[SPEAKER_00]: This episode of True's Table is brought to you by our NAACP Image Award-nominated book, True's Table, Black Women's Musings on Life, Love, and Liberation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Get it where all books are sold.
[SPEAKER_02]: Brothers, y'all all right.
[SPEAKER_02]: If this is your first time at Truth's Table, welcome to the table.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you've been sitting at the table with us all these years.
[SPEAKER_02]: We are so grateful that you have been listening to us through these years.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we are inviting you to partner with us and support our work at patreon.com slash Truth's Table.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now pull up a chair and have a seat at the table with us.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hey y'all, I'm gonna come to Truth's Table.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe I said culture for grace and truth, I'm a family.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm Christina.
[SPEAKER_02]: This table is filled.
[SPEAKER_02]: Five black women in four black women.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm doing well today.
[SPEAKER_02]: Awesome.
[SPEAKER_02]: How are you today?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Excellent.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we're gonna record an episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's go episode about What about me with things?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah
[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, we're churchy.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are churchy people, you know, it's not a game.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're definitely churchy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so sermons are the people, the construction of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a good, you know, sermon, at least for us and our estimation.
[SPEAKER_01]: And our estimation, our own opinion, my God, let's be as preaching someone.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is a thing, you feel this.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a whole field of field of field.
[SPEAKER_02]: Homiletics, we're not homo, like professors.
[SPEAKER_02]: Humble attrition, just have listened to a lot of sounds to a lot, and people who and folks who and me Construct, so I'm here to encourage them From time to time, you more regularly.
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there are levels in terms of, like, you know, sermon writing and, well, there are, I mean, I'm a governing elder.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but I'm on a lot of, yeah, but before that, I mean, I would preach a conference or speak, it's preach or testify.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but I think, I think in the grand scale, because I know there are people who put out sermons, multiple sermons a Sunday, I just, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, God bless them.
[SPEAKER_02]: Barely levels.
[SPEAKER_01]: Their levels too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sermon content.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we could under, don't fully appreciate how much one goes into a, uh, a powerful sermon, a sound sermon, uh, one that is bathed for, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just think that people can underestimate.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Get out of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it shows up in the pulpit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes when the time was not taken.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and when it was throwing together.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I think that you can tell you know sometimes sometimes sometimes not sometimes a Lord just gives the oil Yeah, it works it out for the you know it's grace for the shore Sure, yeah, so live a little talk about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, okay, so now you said you're a governor and older what is that me for folks?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I mean well, I mean teaching elders They they're Predominally teaching and so I mean I do teach but I but I largely
[SPEAKER_01]: lead shepherd through governance of the life of the local church, but I do but but even before I I served in church in that capacity, I have served in churches as a teacher and has preached and shared in all kinds of places.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, yes, yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: But those who want to know, there you go.
[SPEAKER_01]: But those who are congregational led, not team led in their ministry or into, you know, they're different church.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a home to the episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is a structure.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's my other topic is actually a lot about church structure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's what there's a whole lot about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad I got it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then again, this is getting to the other moms, why do you like, you know, it's not uncommon for you for me to chat with you and you're like, I'm going to text you discernment or we, we text each other, music too in other things, right, updates and you know, and funny things on Instagram and whatnot, but we actually do, we have friends who are like, check out this sermon, check out this, you know, and so we kind of like share messages.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I'm so sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I mean, something like why is that why are why are sermons so important to you?
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not talking about just Sunday morning sermons.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not like this is the course of the week.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think as I don't know, it's it for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really helpful for me to be grounded in the world.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, yes, in my own study, yes, to a prayer.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, through my own spiritual disciplines, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: But hearing the preach word, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: You got to hear the gospel.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, preach proclaim to you Sunday to Sunday.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's really important for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think, depending on if I've served that Sunday, maybe I missed the sermon.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to go back and listen to it, you know, or if I happen to be a town, I don't know, all types of things I just happen to happen, you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I do, I'm grateful for technology because you can run it back, but in other words, you know, such it there was a time when you had to buy the CD of the sermon.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how long you were given a scene of fun visiting the ministry or the tape Okay, so that's how it was see these in my day.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but I would imagine it was cassettes generation before I mean, I wasn't even a full generation.
[SPEAKER_02]: Not even a full, but yeah now with YouTube links
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, you know, wow.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just appreciate.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, you're in search of and folks are asking, oh, where's the link?
[SPEAKER_02]: So for me, it helps to to ground me, it helps me to continue to think about the Lord my own
[SPEAKER_02]: had a vacation.
[SPEAKER_02]: My own correction, you know, and just growing up, you know, in the world.
[SPEAKER_02]: So for me, I do listen as a pretty regular practice.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll listen to a sermon while I'm working out.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll listen to a sermon while I'm playing in.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll listen to, especially if I'm about to preach.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm only going to listen a sermon that week.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's part of my preparation.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just want to hear like okay, I want to hear the preacher I want to see from my favorite preachers.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, I love the way that's constructed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, oh, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I thought about okay, that's the way to introduce the you know the sermon topic or I'm sorry the text.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry the text.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, tag the text.
[SPEAKER_02]: However, you know, so for me, I try to learn or catch
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's the best job in Kali and what's pre-chocational.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think Sarmonic skill is, I mean, certainly there is a design.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's methodology about communication and all that kind of stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: But there is so much that it's definitely caught not taught.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you have to be submissive and mercenessive and mercenessive.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so you gotta be immersed in it, so that to me, I think is really important.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just think things are okay on in our world, it's just like, I'm like, I need a touch.
[SPEAKER_02]: I need a work that's different from long high and I, you know, and the Lord has blessed me through the ministry of so many different preachers down through the years, and I was a primarily since COVID.
[SPEAKER_01]: True for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: When we all had to go online, sure, that was really actually when it opened up for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, being able to kind of, you know, hear from other voices, you know, to be able to, to continue to get that weekly, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that, that to me is, I really value sermons and, and what, it just helps me in my sanctification.
