WEBVTT 00:00.171 --> 00:10.739 [SPEAKER_01]: This episode of True's Table is brought to you by our NAACP Image Award-nominated book, True's Table, Black Women's Musings on Life, Love, and Liberation. 00:11.140 --> 00:12.661 [SPEAKER_01]: Get it where all books are sold. 00:16.150 --> 00:17.491 [SPEAKER_02]: Brothers, y'all all right? 00:17.871 --> 00:21.114 [SPEAKER_02]: If this is your first time at Truth's Table, welcome to the table. 00:21.314 --> 00:23.856 [SPEAKER_02]: And you've been sitting at the table with us all these years. 00:24.116 --> 00:27.278 [SPEAKER_02]: We are so grateful that you have been listening to us through these years. 00:27.338 --> 00:33.803 [SPEAKER_02]: And we are inviting you to partner with us and support our work at patreon.com slash Truth's Table. 00:34.083 --> 00:37.065 [SPEAKER_02]: Now pull up a chair and have a seat at the table with us. 00:37.845 --> 00:39.387 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey y'all, welcome to Truth's Table. 00:39.427 --> 00:40.868 [SPEAKER_02]: May we ask a culture for grace to truth. 00:40.968 --> 00:42.169 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm a camany, and I'm Christina. 00:43.038 --> 00:45.499 [SPEAKER_02]: This table is built by black woman and for black woman. 00:45.519 --> 00:46.560 [SPEAKER_02]: So welcome to the table. 00:46.580 --> 00:47.840 [SPEAKER_02]: See how you're doing, girl. 00:48.121 --> 00:48.701 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no. 00:49.461 --> 00:50.062 [SPEAKER_01]: Decently. 00:50.642 --> 00:51.242 [SPEAKER_01]: Decently. 00:51.322 --> 00:55.684 [SPEAKER_01]: That's what many people lately, because you know, people ask you that question, and you know, they just kind of throw it out there. 00:55.704 --> 00:57.485 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, well, I'm gonna let you know that it's wild time. 00:57.505 --> 00:59.946 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm gonna say, Decently today, how are you doing, my friend? 00:59.966 --> 01:00.487 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't call it. 01:00.507 --> 01:01.147 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, I'm so mad. 01:01.187 --> 01:09.151 [SPEAKER_01]: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha 01:10.730 --> 01:15.691 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like the only way to answer questions is to like reach deep into the historic black church. 01:15.711 --> 01:21.853 [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like the black culture bag would see this pull out. 01:21.953 --> 01:22.833 [SPEAKER_02]: Can't call it done. 01:23.233 --> 01:24.294 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll let it do. 01:24.654 --> 01:26.274 [SPEAKER_01]: It's all. 01:26.694 --> 01:28.835 [SPEAKER_01]: Jules, I'm like he's a little in the middle of the wheel. 01:28.875 --> 01:28.895 [SPEAKER_01]: I 01:31.676 --> 01:32.436 [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly. 01:33.237 --> 01:34.037 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god. 01:34.517 --> 01:36.458 [SPEAKER_02]: There's more 26 is given back. 01:36.978 --> 01:45.002 [SPEAKER_02]: I am glad to be at the table with you and I'm really excited about this episode because it's a behind the book episode y'all. 01:46.282 --> 01:58.826 [SPEAKER_02]: And we are so honored to have our sister Yana Connor at the Tainbowl to talk about her book, her debut book, actually, leaving beyond understanding. 01:59.386 --> 02:02.247 [SPEAKER_02]: Do we have our work of forgiveness, God's way? 02:02.267 --> 02:03.647 [SPEAKER_02]: Because you know, there's a way. 02:04.327 --> 02:06.568 [SPEAKER_00]: That seems right to what may happen in our way. 02:08.023 --> 02:10.346 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, all the way really, yeah, exactly. 02:10.606 --> 02:13.490 [SPEAKER_02]: This guy's all in and there's all the way, you know? 02:14.050 --> 02:15.732 [SPEAKER_02]: You know how they, the all the way in. 02:15.833 --> 02:17.394 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I'm just, it's a mess. 02:17.775 --> 02:21.780 [SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, I'm so honored to have Yana Connor at the table. 02:22.440 --> 02:23.101 [SPEAKER_02]: We'll come see us. 02:24.382 --> 02:25.643 [SPEAKER_00]: it's so good to be here. 02:25.943 --> 02:27.284 [SPEAKER_00]: It really, really is. 02:28.225 --> 02:52.480 [SPEAKER_00]: I've been listening to y'all for a really long time and I remember when your first episode came out I was a seminary student and you know I was just reading all these books that were written by people who don't look like us and you all were just like such a breath of fresh air and just kind of became this picture of what's possible and really sort of made me feel more valued in this space. 02:52.500 --> 02:53.361 [SPEAKER_00]: So thank you so much 02:53.901 --> 02:56.764 [SPEAKER_00]: for the work that you've done throughout the years. 02:56.784 --> 02:58.005 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I've been greatly enriched. 02:58.045 --> 03:00.987 [SPEAKER_00]: My friend group has been greatly enriched by what you do. 03:01.528 --> 03:02.449 [SPEAKER_02]: It's good. 03:02.509 --> 03:03.630 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, welcome to the table. 03:03.650 --> 03:05.131 [SPEAKER_02]: You want to thank you so much for that. 03:05.912 --> 03:08.174 [SPEAKER_02]: We receive, you know, that honor. 03:08.214 --> 03:09.635 [SPEAKER_02]: Those accolades, them flowers. 03:09.655 --> 03:10.576 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, sister. 03:10.596 --> 03:11.316 [SPEAKER_02]: You know. 03:11.457 --> 03:11.937 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah. 03:11.957 --> 03:12.738 [SPEAKER_00]: That well deserved. 03:15.260 --> 03:18.262 [SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't hard on it, I was going to tell you that. 03:20.377 --> 03:25.280 [SPEAKER_02]: but before we go forward, let me tell the sisters about you, all right? 03:26.100 --> 03:32.644 [SPEAKER_02]: Yana Janay Connor is a writer and Bible teacher who helps others think well about faith and culture. 03:33.024 --> 03:40.449 [SPEAKER_02]: By God's grace, she has served in full-time ministry for over 15 years, forming disciples in developing leaders within the local church. 03:40.789 --> 03:44.271 [SPEAKER_02]: Her work is shaped by a deep love for the church and a commitment to scripture, 03:44.671 --> 03:48.574 [SPEAKER_02]: spiritual formation and guiding others from brokenness toward wholeness in Christ. 03:49.015 --> 04:02.506 [SPEAKER_02]: She has contributed to projects with the Jude III project, including through the eyes of color and courageous conversations which foster honest, generative dialogue around belief, identity, and meaning within historically marginalized communities. 04:02.906 --> 04:12.993 [SPEAKER_02]: Her book living beyond offense, doing the hard work of forgiveness, forgiveness, God's way, offers a practical, hope-filled path toward emotional healing, and freedom. 04:13.053 --> 04:15.354 [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome, welcome to the table, Yana. 04:16.015 --> 04:16.955 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's right. 04:16.975 --> 04:26.641 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so you need to be into it, because, you know what I was saying, we're going to talk about, you know, how you can't remember about it, we know what you say, double did, okay, you know, 04:33.357 --> 04:35.378 [SPEAKER_02]: You rebooked and books read you. 04:35.518 --> 04:37.440 [SPEAKER_02]: You write books and books write you. 04:37.840 --> 04:40.982 [SPEAKER_02]: Just like when we are about to preach a sermon, Salmon's preach us. 04:41.402 --> 04:48.286 [SPEAKER_02]: So please talk to us about the way living be on the fence, read you says I am curious about 04:49.347 --> 04:57.731 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, the spiritual interwork that the Holy Ghost, who quietly will be in order for you to write this book? 04:58.131 --> 05:00.032 [SPEAKER_02]: Who did you have to forgive? 05:00.472 --> 05:01.873 [SPEAKER_02]: Who are you still having? 05:01.893 --> 05:12.258 [SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, 05:12.662 --> 05:13.122 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yes. 05:13.422 --> 05:19.503 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yes, saying yes to writing this book was really an act of surrender. 05:20.803 --> 05:22.964 [SPEAKER_00]: I remember I went to the publisher. 