[SPEAKER_02]: Have you ever been talking to your partner explaining something that's going on and suddenly they look at you and they say you're being defensive and then you look at yourself and you're thinking No, I don't think I was being defensive.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I was just explaining what was happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: We experienced this a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: We hear this from a lot of couples.
[SPEAKER_00]: One partner says, I'm just trying to explain myself and the other partners like, no, you're being defensive.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what got us wondering, you know, what is the difference between when I'm just trying to explain something or explain myself and when I'm being defensive because in reality, they can look almost identical.
[SPEAKER_00]: because the healthiest conversations should not feel like a courtroom.
[SPEAKER_00]: They are a place where two people simply are trying to understand each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hello, all, and welcome to the relationship of innovation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Podcast where we teach, talk, process, all things.
[SPEAKER_00]: Relationship and really try to help ourselves and others build those skills we need to have thriving relationships.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am Tara Kerwin.
[SPEAKER_02]: And my name is EJ Kerwin.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this episode is really jumping right out of last episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you haven't listened to our last episode, which talks about trigger transfer, it talks about anticipatory anxiety and how like,
[SPEAKER_02]: even before we get into a conversation, we're already sort of amped up.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is like sort of the next level.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it came out of something that happened where Tara was asking me whether I had done something, and I hadn't done it yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I told her what I was doing instead.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then she automatically was like, you're being defensive.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I didn't feel like I was being defensive.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just felt like I was explaining.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it made us just really question that.
[SPEAKER_02]: between just explaining what's going on and getting into that defensive mode.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know, and they, I'm sure they feel very similar, so we're gonna help you guys break that down.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and because, like, truthfully, when I look back on that moment, like, I get confused, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm like, was I being defensive?
[SPEAKER_02]: Was I just explaining, like, why I hadn't done it yet?
[SPEAKER_02]: And maybe what we've discovered and we're going to like look at this from my side of like the person who's either defending or explaining, and then tear aside as the person who's listening to that moment, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And so maybe what we figured out, it's not about the words, it's about the goal, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: because the goal is whether you're explaining or defending to understand it instead of blame and react to it, correct?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, because the conversation should be about like understanding the moment.
[SPEAKER_02]: If we're trying to figure out if there's like are you being defensive, it should be about literally us having this open-minded approach to that moment
[SPEAKER_00]: Because two things are true, E. A, you have a history of defending.
[SPEAKER_02]: 100%.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a history of assuming you're going to defend.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I get really pissed off.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: So those, and, and so now if we break it down and try to understand each other better now, I can give you more benefit of the doubt that maybe it's not defending, but I'm just going historically, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you can start to catch yourself because you are gaining
[SPEAKER_00]: defensiveness and and because maybe we're just still in that transition in our new system that this is really important because we have to be to develop a emotional safety around this as well because we have both blamed each other a lot and been defensive and and it's a universal problem that we see with couples is this idea of like you know I'm just trying to tell you what happened
[SPEAKER_02]: and is there an element of defensiveness in here?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, maybe, but there's also an element of just trying to explain to you what's happening for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we wanna understand each of our positions in these moments, so that you out there can understand
[SPEAKER_02]: your position in these moments.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so what I'm beginning to understand is that if I'm really trying to discern between whether I'm being sort of instinctively defensive or I'm trying to explain to terror what's happening is about my motivation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And when I'm being instinctively defensive, is when I'm trying to prove that I'm not the bad guy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: That I'm not irresponsible.
[SPEAKER_02]: That I'm not lazy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: That means I'm defensive because what I'm assuming in that moment is it tears judging me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it I'm already placing myself in the courtroom.
[SPEAKER_02]: We had another incident of this like like the other night What was it like you were like closing down the house or something?
[SPEAKER_02]: And I, like, automatically went to like, well, I do that after, after our final shows over.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was, I had placed myself immediately into the courtroom.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was, instead of just seeing that you were telling me what you had done.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yeah, that's true.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was defending myself that you were prosecuting me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_02]: You were, you were saying, I'm doing this stuff because you're lazy, and you don't do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then again, I reacted like, AJ, I wasn't, I was just trying to be helpful.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can relax, like, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I, but I wasn't trying to understand you more.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was now, now I'm explaining myself to your defensiveness.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, because that's like the split here in this dynamic of defend or explain.
[SPEAKER_02]: It almost in some ways, it doesn't matter.
[SPEAKER_02]: it doesn't matter whether I'm defending myself and being defensive or if I am explaining myself because if we're going to make it through the moment we both have to approach it with we are just trying to understand each other we're not trying to prove who's right and who's wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay so how do we do that?
