[SPEAKER_02]: This episode of True's Table is brought to you by our NAACP Image Award-nominated book, True's Table, Black Women's Musings on Life, Love, and Liberation.
[SPEAKER_02]: Get it where all books are sold.
[SPEAKER_01]: Brothers, y'all all right?
[SPEAKER_01]: If this is your first time at truth's table, welcome to the table.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you've been sitting at the table with us all these years.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are so grateful that you have been listening to us through these years.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we are inviting you to partner with us and support our work at patreon.com slash truth's table.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now pull up a chair and have a seat at the table with us.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey y'all welcome to choose table mid-wise the culture for race and truth.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a Camini and I'm Christina.
[SPEAKER_01]: This table is the by black woman and four black women.
[SPEAKER_01]: So welcome to the table see how you doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, I'm out here.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a lot going on in the world.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's not even the topic of this episode, but it's these are spicy times and I don't and I don't mean that like in a, you know, delightful way.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, like,
[SPEAKER_03]: and like it's trying to burn, you gotta wait.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, with that being said, I imagine as people are listening in, you know, this, this, this lot's going on.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, I'm excited and eager for this conversation.
[SPEAKER_03]: Today, how are you doing today?
[SPEAKER_01]: I am good, like you, there is a lot going on, but I'm glad to be at this table with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm glad about the topic on the table on.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I mean, we haven't quite titled this episode yet, but you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we didn't realize the price, but we are talking about singleness.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this, but I was saying, particular long-term singleness, protracted singleness, however, you know, you can, you can look at more than a season.
[SPEAKER_01]: More than a season, more often we wouldn't end it single.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, you know, I'm not gonna single our single-by-choice, praise God for your country.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, but for those, you know, that are a single long of a man-tint.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's what I'm saying about a single-by-circum stance.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, single-by-circum stance.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is the topic on the table and we have a special guest at the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Come on now.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have our brother,
[SPEAKER_00]: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
[SPEAKER_00]: But they're doing it in his 40s.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like this.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's something to longevity.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was just kind of chatting beforehand that you guys have y'all coming up almost a decade, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, everybody got a podcast now.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, should we need to probably put some regulations on it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'll talk to you for another day.
[SPEAKER_00]: But for you guys and what y'all have been doing, a lot of talks about what you bring to the table, y'all bring truth to the table, man, on the long time fan.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And happy to be here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much my brother.
[SPEAKER_01]: We appreciate you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what before we launch it?
[SPEAKER_01]: I know we are going to have a rich conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it will.
[SPEAKER_01]: Before we launch it, let me tell the people a little something about you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, say who Brown is a writer, filmmaker and tell the award winning producer.
[SPEAKER_01]: whose work examines the gap between what Christians are taught to expect and what they actually experience, particularly around singleness, relationships, and faith.
[SPEAKER_01]: His work has opened doors for broader cultural conversation, including his upcoming TEDx talk, your pastor, can't find you a husband, maybe that'll be the title of this episode, if you let us use it.
[SPEAKER_01]: who examines institutional narratives around marriage and the live realities of today's Christian singles.
[SPEAKER_01]: A cross-platform SayCoo's work is driven by a singular aim to create space for more honest nuance conversations within the body of Christ.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you can follow SayCoo, like, Coo Brown.
[SPEAKER_01]: His newsletter is Yoke, and he has a vertical series called The Card.
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the table, SayCoo.
[SPEAKER_01]: cast to ask you.
[SPEAKER_01]: What has drawn you to this topic of singleness as a black man who is married?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just curious about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you speak to us about why this passion, why this why such conviction around this issue?
[SPEAKER_01]: So let me let me say issue but this
[SPEAKER_01]: This life situation, I don't know, is it?
[SPEAKER_01]: So you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I kind of stumbled onto it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course, I've been in ministry coming up on 25 years.
[SPEAKER_00]: A vast majority of that time, I've been in singles ministry.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I started off youth, singles ministry leadership.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's just the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: I kind of came to know initially in terms of ministry, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I've been, I often joked that I've been caring, the secret conversations and back doors that don't happen over pool pits for decades.
[SPEAKER_00]: right because when you when you work in that space you you know you kind of got to do a responsibility right like church leadership is saying you know you it's almost like adult baby sitting right so there's like keep them in line right you're getting that from the top but then on the ground level you're having real conversations on the hearts and desires of singles
[SPEAKER_00]: right so that's kind of where I came up in ministry and um and then I probably about maybe seven eight years from then I kind of shifted away from that and started getting an immediate god-end of filmmaking, photography, videography, started writing screen right and so I started getting in that and they say right what you know right so I
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I started writing kind of romance dramas, romantic comedy, still with the favoring.
[SPEAKER_00]: A little edge here is just by nature who I am, but I started doing that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And and I kind of stumbled onto to this part, though in terms of now this platform and writing in 2024, to be and color creative, which is ESA raise management company.
[SPEAKER_00]: They did a joint,
[SPEAKER_00]: kind of programed to be who's trying to get away from that hood movie image.
[SPEAKER_00]: They still trying to get away from it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But they called for creatives to submit kind of film ideas, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, we would compete in this competition, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I submitted, they got 2,000 submissions.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was selected as one of the finalists, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the 15 finalists from my idea, which was about a girl who started church hopping to find a husband.
[SPEAKER_00]: story for another day, which is actually a little thing now, it's something, but I've hence turned that to a book that I'll be kind of debut on later this year, but we had to compete in this kind of like project one way kind of competition where we had to be online and all this stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: And at the time, I wasn't even online.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was kind of real focused with life and
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, ministry stuff and my, you know, projects going on, but part of the stipulation was we had to be on line.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, I kind of stumbled like, okay, I guess I got to be back on line.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I got a line and, you know, stumbled on the threads and I found myself, you know, getting into a lot of conversations about relationships and, you know, you know, I would, my, my comments would get more likes and interaction and engagement from the person who even post it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just kind of chatting with my wife I'm like, well, shoot, well, maybe there's room for, you know, my perspective and platform on this, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, hundreds of thousands of views and posts and you know, I've gone on to kind of even write some nonfiction stuff over the past year and a half two years.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that was my stumbling, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But to answer your deep question in terms of what fuels me and what I've learned over these two years, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And being extremely transparent about my experience as a
[SPEAKER_00]: A single's ministry leader working inside seeing the gaps.