05:23.364 --> 05:27.865 [SPEAKER_00]: We had a conversation about a few other topics and somehow we ended on for giving this. 05:27.905 --> 05:30.185 [SPEAKER_00]: And at first, I was just really excited to have a book deal. 05:30.205 --> 05:31.605 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh, this is an answer to prayer. 05:32.165 --> 05:33.846 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's a dream come true. 05:34.706 --> 05:37.086 [SPEAKER_00]: So to speak, and then getting to this 05:41.407 --> 05:47.310 [SPEAKER_00]: on forgiveness, like, like, I don't, like, you might want to count up the cost for this. 05:47.330 --> 05:51.792 [SPEAKER_00]: And I even remember telling my mom that was going to write a book on forgiveness and her. 05:52.312 --> 05:53.512 [SPEAKER_00]: So it'd be like, really? 05:53.852 --> 05:57.514 [SPEAKER_00]: Because my mom knew that forgiveness wasn't a strong suit for me. 05:58.114 --> 06:03.176 [SPEAKER_00]: It was something that I really struggled to do particularly with my biological father. 06:03.236 --> 06:06.918 [SPEAKER_00]: And she would often have to say, like, Yana, you, you have to get to a place. 06:07.398 --> 06:09.139 [SPEAKER_00]: where you you forgive him. 06:09.539 --> 06:15.080 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I knew that I was out of my league with this book and so I didn't write this book from a place of strength. 06:15.160 --> 06:17.181 [SPEAKER_00]: I wrote this book from a place of utter weakness. 06:17.881 --> 06:22.823 [SPEAKER_00]: It's very much me working out my faith with fear and trembling. 06:23.283 --> 06:37.224 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, as I'm writing this book, and there were about five people that I knew I would have to go back to To either acts for forgiveness or do some sort of relational repair and it's interesting because I remember 06:38.145 --> 07:00.705 [SPEAKER_00]: when they sent me the list of like book titles and living beyond offense was the last title there and it prompted me to call a friend like I was in my car reading and it prompted me to call one of the five people that I needed to to reconcile with and so thankfully I've had all those conversations but it was it was painful 07:01.545 --> 07:06.930 [SPEAKER_00]: to sort of go back to places in my story that it was like I've already worked that out in counseling. 07:06.950 --> 07:15.497 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to like have to revisit that, but then also to like physically go back to people and have these really difficult, hard conversations. 07:15.557 --> 07:23.083 [SPEAKER_00]: But my conviction around Jesus teaching is unforgiveness really grew in this process of of writing this book. 07:23.423 --> 07:24.384 [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm. 07:24.404 --> 07:24.885 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that. 07:25.545 --> 07:28.388 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and what a heavy and hard work, right, to lift. 07:28.448 --> 07:32.472 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was interesting, because I mean, you have a book that's called, Let me be on a fence, right? 07:32.492 --> 07:35.616 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it kind of puts a spotlight on you like, Are you going to live beyond a fence? 07:36.076 --> 07:40.200 [SPEAKER_01]: But as you were talking, I thought to myself, If we go out publicly and say we're Christians, 07:41.061 --> 07:45.083 [SPEAKER_01]: then we really are like the authors of a book called Living Beyond a Fence as well. 07:45.123 --> 07:50.487 [SPEAKER_01]: I just think that we have not been, we're the double we're supposed to do on that and you're leading the way. 07:50.967 --> 08:00.793 [SPEAKER_01]: But honestly, if we put ourselves out here as public Christians, then we really have to kind of embody what you're talking about in the spotlight as on us too, just that you've let us here. 08:03.354 --> 08:25.581 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so grateful that you will share part of your personal narrative and I think this contribution to our faith is so critically important right now and I think it's easy when we think about a forgive is what's it's hard to forgive but we think about it in terms of relationally like an issue with a person but you know we talk a lot here about systemic issues. 08:27.142 --> 08:41.190 [SPEAKER_01]: and social issues, and I'm just curious about how you're wrestling in terms of figuring out the focus of your work, from that kind of personal relational and that systemic impact. 08:42.673 --> 08:55.846 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, um, it's so interesting that I was talking to my mom about this this morning because I had a feeling really this question would be erased, um, and it's something that I had to know about. 08:55.946 --> 08:59.510 [SPEAKER_01]: I had chewed it up, but it's something that is used to be that you know. 09:01.151 --> 09:04.272 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's something I've been wrestling with because you know, what is it? 09:04.353 --> 09:15.758 [SPEAKER_00]: Parallel social relationships that we have with people that we don't actually know, but maybe they do something that is offensive to us and so how do we sort of navigate that? 09:16.078 --> 09:29.644 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think when we talk about sort of like the political climate and the decisions that are being made, you know, like we're not in personal relationship with those people and so how do we respond and I think that kind of moves us 09:30.945 --> 09:38.710 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just talking about forgiveness to like, what does it mean to be a peacemaker or what does it mean to as I talk about in the book to be a shalom maker. 09:38.990 --> 09:40.751 [SPEAKER_00]: And I actually think about more to Kai. 09:41.652 --> 09:42.713 [SPEAKER_00]: I think about more to Kai. 09:43.253 --> 09:49.157 [SPEAKER_00]: And so the eat it goes out that all of the Jews are going to be killed and more to Kai. 09:49.677 --> 10:02.084 [SPEAKER_00]: goes out into the streets and does this public limit where he tears off his clothes and there's ashes and then the text says that there are other people in the community that that join him. 10:02.688 --> 10:09.412 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's an act of protest, it's this public lament that something unjust is happening. 10:09.813 --> 10:12.995 [SPEAKER_00]: And then he adds to that lament advocacy. 10:13.275 --> 10:23.601 [SPEAKER_00]: And so then he goes to Esther's like, hey, sis, you know, I know you up there living your, you know, like, but we need to, like, we need your advocacy in this moment. 10:23.721 --> 10:28.164 [SPEAKER_00]: And then they, you know, do what they need to do in order to say the people of Israel. 10:28.904 --> 10:48.680 [SPEAKER_00]: And I wonder if that is more of a posture because I don't want to communicate particularly through the book is that we just kind of roll over and act as though these things are not important or that forgiveness means that we don't hold people accountable that we don't say, we don't have heart conversations. 10:48.700 --> 10:51.463 [SPEAKER_00]: I think we actually do need to do those things. 10:51.483 --> 10:54.385 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that is actually a part of the process of forgiveness. 10:55.346 --> 11:10.048 [SPEAKER_00]: And so but in these instances I try to be more like a mortic eye, you know, where I am going to limit I'm going to join and buy other people to join me in that limits and then I'm going to seek advocacy wherever wherever I can and yeah, so good. 11:10.619 --> 11:12.781 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that's, that is a great example. 11:12.821 --> 11:20.910 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I was reading and I was thinking about your chapter about the lesson, or let me get it right now. 11:21.070 --> 11:21.531 [SPEAKER_02]: Hold on. 11:22.351 --> 11:27.116 [SPEAKER_02]: Or the slow makers from, let me be on the, by the book, or come on. 11:28.818 --> 11:31.099 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, because we all got somebody for you. 11:31.299 --> 11:32.820 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, we need to get worship. 11:33.100 --> 11:34.300 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I don't get it. 11:34.320 --> 11:36.441 [SPEAKER_02]: This is, you know, we are not somebody for you. 11:36.721 --> 11:39.262 [SPEAKER_02]: We can see them against people, people be sitting against us. 11:39.342 --> 11:40.922 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 11:41.683 --> 11:44.004 [SPEAKER_02]: So blessed are the Shalom makers. 