WEBVTT

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[SPEAKER_05]: Hi, I'm Professor Beckstra, and I'm producer Britt.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Professor Jackie Helfgaat, and this is Prison Breakdown.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Two, three, break!

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[SPEAKER_03]: Eat your foil as fun!

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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm working a bus out of here!

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[SPEAKER_03]: Two, three, break!

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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm locked in here with you, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: You're locked in here with me!

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[UNKNOWN]: Great!

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[SPEAKER_01]: Great!

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[SPEAKER_01]: God, I missed you.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Great, great!

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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not leaving this side.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I'll get out of my way.

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[SPEAKER_03]: The right way!

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[SPEAKER_03]: Great, great!

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[SPEAKER_04]: Ahoi dudes!

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[SPEAKER_04]: Welcome to Prison Breakdown!

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[SPEAKER_04]: Today I have a very special guest for you all.

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[SPEAKER_04]: Today we are joined by someone I've been working with together since 2010.

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[SPEAKER_04]: I started off as her research assistant, she is a teacher, a mentor and a dear friend who got me interested in corrections as a field of research and has helped me build my career to where I am today.

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[SPEAKER_04]: This is Dr. Jackie Health got, she holds a PhD in administration of justice from Penn State University, she's been a force in criminal justice for years, she currently holds the position of Loyola and Dowd Professor at Seattle University's Department of Criminal Justice

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[SPEAKER_04]: She's also the director of the Crime and Justice Research Center at Seattle University.

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[SPEAKER_04]: She's the author of too many papers and reports to possibly name, but she's also got several books, including Copycat Crime, Nova Morse, Psychopathy and Criminal Justice, and Criminal Behavior, theories, typologies, and criminal justice.

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[SPEAKER_04]: She's also co-authored a couple of books with another favorite of the pod, Dr. Elaine Gautison from Seattle University, including women leading justice,

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[SPEAKER_04]: And finally, Jackie has also edited out a four volume reference that on criminal psychology.

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[SPEAKER_04]: Jackie Health got welcome to the pod.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for having me.

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[SPEAKER_04]: It's great to see you.

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[SPEAKER_04]: Jackie, we wanted you here today because you have an extensive experience working in prisons.

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[SPEAKER_04]: And I was wondering if you could start us out by what initially picked your interest for correctional work and correctional research.

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[SPEAKER_04]: How did you get into working in prisons in the first place?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Mm, that's kind of a, it's, it's a little bit of a long story, but the short story is I, I was at some point when I was in college at University of Washington, I was one of my professors, his name was Dale Smith and, and he taught a class on psychopathy and another class on corrections and he took me and another student at Waluala, the Washington State Penitentiary and,

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[SPEAKER_00]: We did a tour of of Walla Walla and it was actually that year.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It was during the time when Kevin Co. Kevin Co was the subject of the book's son, a psychopath and his victims, Jack Olson wrote that book.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I had been following that whole case in the news.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And it was right after he got put in prison in Walla Walla and we went and they gave us a whole tour of Walla

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[SPEAKER_00]: It was just a very memorable experience having seen somebody in the news like that and then seen them in the prison and so that's just one of many things that got me interested in just the idea of, you know, we see all of this in the media and most people don't ever

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, they always say, you know, he or she showed no or more after they get carted off after everything gets convicted.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And then they go to prison.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And then, you know, we don't see anything more in the media.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And it was just striking to me seeing that piece of it after following somebody in the media.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I'd also known people.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I had grown up with that had gotten put in prison and never heard of them again.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, just the idea that when most people think of people going to prison, we never see them here of them again until they are then released, but then there's a whole other world as you know, you know, going on if you, and it's just got me interested in, and just connecting those two community, you know, that unincarcerated and not incarcerated, just like the belief that we,

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[SPEAKER_00]: that we can get rid of people, but we really don't.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So it was just striking to me from way back then, and it's continued with me throughout my whole career.

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[SPEAKER_04]: You're interested in this, like, this merging of worlds of, like, how do we merge the incarcerated and non-incarcerated worlds?

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[SPEAKER_04]: And did you, you mentioned several people that you knew growing up who ended up in prison at some point or another?

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[SPEAKER_04]: Did you ever take the opportunity to reach out to them?

