WEBVTT 00:00.571 --> 00:09.617 [SPEAKER_00]: M-S-S-W-M-D-A-S-S-W-M-D-A-S-S-W-M-D-A-S-S-W-M-D-A-S-S-W-M-D-A-S-S-W-M-D-A-S-S-W-M-D-A-S-S-W-M-D-S-W-M-D-S-W-M-D-S-W-M-D-S-W-M-D-S-W-M-D-S-W-M-D-S-W-M-D-S-W-M-D-S-W-M-D-S-W-M-D-S-W-M-D-S-W-M-D-S-W-M-D-S-W-M-D-S-W-M-D-S-W-M-S 00:23.018 --> 00:28.041 [SPEAKER_03]: Karen Greenberg is off this week lucky her off somewhere he got a morning enjoying yourself. 00:28.381 --> 00:46.330 [SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, we have a fabulous new guest today, Boyan Pen Chesky, who is the Wall Street Journal's Chief of European courseman who has written this absolutely riveting book called the Nord Stream Conspiracy, which is about of course, the blowing up of that pipeline, but meanwhile, 00:47.399 --> 00:50.124 [SPEAKER_03]: current developments in our part of the world. 00:50.725 --> 01:00.442 [SPEAKER_03]: Jay Clayton has been confirmed by the Senate to be the next director of National Intelligence but the current acting holder of their job, Bill Pulsey. 01:01.501 --> 01:03.764 [SPEAKER_03]: is making noises about not wanting to leave. 01:04.425 --> 01:05.267 [SPEAKER_03]: He's a squatter. 01:05.747 --> 01:06.649 [SPEAKER_03]: He's a squatter. 01:06.749 --> 01:08.191 [SPEAKER_03]: He doesn't want to leave. 01:09.392 --> 01:18.345 [SPEAKER_02]: Clayton is going to have to call in the cops to evict him from the Liberty Crossing the ODI headquarters. 01:18.405 --> 01:45.411 [SPEAKER_03]: he wants to keep that bus all going he he and now it's just before the vote in the senate that he had made a fifth round of cuts so that's uh... over two hundred people he's because i think maybe lots more than two hundred people that he sent packing since he arrived in june uh... out at the liberty crossing which is the headquarters of the uh... net office of national intelligence out in the Virginia 01:45.991 --> 01:54.818 [SPEAKER_03]: suburb, so more chaos, it seems to me that the benefit to all this chaos at the O.D. 01:54.858 --> 02:06.468 [SPEAKER_03]: and I, of course, is John Radcliffe over at CIA, with a couple of, especially with Bill Bolfino's, who's just there to carry out. 02:07.628 --> 02:10.550 [SPEAKER_03]: a continued Trump's retribution campaign, it seems. 02:10.610 --> 02:23.978 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, one of, if Radcliffe is sort of de facto becoming the DCI as it used to be called, which, you know, the CIA director, until the creation of ODNI was dual-hatted. 02:24.018 --> 02:35.325 [SPEAKER_02]: He was director of the agency, the CIA, but also director of all intelligence agencies that was broken up, you know, and the aftermath of 9-11, but it looks like, 02:36.346 --> 02:43.556 [SPEAKER_02]: Radcliffe is essentially assuming the role because of all the chaos at ODNI. 02:43.816 --> 02:52.327 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the big question for Clayton and Pulti if he's still there is among other things, 02:53.649 --> 03:10.174 [SPEAKER_02]: given Trump's obsession about election security and the inadequacy or the potential compromise of elections, not potential in Trump's mind, equally as it's happened in the fair against him. 03:10.194 --> 03:19.137 [SPEAKER_02]: What steps, if any, are they going to take to sort of assist any interference by the Trump administration 03:23.929 --> 03:37.852 [SPEAKER_03]: As everybody knows, a number of Democrats were very supportive of the Clayton nomination because one, he wasn't built-in to, they wanted to pass this section 702 surveillance law. 03:38.473 --> 03:49.015 [SPEAKER_03]: And so they were willing to accept the guy who seemed on the level at least as a former SEC commissioner and US attorney for this powerful Southern District of New York. 03:53.776 --> 03:55.397 [SPEAKER_03]: of the Directive National Tellings. 03:56.037 --> 03:57.938 [SPEAKER_03]: It was like, okay, we'll take this guy. 03:57.978 --> 04:09.462 [SPEAKER_03]: But then, he wobbles on this election-balancing issue and seemed to be hinting that he could go down the same path as Tulsi Gabbard and start... 04:10.362 --> 04:10.622 [SPEAKER_03]: What? 04:10.903 --> 04:13.425 [SPEAKER_03]: Looking into ballot counting? 04:14.586 --> 04:15.306 [SPEAKER_02]: Not good. 04:15.606 --> 04:16.807 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we don't know. 04:16.887 --> 04:25.574 [SPEAKER_02]: And of course, there's still that FBI investigation down in Fulton County, which Gabbard flew down to be a part of. 04:26.855 --> 04:47.767 [SPEAKER_02]: observe, and where that's going, if anywhere, is hard to see, but, but, you know, at the same time Clayton is getting confirmed, Todd Blanch, the acting attorney general doesn't seem to be making it through the confirmation gauntlet in the Senate. 04:48.747 --> 05:00.734 [SPEAKER_02]: The Senate Judiciary Committee meeting to confirm him has been postponed, but apparently because two Republican senators have ejected that he cannot give in writing a firm commitment 05:07.182 --> 05:24.070 [SPEAKER_02]: originally floated to pay off hundreds of millions of dollars to Trump's allies who have been convicted of crimes or investigated for crimes was going to be stopped altogether and that the immunity, the perpetual immunity for 05:24.590 --> 05:28.773 [SPEAKER_02]: Trump's family from audits from the IRS would not proceed. 05:28.873 --> 05:36.599 [SPEAKER_02]: So as a result, you know, it doesn't seem that Blanche is going to get, um, going to get confirmed anytime soon. 05:36.860 --> 05:39.622 [SPEAKER_03]: He, no, he's caught between rock and a hard place. 05:39.702 --> 05:41.123 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, the Senate's not confirmed. 05:41.143 --> 05:47.428 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to confirm unless he commits in writing to not going forward with this, uh, 05:47.868 --> 05:58.053 [SPEAKER_03]: program, you know, this defense, whatever they call it, to compensate, January 6th, and it's and to ensure that Trump won't be audited for a sexist. 05:58.433 --> 06:04.856 [SPEAKER_03]: And if he does, if he does, I mean, Trump will maybe withdraw the nomination. 06:04.876 --> 06:07.257 [SPEAKER_03]: In fact, he's made some noises in that direction. 06:07.477 --> 06:32.308 [SPEAKER_02]: But look, you know, as outrageous as those two items are, it seems to me that there are many other reasons to question blanches, qualifications to stay on as attorney general, and you know, exhibit A in my book is all the ridiculous prosecutions that have been brought under his leadership that seemed to fall apart and court. 06:32.748 --> 06:36.111 [SPEAKER_02]: whenever a microscope is put on on them. 06:36.551 --> 06:55.227 [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, the Komi case that what we learned this week about the lengths that they went to try to convict the former or to try to indict the former FBI director for that silly 8647 C-shell post he put on in the D-shell conspiracy. 06:55.408 --> 06:57.269 [SPEAKER_02]: C-shell conspiracy and the idea. 06:57.329 --> 06:57.569 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, 06:58.330 --> 07:04.752 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we've said this so many times that like, you know, the Trump era is just made for farce. 07:05.252 --> 07:09.013 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, why didn't we let this week be funny if it weren't so serious? 07:09.053 --> 07:18.756 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Sammy the Bull Gravano was one of the witnesses they went to to try to confirm that get testimony that 86 meant to kill. 07:18.776 --> 07:23.317 [SPEAKER_02]: Now Sammy the Bull Gravano was a hitman. 07:24.137 --> 07:39.786 [SPEAKER_02]: for the mob, I think what 19 murderers he committed, you know, convicted that turned states evidence, but the idea, and of course, Sammy the book, Ivano said, well, yeah, it could be the act, but, you know, I never heard it, it never came up with any. 07:41.967 --> 07:44.029 [SPEAKER_03]: 86 is a restaurant tour. 07:44.129 --> 07:46.952 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, I look, we'll see out the O.J. 07:47.032 --> 08:02.405 [SPEAKER_02]: responds to what the Komi lawyers put on the public record based on the evidence they had gotten for, you know, for this case, but I mean, man, it's, it's just hard to imagine anything more laughable. 08:02.685 --> 08:11.552 [SPEAKER_03]: something is not laughable is you were talking with me about this morning was this new secret court. 08:11.852 --> 08:12.953 [SPEAKER_03]: What's going on with that Mike? 08:13.193 --> 08:18.897 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah well look there there was in the 90s under Bill Clinton. 