[SPEAKER_00]: Hello and welcome to the Alcumian podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is an exploration of woman kind.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here we discuss what it is to be a woman in the modern world while utilizing ancient and modern modalities in tandem to create a bounty of health for the body, mind and spirit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good day everyone and welcome back to the part.
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope you're having a beautiful morning.
[SPEAKER_00]: After not evening, wherever you are, listening from in the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: Before we get into today's amazing interview with Cheryl Moody from Australia's Famicile Watch, let's pay our respects to the oldest past, present and future, residing in the lands of Literaturator Tasmania where I'm recording this podcast today.
[SPEAKER_00]: Always has, always will be baby.
[SPEAKER_00]: Today's guest, Cheryl Moody is a big one.
[SPEAKER_00]: She has spent years doing the work that most of us would find unbearable to do for a week.
[SPEAKER_00]: She keeps account, a ledger of women and girls killed in this country, my stomping ground, Australia, because no one at a federal level really truly does it for her.
[SPEAKER_00]: That count now runs past 3,000 names alongside it.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's built a career as a journalist and advocate, as someone who sits with families through police interviews, coronial inquest and courtrooms,
[SPEAKER_00]: long after the news cycle has moved on.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's currently calling for a royal commission into the killing of women and girls in Australia, and the petition backing that call is now approaching 120,000 signatures.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're recording this in July of 2026, and the number of women killed just this year already sits at 36.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to let her tell you why that number matters, what's behind it, and what is being done, and not done about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Before we begin, let's have a little content warning.
[SPEAKER_00]: This conversation deals with the killing of women, girls, and children, including infants.
[SPEAKER_00]: Domestic and family violence, sexual violence, and the death of children.
[SPEAKER_00]: We talk about specific cases about grief, and we discuss the failures of police,
[SPEAKER_00]: If you are a survivor, if you have lost someone, please look after yourself, skip this one, or come back to it when you are ready with the support person holding your hand.
[SPEAKER_00]: If anything raises something for you, you can call 1-800-RESPECT.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's available on 1-800-737-732, and Lifeline is always available at 13-1114-24 hours a day.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's get into this amazing interview
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for joining me, Cheryl.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's get right into it.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've got a lot to cover today.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for anyone who doesn't know you and your story, can you please take us back to Stacey and Sandra and how that shapes the person that we're sitting with here today?
[SPEAKER_00]: What made you decide to turn your grief into your life's work?
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you mind telling us about that experience and what that was like for you?
[SPEAKER_01]: When I was 19 years old, my stepfather abducted Rape to murdered a little girl.
[SPEAKER_01]: Her name is Stacey and Tracy.
[SPEAKER_01]: She was only nine years old.
[SPEAKER_01]: On the day that he was charged with her murder, the detective in charge of the investigation, told me about another little girl that he had abducted Rape to murdered around 22 years beforehand.
[SPEAKER_01]: Her name was Sandra Dorothy Bacon, and she was only five years old.
[SPEAKER_01]: He abducted Stacey as she was walking to school.
[SPEAKER_01]: She just dropped her little sister off at the little school and she was heading to her own school ground and my stepfather managed to convince her to get into his car and and took her to the family home and raped and murdered her there and then dumped her body in the bush near the tip.
[SPEAKER_01]: When police were investigating her murder I was able to identify material that was found with Stacey and his body as having come from my mother's house and as a result of that identification I became a witness for the prosecution on the day.
[SPEAKER_01]: that he was charged.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was sitting with Detective Gale Hogan on the back step of the Roma police house looking into the watch house where he was standing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she, I asked her a, you know, why did he do this?
[SPEAKER_01]: And she said to me, Sherel, we can never, even the best psychiatrists can never tell you why he did this.
[SPEAKER_01]: the only person who can is him and then I asked her about his criminal history and she told me about Sandra.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Sandra was five years old and she was actually the daughter of one of his neighbors in Townsville and he convinced her to come into his home by saying he had some books to give her big sister and yeah he raped and murdered her there and and put her body in the back of his car
[SPEAKER_01]: Not only did he kill them, he joined the searches for them.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he was part of the search teams in both their deaths and in Sandra's case.
[SPEAKER_01]: He actually spoke to Sandra's parents and said, I know what you're going through, my brother went missing once.
[SPEAKER_01]: As a result of his actions, there was obviously a huge impact on Stacey's family and Sandra's family.
[SPEAKER_01]: And at my end, there was a huge impact on me personally, and also it continues to resonate through the lives of myself and my siblings who have had to endure a lot of trauma.
[SPEAKER_01]: So one of the things that I decided to do around 11 years ago was to start a campaign to end violence, and part of that was documenting the killing of women and children in Australia.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I started documenting them on Facebook and Stacey Ann and Sandra were the first two names and stories that I published on Facebook and over time, I've now documented the killing of more than 3,000 women and children in Australia and Australian women and children overseas.
[SPEAKER_01]: deaths are contained on my website, which is a memorial to women and children lost violence and also the Australian and famous side map.
[SPEAKER_01]: In the last 11 years since I started doing that, my work has changed considerably.
[SPEAKER_01]: I kind of dedicated a lot of my last few years of my journalism career in mainstream media to social justice reporting and specifically reporting around.
[SPEAKER_01]: violence against women and children and and genocide.
[SPEAKER_01]: And now that I've actually left mainstream media, I work now one-on-one with families of famicites.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I've provided a lot of supports for them, including, you know, attending court with them, helping them navigate the coronial process.
[SPEAKER_01]: helping them to control the narrative around their person in terms of the media.
[SPEAKER_01]: So one of the biggest failures in the reporting of murdered women in particular by the media is the constant need to present the perpetrator as a good guy who snaps and to present the victim as somehow being responsible for her death.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that may take the form of slut shaming or victim
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a whole raft of other things that the media do wrong when they report them aside.
[SPEAKER_01]: The repercussions of that is frames how people view them aside victims in particular.
[SPEAKER_01]: It frames how they view the perpetrators actions.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's why we see a lot of victim blaming on social media because we have mainstream media basically saying that she's asking for it and that influences what the everyday person feels about the killing of women.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it also the biggest impact though is the impact on families.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know,
[SPEAKER_01]: waking up to media reports, identifying your loved one before you even know they've been murdered, is devastating and traumatizing.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then having the media troll through their social media and take their photos and republished posts that they've made, having them erase your person, or, you know, kind of blame her, so victim blame her, say she was doing something in particular
[SPEAKER_01]: sort of sexualizing her.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's just this all of this stuff that really contributes to the trauma of families.
[SPEAKER_01]: So my work in the space of helping families control the narrative around their person is giving them the skills and tools they need to control what
[SPEAKER_01]: Journalists asked them in order to, you know, sort of teaching them how to respond to questioning, teaching them how to talk about, you know, the, the, the, you know, kind of the hurdles that their person faced in a way that doesn't make them look bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the reality is that we all have hurdles, you know, some of us are used substance, some of us have been incarcerated, you know, some of us may have worked in sex work.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's all of these things, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And a woman shouldn't be defined by those moments.
[SPEAKER_01]: She should be defined by her entire life.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, yes, there's a lot of work in that space, and yes, the things have really evolved over the 11 years, and that's kind of where I'm at now.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's quite a powerful thing that you've just told us that you have had this traumatic experience, which was the seed of your experience, and you transmuted that into helping other people, and yeah, how that has transformed you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can imagine is probably huge as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it really surprises me to hear that journalists do not reach out to the family.