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[SPEAKER_04]: Or did you ever see any of them in prison?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I didn't see any of them and I actually there were people that I, there are people that I knew growing up that I would see people that I knew they knew I actually had had situations where I had to talk to the superintendent about it and programs that I did because you have to tell if you know someone so I didn't actually see and well, maybe that's not even true.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I probably did see people that I knew, and I actually had somebody in a program that I did who was a roommate of someone I grew up with who I ended up having to talk to the prison superintendent and make sure everybody knew what was going on.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So I have, you know,

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I've also the other thing that, you know, that I, I also take my graduate students.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You may have been on this tour.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I can't remember if you did the tour when you were a graduate student, but up to the Special Commitment Center at Mignal Island and to the sexually violent predator facility and I was going through that, do you know?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, maybe I started

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[SPEAKER_00]: I was walking through that tour one day and I look and there's a guy on his walker and I was like, is that Ralph and I sent to the counselor who was taking us on the tour?

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[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, is that Ralph, I won't use his last name but I was like, is that he said yes?

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, that was my landlord for all the years that I was in college and I rented from him for like six years all the

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[SPEAKER_00]: Dirt while I was in in college and he was in the sexual violent predator facility many many years later And he ended up dying in the the facility, but But there's all those there's a lot of other things in my life that you know Girl crosses street for me shows the anger sister of a friend of mine who was one of the green river killer victims and you know one of my first boy friends hurt his mom got

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[SPEAKER_00]: stabbed a death and she, he found her body and so there's been, and when I was, my, my brother, my little youngest brother had a friend who, the mom, his mom rented to someone, it rented a room in her house and she came home one day and her son was hung in a closet and he was five years old and he got murdered by this person that was a tenant in her house.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So I can there's a lot of experiences that I had that brought crime that made crime very real and it's always been interesting to me like seeing the media mediated crime that we all see on the news but knowing their reality of it and so anyway all of that has made me interested in

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[SPEAKER_00]: and prisons, but mostly the idea that, you know, crime is actually normal.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It crime is an everyday experience that a lot of people, it seems like from the media, we tend to think that it's like this, it's in the movies, but it's much more normal, at least from my experience, even violent crime, you know, is more normal than I feel that

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[SPEAKER_00]: is talked about and making, you know, just the under, just, you know, you know, I spent many years in my career like going into the prisons, you know, at night and being a professor by day and then you know, I, I, I walk out of my daughters.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, daycare and I saw somebody that had gotten out of prison who had spent 20 years in prison for murder, you know, walking down the street.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so I know that we're all in the world together.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so figuring out a way to understand that has been a big part of my life and my career just to try to

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, get away from that idea that when somebody commits a crime, you know, here she showed no remorse, go off to prison.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We never have to think of them again.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We do have to think of them again.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So I guess that's the point I'm trying to make.

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[SPEAKER_04]: No, and it's a lovely point too and it's like we have to like they're going to get out and we have to co-exist and they're not gone.

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[SPEAKER_04]: Once somebody comes back like trying to figure out a way to like successfully and purposefully reintegrate somebody so that they're not just like, oh, look, that's that guy who murdered someone every every time somebody sees them.

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[SPEAKER_00]: and they're not gone and some people live and die in prison or in a facility like my former landlord or there's some guys in the prison here in Washington who, you know, I met in the early nineties who are still there.

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[SPEAKER_04]: So, and so yeah, so you've been working in prisons doing research and teaching programs for years.

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[SPEAKER_04]: Can you tell us a little about your history of working in prisons?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I first started going into prisons regularly in grad school for two reasons.

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[SPEAKER_00]: One, I collected my dissertation data, I did research on psychopathy and I was in a medium and maximum security prisons and Pennsylvania collecting my data, but also I was facilitating

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, my most, the prominent mentor in my life is Professor William Parsonage from Penn State.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And his wife, Sue Parsonage, was an art professor at Penn State.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And back when I was in grad school, she was worked for the Pennsylvania Prison Society.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And she was trying to get artists to go into the prison.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It was a Belphante County.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Jail, they called it the Belphante County Prison, but it was a historic Jail in Belphante, Pennsylvania.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And none of the art students wanted to go into the prison, and I actually started out as an art major.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I switched to criminal justice and psychology because I...

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[SPEAKER_00]: I just didn't feel like I either could or wanted to make money from art, but I did start out as an art major.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so when she was looking for people to teach art in prison, I thought, yeah, that's all of do it, because so it's a way to combine

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, my interest and then go into a prison in a way that was a less formal way than conducting the research.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so while I was in graduate school, I was collecting data from my dissertation, but I also was facilitating prison art programs in the Belfont County jail for the Pennsylvania prison society.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So that was my

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, earliest experiences, and then when I went to my first teaching job was at Montana State University and I would take students to the Dear Lodge Prison in Montana outside of Boseman and Dear Lodge Montana, and I would take the students in just for tours, but they had I think they probably

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[SPEAKER_00]: I haven't been there for a while, but they had the most amazing hobby shop, and they would sell.

