_00]: And a 10-foot six is like the money zone for many people.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then, so that would be on the length of steelhead rod.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then, and then, obviously, we talked about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: higher-pound test, more drag pressure, you know, bigger leaders, bigger books, yeah, you know, like a popular hook size here for a J, for example, we'll pick on a jig in the Great Lakes, we fish 164th ounce,
[SPEAKER_00]: to 130 second ounce with a size eight or 10 jiggle.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Out west, one of my jigs may have a three out to four out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Jig hook.
[SPEAKER_01]: Man, I was just sitting here thinking about as a great aficionado of Maribou jigs and hair jigs for trout and bass and everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a very effective way to fish.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe not trendy and new, but I'm actually, if you could see off camera, I've been sitting here tying spinning up a bunch of Maribou jigs for trout fishing and Arkansas later in the fall.
[SPEAKER_01]: But, um,
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'd be worried about you got to have a specialized gig head that's at small 64 30 second of an ounce that has a good enough hook.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's a hard fight and fish the size of what you're catching, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's true.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been with him for a long time in my career.
[SPEAKER_00]: The reason why he's built such a great business is back then.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nobody had a lot like that in a gig.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: because we couldn't get a strong enough hook.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: On the hooks, we did get, we had to modify the mold to pour those jigs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's where Tom came in and brought us a strong hook in a jig.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's still out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's got great plastics and he's got great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you did.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's got, I think they make jigs.
[SPEAKER_01]: They got a whole selection.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: His claim to fame is the jigs.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and if you're interested, this is, and I don't know him, we don't get any professional or, you know, consideration from him, but it's Voodoo, like it sounds, V-O-O-D-O-O, custom tackle.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know this because I bought some, some tying materials and some, some, some painted an unpainted jiggheads from him because they are a very, very high quality hook and he's down in the sizes that I need him to be in.
[SPEAKER_01]: So.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Awesome.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: They work.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a very good high quality black nickel hook.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's this limited number of people that make a high quality hook in that and I can honestly say, you know, I represent many brands and if I put my name on it, it's got to be good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, if I support it, it's got to be good because I'm not going to use something to don't work.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: takes takes all this time to build a reputation and in one out of a reputation to ruin it, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm fascinated by the consideration for ice on the braid and possibly using the musilin on the braid, you know, and all that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what other, if we're in, we said use, large, larger running guides like eights, geez, I can't get it out.
[SPEAKER_01]: We talked about using the mucillin and using the larger running guides and ice.
[SPEAKER_01]: What other ice and, and again, efficient in ice is I've done it a few times, but I mean only just where I was dealing with it in the morning or the sun came out and I wouldn't deal with it anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: What are the other things anglers need to take into account with their gear, with the rods and reels when you're, if you're going to be steel-ed vision and dealing with ice in the great lakes in the winter time?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, there's many things that anglers do with their steel head rods to help with I.C.
[SPEAKER_00]: The one that we talked about from the rod building standpoint is to put the larger guys on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some guys use chapstick.
[SPEAKER_00]: They use the Stanley, ice-off paste.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: They will take ham cooking spray.
[SPEAKER_00]: and spray it down, you know, some guys have put, you know, WD40.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's also products out there that are D-icers that come with, I think that the products called no-ice, okay, looks with an applicator and you just swab the inside of ceramic guides.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was that and those are things that you could help with for for the icy another tip.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't think I've ever talked about this, but when I'm running a baitcaster, what I'll do is take my rod tip and point it towards the water.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: And leave my grade floating.
[SPEAKER_00]: further into the water instead of lifting my rod tip up because now that what line that's where it freezes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, yeah, we're freezes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so use the water to keep it frozen.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that makes everything that you can do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's that's fascinating.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm getting cold just sitting here thinking about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's it's good to know if you find find myself out there that I'll have those shots in my bag, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you never know when you need to know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, man.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's awesome.
[SPEAKER_00]: What have we not talked about?
[SPEAKER_01]: What other things should people be aware of in the you teaching your seminars on this kind of steelhead primer stuff?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, what I would do is I try to tell people, you know, I get into the biology of the fish and different things, memory spans and other things and how these fish get educated.
[SPEAKER_00]: into one technique, and that's not good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when you go to the river, you want to be able to throw a spawn bag, a worm, you know, a worm jig combo, a meribu jig, or a bead, a throw a spinner, you know, like early in the season, I'm throwing spinners.
[SPEAKER_00]: because there's not a lot of fish around, and I'm using that as a searching bait, okay, define what fish that we do have and where they're located.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's like late September, first week of October.
[SPEAKER_00]: Once we get into November, I'm talking about the great lakes.
[SPEAKER_00]: By that time, all the tributaries have fish.
[SPEAKER_00]: But what I would tell people is, make sure you have
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, not all your eggs in one basket.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Have multiple different techniques.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in the last thing I would touch on is like for example, you're talking about fishing for these trout.
[SPEAKER_00]: Where did you say Arkansas?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, on the white river in Arkansas.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Big river system with a lot of big trout in it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So one of the most common things that a lot of people don't pay attention to is calling.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I did a podcast on salmon trout, steelhead or magazine called Steelhead, don't wear sunglasses.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's actually the name of my book.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to finish this book.