11:44.264 --> 11:47.745 [SPEAKER_02]: Can you talk about, because we know, you know, Jesus said, you know, 11:47.905 --> 11:53.747 [SPEAKER_02]: Peace makers, can you talk about the nuances of Shalom? 11:53.787 --> 12:00.909 [SPEAKER_02]: So that people can really understand what it means, what it requires of us to be Shalom makers. 12:00.969 --> 12:01.850 [SPEAKER_02]: I love that time. 12:02.590 --> 12:06.791 [SPEAKER_02]: So can you break that down for our listeners? 12:06.951 --> 12:11.053 [SPEAKER_02]: So that they can understand how they can join in Shalom making. 12:11.909 --> 12:19.851 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, as Shalom is this, this, this, this built-in idea of of wholeness, it's this idea of thriving. 12:19.871 --> 12:25.992 [SPEAKER_00]: I think the best picture of Shalom that we see in the Bible is in Genesis 1 and 2. 12:26.353 --> 12:32.094 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's why that staying glass on the front is there and there's this kind of giving this picture of of the garden. 12:32.834 --> 12:36.155 [SPEAKER_00]: where everything was as it was supposed to be. 12:36.195 --> 12:48.900 [SPEAKER_00]: There was complete harmony, there wasn't any conflict, there wasn't any anxiety, people weren't self-conscious about themselves and everybody was able to love one another fully and people were able to be safely loved. 12:48.920 --> 12:58.203 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we don't know anything of that reality, but now as Christians, our goal should be to partner with God and what he's doing in the world and try to bring 13:02.264 --> 13:15.673 [SPEAKER_00]: And so one of the things, one of the verses that really guides me is in Ephesians chapter 1, verse 10, where it says, this is the mystery of God's will to unite all things in the heavens and the earth in Christ. 13:16.013 --> 13:26.440 [SPEAKER_00]: And so this, this for me is like, wow, this is what God has been up to since, since Genesis 3, since everything unravels since Shalom unraveled that God is seeking to bring all of that back. 13:27.320 --> 13:27.900 [SPEAKER_00]: together. 13:27.980 --> 13:41.926 [SPEAKER_00]: And so for me, it's like how do we partner with this thing that God is doing in the world through, through Christ, to reconcile us back into relationship with Him, but also back into right relationship with with other people. 13:42.026 --> 13:44.007 [SPEAKER_00]: However, I grew up in a context where 13:44.367 --> 13:48.769 [SPEAKER_00]: Peace making are, you know, really sound like peace keeping, you know? 13:49.369 --> 14:09.636 [SPEAKER_00]: I come from a home that's very conflict-avoided, and so, you know, we would have conflict and people would go back to their rooms, they would get over their feelings, and then they would come back out and just sort of act like everything was normal, and that's kind of how I saw people dealing with conflict, but conflict isn't our harmony or show-home isn't the 14:13.958 --> 14:18.981 [SPEAKER_00]: harmony and sometimes in order to achieve that harmony, we have to have hard conversations. 14:19.381 --> 14:21.182 [SPEAKER_00]: We have to say that hurt me. 14:21.242 --> 14:31.006 [SPEAKER_00]: We have to call out sin because the goal is to bring people further into shalom, to bring people into the ways of Jesus. 14:31.026 --> 14:37.310 [SPEAKER_00]: And so what you are doing when you are sending against me is actually revealing that you're not aligned with Christ. 14:37.790 --> 14:39.110 [SPEAKER_00]: And so for me, forgiveness 14:40.391 --> 14:54.620 [SPEAKER_00]: so much more than me trying to reconcile with this person or me trying to just obey Jesus, but it's me actually trying to make this appeal like, brother, sister, come home to Christ. 14:54.680 --> 14:57.002 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't continue to live in this way. 14:57.342 --> 15:06.508 [SPEAKER_00]: And so for me, that's what it means to be a shallow maker is to have those hard conversations in partnership with offering people for goodness. 15:06.967 --> 15:07.467 [SPEAKER_02]: That's good. 15:07.567 --> 15:09.868 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, um, thank you for breaking that down. 15:09.888 --> 15:20.110 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you mentioned, you know, peacekeeping and how, you know, cello making wasn't quite, you know, natural in your own family dynamics. 15:20.290 --> 15:21.350 [SPEAKER_02]: We've got to be learned, right? 15:21.370 --> 15:23.691 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, there's something we have, you know, many of us have to learn. 15:24.351 --> 15:27.352 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, you know, in the beginning of the book, you talk a bit about 15:28.132 --> 15:34.414 [SPEAKER_02]: the context of which you're in, and the multi ethnic church, COVID-19's happening, we're seeing all of that. 15:34.834 --> 15:48.997 [SPEAKER_02]: The racial reckoning, or uprising, however you want to describe it, and you're just thinking, it sounds like there's some frustration, you know, within the multi church context, you know, that you're in at that time. 15:49.357 --> 15:55.839 [SPEAKER_02]: Can you talk about what that, you know, what that peacekeeping or cello making look like in that context for you, 15:57.399 --> 15:59.542 [SPEAKER_02]: We out, I'm just, I'm just kidding. 15:59.602 --> 16:06.573 [SPEAKER_02]: I have, you know, sisters at the table and brothers in the standing room such that are still in multi-ethnic churches or who have left. 16:06.593 --> 16:11.981 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm curious about how that looked, how living beyond offense manifested in that context. 16:12.955 --> 16:16.438 [SPEAKER_00]: I was hard, it was really, really hard. 16:16.478 --> 16:25.566 [SPEAKER_00]: It was painful there were days where I would be in meetings and we were having really difficult conversations about people's lives, right? 16:25.646 --> 16:29.430 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we were having difficult conversations about Breonna Taylor and George Floyd. 16:29.470 --> 16:33.634 [SPEAKER_00]: Like we were having really difficult conversations about that and how to navigate it. 16:34.314 --> 16:58.563 [SPEAKER_00]: the timeliness in which we need to address these things within the church and even amongst our staff and there were conversations about what we could and what we could not post on social media and it was really really hard and really painful and I remember being in a meeting and feeling like one of my wife brothers and sisters like just kind of like wanting us to offer 17:00.984 --> 17:09.132 [SPEAKER_00]: And I did not want to, like, their points were valid, but I was just too hurt to meet them with compassion. 17:09.432 --> 17:16.038 [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, my need for you to meet me with compassion is greater than I would perceive your need to be. 17:16.519 --> 17:20.263 [SPEAKER_00]: And I remember sitting in that meeting and being tempted to shut down. 17:21.278 --> 17:22.678 [SPEAKER_00]: just being tempted to shut down. 17:22.698 --> 17:25.960 [SPEAKER_00]: I just feel like, you know what, whatever, I've done with it. 17:26.480 --> 17:31.381 [SPEAKER_00]: But then the Lord just saying to me, y'all, blessed it are the peacemakers for day. 17:31.441 --> 17:33.642 [SPEAKER_00]: She'll be called the children of God. 17:33.662 --> 17:37.063 [SPEAKER_00]: And I told the Lord, I was like, I do not want to make peace right now. 17:37.243 --> 17:39.764 [SPEAKER_00]: I do not want to do that right now. 17:40.084 --> 17:43.685 [SPEAKER_00]: Because I don't want to lose another argument, you know? 17:44.105 --> 17:48.707 [SPEAKER_00]: And the Lord was just like, you don't lose anything when you choose to be like me. 17:49.247 --> 18:04.588 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we use to be like, it goes back to this place of like, uh, there's this, there's this phrase called core um day of, uh, and it talks about living before the face of the Lord and at the end of the day is before the Lord's face that I live. 18:05.008 --> 18:27.787 [SPEAKER_00]: And so coming to this place of like, I don't know how they're going to respond to this, and even though I don't think that they are deserving of this, how do I show up in this moment and be like Jesus, how do I meet them where they are, but without sort of like coddling or affirming things that I can't affirm, but just saying like, you know what, you have a valid point. 18:29.352 --> 18:30.613 [SPEAKER_00]: We're not seeing you rightly. 18:30.973 --> 18:34.595 [SPEAKER_00]: We've made you, you know, the villain in this story. 