08:19.298 --> 08:24.782 [SPEAKER_02]: There was created by statute that the Justice Department created this secret terrorist 08:31.827 --> 08:42.146 [SPEAKER_02]: some immigrant in the United States or, you know, whether undocumented or documented, I believe, with a terrorist crime, all. 08:43.155 --> 08:54.547 [SPEAKER_02]: under seal, all in secret, no opportunity for the public to know what they were doing to see the evidence, to challenge the evidence, it would all be done. 08:54.688 --> 08:59.653 [SPEAKER_02]: And this court has, for good reason, never been you since the 90s. 08:59.693 --> 09:02.075 [SPEAKER_02]: I think it was created in like 96 or something. 09:02.836 --> 09:05.757 [SPEAKER_03]: And now it's kind of a Soviet smack to it. 09:05.937 --> 09:06.418 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 09:06.578 --> 09:06.878 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 09:06.958 --> 09:07.218 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 09:07.278 --> 09:16.982 [SPEAKER_02]: Star Chamber, I think, is the phrase that one would use for a court of this proceed with these characteristics. 09:17.382 --> 09:21.304 [SPEAKER_02]: And the Trump administration has revived it and says they're going to use this court. 09:22.024 --> 09:27.467 [SPEAKER_02]: We'll see how far that goes, but man, the civil liberties questions around 09:28.087 --> 09:42.645 [SPEAKER_02]: a secret court charging people in secret with terrorism with no opportunity for the public to examine what is being done or even know about what's being done seems pretty unsettling to say the least. 09:43.520 --> 09:44.101 [SPEAKER_03]: at the least. 09:44.181 --> 09:57.231 [SPEAKER_03]: And parallel to that is their effort to define Antifa as an international terrorist organization, which is so way off basis, not an organization, much less a terrorist organization. 09:57.851 --> 10:03.996 [SPEAKER_03]: And they could get swept, you know, it's essentially, well, it stands for anti-fascists. 10:04.056 --> 10:08.459 [SPEAKER_03]: And that is simply amongst really these days, to being anti-Trump. 10:11.221 --> 10:26.062 [SPEAKER_03]: Who knows whether they will make a long leave in trying to arrest and charge and try simple critics of Trump and a court and maybe one of these secret courts. 10:27.023 --> 10:49.627 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, remember we did that show with the Pennsylvania Congresswoman who was asking for details who are the Antifa targets who you are investigating here, who are the people who could fall within the purview of the Antifa prosecutions and she didn't get any answers. 10:50.107 --> 10:50.887 [SPEAKER_02]: Not sure we ever 10:55.749 --> 11:05.256 [SPEAKER_02]: of the Justice Department, which he will continue to be if he's not confirmed because he can stay as acting U.S. attorney at least well into next year. 11:05.316 --> 11:08.379 [SPEAKER_03]: Boy, when am I speaking of secret conspiracy? 11:08.959 --> 11:09.340 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. 11:10.160 --> 11:12.342 [SPEAKER_02]: You got a good one to talk about today. 11:12.382 --> 11:35.894 [SPEAKER_03]: Volion Pensesky has written a great book, The Nord Stream Conspiracy, about pipeline blowup and which he details with unassailable reporting how this group of Ukrainians intelligence officers and other kind of rebels and roads put together this operation to blow up the Russian pipeline in the Nord Sea. 11:36.534 --> 11:37.876 [SPEAKER_03]: or in the Baltic I should say. 11:38.877 --> 11:52.912 [SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, for those who don't know, Boy-On is the Wall Street Journal's chief European political correspondent of European and global affairs, highly-jectorated report he produces major investigations. 11:53.733 --> 12:01.978 [SPEAKER_03]: Agenda setting scoops analysis of politics, diplomacy deeply reported features about extraordinary people in events. 12:02.698 --> 12:08.822 [SPEAKER_03]: Its recent writing has focused on the Russian aggression and Ukraine, or it's long been in Europe. 12:10.302 --> 12:35.211 [SPEAKER_03]: the Kremlin's clandestine operations is another thing he's covered in escalating shadow war of espionage and sabotage between Russia and the rest you can look him up online I don't we don't have another hour to go into all the awards that been bestowed on boyon but he's he's just terrific and we expect to be a very lively discussion so without further delay a spring boyon aboard 12:38.312 --> 12:39.573 [SPEAKER_03]: Boy, I'm Panjewski. 12:39.613 --> 12:40.873 [SPEAKER_03]: Welcome to Spy Talks. 12:40.913 --> 12:42.854 [SPEAKER_03]: So grand have you here today. 12:42.874 --> 13:06.205 [SPEAKER_03]: A reviewer for the New York Times called your book, The Nord Stream Conspiracy, a spectacular feat of investigative journalism, built on your intimate access to the senior Ukrainian and talented chiefs who say they hatched the idea and to the German police officials who eventually tracked them down. 13:08.146 --> 13:18.879 [SPEAKER_03]: tell us all about this group of Ukrainian chiefs who you dubbed the start up in a conversation with them and they'd like that idea. 13:19.180 --> 13:22.363 [SPEAKER_03]: They weren't in a unit or an organization or more like a start up. 13:22.624 --> 13:23.525 [SPEAKER_03]: Tell us about them. 13:24.686 --> 13:27.089 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well first of all, thank you very much for having me on. 13:28.106 --> 13:36.711 [SPEAKER_01]: So the people I call the start up are not that unusual within the system of military and intelligence agencies of Ukraine. 13:38.352 --> 13:42.955 [SPEAKER_01]: They are veterans of intelligence and counterintelligence work. 13:43.135 --> 13:47.657 [SPEAKER_01]: They've, you know, some of them have been around for 25 years in that field. 13:49.318 --> 14:00.532 [SPEAKER_01]: And others are soldiers, officers, military officers who'd been fighting against Russia since 2014 when Vladimir Putin first invaded and annexed the Crimean Peninsula. 14:01.357 --> 14:21.432 [SPEAKER_01]: So there are a group of people extremely experienced in their respective fields, and as soon as the full scale invasion was launched on their country in February 2022, they all joined the army, the armed forces because that was the sort of the best way to. 14:22.393 --> 14:27.416 [SPEAKER_01]: to utilize their experience and their skill sets and defend the country. 14:27.476 --> 14:33.580 [SPEAKER_01]: In that particular case, they were defending key if they were fighting in the Battle of Kiev for a month, the capital. 14:35.321 --> 14:40.584 [SPEAKER_01]: So they were integrated in this elite unit of the Ukrainian special forces. 14:41.365 --> 14:44.207 [SPEAKER_01]: And without that unit, they kind of carved up their feet, 14:45.167 --> 15:00.358 [SPEAKER_01]: and that's why I called him to start up because they've got a history of samurai rogues really well you know it's it sounds to you that they are rogues but you know if you told him you're creating insider they wouldn't be surprised because 15:01.359 --> 15:03.901 [SPEAKER_01]: In Ukraine, the system is quite fragmented. 15:04.001 --> 15:14.089 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, these are two adversaries, Russia and Ukraine, then come from the same, from the Soviet Union, they both derive from the Soviet Union, they both have their different obviously traditions before that. 15:14.950 --> 15:25.078 [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, Russia is an autocracy that is vertically run, very, very rigidly, vertically run, from an autocrat, the power stems downwards. 15:25.798 --> 15:28.481 [SPEAKER_01]: In Ukraine, things are a little bit more fractal than that. 15:29.281 --> 15:45.579 [SPEAKER_01]: Essentially within the intelligence community, which is vast, you have groups of people and officials at a very senior level who are being sponsored or patronized by oligarchs, by business interests, by politicians, by political parties, 15:46.420 --> 15:51.587 [SPEAKER_01]: So no matter who's in power or what the elections may bring, these people are unbe need the surface. 15:51.707 --> 15:53.149 [SPEAKER_01]: It's always the same folks, right? 15:53.810 --> 15:55.813 [SPEAKER_01]: In that kind of security establishment. 15:56.374 --> 16:00.880 [SPEAKER_01]: And they form networks, you know, sometimes ad hoc, sometimes more permanently. 16:01.621 --> 16:14.968 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's not very unusual to have a group of people who are operating under the command, under the central command of the military, and who are obviously answering to the political masters, but only to a certain point. 16:14.988 --> 16:23.333 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there are moments when they do their own thing, and perhaps they don't report everything they do, but they can always fall back on the resources of the state. 16:23.393 --> 16:27.255 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a very difficult thing to explain to an American or a British person or a 16:30.960 --> 16:35.922 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you make a case that they're really more deep sea, but I want to clear out some underbrush right away. 16:38.123 --> 16:41.104 [SPEAKER_03]: The CIA was blamed for carrying out this operation. 