[SPEAKER_00]: The structural gaps that happened And me as a married single person that wasn't single for a long time I had to kind of come to grips with that singles singles often time reject knowledge from from Mary folks Because they feel we're disconnected right like you ain't been on these single streets, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I had to disconnect from that, but then I'll be on that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to just really kind of accept
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, some of the things that are driving some of the problems in singleness, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because, um, at which I know you're a lot of you guys' audience are women, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Women, you're a catch the brun of this, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, it's, it's no secret, you know, to, to many people, the gender imbalance in church.
[SPEAKER_00]: For us in church, we know it.
[SPEAKER_00]: We feel it.
[SPEAKER_00]: We experience it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I call it the elephant in the sanctuary, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's there, but we act like the elephant
[SPEAKER_00]: dating and marriage formation.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like I said, me, I had to kind of come to grips with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of my platform has grown with me being transparent and thinking through a lot of the patterns I'm seeing and the problems to hopefully bring change.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think in the body of Christ, we, you know, that's why I love platforms like you guys, I think.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we're almost OD don't serve in some Bible studies.
[SPEAKER_00]: We need to begin to start having some real honest discourse about what's going on, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, and that's a lot of what's driven me to kind of get in this space.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wonderful.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's a form of neighborly love, you know, to really show empathy and enter in, you know, to the shoes, right in the experience of people who are not having the same experiences, you know, I think that's a very clear expression, you know, of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so in the rest of the year, you were leading singles ministry, to be honest, I haven't even a one choice.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had a single ministry.
[SPEAKER_01]: I never tried to do it and didn't have it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's that seems to be unique, it's just my experience.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I don't know if that's good or bad because like you said, uh, it's, um, singles ministry can be great.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've, unfortunately, like, um, the ministries I've served in leadership that kind of gave me, you know, gave me a lot of rope to try different things to really support and store them beyond this point.
[SPEAKER_00]: But,
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you said, a lot of people, you know, I've reached hundreds of thousands of people.
[SPEAKER_00]: They be in my comments, DMs, conversations I have, they don't have them at their church or it's extremely limited or, you know, what, like we almost got a defined singleness, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like singles is technically anybody that's not married, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But we're, they're not a monolith.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a difference between a 22-year-old girl out of college and a 41-year-old woman that's divorced.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_00]: We almost don't even want them in the same room because we got to have different conversations.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's definitely a lot of nuance when it comes to singles ministry.
[SPEAKER_00]: But again, oftentimes singles feel neglected.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's oftentimes distributed.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you see it in even not even having a singles ministry, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, so, so, yeah, I mean, from a data standpoint, they're becoming the largest group in the church.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think, especially single women.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I think there's definitely a need to attend to the needs of our neighbor in general, but I would say even more specifically when that presence is so significant in the life of the ministry.
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, and it made me, I love it because I thought, like, you know, somebody who works in ministries behind the scenes like in churches, I have had people very strongly say,
[SPEAKER_03]: We do not want a single's ministry.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, which is interesting that I often think to myself, like, for the people who are single about circumstance, I think about choice, the people who are looking for their boo, they will be boo, okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: For that population, I often wonder, well, we're going to go meet them.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're not figuring that out.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you don't, we're not thinking wisely about cultivating spaces of community for all kinds of reasons.
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like we do have a really big gap, but I love this wisdom where you enter in, say who has a post is who has been on the,
[SPEAKER_03]: the programming side, the programming and the pastoral care side of single's ministry in church.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the insights that you have, because of that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think here insights are probably a vantage point that singles themselves may not have, that certainly Mary folks have not been a part of those ministries don't have, but being in the seat of having to be the leader and the care provider, what are some things that you learn through that work of service?
[SPEAKER_03]: that would have, would have been what you had expected in the beginning about what singles needs are, what they're going through, where there's a mission and a part of the church, where there's a mission, a part of the single's expectation, what are some of those insights that you, that you could share with us?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, so I think, first of all, I'm a biblical man, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I didn't grow up in church, so a lot of what I've learned in my faith is just kind of really getting into the scriptures and trying to understand that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because a lot of church we fear left sometimes, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's very clear that the Jewish people were reading about celebrated marriage.
[SPEAKER_00]: strongly encouraged it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it was a community effort.
[SPEAKER_00]: They were, they came from a range marriages.
[SPEAKER_00]: I often joke, you know, I'm West African, from Liberia.
[SPEAKER_00]: I grew up in a Liberian community in Atlanta, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And when I came to low of the story of Roof and Boa's, I understood Naomi.
[SPEAKER_00]: I grew up with Naomi's, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, these women have been trying to hook me up with
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm saying like, man, I'm trying to put a long game, the long game, man, I've never had a job before.
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you know, I'll be great for your daughter?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm saying like, right, but, but, but it's very clear that marriage was something that was supported by the community.
[SPEAKER_00]: And right, and one of the things you kind of get in it's like, and I've experienced it, other singles experience it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like this idea.
[SPEAKER_00]: of even if you have a single's ministry, it's like keeping them in line because it's this fear that they're hooking up, there's this fear that we don't even want to co-sign
[SPEAKER_00]: Potentially this relationship because if this goes north, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like they may leave, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like, so a lot of times do, and sometimes do, but it's like, hey, like, and that's to me is something you just kind of got to accept because, yeah, even on a married side, when we, we know when a couple gets divorced, somebody may leave, you know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_00]: So, but we're not going to say no, we're not going to say no to marry people, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right, that's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: keeping them in line that, like I said, as a leader, you kind of have to play along with.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm kind of glad that I'm out of that space now and I can talk about it sincerely, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But then secondly, the environment itself, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I mean, it's, you know, for us that are in church, we're talking to church folks, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, like, there's not a lot of men in church.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm saying like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we got to talk about the gym.
[SPEAKER_00]: We can't add this conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: right with what without talking about what's fueling it, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we know that when the men gather, we all can fit in a Honda Civic.