18:35.076 --> 18:41.219 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe we need to back up a little bit, you know, to see your humanity as well. 18:41.580 --> 18:48.124 [SPEAKER_00]: And for the first time in that conversation, we were able to like have some forward progress where they were able to then hear us. 18:48.464 --> 18:54.728 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's not work that you want to have to do, but sometimes it's work that we have to do in order to really make peace. 18:57.014 --> 18:59.736 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, that's at the heart of actual real anti-racism work. 18:59.756 --> 19:06.501 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think there are lots of folks who just who hate racism, and I do too, but there's a difference between hating racism and being an anti-racist. 19:07.421 --> 19:14.707 [SPEAKER_01]: You actually have to do the work, and you have to have the spiritual fortitude and skills to stay the course. 19:15.147 --> 19:18.609 [SPEAKER_01]: And from a Christian perspective, as you were talking, I was like, well, who are we talking to? 19:19.370 --> 19:21.151 [SPEAKER_01]: Are we talking to this white guy who's getting them out of 19:23.180 --> 19:39.128 [SPEAKER_01]: which could be true, or we also talking to a blood-bought brother in Christ, and if that is true, if that is true, then that shifts a lot of our own personal responsibility to actually stay in the conversation if we can, right? 19:39.148 --> 19:40.409 [SPEAKER_01]: If it's our calling to do that. 19:40.449 --> 19:50.574 [SPEAKER_01]: So, we're going to press pause right here and think about man, how hard that he is, y'all, let that memory they did, you listen to some commercials, and we will be right back learning all about living 19:55.883 --> 20:05.395 [SPEAKER_01]: Our NAACP Image Award-nominated book, Truth Table, Black Women's Musings on Life, Love, and Liberation, is making waves and shifting culture. 20:06.156 --> 20:13.486 [SPEAKER_01]: I close this book feeling like I had just partaken in a multi-course meal, filled with grace and the courage to carry on. 20:14.301 --> 20:17.264 [SPEAKER_01]: and I believe you'll finish this book feeling the same way. 20:17.925 --> 20:20.308 [SPEAKER_01]: Morgan Harper Nichols, Artists and Poet. 20:20.849 --> 20:27.877 [SPEAKER_01]: Buy Truths Table, Black Women's Musings on Life-Love and Liberation, at our website, or wherever books are sold. 20:29.307 --> 20:37.469 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we are back at the table, and I mean, we are, you know, I'm in my feelings right now because you know, you know, you're supposed to do right. 20:37.569 --> 20:42.891 [SPEAKER_01]: You're nervous if I was to do right, but the book is like, hey, but are you gonna do right? 20:42.951 --> 20:45.011 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know you're supposed to, but are you gonna do right? 20:45.031 --> 20:57.155 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, again, the people are gonna go about this book, but one of the things I think I wrestle with from my own, my own need to forgive, there's like, I gotta list the folks I need to forgive. 20:58.675 --> 21:08.740 [SPEAKER_01]: And although I'm counseling someone, or mentoring someone, or in conversation with someone who's caring a lot of unforgiveness, I think that we are inclined to say very quickly. 21:09.680 --> 21:10.620 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm good. 21:10.660 --> 21:11.581 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I've forgiven that. 21:12.770 --> 21:15.492 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, but your image, you don't match that. 21:15.532 --> 21:20.796 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, you know, you know, and again, you can be mad about what happened. 21:20.816 --> 21:25.439 [SPEAKER_01]: But I mean, it's like a fog that we can kind of live live in. 21:25.459 --> 21:26.340 [SPEAKER_01]: And we can't see it. 21:26.360 --> 21:33.465 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think we can see ourselves well when we are unforgiving and we're harboring like a roster of faults against us. 21:33.945 --> 21:35.486 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm curious, we'll give it all away. 21:35.807 --> 21:39.950 [SPEAKER_01]: But give us like one or two indications of actual freedom. 21:40.670 --> 21:41.351 [SPEAKER_01]: from forgiveness. 21:41.371 --> 21:46.017 [SPEAKER_01]: How can we, how can we know beyond our talk that we say to ourselves? 21:46.037 --> 21:58.813 [SPEAKER_01]: Because the question that you do, that actually we have forgiven, like one or two examples of maybe in your own story or as you have discerned God's word, where you know you have been free by forgiveness. 21:59.831 --> 22:16.137 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think it's when one marker is when you're anger sort of is coupled with grief and that you've actually done the hard work of acknowledging how this person has hurt you. 22:17.117 --> 22:22.339 [SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of times we just say, oh, I've forgiven them because we just want to move on, right? 22:22.379 --> 22:23.940 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't want to sit in the heart. 22:24.320 --> 22:28.902 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't want to actually acknowledge and admit the ways in which they have hurt. 22:29.502 --> 22:50.468 [SPEAKER_00]: us because if we do that they make us feel more vulnerable because that's really what happens when someone sends against us they kind of take away our power and so in essence we're trying to get that power back by saying like I'm good I didn't need them anyway you know I'm ago you know live my life and I've done that like I've totally done that before but it's because I don't want 22:50.988 --> 22:52.710 [SPEAKER_00]: to deal with the ache. 22:52.750 --> 22:55.532 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to deal with the pain of what has happened. 22:55.592 --> 23:11.366 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, until we have actually honestly acknowledged how they have heard us, what the impact of it is, and our anger and ours met with grief and lament, I would say maybe we haven't actually gotten to a place where we have forgiven them. 23:11.786 --> 23:12.787 [SPEAKER_00]: I think another 23:13.808 --> 23:22.714 [SPEAKER_00]: another marker that I would maybe say is like how we talk about it, you know, and how we talk about them, right? 23:23.054 --> 23:27.457 [SPEAKER_00]: And so are we still able to acknowledge that they are someone who's created an image of God? 23:28.158 --> 23:36.583 [SPEAKER_00]: Are we able to see them as our fellow servant as Jesus talks about in the parable of the unforgiving servant? 23:36.603 --> 23:38.905 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's so interesting that he's like 23:39.565 --> 23:45.511 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you had a dead and I paid you and you are I forgive you and you couldn't forgive your fellow servant. 23:45.531 --> 24:00.546 [SPEAKER_00]: You couldn't forgive this person who like you is contending with this sin nature who like you is living in a broken and fallen world and who is in utter need of my grace in order to do anything that is that is good in the world. 24:00.606 --> 24:02.288 [SPEAKER_00]: You couldn't forgive your fellow 24:02.848 --> 24:03.288 [SPEAKER_00]: servant. 24:03.589 --> 24:10.434 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's when we're unable to see their humanity and we're unable to see their need. 24:10.454 --> 24:21.462 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's why I say like for again, this is a merciful decision that it kind of starts with this coming from this place of mercy of understanding that they too are a human with a story. 24:21.482 --> 24:25.064 [SPEAKER_00]: Now that doesn't mean that we'd negate what they did, what they did was wrong. 24:25.444 --> 24:26.345 [SPEAKER_00]: But we acknowledge 24:32.930 --> 24:39.418 [SPEAKER_00]: And so now it's like how we talk about them, maybe should reflect that a bit. 24:39.458 --> 24:40.019 [SPEAKER_02]: That's really good. 24:41.080 --> 24:47.047 [SPEAKER_02]: You're talking about, you know, how you can tell that somebody's really been freed, you know, by forgetting this. 24:47.107 --> 24:50.490 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm curious about how, since we're on the discernment track, 24:52.172 --> 25:03.516 [SPEAKER_02]: How do you discern when, um, when, uh, when there's two questions really, but I'm curious about how do you discern when forgiveness is being weaponized? 