[SPEAKER_01]: How are you, but why, why sermons, why is that?
[SPEAKER_01]: very important.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, I, is there a rhythm of routine, you know, like, okay, today's Monday, I've got to listen to something.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't think I consciously think about it quite a while.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I do listen to something pretty, I mean, like I, I listen to sermons while I'm getting ready in the morning, and I listen to sermons Sunday morning before I go to church.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, me too.
[SPEAKER_01]: I usually listen to a worship service as I'm getting ready to go to a worship service.
[SPEAKER_02]: Preparing your heart, man.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I just, you know, and one of the things I love is, uh, nice about sermons, but I love to see the way the spirit is at work.
[SPEAKER_01]: in multiple ministries.
[SPEAKER_01]: So because I, yes, because I will listen to different services before I go to an actual service in person, it was, it's amazing when there is like consistency across the themes, like what people are praying about, a text that might come up, a theme that might come up.
[SPEAKER_01]: And these are, these are places that are, typically if I'm looking at just in the US,
[SPEAKER_01]: there, you know, completely different states.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe even different theological traditions in the combination.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but there may be a thread.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I tend to be attentive to like the thread as a spirit of speaking through these preaching service, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And that says out to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: But also, I just, I mean, I think I'm an auditory learner.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I actually, there's an element in which preaching is aligned with my learning style.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's some folks who really are.
[SPEAKER_01]: irritated, frustrated, have a low tolerance for sermons, you know, I've discovered this through the years, like, you know, in the sense of, like, it's very much like they, they just have a very low tolerance to listening to sermons.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I've, I've stumbled across so many Facebook discussions about what needs to change about church, and to hear people say, like, immediately like, we'd cut these sermons.
[SPEAKER_01]: or sometimes they don't have the or they need to be like nine minutes or they need to like what's wrong and I'm like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's fascinating.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like a homily or yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm happy to have chapels that literally you had like 12 minutes like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think it's not even so much about the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think it's a reflection of the heart posture.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like hurry up, hurry up with that, hurry up with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hurry up with that, hurry up with you talking to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hurry up.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's something off with the heart posture on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know, part of me is disciplining myself to be able to hear from someone who's opened up God's word.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like there's a, I think you have to grow in a tolerance.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like if you're working out, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: When you start off running, you know, you don't,
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, you don't start off running a marathon, you train.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think likewise, you have to train yourself to sit under teaching, to be able to receive it, to discern it, to be curious about it, to see God at work and to worship through it as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I've always, I mean, I haven't, I'm saying always enjoyed it, but I came from a tradition where, you know, we had strong preachers,
[SPEAKER_01]: At the time, I didn't realize that I grew up with a strong preacher.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just saw it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I did.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did my childhood preacher, Harold Carter, senior, and you shallow Baptist church was a national, yeah, was a national, was a national, got rest of so, a nationally-known preacher.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as a kid, I mean, I didn't know that was the thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, now it was much more popular, and we can talk, we can get into the later, about kind of the consequences of preaching popular, like what the consequences of that that creates for the local
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because people compare the local pastor to the nationally internationally known preacher of all preachers I'm almost saying it's you know, but but I happen to be raising a church where that was the case Yeah, and so I think I had an expectation that sermons were all as a kid all the sermons were
[SPEAKER_01]: a scholarly, I guess I wouldn't have called them scholarly, but in retrospect, you know, our pastor had had two doctorate degrees.
[SPEAKER_01]: But they were also very culturally contextualized, like he knew his audience he was talking to.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they were also dynamic, like, you know, this a church tradition where preachers like, like they sweat, like they've done work by the time they have,
[SPEAKER_01]: articulated and conveyed the sarmage, they have emoted, they've emoted it because they're doing like holy work, like they think it's like soul surgery, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So, exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's what I grew up, I grew up and then as I just got older, I was around different types of traditions and different types of preachers, so to be able to like contrast and compare, but I'm grateful for like that, that
[SPEAKER_01]: So preaching is something that is very much a part of our world as Christians that were a part of, we at times preach a sermon, he and they are trying to preach with our lives as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: But as you think about your life, how do you think is happening when preaching is taking place?
[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm, yeah, that's good preaching.
[SPEAKER_01]: God's will saturate it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, when good preaching has taken place, I believe the Holy Ghost is on the move.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think setting cap is free.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think, changing stoning hearts into hearts, a flesh that beat after the things are God.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think Goldis Spirit is moving scales from the eyes of those who are listening on stopping unclogging ears.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, that could not hear, but now can hear fixing the vision, giving them 2020 vision in the spirit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Touching again.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think healing is happening.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think there's a supernatural work, a good preaching.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: What do I mean by good, good preachy?
[SPEAKER_02]: No, because sometimes we can get caught up in the theatrics of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_02]: If that, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's the tradition, if that's
[SPEAKER_01]: If that was one, I would get on your own.
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: The Lord has lived in my talent pool.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's helpful.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is all you can do.
[SPEAKER_02]: I might test it out once.
[SPEAKER_02]: So my test it out once.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have to be a great singer.
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't.
[SPEAKER_02]: You've got to be free.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: So be honest.
[SPEAKER_02]: Some of them.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: elements of it, which I think are valid and important, you know, but I don't I think sometimes we can do that and think because somebody Doesn't do those things.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it wasn't oily.
[SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't a good song, man.
[SPEAKER_02]: I cuz I didn't shout.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know, I mean, so I don't think that's a
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't think that's a good barometer.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, preaching.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, did the pastor, you know, walk you through that from me.
[SPEAKER_02]: This isn't my argument.
[SPEAKER_02]: Did that pastor walk you through the text?
[SPEAKER_01]: Make the text of the Bible.
