WEBVTT 00:11.147 --> 00:16.748 [SPEAKER_02]: If you've ever tried to quit pornography, you know it's often much harder than simply deciding to stop. 00:17.508 --> 00:18.529 [SPEAKER_02]: So why is that? 00:18.989 --> 00:21.769 [SPEAKER_02]: And what actually helps people make lasting progress? 00:22.709 --> 00:26.650 [SPEAKER_02]: Today we're joined by License Professional Counselor, Joseph Alto. 00:27.210 --> 00:39.273 [SPEAKER_02]: Joe has spent years helping individuals navigate compulsive pornography use, and he also serves as head of growth and partnerships at Relay, a recovery app built around accountability and community. 00:40.013 --> 00:47.439 [SPEAKER_02]: In this conversation, we move beyond quick fixes and talk about practical, evidence-informed strategies for recovery. 00:48.180 --> 00:57.207 [SPEAKER_02]: From understanding your triggers and building healthier coping habits, to navigating setbacks with self-compassion and finding support that actually helps. 00:58.047 --> 00:59.529 [SPEAKER_02]: With that, let's jump in. 01:00.269 --> 01:03.712 [SPEAKER_02]: We hope you enjoy this episode of Consider Before Consuming. 01:05.863 --> 01:08.885 [SPEAKER_00]: But Joe, thank you so much for joining me on Considerable for consuming. 01:08.925 --> 01:11.207 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so excited to get to have this conversation with you today. 01:11.227 --> 01:13.729 [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for putting it over having me on. 01:14.469 --> 01:15.370 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, our pleasure. 01:16.010 --> 01:19.253 [SPEAKER_00]: To start, can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about the work that you do? 01:19.701 --> 01:20.482 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 01:20.542 --> 01:21.922 [SPEAKER_03]: So my name is Joseph Altou. 01:22.343 --> 01:24.604 [SPEAKER_03]: Usually go by Joe, go by Joseph professionally. 01:25.405 --> 01:27.306 [SPEAKER_03]: And I have two roles professionally. 01:27.346 --> 01:32.969 [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm the head of growth in partnerships at the porn addiction recovery app called Relay. 01:33.249 --> 01:35.651 [SPEAKER_03]: And I am also a clinical therapist. 01:35.971 --> 01:39.654 [SPEAKER_03]: So my work at Relay really focuses exactly with the title since, right? 01:39.734 --> 01:46.378 [SPEAKER_03]: So growth in partnerships, how can I find different avenues to grow or product and how can I find individuals 01:48.519 --> 01:54.044 [SPEAKER_03]: bodies of individuals such as churches, therapist groups, right? 01:54.084 --> 02:00.729 [SPEAKER_03]: How can I get them to get unbored with the mission and the advocacy that we're doing with the app? 02:01.390 --> 02:13.220 [SPEAKER_03]: And then clinically speaking, I have been a licensed therapist and a therapist in the state of Ohio, and I've worked primarily with men focusing on men's issues. 02:14.163 --> 02:14.803 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, awesome. 02:15.223 --> 02:26.887 [SPEAKER_00]: And you have, you know, this isn't your only area of expertise, but with the work that you're doing with relay focused on pornography, which our listeners have heard all about relay, and we'll talk a little bit more about that in a moment. 02:26.927 --> 02:31.488 [SPEAKER_00]: But what led you to want to help people who are struggling with pornography specifically? 02:31.980 --> 02:32.200 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 02:32.240 --> 02:33.020 [SPEAKER_03]: No, absolutely. 02:33.300 --> 02:36.941 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, you know, I had my own personal story of pornography. 02:37.201 --> 02:38.621 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm only 34 years old. 02:39.081 --> 02:46.362 [SPEAKER_03]: So that I don't know a lot of men who are 34 who have been struggled with pornography at some point in their lives. 02:46.763 --> 02:48.223 [SPEAKER_03]: And it really did play a number of my life. 02:48.303 --> 02:52.103 [SPEAKER_03]: And I do remember just even to, you know, get personal for a second. 02:52.123 --> 02:58.605 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I remember I was a year in the marriage before I really started doing something serious about my pornography addiction. 02:59.305 --> 03:00.685 [SPEAKER_03]: And it really did 03:01.605 --> 03:02.905 [SPEAKER_03]: vote well with my wife, right? 03:03.306 --> 03:04.626 [SPEAKER_03]: And in our marriage. 03:05.126 --> 03:08.487 [SPEAKER_03]: So even going through that experience and the work that I've done. 03:08.507 --> 03:10.128 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I've known. 03:10.288 --> 03:11.428 [SPEAKER_03]: I've learned a couple things, right? 03:11.448 --> 03:15.930 [SPEAKER_03]: Where, you know, it is possible to recover from from this addiction. 03:16.950 --> 03:20.391 [SPEAKER_03]: And that, you know, I would like to pay it forward. 03:20.771 --> 03:22.411 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think my story is unique. 03:23.051 --> 03:23.711 [SPEAKER_03]: I really don't. 03:23.911 --> 03:28.552 [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's a very common story, like a set of monks, you know, my generation. 03:28.612 --> 03:38.814 [SPEAKER_03]: So if I was able to, and whatever way, to help other men specifically find a path through this addiction, yeah, I was all game for it. 03:38.874 --> 03:42.115 [SPEAKER_03]: So that's really the motivation behind the work that I do. 03:42.787 --> 04:01.632 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, which is so good to be able to understand that on a personal level, and as you mentioned, it's unfortunately not an uncommon experience, and we hear from so many individuals who, like you grew up with the internet and technology kind of advancing, so that this became pornography became more accessible and more available. 04:02.172 --> 04:06.654 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that is a very common story, and I appreciate you sharing that kind of personal anecdote. 04:06.674 --> 04:07.654 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I do into this work. 04:08.554 --> 04:14.916 [SPEAKER_00]: In the work you've done with individuals who struggle with pornography, you know, a lot of people think, well, if I wanted to stop, I would. 04:15.657 --> 04:21.539 [SPEAKER_00]: Can you tell us about why quitting is often so much more difficult than people expect? 04:22.642 --> 04:24.523 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, I have never met. 04:24.643 --> 04:27.665 [SPEAKER_03]: I guess someone who's just done it on will power alone. 04:28.246 --> 04:29.146 [SPEAKER_03]: God bless them, right? 04:29.166 --> 04:33.149 [SPEAKER_03]: If they have, I personally don't know anyone who's been able to do that. 04:33.169 --> 04:36.191 [SPEAKER_03]: And I certainly wasn't able to do that myself. 04:36.251 --> 04:42.595 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, and there's a lot of things playing against the individual who wants to quit corn, but decides they don't want to... 04:43.335 --> 04:46.536 [SPEAKER_03]: use, whether it's like clinical, whatever type of intervention, right? 04:46.556 --> 04:54.318 [SPEAKER_03]: A clinical, they don't want to go to therapy, they don't want to try an app like relayer, they don't want to at least even get like tapped into a network like fight the new drug, right? 04:54.538 --> 05:01.520 [SPEAKER_03]: I want to do this all by myself, I mean, you're really fighting against at this point billion dollar companies, right? 05:01.580 --> 05:10.903 [SPEAKER_03]: Billing dollar companies that get you addicted to the phone, billion dollar companies that get you addicted to pornography, and then there's also, you know, just the 05:12.133 --> 05:16.775 [SPEAKER_03]: the commonality of the pornographic culture, and you have all these triggers in your brain. 05:16.935 --> 05:19.736 [SPEAKER_03]: And your brain is also, by the way, working against you, right? 05:19.997 --> 05:22.438 [SPEAKER_03]: Because you're experiencing all these triggers in your brain. 05:22.458 --> 05:29.001 [SPEAKER_03]: So you could even, you know, be listening to, let's just say a pop song, right, with graphic lyrics in it. 05:29.021 --> 05:33.683 [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of people don't realize, like, yes, that imagery that is created in your head. 05:34.543 --> 05:37.187 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, then be the trader to make you want to look at pornography. 05:37.507 --> 05:42.714 [SPEAKER_03]: So I guess to answer your question, I mean, really it's, I don't think it's a very sophisticated answer. 