[SPEAKER_00]: The women, they got, they need a stadium, you know, with overflow seat and probably, you know, maybe need to tailgate in the parking lot, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we understand that, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the other reality is of the vast majority of men that are in church are already married.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of them came married, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: the institution of the church, the institution of marriage, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So that it's a real gap for us.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you look at, look at that you got a bunch of single women, what you mentioned is you know there's more single women than married women and then you have more married men than single women.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I mean you have this conundrum, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because yes, Jesus can perform miracles but even he can't turn these six men into husbands for these 80 women.
[SPEAKER_00]: come on now.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I'm saying like this I'm I'm got some but I'm not a magician.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I'm saying like I'm sitting on the king king David of Israel's throne, not David Blaine.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I'm saying I'm not doing that right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So but but we ignore that and how this is going to impact the the men and women because it's you know it we women catch it bad but even the few men
[SPEAKER_00]: that are there are going to get the pressure now because you're like it's only 17 a y'all in 80 at him.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's just it just creates this time but that we don't talk about structurally, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But we
[SPEAKER_00]: the past is getting up and we've all heard this narrative of this godly christian man loves god who prays and fast and financially stable and you know i'm saying protects and provides and is mostly secure and a women look around like
[SPEAKER_00]: Pastor like, okay, um, like, like, well, way he at though, you know, I'm saying like, like, he ain't in here.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't even know if you go to charge period.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_00]: So it creates, it creates this time bomb that I think oftentimes when you're on the inside, you don't fully see, like, and I have a good to see it slightly while I was on the inside.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, we're not, you know, like, we're not not only preparing.
[SPEAKER_00]: you know for like I mean first of all it's bad but we clearly have to plan for people being single for longer periods right because my sheer stake of numbers like there's going to be a lot of people unfortunately that are not going to get married right but but beyond that like we're like we're even if we're preparing them for the life stage of marriage what are we doing
[SPEAKER_00]: culturally to make that happen right and like we're oftentimes we're not we're fighting against it.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're making singles feel guilty for even having the desire.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I'm saying like we're doing all of these weird like I mean and I you know I think it's not intentional right like it's it's not but it's like I talk to singles and they bring the points up to me it's like like we would never treat someone who had a desire to have a
[SPEAKER_00]: like the way we treat singles when they express their desire to get married.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's we don't do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we don't spiritualize it either, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't say it must be the will of God.
[SPEAKER_00]: Listen.
[SPEAKER_00]: right like like we we're quick to say oh god must want you to be single for you like like which I think you you said at the top where or we were trying to name the title like there's a difference from a will a willfully accepting seeing this the call of the gift of seeing this the call Paul's bow of celibacy and you become in single because of your environment you know I'm saying like like that's that's not the same and we tend to collapse it all into
[SPEAKER_00]: in that Mutt God must want you to be single and he never promised you marriage and I'm like, well, God never promised me a job, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, if I'm unemployed, I gotta find work, like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not called to the gift of laziness, okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I need to get some work.
[SPEAKER_00]: I gotta family, no one would accept.
[SPEAKER_00]: or spiritualize my desire to find work, but we're quick to demonize, call it idolatry, and again, I'm here somewhat speaking as a voice on singles, right, because these are all of the greats and complaints they have structurally, and admittedly, I was once inside the system, and I had to kind of slowly come to grips with a lot of these realizations, because oftentimes, I think we, again, I don't think we notice it, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, attention of what it means when you have a systemic issue, but you want a personal intervention.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because it is incredibly personal.
[SPEAKER_03]: People are like, me, where is my person?
[SPEAKER_03]: And I feel this, but we're dealing with a systemic issue and oftentimes we're given these personal interventions.
[SPEAKER_03]: And to your point, I think, say, who about like the timeline of that,
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, that is just, that's a, that's a, that's a, potentially a really elongated timeline for people where you have a systemic problem and you're trying to meet it with at best at best a personal intervention.
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think um, yeah, that's why I think you talked about the elephant in the sanctuary.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the other elephant, you know, in the conversation oftentimes is the systemic.
[SPEAKER_01]: issue.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is, that's where I wrote about in the truth table, uh, book.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, Black women's music on life, live on life, love and liberation.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's actually the longest chapter in the book.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm picking that up today.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had no clue that I've heard.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've known about the book for, uh, but I didn't know there was a chapter in their specific.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's a long chapter in the book.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like do you hear it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Here it goes.
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the title is hit it in plain sight as single black woman's manifesto.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I do the systemic analysis of why we are, why we are, why we are where we are as a people within our community and the ways in which the US government has always been attacking.
[SPEAKER_01]: the black family from the time when the family is apart from the transatlantic slave trade into child slavery into mass incarceration and all types of madness.
[SPEAKER_01]: When I was going into college my male counterparts were going into prison.
[SPEAKER_01]: for marijuana charges and all types of stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you know, so you know, so yeah, so yeah, so yeah, so yeah, so yeah, dot or in or in prison, you know, and so that book, the the that chapter in that book does give that analysis and then also, you know, all the the personal stuff, all of that is interwoven in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, because I think that's important.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's I lift that up.
[SPEAKER_01]: only American listeners in order, they know about the books that I am.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I lifted up into this conversation because, like Christina said, of course, it's a systemic issue, but it's very personal, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what it was, but that's by the sign, by the way, trying to tear a rip apart, you know, the black family.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, I'm curious, say, who from your own perspective, and then we'll go to a commercial break after you answer this question, I'm curious about how you would, um,
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess what I'm wondering, well, actually let me ask you about this because I believe that the only way, one of the only ways that we will overcome as a people is to foster to build black love through the black family, a black man loving a black woman having black children.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're in our series of the Underground Railroad 2.0.
[SPEAKER_01]: Love was very much animated, Harriet Tubman, and all of the other actors on the Underground Railroad.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious about that on this systemic analysis, but the importance of recovering.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, black love, love between both black men and women in light of all the hate, the dissension and the things that we are seeing online.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's propaganda.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's absolute propaganda.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm curious of you can speak into them to that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know there was a whole lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, well, first off, I think it's real important a lot of the, when you start getting into the systemic, I think we almost get nervous as the church, because we're real, we can talk theology, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: We love that, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's interesting to me that there's several instances in the Bible where when the children of Israel wanted to be taken out, they started going after the men, you know, them saying, got the story of Moses and even in Jesus' time, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: This is, I mean, it rares its ugly head, specifically when it comes to dating and marriage formation, but we need men, like we like we need men who are not showing up when they're married because that creates a whole another pride like I was I was able to be a single man.