16:41.504 --> 16:43.625 [SPEAKER_03]: The Russians were blamed for carrying out. 16:43.885 --> 16:45.705 [SPEAKER_03]: They were cast the character of Blamer Hall. 16:45.725 --> 16:47.566 [SPEAKER_03]: You make an airtight case. 16:48.066 --> 16:52.888 [SPEAKER_03]: And the Germans are prosecuting a case that it was this group of Ukrainians, right? 16:53.288 --> 16:54.889 [SPEAKER_03]: No question whatsoever. 16:55.629 --> 16:56.149 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right. 16:56.289 --> 16:57.229 [SPEAKER_01]: That's exactly right. 16:57.289 --> 16:58.150 [SPEAKER_01]: It's been three years. 16:59.189 --> 17:22.635 [SPEAKER_01]: Investigating the case, my investigation largely kind of is corroborated by the findings of the German investigation, the Germans have found evidence, they say that that kind of implicates people connected to this group, they have found traces of explosives, they have found DNA, they have found fingerprints, etc. 17:23.895 --> 17:31.677 [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I looked into all the theories, I've spoken to the top leadership of the CIA at the time that was in charge at the time. 17:31.717 --> 17:41.060 [SPEAKER_01]: I spoke to people in the National Security Council who essentially act as a link between the CIA and the White House, who were also relevant for this. 17:41.200 --> 17:42.921 [SPEAKER_01]: They were dealing with the case, in fact. 17:43.541 --> 17:44.941 [SPEAKER_01]: I spoke to field agents. 17:45.042 --> 17:48.403 [SPEAKER_01]: I spoke to tons of people in the American system in the German system. 17:53.822 --> 18:04.610 [SPEAKER_01]: And it all kind of matches, you know, like the CIA was indeed informed about preparations for an operation like that, and as soon as the leadership found out, they tried to stop it. 18:05.170 --> 18:05.951 [SPEAKER_01]: That is the truth. 18:06.011 --> 18:21.081 [SPEAKER_01]: That is the actual sort of involvement of the CIA in the North Stream operation is that as soon as they found out it was underfoot, they warned the Germans and they told them someone's trying to blow up your pipeline and be they told the Ukrainians to cease and 18:22.442 --> 18:24.263 [SPEAKER_01]: So, I've looked into that theory. 18:24.304 --> 18:41.376 [SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately, there was a lot of reporting which is entirely wrong about the CIA involvement, but it's sort of kind of caught on and catches on and there's a group of people, a pretty big group of people who's willing to believe in it because it's quite convenient to blame the CIA for everything. 18:41.836 --> 18:43.738 [SPEAKER_01]: If you come from a certain political perspective, 18:44.685 --> 18:49.547 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's also the case that there's not been official communication about this, right? 18:49.587 --> 18:53.649 [SPEAKER_01]: What I'm reporting is it's inclusive because it's the product of my investigation. 18:54.249 --> 19:01.092 [SPEAKER_01]: It will eventually come out during the trial, during the investigation, that the kind of the end of the investigation that you mentioned. 19:01.633 --> 19:06.475 [SPEAKER_01]: But for now, we don't have official communication and people just have to choose what they want to believe in. 19:07.235 --> 19:12.204 [SPEAKER_01]: And so you have some people who believe in the theory that the CIA did it and others believe that Russia did it. 19:13.647 --> 19:19.237 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it goes like always there is a kind of issues of great, great interest generated a lot of theories. 19:20.302 --> 19:39.011 [SPEAKER_02]: So this was the the I think you write the the biggest industrial sabotage in history I believe I mean these characters are you're writing a blew up a pipeline That did devastating damage and we can get to that 19:39.631 --> 19:57.519 [SPEAKER_02]: And it seemed to me that the people you're writing about fall into this gray zone of not quite official, but not quite entirely rogue either, walk us through the story of how this came about to begin with. 19:59.240 --> 20:05.483 [SPEAKER_02]: And who came up with the idea for such an audacious operation such as this, 20:06.305 --> 20:12.664 [SPEAKER_02]: And then in the aftermath, who knew what went about how it was going to be carried out? 20:13.815 --> 20:14.075 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 20:14.295 --> 20:29.300 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, to summarize, as soon as the full-scale invasion started, the people I talked about, the people I called the startup intelligence operatives, senior officers, soldiers, etc., they joined the special forces of the Ukrainian military. 20:29.900 --> 20:31.301 [SPEAKER_01]: They fought in the Battle of Kiev. 20:31.481 --> 20:32.861 [SPEAKER_01]: They won the Battle of Kiev. 20:33.622 --> 20:37.283 [SPEAKER_01]: And as soon as that was done around a month into the full-scale invasion, 20:38.445 --> 20:45.786 [SPEAKER_01]: They kind of set down one night in the office of one of the backers, financial backers of this group. 20:47.152 --> 21:07.966 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I failed to mention earlier, you know, a lot of units in the Ukraine armed forces are privately funded, which, which make, again, come as a surprise to a Western kind of audience, but to this day, especially for example, the drone units, they just kind of sometimes they're crowd funded, sometimes they're funded by the business community. 21:09.047 --> 21:12.069 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, sometimes they have to take care of their own business. 21:12.089 --> 21:15.071 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's, it's, it's the case that they do have financial backers. 21:15.471 --> 21:20.995 [SPEAKER_01]: So they set down in the office of one of these financial backers and could you say it's not that financial backer was. 21:22.420 --> 21:35.782 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't name anyone by their actual name and the book I call him the the walking lawsuit because he's he's he's had the encounters with the law in various shapes and forms although he himself served in government and a very senior position. 21:35.822 --> 21:39.543 [SPEAKER_02]: So one of those sketchy oligarchs who we've heard much about. 21:39.563 --> 21:41.343 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's minigarch. 21:41.383 --> 21:44.884 [SPEAKER_01]: I would say it's not a major class oligarch, but it's a sufficiently rich. 21:44.984 --> 21:47.805 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean he would be fabulous in rich in in America, you know. 21:47.885 --> 21:48.205 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 21:48.585 --> 21:49.745 [SPEAKER_03]: Sorry, you don't go ahead. 21:50.305 --> 21:50.585 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 21:51.146 --> 22:05.414 [SPEAKER_01]: So, and they kind of drafted a list of, they've made a decision to dedicate their work after the defense of Kiev to what they actually do best, which is hybrid warfare, economic warfare, asymmetry warfare, clandestine operations. 22:05.454 --> 22:10.377 [SPEAKER_01]: This is what they've been doing for a very long time, you know, at least since 2014. 22:12.138 --> 22:27.644 [SPEAKER_01]: So they drafted a list of targets, which they thought would be relevant for cutting the revenues that Vladimir Putin was deriving from Europe or his war machine that was grinding down their country. 22:28.585 --> 22:40.389 [SPEAKER_01]: And pretty much all of them had to do with the export or the exploitation of hydrocarbons, oil and gas, because that's essentially that was the main sources of revenues for the state 22:42.224 --> 22:48.312 [SPEAKER_03]: was, and I think, Germany was supplying them with, with billions of dollars buying Russia. 22:48.352 --> 22:48.932 [SPEAKER_03]: That's right. 22:49.013 --> 22:54.619 [SPEAKER_01]: Germany and the European Union were, were sending incredible amounts of money tons of billions of. 22:55.673 --> 23:13.668 [SPEAKER_01]: of Euras in the direction of the Kremlin long after the start of the full scale invasion because you know once you become reliant on a supplier of oil and gas which is a strategic commodity you can't just kind of shift for oil is much easier for gas is very difficult because gas 23:17.131 --> 23:23.916 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you don't have certain terminals to receive gas traveling by sea, then it's you're in a pickle and that's where the Germans found themselves. 23:24.597 --> 23:37.526 [SPEAKER_01]: So long after the the the start of the long scale of the full scale invasion, they were sending literal billions to Vladimir Putin, which is extraordinary, if you think that Germany and the EU were sending money and weapons to Ukraine. 23:38.427 --> 23:40.888 [SPEAKER_01]: to basically kill the Russian invaders. 