05:42.734 --> 05:52.147 [SPEAKER_03]: I just think you have too many things going against you at any given point for you not to tap into the interventions that exist out there. 05:52.838 --> 05:53.078 [SPEAKER_00]: right. 05:53.439 --> 06:10.778 [SPEAKER_00]: So really at the root of it, it's this idea that's like, well, if I wanted to quit, I would, but knowing that it can be addictive, knowing as you said these billion dollar companies have worked to prey upon young people, especially algorithms are designed to keep people kind of hooked in the cycle of endless content. 06:11.298 --> 06:16.419 [SPEAKER_00]: And then the way that this is working within your brain, as you mentioned, is really keeping you hooked. 06:16.540 --> 06:20.441 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's not something that's just easy to quit. 06:21.521 --> 06:30.703 [SPEAKER_00]: But then you have the other side of this, which is that often individuals who are kind of stuck in that struggle are isolating, are withdrawing from their communities and their families and their relationships. 06:30.763 --> 06:34.525 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it can be so much more difficult than many people think. 06:39.946 --> 06:43.107 [SPEAKER_00]: who actually begins making lasting progress? 06:44.368 --> 06:45.468 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's a good question. 06:45.488 --> 06:55.292 [SPEAKER_03]: I see people who are serious about making lasting progress link up with some type of intervention. 06:55.452 --> 07:05.416 [SPEAKER_03]: Again, whether that's just like one on one therapy, whether that's a group, having an accountability partner, finding resources out there, trying really to get to the why. 07:05.436 --> 07:06.457 [SPEAKER_03]: I would say that's 07:07.636 --> 07:12.221 [SPEAKER_03]: really the big indicator of a of a person who is serious about kicking this. 07:12.602 --> 07:13.583 [SPEAKER_03]: It's what's the why? 07:13.603 --> 07:18.048 [SPEAKER_03]: Because it's hardly ever a porn problem and it's mostly always a pain problem, right? 07:18.148 --> 07:20.491 [SPEAKER_03]: Like I said, you know, I was third, I'm 34 years old. 07:20.771 --> 07:24.055 [SPEAKER_03]: I started looking at pornography when I was 12 years old, right? 07:24.355 --> 07:26.237 [SPEAKER_03]: And so the day that I struck out 07:26.758 --> 07:30.000 [SPEAKER_03]: in my baseball game, my dad saw it and I got really embarrassed and really sad. 07:30.301 --> 07:32.402 [SPEAKER_03]: And then I looked at pornography when I got home, right? 07:32.622 --> 07:33.463 [SPEAKER_03]: That was the reason. 07:33.543 --> 07:33.703 [SPEAKER_03]: Right? 07:33.723 --> 07:35.765 [SPEAKER_03]: So now, you know, as I got older, right? 07:36.245 --> 07:42.470 [SPEAKER_03]: You associate every distressing emotion, boredom, anxiety, depression. 07:42.730 --> 07:44.391 [SPEAKER_03]: What have you, right? 07:44.571 --> 07:45.492 [SPEAKER_03]: With pornography. 07:45.552 --> 07:47.273 [SPEAKER_03]: And you really got to get to that why. 07:47.413 --> 07:52.417 [SPEAKER_03]: You really got to figure out what are the themes and patterns of my, of my pornography usage. 07:53.627 --> 08:02.206 [SPEAKER_03]: that if someone if a man or a woman can do that, I would say, yeah, they're out of better track than an individual who's not. 08:02.895 --> 08:26.805 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so would you say that, you know, there are common patterns or the reasons that people struggle with pornography, you know, do they tend to be fairly common or do they tend to be fairly different, you just mentioned some, you know, pornography being that emotional coping mechanism for stress or, you know, boredom or anxiety at the time someone's very young, do you find that's really common or do reasons people struggle tend to very quite a bit. 08:33.257 --> 08:42.966 [SPEAKER_03]: However, I think centrally speaking, for the, again, specifically, I wanna be very clear about this specifically for men, because that's more of my wheelhouse. 08:43.106 --> 08:56.920 [SPEAKER_03]: But I would say, trying to like, centrally locate this, for most men, it is the baby blanket for some type of pain that they don't want to feel at the present moment. 08:57.940 --> 09:07.767 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's what's really sad is that it gets so unconscious at some point, that you don't ever actually realize that you are trying to mask away boredom. 09:07.787 --> 09:12.151 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I mean, and what's hard is that these are very just foundational. 09:13.777 --> 09:15.417 [SPEAKER_03]: human emotions in the human experience. 09:15.437 --> 09:17.958 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's, you know, three o'clock my time. 09:18.058 --> 09:21.698 [SPEAKER_03]: I've already been anxious, bored, and depressed today, right? 09:21.798 --> 09:24.479 [SPEAKER_03]: Like these are all these are all emotions that I have felt. 09:24.899 --> 09:40.322 [SPEAKER_03]: So the answer is like, we cannot, we shouldn't be running away from these very naturally occurring things that are just like caked into our human anthropology, but we should be recognizing what are the ways in which we are trying to escape. 09:41.022 --> 09:44.705 [SPEAKER_03]: from this natural human anthropology that we have. 09:45.366 --> 09:57.217 [SPEAKER_03]: So, yeah, I mean, I really believe that sometimes it's in theory that simple, you're bored, you're depressed, you're anxious, you're embarrassed, you're not feeling loved, right? 09:57.837 --> 09:58.598 [SPEAKER_03]: I want to go to porn. 09:58.658 --> 10:00.980 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not being noticed, you're going to porn, right? 10:01.301 --> 10:03.823 [SPEAKER_03]: I do think in theory it's really that basic. 10:04.469 --> 10:19.388 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, we spoke with someone recently who said adults don't get addicted to pornography kids do and while they're certainly are, you know, I'm sure some adults who hadn't seen pornography until later in life and feel they're, you know, 10:19.788 --> 10:22.209 [SPEAKER_00]: compulsive habit or addiction began in adulthood. 10:22.829 --> 10:43.036 [SPEAKER_00]: For the majority of people, as you mentioned, are people who see this for the first time very young and it does become the response to these very human emotions that if you have kind of that go to response, you're not necessarily going to a trusted adult or, you know, someone's not talking to about how to manage that emotion at a young age and this can kind of be 10:43.696 --> 10:51.201 [SPEAKER_00]: the path that a lot of individuals very naturally find themselves on because this is what is available and normalized, especially for young men. 10:52.021 --> 11:01.107 [SPEAKER_00]: With all of that in mind, let's talk a little bit about some principles that tend to help, you know, many people while recognizing that recovery looks different for everyone. 11:01.227 --> 11:05.370 [SPEAKER_00]: So if someone's listening today who wants to quit, where should they start? 11:06.698 --> 11:14.221 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, I think like every issue, right, you do have to have some amendments that this is an issue, right? 11:14.241 --> 11:26.265 [SPEAKER_03]: I think that is at the very least that is always whether right now, if someone's, yes, if someone's listening to this and there's certainly whether it's to yourself or to your journal or to a friend, right, admitting, 11:27.005 --> 11:30.446 [SPEAKER_03]: Throwing that out to the ether is a good idea, right? 11:30.466 --> 11:35.248 [SPEAKER_03]: You have to, I mean, that's why we have language right to make ideas into living things, right? 11:35.288 --> 11:39.129 [SPEAKER_03]: So you need to actually verbalize this in some degree. 11:39.929 --> 11:48.652 [SPEAKER_03]: And then I do believe that you have to be linked up with a trusted individual and accountability partner, a group. 11:49.453 --> 11:55.615 [SPEAKER_03]: And I know this is probably the most vulnerable and scary thing for most people to do because they think that I'm the only one 11:57.056 --> 12:00.638 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's why it's important is to destigmatize it to some degree, right? 12:00.658 --> 12:03.399 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's like you need to just be able to raw share this. 12:03.939 --> 12:15.905 [SPEAKER_03]: So I would say, you know, find a trusted individual that you know, or maybe it's something like, you know, a group that you might be more comfortable not knowing these individuals, so that you can be honest with them. 12:15.945 --> 12:16.305 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, 12:20.640 --> 12:26.862 [SPEAKER_03]: it was something along the lines of, you know, this, this issue is bread in isolation. 