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[SPEAKER_00]: There's a guy named Lenny Spurlock, I believe he's out now, but he sold horse hair belts to like movie stars for thousands of dollars.

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[SPEAKER_00]: He was well known for his horse hair belts.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so I actually had my that was my very first year teaching and I had this students actually went to the hobby shop and I have I have old VHS video because set of this where they went in and they interviewed Lenny Spurlock about the hobby shop and because at that time they would have the people in prison that some of them were allowed to work in the hobby shop while they were still incarcerated and it was a public hobby shop so I did that for that first year and then.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Um, when I came to Seattle U in 93, uh, I actually took that I haven't done this since them, but I, because it was like we drove all the way to all the wall.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I think we left at five in the morning, but I, I would take students to tours to the prison.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So, uh, I don't remember what year we went.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it was right before Charles Campbell was executed.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I know that because they took us into death row.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I believe he was executed in 1994, as a week before he was,

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[SPEAKER_00]: executed, but I was teaching a punishment and social theory class, and we drove all the way to Walla Wallas, like a five-hour drive and did a tour of the prison there, and they took us into the death row, and we saw Charles Campbell right before he was executed, and

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[SPEAKER_00]: And then I continued to take students into the prisons just on tours and I actually wrote at Articles some years ago, I'll call the Prison Tour as a pedagogical tool and criminal justice courses and, and on those tours, you know, back then they would actually let some of the lifeers help lead the tours, so wasn't like a zoo, you know, like we're going watching them and I love it when they do that.

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[SPEAKER_04]: I've got not a couple of times there, it was great.

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[SPEAKER_04]: Special.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but I also around that time became a volunteer sponsor for the Concern Life Resort Organization, and I started to, and there's a whole story behind why I started doing that, I don't know, but I did start doing that, and then,

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[SPEAKER_00]: And then we started the out of the conversations with the lifers started a program called the Creative Expressions Project and it was I would bring in artists and poets and we did things like poachy slams and and we we would make, um,

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[SPEAKER_00]: ceramic, we did one project where we made a bunch of ceramic faces, and then the guys took it in a hobby shop and made this giant like devil type statue, which I currently have in my office, like putting together all the faces, and and we got grants for like Seattle pick-place market, pigs on parade, we got a grant and got one of the giant pigs,

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[SPEAKER_00]: which it was all, I can go on and on about all the experiences bringing in art supplies into prisons, but we brought in this giant pig that was like a Trojan horse, which somebody could hide inside it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So it was like a huge thing to get that into the prison, but they ended up calling that

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[SPEAKER_00]: Beats out it was they put 80,000 beads on the pig and it then came back out and was sold.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And it's in the pipe place market.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Pigs on parade book and it was sold to I believe this silver cloud bought it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And because I've recently discovered it at the silver cloud at South Lake Union and I took a bunch of selfies with it because we re-enited you nighted after that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: after many years, and we also did Metro bus stops, and we also did art show at Seattle University in the late 90s in the Kinsey Gallery, and so, and we also did a series of scenes, and the guys in the group, I shouldn't say it guys, because at the first early years of the scenes, I also did it in the women's prison.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But we had a zine called the sounds of the gray metal day, and that was a title that actually came out of the Washington State Reformatory, the people in the group, the lifers head.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We had all together come up with that title.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So we have a series of zines that came out of it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So we did a lot of art and public art type projects.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We also did one of my first grants I ever got was from the Soros Institute.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It was a grant to do a program called Citizens Victims and Offenders Restoring Justice.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And it brought together victims and community members and people in prison, they were surrogate victims,

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[SPEAKER_00]: I had two grants to do this.

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[SPEAKER_00]: They were 12 weeks seminars bringing together victims, community members, and...

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[SPEAKER_00]: And it was called Citizens Victims and offenders.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I know we don't like to use the word offenders anymore, but back then we did that.

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[SPEAKER_04]: So restorative justice program, that was the idea, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and but anyway, as part of that program, I was also doing the art program at the time.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So some of the guys were in both programs.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so there was a woman whose daughter had got abducted, raped, and murdered 43 years prior.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And she was in this program.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And some of the guys wanted to help her, and so they created murals that were dedicated to her daughter, and they were installed in the High Point Community Center in West Seattle.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And we actually had the police come into and collaborate on, you know, the final unveiling of that and then when we went and installed it in the community center as a way to give back to and try to repair the harm for that mother so anyway those are just some examples.