23:41.028 --> 23:48.931 [SPEAKER_01]: At the same time, they were sending billions to Russia, which Russia used to equip this army and kill the Ukrainians. 23:49.211 --> 23:54.614 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a kind of a very convoluted thing that was happening at the time. 23:54.654 --> 23:56.574 [SPEAKER_01]: So cut a long story short. 23:56.655 --> 24:02.637 [SPEAKER_01]: The Ukrainians who were planning this decided they need to put an end to that and put a dent into those revenues. 24:03.317 --> 24:05.738 [SPEAKER_01]: So they had a list of about a dozen targets, 24:07.699 --> 24:13.045 [SPEAKER_01]: the Nord Stream Pipeline system, which they had known and hated for a very long time. 24:13.506 --> 24:15.948 [SPEAKER_01]: It was an extremely controversial project in Europe. 24:16.169 --> 24:22.596 [SPEAKER_01]: We have to explain a little bit about the background Nord Stream is the biggest offshore pipeline system in the world. 24:23.437 --> 24:27.441 [SPEAKER_01]: It took around 16, 15 years to construct the build. 24:28.322 --> 24:42.682 [SPEAKER_01]: It cost around $20 billion, and it was controversial from the inception, because the Germany and its western European sort of neighbors, it was just a source of cheap gas and what's not to like. 24:43.443 --> 25:01.815 [SPEAKER_01]: For countries like the United States, Great Britain, Poland, and Ukraine, it was actually a dangerous geopolitical instrument a device by Vladimir Putin to kind of bind Europe closer to himself and make Europe reliant if not addicted to Russian energy exports. 25:02.376 --> 25:04.457 [SPEAKER_02]: With the help of both former German 25:09.144 --> 25:14.028 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, I mean, the CEO of North Stream was a former German spy from Eastern Germany. 25:14.088 --> 25:15.489 [SPEAKER_01]: He worked with the Russians. 25:15.629 --> 25:18.752 [SPEAKER_01]: He worked for the notorious German secret service. 25:19.392 --> 25:25.317 [SPEAKER_01]: And then after the collapse of the, you know, Iron Curtain at the end of the Cold War, he kind of, 25:25.857 --> 25:37.532 [SPEAKER_01]: became a banker, he became an investor, he became friends with Vladimir Putin, and then he kind of rose up to become the CEO of Northstream, which is quite interesting to have a CEO a colorful figure. 25:37.572 --> 25:42.459 [SPEAKER_01]: He's extremely able and competent guy, but as well as having been a spook, 25:43.720 --> 25:46.202 [SPEAKER_01]: back in the days of the Cold War. 25:46.542 --> 25:49.544 [SPEAKER_01]: So essentially, it was a controversial pipeline. 25:49.564 --> 25:54.588 [SPEAKER_01]: It was a controversial project, but it went ahead nonetheless. 25:55.669 --> 25:58.370 [SPEAKER_01]: It consists of two pipelines, North Stream 1 and North Stream 2. 25:58.410 --> 26:00.372 [SPEAKER_01]: North Stream 1 came online in 2011. 26:00.392 --> 26:06.096 [SPEAKER_01]: North Stream 2 never came online because it was completed in October 2021. 26:06.916 --> 26:10.179 [SPEAKER_01]: And then it never came online because of the full scale invasion and 26:12.303 --> 26:23.293 [SPEAKER_01]: All American presidents starting from George W. Bush Jr. Opposed the pipeline, they weren't their German allies, not to do it. 26:24.033 --> 26:31.160 [SPEAKER_01]: But the Germans did it nonetheless, because they felt it was in their national interest to obtain cheap gas for households and for the industry. 26:32.186 --> 26:45.024 [SPEAKER_01]: And so in a way both sides of the arguments were right, you know, the proponents were right because it was cheap gas and it did fuel booming Germany economy and I'll just German Dutch French as well, etc. 26:45.124 --> 26:48.469 [SPEAKER_01]: Austria, but then when the full scale invasion came, 26:49.790 --> 27:10.665 [SPEAKER_01]: They, you know, it did turn out to be a geopolitical weapon because they found themselves addicted to Russian gas, so they couldn't stop sending money to Russia, and eventually they had to pay enormous amounts of money in terms of trying to kind of emancipate themselves from Russia as their primary supplier. 27:11.265 --> 27:14.528 [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, long story short, the people who decided to 27:15.248 --> 27:31.938 [SPEAKER_01]: to put a target on North Stream did that because they wanted to cut the revenues and because they wanted to break that geopolitical bonds between Western Europe and Russia especially between Berlin and Moscow because when they were planning the attack and that was some time in March 27:33.818 --> 27:41.180 [SPEAKER_01]: March or April 22, Germany was still not able to support Ukraine like it is supporting Ukraine now. 27:41.260 --> 27:45.461 [SPEAKER_01]: Germany was still hesitating, it was still kind of addicted to Russian energy exports. 27:46.022 --> 27:49.002 [SPEAKER_01]: And they felt, you know, Germany is the Europe's biggest economy. 27:49.463 --> 27:55.764 [SPEAKER_01]: Once they get, once they kind of kick off this addiction to Russian energy, they will be able to help us for real. 27:56.304 --> 27:57.745 [SPEAKER_01]: So that was the reasoning behind it. 27:58.545 --> 28:11.798 [SPEAKER_03]: I want to talk about a couple of the colorful characters in your book to the part of the sabotage team and also I'm interested in the CIA's role, such as it was in the attack, but we have to step away for a minute. 28:16.318 --> 28:17.359 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, we're back. 28:17.939 --> 28:29.649 [SPEAKER_03]: Volion, tell us about this as a headline put it, the mysterious woman behind the Nord Stream explosion, a civilian diving instructor from Ukraine. 28:31.222 --> 28:35.444 [SPEAKER_01]: So, the people who actually laid the minds onto the pipeline were civilians. 28:35.684 --> 28:49.370 [SPEAKER_01]: This is very interesting that the plan was conceived and carried out by, as I said, group of intelligence and military operatives, but they couldn't find deep sea divers who could go to the bottom of the ocean, which is around 80 meters. 28:51.671 --> 28:58.715 [SPEAKER_01]: below the surface, they couldn't find people combat divers in their special forces with that skill set because these people are quite rare. 28:59.316 --> 29:14.285 [SPEAKER_01]: Typically special forces like the Navy Seals or the special boat service in Great Britain, they don't do that, they don't operate at the bottom of the ocean, they put mines on to ships or cross rivers or kind of swim in the sea at a very shallow level. 29:14.726 --> 29:17.387 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not their job to do that, that's the job of engineers 29:18.788 --> 29:29.195 [SPEAKER_01]: So they decided to recruit civilians because Ukraine had a pretty significant community of deep sea divers, so called technical divers, people who can go that deep. 29:30.195 --> 29:38.001 [SPEAKER_01]: And among these people who ended up being recruited for the operation was the sole woman who was part of the team of the sabotage team. 29:38.601 --> 29:42.764 [SPEAKER_01]: And she too, like the rest of them, was a internationally certified 29:43.424 --> 29:59.671 [SPEAKER_01]: uh... deep sea diver instructor right she was that she had i think at that point almost twenty years around fifteen to twenty years of experience in deep sea diving so her background did not exactly cut her out to be involved in this kind of military operation right 29:59.931 --> 30:07.257 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, like all of them, she's an extremely interesting figure, right, when she was young, I don't want to reduce her to that, but that's what editors focus on. 30:07.437 --> 30:14.462 [SPEAKER_01]: It was a sentence in my book, but when she was around 20, she posed for a kind of erotic magazine, covers, and stuff like that. 30:14.482 --> 30:16.884 [SPEAKER_01]: That was around the time when she discovered diving, actually. 30:16.944 --> 30:20.927 [SPEAKER_01]: So, but that was a long time ago, that wasn't her profession for a long time. 30:20.967 --> 30:24.290 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just something she did in her youth, but you know, she was an erotic model. 30:25.170 --> 30:31.413 [SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, a lot of them have a very, very colorful background, all of them pretty much. 30:31.453 --> 30:33.514 [SPEAKER_01]: They mean these characters are extremely interesting. 30:34.234 --> 30:43.118 [SPEAKER_01]: The reason why I decided to write a book is when I found out who did it, and then when I found out who are the German detectives who are hunting them, I realize these people are larger than life. 30:43.138 --> 30:47.320 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, these characters just, you know, to do justice to their story, you have to write a book. 30:48.020 --> 30:56.374 [SPEAKER_01]: So she was part of the crew that was selected to blow up the pipelines and they used a sailing yacht as a cover. 