12:27.162 --> 12:29.382 [SPEAKER_03]: So the opposite of isolation is connectivity. 12:29.462 --> 12:32.983 [SPEAKER_03]: So according to that logic, right, get out there, do something about it. 12:33.523 --> 12:39.985 [SPEAKER_03]: And then there is also, and I, I don't even mean to be tongue-in-cheek about this, but there's also just a very practical step. 12:40.025 --> 12:42.905 [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, you just gotta get the pornography away. 12:42.945 --> 12:46.646 [SPEAKER_03]: And people, I know, even today, they're like, well, I know, but it's deeper than that. 12:46.886 --> 12:48.047 [SPEAKER_03]: 100% it's deeper than that. 12:50.268 --> 12:56.295 [SPEAKER_03]: But the brain can do like really amazing things when you are not continuously introducing a stimulus. 12:56.976 --> 13:02.743 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, every single day or every single day for a couple of hours, right? 13:03.264 --> 13:04.325 [SPEAKER_03]: So you do need to... 13:04.846 --> 13:15.235 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, just rid yourself of it and whatever way you can, again, and that's where that connectivity piece comes, you know, ask a friend to, you know, put the password on the phone for a little bit or know something like that. 13:15.255 --> 13:20.200 [SPEAKER_03]: So you can actually give your you brain time to breathe and space to recover. 13:20.955 --> 13:37.169 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, what are some practical changes that, you know, if someone decides they wanna quit and they do what you've said, they, you know, write it down or tell a friend, they acknowledge that this is something that is a problem for them and, you know, they wanna open up to community. 13:37.209 --> 13:39.871 [SPEAKER_00]: What are some practical changes they could make this week? 13:40.032 --> 13:43.375 [SPEAKER_00]: That would, you know, genuinely improve their chances of success. 13:44.135 --> 13:45.456 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I don't wanna get, 13:46.659 --> 13:52.146 [SPEAKER_03]: you know, deep or anything like that, but like we do really do live in a very like patterned existence, right? 13:52.206 --> 13:59.575 [SPEAKER_03]: Like most of the things that we do are in accordance to some pattern and theme, whether we are conscious of it or unconscious to it. 14:00.056 --> 14:05.743 [SPEAKER_03]: So I would say like, you know, find a piece of paper or find a journal or you know, do it on your phone or what have you, but 14:06.855 --> 14:16.026 [SPEAKER_03]: when you have an urge, because you're going to have an urge, when you have an urge, I wouldn't task you with, noticing a couple of things, where are you, right? 14:17.102 --> 14:18.223 [SPEAKER_03]: What time of the day is it? 14:18.923 --> 14:19.963 [SPEAKER_03]: What are you feeling? 14:20.163 --> 14:20.924 [SPEAKER_03]: Are you hungry? 14:20.984 --> 14:21.764 [SPEAKER_03]: Are you tired? 14:22.945 --> 14:25.906 [SPEAKER_03]: To try to figure out, like, okay, is this a muscle memory thing? 14:26.126 --> 14:36.531 [SPEAKER_03]: I know a lot of guys who get an urge to look at porn when they pass the second stoplight, you know, going home, right, from work, right? 14:36.551 --> 14:37.811 [SPEAKER_03]: Because it's that muscle memory. 14:38.171 --> 14:41.253 [SPEAKER_03]: They're like, oh, I got an urge here one day so I'm gonna keep on getting nurtures again. 14:41.613 --> 14:43.854 [SPEAKER_03]: So it's again, like, keep track of, 14:44.574 --> 14:56.178 [SPEAKER_03]: both those like behavior role and those mental cues, so that you can begin to formulate, like I said, what are the themes and patterns of this? 14:56.799 --> 15:05.082 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's funny, I think I don't hear a lot of people say what I'm about to say, but I have personally seen it work, is, 15:07.179 --> 15:25.079 [SPEAKER_03]: stay what the search would be right again like give it life and I won't like you know for the yeah I won't you know say anything here but it's like say it out loud because it makes you like less excited so like it it allows you to kind of see in a different light that 15:25.700 --> 15:44.271 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, what I'm about to do is actually something that I don't necessarily want to do and what reminded me of that was saying out loud the search I was I was going to queue up in my computer in my phone if that makes sense by making sense about getting into you know all that explicit details there. 15:44.892 --> 15:45.612 [SPEAKER_00]: No, absolutely. 15:45.652 --> 15:49.033 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think, you know, it's always great for people to have those practical tips. 15:49.073 --> 15:57.696 [SPEAKER_00]: We've spoken a little bit about how will power alone isn't going to necessarily be for everyone, if not for most people. 15:58.176 --> 16:04.318 [SPEAKER_00]: And we've talking a little bit about how community support, how breaking down some of the shame and stigma around this can help. 16:04.358 --> 16:10.360 [SPEAKER_00]: So I want to talk a little bit about your work with our friends and also sponsors of this podcast Relay. 16:12.000 --> 16:16.982 [SPEAKER_00]: For any of our listeners who haven't heard about Relay yet, Relay is an incredible tool. 16:17.082 --> 16:23.163 [SPEAKER_00]: It's built around connection and accountability and helping people find that lasting freedom from pornography. 16:23.743 --> 16:29.845 [SPEAKER_00]: From what you've seen firsthand, what makes Relay different from other tools that are available. 16:30.325 --> 16:34.666 [SPEAKER_00]: And how have you seen it help people experience recovery? 16:34.787 --> 16:36.307 [SPEAKER_00]: That is actually sustainable. 16:36.647 --> 16:37.668 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no, absolutely. 16:37.888 --> 16:40.930 [SPEAKER_03]: Again, I think it always, it's always going to go back to the root work. 16:41.470 --> 16:47.314 [SPEAKER_03]: What we have done and what we do for users of relay, it's been amazing, right? 16:47.334 --> 16:49.075 [SPEAKER_03]: Like just the data we give them. 16:49.195 --> 16:56.019 [SPEAKER_03]: If they, if you are active in the relay app, I can almost guarantee that you will 16:56.940 --> 17:16.393 [SPEAKER_03]: begin to unravel this huge onion that is your you know your porn addiction or your compulsive you know porn behaviors you begin to see what is the reason right oh I look at porn for three hours every Tuesday first Tuesday of the month why oh because the car payments do then and I can't necessarily afford it 17:17.113 --> 17:29.746 [SPEAKER_03]: So, it's that root work and also just our great, you know, community feature, our great team feature, the fact that we situate both men and women into these very supportive teams. 17:30.547 --> 17:37.795 [SPEAKER_03]: I really don't believe that there's another product out there like us and we have, you know, the testimonials to show that we are doing good work. 17:38.457 --> 17:40.199 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and these are virtual groups, right? 17:40.940 --> 17:55.417 [SPEAKER_00]: I think sometimes the idea of a group can be intimidating for someone who thinks like, I don't, you know, live near the people who or I don't want to talk to my neighbors about this or tell us a little bit about how how this functions, how this group feature functions. 17:55.835 --> 17:58.417 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no, absolutely, everything's housed in the app. 17:58.597 --> 18:02.341 [SPEAKER_03]: So like everything is very safe, very secure, housed within the app. 18:02.381 --> 18:05.363 [SPEAKER_03]: It's all virtual as you pointed out, Natalie. 18:05.703 --> 18:07.425 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, we do that for a couple of reasons. 18:07.445 --> 18:15.972 [SPEAKER_03]: I would say like the underlying philosophy that is because if you can access porn on your phone in 10 seconds, you should also be able to access recovery on your phone in 10 seconds, right? 18:16.854 --> 18:18.695 [SPEAKER_03]: And especially even today, right? 18:18.735 --> 18:29.201 [SPEAKER_03]: Like in our culture, you know, love it or hate it, you know, where texting is very popular, or just obviously being on your phone is just a greater part of your life. 18:29.682 --> 18:36.165 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, of course, you know, if I'm having an urge at 11 o'clock at night, I can text my team about this. 18:36.205 --> 18:39.307 [SPEAKER_03]: I can throw up a red flag, and my team can come to me for support. 