[SPEAKER_00]: I got 22 chapters written.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh gosh.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hopefully someday I'll get this thing finished.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been working on like five years.
[SPEAKER_00]: But anyways, as far as color goes, everyone thinks she are true, orange, and paint.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, those are great colors.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: What?
[SPEAKER_00]: How many people think of the color black?
[SPEAKER_00]: How about the color canary yellow?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: The color blue.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I was going to say steal had guys use that blue a lot and use the hot pants and purples a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's been something I've tried and it works on other sandnits.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'll tell you, if you get time, listen to that podcast, they've asked me to do a part two to that because I, you know, I'm limited in how much I can talk about in the certain amount of time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's the name of the podcast again in which episode?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't wear sunglasses.
[SPEAKER_00]: You let don't wear sunglasses.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it will change, it's a game changer.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, it will literally change.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't matter what fish species you're after, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I fish for small mouth, walleye, catfish, carp, love carp fishing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, they're tough, man, that's like, that's challenging.
[SPEAKER_00]: yeah well carp carp have the longest memory span of any freshwater fish and they have the largest brain of any freshwater fish and makes that they get educated they can be hard in the catch.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But anyways, my point is, is as a steel head angler, you need to have different techniques and don't forget about different colors, because like if you go to a dam where the dam is a barrier, the fish cannot get any further, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then they start stacking up as they arrive, going down the river.
[SPEAKER_00]: These anglers go there and they cast all day long, pink this, pink that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying that that doesn't work or course it does, but then a guy comes in and he throws a bait that may be purple or blue and they've never seen it and they've never seen it to shine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: How is the memory span of a steelhead?
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's directly related to their metabolism, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a high metabolism phase and slow metabolism fish, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And the reason why God made all fish with the two different metabolisms is easily explained.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you add a high metabolism phase all the way around,
[SPEAKER_00]: they could literally eat themselves out of extinction.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just a series of low food, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: They would wipe out their own population, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so there's two different metabolisms.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then when you look at us as a human species, you'll see some of us are taller, some of us are shorter, some of us are fatter like me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Easy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm working on it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so anyways, what happens is a high metabolism fish has the shortest memory span.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you can catch that fish, take a picture with it, release it, and five minutes later, catch that same fish.
[SPEAKER_00]: or that same high metabolism fish because they've done all these experiments, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: They've been trying to draw out, they put them in the tank, there's a black bar, they know just the black bar, the food pellets would come down and feed them.
[SPEAKER_00]: 90 days later, they took those same fish, put them in a different tank and just hand-fed them.
[SPEAKER_00]: 90 days later, they brought them back to the tank.
[SPEAKER_00]: Guess what happened?
[SPEAKER_01]: What?
[SPEAKER_00]: They remembered if I hit the
[SPEAKER_00]: And so they've done this with bass and trout and other fish species can determine that fish do actually have memory spans and it's related to their metabolism.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the high metabolism fish, you can catch it, release it, you can catch it five minutes later or it might not bite for 30 days.
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you with me?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, now on a slow metabolism fish, they have the longest memory span.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you catch a slow metabolism fish and you release it, that same fish might not bite for 90 days.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: And what you need to understand is there's always that guy out there who knows everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, how can they not eat for 90 days?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, technically, a steelhead out west could go 12 months without eating.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, let that sink in for a moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: In the Great Lakes, it's six months.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, how is this accomplished?
[SPEAKER_00]: What happens is there's a hormone in their body called Theroxin, and that's all, the metabolism, and the Theroxin levels, that's all related to several different factors.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to take you down an hour, long biology lesson.
[SPEAKER_00]: But what happens is there's stomach shrinks to make room for the milk and the eggs for the upcoming spawn.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you catch a steel head and you harvest one,
[SPEAKER_00]: either absolutely nothing or undigested food, period, interesting, okay?
[SPEAKER_01]: So the body's put in all the energy to reproduction.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's correct.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so we make this priority one again.
[SPEAKER_00]: Beautiful chrome fish.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you say, well, what happens to their scales?
[SPEAKER_00]: What people think their scales fell off?
[SPEAKER_00]: No, their bodies absorb them from nutrition.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they live off their scales and their fat reserves and that slow metabolism, and that's how they can go six months without eating.
[SPEAKER_00]: So fish do have memory spans, all fish do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so if you want, I'll explain to you how we get different types of fish.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's called through sneakers.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd love to.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you don't mind, this is fascinating.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so we have, so a steel head, a female steel head, picks her mate by smelling the strength of the fish's immune system.
[SPEAKER_00]: The fish that has the strongest immune system is what is the one she wants to mate with on the red, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's typically larger buck, bigger surface area, more healthy fat fish.
[SPEAKER_00]: They can smell, okay, this is the one I want to mate with.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll think about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: If we add a high metabolism fish, fertilizing all those eggs, that's all we're gonna get.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is where the sneakers come in.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when you see the smaller juvenile fish that have different metabolisms, they will sneak in at the moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: The big male is gonna let it spawn loose, let it sperm loose.
