WEBVTT 00:12.042 --> 00:15.063 [SPEAKER_03]: Human trafficking is often portrayed as something dramatic. 00:15.624 --> 00:20.506 [SPEAKER_03]: Kidnappings, organized crime rings, or stories that happen somewhere far away. 00:21.226 --> 00:27.709 [SPEAKER_03]: But the reality is often much more ordinary, much closer to home, and much harder to recognize. 00:28.469 --> 00:31.291 [SPEAKER_03]: So what does human trafficking actually look like? 00:32.031 --> 00:38.420 [SPEAKER_03]: How are pornography, social media, and online platforms changing the landscape of exploitation? 00:39.241 --> 00:41.865 [SPEAKER_03]: And what role can each of us play in preventing it? 00:42.626 --> 00:48.374 [SPEAKER_03]: Today we're joined by Preston Goff, Vice President of Global Communications at the Exodus Road. 00:49.147 --> 00:54.449 [SPEAKER_03]: Together, we discuss the connection between pornography and commercial sexual exploitation. 00:55.109 --> 01:09.995 [SPEAKER_03]: How traffickers use social media to recruit and groom victims, why re-trafficking is more common than many people realize, and how compassionate conversations and survivor-centered storytelling can help create meaningful change. 01:10.915 --> 01:12.455 [SPEAKER_03]: With that, let's jump in. 01:13.236 --> 01:16.757 [SPEAKER_03]: We hope you enjoy this episode of Consider Before Consuming. 01:18.422 --> 01:24.085 [SPEAKER_01]: Before we jump into today's episode, I want to talk to those of you who have tried quitting porn and it just hasn't stuck. 01:24.506 --> 01:29.208 [SPEAKER_01]: Because here's the truth, this isn't something you're meant to do alone, and that's why relay exists. 01:29.749 --> 01:34.111 [SPEAKER_01]: Our sponsors at relay have built an app around the idea that change happens through connection. 01:34.592 --> 01:41.496 [SPEAKER_01]: Real support, real accountability, and a simple, structured system that helps you keep moving forward even when it feels impossible. 01:42.116 --> 01:46.239 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not about perfection, it's about progress, and having people in your corner who get it. 01:47.099 --> 01:51.820 [SPEAKER_01]: And as you're about to hear in today's episode, the impact of porn goes way beyond just us. 01:52.040 --> 01:55.201 [SPEAKER_01]: So choosing to quit, it matters, and it makes a difference. 01:56.021 --> 02:03.903 [SPEAKER_01]: If you're ready to try a different approach that works, head to ftnd.org slash join relay for a seven day free trial. 02:04.363 --> 02:07.504 [SPEAKER_01]: That's ftnd.org slash join relay. 02:09.044 --> 02:12.765 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Preston, if you're all set, I want to welcome you to the 02:17.251 --> 02:18.814 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm thrilled to be a part of it. 02:18.855 --> 02:19.436 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for having me. 02:20.137 --> 02:24.847 [SPEAKER_01]: To start, can you introduce yourself and share a bit about the work that you do with the Exodus Road? 02:25.851 --> 02:26.271 [SPEAKER_00]: I'd love to. 02:27.272 --> 02:27.952 [SPEAKER_00]: My name is Preston. 02:28.012 --> 02:35.195 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm the VP of Global Communications at the Exodus Road, which is a global anti-trafficking organization. 02:35.735 --> 02:45.179 [SPEAKER_00]: We really work in prevention education, in intervention itself, and actually helping people leave trafficking, and then also in aftercare work around the world. 02:46.259 --> 02:47.760 [SPEAKER_00]: And I've been here for about six years. 02:49.047 --> 02:49.387 [SPEAKER_01]: Awesome. 02:49.727 --> 02:50.848 [SPEAKER_01]: We're so grateful for your work. 02:50.928 --> 02:59.070 [SPEAKER_01]: It's so important and so needed, and in this space that we're working in, it really is an all hands-on deck approach to addressing these issues. 02:59.130 --> 02:59.971 [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you. 03:00.831 --> 03:06.753 [SPEAKER_01]: What first drew you into working in anti-human trafficking, and what has your journey looked like since then? 03:08.514 --> 03:13.218 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think the journey for me really is as a creative creative. 03:13.278 --> 03:24.749 [SPEAKER_00]: So I joined with a camera in hand, and this desire to tell stories that helped change the world, and found the issue of human trafficking along the way. 03:24.789 --> 03:30.694 [SPEAKER_00]: And it was like, I have to be a part of whatever response is taking place globally to help come about this thing. 03:31.475 --> 03:44.166 [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, I knew about this much about human trafficking when I joined the work and have since been sobered, been inspired, been challenged and changed by it. 03:44.887 --> 03:54.535 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's a true honor for me every day to work, to really inspire and educate and motivate others to find their place in this fight as well. 03:55.092 --> 03:55.833 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely. 03:56.373 --> 04:00.577 [SPEAKER_01]: A similar fight between a drug was kind of founded out of a similar origin story. 04:01.358 --> 04:15.391 [SPEAKER_01]: One of our co-founders actually had a creative agency and was a filmmaker at the time and after seeing all of the research on these issues and personal stories really also wanted to harness that power of storytelling to be able to shine a light on these issues. 04:15.491 --> 04:17.773 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's so needed, this work is so 04:20.215 --> 04:40.354 [SPEAKER_01]: It's, it's interesting how so many of us in this work never, never plans to be on the paths that we're on now and find ourselves in this work and and once you know about these things you can't really unknow and so That momentum kind of builds and grows to continue to want to speak out against these issues. 04:41.635 --> 04:42.696 [SPEAKER_00]: No doubt, no doubt. 04:43.210 --> 04:50.397 [SPEAKER_01]: For someone who's only heard the term human trafficking in headlines, how would you explain what it actually looks like in real life? 04:51.640 --> 04:52.580 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 04:52.900 --> 04:54.421 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a great question. 04:55.361 --> 05:15.407 [SPEAKER_00]: I think often, like as you mentioned, when you hear about human trafficking in recent years, I know a lot of people have come into greater awareness that human trafficking even exists and yet often the portrait that we have of it looks a lot more perhaps sensationalized than what it actually looks like on an everyday basis. 05:16.287 --> 05:22.513 [SPEAKER_00]: So one of the things that I tell people is humid trafficking is often far more mundane than you would ever imagine. 05:23.234 --> 05:27.398 [SPEAKER_00]: And it exists in every country in the world, every state here in the United States. 05:28.599 --> 05:36.847 [SPEAKER_00]: And it exists in the margins of every day life, in the spaces that we inhabit, whether that's a real life, or even online as well, which I know we can talk about. 05:37.928 --> 05:38.648 [SPEAKER_00]: So it looks like 05:39.832 --> 05:54.937 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, an individual being extorted for labor or for commercial sexual exploitation, which is a form of labor trafficking, it takes many different forms, it affects children and adults, men and women, people of all demographics. 05:56.398 --> 06:03.700 [SPEAKER_00]: In some ways, it's really so universal that it's hard to characterize it, which is kind of one definition. 06:04.574 --> 06:27.313 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it's so interesting because, as you mentioned, we tend to think of it really as what we see in movies, this very extreme heightened versions of trafficking, which does happen, but, but it's happening so much more mundanely as you mentioned, all across the globe, and it is something that many people don't even realize what some instances of trafficking are. 06:28.247 --> 06:44.703 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think the temptation is to think, oh, that's like child kidnapping, and while like kidnapping does happen globally, kidnapping as the condition that costs someone to come into a trafficking situation is very, very rare. 06:45.884 --> 06:49.047 [SPEAKER_00]: What actually exists is power dynamics being 06:49.768 --> 07:02.098 [SPEAKER_00]: being put in a play or psychological manipulation as a as a tool for coercion and building trust and then extorting and and manipulating that trust for gain. 07:02.198 --> 07:05.461 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah it's um it's it's really tricky. 