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[SPEAKER_04]: That's incredible.

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[SPEAKER_04]: And what was, do you remember what the outcome was for this mother?

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[SPEAKER_04]: Where she...

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, she said it was one of the most meaningful experiences that she's had to, to, you know, both be in that program, but to have that, you know, that much attention devoted to her daughter.

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[SPEAKER_00]: That many years later.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So,

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[SPEAKER_04]: then can you tell us like running a restorative justice program?

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[SPEAKER_04]: I've never gotten to sit in on a restorative justice program like this.

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[SPEAKER_04]: What do you come away with?

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[SPEAKER_04]: And what do you see the guys coming away with?

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[SPEAKER_04]: The prisoners coming away with from the program like that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know, one of the reasons I wanted to do that is I was spending a lot of time with the lifers and I would hear people say, I mean, this vividly remember still to this day hearing this in the night where some one of the lifers said, nobody should get more than a five-year sentence for homicide because studies show that the families of their murdered loved ones stop going to the grave site of their loved ones within five years.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Therefore, nobody should have more than a five-year sentence.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I just remember being appalled at hearing that and thinking that they just, just like people on the outside are very disconnected to what's going on the inside.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The guys on the inside are extremely insulated and not talking or thinking in ways that I felt

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[SPEAKER_00]: we're important to be talking and thinking about, you know, with respect to their victims.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's one of the things that inspired me to want to do that restorative justice program.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I had seen the work of Howard Zaire at Greaterford Prison, who had started this

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[SPEAKER_00]: type of program, and we ended up having Howard Zare come out and talk to the participants, but back to your question, you know, what I saw the people, the, you know, incarcerated, you know, prisoners getting out of this is that,

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, they were able to see firsthand the harm that was caused to victims.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Now they weren't their victims, but they were seeing the harm that had been caused.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, one of the other memorable moments from that program is that there was a mom.

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[SPEAKER_00]: She actually, there was a mom whose daughter had gotten abducted and murdered, and they hadn't caught the person back in the 90s when we were doing this.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And she wanted to know what the last words of the victims were, of the the the the man in the group and no she because she couldn't talk to the person who had done this to her daughter so she wanted to know what the last words of the victims were and I remember sitting in this circle and nobody would answer her.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Nobody would answer her.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And that was the whole point of this was to provide some, you know, whatever the victims were in the group needed.

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[SPEAKER_00]: That's what part of, you know, what we were there for.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So I remember at break asking some of the guys like why would you not answer her.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And they said because they didn't want to harm her even more and they weren't sure.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Whether they should say it and so we ended up talking more through that and actually that person that that was a cold case, the person actually just did get caught recently in the last couple years, but but understanding at a deep level the harm that the crimes that they committed, you know, that the harm that was caused and.

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[SPEAKER_00]: being able to be in a position where they could actually do something to repair the harm was what, you know, they had shared that they got out of it, which was part of that art, you know, that being able to do something, because the other thing that the guys would tell me is I had people that, that, that, that, you know, that I had knew for many years, you know, and they

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[SPEAKER_00]: and they had been accused of not showing any remorse and we would talk a lot about that in that program.

22:14.547 --> 22:29.954
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, what is remorse look like for the victims like what do you need to see from people who have committed the crime and and I had people telling me that all the way from there's one person that got put in prison at age 16 and ended up getting out in his 40s.

22:31.555 --> 22:55.397
[SPEAKER_00]: But he said that his attorney when he went to trial told him not to show anything because he just that was part of the trial process and then when he got put in prison at age 16 then he was you know had to fend for his life you know and then and then and then being in a men's prison it's not like there's a lot of opportunities to talk about your emotions and your experience around everything and so I

22:56.037 --> 23:03.643
[SPEAKER_00]: So this program was a safe space, safe as safe as could be, you know, to try to talk about some of that.

23:03.663 --> 23:04.884
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's what they had said.

23:04.924 --> 23:10.068
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've published some articles that show some of the results of that program.

23:10.368 --> 23:15.572
[SPEAKER_00]: But just having opportunity to share the impact of the harm,

23:16.473 --> 23:26.935
[SPEAKER_00]: in ways that are not usually possible and thinking about being able to discuss concrete ways to repair that harm as some of what they go out of it.

23:27.276 --> 23:34.557
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's an incredible opportunity for both parties for like both the these like surrogate victims and then the guys themselves.