[SPEAKER_02]: The text of the Bible.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, not their text.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because at this point, I'm just, I know you guys make everything clear.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but today walking through the text of the, of the Bible, they be able to make connections.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, I think relevant connections to your world and to what's happening to the world.
[SPEAKER_02]: I got to me is, that's a non-negotiable, until in 26.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's been a non-negotiable, but it's really non-negotiable now where people are living.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, did they?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they need hope for today.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you need hope for today.
[SPEAKER_02]: Did they give you good background on what's happening in the contest?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's happening in the text.
[SPEAKER_02]: We are so far removed from the Biblical.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god.
[SPEAKER_02]: We need that actually.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, so we're going to miss the whole point of a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, another time period.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a different time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Different world.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a different language.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, everything.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, we need that.
[SPEAKER_02]: because our world is so different.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me see, I'm trying to think, did the pastor preach the preacher?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because it doesn't not always say.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the pastor preacher.
[SPEAKER_02]: Did they preach the gospel?
[SPEAKER_02]: Did they tell you, did they proclaim to you that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life, the only way, the truth, and the life, you know, and extend that invitation to you, whether that's whether and now some some traditions do all to cause some don't, you know, but what's that in the starving?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like you know, did they proclaim, you know, homages, that to me, that's very important.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, what else, if you couldn't, I'm not a huge illustration person, like for me, in my own preaching that, I think that's a place where I can grow.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, uh in illustrations.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm more like the Jesus saying like your name neighbor you should love and God is love.
[SPEAKER_02]: Stop.
[SPEAKER_02]: Good day.
[SPEAKER_02]: You need that, let me, okay, let me say the heat.
[SPEAKER_01]: God's here, hey, hey, you okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Need to, let's say three chords are walking up to three.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's it, that was it, that's the third one.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, but I'm saying is, that is an area I would like to, to, yeah, I don't think I'm, I'm so terrible at it, but it's just like, I don't naturally, I don't think of a story.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because illustrations in, in a story, I'm like, I'm in.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had some in my previous in my last sermon.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had some examples and I think I had some some pretty decent real world connections But yeah, I think if I'm I'm gonna do a self-assessment.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's yeah, to me illustrations is always been a bit of the bad advice
[SPEAKER_01]: Since when it comes to journalism, it's like, oh, I love it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, how am I going to connect with some artists?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, make this stick for people.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I do think that sometimes on a weakness that can come up is that or a snare.
[SPEAKER_02]: Some people can preach to illustration over preaching the text.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I have seen that and you leave with the story and not the story of the scripture.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that can be a snare.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have seen that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But anyway, but to me, the good, good preaching is the Holy Spirit movie.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that doesn't mean something, because sometimes when people were like, well, nobody came down the aisle, nobody came down the aisle.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't, that to me is not a measure.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not the indication.
[SPEAKER_02]: That the spirit was at work.
[SPEAKER_02]: How about for you?
[SPEAKER_02]: What are some of the marks for you?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like a good, you know, good sermon.
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you think is happening during good preaching?
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, so good preaching to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: It allus is a draws for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, worship.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I get a sigh and reminded again of what the truth is that God is glorious, God is holy, God is God is kind and God is near.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it is through
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it is absolutely amazing that God uses communication to draw a near to us.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a very unique thing that God does when the very beginning of creation.
[SPEAKER_01]: God speaks and it is so, but God also speaks to us like we commune with God.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, preaching the form of communication that brings God into the room close to us.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we got it on is omnipresent, but in the room like in the room so that we notice God.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, I think a sermon that does not
[SPEAKER_01]: does not lead with us having noticed God.
[SPEAKER_01]: We got a problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've noticed the preacher and I've not noticed God.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've got a problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've noticed the worship team and you know it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got, I've got to leave having noticed God, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's Christian, Christian preaching, believe I believe points to you to Jesus Christ.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I've heard people critique like, you know, the
[SPEAKER_01]: kind of old school blactor tradition of taking people to the cross at the end of the sermon.
[SPEAKER_01]: They feel like it's kind of a no clunky puzzle piece that gets added on to the end.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would say that if you can do that, if you see the gospel and the redemptive narrative connections as you are preaching, that's wonderful and you can lift them up throughout your points or however you construct your sermon.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I am not offended.
[SPEAKER_01]: by the by adding that piece to not ashamed because I just need to make sure that that happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: I need to make what are we doing?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's what you thought it had.
[SPEAKER_01]: He might not feel like that smooth the slick, but I I need you to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I need to need to know that we were talking about Jesus and that we're calling all of us a new or for the first time to entrust ourselves to the love of Jesus.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean,
[SPEAKER_01]: who we were preaching we may have been preaching but who were you preaching yeah so we preach Christ and so that's an important part of the sermon I would also say because I'm you know a bit of a nerd I really want to learn something yeah and the sermon yeah that does not mean that as someone is preaching something that we would look at it's like a 101 basic doctrinal concept that I would feel like oh that's just too basic but I do like to get something from the sermon
[SPEAKER_02]: the text.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, and I'm very eager to do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think some people who have taught it seminaries or have seminary backgrounds or whatever can be a really hard audience.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, official.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fairness, I think you're just thinking about a tough crowd, like, okay, what are you doing with that?
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm actually like for the preacher.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, let's say, well, this is black church stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm for the solo with take your time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Take your time, take your time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Even if they struck them, I'd be like, okay, I'm for you because the better you do, the better this is for me as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm like for the preacher, I'm actively for their good, their flourishing, their understanding because I know that the net actually is like, let's see what it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, scripture names that directly, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, to me, that is what.
[SPEAKER_01]: So learning something, seeing the glory of God, being reminded of the power of the gospel in the years we've got comfort, correction, and then I think the last thing is it has to be true.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's gotta be accurate.
[SPEAKER_01]: And even if it's a hard teaching, even if it's a hard teaching,
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm looking for you to tell the truth.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not looking for you not to God or God's word, because you know, I'm like, oh no, no, no, no, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like God doesn't need to be cleaned up.