[SPEAKER_00]: as a Christian who love God, I wasn't perfect.
[SPEAKER_00]: I made my mistakes, but I was able to get my disciplines together that I still continue to this day, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like a lot of single people like you, they dream of getting married and and fasting with your spouse and having all these Bible studies and all that stuff is great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we do that, but
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I like my me time we got so to my wife.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like I need that to even show up as a better father and husband, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But to your to your question about systemically particularly with the black family like we need to get men
[SPEAKER_00]: of faith, which means they're going to have some values to back to God, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, back to God is ultimately to be husbands and fathers, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, there's no, you know, like we, I feel like we're quick to have a conference.
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, get some singers and preachers and get, I'm like, um, we need to be having a male summit conference where we, we have power points and we're talking about this, this genocide that's almost happening self self genocide, where men are choosing not to go, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And you have these amazing and incredible women of God,
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, you know, black women that that I've rocked with and served with for decades and I know this and see how they perfect the men we ain't perfect.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm saying, but you have these women that are in a serving in ministry and like no one addressing the fact that hey, there's not enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: men for them to if they desire to have marriage like and to be mothers and like they're it's we don't even have the environment to foster that right so I think this this is a it's a greater problem than we make it out to be like I'm like you know y'all don't like sociologists
[SPEAKER_00]: like our studying trends and patterns and a lot of the moves we see like we think they're just happening but no they're looking they're looking what's going what may happen in 2050 we got to control this right now right and we're not doing it as a church and like I said worse
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I often joke like that, you know, like it's a chapter one of my books that that you know, women, women get the sermon, men get the benediction, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like women are, are getting the brunt of the instructions, the, the, the, the preparation often times the blame, like y'all get blame for me in single, like y'all like, if you're, like, like, if you're single, it must be you and I'm like, you're like, it's, it's,
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, it's 80, it's 17, God's is 80 women.
[SPEAKER_00]: If all 17, God went from, we still got 60 women with no one, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And those women are my sisters, my cousins.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, mothers, they're my 10-year-old daughter.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_00]: Who?
[SPEAKER_00]: We're raising in the, you know, in the management of the Lord, we're raising up, training her up like now.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when she gets, oh, she won't depart from the word.
[SPEAKER_00]: But is she gonna have us, you know, someone to be with, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I went wide before personal because I think it's easy sometimes to feel connected when it's real personal.
[SPEAKER_00]: But we need that empathy for all of the women, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like when we're connected, and really,
[SPEAKER_00]: We believe it's like, you must just stay in Christ, like I want you, like if you desire to be married, like I want you to be married, like it's clear when you look at the Scriptures that God is intending for people to be raised up in Godly homes.
[SPEAKER_00]: right like not to you so it like so we like so the to me as a church we're not doing enough to foster you know family right like and and it's more than friends and family day right like we meet like we like that ain't that ain't enough it ain't that terrible right we can get rid of that I know you got me thinking I got I got some more questions for you
[SPEAKER_02]: Our NAAACP Image Award-nominated book, Truth Table.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So we're back at the table and y'all I have been enjoying this conversation with our brothers, say, cool, brown, and I know this is a heavy and personal topic, but we gotta walk through it if we want to get somewhere.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I want to talk a little bit about some of the things that we're seeing in the religion, social science data.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we're seeing recently a decrease in women in the church.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was just the first time like really like in American history that we're seeing women leave the church.
[SPEAKER_03]: Still, they are overwhelmingly the population in the congregation with that being said, but there is a there is a woman a woman leak, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And then there's an increase particularly for white men returning to religious institutions.
[SPEAKER_03]: The more conservative, Catholic, et cetera, they're going back to those spaces.
[SPEAKER_03]: Almost as a pipeline back, and there's an average of agents, both some religious and political implications.
[SPEAKER_03]: So what's leading them back into those spaces?
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't see the same thing for black men.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I love, so you for you to talk a little bit about what you're understanding is and what might be, what might be necessary for that trend to be reflective of, of black men's lives, for them to return to a place that they would deeply value, like the church.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, for first question, I'm noticing the trends as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: And as you mentioned, because it's often, first of all, I write daily.
[SPEAKER_00]: I kind of almost treat my Instagram like a column where I'm writing daily different things about singleness and then I write in my newsletter.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I get comments from all kinds of people.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I see this and this first got presented to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, that ain't true.
[SPEAKER_00]: More men are going to church than women.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, come on, man.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, first of all, I'm on the ground.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not, I'm not someone talking about this issue from an ivory tower.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I be in these church streets.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's ridiculous to even think that there's more men and church than women, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But what the data says when you look closely, Gen Z, there's a rise in men, more men coming.
[SPEAKER_00]: right and but when you even look closer it's it's not like men men and women are it's not some huge gap and secondly what jumped out to me is what you said I'm like wow Gen Z women are decided not to come to church like that's your raise more of a eyebrow not the men right right like what would women like for us that in church we know this whole shin dig was shut down by Tuesday of women's thought coming
[SPEAKER_00]: You know I'm saying like we already know I think Jesus framed it us was like we know y'all going to work with women You know I'm saying right so so that's already a big a big problem right but then to your other point in terms of The types of men that are returning the church Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: I I feel the tension of of redpill theology of ox ass bros Yeah, man where I'm like hey man like like
[SPEAKER_00]: like we're like we're talking about our sisters in Christ here.
[SPEAKER_00]: What is all of this?
[SPEAKER_00]: What what what are you like you ain't talking to like you you're not talking to somebody in the man's fear.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're talking to a fellow brother in Christ like like and I'm like literally I'm like talking with a brother here trying to help him who needs to almost seek therapy because he's been infiltrated in his own organization.
[SPEAKER_03]: No doubt.