18:39.507 --> 18:41.228 [SPEAKER_03]: I wouldn't necessarily be able to do that, right? 18:41.248 --> 18:43.510 [SPEAKER_03]: It's gonna be a little more difficult to maybe like call someone at, 18:44.465 --> 18:47.329 [SPEAKER_03]: 1130, you know, for them to be up. 18:47.349 --> 18:59.446 [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, the fact that, you know, we're we're aggregating individuals into groups across different time zones more than likely someone is going to be able to respond to your call for help. 19:00.132 --> 19:00.332 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 19:00.812 --> 19:14.576 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, for our listeners, I'm sure anyone who listens frequently has heard lots about relay because it is truly something that we are so glad exists and we've heard wonderful things about it from those that we know who have utilized this resource. 19:14.616 --> 19:20.678 [SPEAKER_00]: So I would encourage any of our listeners who are interested to check it out and we'll continue to talk a little bit more about it throughout this podcast. 19:20.778 --> 19:33.161 [SPEAKER_00]: But for anyone who maybe is using really, or isn't using really, can you tell us how someone can identify what is actually behind a trigger or what is actually triggering their pornography news? 19:33.201 --> 19:43.624 [SPEAKER_00]: You kind of mentioned a second ago, okay, they noticed they have an urge at this time at night and you took it one step further to say, oh, and it's because this bill is due and I can't afford it and that's stressful. 19:43.864 --> 19:48.565 [SPEAKER_00]: How can someone start to identify those kind of connections to triggers they're having? 19:50.035 --> 19:53.179 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, that's a, that's a great question. 19:53.239 --> 19:54.881 [SPEAKER_03]: It's a difficult question to answer, right? 19:54.901 --> 20:07.378 [SPEAKER_03]: Because it's really, I, how I'm perceiving this is really like the underlying element of this question is like consciousness, like you need like a love consciousness in order to do this, which is, 20:09.489 --> 20:10.370 [SPEAKER_03]: that's a difficult meaning. 20:10.571 --> 20:15.557 [SPEAKER_03]: I know a lot of people that are addicted to porn that are necessarily cutters floating through life, right? 20:15.577 --> 20:20.142 [SPEAKER_03]: Because they're just kind of on their, they're on their own, they're doing their own thing, necessarily. 20:20.162 --> 20:20.482 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know. 20:20.903 --> 20:24.347 [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, no consciousness really comes down to that. 20:24.387 --> 20:29.113 [SPEAKER_03]: So I think the question is, like, how can you be more conscious about any behaviors that you're, 20:29.674 --> 20:30.795 [SPEAKER_03]: engaging in, right? 20:30.975 --> 20:44.343 [SPEAKER_03]: We really do, I think, exist in a really peculiar moment right now where a lot of what we do is just very, uh, I won't even call it spontaneous, but it's without thought, right? 20:44.363 --> 20:51.248 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, how many times I literally before this episode, uh, I think I like when I'm ESPN like three times just because I 20:51.788 --> 20:59.259 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know just because right and it's like why was I doing that right so I think if you can like there is some practice that you can do it's like stuff like that Like why are you going on yet? 20:59.299 --> 21:02.424 [SPEAKER_03]: Why are you going on your ESPN app just like for times for no reason? 21:03.310 --> 21:05.631 [SPEAKER_03]: you know, why are you bringing your phone to the bathroom? 21:05.931 --> 21:06.372 [SPEAKER_03]: Right? 21:07.392 --> 21:08.853 [SPEAKER_03]: Why are you doing these things? 21:08.933 --> 21:13.295 [SPEAKER_03]: Why do you have this relationship with technology that you currently have? 21:13.675 --> 21:17.217 [SPEAKER_03]: So I would say even like practicing those principles, right? 21:17.537 --> 21:20.399 [SPEAKER_03]: For example, it's like again, I have no social media. 21:21.840 --> 21:23.981 [SPEAKER_03]: It's good for my recovery and it's 21:24.641 --> 21:29.124 [SPEAKER_03]: what I need to do, but I'm still scrolling my email like I would scroll Instagram. 21:29.164 --> 21:30.504 [SPEAKER_03]: That's weird, right? 21:30.645 --> 21:31.985 [SPEAKER_03]: I swear to God, I actually do that. 21:32.005 --> 21:32.606 [SPEAKER_03]: That's weird. 21:32.986 --> 21:33.226 [SPEAKER_03]: Right? 21:33.266 --> 21:40.230 [SPEAKER_03]: So it's again, how can you gain greater consciousness to your relationship with technology? 21:40.250 --> 21:41.251 [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's a big key. 21:41.351 --> 21:41.751 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 21:41.851 --> 21:44.132 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think, yeah, it's so important to know. 21:44.192 --> 21:44.833 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not just 21:45.573 --> 21:59.946 [SPEAKER_00]: assessing your behaviors with pornography specifically, or your coping mechanisms, that lead you to pornography, specifically, but it's starting to kind of take an inventory of all of your behaviors, broadly, starting to track your habits and patterns. 22:00.586 --> 22:15.964 [SPEAKER_00]: when you do feel an emotion how are you responding to it and having that consciousness about that, which I think for so many people, that can really start when you decide to make a change with regard to your relationship to pornography or its influence in your life. 22:16.424 --> 22:26.133 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think sometimes we get so stuck on this small piece of what we're focused on, you know, that if I tell you not to think about a pink elephant, what are you thinking about a pink elephant? 22:26.153 --> 22:33.840 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's focusing instead of focusing solely on that pornography piece, start to say, okay, well, this is a behavioral, a compulsive behavior. 22:34.020 --> 22:35.201 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's look at my other behavior. 22:35.241 --> 22:40.686 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's look at my other compulsive behaviors and assessing that, which I think is so important to remind people 22:42.688 --> 22:49.451 [SPEAKER_00]: How do you help prepare people, you know, for these difficult moments instead of simply reacting to them? 22:49.551 --> 22:59.556 [SPEAKER_00]: How do we set people up for success to be prepared when we get to these urges and we get to these triggers rather than just being in a position to always react to them? 23:00.197 --> 23:00.757 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 23:01.962 --> 23:12.569 [SPEAKER_03]: No, there is a very, you know, I was talking about like all like the different billion dollar companies that you're fighting against, you know, I don't think looking at pornography is natural. 23:12.929 --> 23:22.316 [SPEAKER_03]: I just want to make that very clear, but you are also, you know, in some way battling against, you know, biological instinct that is also ingrained in all of us, right? 23:22.776 --> 23:23.136 [SPEAKER_03]: So, 23:24.617 --> 23:32.440 [SPEAKER_03]: I think, you know, I would say, you know, you have to calm down and you cannot think of yourself as, you know, a disgusting individual. 23:32.460 --> 23:37.943 [SPEAKER_03]: You, I'm some depraved, disgusting, cretin' because I've had this urge against, like, no. 23:39.527 --> 23:46.494 [SPEAKER_03]: You are someone who has been conditioned, regardless if you did yourself, right? 23:46.514 --> 23:48.636 [SPEAKER_03]: You still have been conditioned to want to look at this. 23:49.557 --> 23:52.620 [SPEAKER_03]: And you are still a dignified individual. 23:52.640 --> 23:55.163 [SPEAKER_03]: All right, so I would say like you need to cut that out. 23:55.343 --> 23:56.764 [SPEAKER_03]: You're not a creep and you're not. 23:57.895 --> 24:01.337 [SPEAKER_03]: a monster you're just an individual who's dealing with something, right? 24:02.398 --> 24:04.279 [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, that's the advice that I would give. 24:04.359 --> 24:08.402 [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's the best way to, again, you really want to get rid of the shame piece. 24:08.522 --> 24:10.543 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think the shame in the guilt are two different things. 24:10.803 --> 24:16.367 [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's totally fine to actually to feel guilty about you're still not an absolute monster, right? 