07:06.062 --> 07:14.629 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah for anyone who some of those terms may be newer for can you give an example of some kind of common situations that are trafficking that fit that bill? 07:15.665 --> 07:41.344 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so a great example here in U.S. would be what we call like a Romeo-Pimp kind of dilemma, which would be, you know, you have a situation where you have a young person and this can be male or female or same gender where you have someone who is in a romantic relationship and usually often with an older individual and that person is providing some form of stability in their life. 07:42.308 --> 07:46.930 [SPEAKER_00]: But that stability it has expectations on the other end. 07:47.291 --> 07:56.816 [SPEAKER_00]: And that can often look like a young girl who is sold out for sex to help make rent or a variety of things. 07:56.916 --> 08:02.999 [SPEAKER_00]: And it becomes this habitual, exploitative commercial sex act that is by nature trafficking. 08:03.621 --> 08:03.861 [SPEAKER_01]: great. 08:04.541 --> 08:11.245 [SPEAKER_01]: Your organization has spoken about the connection between pornography and the demand for commercial sexual exploitation. 08:11.365 --> 08:13.106 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you help unpack that relationship? 08:14.546 --> 08:15.467 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely. 08:15.607 --> 08:19.389 [SPEAKER_00]: I think what we've said and what we've really seen is that 08:21.195 --> 08:27.378 [SPEAKER_00]: the consumption of and the participation in the consumption of the sexized content like pornography. 08:28.118 --> 08:34.360 [SPEAKER_00]: It really has a direct link is to demand for human trafficking around the world as well. 08:34.420 --> 08:35.801 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's both, 08:38.221 --> 08:44.083 [SPEAKER_00]: It takes many different forms, and that connection can look like different things. 08:44.803 --> 09:01.208 [SPEAKER_00]: In one sense, it can directly lead someone on a pathway where they crave these in-person experiences that the commercial sex industry, which often hides trafficking exploitation within it, can help to fulfill. 09:02.068 --> 09:12.451 [SPEAKER_00]: But also in some situations, those portrayed in pornography themselves may be victims of human trafficking exploitation for the creation of that content. 09:12.511 --> 09:14.391 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's definitely a directly linkage. 09:15.151 --> 09:16.072 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely. 09:17.032 --> 09:25.094 [SPEAKER_01]: From your perspective, what are people not seeing when they separate pornography from trafficking or the broader commercial sex industry? 09:26.902 --> 09:27.823 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely. 09:27.903 --> 09:47.581 [SPEAKER_00]: I think one of the things that people don't perhaps understand is that from the outside what can look like real full participation and even enjoyment can sometimes actually be at the side and it can be a survival instinct in a veneer that's kind of overlaid. 09:48.262 --> 10:07.879 [SPEAKER_00]: So for instance, I was actually just in Thailand a few weeks ago and in a commercial sex district there and one of the things that strikes me always is this dichotomy between what I know which is that many of the women that are there are experiencing trafficking exploitation, not all. 10:08.539 --> 10:13.543 [SPEAKER_00]: But many, and yet from the outside, it looks like everyone's just having this wonderful time. 10:13.743 --> 10:25.532 [SPEAKER_00]: And so what the same is really true of pornography, it can seem like willful and like it's just innocent entertainment per se, but actually hide a darker reality underneath. 10:26.153 --> 10:26.453 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 10:27.054 --> 10:32.838 [SPEAKER_01]: And from your perspective, what are some of the things that happen to give individuals 10:37.662 --> 10:38.003 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 10:38.363 --> 10:50.835 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, I think there are certainly like psychological manipulation tactics that can lead someone to just kind of play the game for the sake of survival. 10:50.855 --> 10:53.798 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if that's what you're asking, but like Sure. 10:54.698 --> 10:55.820 [SPEAKER_00]: I guess I don't know if you want to. 10:56.653 --> 11:16.176 [SPEAKER_01]: more like within the industry or when you were in Thailand, obviously there's there's from the outside looking in we perceive the situation to be one thing but it's actually another and some of that is because of the way these things are presented and the efforts that the porn industry or commercial sex industry goes to to sell 11:17.257 --> 11:19.197 [SPEAKER_01]: To sell these things as something that's okay. 11:19.318 --> 11:26.499 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's where people get hung up a lot of the time is because they hear all of this information like the conversations we're having now, but they say, you know it. 11:26.719 --> 11:30.120 [SPEAKER_01]: I watched it and everybody was having a good time. 11:30.220 --> 11:32.821 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm sure this wasn't an instance of that. 11:32.921 --> 11:35.461 [SPEAKER_01]: And the truth is we can't always be sure. 11:36.321 --> 11:38.862 [SPEAKER_01]: And why why is that where's that disconnect come in. 11:40.182 --> 11:41.063 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 11:41.263 --> 11:42.303 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, one, I think. 11:43.390 --> 11:57.460 [SPEAKER_00]: the industry is really good at portraying what they want us to believe, and, you know, along that same notion, it is a very successful industry with high-proth emergency, and trafficking would be the same. 11:57.680 --> 12:03.424 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, when we talk about human trafficking globally, it's like a $240 billion annual industry in 170 million of that is commercial sexual 12:10.369 --> 12:18.574 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's high stakes involved for those that perhaps are running these schemes on the trafficking side. 12:19.035 --> 12:28.361 [SPEAKER_00]: The same would be true in the pornography scene, their businesses at the end of the day that are unfortunately operating on models that can be exploited at times. 12:29.121 --> 12:29.441 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think 12:37.289 --> 12:43.394 [SPEAKER_00]: willingness to consider the darker reality is something that we don't, we just don't wanna think about. 12:43.914 --> 12:54.123 [SPEAKER_00]: And so when we are forced to consider it, we'd naturally back away from those things and say, well, maybe it happens, but it's surely this isn't it. 12:54.755 --> 13:03.138 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that's a good point, I think, when people think of trafficking or sex trafficking, it's often this idea of like that's something that happens over there. 13:03.678 --> 13:13.062 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not something that's happening in my neighborhood or in my state or my community, but this is something, as you mentioned, that's happening in every corner of the globe. 13:13.642 --> 13:20.345 [SPEAKER_01]: What patterns have you observed globally when it comes to demand for trafficking and sex trafficking? 13:25.498 --> 13:26.698 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a good question. 13:26.718 --> 13:44.224 [SPEAKER_00]: I think when you think about like sex tourism and commercial sex trafficking globally, I think there's been an increased demand that we see around the world, but also another massive trend is this like big surge to 13:45.604 --> 13:54.630 [SPEAKER_00]: online spaces as not only a tool for recruitment and enticement and all of that, but also for actually like the transactions themselves. 