30:57.450 --> 31:01.751 [SPEAKER_01]: a small sailing yacht called Andromeda, which they rented out in Germany, brazenly. 31:02.451 --> 31:12.214 [SPEAKER_01]: So they set sail from German shores, and they had initially a crew of six, three military officers, and three deep sea divers, including the woman. 31:12.774 --> 31:16.955 [SPEAKER_01]: Later on, three days before the end of the operation, another diver joined them. 31:17.015 --> 31:21.636 [SPEAKER_01]: So they, in total, they had a crew of seven towards the end of the operation. 31:21.756 --> 31:23.497 [SPEAKER_03]: And she was first into the water. 31:24.461 --> 31:42.147 [SPEAKER_01]: right, she turned out to be the most motivated and she kind of showed leadership in difficult situations because they ran into a storm, you know, they were diving towards the end of September, which is a can be a stormy period in the Baltic region, you know, whether it's not really nice at that time of the year. 31:43.143 --> 31:47.747 [SPEAKER_01]: And they ran into a pretty serious gale for storm. 31:47.787 --> 31:50.449 [SPEAKER_01]: They had to take shelter in Sweden unexpectedly. 31:50.529 --> 31:54.171 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're not having planned that in advance. 31:54.252 --> 32:03.318 [SPEAKER_01]: They were kind of washed or upwards towards South Sweden, but where they spent four days, I think, in ports sheltering and the storm just wouldn't subside. 32:03.819 --> 32:12.025 [SPEAKER_01]: So eventually they said sale into the storm and they did their job in the storm and it was the woman who motivated the old male crew. 32:12.565 --> 32:34.697 [SPEAKER_01]: To go ahead because there were no quite sure Whether they I mean, they were already risking their lives in what they were doing, but that seemed a little bit over the top going into in the storm It's gonna be a great move I was just making this is made for Hollywood Yeah, maybe if any of the re the New York Times reviewer said it's only problem with a book and it sounds like a movie 32:35.177 --> 32:48.734 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well, that's not bad for this as I hinted before the CIA was on to this they knew what was going on how deep was the CIA's knowledge and monitoring of this operation 32:50.568 --> 33:03.872 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is what happened, the people who planned the operation were very seasoned intelligence operatives from Ukraine and they had worked closely with the CIA since around 2014-15. 33:04.712 --> 33:16.135 [SPEAKER_01]: Because in 2014 there was a big revolutionary Ukraine, the pro-Russian government was swept away and ever since Ukraine has never had a pro-Russian government again. 33:16.815 --> 33:23.281 [SPEAKER_01]: And it kind of opened the doors to Western agencies, including the CIA, to help them defend themselves from the Russians. 33:23.701 --> 33:32.589 [SPEAKER_01]: So these guys, they were very closely sort of working with the CIA to the point that they even visited Langley, Virginia, the headquarters of the agency. 33:32.969 --> 33:35.331 [SPEAKER_01]: That's I think in 2018, if I'm not mistaken. 33:36.112 --> 33:43.839 [SPEAKER_01]: So they, and also they had been doing the same with Polish, with Swedish, with the other kind of Western, British, et cetera, intelligent services. 33:43.859 --> 33:48.182 [SPEAKER_01]: So when they set down to plan the technicalities of the operation, 33:49.665 --> 34:00.972 [SPEAKER_01]: and figure out the tradecraft, they realized they had never worked at the bottom of the sea, so they sought advice and guidance from friendly field agents from these agencies, including the CIA. 34:01.433 --> 34:09.418 [SPEAKER_01]: So they approached a guy with whom they had friendery relations who worked for the CIA and asked them how to do something like this, whether he had any experience of whatever. 34:10.038 --> 34:15.662 [SPEAKER_01]: So this guy was approached privately, so it wasn't the agency talking, right? 34:15.862 --> 34:21.205 [SPEAKER_01]: It was a guy who gave him a couple of pointers and a couple of guidelines. 34:21.365 --> 34:29.090 [SPEAKER_01]: And they were entirely useless because what he had proposed would have cost a millions of dollars involving undersea drones and ships and things like that. 34:29.411 --> 34:31.012 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the way the Americans would do it, right? 34:31.352 --> 34:33.013 [SPEAKER_01]: With high tech and et cetera. 34:33.193 --> 34:33.994 [SPEAKER_03]: Blaster money. 34:34.654 --> 34:35.434 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's right. 34:35.454 --> 34:36.355 [SPEAKER_03]: We're good as any. 34:36.875 --> 34:37.696 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, yeah. 34:38.217 --> 34:43.844 [SPEAKER_01]: And Ukraine's were, thank you very much, you know, we don't have these resources, how about we just use this small yacht and a bunch of civilians. 34:44.505 --> 34:45.746 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what they did in the end. 34:46.467 --> 34:55.137 [SPEAKER_01]: But in the midst of their planning, shortly before they were about to execute the operation, it was initially planned to be executed on the 19th of June 2022. 34:57.199 --> 35:08.584 [SPEAKER_01]: The Dutch military intelligence service go wind of the project and the Dutch military intelligence service is an extremely capable very small but very capable outfit, especially in that part of the world. 35:09.405 --> 35:20.910 [SPEAKER_01]: They go, they go human intelligence about the project and they notify the CIA in a kind of encrypted memo where they outline the plan and even name some of the personalities involved. 35:21.810 --> 35:27.462 [SPEAKER_01]: So then the CIA as an agency was notified and as soon as that happened it was kind of 35:28.788 --> 35:32.190 [SPEAKER_01]: It went all the way up to the top to William Burns, who was head of the agency at the time. 35:32.990 --> 35:41.195 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think he personally and others ordered that this would be stopped and that the Germans be warned about what was happening because they thought this was a terrible idea. 35:41.655 --> 35:43.796 [SPEAKER_01]: Why did they think it was a terrible idea? 35:44.357 --> 35:52.902 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, because at the time, Burns was tasked by President Biden to get the German Chancellor, who at the time was a guy called Olaf Scholz, 35:53.702 --> 36:01.526 [SPEAKER_01]: to actually unleash a kind of a much more substantial help for Ukraine because Germany is a the biggest economy in Europe. 36:02.307 --> 36:06.149 [SPEAKER_01]: It had at the time the so-called leopard tanks. 36:06.209 --> 36:15.494 [SPEAKER_01]: If you remember perhaps you'll remember vaguely there was a big debate about leopard tanks because at that stage of of the war before the drone's game tanks were important. 36:15.734 --> 36:17.575 [SPEAKER_01]: Armor was important for for, you know, 36:18.495 --> 36:31.180 [SPEAKER_01]: for the frontline, for defending and for attacking and and the Germans had stockpiles of these leopard tanks, which are I think are the sort of the best in the world, the Germans typically make things there and to be the best in the world. 36:31.380 --> 36:36.522 [SPEAKER_01]: And and and Biden was trying to get them to send these tanks and and he specifically tossed uh 36:37.842 --> 36:45.708 [SPEAKER_01]: William Burns, who was a frequent visitor to Berlin, and he even had meetings with the Chancellor to kind of lobby him to do this. 36:45.748 --> 37:00.579 [SPEAKER_01]: So when they found out that someone's trying to blow up the pipeline, they realize if this happens, and word gets around, the Chancellor will be under pressure politically to not help Ukraine, because they blew up the pipeline, which is relevant for the economy of Germany. 37:01.099 --> 37:03.523 [SPEAKER_01]: And therefore they thought it's no worth paying that price. 37:03.583 --> 37:04.624 [SPEAKER_01]: It's absolutely no worth it. 37:05.025 --> 37:14.598 [SPEAKER_01]: It's much more important to get Germany on board as a reliable ally to be shoulder the burden financially and in terms of material rather than blow up the pipeline. 37:14.618 --> 37:15.619 [SPEAKER_01]: That was a decision made. 37:16.220 --> 37:36.545 [SPEAKER_01]: And immediately they did warn the Germans and this is documented, you know, there's no there are no conspiracy theories that can kind of argue with this is documented, you know, they warned the external intelligence agency called BND and they also warn the internal security agency, both of them are communicating with the CIA. 37:37.405 --> 37:40.206 [SPEAKER_01]: and then then went to the Ukrainians and wore them not to do it. 37:40.706 --> 37:55.011 [SPEAKER_01]: They even went as far as to target specifically a senior officer who was involved in the plot a four-star general who was personally approached by the CIA and told to commit in writing that he will not do this. 37:55.051 --> 37:58.773 [SPEAKER_01]: The disoboration will not go ahead and which he promptly did he commit it in writing. 