23:34.677 --> 23:43.599
[SPEAKER_04]: And for anyone uninitiated, can you talk a little about what goes into these restorative justice programs?

23:43.619 --> 23:45.620
[SPEAKER_04]: Like what exactly is the format?

23:46.460 --> 23:48.281
[SPEAKER_04]: What are people for that program?

23:49.222 --> 23:58.568
[SPEAKER_00]: Well there's all different kinds of restorative justice programs and that program was a prison encounter program involving surrogate victims because at that time the Washington D.O.C.

23:58.608 --> 24:01.029
[SPEAKER_00]: didn't allow the actual victims.

24:01.069 --> 24:02.530
[SPEAKER_00]: There was there was one person.

24:02.730 --> 24:10.115
[SPEAKER_00]: I actually had a developmental committee including three lifers who helped develop the whole thing so I had leaders

24:17.756 --> 24:20.498
[SPEAKER_00]: And people from the Washington D.O.C.

24:20.558 --> 24:23.700
[SPEAKER_00]: who helped develop that whole thing.

24:25.461 --> 24:28.243
[SPEAKER_00]: So that was just one of many types of historic justices.

24:28.283 --> 24:29.925
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, now Washington D.O.C.

24:29.985 --> 24:32.226
[SPEAKER_00]: has, you know, they have, like,

24:34.688 --> 24:54.368
[SPEAKER_00]: A men's letter writing type of bank where we have somebody who wants to make a men's and can't connect with their with their victim that they can write a letter and it will sit in the bank and until the victim or if the victim ever wants to that type of contact and I know.

24:54.928 --> 24:59.693
[SPEAKER_00]: There's also victim offender mediation now going on that through Washington, D.O.C.

24:59.753 --> 25:02.856
[SPEAKER_00]: and that they have training through the National Institute of Corrections.

25:02.956 --> 25:14.268
[SPEAKER_00]: And so now there's a lot more of it than when I did that program was a late 90s, early 2000s, and it was not getting the same kind of support as restorative justice programs are now.

25:14.729 --> 25:15.750
[SPEAKER_00]: I think, you know, one of the

25:16.370 --> 25:25.453
[SPEAKER_00]: things that happened after 2020, you know, was a lot more openness for restorative justice types programs back in the 90s and the early 2000s.

25:25.913 --> 25:30.775
[SPEAKER_00]: I would go to conferences and present on this program and I would have judges in the back row.

25:30.835 --> 25:39.818
[SPEAKER_00]: I just remember vividly shaking their head or people telling me I was too much of a line with the convicts and not enough with the

25:40.478 --> 25:48.940
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there was always that kind of, and what ways were these restorative justice programs going to be harming the victims?

25:49.100 --> 26:02.843
[SPEAKER_00]: And I learned a lot from that experience about how delicate prison encounter programs are, for example, for domestic violence victims, for sex offender, sex crime victims.

26:02.883 --> 26:07.784
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's so many boundary issues that you have to take into consideration.

26:10.285 --> 26:23.212
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but anyway, there's that was just one of many types of restorative justice programs and I went on to teach I taught a class called restorative justice behind bars in 2012 and one of the things I'm working on now.

26:25.592 --> 26:47.214
[SPEAKER_00]: And that was actually, you know, a common news and some of the guys that were in that class actually have gotten out and I met one recently at a big summit of that at the prison and he had taken that class in 2012 got now becoming involved in restorative justice out in the community and is now working in a nonprofit organization.

26:48.014 --> 26:51.415
[SPEAKER_00]: and you know, working around those issues.

26:51.855 --> 27:00.838
[SPEAKER_00]: But one of the things working on now is to try to start a prison education program up at the Monroe Correctional Complex.

27:01.058 --> 27:06.339
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're planning to relaunch that class again in summer of 2027.

27:06.880 --> 27:08.900
[SPEAKER_04]: The restorative justice course that you're referring to?

27:09.600 --> 27:11.541
[SPEAKER_00]: It's called restorative justice behind bars, yeah.

27:12.471 --> 27:15.133
[SPEAKER_04]: That one, that's incredibly cool.

27:15.233 --> 27:25.260
[SPEAKER_04]: I have always wanted to be part of one of those things, just like a fly on the wall, like witness things, some of it, and then it, like, there's so much I can show a class without actually being part of it and party to it.

27:25.680 --> 27:31.985
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like I'm... Well, I'll tell you, and I don't know how much of this is because I was actually pregnant in the...