13:54.810 --> 14:11.602 [SPEAKER_00]: And so you know, I tell people globally, the vulnerability to human trafficking is at an all-time high for the average person, as well as the number of transactions, and obviously the amount of money that's being exchanged for those criminal acts. 14:12.433 --> 14:36.044 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think, you know, even when we talk about it happens everywhere, it happens in the US like the massive move to online exploitation of children and how that is connected to even the global sale of child sexual abuse material and how that contributes to sex trafficking overall is a massive part of the conversation too. 14:36.649 --> 14:54.313 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, in this work that we do, we're in this all day every day for years, we're very familiar with these terms, but for someone listening whose lives familiar, can you explain what commercial sex tourism is and how digital content plays a role in shaping it. 14:55.357 --> 14:55.637 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 14:56.318 --> 15:00.842 [SPEAKER_00]: So commercial sex tourism is kind of exactly what it sounds like. 15:01.342 --> 15:12.071 [SPEAKER_00]: There are regions around the world, Thailand being one hotspot for this globally, that are really, they exist for the sake of 15:13.132 --> 15:18.877 [SPEAKER_00]: crafting these experiences for foreigners who want to come and live out their sexual fantasies. 15:19.978 --> 15:26.263 [SPEAKER_00]: So in this particular region of Thailand I was in, in this city there's nearly 100,000 involved in the sex industry. 15:30.286 --> 15:35.367 [SPEAKER_00]: and certainly, again, not all our trafficking victims, but many of them are. 15:35.607 --> 15:48.670 [SPEAKER_00]: And for those that aren't, there's often still course-mit and exploitation kind of at play in the ownership model of those bars and establishments that are corresponding to it. 15:48.710 --> 15:51.531 [SPEAKER_00]: So sex tourism is a big thing. 15:51.571 --> 15:52.771 [SPEAKER_00]: The digital side of it, you know, 15:53.846 --> 15:55.427 [SPEAKER_00]: has been interesting on two fronts. 15:55.627 --> 16:05.874 [SPEAKER_00]: One, I think we've seen this mass move towards the promotion of that lifestyle and recruitment of more tourists at a large scale. 16:05.974 --> 16:17.561 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think, you know, I'm aware even of a few like pieces in media that have came out and are in production and will be coming out that highlight the role that these, 16:18.742 --> 16:25.087 [SPEAKER_00]: industries have in promotion of what they're doing, and portrayal of it as this innocent like entertainment. 16:26.508 --> 16:26.748 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 16:27.329 --> 16:27.549 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 16:28.209 --> 16:35.835 [SPEAKER_01]: And speaking of digital content, only fans is something that is growing in popularity. 16:35.995 --> 16:37.996 [SPEAKER_01]: It's been in the media quite a bit recently. 16:38.597 --> 16:39.437 [SPEAKER_01]: There's this growing 16:44.501 --> 16:49.983 [SPEAKER_01]: What have you seen in terms of how these platforms can intersect with exploitation? 16:50.063 --> 16:57.967 [SPEAKER_01]: There's often an idea that everything that's happening on these is empowering and consensual and and what have you seen with the link between that and exploitation? 16:59.341 --> 17:16.795 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so in a real sense, we've worked cases involving young women primarily who actually are forced into webcam modeling, not directly on only fans in the circumstances that we've worked on, but in only fans like platforms. 17:17.455 --> 17:21.499 [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, from the outside, it can seem like, yeah, like this is an individual. 17:22.239 --> 17:26.384 [SPEAKER_00]: running her own or his own business and running his own kind of presents. 17:26.444 --> 17:39.140 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like a Patreon, but behind it can actually be an entire network that is exploiting young women or young men for that matter at scale and operating those presents that presents. 17:39.521 --> 17:39.701 [SPEAKER_00]: And 17:41.663 --> 17:45.204 [SPEAKER_00]: with holding funds in the circumstances that I know. 17:45.604 --> 17:51.885 [SPEAKER_00]: I know of a young woman who was trafficked from her home country in Latin America to the Dominican Republic actually. 17:52.345 --> 17:58.447 [SPEAKER_00]: And it was initially supposed to be a job offer that was to work in a restaurant. 17:58.647 --> 18:03.108 [SPEAKER_00]: And it seemed like a great play to be able to create financial levity for her and her family. 18:03.928 --> 18:15.878 [SPEAKER_00]: and when she arrived, she was actually forced to perform on these webcam live streams on a similar platform and it was a harrowing experience for her obviously. 18:16.919 --> 18:19.561 [SPEAKER_00]: But from the outside looking in, you wouldn't have known. 18:20.425 --> 18:36.174 [SPEAKER_01]: right and that's something that I mean we've heard story after story after story of individuals who find themselves in a similar situation and again for those who are watching this content consuming this content there's no way to tell when you're on one side of the screen. 18:36.834 --> 18:39.917 [SPEAKER_01]: but gone on behind the scenes and exactly what has happened. 18:40.057 --> 18:49.046 [SPEAKER_01]: Even if there's a video of someone at the beginning of the video or the end of the video of video of them saying they consented to everything that happened, we know that those videos can also be coerced. 18:49.166 --> 18:56.393 [SPEAKER_01]: And so there's truly no way to know how this thing that's been cut and spliced and edited came to be. 18:57.514 --> 18:57.714 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 18:58.147 --> 19:08.136 [SPEAKER_01]: How are traffickers or perpetrators, those who are exploiting individuals utilizing social media to recruit, groom, or control individuals? 19:09.825 --> 19:14.329 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's from they are using it in all three of those ways. 19:14.409 --> 19:26.480 [SPEAKER_00]: So first off, you know, here in the US, we're talking a lot about the role that individuals traffickers are playing in using social media to have access to broader networks, 19:28.822 --> 19:36.269 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, social media affords the ability to hide behind a profile and catfish or purport to be, you know, whoever you'd like to be. 19:36.289 --> 19:49.461 [SPEAKER_00]: And we've seen it really drive things like sex torsion here in the US, but then also like the capture and the sale, the facilitation of the distribution of child sexual abuse material globally. 19:50.402 --> 19:59.378 [SPEAKER_00]: So definitely like gaining access to and even like using it as a medium for passing content is really a true thing we also see it. 20:00.689 --> 20:21.949 [SPEAKER_00]: specifically as a bit of a feeder into more private communication platforms that are encrypted, whether that's your telegrams, your WhatsApp, where there are entire groups and channels dedicated to perhaps more more hardcore or more illicit materials, especially involving children on the global front. 20:22.990 --> 20:32.495 [SPEAKER_00]: as well as a tool for facilitating in-person meet-ups or in-person experiences with adults or children. 20:32.775 --> 20:34.496 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, yeah. 20:35.297 --> 20:39.719 [SPEAKER_01]: And you mentioned sex distortion for any of our listeners who aren't familiar with what that is. 20:39.819 --> 20:41.420 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you share briefly? 20:42.634 --> 20:54.841 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, sex torsion is a crime that takes place when an individual is enticed into sending a new damage, and then that image is really held over them. 20:55.301 --> 21:03.566 [SPEAKER_00]: They're extorted for either money, perhaps additional, more images or videos, additional kind of sexual interactions. 21:04.286 --> 21:06.267 [SPEAKER_00]: And we see it as a crime that's really 21:07.428 --> 21:22.263 [SPEAKER_00]: unique in this space because whereas a lot of times in the past traffic is perhaps more of a one-to-one or one-to-seven ratio in terms of the perpetrator and the victims that they have in their orbit. 21:23.435 --> 21:41.403 [SPEAKER_00]: Criminal organizations are operating six-thersing teams that schemes at large skills around the world with this just intent to extract as much money as they can from often young victims and it's creating mental health crises, it's creating self-harm crises, all of those things. 