37:59.413 --> 38:01.134 [SPEAKER_01]: but then they went ahead and did it anyways. 38:01.234 --> 38:02.374 [SPEAKER_01]: And they ignored it, yeah. 38:02.774 --> 38:03.514 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's right. 38:03.574 --> 38:05.495 [SPEAKER_01]: So that was the involvement of the CIA. 38:05.595 --> 38:14.378 [SPEAKER_01]: As soon as the CIA as an agency found out about it as an administration, you know, wheels kicked in motion started rolling and they started they tried to to prevent it. 38:15.597 --> 38:20.782 [SPEAKER_03]: and then afterwards they put out a lot of lies about or encouraged lies that the Russians didn't. 38:21.022 --> 38:33.714 [SPEAKER_01]: Well that's the other chapter of the story you're quite right there was a lot of so cold you know there's a lot of talk about disinformation and misinformation and what not but it has to be said Germany America and other western allies were very quick. 38:34.375 --> 38:40.897 [SPEAKER_01]: off the bat to point to finger at Russia, although they knew it wasn't Russia or they had pretty credit. 38:40.917 --> 38:58.581 [SPEAKER_02]: So if this went to such senior levels that the director of the CIA is personally trying to put a stop to this and that this is, and the United States government is warning the Ukrainians don't do it, telling them not to do it. 38:59.821 --> 39:01.261 [SPEAKER_02]: It's hard to believe this wouldn't have gone 39:04.803 --> 39:10.067 [SPEAKER_02]: would have been aware of this operation in advance. 39:10.588 --> 39:10.828 [SPEAKER_01]: No. 39:11.068 --> 39:14.571 [SPEAKER_01]: So Zelensky denies any knowledge of the operation. 39:14.931 --> 39:19.856 [SPEAKER_01]: He says he was never notified by the military or by the Americans or by anyone. 39:19.876 --> 39:22.838 [SPEAKER_01]: He is a advisor, a advisor, still the same. 39:23.078 --> 39:27.702 [SPEAKER_01]: I spoke to one of his advisors who's kind of in charge of the Nord Stream portfolio now. 39:28.603 --> 39:34.685 [SPEAKER_01]: and he told me that he had looked into this and the Americans never contacted the presidential administration. 39:35.565 --> 39:44.767 [SPEAKER_01]: So he said they may be contacted our services, maybe they called it a technical level, maybe some official calls, some other official, but he never reached the presidential office. 39:44.807 --> 39:45.588 [SPEAKER_01]: It never reached us. 39:45.828 --> 39:46.528 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't understand. 39:46.548 --> 39:48.168 [SPEAKER_02]: Does that strike you as credible? 39:48.408 --> 39:53.470 [SPEAKER_02]: If the director of the CIA himself is personally involved in trying to put a stop to this, 39:54.170 --> 39:55.112 [SPEAKER_02]: How could it be? 39:55.312 --> 39:56.915 [SPEAKER_01]: It's hard to imagine. 39:57.255 --> 39:58.638 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's say anything's possible. 39:58.718 --> 39:59.619 [SPEAKER_01]: It's hard to imagine. 39:59.940 --> 40:01.502 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's, you know, look. 40:02.765 --> 40:11.712 [SPEAKER_01]: wild vision possible is a possible boy on that once he said don't tell me anything I don't know Hey look anything's possible. 40:11.933 --> 40:14.214 [SPEAKER_01]: Lensky is on the record hating the pipeline. 40:14.234 --> 40:16.856 [SPEAKER_01]: I like pretty much all Ukraine officials etc. 40:16.877 --> 40:28.586 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean he had he had a beef with Angela Merkel the former German Chancellor over North Stream 2 the second pipeline the second part of the pipeline and he was very much lobbying her not to do it. 40:28.626 --> 40:29.447 [SPEAKER_01]: She did it anyway. 40:30.067 --> 40:46.181 [SPEAKER_01]: so you know his position on the pipeline is pretty clear the people so the most senior official or rather officer who approved the operation was the then head of the armed forces general valet is illusiony who is now ambassador to Great Britain. 40:47.283 --> 40:59.473 [SPEAKER_01]: People around Zaluzni senior military officers say that he had at one point notified the president Zalensky about what was happening, that he briefed him on a series of operations, including the Northroom operation. 40:59.913 --> 41:09.841 [SPEAKER_01]: This doesn't mean that Zalensky approved it, or that Zalensky was involved in it, or that he was a kind of a driving force in it, that he was notified. 41:10.461 --> 41:14.465 [SPEAKER_01]: Zalensky denies that, and his people denied that very strong terms. 41:15.268 --> 41:21.612 [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, we'll see, we might find out more about this because the illusiony wants to run for president. 41:21.672 --> 41:28.917 [SPEAKER_01]: So, if there ever is a presidential kind of campaign where these two men will come head to head. 41:30.123 --> 41:34.885 [SPEAKER_01]: the subject of nursery might be may be raised, I think, on both sides who know so we'll see. 41:34.906 --> 41:49.353 [SPEAKER_02]: But for now and I do want to just point out, you know, the magnitude of what was done here and one passage in your book like, let out at me, more colossal geysers erupted in the Baltic sea. 41:50.133 --> 42:02.359 [SPEAKER_02]: unleashing nearly 500,000 metric tons of methane, the largest ever human cause gas release into the atmosphere, matching the annual carbon footprint of a small industrial nation. 42:02.819 --> 42:12.004 [SPEAKER_02]: The power of the blast equal the thermal output of a major nuclear reactor, marine life perished for miles, dissolved gas spread over 14% of the Baltic. 42:12.024 --> 42:12.304 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, 42:15.845 --> 42:24.250 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just trying to contemplate the amount of explosives that were needed to pull this off, but I mean, that's the interesting bit. 42:24.410 --> 42:33.556 [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of experts made an initial error to estimate that 500 kilograms of TNT would have been required to cause that level of damage. 42:34.156 --> 42:36.217 [SPEAKER_01]: because the explosion was incredibly violent. 42:36.237 --> 42:41.300 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was first registered by the early warning system for earthquakes as an earthquake. 42:41.320 --> 42:47.504 [SPEAKER_01]: So then, experts see his morphologist kind of poured over it and they realized, this doesn't look, the pattern doesn't look like an earthquake. 42:47.564 --> 42:50.366 [SPEAKER_01]: It looks like an explosion because they are trained to distinguish. 42:51.147 --> 43:00.072 [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, it actually truth is, it was an ingenious device constructed by a retired professor of engineering in Ukraine 43:02.017 --> 43:12.612 [SPEAKER_01]: people who planned the attack tapped and he came up with this idea, he studied how pipelines work and he said essentially the pipeline is highly pressurized around 160 bar. 43:13.413 --> 43:16.618 [SPEAKER_01]: Then you've got the pressure of the water on top of the pipeline. 43:17.038 --> 43:25.522 [SPEAKER_01]: you only need a tiny amount of explosion to kind of cut a slice into into the pipeline to kind of open a little hole. 43:26.023 --> 43:28.484 [SPEAKER_01]: And then the interaction of the pressure will do the rest. 43:28.544 --> 43:30.205 [SPEAKER_01]: It will be a violent chain reaction. 43:30.225 --> 43:31.666 [SPEAKER_01]: They will tear it apart entirely. 43:31.686 --> 43:32.846 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's exactly what happens. 43:33.106 --> 43:39.010 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a little bit if you shake a tin of coke, you know, a can of coke, and then you pierce it with a screwdriver. 43:39.030 --> 43:41.871 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there will be a sort of coke gashing out of it. 43:42.091 --> 43:43.012 [SPEAKER_01]: It's more or less 43:43.932 --> 43:49.263 [SPEAKER_01]: uh, the same kind of effect, but you know, like we see where the house blows up from a gas leak. 43:49.810 --> 43:50.590 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, exactly. 43:50.610 --> 43:52.791 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a puts it into wood chips. 43:53.651 --> 44:00.932 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's it's, you know, actually the amount of explosives they use, one explosive device was around 3040 kilograms. 44:00.992 --> 44:07.994 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, was that in pounds, but it's not much, you know, something you've seen 75 pounds, you know, probably something you can carry on your back. 44:08.014 --> 44:13.175 [SPEAKER_01]: They were concealed in in in in sort of the canister is in kind of diverse bottles. 