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't do that due diligence.
[SPEAKER_00]: That really shocked me when you just said that I assumed that they would have.
[SPEAKER_00]: I assumed that journalists would at least be in some ways trauma-informed but it doesn't sound like they are at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was going to say just in terms of the fact that I'm actually reaching out to family that does happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what happens is a woman is killed.
[SPEAKER_01]: Journalists go to the street where she's killed.
[SPEAKER_01]: They interview the neighbors.
[SPEAKER_01]: They get the neighbors to show them the social media profile of the victim.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they publish her name and publish photos.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then when they work out who the family is or friends are, they will DM them on social media,
[SPEAKER_01]: So, they do actually reach out, but it's a really intrusionary reach out.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's basically sliding into their DMs and saying, hey, I realize your person's been killed coming into view.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's pretty appalling.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm disgusted, that's disgusting.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's really quite disgusting.
[SPEAKER_00]: How insensitive that is, but that is the journalistic culture, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: That this is the story we need to get to at first, which is so insensitive and so wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: You've documented more than 3,000 deaths as you said before.
[SPEAKER_00]: Walk us through what actually goes through that ledger.
[SPEAKER_00]: Where do you get this information from?
[SPEAKER_00]: And why you are the one keeping it and why are Australia government doesn't tend to be doing a very good job at this?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I think that's a very two-sided question.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the first question is, how do I do my work?
[SPEAKER_01]: Three or four times a day, I go through the,
[SPEAKER_01]: official police channels to check if they're investigating any suspicious deaths.
[SPEAKER_01]: When I find out about a suspicious death, I put that information into an offline database.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I will work my police sources to determine what the circumstances are.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't reach out to family.
[SPEAKER_01]: I work with police sources.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or I wait.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it's a waiting game.
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously monitoring media is a really part of the important part of this process as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also am really lucky that I've built up a very comprehensive contact database within the sector.
[SPEAKER_01]: So within particularly within the domestic and family violence sector, but I have contacts who, so people who work in morgues across Australia.
[SPEAKER_01]: and also people who work in front line emergency departments at hospitals.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm really lucky.
[SPEAKER_01]: I kind of have a lot of people that I can reach out to when we do have a suspicious death.
[SPEAKER_01]: The first thing is determining if her death is suspicious and then determining if there was definitely violence.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that can take sometimes if you will find out the information you need within an hour of a death becoming
[SPEAKER_01]: public or it may take three weeks or even a year to get the information needed to publish.
[SPEAKER_01]: The other results they have is families themselves.
[SPEAKER_01]: So often family members will come to me and say, hey, I had to say this, but one of my people are going to be on your project and they will often provide the information I need to get the publication of that person's death
[SPEAKER_01]: online.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it is kind of a it's it's a process and it's a process that works and it's very diligent and the aim is to make sure that I capture her death but not expose her family to more trauma.
[SPEAKER_01]: So my my habit is to publish the bare bones even if I know her her name I won't publish it first up.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that'll be in the toll counting card that you see on social media.
[SPEAKER_01]: and also on the memorial to women and children lost a violence should be presented as an unnamed woman.
[SPEAKER_01]: Once I've confirmed her identity and have confirmed her family accountable with having her identified, then I do the she matters cards and identify her on the projects.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's kind of that process there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the idea is that it's with the toll count that it is as immediate as possible.
[SPEAKER_01]: So but without kind of publishing information that's incorrect because the last thing I want to do is have a family believing their persons be murdered when she has
[SPEAKER_01]: or, and I don't want to have to walk back the count.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to say to people, look, I stuff up, but you know, if I, if I'm time to time, it does happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: This second part of that question that you asked was around, why doesn't the government do it?
[SPEAKER_01]: The government does have some counts.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare every year publishers are homicide count or publishers homicide data for the country and the government has its so-called intimate partner violence, homicide intimate partner homicide tracker.
[SPEAKER_01]: The problems with both of those is that they don't actually capture every violent death.
[SPEAKER_01]: So not every perpetrator of violence is charged with a homicide.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the first thing to realize.
[SPEAKER_01]: A significant number of them are charged with homicide, but they not everyone is.
[SPEAKER_01]: So some of them will be charged with manslaughter, some of them might be just charged with grievous bodily harm if there's
[SPEAKER_01]: a question over the cause of death.
[SPEAKER_01]: Some of them are not charged at all because the crime is still being investigated and some of them are charged with significantly lesser offences.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for instance a man who deliberately kills a woman using his vehicle may only be charged with dangerous driving causing death.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's why that homicide count is really different to my
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really, you know, my parameters are every woman and child lost as a result of an unlawful action so that it does capture the deaths that the government won't capture, so those men's orders and in the use, the case of vehicle deaths where men deliberately use their vehicles to kill women.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so the government, I feel like the government's count is it's really misleading and in terms of it intimate partner homicide count, again, it misses the women who are killed by their partners that wear their charges not homicide, but women are not only killed as a result of intimate partner violence, which is why a lot of people don't realise.
[SPEAKER_01]: So
[SPEAKER_01]: Women can be murdered by their current or former partner, other family members, people known to them outside of the family circle or strangers.
[SPEAKER_01]: In other words, women can be killed by anyone.
[SPEAKER_01]: Around 60% of the death side document, year-on-year, are due to intimate partner violence or domestic violence.
[SPEAKER_01]: Around 35% are due to
[SPEAKER_01]: who were killed by a person they know, but that person is not connected to them in a familiar way.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it might be a neighbor or, you know, a colleague or or someone like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we have around a 5% of the deaths are due to strange violence.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's no known relationship between
[SPEAKER_01]: the perpetrator and the victim.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the official, so obviously the official count from the government is really misleading in that regard.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't capture at a minimum of 40% deaths.
[SPEAKER_01]: That intimate partner counter only captures intimate partner violence where there's a homicide charge.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that distinction is really important as well because I think and to you said that and I was reaching for this interview my understanding was that 95% of violence against women was usually done by a man or a family member close to them, but you're saying that 60%.
[SPEAKER_00]: which is a huge distinction and that really pulls calls into question, why?
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess into part and part of violence we have a more understanding on, but stranger violence is something that feels in some ways differently nefarious and more scary in a way because that tells women that really you're never really truly safe around these, I guess, mostly men who are harming them.
[SPEAKER_00]: So do you mind explaining what this nuance means and why that distinction is so important?
[SPEAKER_01]: So one of the things that I've, you know, that I can, I can tell from my work and it's actually easiest for people to understand.
[SPEAKER_01]: They say, if they listen to my she matters podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you document deaths, you see passions and the patterns become more obvious, the more you hear the stories or the more you see the stories.
[SPEAKER_01]: The thing about violence against women or the thing
[SPEAKER_01]: Most women are killed by men known to them.
[SPEAKER_01]: So 95% of the deaths are perpetrated by men known to them.
[SPEAKER_01]: So those men are either intimate partners, former partners, family members, or associates.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's one of the common denominators here is that's almost almost always the way a woman is almost always killed by a man known to her.