21:42.203 --> 22:00.721 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and we're seeing especially young people, young boys being targeted by these and even being coerced into, as you mentioned, sending sexually explicit images or AI is being used to create images of them that aren't even real, but are then being used to. 22:01.622 --> 22:05.646 [SPEAKER_01]: strike fear and threaten and then extort them for money or other things. 22:05.786 --> 22:14.676 [SPEAKER_01]: And so this is certainly something that's affecting young people and is very, very important that parents are aware of, but also all of us functioning in this society to be aware of as well. 22:14.716 --> 22:15.096 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you. 22:15.897 --> 22:16.097 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 22:16.878 --> 22:22.424 [SPEAKER_01]: How does early exposure to sexualized content influence vulnerability or normalization of exploitation? 22:24.067 --> 22:31.322 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we talk with young people about this a lot as well as parents, um, I think just to name it out loud. 22:32.653 --> 22:56.334 [SPEAKER_00]: the amount of sex-wise content that is like flooding the screens that we all carry every day leads to just an immense number of even unintentional exposures and all of that it drives vulnerability and the reason why it drives vulnerability is because as you become de-sensitized to that kind of content 22:57.404 --> 23:15.714 [SPEAKER_00]: When perhaps a stranger that you've never met online that purports to be a peer your age in the neighboring town starts sending you sexualized content, your ability to see and spot that as a red flag and respond appropriately is diminished because it's normalized. 23:15.814 --> 23:20.656 [SPEAKER_00]: And so you think, and then on top of that, when you see it being shared so often, it, 23:22.558 --> 23:28.062 [SPEAKER_00]: It normalizes this culture of the creation and the dissemination of it. 23:28.162 --> 23:39.591 [SPEAKER_00]: And so you are more willing to participate that in that yourself and see that as more of a normalized less of a dangerous activity when, in fact, it actually is really dangerous. 23:39.752 --> 23:41.373 [SPEAKER_00]: And we've seen that play out time and again. 23:41.958 --> 23:52.268 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and as you mentioned, especially for young people, something they often don't realize, and parents don't realize either is that one young people self-generate that sexually specific material. 23:52.448 --> 24:00.616 [SPEAKER_01]: It is legally self-generated child sexual abuse material or child pornography, and when they distribute it to each other, so even something like that. 24:00.636 --> 24:01.237 [SPEAKER_00]: Just a second, there is this. 24:01.657 --> 24:07.103 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it seems simple and normalized, sexting is distribution of child pornography, and this is something that's happening. 24:07.524 --> 24:19.117 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, schools everywhere are dealing with these issues, and again, with not just real images, but also content made with notifying apps, or these issues are really escalated. 24:19.157 --> 24:19.518 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, 24:20.553 --> 24:30.423 [SPEAKER_00]: And even if your child isn't participating in that, like even if you as a young person are like, I don't do any of that, if it gets sent to you and you don't do anything with it, you're still in possession. 24:30.804 --> 24:31.364 [SPEAKER_00]: And... 24:32.452 --> 24:47.438 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's one of those things, we talk, we have like an entire prevention education arm or what we do with young people called influenced and when we talk to them about it, we're like, we just, we need you to understand, it will happen statistically speaking. 24:47.919 --> 24:52.000 [SPEAKER_00]: So what do you do if and when it does and how do we, how do we walk you through that? 24:52.080 --> 24:57.783 [SPEAKER_00]: Because that can be alarming, it can be scary, but you can't sit idly with that either. 24:58.270 --> 24:58.510 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 24:58.810 --> 25:04.914 [SPEAKER_01]: And if we have parents listening who say, what do we tell young people to do if and when it happens, what would your advice be? 25:06.055 --> 25:06.335 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 25:06.435 --> 25:14.700 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I would say parent, if you haven't, first of all, have a proactive conversation and we've got, you know, fight the new drug is great at this. 25:15.400 --> 25:17.962 [SPEAKER_00]: They've got tons of great resources to help you on that front. 25:18.442 --> 25:20.644 [SPEAKER_00]: The excess road has resources with them to help you on that front. 25:21.664 --> 25:36.541 [SPEAKER_00]: Because you want your child to see you as a trusted source when that happens and then you know if it's an exploitative situation that's a little bit of a different process like you need to help document that and report that if 25:38.063 --> 25:54.396 [SPEAKER_00]: It's simply like, you know, your child is part of a chain of messages that kind of came across a school needs to be deleted from the device and then perhaps like if there's a like school authorities or anyone that you can evolve there to kind of help close the loop that's that's a necessary next step as well. 25:55.075 --> 25:55.355 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 25:55.956 --> 26:08.346 [SPEAKER_01]: And to take this one step further for parents or educators or mentors, anyone who's in the lives of young people, how can they have conversations about this without creating fear or shame? 26:08.946 --> 26:15.611 [SPEAKER_01]: That's something we often hear is that's a concern for people who don't know how to address this the right way and what advice would you have for them? 26:17.693 --> 26:18.033 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 26:18.353 --> 26:22.817 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think one of the things just to say out loud is like, 26:24.818 --> 26:35.605 [SPEAKER_00]: how you approach it emotionally matters a lot and where you place the blame in the situation, also matters a lot. 26:35.825 --> 26:47.053 [SPEAKER_00]: So for instance, like we can all be disturbed and upset with this world that our kids are having to navigate and we need to recognize that even if they perhaps make a 26:50.515 --> 27:05.285 [SPEAKER_00]: They are victims of a system that was not built to protect them, and having that compassion for that child who is a child in the moment to say, oh, like, let's navigate this together, is everything. 27:06.105 --> 27:31.168 [SPEAKER_00]: Practicing you're not shocked face is a good thing to do and that's why even like sometimes I meet parents who are scared to say the word porn around their kids and like you need it like you got to remove that barrier Like you've got to you need to normalize these kinds of conversations so that your your child you know doesn't feel Concern or preemptive shame or any of these things and even bringing it to you in the first place 27:31.748 --> 27:32.008 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 27:32.529 --> 27:33.770 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm so glad you brought that up. 27:33.830 --> 27:40.615 [SPEAKER_01]: We often hear from people who are afraid that talking about pornography will make their kids curious about it. 27:40.635 --> 27:41.776 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll make them look it up. 27:42.136 --> 27:42.837 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll lead them to it. 27:42.897 --> 27:44.578 [SPEAKER_01]: And research actually shows the opposite. 27:44.618 --> 27:49.222 [SPEAKER_01]: It shows that young people often know a lot more than we give them credit for knowing. 27:49.702 --> 27:50.763 [SPEAKER_01]: and they have questions. 27:50.843 --> 28:05.118 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is the generation that will go to a device whether it's AI or Google to ask their questions and with regard to this topic, parent, you want to be the ones asking that your kids are asking these questions to rather than the internet. 