25:03.997 --> 25:14.141 [SPEAKER_02]: Because that is one thing that is often weaponized either, systemically, right, where black folks are always as meds of the forgive and whatnot, and it's a really powerful thing. 25:14.581 --> 25:26.087 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, when it happens, we saw that with the Charleston 9 and Dylan Rufan, what I thought was very powerful and really it's stunning to people, right, and stop them in the tragedy and stop the racism. 25:26.447 --> 25:29.049 [SPEAKER_02]: But you know, but they've been released, you know, from it. 25:29.229 --> 25:40.335 [SPEAKER_02]: But then, but let's talk about even in in relationship, right, in friendship, in relationship, um, in the church context, outside the church context, just how can we discern when 25:41.095 --> 25:43.876 [SPEAKER_02]: forgiveness is being weaponized. 25:43.976 --> 25:45.457 [SPEAKER_02]: And use the answer to a Christian. 25:46.297 --> 25:50.879 [SPEAKER_02]: So shouldn't you forgive, you know, like how can we discern when that's being weaponized? 25:50.899 --> 25:55.641 [SPEAKER_02]: And talk about the process of forgiveness, please. 25:56.141 --> 26:05.328 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, I think it's, it's very weaponized when it, when it, it just sort of like fails to acknowledge what that person's experience. 26:05.368 --> 26:05.648 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right. 26:05.888 --> 26:06.169 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 26:06.769 --> 26:09.651 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's the, you just need to get over it. 26:10.132 --> 26:20.460 [SPEAKER_00]: What this person just deeply wounded me and significantly altered parts of my reality and I'm just supposed to. 26:21.360 --> 26:22.620 [SPEAKER_00]: like get over it. 26:22.860 --> 26:29.562 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think when people say things like that, they are they are failing to acknowledge your your your pain. 26:29.862 --> 26:36.944 [SPEAKER_00]: I think also in the church context, you know, it's this, you know, if you're in a black church context, you can be in this honor sort of space. 26:36.984 --> 26:41.085 [SPEAKER_00]: And so if they are a leader, if they are a minister, then you are told like, 26:41.425 --> 26:45.529 [SPEAKER_00]: that you still need to treat them in a particular way, right? 26:45.549 --> 26:49.872 [SPEAKER_00]: You still need to address them as past or so, and so, or a minister or a prophet is this. 26:50.312 --> 26:59.340 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, I don't know if I need to do that because they're saying against me, has some sort of warranted that I treat them differently. 26:59.920 --> 27:02.822 [SPEAKER_00]: that I don't continue to to honor them in that way. 27:02.842 --> 27:11.728 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's not like we take away those quote unquote titles as a way to to punish them, but also to just say like, no, I do not relate to you in that way. 27:12.248 --> 27:16.871 [SPEAKER_02]: You might be somebody else's best, but you know, I'm like, what I don't 27:18.352 --> 27:20.733 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't relate to you in that way. 27:20.773 --> 27:35.198 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think anytime, even it's like the sense of entitlement so from the person who's offended you, they have the sense of entitlement, that to me is a warning sign that they probably don't fully understand what they did, right? 27:35.258 --> 27:37.139 [SPEAKER_00]: It's because people don't want to sit with that. 27:37.579 --> 27:43.361 [SPEAKER_00]: If someone has sent a gift to you, they don't want to sit with that because it's going to bring them into a place of maybe shame. 27:43.881 --> 27:51.767 [SPEAKER_00]: and you'll mess with their sense of their ideal self and that's really, really hard work to do. 27:51.787 --> 27:55.090 [SPEAKER_00]: This is why I so important for us to look for repentance. 27:55.510 --> 28:02.696 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, in our Fender and to pay attention to their confession because it helps us to understand. 28:03.616 --> 28:10.000 [SPEAKER_00]: If they really understand what they did, but if they're starting to take on a victim mentality and saying like you're not caring for me You're not loving me. 28:10.040 --> 28:10.980 [SPEAKER_00]: You're not forgiving me. 28:11.361 --> 28:22.087 [SPEAKER_00]: Then they may not understand fully what they did and I'll say this even though Jesus commands us to forgive and that is the biblical expectation of Christians We all have to forgive nobody 28:23.027 --> 28:27.410 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, it is an undeserving gift that we extend to other people. 28:27.750 --> 28:30.451 [SPEAKER_00]: And so for anyone to have sort of a sense of entitlement to it. 28:30.471 --> 28:34.934 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that that is a warning sign as well. 28:35.214 --> 28:39.677 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I know you act like what is the process of forgiveness. 28:39.697 --> 28:48.662 [SPEAKER_00]: I do talk about it in the book, but I think it starts with honestly acknowledging in some instances you might need to also search your own heart. 28:48.802 --> 28:50.723 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, see if there's a blank in your own eye. 28:51.544 --> 28:54.026 [SPEAKER_00]: that you need to address. 28:54.426 --> 29:03.134 [SPEAKER_00]: And then in the book I talk about sort of answering the question of what am I forgiving them of and what does it look like for me to forgive them? 29:03.294 --> 29:03.635 [SPEAKER_00]: Right? 29:03.955 --> 29:07.078 [SPEAKER_00]: And so and I think this is kind of where Dr. Emerson, you just talked about. 29:07.378 --> 29:15.889 [SPEAKER_00]: like how do we sort of maybe qualify what we're doing when it comes to forgiveness and this has been huge for me. 29:17.051 --> 29:21.677 [SPEAKER_00]: So I acknowledge what this person has done and then I have to decide what does it mean for me to forgive you. 29:21.717 --> 29:24.981 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's what is happening with 29:26.122 --> 29:33.547 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's the Charleston night is that they all made a decision about what it would mean for them to forgive them. 29:33.868 --> 29:39.631 [SPEAKER_00]: And so Reverend Anthony, every time he was before Dylan Roof, he presents the gospel to him. 29:39.692 --> 29:42.253 [SPEAKER_00]: For him, that's what it meant for him to forgive him. 29:42.633 --> 29:44.155 [SPEAKER_00]: Another victim of that. 29:44.395 --> 29:46.316 [SPEAKER_00]: She was like, I'm going to call you by your name. 29:46.376 --> 29:48.978 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going to dehumanize you. 29:49.078 --> 29:51.900 [SPEAKER_00]: Even though you have dehumanized me and in my loved ones. 29:52.460 --> 30:00.052 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to still honor the humanity in you and I think that's some of the things that we need to do is kind of create these forgiveness resolutions if you will. 30:00.412 --> 30:07.123 [SPEAKER_00]: And so there are some stories that are not in the book because what it means for me to forgive them is to not share those stories, but that's right, you know. 30:07.983 --> 30:22.906 [SPEAKER_00]: There are some people in my life that I still have an open door to and so if they initiate I will respond But I am not I'm not going to initiate you know with that So I think we need to sort of like answer the question what does forgiveness mean for us? 30:22.946 --> 30:30.028 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's helpful for our fender as well because you might not have a share definition of what it means to forgive 30:30.528 --> 30:31.009 [SPEAKER_00]: you know. 30:31.089 --> 30:32.049 [SPEAKER_00]: So they've made things. 30:32.450 --> 30:35.513 [SPEAKER_00]: I forgive you means we're going to push the restart button on this thing. 30:35.913 --> 30:40.737 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we're going to go back to Kiki and in high high and it's like, no, I still got to learn how to trust you again. 30:41.158 --> 30:45.682 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think it's really good to communicate to someone who's offended us. 30:45.722 --> 30:50.126 [SPEAKER_00]: If we're going to continue in a relationship with them, what it actually means for us to forgive them as well. 30:50.468 --> 30:51.208 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's powerful. 