[SPEAKER_03]: And he analyzed
[SPEAKER_00]: And we, and like, I mean, and this, you know, I'll just put this there and maybe you guys can explore it later, but the church is one of the few places where a toxic man may be able to hide and play in sight.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that's a show.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, and I mean, and the script, I mean, with scriptural on his lips, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's, it's very, it's very scary, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Come on.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let me say, though.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, but in terms of, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're a lot of question in getting black men to return to church.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's, that's, that's a loaded one.
[SPEAKER_00]: I, I want to see it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I, I truly do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and I can only speak to some of the reasons that I hear on why, why men, um, men of black men of faith aren't coming, which dates back.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, even to the 90s, my, my pastor, Dr. Dana Carson.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, here in Houston, he did his dissertation at Boston University on this topic on, you know, why men, why black men, um, return to church, he did focus group surveys all of that right and he found that a lot of black men don't see value in church until they have children.
[SPEAKER_00]: right so they're not coming back until they have kids this was in the nineties right i would say that it's still true today you know what i'm saying and not that men don't come as singles but it's very clear if you're in black shirt spaces that a single eligible black man is a rare commodity
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, he's a rare commodity in church, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And why they're not coming back, even, you know, I mean, again, I hear everything from the feminizing of the environment, which I can call cap on.
[SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, but that's one, that's one.
[SPEAKER_00]: I hear problems with leadership, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Not only financial accountability, but just the idea of being accountable to
[SPEAKER_00]: as a whole, like, is some of the reasons that some men cite, and then, like I said, the other thing is that they feel that they can't have a voice in church that the women's voice dominate, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So you hear all of these reasons?
[SPEAKER_00]: If you backman to a corner and explain to me why,
[SPEAKER_00]: or how can we get black men back into church?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we need to go back to the source and look at how church was in the early church because what we call church today, the business and institution of church, looked a lot different than these home gatherings and believers who were led by a plurality of leaders.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Men who didn't make vocation of the faith,
[SPEAKER_00]: right down to our originated Jesus had a job y'all.
[SPEAKER_00]: Jesus had a job.
[SPEAKER_00]: He didn't have a umma bearer ministry.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_01]: He had a he had a he had a like like like like so taxes and all.
[SPEAKER_00]: All had a job.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think if we return back as much as we can of these elements, a plurality of leadership of
[SPEAKER_00]: of these smaller communities where we learn the scriptures in a circle and we actually do life together, not Sunday.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's an act, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, and men can see that, especially brothers, brothers, because they all, that's y'all playing y'all playing y'all playing over there.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of them, you know, I kind of come up with a child of the 90s, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, a lot of us, like, we don't play with God.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to keep doing our dirt until we're ready.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, and there's there's a aspect of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's an aspect of that where and really if you think about it's actually integral right because now that I've been in church for 25 years And I came as a man who did all of that dirt before I came in I don't understand Christian brothers who try to do that dirt in church.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't understand you, bro I don't I will like and they be trying to make me understand.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't just go back out there and do it
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I'm saying because you're like, we're supposed to be witnesses, you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: And if anybody, if the greatest men on the data market should be benefit, the most integral men on the data market should be benefit, where our YAB means YAB, you're like, and we're not playing the games, but a lot of that's not happening, but I digress back to your question, what will it take to get men back?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the return to that model of smaller groups,
[SPEAKER_00]: where men can get with men and do life with men, not church, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Church can be a part of life, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, but like men want sincerity, particularly I speak from out, I can speak as a black man, a black man want
[SPEAKER_00]: real, sincere relationships.
[SPEAKER_00]: They need someone not to get dressed up with on Sunday.
[SPEAKER_00]: They need a brother to call a man about the, I'm going crazy in this, I know it's Tuesday, but can you pray with me?
[SPEAKER_00]: They need Thursday.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, man, let's go watch the game together.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I accidentally almost stumbled onto that.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, as a young man in my faith coming up with a youth ministry group where, you know, I, like I said, I came out, I was wild.
[SPEAKER_00]: I knew I could really hang a lot of my boys when I got saved.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I became entrenched in my church.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there was a group of youth boys that kind of circled around me, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, and they kind of became a world in my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm picking them up from school.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to their games.
[SPEAKER_00]: They kicked me up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can we come hang out to your house this weekend, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, and I did life with those brothers.
[SPEAKER_00]: This was in 2005, 678.
[SPEAKER_00]: That same core group of brothers to this day, we still like, they look to me, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, sometimes even more than their pastors as someone, hey, I'm going through this, man, can we talk?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's because I stumbled onto it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know, like, I just did life with them.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think, I think,
[SPEAKER_00]: If we're thinking of this mass return of brothers, you know, coming to church all Sunday, I'm not saying that can't be a part, but if we're not thinking about how we can get, how we can do life with men, like we'll see spikes, but it won't be sustainable.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we may not even see spikes with brothers, because again, brothers ain't trying to play church.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like they're not trying to play it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, Nicole and Nicole is not come to church as it's come to Christ.
[SPEAKER_03]: And to the extent that we know that how Christ feels about the church, you know, you know, we're going to be disrespecting what Christ died for.
[SPEAKER_03]: But, but ultimately, that is what we are offering to people of person and not the institution.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's good and honorable and blessed and we'll stand the the invisible church is going to stand But I think when you're describing say who is just the importance of camera camera acting Isolation and loneliness and really This kind of friendship life on life discipleship that everybody needs but I think women have have just deeper social connections
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, agreed.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's, I mean, we, we, we need those outlets, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like men, we, we often don't have spaces to really express our emotions, part of, and, and, and, and it gets, you know, I mean, the, the prison is filled with a lot of brothers who don't know how to deal with their emotions and likely live with regrets that got them in there, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But you had, they had, they had circles.
[SPEAKER_00]: to express their emotions to be real with and honest and transparent.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the whole thing could look different, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think you know, I, you know, just talking about the space and the, the fellowship and community that men need, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: We do have a like loneliness crisis that hasn't gone away.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's for both men and women, but you know, I think it's more acute.