28:05.178 --> 28:09.463 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I love that you said how you approach this emotionally matters a lot. 28:09.543 --> 28:10.684 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's really true. 28:10.804 --> 28:11.164 [SPEAKER_01]: I think 28:12.085 --> 28:27.258 [SPEAKER_01]: so often parents sometimes feel like they have failed if their child is exposed or stumble upon something and so that frustration with themselves can sometimes come out when you know they discover their child has seen something and it's important to remember that 28:28.327 --> 28:37.893 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, for many generations of parents, they didn't grow up with devices in their hands or the internet available in the same way that this generation of young people is. 28:37.953 --> 28:40.655 [SPEAKER_01]: And as you mentioned, the system isn't meant to protect them. 28:41.176 --> 28:46.699 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, it's meant to make them customers for life, essentially they're being taught. 28:47.240 --> 28:48.441 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm they're very, very young. 28:48.961 --> 28:54.785 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we as the adults in their lives need to do everything we can't help support them to navigate this world. 28:55.698 --> 28:56.759 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely. 28:56.859 --> 29:09.846 [SPEAKER_00]: I think one thing I tell parents to is like, you know, often, if they're listening to this podcast, I'm sure it's because maybe they've even had their own journey out of like consumption of sexualized content. 29:10.166 --> 29:21.173 [SPEAKER_00]: And I would just encourage you like, think back to your little self or like that first moment when you like perhaps came into contact with something and how like, 29:22.195 --> 29:38.413 [SPEAKER_00]: that felt and what you, who do you wish would have stepped in for you in that moment and how do you wish they would have stepped in, see yourself in your child, see yourself in the kid in your care and really let that lead your response. 29:38.898 --> 29:40.059 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's so important. 29:40.139 --> 29:49.585 [SPEAKER_01]: And for any listeners who maybe are actively in a struggle with pornography, first, please know there are resources out there that can help you overcome that struggle. 29:49.605 --> 30:01.112 [SPEAKER_01]: But second, we hear from parents who are actively fighting this who think they can't talk to their child about this because it would be hypocritical and who better actually to be able to 30:02.333 --> 30:06.136 [SPEAKER_01]: speak to a child about the impacts of pornography, then someone who's experienced them themselves. 30:06.256 --> 30:22.487 [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, there are age-appropriate ways to do that without burdening children, but I would just encourage you to know that as a parent, it is important that you're having these conversations and that there are many resources out there to help anyone on any kind of side of this issue. 30:24.453 --> 30:29.277 [SPEAKER_01]: Beyond those one-on-one conversations, how we talk about this issue more broadly, really matters too. 30:29.417 --> 30:43.968 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we started this conversation speaking a bit more about those who are exploited within sexualized content, the commercial sex industry, what does it look like to share survivor stories in a way that honors their experiences and is actually helpful? 30:46.280 --> 30:55.303 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's something that I've personally very passionate about and has been a massive learning journey for me as I stepped into this work. 30:56.423 --> 31:06.406 [SPEAKER_00]: There's obviously, there's a lot of trauma involved in the lives of those with whom we walk as they step out of human trafficking situations. 31:07.267 --> 31:10.888 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think trauma informed storytelling really, 31:12.108 --> 31:27.213 [SPEAKER_00]: looks like letting the survivor lead and creating and putting boundaries in place to give them all of the opportunity for true consent in storytelling, for true consent in their likeness being shown or not shown. 31:27.233 --> 31:37.157 [SPEAKER_00]: So like, you know, here at the Exodus Road, one of the things that we say is we will never, one we will never publish an image of a child that is unblurred. 31:37.897 --> 31:43.105 [SPEAKER_00]: From a case that we work, we will never use the real name of a survivor of human trafficking that we work with. 31:45.371 --> 32:07.921 [SPEAKER_00]: And we will always even give the survivor agency and the ability to pull stories from the internet or offline at any point in time to let them know, like, you know, we maybe the ones recording it, we may be the ones talking about this work, but it's your story and you get to decide if it's out there or not at any point in time. 32:09.181 --> 32:10.462 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's part of it, I think, 32:11.665 --> 32:19.690 [SPEAKER_00]: The other big value I have is not overly sensationalizing what is already a really dark and complex thing. 32:20.691 --> 32:24.433 [SPEAKER_00]: Unfortunately, in this work, the... 32:25.872 --> 32:31.394 [SPEAKER_00]: media attention that has been given to trafficking is often overtly sensationalized. 32:32.115 --> 32:36.176 [SPEAKER_00]: And if we say, it looks much more mundane than what you might imagine. 32:36.216 --> 32:38.177 [SPEAKER_00]: We need to give examples of what that looks like. 32:38.277 --> 32:40.918 [SPEAKER_00]: And we need to let just the truth be the story itself. 32:41.719 --> 32:49.042 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think sometimes, honestly, like, it's made storytelling so much harder because there's moments where I just want to be like, 32:50.428 --> 32:58.927 [SPEAKER_00]: I just want to be able to show their face and tell the story and give the details and prove to the donors and all of those things, but ultimately, that's not what matters. 32:59.568 --> 32:59.869 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 33:00.908 --> 33:07.570 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's so important in this work where we often say we're educating on the harms of pornography using science facts and personal accounts. 33:08.010 --> 33:12.772 [SPEAKER_01]: So much of what we do we back up with research, but the personal accounts humanize what the research says. 33:13.052 --> 33:24.835 [SPEAKER_01]: And if human trafficking were an issue that we could truly have enough tangible research to understand, we probably would have solved the problem. 33:25.015 --> 33:26.596 [SPEAKER_01]: It's an underground industry. 33:30.857 --> 33:43.881 [SPEAKER_01]: every story from every survivor is is powerful and important and take so much courage to be willing to share and we get to speak with many survivors on this podcast. 33:44.161 --> 33:55.785 [SPEAKER_01]: We're so grateful for their courage and bravery and knowing that they want to share their stories often because if they can prevent what happened to them from happening to someone else or 33:56.825 --> 33:58.346 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's what needs to be heard. 33:58.446 --> 34:04.848 [SPEAKER_01]: And the difficult thing in the world we live in is as you mentioned, this sensationalized stories are the ones that get media attention. 34:04.868 --> 34:06.689 [SPEAKER_01]: And are the ones that that people hear. 34:06.809 --> 34:15.572 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's so important to make sure people know that as you mentioned, this looks more mundane than many people want to believe. 34:15.772 --> 34:23.135 [SPEAKER_01]: And those are also the situations, many people may find themselves in a not even know they're being trafficked because they haven't heard stories of those. 34:23.695 --> 34:24.376 [SPEAKER_01]: situations. 34:24.496 --> 34:31.765 [SPEAKER_01]: And so truly understanding the breadth of these issues and the courage it takes for survivors to come forward is so important. 34:32.546 --> 34:32.747 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 34:33.468 --> 34:41.598 [SPEAKER_01]: What are some things people often misunderstand about the lived experiences of survivors beyond just that it can be more mundane than we think. 