30:51.528 --> 31:00.112 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, as you were talking, I was thinking about how, you know, you know, the way that we treat other people is a hundred and ten percent reflection of who we are, who we are. 31:00.292 --> 31:01.433 [SPEAKER_01]: That's that's the ownership. 31:01.573 --> 31:05.755 [SPEAKER_01]: The ownership is, you know, because I can control what other people think or do, but, you know, 31:07.395 --> 31:15.502 [SPEAKER_01]: That really is a snapshot of who we actually are friends and folks is how we treat them as shows up. 31:15.602 --> 31:21.948 [SPEAKER_01]: And actually, the wisdom that you just provided about, you know, the fact that, you know, forgiveness is an expression of grace, right? 31:21.988 --> 31:23.869 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not a, it's not something that can be demanded. 31:23.970 --> 31:27.452 [SPEAKER_01]: Christ commands it of us and empowers us to do it so that we can be like him. 31:28.293 --> 31:49.363 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but it really reminds me of trauma work and how when working with perpetrators, how how one of the main things that we communicate is that Whether you think you're a different place or not, you cannot demand the forgiveness to ease your angst, to ease your shame, to ease your sorrow because it is actually good for us to feel sorrow when we treat other people poorly, right? 31:50.003 --> 31:55.605 [SPEAKER_01]: And the, and the healthier we get, the deeper our lament should be about what we once did to someone else, right? 31:55.645 --> 31:59.067 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, but we can demand people relieve that tension for us. 31:59.107 --> 32:02.108 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's just a really, a really powerful reminder. 32:02.128 --> 32:13.392 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I, I think, I wonder, I imagine for the person who's listening right now, they might be wondering, is, is there something that is just downright unforgivable on, unforgivable? 32:14.436 --> 32:41.428 [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I part of this out of race because I can think about, again, working with trauma survivors, you know, folks at all, we have a whole long sheet of things that we need to forget, but my feels snowed by somebody, we might, you know, we might, we should have gotten a promotion or got access to something or we were overlooked or, you know, it's as long as, and then we get other people who have experienced deep, deep physical and sexual assault and abuse and, um, and. 32:42.328 --> 32:54.804 [SPEAKER_01]: But we're all frustrated about what our offenses are and I'm just wondering for the person who's listening they're saying like, you know, you don't know like you don't know like what they did to me. 32:56.876 --> 33:02.640 [SPEAKER_01]: This good God, like this good God wants me to get to a place of forgiveness, this good God does. 33:03.420 --> 33:06.482 [SPEAKER_01]: And if I were to ask him this question, I actually believe the good God's response is yes. 33:06.862 --> 33:08.924 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm not trying to get this issue out. 33:08.984 --> 33:12.426 [SPEAKER_01]: I believe that I actually think we have to figure this out. 33:13.486 --> 33:20.671 [SPEAKER_01]: But what do you say to that beloved sister who's listening in who says like, I've never even said it out loud? 33:21.912 --> 33:23.673 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, oh God, that. 33:25.026 --> 33:32.049 [SPEAKER_00]: I think about this person a lot, you know, there's a section in the book when it hurts so bad. 33:32.069 --> 33:44.495 [SPEAKER_00]: When we talk about abuse and we talk about anger when someone's saying doesn't just hurt your feelings, but it literally changes your life, it changes you on multiple levels and how do we 33:45.096 --> 33:56.398 [SPEAKER_00]: How do we respond to Jesus' command to, to forgive, and the only solace I have is Jesus' or Jesus' words, where He says, Vengeance is mine. 33:57.052 --> 34:06.800 [SPEAKER_00]: like Vengeance is mine and even in Psalm 37 and if you're really wrestling with this, I don't want you to about a book because I wrote it. 34:06.860 --> 34:23.215 [SPEAKER_00]: I want you to just buy and read the chapters on Psalm 37 because I think that they will be really helpful for you, but David is right in which I also think is really interesting, like he is an abuser in the text, but he writes this sort of Psalm of justice that just helps 34:24.015 --> 34:48.332 [SPEAKER_00]: sense to me where he says do not fret over evil doors when they prosper in their way for they are going to Wither like the grass And then later he says that God is going to cause your righteousness and he's gonna cause your justice to shine like the new day sun And I think it's really interesting because the Psalmist could've easily wrote that God's gonna cause his righteousness and he's gonna cause his justice 34:48.772 --> 34:50.213 [SPEAKER_00]: to shine like the new day sun. 34:50.594 --> 34:52.775 [SPEAKER_00]: But he says it's your righteousness. 34:52.855 --> 34:54.397 [SPEAKER_00]: It's your justice. 34:54.777 --> 35:00.781 [SPEAKER_00]: And so he personalizes it to say, no, no, I'm actually interested in the very thing that happened to you. 35:00.982 --> 35:01.802 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes. 35:02.283 --> 35:04.524 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm interested in the very thing that happened to you. 35:04.925 --> 35:06.866 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to cause your righteousness. 35:07.066 --> 35:10.449 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to cause your justice to shine like the new day sun. 35:10.849 --> 35:11.830 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to take care of it. 35:12.390 --> 35:12.671 [SPEAKER_00]: You know. 35:13.251 --> 35:19.292 [SPEAKER_00]: And for me, that just gives me so much hope because it's like, God doesn't need to justice system to execute his justice. 35:19.693 --> 35:22.013 [SPEAKER_00]: He will do it in his own way, in his own time. 35:22.033 --> 35:27.954 [SPEAKER_00]: And so even if you didn't get justice in the ways in which you longed where you can trust that your God will take care of it. 35:27.994 --> 35:30.095 [SPEAKER_00]: Because he said, vinges is mine, set the Lord. 35:30.115 --> 35:32.856 [SPEAKER_00]: And then right in there, he says, so here's what I want you to do. 35:32.896 --> 35:34.856 [SPEAKER_00]: I want you to trust in me and I want you to do good. 35:35.236 --> 35:36.777 [SPEAKER_00]: I want you to commit your ways to me. 35:37.957 --> 35:40.357 [SPEAKER_00]: And then he says, delight yourself in the Lord. 35:40.417 --> 35:42.718 [SPEAKER_00]: And I will give you the desires of your heart. 35:43.098 --> 35:50.742 [SPEAKER_00]: And in that context, I know we got a lot of little rhetoric about what that text means, but the person at David's talking to they long for justice. 35:50.782 --> 35:52.363 [SPEAKER_00]: That is the thing that they want. 35:52.703 --> 35:57.526 [SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, if you will delight yourself and me, I am going to give you the justice that you long for. 35:57.566 --> 36:07.612 [SPEAKER_00]: And so for me, forgiveness has become not just this command to obey, but it's become this very act of faith, very act of trust, in which I am, 36:08.392 --> 36:27.942 [SPEAKER_00]: interesting my case and to the the capable hands of a holy and just in loving and good God and believing that he's going to be true to his word and he's going to execute justice on on my behalf concerning the abuse of concerning the trauma that I have experienced. 36:28.102 --> 36:30.844 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so grateful for your extended treatment on this topic. 36:30.864 --> 36:33.265 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, at two tables book, we touch this a little bit. 36:33.285 --> 36:38.888 [SPEAKER_01]: I wrote a chapter about forgiveness and about what it means to be just a perpetual bill collector. 36:39.882 --> 36:45.207 [SPEAKER_01]: constantly trying to get a debt paid, constantly trying to get a debt paid and not living. 36:45.587 --> 36:54.856 [SPEAKER_01]: Not being able to get up from that phone because you're constantly calling in your mind and in your body and in your relationships and everything else, I gotta get this debt paid. 36:55.616 --> 37:01.462 [SPEAKER_01]: And the work of trying to be a debt collector, just how that's not what we're called to be. 37:01.562 --> 37:02.283 [SPEAKER_01]: The debt is real. 37:03.285 --> 37:03.885 [SPEAKER_01]: and it's due. 37:04.566 --> 37:07.528 [SPEAKER_01]: But we've got other things that we've got to live into. 37:07.988 --> 37:11.811 [SPEAKER_01]: And as you're talking, you know, a community will close us out with some questions. 