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, um, um, for men.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm, I'm curious, you know, it's interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whenever there's a good man, you know, good Christian godly man, it's always like single friends or myself will be like, okay, so you're gonna burn the, you're gonna cut the, you're gonna burn the, you're gonna burn the, I mean, let's go on, you know, get a lot like is it, at a more y'all somewhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: And oftentimes, the reply is always
[SPEAKER_01]: any of my cousins or any of my brothers, you know, to you or to anybody.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's concerning.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god, so our government reasons guys are like, what am I doing now?
[SPEAKER_01]: So, so you know what I'm doing right in the group?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you know, both of us from there, yeah, I said they're, you know, flock together, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so the winner was going to find that no one more friends, none of them here is better single.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, our good candidates.
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, for you to introduce to one of your single friends or what our family members, whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm curious about, can you talk about that?
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think that there is, I think we're reheating on in surfacing a discipleship issue, but also I'm curious about the the company that good men keep.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, it's very magical disparity and it's weird.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm a child of the night.
[SPEAKER_00]: I grew up in the 90s and you did different times, but there was an understanding.
[SPEAKER_00]: We had it was like hook-up culture, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Your friend get a girl, like first question, like, you know, wait, wait, wait.
[SPEAKER_00]: She got friends?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and I feel like I think from a cultural perspective,
[SPEAKER_00]: like like we need to bring that this needs to permeate the entire body of Christ and I don't I really don't understand why we don't do it right like to me it's a sign of a good culture right that when you want breeding within your culture I mentioned I'll be a Liberian right like Liberian Jewish Asian like they don't wait for connection to happen they make it happen
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we see it in a Bible, but that's other cultures do that, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But this needs to go not only from maybe parents, it needs to even be on the grass roots level, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think I don't know where that disconnect is.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now for a lot of men to be honest, they're like, there there are a lot of good Christian men.
[SPEAKER_00]: you know what I'm saying like they're just not like and it may seem bad you know I'm saying like like now there are their instances where he may be being a little too critical of his friend like hey man you could hook her up like yeah like just stop overthinking it
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, like, you know enough about him, just introducing, you know, let the chips fall where they are, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, that can happen, but I think some brothers get, you know, Chris Christian men were some of the most thoughtful men, and, um, and oftentimes are thoughtfulness, borders fear, you know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_00]: I deal with a lot of brothers who like, like, you, you wouldn't believe a committee that might be 20 men right now that are waiting to hear from the Lord about you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, but they need they need to burn in bush.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_01]: What's that?
[SPEAKER_00]: What's that?
[SPEAKER_00]: faithful, they don't want to get it wrong, they need to pray in fast.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's like, don't want to get it wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: Jacob didn't even pray in fast.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was like, like, you know, she found, and she Jewish, oh, that's my uncle's oh yeah, oh, she good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's, let's make this go.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, but brothers, like, we created this culture around getting this perfect kingdom couple that I think we over-analyzed this thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just,
[SPEAKER_00]: way too much and some of that heaps into to why he just can't introduce you to someone, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, that's one side of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: The other side of it, man, there's a lot of brothers is doing some dirt.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like I say, again, I have zero tolerance for it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have zero, but there's a lot of brothers who have been able to come up in the body of Christ.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like with just with low morals, low integrity,
[SPEAKER_00]: a community you think you're going on a date but in reality you're on a mission field you know what I'm saying like I mean it's like like it's like like I mean it's like I mean it is very it is very bad out here and it's like like you know it's one of those where like you know when men get together we sometimes hide it they say you know I was watching this
[SPEAKER_00]: a woman was saying she knows several women who's been sexually abused, but no man knows a man who's sexually abused, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because we tend to hide all of that stuff, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So, like, right, and sometimes you're hearing it in the back, and I'm meant to or in disciples, young men, and like, in my context, in my context, a man is coming to me saying, hey, man, like another married man in the church told me if he was me, he would be out here going crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I'm like he like at least they had sense enough to come to me because I ain't gonna tell you nothing like that But it it blows my mind that like there's there's this And it comes it speaks to the heart of disciples because again a lot of the men that are showing up are Showing up already married.
[SPEAKER_00]: They they didn't come up into things like out in the faith.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're still in process Believe it or not.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't I don't tend to write people off as fast You know you still my brother even if though you got a sex edition like you Eric Beney whatever
[SPEAKER_00]: Nick Cannon, whatever, you still my brother, I'm not gonna throw you away, but this, this ain't a good look.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a bad witness for the body of Christ and like God needs you to be better.
[SPEAKER_00]: The women of faith needs you to be better, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like so.
[SPEAKER_00]: So hopefully, along with the answer you're a question, but I think I really think, like some of it may be God's shield and you like, man trust me, you really don't want my friend.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you really, you really don't, like you're better off single, trust me.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like,
[SPEAKER_00]: But like I said, does that other half where, you know, they may be overthinking it?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no, no, that's that's that's super helpful.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think a lot of those things they just make a lot of sense and also and again it's a numbers game.
[SPEAKER_03]: So those types of flaws, those types of issues become so much more lethal when you're dealing with a such a much smaller pool of people right and the pool sometimes, you know, we look at what's called like the sex ratio theory the the smaller amount of menu have it impacts typically the way they show up in the dating market.
[SPEAKER_03]: So if they
[SPEAKER_03]: So for women, when they are, when it's a small percentage of women in there are a lot of men and he's kind of rare, you know, they go about the club back in the 90s away, women get in for free, okay?
[SPEAKER_03]: No, because if you're going to women that are going to come, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, women would then tend to do in that theory, is that they would identify who they think is the best catch.
[SPEAKER_03]: not quantity quality, and what men, particularly men who are not have not been changed by the power of the Holy Spirit, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: They're a little more likely to say, oh, well, I don't have to say, I don't have to settle for one.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can actually wait to find the perfect one, so they're much more romantic in their thinking, and that is not as practical, um,
[SPEAKER_03]: in generative in that sense, and so when you have a smaller amount of of men, it sometimes unless they're their character, unless they have an integrity that you just talked about, they're just going to be more inclined to wait a long time, they to look for perfection, whatever that is for them, and to not, and to feel like they're constantly settling.