34:42.922 --> 34:56.742 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, I think in sex trafficking specifically, there is a real issue with the nature of victim blaming, so this idea that, well, 34:59.093 --> 35:02.035 [SPEAKER_00]: they made choices that led them to that path. 35:03.156 --> 35:24.889 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think, at the end of the day, like what we have to understand is the vulnerabilities and the conditions that play within someone's life, even within the commercial sex industry where there is a bit of a sliding scale of like, you know, perhaps someone did know that they were stepping into sex work and it became trafficking. 35:25.729 --> 35:30.032 [SPEAKER_00]: That still is trafficking, and that still is a crime that they're facing, and that's not okay. 35:30.492 --> 35:33.194 [SPEAKER_00]: And we need to be able to hold that line. 35:33.614 --> 35:38.617 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and can I just expand on that a little bit to give an example to what you mean. 35:38.697 --> 35:44.501 [SPEAKER_01]: So someone may have gone to a pornography shoot for instance, and said, I, 35:45.341 --> 35:46.802 [SPEAKER_01]: I am going to film pornography today. 35:46.922 --> 35:47.742 [SPEAKER_01]: That may have happened. 35:48.442 --> 36:00.648 [SPEAKER_01]: And if the person is first of all under the age of 18, or if this is a commercial sex act that is induced by forced frutter coercion, it is legally defined as sex trafficking. 36:00.768 --> 36:14.374 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that is something that even if someone thinks they know what they're getting into, if the moment they get there or at any point during that process, it is induced by forced frutter coercion, their course just sign a contract, their threatens, their drugs, all of these things. 36:15.274 --> 36:15.814 [SPEAKER_01]: exactly. 36:17.054 --> 36:29.117 [SPEAKER_01]: All of these things can constitute sex trafficking legally and we've spoken with survivors who've been in those very situations who said, I didn't even know I was being trafficked until I was able to get out of this and really understand. 36:29.257 --> 36:42.940 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's something that it's really important that in today's culture where we all get to have an opinion about everything online that we take a step back to listen to these stories without applying judgment because we can't truly know 36:46.626 --> 36:47.870 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, absolutely. 36:49.795 --> 37:01.845 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll just add to it that I think another significant misunderstanding is what the pathway of recovery often looks like for a survivor because of the way that we've seen this issue portrayed. 37:02.085 --> 37:10.532 [SPEAKER_00]: It's always this paradigmic where someone's perhaps rescued and I don't even like using that term rescued, but that's how it's portrayed in media. 37:16.057 --> 37:32.200 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you think about the reality of oftentimes like while it may have been trafficking and may have been exploitative, it may have also been enacted being committed by someone that there's a family member or like there's a complex relationship involved. 37:32.240 --> 37:35.621 [SPEAKER_00]: And so there's mixed feelings around what is that person going to face? 37:36.361 --> 37:41.382 [SPEAKER_00]: That may have been the only source of stability in that person's life, even though it was exploitative. 37:41.902 --> 37:44.363 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think what that means is 37:46.744 --> 37:54.016 [SPEAKER_00]: like without trauma-informed Africa that is really crucially uniquely applied for that individual. 37:54.757 --> 37:57.121 [SPEAKER_00]: There is a danger for recidivism, there is. 37:59.563 --> 38:00.644 [SPEAKER_00]: it's an unfair situation. 38:00.945 --> 38:16.322 [SPEAKER_00]: It's also an unfair expectation that someone walks out of that and it's just emotionally overwhelmed and overjoyed and just steps fully into that kind of persona and not as a storyteller is a really hard thing because that's what people want to hear, but that's just not the reality. 38:16.897 --> 38:33.155 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and for anyone who's unfamiliar with or hasn't heard many survivor stories of that reality, can you share a bit about what the reality of that does look like sometimes for survivors after they are quote unquote rescued or able to transition out of that set of circumstances. 38:34.525 --> 38:47.999 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, so for us at the Exodus road, in our cases, one of the things we do is we ensure that there's a social worker present with the law enforcement that is taking the action on behalf of this survivor. 38:48.559 --> 38:56.908 [SPEAKER_00]: So that social worker is there literally when police in some instances is raided in establishment and they help them just 38:57.949 --> 39:08.956 [SPEAKER_00]: have this emotional outlet and this advocate in the space from that moment moving forward and helped it answer the, you know, the necessary questions of like, where am I going to get food now? 39:09.196 --> 39:11.437 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, do I need medical care? 39:12.038 --> 39:14.159 [SPEAKER_00]: Are there, is there a bed for me to sleep in or the clothes? 39:14.239 --> 39:15.059 [SPEAKER_00]: All of those things? 39:16.100 --> 39:19.362 [SPEAKER_00]: There's definitely triage stage in that urgent moment. 39:20.142 --> 39:26.947 [SPEAKER_00]: And then ongoing support, you know, that looks like, okay, if one of the vulnerabilities, which is this is globally the number one, 39:27.967 --> 39:38.833 [SPEAKER_00]: if one of the vulnerabilities is the lack of my own personal ability to earn money to earn a livable wage, then how do we address that? 39:39.653 --> 39:47.577 [SPEAKER_00]: Because that, if you can solve that, that's one of the highest indications that you're going to reduce recidivism or the return back, the danger 39:50.907 --> 40:02.969 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and can we talk about that a little bit, I don't think it's talked about enough this idea that some survivors end up being exploited again after getting out and can you talk a little bit about that. 40:04.505 --> 40:11.748 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, if you think about it, without addressing, again, some sort of the vulnerabilities that perhaps led someone into that situation. 40:11.828 --> 40:20.731 [SPEAKER_00]: So we think about things like an unstable home life, poverty, sometimes mental health issues. 40:21.551 --> 40:31.075 [SPEAKER_00]: Without addressing those, you have the exact same conditions that could allow someone to miss the red flags or just be in such a vulnerable place that they 40:31.855 --> 40:39.618 [SPEAKER_00]: take the seemingly too good to be true job offer again, and it turns out to be exploitation all over again. 40:40.799 --> 40:41.799 [SPEAKER_00]: And it does. 40:41.839 --> 40:42.359 [SPEAKER_00]: It happens. 40:42.719 --> 40:43.420 [SPEAKER_00]: It happens a lot. 40:43.440 --> 40:54.904 [SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of the survivor stories that I hear, especially in the US, the entrance in the survivor hood isn't linear paths, sometimes it kind of circles back. 40:55.324 --> 40:55.545 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 40:57.225 --> 40:57.485 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 40:57.986 --> 41:00.326 [SPEAKER_01]: Right there are other parts of survivor stories that are often 41:03.612 --> 41:04.452 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a good question. 41:06.433 --> 41:18.918 [SPEAKER_00]: A part of the story that we like to tell often is the sliding spectrum of perhaps the survivor or the victim to perpetrator pipeline. 41:21.059 --> 41:26.902 [SPEAKER_00]: And what I mean by that is we've worked cases even in the last six months, where 41:28.704 --> 41:40.894 [SPEAKER_00]: a perpetrator, someone who is pimping out another individual is a minor themselves, but their entrance into even the criminal activity that they're doing was first as a victim. 41:41.714 --> 41:51.062 [SPEAKER_00]: And so how do you apply justice and also like holistic healing for everyone involved in that situation is really 41:55.245 --> 42:06.957 [SPEAKER_00]: we generally the audiences just want to hear that the bad guy got their justice and the survivor is now free and sometimes that's just not how it works. 42:07.417 --> 42:19.069 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah and I think that's really important to note because especially as we've mentioned earlier where this isn't only happening in the ways it looks like in the movies and kidnapping, et cetera, 42:19.689 --> 42:26.456 [SPEAKER_01]: There are many instances where individuals who are exploited have known their traffickers for a very long time. 42:27.057 --> 42:28.238 [SPEAKER_01]: It could be a family member. 