[SPEAKER_01]: We get cleaned up from the inside out.
[SPEAKER_01]: But God doesn't get cleaned up.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there is a way I think to proclaim every passage, even the ones that are like, oh my gosh, what is happening here?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's still point to the glory and the grace of God.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and we need God's grace.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, and I think that's a good point because I saw a couple of things.
[SPEAKER_02]: First of all, I am seminary training, so it is, I think we are harder, harder audience to preach you, but I am actually for the preacher because I think there's a element of responsibility on the delay members.
[SPEAKER_02]: to come ready to hear the word, to prepare your hearts and minds.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why thanks for me when I'm getting ready for church.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm listening to gospel music, I, you know, which, you know, as I've, I've never walked with a long time, long time, so I'm...
[SPEAKER_02]: mostly listening to that for the most these days.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's more so what my music ended up typically listening to.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, preparing our hearts and our minds, you're listening, you're watching our worship service.
[SPEAKER_02]: I am actually two as I'm preparing for such terms, too.
[SPEAKER_02]: But we have to come in with a spirit of expectation.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, so I think what else was happening in the sermon and good sermon is that sometimes you're getting confirmation Oh God, it's spoken to you during the week.
[SPEAKER_01]: My goodness.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've got to be showing you in your own study or in your own prayer to Yeah, in your own.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is all the power of the God at work the sermon.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is not even about the preacher's prepper Understand that's the spirit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, the Holy Spirit meeting you and showing up like you see you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I got you like you know
[SPEAKER_02]: You're like, did you know my life?
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you feel like they're preaching your life.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're like, oh my goodness.
[SPEAKER_02]: Never told the past about this.
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't tell the story.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think so that's awesome when that happens.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love when that happens.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, that doesn't happen every week, but you know, yeah, such a, such a blessing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think it's a nice from God when it happens.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think there's an illness there on our part as lay members to come in ready to receive.
[SPEAKER_02]: So then I also think about, um, the point about being a seminary train to listen, yes, because you know how to, to at least take the text.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, exactly, in theory or you should.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you have a sense of like, even if the book you're not so familiar, you know, like, okay, I haven't spent all my time in hosting a bird.
[SPEAKER_02]: I haven't sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can have a story.
[SPEAKER_01]: You've got some animals.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you should, it should be executed probably in this direction.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have a sense of the guard real or does that make sense?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Even the approach.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I do more so probably than just, then a lay member.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me say that one.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, um, but I am like, I am still for the preacher because I'm like, I'm, I'm ready to hear it work.
[SPEAKER_02]: Through God's business.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's, that's different than classroom study, just as study.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm something that where there has been study, but certainly there's been prayer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And surrender and an offering is being made.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when the preacher preaches, they are making an offering.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and I think, um, but yeah, I'm with you on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I, I, I definitely,
[SPEAKER_02]: How I wanted to go, and I'm ready, I'm ready to go.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's where we're building up to where that moment is here, which is also a form of worship.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're still in worship when the proclamation of the gospel is going for it.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's worship, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think, I don't know, I think that's important to be able to name as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: There was, I mean, there's so many other elements.
[SPEAKER_02]: to it.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I think about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think about also what it means to like construct a sermon.
[SPEAKER_02]: So where you can get the right conclusion, but wrong text.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was like, oh, you have to have some self-control.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you have to have some.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because people always have something to say, but it doesn't mean that you get to say it through that text.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like even when I was constructing this, this last sermon, I just now was like, I had to change
[SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't like a, it's like, yeah, I mean, that's, yeah, that's valid.
[SPEAKER_02]: There was one point that I wanted to connect to, you know, to another biblical, you know, point that would have still been valid probably.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I was like, that's not actually what the text is saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so the temptation is true.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's still true.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's what you communicated here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you have to be faithful to the text.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you have to be yielded to the spirit.
[SPEAKER_02]: To hear the spirit say,
[SPEAKER_02]: this direction dot like you don't hear this is the mark not that all good yeah but this is actually the point of text and so you got to be yielded to the spirit you know to do that to make that change because sometimes people don't understand how how laborious it is to construct a certain
[SPEAKER_02]: But you have to go back, you have to do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: No matter what it takes, however long it takes, how much after re-work it, do more background.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have to do it, you have to get it right because you have to, you are, it's not a performance.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's step one way.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not a performance.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is a proclamation, and that is not the same thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you know, and so, and your preachy before it audience, a one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ultimately, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is God.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the people, but you know, that, you know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I get caught up.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have some thoughts about why performance is attractive to people.
[SPEAKER_01]: But we're going to press pause here.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, listen to some of these little advertisements and we'll be right back.
[SPEAKER_00]: Our NAAACP Image Award-nominated book, Truth Table.
[SPEAKER_00]: Black women's musings on life, love, and liberation is making waves and shifting culture.
[SPEAKER_00]: I closed this book feeling like I had just partaken in a multi-course meal, filled with grace and the courage to carry on.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I believe you'll finish this book feeling the same way, Morgan Harper Nichols artists in poet.
[SPEAKER_00]: By Truth's Table, Black women's musings on life, love, and liberation, at our website, or wherever books are sold.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we are back and we are having this conversation about sermons and preaching and what makes us sermons and what is even happening, you know, and our thoughts and feelings about, you know, one of the things that you said before we went to break was, you know, this is not a performance.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not from this, it's not from information, but I often think that there's something about performance that's particularly tempting and attractive not only for the person performing, but the person receiving it because I think there's when you're not performing you're showing up as yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like your performance is a bit of a character.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the person you play.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's the person you play who does this sermon.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there are significant consequences with that, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the person that you kind of put on to go up and to do something, but when you're proclaiming as a real person changed by the gospel with a real life, real struggles, real repentance that's needed.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a that's a different person that's walking up there.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are some schools of thought in terms of preaching and teaching that work hard to get people to not be themselves when they go up there, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So there is a way in which we can offer people a performance identity to say this is what a good preacher looks like and sounds like.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's more personality.