24:16.447 --> 24:20.309 [SPEAKER_03]: Like you're still not a complete, you know, disgusting individual. 24:21.130 --> 24:22.490 [SPEAKER_03]: You have dignity still. 24:22.791 --> 24:23.031 [SPEAKER_03]: So it's 24:23.511 --> 24:45.013 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a very nuanced conversation that I won't get into for the, you know, sake of time right now, but yeah, it's that line of thinking again, if that makes sense, like guilt can be a healthy motivator, but shame, that says, you know, I am bad versus guilt that says I did something unhealthy or whatever, it's, it sets you up in a different spot for your recovery if you're having no. 24:45.353 --> 24:46.074 [SPEAKER_00]: beliefs about yourself. 24:46.094 --> 24:47.935 [SPEAKER_00]: So breaking down that shame is so important. 24:48.535 --> 24:57.722 [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes, you know, for people, the shame comes from saying, okay, I'm going to quit and then having a slip-up or a relapse. 24:58.122 --> 25:06.568 [SPEAKER_00]: For many people who will quit, you know, for a few days or a few weeks, it's so common, right, to find themselves back in this pattern. 25:08.050 --> 25:11.052 [SPEAKER_00]: It's probably extremely rare for someone to say, I'm 25:14.314 --> 25:14.895 [SPEAKER_00]: look at it again. 25:15.795 --> 25:21.260 [SPEAKER_00]: While that's certainly the goal eventually for everyone, can you talk to us about relapse? 25:21.381 --> 25:23.583 [SPEAKER_00]: Is it always a sign that someone's back at square one? 25:23.983 --> 25:25.684 [SPEAKER_00]: What would you tell someone who's in that position? 25:26.165 --> 25:33.131 [SPEAKER_03]: I think a relapse actually is, and we even see this at relapse. 25:33.151 --> 25:34.472 [SPEAKER_03]: What can you learn from the relapse? 25:34.753 --> 25:36.474 [SPEAKER_03]: That's actually what you have to do. 25:37.075 --> 25:39.017 [SPEAKER_03]: If you have a relapse and 25:40.539 --> 25:46.542 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, it opens the floodgates again to, you know, you're, you're, like, essentially dinging porn all the time. 25:46.562 --> 25:49.243 [SPEAKER_03]: I would say, okay, well, then we really need to stop and actually think about this. 25:49.283 --> 25:54.066 [SPEAKER_03]: But if you have a relapse and going back to that consciousness, right? 25:54.106 --> 25:57.968 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, if you have a relapse and you can actually be conscious, again, of why you had it, 25:58.608 --> 26:04.492 [SPEAKER_03]: It could actually be in some weird, twisted way, better for your recovery than not. 26:04.712 --> 26:07.174 [SPEAKER_03]: Because you're learning something about yourself, right? 26:07.254 --> 26:10.796 [SPEAKER_03]: When you fall like you are learning about, you know, what part of the boat? 26:10.816 --> 26:12.337 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, maybe my knees are weak, right? 26:12.418 --> 26:13.658 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, you know, it was something, right? 26:13.939 --> 26:20.223 [SPEAKER_03]: So when you had that relapse, you learned something about where you're at, and you're recovery, and where you're at with yourself, where your mind is. 26:20.823 --> 26:25.707 [SPEAKER_03]: So again, it's very nuanced, but I do think it actually could be helpful. 26:26.407 --> 26:26.607 [SPEAKER_00]: right? 26:27.148 --> 26:44.623 [SPEAKER_00]: Because what tends to keep people stuck after relapse is often that shame or I can never overcome this or you know what I'm not sure what other things you have heard tell us about what tends to keep people stuck versus being able to say okay let me evaluate what just happened to take this information learned from it and move forward. 26:45.184 --> 26:49.227 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah let's just say like I don't know let's 26:51.228 --> 26:56.253 [SPEAKER_03]: you start looking at pornography when you're 12 and you just now decide to seriously do something about it. 26:57.615 --> 26:58.596 [SPEAKER_03]: Let's say 27, right? 26:58.756 --> 27:00.298 [SPEAKER_03]: So that's a lot. 27:00.418 --> 27:02.120 [SPEAKER_03]: That's a decade plus, right? 27:02.140 --> 27:05.583 [SPEAKER_03]: So then I see a guy and it's been like five weeks. 27:06.304 --> 27:10.146 [SPEAKER_03]: And he's relapsed three times, and it's like, oh, man, like, I'm never going to be able. 27:10.206 --> 27:12.327 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm never going to be able to like, figure this out. 27:12.427 --> 27:14.028 [SPEAKER_03]: And I have to be like, you did slow your role. 27:14.048 --> 27:19.791 [SPEAKER_03]: You've been like looking at porn for like 15 years, and like you just like not been looking at porn for five weeks. 27:19.811 --> 27:23.193 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, just even like measure that, like it's just not realistic, necessarily. 27:23.593 --> 27:25.014 [SPEAKER_03]: Not saying that it's a one for one. 27:25.034 --> 27:31.837 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not saying that it's going to take 15 years to recover if you've been looking at it for 15 years, but I do, you know, you need to give yourself some grace. 27:32.418 --> 27:34.459 [SPEAKER_03]: You do need to be kind to yourself, right? 27:35.059 --> 27:43.281 [SPEAKER_03]: And frankly, like you are doing something that most people don't actually, as of right now, statistically do, which is try to recover from this. 27:43.821 --> 27:47.662 [SPEAKER_03]: So you are on like this heroes journey, if you will, right? 27:47.762 --> 27:55.844 [SPEAKER_03]: And part of that heroes journey is, you know, you fall and you get up and there's always that sage individual to help you with that, right? 27:57.404 --> 28:01.385 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not the sage individual, more so like those, again, I go back to those like accountability groups, 28:04.746 --> 28:17.057 [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, you know, I think that's a big piece is that people just think that there's a magic till or magic timeline to recovery and that's just never the case. 28:17.567 --> 28:17.867 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 28:18.788 --> 28:27.534 [SPEAKER_00]: How are some ways, mentioned giving yourself some grace and kind of referencing the time you've been stuck in this habit versus the time you've been in recovery? 28:28.054 --> 28:34.598 [SPEAKER_00]: What are some ways that someone trying to quit porn can measure their progress beyond simply counting days or streaks? 28:34.658 --> 28:41.583 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a place so many people find themselves as just counting days or streaks and not being able to see the progress beyond that. 28:41.883 --> 28:43.924 [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely, and I, you know, I just want to be clear. 28:43.944 --> 28:45.225 [SPEAKER_03]: I had nothing wrong with streaks. 28:45.505 --> 28:46.686 [SPEAKER_03]: I was never a streak guy. 28:46.706 --> 28:50.329 [SPEAKER_03]: I more power to the individuals that get power from the streaks, right? 28:50.349 --> 28:56.833 [SPEAKER_03]: But I find people like fall in love with the streaks and then it's the streaks and that could actually be more, you know, hurtful for them. 28:57.793 --> 28:59.094 [SPEAKER_03]: But it's an answer to your question. 28:59.194 --> 29:04.418 [SPEAKER_03]: I would say, let's go back to that emotion and discussion that we were having a little bit of go. 29:06.103 --> 29:20.277 [SPEAKER_03]: When you have that natural inclination, again, that every person has, at every single day, probably other lives, when that natural inclination of boredom comes up, or you get anxious about something, right? 29:21.218 --> 29:23.500 [SPEAKER_03]: Someone's calling your phone that you don't know, right? 29:23.520 --> 29:25.362 [SPEAKER_03]: It's a random number, and you get anxious about it. 29:26.263 --> 29:29.025 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, you know, are you, 29:31.525 --> 29:36.510 [SPEAKER_03]: Are you are you still thinking about immediately looking at porn right is porn the first thought? 29:37.090 --> 29:41.294 [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's a great measure Maybe the put maybe porn's like the second or third thought. 29:41.354 --> 29:41.774 [SPEAKER_03]: Well great. 29:42.094 --> 29:42.795 [SPEAKER_03]: Congratulations. 29:42.815 --> 29:44.296 [SPEAKER_03]: At least it's not the first thought anymore, right? 29:44.636 --> 29:47.099 [SPEAKER_03]: So that is a great way to track development. 