42:28.378 --> 42:35.865 [SPEAKER_01]: It could be someone who, you know, maybe started exploiting them at a young age to the point where this is normal to them. 42:35.985 --> 42:40.169 [SPEAKER_01]: They're not even aware of an alternate version of reality. 42:40.249 --> 42:42.271 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think it's really really important to 42:43.272 --> 42:53.761 [SPEAKER_01]: be sure we think about all of the ways that this can look and, again, avoid shaming those who find themselves in these situations. 42:54.101 --> 43:07.172 [SPEAKER_01]: From the outside looking in, you know, so many people are quick to say, well, if someone was abusing you, why didn't you leave or if it was, you know, a romantic partner or something, exploiting someone, but it just, it truly isn't that simple or that easy for anyone. 43:08.105 --> 43:19.181 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think in general, that's a great life full of having more compassion for things that we don't understand and understanding that situations are probably more complex than they seem from the outside. 43:19.685 --> 43:31.234 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and throughout this conversation and in the work that you do, there is effort to shift the narrative from, you know, what these stories can look like to better understanding them. 43:31.775 --> 43:37.859 [SPEAKER_01]: Are there examples where you've seen the shift lead to better outcomes for survivors or better prevention efforts? 43:39.561 --> 43:41.422 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, certainly better prevention efforts. 43:41.462 --> 43:42.023 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think. 43:43.340 --> 44:05.145 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, when you think about even as we talked about earlier, like the sex distortion and kind of the online crimes facing kids here in the US, when you start to talk about it, and you start to normalize that, like, this is an experience that lots of people are having, and it's not embarrassing to have, like, 44:06.045 --> 44:07.206 [SPEAKER_00]: following for that. 44:08.727 --> 44:22.234 [SPEAKER_00]: You create this healthy pathway for more disclosure of those events and for people to start to get to help that they need and the support they need and then you see, oh well more more data, begets more resourcing for it. 44:22.434 --> 44:29.297 [SPEAKER_00]: So you start to see legislated Shen Efforts and more resourcing to actually address those because you see more law enforcement 44:34.420 --> 44:42.743 [SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, when we practice what it looks like to have healthy dialogue over these things, it rises the entire type of support. 44:43.550 --> 44:53.134 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely breaking down this stigma around these issues that are typically things that have been privately or secretly and actually exploitation thrives in privacy and secrecy. 44:53.274 --> 44:53.474 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 44:53.774 --> 44:58.016 [SPEAKER_01]: And breaking down that stigma really is the way to move forward for all of us. 44:58.897 --> 44:59.097 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 44:59.657 --> 45:05.319 [SPEAKER_01]: What things have you learned from survivors or communities that have changed the way that you see this issue? 45:07.180 --> 45:07.380 [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm. 45:08.001 --> 45:08.601 [SPEAKER_00]: There's so many. 45:13.608 --> 45:16.251 [SPEAKER_00]: For me, it is that compassion. 45:18.235 --> 45:18.615 [SPEAKER_00]: element. 45:19.356 --> 45:41.586 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm a dad myself and I myself like, you know, I teach with young kids and students often about the dangers of pornography consumption and sexized material consumption and it's pathway to some of the more nefarious dangers that I see every day in my work. 45:42.407 --> 45:42.967 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think, 45:45.706 --> 46:01.379 [SPEAKER_00]: what my work with survivors has helped me to do is one to be like, why do I, why do I, about the reality of the vulnerability that any one of us face can passion it for their circumstances and able to realize that like, 46:03.340 --> 46:11.686 [SPEAKER_00]: that compassion plays a huge part in understanding the context that even led them into the situations that brought that expedition to the first place. 46:12.526 --> 46:20.852 [SPEAKER_00]: And then to apply that to those that I see around me who are perhaps on pathways of vulnerability that look the same is a crucial thing. 46:20.892 --> 46:28.157 [SPEAKER_00]: So I can say, hey, like I know, young person here in high school in America that it feels like you're invincible. 46:28.857 --> 46:39.707 [SPEAKER_00]: but let me tell you about these stories that I know and help you understand that we can have healthy communication about this not in a like shameful way but in an empowering and uplifting way. 46:40.307 --> 46:41.188 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely. 46:41.729 --> 46:51.918 [SPEAKER_01]: And for anyone who wants to help with anti-trafficking efforts but is a little bit unfamiliar with this space, what could it look like for them to actually become part of the solution? 46:53.066 --> 47:07.165 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the first and most crucial step is to educate yourself and I would challenge you to step out of like commercial media and into. 47:08.246 --> 47:17.594 [SPEAKER_00]: direct relationship with like a trusted nonprofit or leader in your local community because it's really helpful to know what the issue looks like in a hyperlocal setting. 47:17.994 --> 47:25.301 [SPEAKER_00]: That's where you can have the most impact and then escalating from there, you know, what's being done at the state level, what's being done nationally internationally. 47:26.662 --> 47:32.166 [SPEAKER_00]: And then also like figure out what puts your heart because that's what's going to keep you engaged. 47:32.247 --> 47:34.929 [SPEAKER_00]: So find that space and then lean in further. 47:34.989 --> 47:35.229 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe 47:36.390 --> 47:58.542 [SPEAKER_00]: that is you want to support efforts that leads to people being removed or maybe it's you really want to engage with the aftercare side of it and what does it look like or maybe it's prevention education like the the issue is vast and your ability to participate is only limited by your creativity. 47:59.303 --> 47:59.623 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 48:00.264 --> 48:01.265 [SPEAKER_01]: That's beautifully put. 48:02.827 --> 48:05.530 [SPEAKER_01]: This issue can seem really really daunting. 48:05.710 --> 48:06.992 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a global issue. 48:07.152 --> 48:08.654 [SPEAKER_01]: Many people are being exploited. 48:09.234 --> 48:13.740 [SPEAKER_01]: What hope do you have to share as you continue to do this work? 48:15.399 --> 48:24.350 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and well, I mean, I think I have seen the benefit of increased public discourse about this issue. 48:25.912 --> 48:32.259 [SPEAKER_00]: Like we said earlier, when we talk about it and we normalized talking about it and we normalized talking about the truth of it. 48:33.140 --> 48:39.206 [SPEAKER_00]: more resourcing becomes available, more action is taken, more survivors are supported. 48:39.466 --> 48:46.773 [SPEAKER_00]: The entire culture becomes less like stigmatized with that topic and will maintain engagement and create healthy space for it. 48:47.253 --> 48:48.895 [SPEAKER_00]: So that gives me a lot of hope and encouragement. 48:48.935 --> 48:50.537 [SPEAKER_00]: It's unique time to be doing this work. 48:51.037 --> 48:52.398 [SPEAKER_00]: I think two, I see things like 48:53.239 --> 49:13.824 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, the double sided sword of technology, a technology as a facilitator of the abuse, but also technology as like a massive tool for policing, the crime and resourcing vulnerable communities to prevent exploitation in the first place and all of those things, that gives me a lot of hope too. 49:14.428 --> 49:19.515 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, um, we're as a storyteller in the work that you've done. 49:19.996 --> 49:24.222 [SPEAKER_01]: Are there any stories that really particularly stick with you that you'd like to share? 