[SPEAKER_01]: In the case of stranger violence, a woman is almost always targeted by a man for simply being a woman.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she may be targeted because she's a woman and she simply exists and that man is out to kill.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or he's targeted her because he's killing her as part of sexual violence.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's
[SPEAKER_01]: It's targeted.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really rare women to die in a situation where they're not targeted and for being female.
[SPEAKER_01]: So an example of this would be, we know that the killings at Bondi West Field in 2024, the killer targeted woman, five of the six people he killed were women.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was for me that was a clear act of furmicide.
[SPEAKER_01]: But at Bondi Beach, the killer's targeted people for their religious stand, for their religious beliefs.
[SPEAKER_01]: And amongst the people they killed were a number of women.
[SPEAKER_01]: So in that case, these women died as a result of strange violence, but they were not the primary target.
[SPEAKER_01]: A group of people, regardless of gender, was the primary target here.
[SPEAKER_01]: These men were not out hunting women.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's the difference.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a very small difference.
[SPEAKER_01]: That second example, the Bondi Beach massacre is kind of an outlier in the work that I do, so where women are not deliberately targeted, but they are the victims of strange violence perpetrator by men.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so that's that's kind of there.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when you look at them aside overall, in almost all cases, you can see if you dig deep, you can see the drivers.
[SPEAKER_01]: So how does the man who's killing the woman view woman, what's his past behavior being like with women?
[SPEAKER_01]: Does this man believe that he has a right to control the woman?
[SPEAKER_01]: Does this man believe that women are lesser than
[SPEAKER_01]: Does this man have a history of abusing women?
[SPEAKER_01]: Does he have a history of demeaning women?
[SPEAKER_01]: Does he have a history of saying things on Facebook or to his mates?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, things that indicate he believes women are lesser than him.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of like the bigger picture driver, the bigger picture elements that underpin violence against women.
[SPEAKER_01]: So one of those drivers, for example, is
[SPEAKER_01]: how if men view women as lesser they are more likely to harm them physically if that makes sense and does do you know if men view women as you know kind of having to do the share of their household duties and and that like putting them into a particular category.
[SPEAKER_01]: all of those are drivers, you know, the way that we view women's inequality, the treatment of women, that sort of stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can see those patterns in Famousite.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can see them.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what I'm saying is the elements, or the kind of those bigger picture drivers, underpinning associate violence against women, so male perpetrators associate violence against women, are actually really similar to those underpinning domestic and family violence.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you get the picture and in most cases, underpinning male perpetrators,
[SPEAKER_01]: When a man kills a man in a stranger context, it's more likely to be a random act of violence, most likely involving drugs or alcohol.
[SPEAKER_01]: When a man kills a woman in an act of stranger violence, it's more likely to be an act of hate or targeted violence against women.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's the common denominator between associative and domestic violence.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't really matter when a woman is being killed by a man most likely 95% of the time you're saying it's because it is an active gendered violence.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's really interesting this year.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's more of an outcry against Femicide.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think more people are aware of Femicide this year that I've noticed.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's been an ongoing conversation around it that's been growing.
[SPEAKER_00]: But...
[SPEAKER_00]: You've said without the count that you're doing, most people think that Femesite only occurs once or twice a year.
[SPEAKER_00]: How does making the count and making that count visible change the conversation that we're having?
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, the deeper conversation around the patriarchy and violence against women and the beliefs that we have against women that mend into hold.
[SPEAKER_01]: Look, if we don't have a comprehensive count of all of the context in which women and children are killed, we can't fix it, is essentially what it comes down to.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think one of the things about my count is I've managed to use social media in a way that ensures that people see the victims.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's about turn, like with my work, I turn up for every victim, regardless of the circumstances of her death,
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's one of the reasons why the count my count resonates with people because I turn up for every victim.
[SPEAKER_01]: I write about every victim and it's in your face.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't avoid it and it's you know, I make sure that it's across all of my digital assets.
[SPEAKER_01]: So every cut form that I work on has that count.
[SPEAKER_01]: So making victims visible means that we contribute to ensuring conversation
[SPEAKER_01]: Social media has been a really important tool for me and continues to be a really important tool and without it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We wouldn't be having these conversations.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that is absolutely vital and one of the reasons I believe that it works so well is because people are now more likely to turn to social media for information about what's happening in the world than to mainstream media.
[SPEAKER_01]: and mainstream media doesn't cover a femurside, like I do, like it just doesn't turn up, it doesn't turn up for every death.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it doesn't have an ongoing sustained conversation around femurside.
[SPEAKER_01]: So mainstream media is not actually contributing to this very well.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the use of social media when people like me kind of being out there and in everybody's face every, you know, all the time about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that kind of is helping drive,
[SPEAKER_01]: the understanding of what's happening and helping getting people, you know, to kind of realize that this is not just one or two prominent cases a year, this is something that's happening around every four days on average in Australia.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if we can do that, if we can get people having conversations around this and if we can get people engaging with the material and sort of
[SPEAKER_01]: then we have a better chance of influencing a policy decisions and funding decisions around, you know, fixing those holes in the safety nets that will ultimately help keep women alive.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's really one of the main reasons that I do the count because I don't believe that you can actually change the flaws in the system without
[SPEAKER_01]: being really public about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: You just need to be really pushing it all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: If we keep this conversation offline, if we keep it silent, if we keep it secret, we're not going to get the government to act at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's kind of really the most important part of that online conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why people are kind of more likely to be talking about it now than they were five years ago.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's statistic that you just said before one every four days is really confronting and what I like the most about your website is it really humanizes the victims and it's crazy that even have to say then that's part of what you do is that we have to humanize these people because when you hear one every four days, okay, that is a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, 36 women this year.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, yeah, that is a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you think of 36 people and you're like, oh, maybe it's not that important, but then you go on your website and you see their faces and their names, you find out they had children, you find out what they did for work, you find out how the families reacted to it and the details of their murder and the details of the abuse.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it really drives at home that one woman a year is still too much and they should not be happening at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, one average that one woman killed every four days in Australia for someone hearing that statistic for the first time, how do you get them to feel it instead of just filing it away.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, really, you use the word there that makes it possible to get people to engage and understand.
[SPEAKER_01]: Humanize, that's it, humanizing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's basically telling her story.
[SPEAKER_01]: So my ever since I started this, like in all the years that I've done at my, my mantra has been, we can't change her story, but her story can change another woman's story or another child's story.
[SPEAKER_01]: Does it make sense?
[SPEAKER_01]: And really, that's that is the basic premise of what I do and that's why I do it in a way that is around storytelling and around bringing families into kind of tell the story of their person.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you tell the stories of women killed, you give people a reason to want to make a change.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't like numbers.
[SPEAKER_01]: are not going to make a change.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, in 2024, we lost 106 women to violence.
[SPEAKER_01]: And nothing about that number has influenced a policy decision in this country.
[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing about that number.
[SPEAKER_01]: 106 women, that is a lot, it's one of our highest.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, as the highest,
[SPEAKER_01]: in decades in Australia.
[SPEAKER_01]: But nothing about that made a change.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Prime Minister never said anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, we were, you know, that year, I cannot tell you how exhausted and angry and sad.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was, I just, how I got through 2024, I do not know.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was, it was a horrible, and every year is horrible when we lose women, but it was just so much worse.