27:32.565 --> 27:52.199
[SPEAKER_00]: And in the end of this and in the prison my daughter was born and I was she was a month early, so I was in the prison the night before she was born, but at the only time I've ever cried in a prison was in one of these restor of justice sessions because

27:54.801 --> 28:12.897
[SPEAKER_00]: For a couple of reasons, one hearing stories of like a 21 year old that had three strikes and then hearing stories of a mom whose daughter had gotten shot at age 17 in the head executions and hearing those kind of stories.

28:14.598 --> 28:27.767
[SPEAKER_00]: It's definitely very impactful to hear those types of stories for me as a facilitator, but for everyone to see those and to hear the actual stories.

28:28.827 --> 28:40.895
[SPEAKER_04]: And has it made you like, I guess have your experiences working in prisons made you like more sympathetic to people behind bars over time or how is it affected and impacted your perceptions and like your dynamics with them?

28:41.537 --> 28:58.537
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's made me more sympathetic, but at the same time, you know, I recently did, even though I've been doing these work in prisons for all of these years, I've recently took that inside out prison exchange program, I recently took the 40-hour training.

28:59.602 --> 29:06.226
[SPEAKER_00]: and with Lori Pompa and all the formerly incarcerated coaches and it was a great, a great training.

29:06.807 --> 29:14.131
[SPEAKER_00]: But they asked us a question, like, is there anything that bothers anything unresolved or something?

29:14.151 --> 29:16.593
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't remember the question, but something that bothers you.

29:16.613 --> 29:22.476
[SPEAKER_00]: And my answer was, it still is difficult for me to reconcile how,

29:24.698 --> 29:30.901
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you know, how I'm putting so much energy into helping people in prison.

29:30.921 --> 29:40.706
[SPEAKER_00]: And while knowing that they have killed some of them have killed one or more people or the harm that they've.

29:41.206 --> 29:41.506
[SPEAKER_00]: done.

29:41.647 --> 29:57.121
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's what sticks with me from, you know, I'm constantly aware of the fact of the harm that the people in prison have caused.

29:57.221 --> 29:58.943
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm constantly keeping in mind

29:59.603 --> 30:05.066
[SPEAKER_00]: the victims of their crimes while trying to do what I think is the right thing.

30:05.086 --> 30:08.248
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think you know, when I grew up, I grew up.

30:08.428 --> 30:13.772
[SPEAKER_00]: I was, I don't know if I should do this term do you know the link with, I was a low level dude.

30:13.792 --> 30:19.015
[SPEAKER_00]: I hung out with a lot of people who, you know, part of the reason is why I got involved in criminal justice.

30:19.135 --> 30:23.998
[SPEAKER_00]: I was hanging around with a lot of people that were not, that were engaging in anti-social behavior.

30:24.338 --> 30:29.844
[SPEAKER_00]: I also was a waitress all through college and I had police come in and offer me to do right along.

30:29.884 --> 30:36.871
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was seeing, and I also, as a waitress, I knew a lot of people on work release, who were working in the restaurant business.

30:37.212 --> 30:44.099
[SPEAKER_00]: So I got to see like all all sides of, you know, all of this.

30:44.780 --> 30:44.940
[SPEAKER_00]: And

30:46.361 --> 30:56.449
[SPEAKER_00]: But, and when I remember when I graduated high school, because I was, you know, with all these people in high school and everybody I knew dropped out, except for me.

30:56.489 --> 31:04.676
[SPEAKER_00]: So I remember when everybody was throwing up their hats, there was nobody for me to hug or, and I'm often thought over the years, you know,

31:05.296 --> 31:19.224
[SPEAKER_00]: Why did I graduate high school and then go get my master's in the PhD and go on to be and it's because like I came from a family that You know my uncle and aunt were college professors my mom was getting her PhD.

31:19.304 --> 31:20.345
[SPEAKER_00]: She was a single parent.

31:20.445 --> 31:23.587
[SPEAKER_00]: She got her PhD actually a year after I got mine so it took her 20 years

31:25.246 --> 31:49.612
[SPEAKER_00]: So I watched every, I grew up seeing, you know, my mom working by day, reading books by night, my uncle and aunt, like everything was like reading books and writing, and so what that said to me is that, you know, even though I grew up not economically, you know, in a very economically disadvantaged situation, but I managed to, you know, get out of it through education,

31:55.854 --> 31:57.075
[SPEAKER_00]: help in any way I can.

31:57.115 --> 32:04.501
[SPEAKER_00]: I do think that it helps victims and community members and people in prison to try to help people in prison get education.