37:11.851 --> 37:25.500 [SPEAKER_01]: But while you're talking, you're specifically talking to that dear sister, that dear brother, whoever is listening in right now, could you pray for them, especially from the posture of a person that we know God has granted 37:29.082 --> 37:30.665 [SPEAKER_01]: that you describe in this book. 37:30.725 --> 37:34.851 [SPEAKER_01]: Would you, would you lift them up to our Lord that they might receive his grace? 37:36.573 --> 37:45.557 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, man, father, I'm so grateful that your word makes it clear to us that you are near to the broken heart. 37:46.357 --> 37:56.841 [SPEAKER_00]: I think you, that my brother or my sister, or that they are not alone in what they feel or not alone in what they have experienced. 37:56.901 --> 38:02.043 [SPEAKER_00]: You are the God of Hagar, you see their story, you see their turmoil, you see their pain, 38:03.863 --> 38:30.917 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, Father, I pray with that you would give them the grace to allow you to meet them in it, with that they would open up the door and they would say, God, like, come sit with me in this pain and with that they would experience you and true in deep ways what I pray, with that you give them the grace to uncover their wounds, to say the things to you or that they've been fearful to say out loud, the ways in which this abuse, this sin, this trauma 38:33.758 --> 38:48.526 [SPEAKER_00]: They would cast their cares for it, confess their fears, and that they would be met by you, Yahweh, the compassionate and gracious God, the one who is with them in the wilderness, the one who is with them in the valley, in the one who deeply cares, but also the one who heals. 38:49.066 --> 38:59.152 [SPEAKER_00]: And so far, I pray with that you would give them hope, or that you give them hope, Lord, that you will heal them, that you will restore them, or that everything that was lost, so that you would give it back to them ten times, 39:00.132 --> 39:06.736 [SPEAKER_00]: and what I pray with you, you put community around them, what that will help them, that will journey with them in this healing process. 39:07.397 --> 39:13.761 [SPEAKER_00]: And Father, I just pray with you, bring them to a place where they can release their hands off of the offense and trust you with it. 39:14.161 --> 39:19.564 [SPEAKER_00]: Knowing that vengeance is yours, you will repay to anybody who pray. 39:19.845 --> 39:20.145 [SPEAKER_00]: Amen. 39:20.165 --> 39:20.405 [SPEAKER_00]: Amen. 39:22.530 --> 39:22.990 [SPEAKER_02]: Amen. 39:23.130 --> 39:23.571 [SPEAKER_02]: Amen. 39:24.351 --> 39:26.612 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for that beautiful prayer. 39:26.712 --> 39:43.002 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, before, typically a rap here, but I don't, I don't want to, I will be remiss if I didn't ask you about this, you know, you were very vulnerable about your own relationship with your father and how you, you know, on your process of, you know, of a forgiving. 39:44.183 --> 39:55.593 [SPEAKER_02]: you're own father and we know that there's sisters at the table who have similar experiences with a father that's been absent or has felt to keep promises, right? 39:55.693 --> 40:03.401 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's caused a lot of rejection and abandonment wounds and anxious attachment styles and all types that we have 40:08.497 --> 40:19.404 [SPEAKER_02]: you know, a whole checklist, you know, a whole slew, you know, of things for a other of different reasons, you know, can you talk to, can you talk about that process of actually forgiving your father? 40:19.444 --> 40:34.954 [SPEAKER_02]: What that looks like if that's ongoing, you know, currently, and then also how our listeners, you know, can maybe start to take that step, you know, that first step, dip in their toe and the water of even considering, you know, forgiving and 40:36.365 --> 40:41.428 [SPEAKER_02]: parents, or they could be a father, could be a mother, you know, just curious about what you would say to them? 40:42.468 --> 40:57.496 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, um, man, when I came to the Lord, it was very clear to me that I needed to forgive my dad, and, um, I, I just sort of picked up what I thought I was supposed to do. 40:57.576 --> 41:01.578 [SPEAKER_00]: So I was like, okay, I need to send her father's a car, I need to buy him a gift for Father's 41:04.799 --> 41:17.022 [SPEAKER_00]: Make sure I see him when I'm in town and I just picked up all of these behaviors, but I hadn't done like the work internally and then my dad wasn't like responding in the way that I thought he should. 41:17.162 --> 41:25.804 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I exited that process because I was like, you know, I'm maybe I'm trying to to be something that I'm not yet. 41:26.305 --> 41:27.445 [SPEAKER_00]: And I just say that to say 41:27.845 --> 41:42.769 [SPEAKER_00]: like, yes, the command is to forgive, but we cannot rush our way way there, you know, on the one hand, yes, forgiveness is a merciful decision, like it is a decision that we make, but it is also a faithful journey. 41:43.249 --> 41:46.850 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, it takes time to get to a place. 41:48.311 --> 41:50.972 [SPEAKER_01]: Girl, you got to stay still. 41:51.032 --> 41:51.732 [SPEAKER_01]: You got to move. 41:54.817 --> 42:10.533 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a journey and so I love when Paul says in Philippians chapter 3 he was like you can only live up to that which you've obtained and I think sometimes when he comes to For giving this we are trying to live beyond the maturity thing, you know, and it's some things about yourself 42:12.586 --> 42:29.264 [SPEAKER_00]: So I just want to first say like be where you are like just just be where you are and but like just take the steps that you can and so for some people the your first step is you're going to you're going to really need to honestly acknowledge what your parent did or didn't do. 42:29.644 --> 42:45.973 [SPEAKER_00]: You see, you see, honestly, acknowledge that you need to create that, you need to limit that, you need to, you need to deal with, you know, the reality that they've left you with this insecure attachment style that you're going to have to figure out for the real life, like, you're going to have you know, like you work through your anger, all those kinds of things. 42:46.313 --> 42:51.376 [SPEAKER_00]: And then when you find that you're ready to have that conversation with your parent, then have it. 42:51.756 --> 42:56.699 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, your parent might be repentive, they might not be repentive, you know, but you're not forgiving them. 42:56.719 --> 42:57.479 [SPEAKER_00]: I like the 42:58.920 --> 43:03.182 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's like they may not be here to have a man I'll be here. 43:03.622 --> 43:16.687 [SPEAKER_00]: They may not be here to have that conversation and so you're you're you're forgiving them, you know, because that's what Jesus is commanding you to do, but you're not just doing that, like you're doing that with this awareness that God is going to heal you. 43:17.187 --> 43:20.049 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, that he is going to hit, it's going to take time. 43:20.069 --> 43:21.150 [SPEAKER_00]: You, you talked about it. 43:21.170 --> 43:22.131 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a cure attack or stuff. 43:22.431 --> 43:27.495 [SPEAKER_00]: I've got a counseling appointment to date four and we're going to be talking about this insecure attack. 43:27.515 --> 43:32.039 [SPEAKER_00]: It was down and how he's coming up in my life and I asked my counselor, how do you heal from this? 43:32.079 --> 43:37.803 [SPEAKER_00]: Because this is just, you know, this is difficult, but I've experienced a lot of abandonment in my life. 43:37.903 --> 43:44.968 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, a lot of abandonment from adults, from friends, like I've been so like, I have this now and I need to sort of deal with it. 43:45.829 --> 43:47.871 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to encourage people to be patient with themselves. 43:48.551 --> 43:52.635 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying that there's not a sense, you don't need to have a sense of urgency about this. 43:52.855 --> 43:58.540 [SPEAKER_00]: But you're walking through some of the most horrific, hardest things that have ever happened to you. 43:58.940 --> 44:12.411 [SPEAKER_00]: And so like lean into God's sufficient grace for you and allow it to be the journey that it needs to be so that you can actually arrive at a true place of forgiving that person. 