[SPEAKER_01]: and yet our government didn't see our Prime Minister didn't see our policy makers didn't see the only people who saw other families and the people who were seeing my work on social media those were the people who saw last year we lost 79 women to violence again same thing it's a significant number of women being killed and again no action from government
[SPEAKER_01]: people who make funding decisions.
[SPEAKER_01]: No action from media, all of the actions coming from grassroots organisations and people, you know, grassroots individuals like me, fit Mac to us.
[SPEAKER_01]: This year we're already at number 38 and again, you know, there's been no action.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Prime Minister has been exceedingly silent even when we are
[SPEAKER_01]: the other week we lost two women and two girls, two acts of male violence in three days.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Prime Minister didn't say a word.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the man who leads a country didn't say a word.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I mean for me, obviously, even though I can tell you these numbers and I know them off by heart and you know, I couldn't, I couldn't tell them to anyone who asked me.
[SPEAKER_01]: The numbers don't make a difference, but I believe that the stories do.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I believe that we need to hear or read those stories.
[SPEAKER_01]: We need to hear and read about the lives they lived.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we need to read and hear about the impacts of their deaths on their families, their friends and their communities.
[SPEAKER_01]: How homicide or violent death resonates through not just 100 people, but thousands of people.
[SPEAKER_01]: and to ensure that these stories are held somewhere for the families.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a homage to their loved ones but also to them.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's, it there's all of these reasons for having these stories.
[SPEAKER_01]: And my hope is that one day we will have such leadership in this country that they will actually look at these stories.
[SPEAKER_01]: They will hear these stories and they will read these stories.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they will start to make decisions that will ultimately help save women's lives.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I guess the one other thing that comes from telling the stories and constantly talking about her life is it gives me an opportunity to talk about the point in her life where she could have been saved.
[SPEAKER_01]: The moment that the system's failed her and that moment might be, you know, I'm going to the police and not getting the correct response.
[SPEAKER_01]: it might be not being able to get a bed and refuge, it might be, you know, being forced home because the domestic violence service didn't have enough funding to provide support.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's a million reasons why women are falling through the holes in the safety nets, and I could take up 10 podcasts with those.
[SPEAKER_01]: But we can have a look at those failures and we can start really documenting them and kind of start saying, well, how do we fix this?
[SPEAKER_01]: What do we need?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so it's kind of like a long, long answer, I guess, to that question.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you answered it beautifully and it goes beautifully into the next part of the question is the royal commission, your calling for a royal commission into the killing of women and girls, in plain terms, what would it actually do and what isn't being done?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so again, it comes back to that policy making, that funding decision.
[SPEAKER_01]: and it also comes back to the the responses to Femicide that we have.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is calling for a Royal Commission into Femicide is basically the crux of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: My research shows Australia has a Femicide Rate that is higher than Italy and higher if not than Britain.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it is very
[SPEAKER_01]: But we don't have federal law.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't have a federal femoside law.
[SPEAKER_01]: We absolutely should like we have a federal terrorism law.
[SPEAKER_01]: We should have a federal femoside law.
[SPEAKER_01]: I believe that because I think that we need as many legal options in our two kids as we can get.
[SPEAKER_01]: As I said before, the issue with documenting only documenting domestic and family violence deaths means that we only prioritise funding and policy for domestic and family violence deaths were not prioritising anything for women who are at risk outside of that circle.
[SPEAKER_01]: So basically we're ignoring 40% of victims, we're ignoring the opportunity to save 40% of lives which I think is reprehensible.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think a woman should have access, should be denied access to support, simply because she is not a victim of domestic and domestic family violence.
[SPEAKER_01]: For instance, I have women coming to me saying, my neighbor is, you know, I'm in fear of my neighbor, but I can't get any support.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no support for her, literally nothing, so we need a real commission to examine
[SPEAKER_01]: Who's being killed?
[SPEAKER_01]: Who's doing the killing?
[SPEAKER_01]: The drivers, the factors, underpinning those deaths.
[SPEAKER_01]: What policy do we have to prevent fermercyd?
[SPEAKER_01]: What policy do we need?
[SPEAKER_01]: What support services do we have to prevent fermercyd?
[SPEAKER_01]: What support services do we need?
[SPEAKER_01]: How much funding do we need?
[SPEAKER_01]: What do we have in terms of preventing male violence?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, what support services do we have for men who are choosing violence?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, do we have an adequate funding?
[SPEAKER_01]: There's all of these things that need to be taken into account.
[SPEAKER_01]: That needs to be taken into account across all areas of male violence against women and girls.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, across every part of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've never had a national truth telling on male violence in this country.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've never had, like, not no state or territory, and the federal government have never sat down and asked women to come forward until their stories of male violence.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yet,
[SPEAKER_01]: Women and girls are more likely to experience a form of male violence than anyone else in this country.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are at higher risk, and I'm not talking about our violent deaths.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm talking about the risk of male violence to us, so harassment, abuse, stalking, sexual violence, all of those things.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't have, in fact,
[SPEAKER_01]: The women die by suicide, post a family violence and post sexual violence is only just coming to our attention.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yet we lose a significant number of women a week in this way.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we have a significant number of women killing themselves every week because they endured our form of violence.
[SPEAKER_01]: These women are not counted.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't have a mechanism for counting them.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't have a mechanism for recording their deaths.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we don't have a mechanism for responding to that very specific area of mental health trauma after violence.
[SPEAKER_01]: We just don't have those mechanisms there.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're not taking them into a count.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if we if we were to take those deaths into account, our genocide toll would be significantly higher.
[SPEAKER_01]: We also don't have any criminal options at a state military level to hold perpetrators to account when a woman suicides after their violence.
[SPEAKER_01]: so I call it a homicide by proxy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Basically, the person who abuse them has killed them, they just haven't used their own hands.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we don't have any of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: These are the things that a raw commission would look at it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would also look at the extremely high rates of violence against Aboriginal women, all of the
[SPEAKER_01]: areas in which Aboriginal women are being failed, it would look at deliberately disappeared women, so women who have, uh, someone's made them, got rid of them, someone's killed them and their cases are just set as a missing case.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we'd look at deliberately disappeared women and how we kind of overcome the barriers to getting police to investigate those deaths as potential homicide.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think the most important part of a real commission is actually giving families a femurside the opportunity to take part in a national truth telling.
[SPEAKER_01]: So allowing them a forum to comment, tell their person's story, to policy makers, to MPs, to our parliamentary leaders, to the media.
[SPEAKER_01]: So giving them a forum, and I believe I, I, I fervently believe that they deserve
[SPEAKER_01]: petition arms from my conversations with families.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't it's not just an idea for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: It actually comes in and is driven by the conversations that I have with families every day.
[SPEAKER_00]: What you just said flies in the face of what some sector and government argue we already have thousands of recommendations from previous inquiries and we should just implement them.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's your answer to?
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't need more reviews because it sounds like we need more reviews.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't sound like we're even touching the side of investigating this whatsoever
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's kind of ironic that the government that opposes the Prime Minister opposing a Femeside Royal Commission by saying, we already know what needs to be fixed, but actually not fixing it, it's just doesn't make any fucking sense to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: How can you sit there and say, we already know what the problem is?