44:14.155 --> 44:14.835 [SPEAKER_01]: oxygen bowls. 44:15.015 --> 44:19.177 [SPEAKER_01]: So actually it was, you know, it was very scientific what they did. 44:19.197 --> 44:22.858 [SPEAKER_01]: They needed a tiny little peer, like piercing a balloon. 44:23.059 --> 44:23.719 [SPEAKER_01]: That's what happened. 44:24.599 --> 44:26.700 [SPEAKER_01]: But the event was incredibly violent. 44:26.760 --> 44:28.861 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the explosion was incredibly violent. 44:28.881 --> 44:31.202 [SPEAKER_01]: And then gas kept pouring out for over a week. 44:31.682 --> 44:34.103 [SPEAKER_01]: It was visible from a satellite, the gas at four. 44:34.723 --> 44:44.106 [SPEAKER_02]: So the idea that the CIA was behind this or a part of it, it seems to me comes from two separate indicia. 44:44.287 --> 44:46.527 [SPEAKER_02]: One is Biden himself. 44:46.727 --> 44:47.988 [SPEAKER_02]: He was present at the time. 44:48.608 --> 44:53.630 [SPEAKER_02]: When the question of the Nordstrom pipeline came up, he said, you know, that's not going to happen. 44:53.850 --> 44:55.350 [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to stop that, right? 44:55.410 --> 44:58.591 [SPEAKER_02]: So that seemed to give motivation to the US government. 44:58.631 --> 45:02.693 [SPEAKER_02]: It was committed to stopping this pipeline. 45:02.793 --> 45:08.474 [SPEAKER_02]: And then, you know, one of the legendary investigative reporters of all time, see more Hirsch, you know, 45:11.936 --> 45:29.057 [SPEAKER_02]: wrote a lengthy article claiming to have inside sources saying that this was all approved at the White House by the National Security Council and that obviously fueled a lot of the CIA was behind this thinking. 45:29.857 --> 45:46.289 [SPEAKER_02]: We talk about those two facts, you know, the bites comment and see my herses article and why they were why they should not be seen as evidence of a CIA fingerprint. 45:51.993 --> 45:53.395 [SPEAKER_01]: we have a very long phone call. 45:53.415 --> 45:53.635 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 45:54.136 --> 45:57.540 [SPEAKER_01]: So look, starting with Biden, that's the most more important thing. 45:57.881 --> 46:01.205 [SPEAKER_01]: Biden was president of the United States in January 2022. 46:01.265 --> 46:04.950 [SPEAKER_01]: He had a joint press conference with the then chancellor of Germany, Olaf Scholz. 46:05.491 --> 46:06.532 [SPEAKER_01]: In the oval, I think. 46:07.513 --> 46:15.159 [SPEAKER_01]: And he was asked about Norstrum II because Norstrum II was about to get certified and come online just before the full-scale invasion. 46:16.260 --> 46:23.585 [SPEAKER_01]: And he said, you know, if Putin, I can't quote, I'm quoting for memory, but he said if Putin marches into Ukraine, we'll put an end to it. 46:23.705 --> 46:25.707 [SPEAKER_01]: And then it was a full-up question of how will you do that? 46:26.127 --> 46:27.068 [SPEAKER_01]: And he said, don't worry. 46:27.108 --> 46:27.528 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll do it. 46:27.568 --> 46:28.469 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll put an end to it. 46:28.949 --> 46:30.310 [SPEAKER_01]: What he meant was sanctions. 46:30.410 --> 46:31.631 [SPEAKER_01]: He didn't mean to blow it up. 46:31.671 --> 46:35.474 [SPEAKER_01]: There's no need to blow up a pipeline if you're the United States of America. 46:36.663 --> 47:02.692 [SPEAKER_01]: The pipeline at this very moment is dead as Dodo because not because it's blown up the Russians can fix it It's because it's sanctioned by the United States and by the European Union and it's never been certified as a result So sanctions are more powerful than explosives ever since the incident Putin has been trying to repair the pipelines and To bring them back online, but that's not possible because they are under sanctions 47:03.392 --> 47:08.533 [SPEAKER_01]: So American sanctions are extremely effective, so-called secondary sanctions. 47:09.014 --> 47:20.357 [SPEAKER_01]: They basically, they mean that the pipeline can sell gas, but there's nobody to buy it because if you are at the German end and you buy the gas, you become affected by the sanctions. 47:20.417 --> 47:23.297 [SPEAKER_01]: And no company in Europe will ever do that, right? 47:23.758 --> 47:27.258 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, Chinese companies might do that or Iranian companies might do that. 47:27.499 --> 47:31.480 [SPEAKER_01]: Certainly, no European companies who operate legally on the market. 47:32.860 --> 47:51.846 [SPEAKER_01]: The sanctions on the pipeline are now preventing Vladimir Putin from even fixing them, like the owner of the pipeline's gas problem, the state owned an energy giant or Russia, has been trying hard to to observe, to close the holes, to fix the pipelines, to at least stop the rot, the corrosion, et cetera. 47:52.567 --> 47:56.428 [SPEAKER_01]: And even that is not possible or extremely difficult under the sanctions, 48:00.228 --> 48:02.489 [SPEAKER_01]: they're basically untouchable because of these sanctions. 48:02.829 --> 48:08.672 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of lunacies of thing that Biden would go on television and say, well, up to five. 48:08.992 --> 48:10.172 [SPEAKER_01]: Why would he do that, right? 48:10.312 --> 48:12.493 [SPEAKER_01]: And your conversation with Siher? 48:13.034 --> 48:15.435 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Siher, yeah, that was a bit of a disappointment. 48:15.475 --> 48:22.158 [SPEAKER_01]: I have to say, you know, obviously he's a legendary figure and much respected and, you know, he's got great merit in as a reporter. 48:23.078 --> 48:33.823 [SPEAKER_01]: but he seems to have one source, he published this on Substack, he published the kind of a blog post relying on one source. 48:34.243 --> 48:36.424 [SPEAKER_01]: He made claims which are entirely outlandish. 48:36.464 --> 48:37.924 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, the none of that is true. 48:38.044 --> 48:43.327 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just simply absolutely every single bit of that report is not true. 48:44.367 --> 49:02.760 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't understand why, you know, when I asked him things, he would say, you know, he said like the only thing I'm not sure about is whether or not the German Chancellor was in on the conspiracy sort of, you know, I count, I quote him now, I don't, but you know, he said basically, I just don't, I'm not sure if the, if the Chancellor was in on it. 49:03.340 --> 49:11.446 [SPEAKER_01]: And that betrayed to me like enormous ignorance, first of all, who the Chancellor is, what Germany is, you know, the idea, the Chancellor was a champion of North 49:12.106 --> 49:14.688 [SPEAKER_01]: like he was he didn't want them blown up. 49:14.748 --> 49:39.885 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean the idea that he would be sort of a patty for the CIA to you know it's just these are just like caricatures of reality you know and and you know that notwithstanding even the factual sort of you know he named certain ships and vessels and assets in his reporting and these kind of open source investigators found that these ships were elsewhere at the time there were no even there what they were meant to be. 49:40.644 --> 50:03.897 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's rather disappointed I don't know how maybe he was misled by a source maybe he was he was a rogue source potentially I mean who knows certainly there is no source I've spoken to and I've spoken to a dozen of people who were serving in very high level in the CIA in in the NSE in the in the White House in the government you know 50:04.997 --> 50:09.620 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just, you know, and they are, it's important to note they come from both parties, right? 50:10.281 --> 50:18.406 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's nothing present, Trump would presumably like better than expose present Biden for having blown something out for done something wrong, you know? 50:18.746 --> 50:19.547 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, remember the, 50:20.347 --> 50:21.488 [SPEAKER_01]: the autopant. 50:21.528 --> 50:25.690 [SPEAKER_01]: He keeps banging on about the autopant that Biden was signing things with the autopant. 50:25.930 --> 50:30.393 [SPEAKER_01]: Imagine he had, oh, look, Biden blew up the pipeline in a kind of a terror attacking his Germany. 50:30.733 --> 50:32.974 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this would be all over the news, you know what I mean? 50:33.394 --> 50:42.439 [SPEAKER_01]: People in both sides of the political divide are saying the same thing, right, that by A, Biden meant sanctions and B, they had nothing to do with it. 50:42.459 --> 50:45.341 [SPEAKER_01]: And in fact, as soon as they found out, they tried to stop it. 50:46.220 --> 51:01.437 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's rather unfortunate and also in journalism there are no stories that cannot be corroborated like it's been three years now almost since he published that blog post and none of the investigative journalists of this world were managed to manage to match his story. 