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's just take that example of like I came in and I was like oh I closed all the doors I locked
[SPEAKER_02]: And I instinctively say, well, I do that when the show's over.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it begins with one of us noticing that we've become activated, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is because if you tell me, if you say something like, okay, this is one of these moments where I'm feeling like you're being defensive, can we talk about whether, whether you did feel defensive in that moment or not?
[SPEAKER_00]: help me understand what's happening.
[SPEAKER_02]: Help me, that you're actually curious, that you're not prosecuting me for being defensive automatically.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because then my defensiveness, I doubled down on my defensiveness.
[SPEAKER_02]: I say, no, I'm not.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not being defensive, because it's like a cross-examination.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm on the stand.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was on the stand about not walking the house down, and now I'm on the stand about whether I'm defensive or not, and so the pressure rises, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And if one or both of us can say, because I could also be like, hey, honey,
[SPEAKER_02]: That's this is one of these moments where I don't know whether I'm being defensive or just explaining can we get curious about this together for a second.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you said something like that, I would probably stop in my shoes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to try it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so this is an interesting one.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is one that we're working through the solution with you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, I feel like this is so universal.
[SPEAKER_02]: I hear this in a couple of sessions so often, where it just like people go back and forth in the explanation or the defensive posture.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if we could stop,
[SPEAKER_02]: and recognize what's happening is that we've entered into a courtroom, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've ceased being two people who love each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: Organically present.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've ceased being curious.
[SPEAKER_02]: about what's actually happening and we're both trying to prove in a sense or guilt.
[SPEAKER_02]: Either you're trying to say I'm definitely guilty of being defensive or I'm trying to prove that I'm absolutely not being defensive, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: We're adversaries in that moment.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think like for us like we need like we need like almost a way to enable it and and I think we could say like hey I think we're in the courtroom.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah that could be good.
[SPEAKER_02]: What if so so from now on if I feel like I'm up on the stand because I'm generally the one who feels that way and if I'm going to say like terror I think I'm in the courtroom.
[SPEAKER_02]: Then that will be both of our cues to get curious to get curious about what happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and and give each other the benefit of the doubt that you're being truthful.
[SPEAKER_00]: In that moment, we'll just take it back when I was shutting down the house and everything before the show was over.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was literally doing that out of like, oh, I'll do it early so easy.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't have to.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like out of kindness.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like totally out of kindness.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I truly was like I was like oh and then I got so deflated when I came and told you and then you got defensive at us.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I do that at the end of the show and so have we been able to like in that moment?
[SPEAKER_02]: But so I did it a little bit different last night.
[SPEAKER_02]: where I said, thank you for, thank you for doing that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I also want to let you know that you don't have to do that, because it is my routine once the show is over and I'm brushing my teeth.
[SPEAKER_02]: I let the dogs out one more.
[SPEAKER_02]: I make sure that all the doors are locked up.
[SPEAKER_02]: Did that feel different to you?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I was explaining, but I was being intentional about not being defensive.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: OK, so that's my first question.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's so that worked.
[SPEAKER_02]: how about this though?
[SPEAKER_02]: So say there's a different circumstance.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I begin to react and I then I tell you, hey, I feel like I just entered the courtroom.
[SPEAKER_02]: Will you be able to let go of your resentment anger and your trigger around the fact that maybe I was defensive?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to start working on that, giving you the benefit of the doubt that seeing you actually make an effort and bringing more awareness to defensiveness versus explanation.
[SPEAKER_00]: I also would have compassion for you because that's just like your survival instinct anyway.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I have compassion now for my own anxiety as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so yes, I will really be curious and compassionate like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, can we just roleplay it really quick?
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so this is one.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because it happens a lot around like when you do a task that I'm normally responsible for, I feel like you're pointing out that I haven't done it already.
[SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes I think sometimes you actually are, but sometimes I think you're doing it just to be kind and do a task for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just my little little.
[SPEAKER_02]: Metal takes so ask me, did you feed the dogs?
[SPEAKER_00]: Which I asked almost every morning.
[SPEAKER_00]: Almost every morning.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you feed the dogs?
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I haven't fed the dogs yet, but honestly, I was just getting your coffee and now I'm about to feed the dogs.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wait.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, wait, Tara.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I feel like I'm in the courtroom right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like you're like judging me because I haven't fed the dogs yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, like honestly I would just say thank you so much for sharing that like it feels like I have an awareness of what you're feeling right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: So thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, can I check in with you like, do you sometimes when you ask me whether I fed the dogs or were I've done the cat litter yet?