[SPEAKER_01]: We're just doing nothing about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I mean, I think that if ever there's a need for a raw commission, that's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We already know why women are being killed, but we're not doing anything about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's get a national truth telling and ask why we're not doing anything about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Look, I'm not saying that a Royal Commission will end Femesite, I don't believe that a Royal Commission will, but what it would do is give families the opportunity as I said to have that national truth telling to tell their stories.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it would also give Australia an opportunity to examine male violence against women and girls, like look at the impact of male violence on 51% of the population.
[SPEAKER_01]: And really,
[SPEAKER_01]: have a measure of that and then find ways forward so that we can have proper funding commitment, proper policy commitments in order to reverse it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's a real commission is a tool.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a part.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's one part of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: If we can have a real commission into Australian defense force suicide, if we can have a real commission into anti-Semitism, if we can have a real commission into everything else, then why can't
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the government says, well, it's just going to be a waste of money.
[SPEAKER_01]: My argument is we already know we can already quantify the cost of domestic violence itself on Australia's economy.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, and we already know that it costs our economy a minimum of $21 billion a year.
[SPEAKER_01]: What we're calling for is a $500 million investment into examining Femeside holistically and examining male violence holistically, because we know already know that one aspect of Femeside costs at least $21 billion a year.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then why aren't we, you know, kind of like, it makes economic sense a $500 million investment into examining the why's and what's and who's and how's can actually ultimately bring that cost down.
[SPEAKER_00]: investment in women who make up the majority of the population.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that commentary he said, it only funds lawyers.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, let's just go back a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Last time I checked lawyers a fantastic and very good at their jobs and they know how to create policy and we don't have policy at the moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I really understand that commentary.
[SPEAKER_00]: I found it really defensive.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's almost like he knew we're not doing that much.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I know I'm just going to get really defensive here and say that we do know we're just not doing it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well, you're the prime minister.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why aren't we doing it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Would you agree?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like what went through your mind when you heard him say that?
[SPEAKER_00]: because I was just outraged.
[SPEAKER_00]: I remember feeling like a counterman of rage.
[SPEAKER_01]: 100% it was basically saying women are not worth women.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't value women enough to invest in them.
[SPEAKER_01]: But we value a religious group enough to invest in their safety.
[SPEAKER_01]: We value defense force members enough to invest in their safety.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would say,
[SPEAKER_01]: that when the woman was petitioning for the Royal Commission into Defence Force suicide some years ago, and Albo was in opposition at the time, and he signed her change.org petition, and he wrote on there that the Royal Commission into Defence Force suicides was necessary and it must because it's the most important truth-telling platform in Australia, and it must happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was okay to invest in and most of the people who suicide are male and most of the people impacted by defense force suicide are male.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he's basically he said in that moment he was saying that men's lives were worth investing in.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when he said that about the Royal Commission into Famicile, he essentially said women's lives are not worth investing in.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was very dismissive, and he didn't understand the importance of it, he didn't understand the question, he didn't even, you know, kind of go, well, hold on, let me get my policy people to reach out to the person who's doing this petition and have a chat to her, so I can understand where she's coming from, so I can get my head around this before being so fucking flippant.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was, it was really fucking flippin', as you said.
[SPEAKER_00]: It really shocked me and surprised me as well, because I was like, this is not the Albo I know.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is not the Albo that you have marketed yourself at.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he also said that the government points to 4.4 billion invested into many programs.
[SPEAKER_00]: You just said that interpersonal violence against women costs 21 billion.
[SPEAKER_00]: So of course, that's not touching the sides.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you mind explaining why this isn't working?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, from that economic premise, it costs more than what they're putting money into.
[SPEAKER_00]: What are the services that the government is providing
[SPEAKER_01]: So when he's talking about the 4.4 billion, he's not talking about 4.4 billion a year.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's talking about it over a period of time.
[SPEAKER_01]: So budgets are often, money is often allocated over a four year period in budgets.
[SPEAKER_01]: So and he's not just talking about direct service provision there.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's other service provision.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he might be talking about,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, money invested in childcare, he might be talking about money invested in, you know, kind of transitional housing, you know, how much money is the federal government giving state governments for their transitional housing programs.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he's talking about a lot of things there, but it's not 4.4 billion dollars a year.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would say that he's phrasing in that particular interview around the Femeside Royal Commission was look where throwing money at it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I mean, firstly, as not throwing money at anything, it is literally investing in women's lives.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have domestic violence organizations and again,
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm talking only talking about domestic violence organisations because they're literally the only ones out there that we have helping women.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wish that I could say gendered violence organisations or violence organisations, but I just hate that I always have to say it's just domestic violence organisations.
[SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, those organisations and those professionals are saying repeatedly to the federal and state and territory government,
[SPEAKER_01]: We can't meet demand.
[SPEAKER_01]: We cannot answer every call that comes to us.
[SPEAKER_01]: We cannot house every woman who needs housing.
[SPEAKER_01]: We cannot provide support for perpetrators when they ask us for a support.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're saying to the government we don't have enough money.
[SPEAKER_01]: Generally across every state and territory the governments are tightening their belt and they're cutting funding to domestic and family violence organizations.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're seeing that one of the most obvious scenarios here is what's happening in the Northern territory where that government literally took vital domestic and family violence funding and put it into juvenile crime prevention programs because Aboriginal children were being caught stealing cars.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they've taken
[SPEAKER_01]: money that could save those Aboriginal children from violence or could save their moms from violence and put it into programs designed to protect white people's vehicles and property.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, we're saying that's a really stark examination, but here in Victoria, the government is also cutting back on the Mystic and Family Violence Funding organizations are having to beg for it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're watching TV and New South Wales just about every
[SPEAKER_01]: asking the state government and the federal government to please give us more because we're not coping.
[SPEAKER_01]: We just, we have refugees that don't have enough space.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's not enough beds for the demand.
[SPEAKER_01]: The women are being sent to hotels or they're literally when they are desperate and they have no choice but to leave.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're sleeping in their cars or tents.
[SPEAKER_01]: And a really sad example of this is in Waga Waga earlier this year a woman expecting twins had to leave a violent situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: She had no choice but to sleep in a tent by a creek and she lost one of her babies as a result of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, this is what we're looking at.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is women, a woman pregnant with twins was unable to get a place to stay.
[SPEAKER_01]: one of her babies died because of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, you know, the fact that that happened to one woman, let alone women facing that kind of scenario across the country is a warrant and appalling.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there was no action, there was no change, there was no reaction, there was no, you know, commitment to making sure that women at the very least have a place to stay a roof over their heads.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I really don't know how to say anything in response to that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there is no shocking.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: There is just no response.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it is like, sorry.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm getting a little bit emotional.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we have to also think about the vast majority of women do not feel safe enough to leave.
[SPEAKER_00]: They do not have the resources to leave.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're talking about women who can leave, who have the opportunity to leave and want to want to do something and they feel ready.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we are turning the other way.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not even factoring in the women who can't leave these situations.
[SPEAKER_00]: the neighbors who know what's happening and they don't know what to do and they're trying to help them.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's also no services.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no dialogue around what to do either.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just absolutely shocking.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when you talk about the failures of before and after a woman's death, which is the most extreme part of this as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like everything so much violence leads to a woman dying or leads to a woman committing suicide or leads to a woman having to
[SPEAKER_00]: live in a tent and give birth in a tent next to a river because of the violence she's suffering at home.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you mind talking about the system that we have and the lack of opportunities that the system provides for the system intervene in their violence?
[SPEAKER_00]: What do we actually have?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it only services where women have to present themselves?