[SPEAKER_03]: But when we talk about that a lot, I feel like we don't want to sell, I don't want to sell.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that that what we see in the data is that that's more likely to be something that mean or actually wrestling with us while they never actually lean in and pick a person.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I think there's going to be something like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I pick you.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, I told you the burning bush.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's why we are burning bush because next week, here comes somebody else coming out.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I do, I do my own thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so I feel like say cool, like there's just what that being said.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think people can listen to this conversation, but I love what we do Maybe this is what we do and yet I will tell you this as someone who does premarital counseling and who has worked with over the last year several black couples who love the Lord
[SPEAKER_03]: Several black men in that room and who are married to black women and to my understanding and faithful.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know all intricacies about, you know, they can call it, they can call it, they can be faithful.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love them, okay?
[SPEAKER_03]: We know that it is still happening.
[SPEAKER_03]: So what some of the wisdom or encouragement that one that you would provide to our women listeners right now, this is kind of a matter of the heart for them, is really important.
[SPEAKER_03]: Other things that you're seeing that you would say, you know, we need to invest in this.
[SPEAKER_03]: We need to lean into these following things for the ministers who are listening in, as they think about being of great support to that local church.
[SPEAKER_03]: So one, what would you say to our sisters who are single by circumstance?
[SPEAKER_03]: And what would you say to the ministry leaders about how they can respond and neighborly love to the singles in their congregation?
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, we'll start with my sisters in faith.
[SPEAKER_00]: First and foremost, being encouraged, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I know it feels bleak.
[SPEAKER_00]: It seems bleak.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I interact with, you know, 50-year-olds in 20-year-olds and everywhere in between.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, the desire to find love, the desire for marriage is real.
[SPEAKER_00]: the process is you know it's it's hard you know what I'm saying like you got to kiss a few frogs they say like I may need to kiss a lot of frogs I mean I don't know you know I mean but uh but um I would say being encouraged because like you said God God can still move in and all of that right um you know now I do think it helps to to be wise
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, in your search and find out truly how couples are connecting, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like oftentimes, what happens in face faces is that a lot of Christian women are in loops, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: They're in work, grocery stores, church, work, grocery stores, church, work, grocery store, church, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because they're
[SPEAKER_00]: really internalizing that message that boy has is coming to church on Sunday.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_00]: And oftentimes like I said in being wise is that like trust God, like God can can yeah, he can bring your boy as on Sunday, but you know, you need to get out more in life, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And you might meet him at a at a alumni thing you went to.
[SPEAKER_00]: You might meet him at a charity thing you went to.
[SPEAKER_00]: You might meet him at a walk you went to like so really,
[SPEAKER_00]: forcing yourself, like, you know, the older we get to is hard to get out of our routines, but forcing yourself to be out there, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and you know, I would also encourage them to, you know, um, have your network, you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: And like, and like a lot of people say, I try, I saw my friends, they ain't got nobody.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you need to put, you need to set calendar reminders.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you're saying because it's like just because they didn't have somebody that exact moment when you said, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But now you planted that seed and maybe six months, you know, I met somebody I just introduced you know, I'm saying, so just, you know, being encouraged with that man would be my advice to my sisters, man.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like definitely, you know, don't throw your faith away, but expand your boundaries beyond just your views.
[SPEAKER_00]: right and trusting God like like a trusting God can right and really talk like really honestly I think it's it's helped with a talk to Mary couple's not to test the morning like no how did y'all meet tell me where y'all met because the answers will surprise y'all you know what I'm saying like it'll make you believe in God more too because some of the some of my God brought people out of like so I'm so that's the fun
[SPEAKER_00]: So that would be, and then no matter like, I know there's a in the body of Christ, you know, people make you feel guilty for having this desire.
[SPEAKER_00]: Make you feel like you're out of lashing out like you get.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, Satan, the Lord review queue, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I think that ideology, ideology is dangerous.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think to guilt people and blame them for their own circumstances.
[SPEAKER_00]: Get that, you know, just kidding.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Especially the systemic peace.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's actually the systemic piece.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, people can't act.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do think we all need to be, it's the might of the mayor for almost 25 years.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think there's always a place to say, Lord, search my heart.
[SPEAKER_03]: What is it that I can't see?
[SPEAKER_03]: But Black woman are not responsible for mass incarceration.
[SPEAKER_03]: But she's like, it's just things that work.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the life that I've been married 13 years.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, I didn't pass some tests.
[SPEAKER_00]: that made me worthy to be married.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, in fact, meeting her, meeting her, helped me realize I was really jacked up, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So this whole idea often times that like, you're not good enough yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you were, you would be choked, like, it's, it's like, it's just not an accomplishment.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: To globalize on that, because I do think the decision to say yes every day.
[SPEAKER_03]: to say, yes, every day to someone, that is, that actually is hard, you know, I, I, I, well, it's always when you went to your point, right, I always accomplish that way, but I do think, yeah, one day, one person said, you know, I say yes to you today, and they threw it all away.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the person who, the person who gets up and says each day, I'm going to choose you.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that is, I think that's where we could probably help our singles, my ministry standpoint, because the, the fidelity that people sometimes show in one area of life doesn't always transfer into the fidelity of relationships.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I can, I can, I can make a black man who are exceptional leaders like in law.
[SPEAKER_03]: And like the, the field of law, or they can do a
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, my, my transferable, you know, my wife talks about that to us, like, like, oftentimes, like men, we're, we're trained to be great fathers, but not great husbands.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you could, you could be a great, like, like, it's almost like, like, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But women almost feel guilty for complaining.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm saying, like, like, like, like, because he's doing this, which I, I, what, I love that, but, but, you know, but, you know, I'm saying, so, so yeah, that's, that's problematic, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But,
[SPEAKER_00]: But to my ministry leaders, part of what my platform and work like, you know, I'm praying God continues to open more doors where I can talk about this issue.
[SPEAKER_00]: We need to do some real self examination and really support our singles, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, not treat them like I have to thought, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I often joke that, you know, singles, we treat singles like the vegan option at a
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm saying like you want to mend you, but that's not what people came for.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm saying like, you know, I'm saying like that's fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we need to really think about like ministry leaders as, and hopefully like I said, I'm hoping to go to seminaries and get young leaders as they come out where they're thinking, like the majority of the people that may come to me are likely going to be single.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And even if they married, it may end up single.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you looked at these divorce rates, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So you need to have, you need to have them more from like, and programs aside, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, like, from a deep care perspective that, you know, care for, you know, like my wife often jokes like, it's not that you don't care, is that you don't care.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like playing a word, but it's like, but it's expensive being proactive, you know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, we need to begin to care for our singles.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not throw up a program, not none of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And really, and part of that care is really empathizing with where they are.