51:01.457 --> 51:03.559 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean alone that should be slightly worrying. 51:04.300 --> 51:07.302 [SPEAKER_01]: sort of, you know, my story is matched by the German prosecutor, right? 51:07.362 --> 51:32.234 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, yeah, I just want to say just to wrap up your tell us about the German police investigation, where that stands, who's in custody, who's not in custody, and where how high up the chain can this go if there were senior people in the Ukrainian government, who signed off on this, had knowledge of it, it would seem that they would be within the orbit of this 51:35.267 --> 51:41.551 [SPEAKER_01]: So the investigation, I mean, the investigation relies exclusively on very, very hard evidence. 51:41.771 --> 51:53.819 [SPEAKER_01]: So what's happened so far is that the German prosecutor issued international arrest warrants or the seven people they claim were on the sabotage boat who were part of the sabotage crew. 51:54.580 --> 52:00.584 [SPEAKER_01]: For some of them, they have fingerprints, they have DNA samples, they have pictures taken 52:03.105 --> 52:05.426 [SPEAKER_01]: they have witnesses testimonies in some cases. 52:06.166 --> 52:07.407 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's hard evidence. 52:09.207 --> 52:19.771 [SPEAKER_01]: They have arrested a man in Italy who was there on holiday with his family and he was since transferred to Germany and he's a waiting trial. 52:20.211 --> 52:25.653 [SPEAKER_01]: He's been charged for having been the leader of the sabotage group. 52:26.453 --> 52:31.556 [SPEAKER_01]: And he's been charged with several counts, including war crimes. 52:31.796 --> 52:32.937 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, that's interesting. 52:32.977 --> 52:34.337 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a very severe charge. 52:35.098 --> 52:44.583 [SPEAKER_01]: Why war crimes is because I think the prodigy curious of Germany and trying to preempt the defense saying this was a military operation. 52:44.603 --> 52:51.747 [SPEAKER_01]: And therefore, this individual cannot be tried in a civilian court of law, because he has what is known as combat and immunity. 52:52.554 --> 52:56.116 [SPEAKER_01]: the German prosecutor jumps over that argument and says, okay, this was war. 52:57.056 --> 52:58.637 [SPEAKER_01]: It was an illegitimate target. 52:58.677 --> 53:00.618 [SPEAKER_01]: This is a pipeline that was servicing us. 53:00.778 --> 53:02.099 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not Russian pipeline. 53:02.119 --> 53:04.300 [SPEAKER_01]: It's away from the frontline, et cetera. 53:04.320 --> 53:05.641 [SPEAKER_01]: They have a bunch of legal arguments. 53:06.021 --> 53:07.822 [SPEAKER_01]: And therefore, this is a war crime. 53:08.322 --> 53:10.243 [SPEAKER_01]: And we will charge this man with a war crime. 53:10.263 --> 53:11.744 [SPEAKER_01]: So you can't claim immunity. 53:13.084 --> 53:15.546 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll see what happens obviously in the court arena. 53:15.686 --> 53:18.087 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this will be a trial like unlike any other. 53:18.227 --> 53:21.689 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think these arguments have ever been tested in a court of law. 53:24.250 --> 53:27.132 [SPEAKER_01]: How far up the chain of command can they go? 53:27.172 --> 53:32.476 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, they can't really go far because like I said, they need hard evidence from what I gather. 53:32.496 --> 53:39.441 [SPEAKER_01]: There are no documents left that would could be used as evidence from the Ukrainian system. 53:39.561 --> 53:43.664 [SPEAKER_01]: All the documents that refer to the operation were destroyed at the time. 53:45.506 --> 53:52.392 [SPEAKER_01]: German prosecutors have no jurisdiction in Ukraine, German police cannot go and investigate outside of the national borders of their country. 53:53.333 --> 54:03.922 [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't think they can get far, but what is now interestingly happening is that prosecutors in Ukraine have also opened the case. 54:05.301 --> 54:07.162 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is a very political issue. 54:07.362 --> 54:28.287 [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody quite understands what they want to do with this, but there is a theory that President Zelensky would be keen on General's illusiony being fingered as part of this operation if the illusiony becomes a candidate who would challenge him for the office of the president, right, in the presidential elections. 54:28.927 --> 54:30.588 [SPEAKER_01]: So there is a theory that, 54:32.065 --> 54:40.814 [SPEAKER_01]: investigation on the Ukrainian side might be designed to kind of roll up people under the illusion and eventually get to him in order to prevent him from running for president. 54:40.855 --> 54:48.363 [SPEAKER_01]: So in that scenario, I don't know if the Ukrainians would then share whatever information they can get. 54:48.923 --> 54:51.345 [SPEAKER_01]: with their German counterparts. 54:51.745 --> 54:58.791 [SPEAKER_01]: What I do know is when I put this to the illusionist people, they said, bring it on, let them do it. 54:59.031 --> 55:08.739 [SPEAKER_01]: And what if they do it, we'll put it on billboards before the election, because whoever blew up the pipeline, will be a hero to the voters in Ukraine, and they will vote him into the presidential office. 55:09.260 --> 55:11.161 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's that's the kind of sentiment there. 55:11.782 --> 55:12.903 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll we'll see what happens. 55:15.863 --> 55:22.125 [SPEAKER_03]: I haven't seen any reporting on that boy on about the Ukrainian side of this investigation. 55:22.466 --> 55:23.706 [SPEAKER_03]: Have you reported on that? 55:24.466 --> 55:25.387 [SPEAKER_01]: No, that's quite fresh. 55:25.447 --> 55:26.847 [SPEAKER_01]: It happened in the last week or so. 55:27.808 --> 55:28.468 [SPEAKER_03]: Hmm. 55:28.868 --> 55:31.209 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, we have to leave it at that. 55:31.309 --> 55:41.753 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, there's so much more we could discuss like the CIA's relationship with Ukraine under the Biden after actually under the Biden administration and Trump. 55:41.813 --> 55:43.314 [SPEAKER_03]: It's still going strong, right? 55:43.892 --> 56:08.833 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so the CIA is collaborating like CIA and other special services of the US are collaborating in Ukraine's strikes on Russia very deep now spectacular you might even say and Well We call you again probably to come back on podcast and talk about that with great pleasure It's this has been great talk. 56:08.873 --> 56:09.313 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you. 56:09.393 --> 56:09.874 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you. 56:10.074 --> 56:10.694 [SPEAKER_03]: Fascinating. 56:10.714 --> 56:11.135 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much 56:12.942 --> 56:14.583 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's it for this week's by-talk. 56:14.703 --> 56:19.425 [SPEAKER_03]: Be sure to check out our complete podcast archive on Apple or wherever you get your podcast. 56:19.845 --> 56:34.711 [SPEAKER_03]: And if you haven't already, do check out thespitealk.co news site on Substack, where we offer steady diet of scopes and the original analyses from the intersection of intelligence, foreign policy, and military operations. 56:34.751 --> 56:38.273 [SPEAKER_03]: Just Google Spitealk and you'll quickly find your way there. 56:39.155 --> 56:48.225 [SPEAKER_03]: This edition of the SpyTalk podcast was smoothly produced, as always, by can I, and expertly edited by Molly Hawkey for MSW Media. 56:49.366 --> 56:49.686 [SPEAKER_03]: That's it. 56:49.987 --> 56:50.587 [SPEAKER_03]: See you around. 56:50.747 --> 56:51.488 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm Jeff Stein. 56:51.508 --> 56:52.950 [SPEAKER_03]: Am I going to go to the golf? 56:53.731 --> 56:54.632 [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for listening. 56:55.605 --> 57:04.008 [SPEAKER_00]: For more original reporting and insights like this, subscribe to spytalk.co on Substack and follow us on Twitter at Talk Under Score Spy. 57:04.488 --> 57:11.630 [SPEAKER_00]: If you enjoyed our podcast, subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. 57:11.650 --> 57:19.473 [SPEAKER_00]: 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