[SPEAKER_01]: and costume that it is, God wants to work with who you are.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like your story, through you, through you, through you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, through you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everything that makes you, you.
[SPEAKER_01]: As a proclaimer and not as a performer.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that requires a certain level of vulnerability for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Who you actually are to walk up and speak.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, not the person you put on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: but who you actually are in the day.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, it's true.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why I was like, um, when I was preparing, you know, to preach this week, I had to preach in a long time, actually since February of last year, um, and I told Christina, um, and Mike of it, I hadn't put together a sermon.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mmm, it's wild, but over in over six years, why brand new?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you don't mean that, you know, if you have you preach from the time and time, you have yours, you just don't listen.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, you kind of, you know, you could break out, you know, for different, you know, depending, you know, that work sometimes is like, okay, I have to, I need to do a new one, I don't want in so many years, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And so yeah, I've been preparing all week, doing all the things that that that entails, you know, like, I was like, I'm not going to watch the show.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going really just try to.
[SPEAKER_02]: We talk about it, do you ever love like, you know, and I remember one day, one of these days this morning, I don't know, I might have it in the Friday, I don't know, one of these days, I just heard the Holy Spirit say, you know, this is not a performance, it's a proclamation, like you just have, like, like, really just trust, you know, trust me really, you know, to be in and through you, like, you know, and and I even think the temptation these days is to preach beyond the local church.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my gosh, it is to preach too social media to the camera instead and preaching beyond them.
[SPEAKER_02]: And clearly bypassing the needs of the people.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god, has put for you to preach too.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: In the local church, whether you're ordained to be there or whether you're visiting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you always have to think about and pray for.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: The congregation pray for their needs, pray that the Holy Spirit would surface those needs to you in prayer or through the sermon, just do the writing of the sermon.
[SPEAKER_02]: You could also ask the pastors, I don't you typically judge pray.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but I suppose that's about practice to be like what are some of the things that are kind of coming up in your community.
[SPEAKER_02]: That could help in form prayer.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've never done that, but there might be a good idea.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you know, but really that there is a that that's real.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a real temptation and I see that quite a bit Yeah, online where I see people it seems like it's like I You're really preaching to your people all you're preaching to your timeline
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's a real temptation these days that that wasn't a thing, I don't necessarily in the same way in the 90s.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe in the conference circuit.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what we did.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we didn't have social media in that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that wasn't there for that, you know, a thing then.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you spot on with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that that is,
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a picture like a, you know, a preacher and a pastor preacher.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you know, you and there and I think there's their moments and like don't get me wrong there.
[SPEAKER_01]: A whole lot of things.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just like that was out of pocket.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was a problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: That shouldn't happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: But there are some things where I haven't been in the life of the church for so long.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just like.
[SPEAKER_01]: Some content really is meant for the people that are in the room.
[SPEAKER_01]: They understand the context.
[SPEAKER_01]: They understand the fact that they know the language that they speak in.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so there are moments when there are things that happen in a congregation of people who know each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we take that moment and we put it out on the internet.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, well,
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously someone says something that's abusive or just an actor about who got it is like that's a problem for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: But just sometimes I'm just like well this is this isn't our house pastures no exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah it's like it's like walking by looking at someone's window and you know you see something kind of dimly but you don't get the whole context of what's happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so there I think there's a degree of being just a bit more charitable.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you are receiving a message
[SPEAKER_01]: And I also think that preachers now have to compete against the local church pastor preacher competes against people's favorites and, you know, and getting people's attention.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do have favors.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do have favors.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think that for someone to be a nationally known favorite, they're probably preaching at a capacity or a skill level that is beyond the average
[SPEAKER_01]: that actually can cause all kinds of problems for the life of the local church.
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and you have to train your ear to listen to your pastor.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, when I was in court, we were under, uh, you know, under COVID.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I should call this.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: We were under COVID.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you're listening to, you know, because you're, and at that point, I was looking for a church home outside of this because, you know, because I had just moved.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, um, and so after a while, and I was like, okay, father, when I did find my church in, um, got my amazing pleasure.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I had just like, okay, I might stop listening to my, my faves.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I could train my ear.
[SPEAKER_02]: to hear my past hair, receive my pastor, learn my pastor's way of preaching, you know, and adapt, you know, to that, you know, so there was a long season where I stopped listening to my face, just because I was like, I got a shift, you know, and really be able to be immersed in my own local now now I know how to, I can, I can hold both now, like I can, but initially, I think for me, that was really,
[SPEAKER_02]: Really important, you know, I'll never forget and I think I'm safe to say I don't want to listen my face just because I don't know people's less I Don't I know about fat people for real and Christina like a one of them I don't listen I'm here is boring as we say I don't play I don't really I'm like I don't really vouch for fat people
[SPEAKER_01]: Listen.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm not listening to my face, you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_02]: But, like, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what I mean.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the moment we list it is like, I know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Basta soon.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, oh no!
[SPEAKER_01]: And people have a really hard time sorting that out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a really stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's one of the conversations.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we do have an episode chrono maybe coming out about that in a couple of weeks.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think I'm on good ground to share this.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if I'm not, I'm gonna pull it up.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I remember we were at E.K.
[SPEAKER_02]: Bailey a couple years ago in our sister, Dr. Daniel, Reverend Dr. Daniel Brown.
[SPEAKER_02]: Preached, she's been on the show for her.
[SPEAKER_02]: Preached a phenomenal, not as a prison preacher.
[SPEAKER_02]: She preached a phenomenal word about what Tamar?
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, oh my goodness, powerful sermon and we talked to her afterwards and just were, you know, just encourage her to just talk about how powerful it was.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember her saying, I can't remember how it came up, but she was just talking about.