32:04.761 --> 32:17.992
[SPEAKER_00]: To remember that many people who go into prison may not be able to have an identity of a college student or identity of someone who's pro social or whatever just because of how they grew up.

32:18.272 --> 32:21.755
[SPEAKER_00]: The person that I was mentioning before who was 21 years old when I

32:22.095 --> 32:27.542
[SPEAKER_00]: one of the times that I became there, you know, that I felt very emotional hearing and story was.

32:28.883 --> 32:34.047
[SPEAKER_00]: Somebody was from South Central LA who came up to Seattle and got his third strike.

32:34.507 --> 32:38.610
[SPEAKER_00]: And I actually ended up giving clemency testimony for him.

32:38.650 --> 32:43.594
[SPEAKER_00]: He's out now, but he got his third strike when he came to Seattle.

32:43.794 --> 32:47.116
[SPEAKER_00]: And he went up to somebody and said, give me your money.

32:47.176 --> 32:49.458
[SPEAKER_00]: That was his third strike at age 21.

32:49.998 --> 32:54.482
[SPEAKER_00]: And that person actually was a high school teacher in Seattle and wrote an article in the

32:54.942 --> 33:04.487
[SPEAKER_00]: the Seattle Post Intelligence are about how we should not even be putting, we should be putting many into education, not into incarceration, incarceration.

33:04.507 --> 33:06.127
[SPEAKER_00]: That was the victim of his crime.

33:06.588 --> 33:08.548
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's just one.

33:08.769 --> 33:13.911
[SPEAKER_00]: But so anyway, I know this is a long way of answering your question.

33:13.951 --> 33:20.034
[SPEAKER_00]: But I always keep victims and the harm in mind while remembering that.

33:20.434 --> 33:40.635
[SPEAKER_00]: Not everyone has the advantage of having a pro-social identity, not everybody has the advantage of knowing how to, you know, of knowing what can come from reading a book or going to college or or doing art, you know, I've learned more about

33:42.017 --> 33:51.826
[SPEAKER_00]: People who are, I'm learn more about crime and I've learned more about prisons, painting murals than I ever have asking interview questions for research.

33:52.606 --> 33:58.131
[SPEAKER_00]: Just because you're painting alongside of someone and they're just telling you their story.

33:58.331 --> 34:02.675
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's a completely different experience.

34:02.755 --> 34:03.276
[SPEAKER_00]: And so,

34:05.837 --> 34:15.945
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I mean, if there's anything I've gotten out of all these experiences is that we are all human no matter a person who's unfortunately, you know.

34:17.150 --> 34:20.534
[SPEAKER_00]: killed multiple people or even engaged in a sex offense.

34:20.574 --> 34:22.156
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's the other one.

34:22.657 --> 34:25.119
[SPEAKER_00]: I've had conversations with people with the lifers.

34:25.240 --> 34:26.962
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've had, I've asked that point blank.

34:26.982 --> 34:36.353
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, why are you trying to run out this person who's a sex defender when you've murdered somebody?

34:36.413 --> 34:37.294
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, why are you?

34:37.654 --> 34:37.954
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

34:38.054 --> 34:39.355
[SPEAKER_00]: Or you're so much better than here.

34:39.615 --> 34:40.015
[SPEAKER_00]: Why are you?

34:40.135 --> 34:41.315
[SPEAKER_00]: How is that?

34:41.355 --> 34:44.696
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's really interesting here in Washington State.

34:44.716 --> 34:49.418
[SPEAKER_00]: They just close the Washington State reformatory and they moved a lot of the guys.

34:49.498 --> 34:51.538
[SPEAKER_00]: I think they're opening back up again parts of it.

34:51.558 --> 34:58.841
[SPEAKER_00]: But they moved a lot of the guys into twin rivers, which is, and a twin rivers has a sex offender treatment program.

34:59.321 --> 35:02.402
[SPEAKER_00]: And I hadn't gotten into the prison for about 10 years.

35:02.482 --> 35:04.882
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I had gone in back in the 90s and the 2000s.

35:07.223 --> 35:25.486
[SPEAKER_00]: I started going back in again and what's remarkable to me is I'm now seeing a world where they're all interacting with each other in a way that I've never seen before like people who are have committed sex offenses and people who have not committed sex offenses and people being able to share it in a in a facility.

35:25.566 --> 35:28.287
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's another thing out in the community.

35:28.307 --> 35:30.167
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we don't talk about enough.

35:30.387 --> 35:33.568
[SPEAKER_00]: Either is like people who've committed sex offenses.