29:47.479 --> 29:54.905 [SPEAKER_03]: Again, if you are not immediately associating pornography with every distressing emotion that you feel at any point in the day. 29:55.065 --> 29:56.567 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I think you're making great progress 29:57.377 --> 29:57.617 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 29:57.997 --> 30:05.639 [SPEAKER_00]: And even a step before that is if maybe someone is associating pornography still with those emotions, but they're not going directly to consuming it. 30:05.880 --> 30:07.460 [SPEAKER_00]: That also is progress, right? 30:07.560 --> 30:08.500 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, that's still there. 30:08.540 --> 30:15.162 [SPEAKER_00]: That's still something I'm noticing now, though, when I previously would have gone and given in right to that urge, where is now I'm noticing it? 30:15.242 --> 30:17.243 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm I'm going to choose something else. 30:17.263 --> 30:19.684 [SPEAKER_00]: That's also a great way to look at progress. 30:20.124 --> 30:20.744 [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely. 30:20.784 --> 30:21.064 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, 30:24.645 --> 30:33.872 [SPEAKER_03]: a couple of questions go, that's another thing, it's like, you got to give yourself some grace just because you think about looking at porn, that's completely different than actually looking at porn. 30:34.313 --> 30:38.376 [SPEAKER_03]: And you have to be able to distinguish that and you have to actually identify that as a win. 30:38.796 --> 30:50.925 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, just because you think of it doesn't mean that you're actually like and you don't linger on it, especially doesn't mean that you're not, that's totally different than actually going to it and looking at it. 30:50.965 --> 30:52.847 [SPEAKER_03]: And again, I think that's a serious one. 30:53.486 --> 30:54.186 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely. 30:55.007 --> 31:04.612 [SPEAKER_00]: Speaking about those emotions, so we've talked about how many people use porn to cope with stress or loneliness or anxiety or other difficult emotions. 31:05.132 --> 31:14.817 [SPEAKER_00]: We've kind of talked about getting out of an environment where you can easily consume porn and we've talked about noticing your triggers and noticing your behaviors. 31:15.237 --> 31:22.401 [SPEAKER_00]: How do we get to that deeper layer of saying, okay, I've now aware that these are the emotions that I'm experiencing, 31:22.821 --> 31:31.488 [SPEAKER_00]: that are leading me to porn and how do we replace the coping mechanism or the coping strategy of consuming pornography with a healthier ones? 31:32.413 --> 31:39.475 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and yeah, healthier ones sometimes don't even actually look as, like, look, actually as healthier ones. 31:39.495 --> 31:54.498 [SPEAKER_03]: I'll give an example, you know, one, one thing that I even learned in my clinical work, you know, both, you know, when I was in school and then actually practice in counseling, at some point you do have to let the anxiety just like wash over you. 31:54.658 --> 31:58.683 [SPEAKER_03]: Now, to hear that, like it's like a late person, you're just like, no, that's actually the opposite of what I should be doing. 31:58.703 --> 32:06.513 [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, no, no, no, it's actually probably what you should be doing is you should actually just let that wave anxiety literally roll over you could going to pass, right? 32:06.994 --> 32:08.336 [SPEAKER_03]: Kind of like that with urge as well. 32:08.676 --> 32:11.139 [SPEAKER_03]: If you let it right out, it's going to pass. 32:13.242 --> 32:20.288 [SPEAKER_03]: But again, I want to focus on that main part of your question, it's okay for your brain to be conditioned to things. 32:20.848 --> 32:21.929 [SPEAKER_03]: That is actually okay. 32:22.330 --> 32:33.759 [SPEAKER_03]: So if your brain can get conditioned to every time that you, I don't know, like you get yelled at by your boss and your inclination now is that I'm going to go talk to my spouse. 32:33.979 --> 32:34.220 [SPEAKER_03]: Great. 32:34.880 --> 32:36.002 [SPEAKER_03]: Let's condition the heck out of that. 32:36.022 --> 32:36.923 [SPEAKER_03]: That's amazing, right? 32:36.943 --> 32:38.826 [SPEAKER_03]: Like that's that's that's perfect, right? 32:38.846 --> 32:39.707 [SPEAKER_03]: Because again, what does it do? 32:39.727 --> 32:40.848 [SPEAKER_03]: It gets you out of isolation. 32:40.868 --> 32:42.571 [SPEAKER_03]: It gets you to connectivity. 32:43.051 --> 32:46.897 [SPEAKER_03]: So I think it's, you know, being able to really identify. 32:48.425 --> 32:56.570 [SPEAKER_03]: What are the things that aren't porn, that at the same time aren't destructive to you as well? 32:56.710 --> 33:01.794 [SPEAKER_03]: What are the things that even make you feel to percent better in the moment by doing it? 33:01.874 --> 33:05.656 [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of people are just like, oh, it needs to feel, I need to feel amazing. 33:05.696 --> 33:08.758 [SPEAKER_03]: I need to like the distress and emotion to totally be gone. 33:08.778 --> 33:11.200 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, shoot for 2%, right? 33:11.220 --> 33:13.321 [SPEAKER_03]: Because at least 2% you're better than where you were. 33:13.941 --> 33:16.563 [SPEAKER_03]: So if that's a walk, if that's a conversation, 33:18.304 --> 33:25.830 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, even in the early stages, even if that is, again, it's nuanced, but even if it is like, you know, going on ESPN, right. 33:26.490 --> 33:30.793 [SPEAKER_03]: Again, if you're in the early stages, it's better than, you know, the alternative, right. 33:31.214 --> 33:37.539 [SPEAKER_03]: So it's how can you identify whether things that get that make you two percent better and really like 33:43.752 --> 33:44.532 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's well said. 33:45.033 --> 33:51.576 [SPEAKER_00]: If someone's partner knows that they're trying to quit, what kinds of support from a partner are actually helpful? 33:52.417 --> 34:03.403 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, when I know the answer to that, I will let you know, because it is a joke around because it is very difficult. 34:03.823 --> 34:11.268 [SPEAKER_03]: It is, I mean, I'm even thinking, again, I'm not going to expose my personal laundry here, but I work in this space, like I literally work for a point of fiction or cut right up my wife. 34:11.948 --> 34:16.911 [SPEAKER_03]: is obviously still sensitive about my, you know, recovery journey, right? 34:17.352 --> 34:20.173 [SPEAKER_03]: Because the betrayal is so deep, right? 34:20.194 --> 34:26.878 [SPEAKER_03]: And every individual is obviously different, but I would say commonality is that the betrayal is so deep, it's very difficult. 34:27.879 --> 34:35.944 [SPEAKER_03]: Some individuals might be a little more reticent to hear about their spouses or their partners recovery because it might 34:39.543 --> 35:05.361 [SPEAKER_03]: So I guess, all the answer this question by not directly answering it, and I will say, both, I would say, you know, if you're a partner, I think at first, you know, you need to take care of yourself, because unless you are taking care of yourself, you are not in a, you're really not going to be in a position to be like receptive to, you know, your partner who you feel betrayed by, 35:06.901 --> 35:09.384 [SPEAKER_03]: But again, I always go, I'll always go back to dialogue. 35:09.584 --> 35:13.649 [SPEAKER_03]: I think both parties need to be able to dialogue with each other honest, dialogue. 35:13.849 --> 35:20.997 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think, and I'll use the dichotomy between the man and the woman just because it's easier for me to discuss. 35:21.578 --> 35:27.184 [SPEAKER_03]: That's like, yeah, if you're wife, you're girlfriend, your fiance comes to you and she is upset about this. 35:28.105 --> 35:54.241 [SPEAKER_03]: you should probably just like listen to it and that be defensive and just kind of take it on the chin and even if you don't think she's correct or even if you know you she or she's she's swelling a bunch of negative emotions in you I think listening and just having that wonder wondering why wondering what's making my partner respond this way hearing them I think that is very powerful. 35:54.992 --> 35:55.272 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 35:55.733 --> 36:03.299 [SPEAKER_00]: And just a reminder for, you know, both individuals involved, there's always support available for both sides. 36:03.379 --> 36:06.001 [SPEAKER_00]: So the therapy can be helpful individually. 