[SPEAKER_00]: Are there any services that do outreach?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like what does it actually look like on the ground in Australia?
[SPEAKER_01]: Service provision is it looks different depending on the demographic or the people that you're working with, depending on the kind of supports that you offer.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we have a lot of really amazing services that you know kind of work specifically with women from Aboriginal community or multicultural community like they're culturally appropriate services.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, so we service provision as I said is really different.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have the, you know, where you call one, I had hundred respect and the idea is that you're triaged into all the services you need.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've got women's legal services trying to provide legal supports where they have adequate funding.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have in
[SPEAKER_01]: in police forces.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have domestic violence specialists, police officers, in some cases.
[SPEAKER_01]: At courts, we have court support people.
[SPEAKER_01]: So people, they might be volunteers or paid professionals who provide support during the legal process.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there is a myriad of services.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we have some have amazing services in Australia.
[SPEAKER_01]: We just don't have enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: we literally do not have enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we, you know, if a lot of women will call me and you know, or will contact me and say, hey, I've reached out to every housing service in Melbourne, but I can't get a place to stay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not that the housing service is in an adequate.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just that they actually don't have how many where to send the person or they might say,
[SPEAKER_01]: in Queensland, but my phone wasn't answered, and so, you know, DV Connect may not have enough staff available for the high number of calls coming in.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, so that it's really the service provision is, you know, that there's a lot of different charities, not for profit, government, funded organizations, you know, kind of community-led organizations out there doing the very best, you know, everything from trying to get a woman to safety to looking after her
[SPEAKER_01]: and like I said, it really is one of the things that we just don't have enough of those services.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that in order to have enough of those services, we have to have more funding to pay for the staff to pay for the the officers to pay for the material aid that the women need.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what you're basically saying is that we have all of the services.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have amazing people in those services.
[SPEAKER_00]: We just don't have enough funding to expand those services to meet demand.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I'm a look at the, the very, that is a very simplistic point of view on that, but there's also some things that probably need to be fixed in service provision.
[SPEAKER_01]: So things like making sure that a woman's call is answered appropriately, making sure that like
[SPEAKER_01]: for instance an example is policing.
[SPEAKER_01]: If a woman goes to say a police station at Don Casta East and says, I'm, you know, I'm scared he's going to kill me and the police officer at the counter says, do you have evidence?
[SPEAKER_01]: And she says, no, he hasn't, it hasn't physically harmed me yet and the cops says, we'll come back and when it gets physical, that's a failure.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in that woman may go to a police station one suburb over.
[SPEAKER_01]: with the same story and get the supports that she needs so you know the police officer starts an IVO process or triages her with the you know the domestic violence officer on duty and the domestic violence officer on duty connects her to all the supports that was as she needs a statement's taken
[SPEAKER_01]: and the violence is investigated, you know, we get a really textbook outcome.
[SPEAKER_01]: If we don't have every police officer on the same page responding in the same way, then of course you're going to have women falling to the cracks.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we've seen that happen, I've seen, I've documented feminized where women have gone to police.
[SPEAKER_01]: and they've said, I think he's going to kill me and they've been told, come back when it gets physical.
[SPEAKER_01]: The thing is when it did get physical, he killed her.
[SPEAKER_01]: So do you want to mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's really about, you know, so firstly, making sure that you have enough services and all of the services that there are enough that service provision is covering all of our woman's needs and all of the perpetrator needs.
[SPEAKER_01]: making sure that they're funded to be able to do that work.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no use having an organization if it's not properly funded.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then making sure that everyone is on the same page.
[SPEAKER_01]: So whether it's in policing or the family court or you know a mandatory reporting in child care or that sort of stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: So everyone's doing it by the book and properly.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I think that that's kind of the really most important thing to stress, said, is it's not just about funding, it's about how the services or the frontline staff respond.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's also how other politicians like Pauline Hansen are commenting on domestic violence as well and how we prioritize it and how police officers and their belief systems, which are all underneath the patriarchy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we innately believe not to believe women when they're coming to police officers and saying, I am in a situation where I'm going to get killed.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really quite shocking that they aren't being taken seriously.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think Paul Enhance had said domestic violence this week is a two-way street.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying it's just men women can lose their cool as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: She also claimed it takes up 75% of a police officer's time that police have a gut full of it and that's why we're not dealing with the real crime out here.
[SPEAKER_00]: The whole thing needs to be wound back.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, all right, so one of the first things that we need to acknowledge is that there are some police officers who honestly believe that domestic violence is not a crime, that they don't believe that a man harming his partner is a crime or a real crime, and there are some police officers who say they spend far too much time on a domestic than anything else.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, so let's get that out of the way.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's an appalling point of view, and any police officer who believes that should be sacked.
[SPEAKER_01]: They should not have a job.
[SPEAKER_01]: Domestic violence is a crime.
[SPEAKER_01]: Crossout domestic and just use violence, and you automatically say it's a crime.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when you put the word domestic in front, that waters it down to nothing in some people's minds.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I just don't think, I think that any police officer who says that, who believes that is in the wrong job and frankly should fuck off and do something else.
[SPEAKER_01]: Pauline Hansen's comments about domestic violence being a two-way street about, you know, about women should just leave really.
[SPEAKER_01]: She might be parenting what she's parroting what her supporters say and and I believe that she believes that because I, you know, I have actually interviewed her.
[SPEAKER_01]: or attended her rallies throughout her career as a politician because she's been a politician for almost as long as I've been a journalist and then yeah I've had some I've had my moments with her in that time and that conversation hasn't changed in nearly 30 years to be honest.
[SPEAKER_01]: What she did this week?
[SPEAKER_01]: by saying it was a two-way street, was she blamed women for violence against them.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, when she said domestic violence is a two-way street, not only did she blame women for the violence against them, she blamed men who are experiencing violence because she saying that victims are responsible for being abused.
[SPEAKER_01]: They've done something they were asking for it, so, you know, we know that women are primarily the victims of domestic violence, so we know that that comment was directed at women, but
[SPEAKER_01]: And then she just, she should just leave.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if she could just fucking leave, she fucking would.
[SPEAKER_01]: No woman is going to stay in a domestic violence situation for the fun of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't stay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, there's a multitude of reasons, some complex, some simple as to why women don't just leave.
[SPEAKER_01]: And those reasons haven't changed in my lifetime, and they probably won't change in a,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the next generation's lifetime because we don't have the political will to make that change or the cultural will to make the change.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just is almost most often impossible for women to leave.
[SPEAKER_01]: They often don't have the financial resources, the housing resources.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's the safety considerations, there's the need to keep children connected with the other parents.
[SPEAKER_01]: Generally women don't want their child to be disconnected from dad, even if he is abusive, they want their mum to have a relationship, some sort of relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's the safety issues around their children, there's the safety issues around their pets like this, so many fucking reasons why it doesn't happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the women should just leave comment and highly erasers, the responsibility of the person perpetrating the violence.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it basically says the perpetrator of violence should be rewarded and stay at home.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why aren't we having a conversation framed around perpetrators of violence?
[SPEAKER_01]: Why is most of our conversation around what women should do?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or what women, you know, like I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about what women are experiencing.
[SPEAKER_01]: We absolutely should.
[SPEAKER_01]: But these conversations need to be focused on the perpetrator as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: So why isn't the perpetrator at a living?