[SPEAKER_02]: Knowing your audience, really, she's among a whole bunch of preachers and skulls and seminarians.
[SPEAKER_02]: So she could preach as powerfully, as detailed as scholarly as she did in that context because she's amongst peers.
[SPEAKER_01]: But she's amongst peers.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's also a majority male audience.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, she's among peers in that space.
[SPEAKER_02]: But she was like, I know that that's not a
[SPEAKER_02]: because of, you know, because of where they are, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: And I like, I love the way I lift that up, just to say, no, the important of knowing your audience that wisdom, they care of a shepherd, you know, for the sheep, you know, and knowing where they are and developmentally, where they are spiritually, what they can handle, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: I just thought that was really, yeah, awesome.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I thought it was a good example of just a pasture of knowing their audience, and a preacher.
[SPEAKER_01]: knowing their hands too, you know, and it made it to me about what the people can handle per se.
[SPEAKER_01]: It could just be that there's a who you are happening to preaching to as someone like a E.K.
[SPEAKER_01]: Valior, what if it's a preaching conference?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are people who you know kind of what resonates deeply with them?
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're harmoneticians, you know, so, I mean, this is what they did.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know what they're looking for.
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know what they're looking for.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I thought that was really cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now one thing that has come up, you wouldn't want to put me on this.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'd be exchanging certain things.
[SPEAKER_02]: She was like, oh, yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll just listen to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think our title's Evangelist now.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, Kiki, Kira, she was in their tradition, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Kelly, I think her last name, Kelly, yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think she's in their tradition.
[SPEAKER_02]: They just had their conference just I believe at the time of this recording last week.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so this was, I would say her debut star.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, I don't think she preaches a ton.
[SPEAKER_01]: She seemed to be pretty pretty.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was like,
[SPEAKER_01]: First, you know, she named the anxiety that she felt.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes, there's no being nervous about doing that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, the sermit title was, um, I got bigger.
[SPEAKER_02]: I got bigger fish to fry.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mama, mama.
[SPEAKER_02]: I appreciated the sermon.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought it was good.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's speaking about being a seminary who's listening is for the preacher I really have for the preacher.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to hear somebody I can always get something.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know from something even if the sermon ain't good Yeah, you can Something you can honor something in sometimes you just like just read description and I'll say no
[SPEAKER_02]: I know it's not like it's been good we could also talk about what makes a bad term you know um but anyway I appreciated her sermon I thought that um I thought it was powerful uh it's like still for me I go in
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a conference like, you know, depending on what kind of conference it is.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have a different frame for what I might love.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not, it's not even a conference that I would.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's not even my tradition.
[SPEAKER_01]: I saw my dreams of gracious that I get to receive.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm also, I'm also, I'm also a tradition.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know that this is her first or one of her, you know, earlier.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, sorry.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I go, okay, you know, I'm taking that, you know, this is not like a, I had preach up million times a year, you know, there's a difference.
[SPEAKER_02]: What's this, this is what I do.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't wish you seminary trained, you know, so I'm coming in with.
[SPEAKER_02]: this lens.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I'm expecting just a good.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, she might be, but I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't just, yeah, maybe she is.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, so I'm coming in with those friends, like, okay, let me, let me hear.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know that she's an amazing minister.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love her music.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love her ministry throughout the years.
[SPEAKER_02]: It I was really blessed, you know, by the sermon.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought it was good.
[SPEAKER_02]: Gospel sermon did she go into the Greek and into the Hebrew and bring all it no, you don't need that for, I don't even, I don't do that for every sermon.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think you have to have a reason to do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's beyond just letting me show you what I can do Yeah, that has to be for the benefit of the people to do that and you should do that because you don't understand what you're doing But yeah, exactly, but I don't like to pull that in there just to pull it in and I'm trying to illuminate something or try to give you a little bit more And oh my goodness is more emphasis like oh
[SPEAKER_02]: If you read it this way, you'll be able to, you know, it helps to further concretize the point that you're trying to make.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: If it helps to advance it, then I put it in.
[SPEAKER_02]: If it doesn't, then I keep it out.
[SPEAKER_02]: Personally, that's kind of my rule of thumb.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you know, I saw people critiquing, you know, her statement are just like, like, saying, it wasn't good.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't, I do not, I vehemently disagree.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought it was, I thought it was powerful.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought that, you know, she was whooping, doing all of those.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the tradition, that's the celebratory tradition.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's the tradition she's in, like you know, but I thought it was a solid, solid sermon.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we need to encourage people, I just, I don't like critique for the sake of critiquing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: If the person is preaching Christ, then they need to be encouraged.
[SPEAKER_02]: There are two many people that are out here giving you motivational speaks, TED talks, and calling the servants.
[SPEAKER_02]: In ain't got none to do Jesus, but in ain't got none to do with the cross exactly ain't got none to do with the blood If only if I don't hear at least one of those three yeah, I mean it's all three oh, yeah It's a tent up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I could have had a V8 in bed I could in bed I don't know because I have a psychologist.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a particular so I know I have a I have a hunch What people want to hear
[SPEAKER_01]: And I am more than able to pull out clever tidbits that connects people's lives, that talk about, you know, what's, you know, how this is tied to the, that I'm not saying that there are not excellent preachers I know who have psychology backgrounds, by the way.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think there's a difference between a motivational psychology oriented talk.
[SPEAKER_01]: in a sermon about Jesus.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I, and I actually know I would probably be more popular.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sermons are not lectures.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would be more popular if I rested in like, let me tell you some psychological information to help you to see yourself and your emotional regulation and what's next and why you respond this way.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't, don't root to yourself a theme issue.
[SPEAKER_01]: like all like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a place for that, but I don't I think if the Texas is talking about that, I'm not sure why you talked about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that and again, I think there's a that's a great background actually in which to create a sensitivity and to understand people and to love people well.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I know a number of preachers who have social science, psychology, social work, mental health backgrounds, and they bring that offering.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also know some outstanding preachers who have science backgrounds.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, and a law, a law, a law, a law.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: So people who can make a case, it's not uncommon to meet people who were trying to decide, you know, I want to go to law school, I want to submit area, whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that's a thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I actually know people who have like science minds.