36:06.041 --> 36:16.189 [SPEAKER_00]: The therapy together is something that if you're not in a place to have that dialogue in a way that's productive and helpful for both parties can be a great tool for individuals together. 36:16.729 --> 36:19.251 [SPEAKER_00]: But a big piece of this is also rebuilding trust. 36:19.291 --> 36:23.094 [SPEAKER_00]: So how can someone begin rebuilding trust after pornography has damaged a 36:24.368 --> 36:28.532 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no, absolutely, a few different like pretty common ways. 36:29.373 --> 36:39.483 [SPEAKER_03]: It is, you know, sometimes it is going to therapy or talking about this or, you know, scheduling time to, you know, maintain some type of conversation about this. 36:39.904 --> 36:42.126 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the first part is like, don't lie. 36:43.021 --> 36:53.084 [SPEAKER_03]: about anything for, you know, because anything that you are lying about is going to be understood as you're still a liar. 36:53.104 --> 36:56.365 [SPEAKER_03]: And now you're looking at porn. 36:56.525 --> 37:03.287 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's like you could be like, oh, no, I went out and I bought milk and then you come home and then, you know, they realize you didn't buy milk. 37:03.347 --> 37:04.027 [SPEAKER_03]: Why did you lie? 37:04.207 --> 37:05.508 [SPEAKER_03]: You lied because you're still a different 37:09.622 --> 37:10.823 [SPEAKER_03]: is never good. 37:11.203 --> 37:17.126 [SPEAKER_03]: So I would say, again, the dialogue don't lie, you know, you have to tell the truth. 37:17.166 --> 37:21.268 [SPEAKER_03]: And then I think for like in the beginning stages, like, yes, like accountability is key. 37:21.708 --> 37:32.354 [SPEAKER_03]: I think there's nothing wrong with showing your partner, you know, your phone or having some type of like software on your device or some type of accountability system. 37:37.877 --> 37:40.701 [SPEAKER_03]: some type of trust, I think is key. 37:41.181 --> 37:55.600 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm always going to believe though that beyond accountability software, the best type of trust is built in intimacy and intimacy is only cultivated through honesty and dialogue. 37:56.222 --> 38:20.240 [SPEAKER_00]: right and you know it sounds like what you're saying is for someone to be able to rebuild that trust within a relationship they have to really be committed to the path of recovery to mean even if there are slip ups along the way or you know relapses to be willing to be honest about those things and everything else and to be willing to be vulnerable and rebuilding that trust 38:24.823 --> 38:28.264 [SPEAKER_00]: in a relationship to have that intimacy, to have that safety and that trust. 38:29.485 --> 38:42.069 [SPEAKER_00]: What's something you've seen in your clients that really gives you hope when so often individuals wanting to put foreign who try and and in their mind they fail because they say I'm going to quit and then they can't and I'm going to quit and then I can't. 38:43.009 --> 38:50.291 [SPEAKER_00]: What gives you hope that you could also share with them to know that this is absolutely something that individuals can recover from. 38:53.597 --> 38:59.240 [SPEAKER_03]: This is not, this isn't gonna be like anything like, you know, inspiring necessarily, but it's inspiring for me. 38:59.520 --> 39:01.220 [SPEAKER_03]: It's the fact they keep on showing up. 39:02.181 --> 39:07.663 [SPEAKER_03]: If I have a guy who, you know, was like, hey, you know, two weeks ago, looked at porn. 39:08.104 --> 39:11.045 [SPEAKER_03]: Comes in the next week, looked at porn, comes in the, you got. 39:12.473 --> 39:22.006 [SPEAKER_03]: It takes actually a lot of gusto, it takes a lot of courage to just keep on going back to tell a guy right that like, oh hey, I actually looked at point again. 39:22.367 --> 39:28.135 [SPEAKER_03]: So the fact that you continuously come back, I think is actually, 39:29.165 --> 39:46.180 [SPEAKER_03]: So inspiring, and it gives me a lot of hope, and I think it actually speaks to just the condition that we as humans face, which is, you know, we're on this constant path of falling and getting back up, and I think that's actually the beautiful thing about it. 39:46.280 --> 39:49.563 [SPEAKER_03]: That's just obviously inspiring thing about humanity, right? 39:49.583 --> 39:51.084 [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, it's that. 39:51.424 --> 39:52.465 [SPEAKER_03]: And then obviously the 39:55.528 --> 40:19.762 [SPEAKER_03]: you know me and my you know partner celebrated x anniversary we really made it through like that that also gives me a tremendous amount of hope and encouragement to to actually see how I don't know like they've used porn to also like deal with other things in their lives I again I've worked with a lot of guys right now big thing is you know zining and you know using your 40:22.930 --> 40:33.055 [SPEAKER_03]: I've seen a lot of guys use those same principles that they have used to gain control over their corn addiction to actually gain control. 40:33.075 --> 40:36.396 [SPEAKER_03]: Another type of, you know, compulsive behavior. 40:36.536 --> 40:38.537 [SPEAKER_03]: Again, I think something like that is a little soon as wiring. 40:39.315 --> 41:01.133 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well said, we often hear from individuals who are parents, who are struggling themselves with pornography and they're not sure, you know, how to approach the topic that their kids, they think they're not qualified because it is something they struggled with or struggle with presently or they're worried that their kids will think of them differently. 41:01.153 --> 41:03.355 [SPEAKER_00]: How what advice would 41:06.638 --> 41:12.683 [SPEAKER_00]: this topic with their kids knowing that kids need education about this, knowing that kids safe guards around this. 41:12.723 --> 41:13.784 [SPEAKER_00]: What advice would you give them? 41:13.944 --> 41:14.725 [SPEAKER_03]: No, absolutely. 41:14.745 --> 41:15.666 [SPEAKER_03]: There's a couple of different ways. 41:15.826 --> 41:18.468 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, honestly, which is the best weather. 41:18.628 --> 41:22.171 [SPEAKER_03]: And what I say, this is the best, I mean, I don't know if like telling your kid. 41:22.231 --> 41:23.532 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if like telling like you're, you're, 41:24.513 --> 41:26.494 [SPEAKER_03]: Let's just say like 11 12 13 year old. 41:26.534 --> 41:28.035 [SPEAKER_03]: I like you have a point of addiction. 41:28.375 --> 41:44.904 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if that's the case honestly God I wouldn't I that wouldn't be the approach that I attended right so I think there's also something said to the whole you know Solomon's paradox which is you don't necessarily he like in a situation like this You don't necessarily Always have to be perfect in order to give like good advice, right? 41:44.984 --> 41:46.525 [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's just like a key principle 41:46.985 --> 41:59.674 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, obviously this is a very important talk about with your kids and I think kids can be a great motivating factor for why you want to, you know, get rid of your, uh, you're in a church and rid yourself of of this, you know, compulsive behavior. 42:00.275 --> 42:01.376 [SPEAKER_03]: Because they deserve a good dad. 42:01.496 --> 42:02.296 [SPEAKER_03]: They deserve a good mom. 42:02.416 --> 42:03.317 [SPEAKER_03]: You're still a good dad. 42:03.337 --> 42:03.817 [SPEAKER_03]: Let me say this. 42:03.837 --> 42:05.298 [SPEAKER_03]: You're still a good dad and you're a good mom. 42:05.399 --> 42:07.400 [SPEAKER_03]: Even if you are looking at pornography, right? 42:07.920 --> 42:10.742 [SPEAKER_03]: However, um, when you think of 42:12.499 --> 42:22.510 [SPEAKER_03]: thinking of like the best version of my father, that's a father who is present, that's a father who is conscious to like what the needs of his kids are. 42:22.730 --> 42:34.522 [SPEAKER_03]: So like when you have something all consuming in your mind like pornography, it does, even if it's a couple percentage points, it still takes you away from your family and from the heartbeat of the familial culture. 42:35.595 --> 42:38.499 [SPEAKER_03]: I, so that's one part of what I want to say. 42:38.519 --> 42:40.821 [SPEAKER_03]: The other part is, no, totally like talk to your kids. 42:40.942 --> 42:42.203 [SPEAKER_03]: I think you should. 42:42.363 --> 42:49.392 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, my wife are like probably to be honest, you like a little too sensitive to content. 