[SPEAKER_01]: Why isn't the perpetrator taking responsibility for his own decision-making in terms of harming a woman?
[SPEAKER_01]: What are the barriers preventing him from reaching out to get help?
[SPEAKER_01]: What are the barriers from him getting help when he does reach out?
[SPEAKER_01]: What can we do to ensure that a man who is perpetrating violence is given every opportunity and every support to change that behavior and to lead a healthy, happy,
[SPEAKER_01]: normal, stable life and to make sure that their behavior doesn't impact another person.
[SPEAKER_01]: What are we doing there?
[SPEAKER_01]: While we're not talking about this, while a lot of people don't realize is we don't have enough funding surprise for perpetrated programs for support programs for men who are perpetrating or who believe that they're going to be a danger to a woman.
[SPEAKER_01]: We know
[SPEAKER_01]: that a lot of men who, you know, a lot of men admit to questionable behavior and when asked about it, those who are asked about it will say, yeah, I want to do something to change.
[SPEAKER_01]: I realize now looking back on saying this or doing that that it was wrong and I see that it's problematic and I don't want to harm my partner because I love her or I want to fix this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when that guy is at that point and he reaches out to a service such as men's line and says, hey, look, you know, I need a bit of help and the service has to say to him, we can put you on a weight list and you should be able to get that help in about six months.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not going to fucking work.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't work because we know that when someone is seeking help, seeking help is a really big moment like you, it takes a lot to make a decision to seek help regardless of
[SPEAKER_01]: When you seek help and there's no help there for you, you're kind of going to go back to where you were and it also becomes a thing that justifies and legitimizes your behaviour because you say to yourself, when I reached out there was no help, women get everything but they wouldn't help me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I hate women even more right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's totally this story and Paulian Hansen added more field to that fire and a more proof for those men to look to and say, well men don't have that much services, politicians are looking the other way, therefore this behaviour is okay and I can get away with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what is the real risk here for me?
[SPEAKER_00]: We have talked about the zeitgeist of domestic violence and I think that's really important to touch on, but I did want to close with some more hands on.
[SPEAKER_00]: right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So for those listening who intuit that they know someone or they have someone close to them who is in a domestic violence situation, what are some signs to look out for?
[SPEAKER_01]: Look, the signs can be mirrored and I don't want to say that this is definitely a sign that something's going on, but this is what I would say.
[SPEAKER_01]: If, for instance, you might see an interaction between a couple and you might say to yourself,
[SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't feel right.
[SPEAKER_01]: My suggestion is that, you know, if you want to talk to her safely, do it away from the other person, do it very much in private.
[SPEAKER_01]: And don't do it in a way that kind of, you know, implies that she's done something wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't do it in a way that implies that you are kind of looking for gossip or anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: Really, you're just kind of going to say,
[SPEAKER_01]: Is everything okay?
[SPEAKER_01]: I just wanted to check in, you and what's his name doing okay?
[SPEAKER_01]: Give her the chance to tell you and understand that often talking about abuse is really hard.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of embarrassment and shame and fear there.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she may not tell you what you want to hear.
[SPEAKER_01]: She may not actually give you any details.
[SPEAKER_01]: She may not even acknowledge that something's happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: She may not even be aware that of the red flags.
[SPEAKER_01]: She may see some other behavior that you see as red flag.
[SPEAKER_01]: She may just see that as a normal part of him or a normal part of a relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you have to think about these things when you're having these conversations.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because the last thing you want to do is alienate her.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't want her walking away.
[SPEAKER_01]: thinking I'm never going to talk to this person again because you might be the one person she could potentially reach out to.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's really about framing that conversation giving her the opportunity to talk about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't attack him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't like don't demean him to her because if she is feeling shame and embarrassment or feeling like it's, this is a normal part of the
[SPEAKER_01]: relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: The last thing she's going to want to do is have you demeaning her partner to her because she loves him.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're kind of going to alienate that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're really you're going to be really careful with that conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Really let her lead it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just give her the opening.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: Is everything okay at home?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you doing okay?
[SPEAKER_01]: You look a bit down at the moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there something I can help with that kind of stuff, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: If she does open up to you and talks about this, these are the things that I would say.
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you physically safe?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, obviously, psychological issue is not going to be safe, but right now we want to know is she physically safe?
[SPEAKER_01]: If she says, no, I'm not physically safe or I am in fear of my life or I'm scared.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's going to hurt me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Say to her, or I do, do you want me to come to the police station with you?
[SPEAKER_01]: What would you like me to do?
[SPEAKER_01]: What, what help can I give you?
[SPEAKER_01]: So, so really kind of give the ball to her so that she can tell you what she needs.
[SPEAKER_01]: If she, look, a lot of women are not going to live, you know, at the first signs of violence or they're, you know, may take them five or six years to get to a point where they feel safe enough to live.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, what you're going to do is say to her,
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm here for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: You let me know when you're ready to make a move and I will do whatever I can to help you You just let me know what you need.
[SPEAKER_01]: So just really be really open and encouraging and letting her know that you're a safe space to come to a space without Blaming judgment or that sort of stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just a really gentle conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: because shame in that situation can lead to Stockholm syndrome and maybe a furthering of latching on to that partner who could be psychologically and physically unsafe.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think the other thing to realise is that a lot of women won't actually open up because it's not because they don't want to open up, but they also may have concerns about the safety of the person they're talking to, like as in, is my partner going to harm them, especially if it's a relative.
[SPEAKER_01]: like, you know, talking to a sister, she may not tell her sister or a mum or dad, what's happening because she's worried that her partner might find out and hurt them.
[SPEAKER_01]: She might be worried that her relative might react and go on hurt her partner and put themselves in danger.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's all of these things going through her mind and then of course there's the judgment, the shame, and often there isn't an
[SPEAKER_01]: unlike our lack of knowledge.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no understanding that this might be abuse.
[SPEAKER_01]: If her instance, he might be controlling the finances and he might be consistently saying to her, well, look after the money because you know you're really bad with it or you spend too much and we really need to be very tight with a household.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so he's kind of making her feel really bad and she's thinking, I'm really bad with the money.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's right that he looks after it, but actually what he's doing is financially abusing her.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she may not see that as a form of coercive control and so may not even think to go, this is wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's really important to kind of understand these nuances and just understand that, you know, just because myself, I'm educated in this doesn't mean that the person you're talking to is educated in it.
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, or is aware or believes that they're the victim or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, it's just being open and kind and gentle and caring and supportive and do not under any circumstances get frustrated.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: If you know and you've asked to 10 times and she said no, I'm okay and you're getting frustrated and you just want to say to her, look, is going to kill ya?
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't fucking do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do not do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because you're not helping.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't get frustrated.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't get angry.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just be kind and supportive.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you're frustrated with her country, yeah, if you're frustrated and angry, go and talk to someone else that said if you know that a woman is at immediate risk of harm so for instance you've been talking to your neighbor you know something is going on, but she's not telling you and then you hear screaming you're going to call triple zero and you're going to make sure that they know this is an urgent situation so.
[SPEAKER_01]: Definitely if there is a risk of harm and you know that risk of harm is imminent and happening, please call triple zero, don't go soft on that, just make the call because sometimes we have no choice but to make that call.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, listening to this podcast for someone listening to this podcast, is it appropriate in any way to send this to someone you expect
[SPEAKER_00]: in a domestic violence situation in a way to educate them.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's your opinion on that?