[SPEAKER_01]: who know how to who I think are some of the strongest system attitions that I know because they're thinking about patterns and structure and that's also helpful.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think whatever the discipline might be that you come from there's a way that can become something a tool that is used, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It can be like the elements of your real self as it has a physical background.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when you but you don't get to see any of that if you're performing and not bringing your authentic self up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Come on.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know, so really quick before you move on because I wrote this to talk about also kind of like what what what we identify is like bad certain as a week or so like because I didn't have to be okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Good.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think people have what makes her go like.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I don't I hope it can help people discern like and how to be better.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then we need that because there's some people that I feel really.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I really I'm really trained for content now again.
[SPEAKER_01]: I come out of I was raised in
[SPEAKER_01]: the celebratory moment was a big deal and I'm a fan like that never gets old to be yeah you can never do too much in making a big deal about who Jesus is so people might that might surprise people because I think by proceeding me as so what reserve but really there's nothing that people can do in church you can never do too much that would make me feel like oh that's too much you know I'm like run out you know wave the flags do that
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, hit the tambourine with all the things, all the all the above.
[SPEAKER_01]: But in my mind, when I think about what I would say is not I wouldn't think was a good sermon.
[SPEAKER_01]: It isn't about completely delivery.
[SPEAKER_01]: Although delivery absolutely matters.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a vehicle that gets the message to the person.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is not a small thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is important and it's not superficial to really care about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: However, I'm really looking at substance and I've been in enough different, I've been in enough church context in different cultures, different traditions, to know that people have different styles as reflective of their authentic self.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm willing to receive this gift from this person who communicates in a very different way than I might, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So, but I think when I'm looking at a sermon and saying like, hmm, that will need.
[SPEAKER_01]: One, I mean, if it's not true, like I think accuracy, they truth really matters.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if it's not true, if we miss Jesus, if we miss the text altogether, if other words, the scripture is just used as, I don't know, some glitter, glitter, but not like substantively something that you are working through.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think also if you're, if the, if the, their selfish motivations,
[SPEAKER_01]: or harmful motivations that undergird the sermon.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the sermon is a weapon instead of a scaffold, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So I mean, your sermon can be something that can really cut people or can do some surgery.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so there has to be a level of self-control and discipline in which you're articulating.
[SPEAKER_01]: So those are the things that come to mind for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think for me, yeah, that's good.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that when you fail to execute the text and execute the people, and the world around you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I think you have got some, you missed it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You missed it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you missed everybody.
[SPEAKER_01]: So who did you see?
[SPEAKER_01]: You didn't get the text.
[SPEAKER_01]: You didn't get the people, and if you didn't get the world around you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Then what you doing?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a TED talk.
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, welcome to the TED talk again.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nice to see you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I think that, that to me is a big miss, you know, and in a sermon.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think, and I am not saying that the only good sermons are exeges are exegetical preaching.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not the only valid mode of preaching.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just actually don't believe that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: My favorite for preaching is not the form that I actually do.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, right now now that's how I that's how I preach you know for me it helps me to stay true to the text Yeah, you know, and I just I want to preach Jesus.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to make sure I'm pretty Jesus So for me that that yeah, that's how I I preach But I don't think that's the only valid former preacher.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just want to make that very clear But what I'm saying when I say exegy in this way.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm saying more broadly like are you showing this Jesus really?
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, but are you also being able to show how Jesus is speaking into the lives of the people in your church or the church that you're visiting, whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you're preaching too.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also, what is Jesus?
[SPEAKER_02]: What is God saying about our world?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: What does the word have to say about what is happening in our world?
[SPEAKER_02]: That impacting the lives of real people right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: That to me, big miss if you're not able to connect those realities, name people suffering in some way.
[SPEAKER_02]: because God cares about those things.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that if you, of course, is not rooted in truth, I think you miss.
[SPEAKER_02]: If it's a radical, yeah, I think you miss if you use offensive on ethical illustrations that are dehumanizing, that are misogynistic, that demean the humanity of any person.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you missed it, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Gosh, there's, I mean, there's so many other, you know, ways in which, if you don't, if there's a, there's not a sense of excellence that you bring to the Sacred Desk, you know, whatever your style is, whatever the Lord is saying, you can't be, you can't be, you can't be flipping.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think, I mean, there are people who have preached hundreds of thousands of sermons.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a deep respect for people who still talk, still approach the Sacred Desk.
[SPEAKER_01]: who with a sense of sobriety and, you know, prayer and that doesn't mean they have to have some kind of false humility and, you know, but I do think that there should not be a flippancy and I love humor and certain, I mean, that's authentically, again, whoever you actually are is who needs to show up.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you're a funny person, but you're not funny in your sermon, it's to me that's a disconnect.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a real disconnect to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're a colorful person,
[SPEAKER_01]: or a jovial person, and that's not in, that never comes through that I get, I want that person to have the freedom to not do a performance for claim as who they are.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah, I agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do agree with that, so it should, yeah, there should be integrity.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, who you are, probably.
[SPEAKER_02]: Conruits, yeah, I always pray about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, congruits, you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think those are kind of the things that I lift up.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that after, wow, I think you've listened to that, you can tell when somebody has really spent time in the text versus someone who has it to, you know, and has it really plumb the depths of the text or Got it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's not even just that text.
[SPEAKER_01]: How that feel like.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's about a topic, but your whole
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you're a person who, yeah, the kind of the tapestry of scripture and the relationship with God, you're selling, you know, so you know, none of us preach as Jesus preach because We're not a nation and we don't have to say, you know, power or integrity of credentials.