44:13.731 --> 44:16.812 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's great. 44:17.553 --> 44:22.614 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so important as you were talking, I mean, it must have been almost 25 years ago. 44:23.294 --> 44:25.175 [SPEAKER_01]: I went to a forgiveness retreat. 44:26.795 --> 44:35.258 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was two days of sitting with people who came in knowing they had to get something off of them or it would kill them. 44:36.699 --> 44:38.361 [SPEAKER_01]: or it would become them. 44:38.521 --> 44:40.903 [SPEAKER_01]: Like the womb would be who all that they are. 44:41.604 --> 44:54.716 [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember sitting in that space and with my own stuff and with other people's stuff and we were led by two people who had had, I've been around lots of really bad stories. 44:54.896 --> 44:58.119 [SPEAKER_01]: There's some of the worst stories of abuse I'd ever heard in my life. 44:59.000 --> 45:00.361 [SPEAKER_01]: And they were our shepherds. 45:01.123 --> 45:01.824 [SPEAKER_01]: in that space. 45:01.864 --> 45:04.887 [SPEAKER_01]: And so when you talk about journey and we're still only life long journey. 45:04.927 --> 45:13.757 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm so grateful, Yana, for reminding people of that, that part of the love that God gives us the love for ourselves in self-deep self-compassion. 45:14.518 --> 45:15.499 [SPEAKER_01]: Let me want to do this. 45:15.519 --> 45:17.281 [SPEAKER_01]: We want to get this mess off of us, we do. 45:18.322 --> 45:35.989 [SPEAKER_01]: But they didn't say journey and we are invited into a journey and it's so in this can be very much a life's work But what a beautiful ministry when we have gone that way that the Lord equips us to walk that way with others and I'm so grateful They got it quick due and to give us this book and to walk this journey with us 45:38.063 --> 45:39.403 [SPEAKER_00]: Then I'm so grateful. 45:39.503 --> 45:40.064 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so grateful. 45:40.084 --> 45:52.847 [SPEAKER_00]: This book has transformed me, you know, and so just because you write a book off forgiveness doesn't mean you're exploiting it doesn't mean somebody ain't going to offend you and you're going to learn how to How to figure it out today, y'all. 45:52.867 --> 45:55.428 [SPEAKER_01]: We, you know, okay, you'll also work with us. 45:56.067 --> 46:00.448 [SPEAKER_00]: The Lord's the work with us is so, man, I'm so grateful to be with you all. 46:00.468 --> 46:02.709 [SPEAKER_00]: This has been such a great conversation. 46:02.729 --> 46:05.250 [SPEAKER_00]: Once again, thank you for the work that I'll do. 46:06.250 --> 46:07.890 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for this work. 46:07.950 --> 46:14.472 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for giving us a companion along our forgiveness journey, right? 46:15.032 --> 46:16.813 [SPEAKER_02]: It ain't the first time, it ain't the last time. 46:19.197 --> 46:26.119 [SPEAKER_02]: figure out is right and we want to go to others who we have forgiven the Holy Spirit, I mean, who we have offended right. 46:26.399 --> 46:27.860 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's what we're going to do, right? 46:27.880 --> 46:31.301 [SPEAKER_02]: This is a this really, it goes, that is the story. 46:31.341 --> 46:37.503 [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, if you imagine all the work that we may be internally doing about forgiving someone else and imagine someone who won't talk about you. 46:38.739 --> 46:44.902 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I imagine someone sitting around thinking like, they cut me, they cut me off, they ignore me. 46:44.982 --> 46:46.603 [SPEAKER_01]: They didn't write, whatever it might be. 46:46.623 --> 46:49.124 [SPEAKER_01]: And you might have a completely different story you're mind about what happened. 46:50.065 --> 46:51.146 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't wait. 46:51.426 --> 46:56.248 [SPEAKER_01]: Oftentimes we have very different stories than you have. 46:56.308 --> 46:57.709 [SPEAKER_01]: That's just, that's powerful. 46:57.729 --> 47:03.272 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that pulls to a place of deep empathy that we're, thank you, men and men of the other list. 47:03.983 --> 47:04.244 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 47:04.504 --> 47:05.645 [SPEAKER_02]: And your melody, Lord. 47:06.086 --> 47:15.878 [SPEAKER_02]: Y'all know before we go, talk to our, our citizens of the table, what is the study section tell of where they can buy your book or follow your work, any projects you got coming on it coming up you. 47:15.898 --> 47:16.038 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 47:16.058 --> 47:17.600 [SPEAKER_02]: This is your time to let them know that. 47:19.082 --> 47:20.283 [SPEAKER_00]: Good time. 47:20.483 --> 47:26.389 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, living beyond offense, doing a hard work, or forgiving this guy's way, it's, you can find it wherever books are sold. 47:26.429 --> 47:28.991 [SPEAKER_00]: You might be able to go to your local bar as a noble. 47:30.533 --> 47:32.054 [SPEAKER_00]: And find it there. 47:32.915 --> 47:36.138 [SPEAKER_00]: You can find me on at Yana Jene, that's why it's in a J.E. 47:36.178 --> 47:39.481 [SPEAKER_00]: and A Y on threads, on Instagram. 47:39.981 --> 47:40.782 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll be honest with you. 47:40.822 --> 47:42.964 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not really a social media girlie. 47:43.004 --> 47:44.546 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying, but it's pretty cute. 47:45.226 --> 47:46.928 [SPEAKER_02]: That's also how you live beyond the fence. 47:46.948 --> 47:47.368 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. 47:47.388 --> 47:48.409 [SPEAKER_02]: Because there's an end. 47:48.449 --> 47:49.630 [SPEAKER_02]: That'll charge you up every day. 47:50.750 --> 47:53.692 [SPEAKER_00]: And then, yeah. 47:54.053 --> 47:56.735 [SPEAKER_00]: And then, my website is yanajene.com. 47:57.595 --> 47:58.276 [SPEAKER_02]: Wonderful. 47:58.356 --> 47:58.856 [SPEAKER_02]: Wonderful. 47:58.876 --> 48:02.099 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, thank you so much, Yana, for taking a seat at the table with us. 48:02.139 --> 48:07.503 [SPEAKER_02]: We are so grateful for your work, for your ministry, for your presence, your wisdom. 48:08.343 --> 48:08.744 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. 48:08.824 --> 48:10.265 [SPEAKER_02]: This has been such a blessing. 48:11.105 --> 48:15.927 [SPEAKER_02]: and to our sisters at the table we want to thank y'all for taking a seat at the table what does this week. 48:15.967 --> 48:17.547 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's keep the conversation going. 48:17.607 --> 48:23.749 [SPEAKER_02]: Share your thoughts about this episode behind the book, Living Beyond Offense by Yana Connor. 48:23.769 --> 48:24.549 [SPEAKER_02]: Let us know your thoughts. 48:24.849 --> 48:30.991 [SPEAKER_02]: You can share your thoughts on Instagram threads or Facebook at our handle, truth's table. 48:31.351 --> 48:34.812 [SPEAKER_02]: or email us your thoughts at asktrusetableadgmail.com. 48:35.352 --> 48:39.694 [SPEAKER_02]: Black women, do you know that Trusetable has a black woman's Facebook discipleship group? 48:39.834 --> 48:41.014 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we do. 48:41.414 --> 48:45.475 [SPEAKER_02]: Make sure to follow Trusetable on Facebook and join our Facebook group today. 48:45.535 --> 48:50.477 [SPEAKER_02]: Make sure you answer all the entry questions that you can be admitted into the group and invite your homegirls to. 48:50.897 --> 48:54.860 [SPEAKER_02]: Don't forget to rate and read the show on iTunes and subscribe on your favorite podcast player. 48:55.300 --> 49:04.467 [SPEAKER_02]: Choose Table also has a Patreon account so you can send your love offerings to patreon.com slash choose table or you can bless us at our PayPal which is paypal.me slash choose table. 49:04.888 --> 49:18.238 [SPEAKER_02]: Choose table is audio producer is Joshua Heath our video producer is Darab Bradford and choose tables is equity producers and hosts are myself a community who and and Christina Edmondson will see you soon on the next choose table by y'all.