[SPEAKER_00]: If you suspect and they've said, yeah, things are a bit funny, but I'm not ready to leave yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you suspect that this person might not understand that they're in a situation like this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that appropriate?
[SPEAKER_00]: What's your perspective on that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Look, I think you have to make the call based on your knowledge of the person, you know, if you give them information, so you might give them a leaflet about coercive control or direct them to a podcast or something.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that really it's going to be, if I'm giving this person this information, is it going to sort of create a barrier between her and me?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it going to a road out trust?
[SPEAKER_01]: So really, I think that you need to take, you need to, you know, kind of use your common sense in that behalf.
[SPEAKER_01]: You might, yeah, look, you might sort of say to someone, hey, I was listening to this podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really great.
[SPEAKER_01]: You should have listened.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's one thing, but kind of, yeah, just again, just common sense, like you've know this person well enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it something that you're
[SPEAKER_01]: or is it going to blow back on me?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I could be the one pipeline to getting her to safety.
[SPEAKER_01]: If she does ask for help, what you're going to do is you're going to direct her to 1-800 respect and if you're going to say to her, are you in physical danger?
[SPEAKER_01]: She says yes, you're going to go with her to the police station.
[SPEAKER_01]: I highly recommend that actually
[SPEAKER_01]: I have going with her to the police station and taking a trusted mail with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll probably get you a better result because police are more likely to listen to a trusted mail than a woman experiencing violence.
[SPEAKER_01]: So really, that's what we want to make a face is of advice to women who are not getting a response from police.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, take a man that you're really trust with you and see what happens and often it works.
[SPEAKER_01]: So do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: As I said, if you're in imminent danger, police triple zero.
[SPEAKER_01]: If they're not an imminent danger or they feel safe enough to kind of start reaching out to organizations, then definitely reach out to 1,800 respect or the national help line in your state or territory, they really need to do that reach out.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's not a lot of use of you doing good, but you can call to get advice.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can definitely call and say, hey,
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been speaking to my neighbour, she's experiencing abuse, water, her steps, so you can do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can make that call, but in order for her to be triage, she's going to need to speak to the service themselves.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's also worth kind of doing, you know, just jumping onto the internet and grabbing some links, like one of the things that I often do is say, well,
[SPEAKER_01]: group, which out to 1-800 respect, but I also recommend reaching out to your women's legal service in your state because they'll be able to give you some insight into your legal options.
[SPEAKER_01]: Often, leaving violence means you need to consider the legal options in terms of property,
[SPEAKER_01]: child access and child safety stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you want to make sure that they know that there is some funded legal advice available as well as reaching out to the, you know, the, the triage line to get connected with all of the services you need.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's wonderful advice.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: You recently said in an ABC interview for woman is in a domestic violence situation to not convince her to leave until she's ready to do mind explaining why for a range of reasons women may not be ready to leave
[SPEAKER_01]: Often safety is the big thing and then the second big thing is often the resources that they have so access to housing and access to finances, woman may not even have any money.
[SPEAKER_01]: Convincing how to live in a situation where it's not ideal is likely to make it worse, and is also likely to end up with her shutting down the communications with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like I said, you have to let her do it on her own time.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can support her and if she asks for help, then that's when you kind of move in together.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, do things like contact a police or what I had to respect and kind of, you know, help her pack up or what all those sort of stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just convincing a woman to leave is it's not going to work in most cases.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just not going to work because she doesn't have the resources.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not going to work.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just going to put her in a position where she doesn't want to talk to you because she feels under pressure to leave and do something.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so just I don't believe that that's the best way to do it that said if you're if you know a guy who you know Is a potential that there are red flags there and you know that there's no physical or severe harm likely Like there's no harm likely to the woman and you've got a really good rapport with him It probably wouldn't hurt to sit down and just have a conversation with him like I wouldn't go in and say hey I noticed you were not giving your partner any money, but what you might go in do is
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, just have a shout to him, hey, how's life?
[SPEAKER_01]: What's going on?
[SPEAKER_01]: How's your relationship?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or you might say, you know, you might talk about something broadly, that doesn't actually accuse him of something.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, having a conversation with the the abuser, if you know that it's red flags, but it's not significantly harmful.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's still, I think it's worth having those conversations, but again, you need to make that based on your knowledge of that person.
[SPEAKER_01]: and your knowledge of the situation, don't go in there like a bullet of guilt.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, yeah, so moving slowly and thoughtfully, which kind of flies in the face of what a lot of people will react to it, thinking these domestic violence situations, everyone is really reactive and quite extreme with their actions.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is the worst thing to do because that can escalate the situation quite significantly.
[SPEAKER_00]: for the people who are listening to this right now and feel angry and helpless.
[SPEAKER_00]: What are a few things that you can direct them to today that a concrete that will have positive outcome for the zeitgeist of women and domestic violence?
[SPEAKER_01]: Look, I think in terms of just generally broadly speaking, people often do feel helpless when a woman is killed or when there's a high profile.
[SPEAKER_01]: case in the media.
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things they often say to me is, how can I help?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, often the one way that you can help is having conversations with people around you about what's going on, what you've heard of, about the case, you know, having conversations just keeping the conversation flowing, engaged with appropriate media.
[SPEAKER_01]: So media that ethically reports on violence against women is my suggestion.
[SPEAKER_01]: So engage, get your information from them, engage with local charities, see if you can
[SPEAKER_01]: Provided donation, join rallies and visuals were possible and also just yeah having conversations with people around you and it's often It's some of the small things are the most important.
[SPEAKER_01]: So one of those things is having that gentle conversation with someone you know Maybe it risk like that's a really big activism for me activism doesn't have to be what I do activism The most important activism is a small activism and they make the biggest difference
[SPEAKER_01]: having a conversation with someone you know who's at risk, reaching out, offering support, knowing a woman for instance is homeless, offering her a bed, knowing a woman doesn't have any money for food, giving her some money so she can buy food.
[SPEAKER_01]: I always tell people,
[SPEAKER_01]: If you see a woman on the street and she's asking for money, just give it to her and don't attach any strings to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just know that when you give her that money, she will use it for what she needs most in that moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that what she needs most might be a bed.
[SPEAKER_01]: It might be hamburger.
[SPEAKER_01]: It might be a pack of cigarettes, but that's what she needs most right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that can be one of the biggest activism that you can ever do is just giving up support without strings attached.
[SPEAKER_01]: allowing autonomy and respecting the woman in the moment of what she needs with her intelligence and her lived experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly, respecting her.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, beautiful.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to link everything below.
[SPEAKER_00]: But are there anything you wanted to leave with anything you wanted to point to?
[SPEAKER_01]: I just would love if you could just point to or to start people to listen to the She Madness podcast to kind of understand to listen to the stories of women and girls lost to Femeside and to understand our moments in her life where she could have been saved.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh,
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy day to listen to this episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you loved it, please remember to like, subscribe and send to a loved one.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to learn more from our quaman, please check out the website at arquaman.com.au where you can find a pothora of offerings like charts, master classes, courses, and organic clothing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I hope you have a really beautiful morning, afternoon or evening wherever you are in the world and I will see you on the next episode.