[SPEAKER_01]: So so all of our preaching has to have some element that's a witness.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a testimony to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, and that's where the vulnerability comes.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think that has to be in there like who God is to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just gets to show up so that you leave having worshiped.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and not yeah, I'm walking in a sort of walking away, which I've said this before with internal bleeding.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, because of what was said.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's an appropriate accrued joke.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's the audience.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm saying like the preacher having worship, too.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yes, it's absolutely absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: So anyway those are some of the you know some of the The bad, you know Yeah, I'm sure I'm going wrong Listen, oh, those that have you know, I can have it very easily.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, what's up in my yeah, you know, so anyway I mean, I guess that obviously it's a whole series really, but like how do we come up with them?
[SPEAKER_02]: How do we discern?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think our last thing though would be about how to be a good sermon listener.
[SPEAKER_01]: We talked about wanting to have a posture of wanting to receive, but I do think that there's not a moment in the service that isn't interactive, so we participate in communal input.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's public worship, it's public worship, it's public worship.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I would say even in churches that are highly liturgical and silent, it's still communal.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're still saying there's something unique about you coming together in this room.
[SPEAKER_01]: Otherwise, you could just stay in your living room and you're chair by yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we're called together in a community.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would say that the sermon listener has a role just like the sermon giver.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're listening to the sermon, you are actively praying for the person.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you live your believer, you're like, okay, in that sense, you see yourself as a part of this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you're praying for the person, you're responding in some way.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's, I mean, it's always audible, but you should have a responsiveness to the experience with communicating back and forth.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're also thinking about how to apply what you're hearing to your life, how then will you live and light of what you heard?
[SPEAKER_01]: What's my responsibility now that I know something?
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes we can have a place of ignorance so that we don't have responsibility, but if you hear a sermon that's piercing and true and you know it's true, you then have to leave with light.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: Body language is one thing that I would coach people on if you're listening to someone preach that you're that they are taking in every side you make.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, every move you make every, I mean, this is not just pretty.
[SPEAKER_01]: Every arrow.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're, if you're, if you're, if you're doing, if you're not, if you're doing, if you're doing, if you're doing music, if you're doing music, if you're doing music, if you're doing music, if you're doing music, if you're doing music, if you're doing music, if you're doing music, if you're doing music, if you're doing music, if you're doing music, if you're doing music, if you're doing music, if you're doing music, if you're doing music, if you're doing music, if you're doing music, if you're doing music, if you're doing music, if you're doing music, if you're doing music, if you're doing music, if you're doing music, if you're doing music, if you're doing music, if you're doing music, if you're doing music, if you're doing music
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm listening.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to be, you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I do agree with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then even just a...
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we do you're good serving you did you're just excited about that you're talking to me You're talking to fellow church members about the church or you're like, oh, oh, you should Oh, you should be a blessing the so-and-so like you know, so you share it, you know, not in a oh Yeah, when they was talking about yeah folks that's couldn't you Oh my goodness, like you know, yes, that's not what we should certainly you're sharing it because like I think it's gonna bless you Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's now weaponized sermons against folks either
[SPEAKER_02]: because we can do that too, for sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, so anyway, I think there's some nuggets in some gems for folks to.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm curious what our listeners would say about some of the best sermons they've ever heard and what makes the sermon good or not so good to them.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I've heard a lot of good stuff about I couldn't even say just list off the top of his going, but it's just there's so many so yeah once you know and then I think we have to be more I think also discerning of you know who gets our attention let me say
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we got a little bit more discerning, but who gets our attention and why?
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's about Autolisin and before we go, you know, maybe why, you know, certain preachers are still attracts such a huge audience.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes there's something, sometimes, I'm not trying to, sometimes there's something going on with the way that they preach or something that they preach attractive to the masses.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: That made or made not.
[SPEAKER_02]: Align.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, um, we'd say the marks.
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, of a pastor or the marks of, you know, or a preacher, whatever that context is.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's just some food for thought to think about, you know, as well, there's some some trappings, I think that, you know, and that's not to say if you have a big ministry, you know, my goodness, you something must be yes, but I think now it could just be blessed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, or sometimes it could be, I don't know why, you know, I think it's something to think about, you know, question the questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I just like
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_02]: What is it?
[SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes you outgrow.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have to, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the luxury of being in the context that we're in where we don't experience real persecution.
[SPEAKER_01]: and we have so many options and we have a democratized and we have a commercialistic church culture.
[SPEAKER_01]: So people kind of pick and choose whatever they want.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you don't grow the discipline of learning how to demonstrate hospitality and receive the gifts that people have.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not perfected like I won't.
[SPEAKER_01]: So let me move on.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_02]: So put some respect on your pastos.
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, a good strong sermon for you from Sunday to Sunday.
[SPEAKER_02]: It does much spiritual warfare.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's much labor before the Lord in prayer to bring forth that word and much wrestling.
[SPEAKER_02]: I say with the text in order to provide that.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're hearing good sermons from week to week, you got to be grateful.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, to be grateful to the pastor in your pastor or pastor's, you know, in your your local church, you know, and if you haven't found one yet, then we pray that the little one would direct you, you know, to a good local healthy local church.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know it's not always easy to find, but they're there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know, so.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll leave it there.
[SPEAKER_02]: What do y'all think about, I don't know, the makings of sermons and sermon listening?
[SPEAKER_01]: And, yeah, and being prepared to receive.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let us know, share your thoughts with us on social media, comment, or, of course, you guys can email us too and ask to use table at gmail.com.
[SPEAKER_02]: Watch this episode on a YouTube or listen on your favorite podcast player.
[SPEAKER_02]: Choose tables as I can introduce our, a cabinet, uit, and Dr. Christina Evanson.
[SPEAKER_02]: Our video producers are Patrick Anger, Darryl Bradford, and our video, our sorry, our audio producer is Joshua Heath.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll see you soon on the next Tuesdays table.
[SPEAKER_02]: Bye, y'all.