[SPEAKER_00]: What, how they're experiencing life?
[SPEAKER_00]: the unspoken grief, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I like that they may be experiencing is real like, and treated as such, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And making real space for singles in ministry, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: All of that like, and like I said, and just being ready to swallow some humble pie.
[SPEAKER_00]: because you know a lot of this ministry church leaders are overwhelmingly male, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like this keep it real, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like just are over and we got to get some humble pie.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I live in a home, I live in a home with my wife and my 10 year old daughter, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like when the toilet seat is left up and there's pee on the toilet, we know who did it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I'm saying, like, and this, when men, when men, when men, when men, when men aren't coming at church, that's not a woman's fix problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that's a issue that leadership, mostly male leadership need to address harsh, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like harshly, and we need to, we need to swallow it and come up with real systems and make some real changes.
[SPEAKER_00]: like, they're not coming, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not coming back to friends and family day, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, we need to structurally think of that, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's my prayer for ministry leaders.
[SPEAKER_00]: The ones up today and the ones that are even coming, man.
[SPEAKER_00]: We need, you know, you can't, you can't think.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of ministry leaders, we default family, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, we default family and children.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's what we think on automatic pilot right, but like you said like there's like I know I know stuff about
[SPEAKER_00]: what singles are really feeling that they've passed is don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it bothers me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, you, you, some of these people barely know me and they tell me stuff and I'm like, man, go to people in your community and talk to them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're like, don't feel comfortable.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we, yeah, we've not even created a culture for the entrepreneurial comfortable telling anybody, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So, and, and that culture is dictated from the top down.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, again, that's, that's my, that's my prayer and concern for, for ministry leaders.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's definitely worthy of significant investment in skill to be able and every ministry of the church that reflects care for people made in the image of God is going to require resourcing and skill and representation.
[SPEAKER_03]: to do the ministry, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think if I look at scripture, I would say there's an opportunity, certainly in your case, say for a married, a married man, a married woman to lead and provide support, but it's also a really great space for singles themselves.
[SPEAKER_03]: to provide their wisdom and their spiritual gifts to the table to be able to capture what's needed going forward.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I hope that particularly our sisters are encouraged, single by circumstance, but also even more than that, I hope that our leaders who are listening in are becoming more and more equipped, because nobody, most people, nobody gets into ministry to not see people.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, they, for most part, let's say, you know, scammers.
[SPEAKER_03]: But it took them, it took them, it took them to be a blessing.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, um, you know, they're tired, they're kidding for that, for that work.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I hope for those who are listening and the, the leaders who listen in, this is another, another opportunity for for all of us to be equipped to be a blessing to the singles in our congregation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for coming to the table before we go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Please talk to our listeners, our citizens at the table, brothers and stand in room section.
[SPEAKER_01]: How can they follow you, get plugged into your work, tell them all the things.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can follow me at Kubra and I'm on Instagram.
[SPEAKER_00]: Every day as I mentioned earlier, I have a newsletter, yoke, there I unpack long-term single-ness.
[SPEAKER_00]: and the impacts it has in faith spaces.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm also a filmmaker though, writer filmmaker in many regards, so I write fiction, got my first fiction book drop in later this year, called Coming Up Short about a woman who starts church hopping to find a husband.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's funny, it has a lot of heart, but and I also, I just release the vertical micro drama.
[SPEAKER_00]: Those are hot, called V-Card, about two Christian virgins who get married and can't have sex.
[SPEAKER_00]: and it's really exploring a lot of the issues of long-term single-niss that comes into marriage, and it does that in a funny and with a lot of heart as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, if you come on Instagram, you'll see all of this stuff I'm talking about, but yeah, but most importantly, just come and listen, especially ministry leaders.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, I end up talking to a lot of them on the side.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just come and treat my space.
[SPEAKER_00]: as a living room because they're you hear the real hearts of single because a lot of singles they they I think ministry leaders confuse faithful singles as not having having grief who sozi oh she great she may serve it for decades no sozi is contemplating leaving god you know me because of her experience right and I get a lot of self contemplating in some commit uh dad by suicide
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, oh, that's a whole, that's a whole, another thing, but it's serious.
[SPEAKER_00]: So absolutely, so come, like I said, come, you know, like I said, I got things to offer, you know, books and resources and stuff like that, but just come and definitely join the conversation and see what what singles are going through, man, it'll blow you, it'll blow your mind and hopefully soften your heart to the plight of singleness.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's sad.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that is so critical and I think one of the things, you know, just for your people have needs that you can't feel doesn't mean the need is insufficient.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think, you know, I think people just have to reckon with it, just because you can't fix it.
[SPEAKER_03]: That mean.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not still a need.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I do think ministry leaders, because everything can be an idol, ministry leaders have to do the work of figuring out what makes something an idol or not and how to walk with people through that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And just because you can't fix it, it doesn't become an idol, you know.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm so grateful for you today, say, who I will definitely continue to follow you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yes, yes, yes, I'll be following you.
[SPEAKER_01]: You say, who thank you so much for modeling neighborly love and Christ likeness by entering in to the interior life of people with a different social location, a completely different experience that you have some distance from now as one who's been married for 13 years.
[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you for doing that gospel work.
[SPEAKER_01]: that kingdom work and so we thank you for coming to the table and we want to thank all of y'all for coming to the table and taking a seat with us this week.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's keep the conversation going, I know y'all have a lot to say about.
[SPEAKER_01]: So show your thoughts with us about this episode on Instagram, friends, or Facebook, at truthtable, or email us your thoughts and ask truthtable at dmail.com.
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[SPEAKER_01]: True stable's audio producer is Joshua Heath, our video producer is Darrell Bradford, and true stable's executive producers and hosts, our Kimini Ulan and Christina Evanson.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll see you soon on the next true stable.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bye, y'all.