49:26.005 --> 49:26.225 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 49:28.097 --> 49:32.279 [SPEAKER_00]: I think as a storyteller, there's always moments that you'll carry with you. 49:32.299 --> 49:40.102 [SPEAKER_00]: And for me, during this work, there have definitely been kind of milestone moments with stories or with survivors specifically. 49:40.842 --> 49:45.985 [SPEAKER_00]: One is a survivor named Valentina, who lives in Latin America. 49:46.265 --> 49:52.748 [SPEAKER_00]: She's actually the one that I mentioned earlier, she was, you know, trafficked from her home country to the Dominican Republic. 49:54.069 --> 49:58.045 [SPEAKER_00]: and her story sticks with me not just because of 50:00.513 --> 50:14.536 [SPEAKER_00]: where she's at now, which now she's a mother with her own young son, she's an advocate, she's back home, she's fiercely independent, she's gone through education, opening her own business all alongside our team, which has been so fun to watch. 50:15.376 --> 50:21.737 [SPEAKER_00]: But also because her story is this perfect glimpse of what power survivors actually have. 50:22.277 --> 50:23.858 [SPEAKER_00]: So when she returned, 50:25.718 --> 50:33.364 [SPEAKER_00]: She carried with her this desire to like completely dismantle the system of exploitation that had ensnared her. 50:34.505 --> 50:45.273 [SPEAKER_00]: And because of her testimony, 29 other women were freed from this trafficking operation, and all these arrest took place, it was a joint operation with Interpol, it was a big deal. 50:45.594 --> 50:53.079 [SPEAKER_00]: And you just, I just love that story arc that like, here is Valentina who, with a little bit of help. 50:54.280 --> 51:00.542 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, is able to completely turn an entire traffic operation on its head, and that's that will always stick with me. 51:01.062 --> 51:01.922 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, that's amazing. 51:01.942 --> 51:03.002 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for sharing that. 51:03.682 --> 51:12.845 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I also wanted to ask you with the way that trafficking has been in the news recently with regard to obscene files or bottling agencies. 51:12.925 --> 51:18.446 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just wondering if you can share a little bit about your thoughts or your response from your organization regarding this media. 51:19.877 --> 51:20.838 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely. 51:20.918 --> 51:25.984 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it is one of the things that has driven a lot of attention around the issue. 51:26.164 --> 51:38.019 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's because, you know, from the outside looking in for the general public rightly so, it's one of those moments where it's like, I can't believe we exist in a world where this is taking place. 51:38.159 --> 51:38.579 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think, 51:39.440 --> 51:57.952 [SPEAKER_00]: the temptation and the if we if we aren't careful is to see it really as this like politicized moment and I think one of the things that I want to clearly say is like this is it's it's really not a political moment it is a crime that kind of spans um 51:58.873 --> 52:13.174 [SPEAKER_00]: spans the aisle and is something that all of us should be concerned about and should want to see like, you know, just this involved in, in, in that entire process, I think the other thing that it's done is it's really opened eyes to like the different. 52:14.015 --> 52:19.317 [SPEAKER_00]: mechanisms that can be used and employed to and snare people. 52:19.337 --> 52:27.659 [SPEAKER_00]: So for instance, like there's a lot of recent dialogue about the role of modeling agencies in the Epstein files and the reference to modeling agencies there. 52:28.639 --> 52:30.220 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's it's 52:31.385 --> 52:38.568 [SPEAKER_00]: Those moments are helpful for the general public to, those should be moments where you lean in and you ask, is this synone phenomena? 52:38.848 --> 52:47.552 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, can non-profits or organizations trusted entities that work and have worked alongside human trafficking for years? 52:47.992 --> 52:49.913 [SPEAKER_00]: Speak to this, and so for us even like, 52:50.693 --> 53:13.748 [SPEAKER_00]: we've said, and we've seen in so many cases, the role of modeling agencies, I don't know specifically any details about modeling agencies in the Epstein case, but like overall as a mechanism, we've seen modeling as like one of the kind of core job offers given to young women and used as this mechanism to and stare them into what becomes trafficking, and that's really is 53:18.071 --> 53:19.432 [SPEAKER_00]: situation to make sense of. 53:20.092 --> 53:26.937 [SPEAKER_00]: The other thing that I would say is that general feeling of I can't believe this happens. 53:26.997 --> 53:32.161 [SPEAKER_00]: This story is a microcosm of human, human sex trafficking looks like locally. 53:32.961 --> 53:36.464 [SPEAKER_00]: And I want to encourage people to understand like, 53:37.442 --> 53:40.064 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I can't believe we live in a world that looks like that too. 53:40.244 --> 54:05.260 [SPEAKER_00]: I also can't believe in a world that we live in a world where, like I mentioned, I was in Thailand and there are entire sex tours and districts that are supported and sustained by American and British and Australian men primarily who look like my cousin and speak my language and what do we do about that? 54:07.988 --> 54:08.788 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely. 54:08.808 --> 54:29.077 [SPEAKER_01]: That's variable said this is a moment where we have more access to information than ever before about what's happening globally and what's happening in our own backyard and it's something that I think again can feel so daunting and so alarming and so sensationalized event that it's easy for us to want to just say. 54:29.537 --> 54:43.310 [SPEAKER_01]: not my monkeys, not my circus and look away, but this is something that is affecting so many people and it requires all of us to demand better and to change our culture and to change the narrative around these things. 54:44.031 --> 54:48.315 [SPEAKER_01]: So that individuals aren't being exploited and that is a fight that will take 54:51.157 --> 54:53.979 [SPEAKER_01]: push forward in this work alongside you. 54:54.520 --> 54:56.101 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for joining me today. 54:56.141 --> 54:59.183 [SPEAKER_01]: It was such a gift to be able to have this conversation with you. 54:59.683 --> 55:04.887 [SPEAKER_01]: For any of our listeners interested in learning more about your work and your resources, do you want to direct them? 55:05.667 --> 55:06.888 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, of course. 55:07.228 --> 55:14.613 [SPEAKER_00]: So we're the Exodus Road, so the Exodus Road.com and at the Exodus Road on all your major social platforms. 55:15.474 --> 55:15.634 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 55:16.194 --> 55:16.574 [SPEAKER_01]: Amazing. 55:16.594 --> 55:17.275 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much. 55:20.629 --> 55:23.311 [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for joining us on this episode of Consider Before Consuming. 55:23.911 --> 55:26.834 [SPEAKER_02]: Consider Before Consuming is brought to you by Fight The New Drug. 55:27.354 --> 55:44.306 [SPEAKER_02]: Fight The New Drug is a non-religious and a non-legislative organization that exists to provide individuals the opportunity to make an informed decision regarding pornography by raising awareness on its harmful effects using only science, facts, and personal accounts. 55:44.847 --> 55:47.749 [SPEAKER_02]: Check out the episode notes for resources mentioned in this episode. 55:48.249 --> 55:51.774 [SPEAKER_02]: If you find this podcast helpful, consider subscribing and leaving a review. 55:52.215 --> 55:53.316 [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks again for listening. 55:53.857 --> 56:01.067 [SPEAKER_02]: We invite you to increase your self-awareness, look both ways, check your blind spots, and consider before consuming.