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you sort of judging the fact that I haven't done on yet?
[SPEAKER_00]: No, in my mind I'm just like completing all the tasks.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do I need to do anything?
[SPEAKER_00]: Do I not need to do anything?
[SPEAKER_02]: When I say no because I was making your coffee first, do you feel like I'm being defensive or do you feel like I'm explaining myself?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you're explaining yourself.
[SPEAKER_02]: You do, you give me that benefit of the law.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Pinky swear.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I didn't, well, one, I do almost always think that when you asked me if I've done something yet, you're disappointed or judging me that I haven't done it yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to really work on that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I almost always think you think I'm being defensive too.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you're saying like, never, like you, like that, like, that's hard to trust.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't say never.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, but you were saying like around like the tasks in the morning.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm normally like, oh my god, because you're amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: You wake up early.
[SPEAKER_00]: You do that cat litter.
[SPEAKER_00]: You do the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: You do outside.
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes I wait or something and that's fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I'm just curious like, hey, do you need me to do anything?
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's almost like my guilt that you do more.
[SPEAKER_00]: So no, no, I.
[SPEAKER_00]: Where do we go from here?
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think if I feel like you're being, you're judging me, I just have to ask you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because because, yes, and you have to trust it out either be honest or not.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then that's happening.
[SPEAKER_02]: You do have to tell me.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you are judging me, you have to.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are times where I will judge you, and I promise to be transparent.
[SPEAKER_02]: OK.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because then it makes it easier for me to know whether I had some justification in defending myself.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to try to always be better at that my motivation isn't to get off the witness stand.
[SPEAKER_02]: and that it really is to just help you understand what's going on for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that that's my big switch.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that if when I do explain myself, when I do defend myself, I need to quickly just like let you in on this process of like, I'm feeling like, like, you think I haven't lived up to what your expectations of nearer.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just gotta ask you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just gotta check in with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I have to be transparent.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I promise I will be.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, and so and so the exercise for you at home.
[SPEAKER_00]: What you're thinking for going through that clinkingness with us?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it is looking at...
[SPEAKER_02]: this, you know, talking to each other about like, when are we being defensive?
[SPEAKER_02]: When are we just explaining what's going on?
[SPEAKER_02]: And how can we like be curious and and honest with each other about what's happening?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because from my side, I have to be more honest and transparent
[SPEAKER_02]: Judging me like I just have to ask her whether she's judging me.
[SPEAKER_00]: You do And we're gonna follow up next week because this is huge each day.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because I've never really done them No, you've never done that but so what's your part then like what do you need to tell?
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to be honest like you know what I am judging you right now We're honestly each year.
[SPEAKER_00]: I could see why you would think that because I know in the past I've judged you a lot because of our resentment But that truly was not yeah, that was out of kindness and I love you because this particular dynamic also we can go into the slater
[SPEAKER_02]: is also born out of this idea that you feel like you do everything at times.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it feeds into my story.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're trying to clear it clear it up, guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, yeah, so many layers get bunch together in our suffering and our resentment and our defensiveness and our survival skills that we're just cleaning it up and being really transparent.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'll never forget when we help this one couple,
[SPEAKER_00]: She would get triggered when he would go get a beer out of the fridge because she would think Oh my gosh, like it's a Monday or a Tuesday and like she was judging him for like having one during kind of Monday or Tuesday And then he could feel it because like the eyes were burning in the back of his head
[SPEAKER_00]: And then he would be like, oh my gosh, she's trying to control me, so you guys have to be really transparent about your each other's processes because really it's not at the end of the day it's not about the beer in the fridge.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's that you're judging and then you feel controlled and now you guys are totally rupturing emotional safety and so once that more transparency was able to evolve they made amazing progress.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think like the real takeaway here is that healthy relationships aren't creating an environment where you're never defensive or you're never explaining yourself.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're built upon two people who are really trying to understand each other.
[SPEAKER_02]: and understand the dynamics in their relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because this is something we've been struggling for a long time with, something we're getting better with, but we had a little break through today.
[SPEAKER_00]: We did.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it has to be okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm going to still judge you sometimes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm going to get defensive sometimes, but I'm not checking any of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there has to be an agreement between us and listeners that we're agreeing to understand each other's defensive mechanisms better.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if we do get it wrong, and we'll get it wrong a lot, we're going to continue to process through it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because that's our agreement because we love each other and we're in each other's care.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and we are not in a courtroom.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not in a courtroom.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not in a courtroom.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not in a courtroom.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not in a courtroom.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, hopefully you got something out of that episode.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much for listening, take care of yourself, take care of each other, bye-bye.