[SPEAKER_00]: They will block the sperm and release their sperm.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's how you get genetic diversity.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's fascinating.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is fascinating.
[SPEAKER_01]: Huh, that's fine, that's yeah, my mine is a little bit blown.
[SPEAKER_01]: Who are the like, Lee, what universities and areas are like the main researchers on this kind of stuff?
[SPEAKER_01]: If somebody wanted to learn more about this and was fascinated, like, what are the best sources to learn more about this steel?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there are several guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't remember the gentleman's name from British Columbia.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's done and led a lot of this research.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, who goes your friend?
[SPEAKER_00]: I've known about all this stuff for a very, very long time and
[SPEAKER_00]: once you know it you're not on their looking for it because I already know it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm smelling my pets.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not getting any immune system.
[SPEAKER_01]: Off of myself.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure what immune system smells like, man.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, so, what it takes as much as I can get.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, so, so, so, so, so, so I wouldn't just educate people, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: When we're talking about salmon and steel, they can smell in parts per billion.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's remarkable.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, if you cannot wrap your head around how good that is, that's a thousand times better than my German short-haired pointer.
[SPEAKER_01]: look at sinking so many times better than us, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: A thousand times better than a dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's insane.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when you think about what these fish do and they're remarkable, how far they travel and can return to right where they
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, they have to have some pretty remarkable mechanisms to be able to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, they do, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: The bodies are made up of magnetite.
[SPEAKER_00]: They have a pino gland between their eyes.
[SPEAKER_00]: They have an onboard GPS system.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: They know where they're at at all times.
[SPEAKER_00]: by that magnetic, and the pole from the, you know, that was fair to move and excite.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they can navigate.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then what seals the deals when they smell that natal water were they smolded, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's easier to smell when you've got it in parts per billion, capable of building discernment, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, 100%.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's crazy, man.
[SPEAKER_01]: remarkable fish.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they are.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why they're my favorite.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, no, I get it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just it.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is fascinating.
[SPEAKER_00]: most people most people know me for salmon and steelhead and trout yeah but I truly am a multi species angular anything at freshwater or even saltwater I go down the Florida fish and offshore all the way I fish for anything that swims I just love fish the tugs the drug but if you were yeah yeah all of them still adds my favorite yeah that's awesome yeah
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I see why and it's there's clearly, you know, I don't
[SPEAKER_01]: I haven't done enough of it to know it that well, but I'll tell you, I know I've talked to several people, know a lot of people, really good anglers, and once they run into those steelheads, it's like it's over for them, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: They're done.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's their hooked, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's a, that's an impressive fish of 1,000 casts for a reason.
[SPEAKER_00]: And for anybody out there just getting into steelhead angling, you got to hang with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, come to one of my seminars at these consumer shows that I do around the country or get I know to or just Google my name.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've got a lot of content out there, steeladmanofesto.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm starting to write more blog articles again, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: But just immerse yourself and learn as much as you can because these fish can be very difficult to catch, especially as the season wears on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, in the beginning, they're easier to catch because they're fresh and they haven't been educated, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then as they get caught and released or meet lockered up, you need that high water event or temperature event to bring you more fresh fish, which will give you more willful biders.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But as the season wears on, it can get difficult to catch them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you do catch one,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, they are they are powerful powerful thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, when we think about their distance athletes, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: They're an adrimous.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they cover a lot of that planet.
[SPEAKER_00]: And what's up with the West Coast?
[SPEAKER_00]: They come from Japan and Russia.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the ones and Idaho, those those things travel seven to 800 miles.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: So.
[SPEAKER_01]: amazing fish.
[SPEAKER_01]: They really are.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, man, I have learned a ton, Roger.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: You mentioned the book.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have a title for the book yet?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's still had no words sung last.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a good one.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you got 21 chapters in, but you're not sure when you're going to be done yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I got 22 chapters.
[SPEAKER_00]: But now I've got to figure out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do I want all those and in what order?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I got to have photos and illustrations.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: My problem is I'm busy, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, just sitting around doing nothing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, you'll figure it out.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's worth figuring it out.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to buy it when you do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, well, thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm fascinated.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to hear what you got to say.
[SPEAKER_01]: All of this is just absolutely fascinating to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, man.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you so much for joining me.
[SPEAKER_01]: It has been a pleasure to talk to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you want to learn more Google Steelhead Manifesto, obviously, if you're like me, you're going to go chase down this podcast episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: Steelhead don't worry, sunglasses and be on the lookout for the the book by the same name.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to see you at I cast.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, if I, I'm only going to go for one day.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, maybe two days.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but yeah, I'll make sure I stop him and see you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Man, I would, I would love it if you would.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd love to shake hands and say hi.
[SPEAKER_01]: I usually see you, but yeah, I would love to make sure we do it no matter what.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, that sounds good build man.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for your time and thank you all for tuning in and listening and enjoying it It's one more time here on the mastering rod building podcast Please remember to like subscribe and download wherever you get your podcast content We'll see you right here next time on the mastering rod build