42:51.155 --> 43:01.020 [SPEAKER_03]: because, again, of my story, if you're a person living today in year 34, you've experienced some type of like pornographic, you know, imagery in your life. 43:01.420 --> 43:03.761 [SPEAKER_03]: But regardless, I do think it's important to talk to your kids. 43:03.921 --> 43:05.402 [SPEAKER_03]: I do think, honestly, 43:06.842 --> 43:30.555 [SPEAKER_03]: side towards being like the weird parent comparing and not being the weird I would rather be the weird parent than the cool parent right because I don't want my you know Sons and daughters, um, you know sexualized that's such an early age right to any kind to anything and I think If your kids have questions about it to find your you know your kids probably better than than most people right you're by the nature of the your kids. 43:30.775 --> 43:33.936 [SPEAKER_03]: So You'll be able to to handle these conversations. 43:33.976 --> 43:34.997 [SPEAKER_03]: I think well 43:36.354 --> 43:36.954 [SPEAKER_03]: a definitely thing. 43:36.974 --> 43:38.855 [SPEAKER_03]: That's why like what you guys are doing. 43:38.895 --> 43:40.115 [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's honestly huge. 43:40.295 --> 43:42.215 [SPEAKER_03]: I think even something. 43:42.335 --> 44:01.240 [SPEAKER_03]: Whatever way, if you can approach wide pornography is dangerous in whatever regard, whether it's physiological or how it's actually very degrading towards, you know, the individuals making it or, you know, whether it's like the question of, you know, sex slavery or what? 44:01.300 --> 44:01.820 [SPEAKER_03]: What have you? 44:02.200 --> 44:04.201 [SPEAKER_03]: I think any angle at a young age 44:05.122 --> 44:09.827 [SPEAKER_03]: for someone young to just say, oh, this is actually a problem in the effects of the people other than me. 44:10.047 --> 44:12.010 [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's very important in very huge. 44:12.618 --> 44:18.723 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well said, and just a reminder to parents, it's not if it's when young people are going to see this right. 44:18.743 --> 44:29.072 [SPEAKER_00]: And also a reminder to anyone who finds themselves in an addiction or compulsive habit to pornography now, you know, it really wasn't if it was when you were going to see this. 44:29.132 --> 44:37.600 [SPEAKER_00]: And if there weren't any trusted adults being to about this and you did grow up with the internet and with pornography being more accessible, affordable, available, and 44:39.841 --> 44:56.907 [SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of a reminder of some space for some compassion, some self-compassion, on the journey of navigating recovery from pornography, to note that as you've mentioned, these industries prey upon young people, they're designed to keep you coming back, so they have a customer for life, and so, 44:57.367 --> 45:00.369 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's not a small thing to struggle with. 45:00.449 --> 45:05.412 [SPEAKER_00]: It's something that this system's really have all been designed to keep people hooked in this. 45:05.572 --> 45:16.840 [SPEAKER_00]: And it takes a lot of courage, a lot of capacity and energy to be willing to take a step and say, you know what I think I want to try to live life without this. 45:16.960 --> 45:25.005 [SPEAKER_00]: And if someone listening has maybe tried to quit dozens of times and feels like they'll never change, what would you want them to hear today? 45:26.432 --> 45:29.494 [SPEAKER_03]: that from personal experience, I know that it's possible. 45:29.894 --> 45:32.155 [SPEAKER_03]: And I am not the world's most disciplined man. 45:33.836 --> 45:42.781 [SPEAKER_03]: It's a real possibility in that, you know, the clarity, the mental focus, the sense of self, 45:51.319 --> 45:55.664 [SPEAKER_03]: like legitimately incapacitated by this compulsion or by this addiction. 45:55.684 --> 46:08.859 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, that is just like really like intoxicating in and of itself like that that that you can live a life that is in all consumed by something that is degrading. 46:09.720 --> 46:10.882 [SPEAKER_03]: to both you and other people. 46:11.082 --> 46:12.203 [SPEAKER_03]: That's like intoxicating. 46:12.884 --> 46:15.888 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's something that I think everyone should pursue. 46:16.288 --> 46:27.402 [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, I mean, if you're someone who has continued and you know, you're fighting still, the fact that you are listening to this, right? 46:28.824 --> 46:30.245 [SPEAKER_03]: That's very hopeful. 46:30.285 --> 46:32.909 [SPEAKER_03]: You actually really want to do something. 46:33.810 --> 46:34.991 [SPEAKER_03]: You want to better your life. 46:35.592 --> 46:38.515 [SPEAKER_03]: So don't take that for granted. 46:39.256 --> 46:40.097 [SPEAKER_03]: Don't take that for granted. 46:40.848 --> 46:44.430 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, beautifully said, Joe, it's been so great to chat with you. 46:44.510 --> 46:47.772 [SPEAKER_00]: If any of our listeners want to try out relay, yeah. 46:48.033 --> 46:50.114 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to tell them where to go. 46:50.534 --> 46:55.857 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, great place would be go to ftnd.org slash join relay. 46:56.258 --> 46:59.159 [SPEAKER_03]: You'll be able to find our information there. 46:59.980 --> 47:02.462 [SPEAKER_03]: There's going to be clickable links and 47:03.763 --> 47:12.471 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, you'll even get a promo code where you can have a free trial to see if this is something that is right for you. 47:13.692 --> 47:17.035 [SPEAKER_00]: Joe, is there anything you wanted to share today that we haven't had a chance to speak about yet? 47:17.997 --> 47:26.939 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you know, obviously we all know that this is a very insidious and pervasive issue going on in the culture right now. 47:27.479 --> 47:40.981 [SPEAKER_03]: So I will say this if there are I'm thinking about like the young guys I'm thinking even of like just guys in general in your group chats and your friends make fun of you that, you know, you are on this journey to quit pornography. 47:42.122 --> 47:44.442 [SPEAKER_03]: Again, because that is very much my professional wheelhouse. 47:46.039 --> 47:47.740 [SPEAKER_03]: continue to be an advocate, right? 47:47.780 --> 47:54.363 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean people get inspired by other people and people will be inspired by seeing your change. 47:54.423 --> 48:03.408 [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, even if you feel embarrassed or, you know, you feel like there's not a lot of people in your corner continue to fight and continue to better your life. 48:04.481 --> 48:07.262 [SPEAKER_00]: Joe, thank you so much for joining me on Considerable for Consuming. 48:07.322 --> 48:10.164 [SPEAKER_00]: It's been so wonderful to have this conversation with you today. 48:10.184 --> 48:19.188 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to remind our listeners again, there's so much hope, there's so much help available no matter what side of this issue. 48:19.268 --> 48:20.088 [SPEAKER_00]: Find yourselves on. 48:20.408 --> 48:23.090 [SPEAKER_00]: We'll have some resources linked in the show notes. 48:23.150 --> 48:26.891 [SPEAKER_00]: And again, please remember to like and subscribe if you'd like to hear more conversations like this. 48:27.432 --> 48:27.732 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. 48:32.234 --> 48:34.936 [SPEAKER_01]: But thanks for joining us on this episode of Consider Before Consuming. 48:35.537 --> 48:38.459 [SPEAKER_01]: Consider Before Consuming is brought to you by Fight The New Drug. 48:39.000 --> 48:55.934 [SPEAKER_01]: Fight The New Drug is a non-religious and a non-legislative organization that exists to provide individuals the opportunity to make an informed decision regarding pornography by raising awareness on its harmful effects using only science, facts, and personal accounts. 48:56.474 --> 48:59.377 [SPEAKER_01]: Check out the episode notes for resources mentioned in this episode. 48:59.877 --> 49:03.401 [SPEAKER_01]: If you find this podcast helpful, consider subscribing and leaving a review. 49:03.842 --> 49:04.983 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks again for listening. 49:05.484 --> 49:07.526 [SPEAKER_01]: We invite you to increase your self-awareness. 49:07.846 --> 49:08.747 [SPEAKER_01]: Look both ways. 49:09.388 --> 49:10.469 [SPEAKER_01]: Check your blind spots. 49:10.990 --> 49:12.692 [SPEAKER_01]: And consider before consuming.