35:33.628 --> 35:33.948
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like,

35:34.348 --> 35:54.347
[SPEAKER_00]: We're okay giving grace and restorative justice and you know trying to help in some way people who've gone to prison as long as it's not a sex offender, but not by a lot of fetters only for like any kind of advantage that comes out there.

35:54.708 --> 36:00.715
[SPEAKER_00]: I even think violent offenders were okay with helping more than so anyway that just keeping in mind.

36:00.735 --> 36:09.224
[SPEAKER_00]: If there's anything I've learned from interacting with all of these people is that we're all human beings and at crime is normal, all kinds of crime.

36:09.244 --> 36:16.011
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I've said that in settings or people have not wanted to hear that because

36:17.118 --> 36:20.361
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't want to think that crime is normal, but it is.

36:21.082 --> 36:25.467
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're all human beings, and we've got to figure it all out together.

36:26.732 --> 36:26.992
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.

36:27.253 --> 36:39.283
[SPEAKER_04]: And I totally agree with your point that you made earlier where in teaching classes to I taught for five years, I taught domestic relations programs and Massachusetts prisons.

36:39.483 --> 36:44.587
[SPEAKER_04]: And and those, I recognize the most of these guys didn't have any of the advantages I grew up with.

36:45.208 --> 36:48.411
[SPEAKER_04]: They didn't have the parents who encouraged reading a book like you were talking about.

36:48.851 --> 36:51.934
[SPEAKER_04]: Wait, a lot of them don't have the coping skills that that

36:52.654 --> 36:56.777
[SPEAKER_04]: came from how you were raised and they would see like they're parents hitting each other.

36:56.817 --> 36:57.798
[SPEAKER_04]: They normalize this.

36:58.678 --> 37:06.243
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm very fortunate that I didn't have this, but they're just people who learned something in a way that is like not conducive to having a healthy relationship.

37:06.724 --> 37:20.213
[SPEAKER_04]: And this is not to excuse their behavior at all, but it's also like I get like if you witness this over and over again early on, I get why it's ingrained in your behavior, where you recognize this is an acceptable response when the rest of society says,

37:22.627 --> 37:22.907
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?

37:23.087 --> 37:23.348
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?

37:23.448 --> 37:23.688
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

37:24.248 --> 37:47.223
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the other thing I'm seeing now that I've known some of these people in prison for I mean some of these people I've grown up with like I've knew them and they're 30 they're now in their 60 and and and and they're not acting the same way anymore as they were in there and so the whole age out phenomenon is is is so real like a lot of people go to

37:47.663 --> 37:54.929
[SPEAKER_00]: Especially men, you know, between boys and men, between the ages of 14 and 24, they're thrust into this.

37:54.949 --> 37:59.192
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you know, these hypermasculine culture just culturally.

37:59.532 --> 38:01.774
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's how they get their identity.

38:01.814 --> 38:03.875
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't talk about that enough either.

38:04.236 --> 38:10.420
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I see them now in their 60s or seven, you know, and they'll get out or some of them are still in.

38:10.520 --> 38:13.583
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're completely different.

38:17.670 --> 38:19.291
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, in many different ways.

38:20.112 --> 38:27.658
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, one of the things that struck me when I toured San Quentin years ago is, like, you walk into the prison and there were a bunch of these old guys and there's 70 sitting there in wheelchairs.

38:28.219 --> 38:31.522
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, like, these are not the guys who are the danger to society.

38:32.562 --> 38:34.644
[SPEAKER_04]: These are guys who are, they're just hanging out.

38:34.724 --> 38:37.747
[SPEAKER_04]: It, like, they're your eyes on mechanism, get them back out there.

38:39.236 --> 38:44.742
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, some may still be, but still, but, but, but, but, but they may be a lot less harm, you know.

38:44.782 --> 38:45.022
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

38:45.403 --> 38:45.623
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

38:45.723 --> 38:46.264
[SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.

38:46.364 --> 38:56.795
[SPEAKER_04]: And nobody should be doing sentences that are like so long that they're waiting until people grow old and die because that old guy who's on his deathbed is not a threat.

38:57.336 --> 38:57.596
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

38:57.777 --> 38:58.037
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

38:58.753 --> 39:02.855
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, can you tell us about your teaching methods?

39:02.895 --> 39:04.716
[SPEAKER_04]: What kinds of art do you focus on in the prisons?

39:04.996 --> 39:07.738
[SPEAKER_04]: And can you tell us about the types of art?

39:08.118 --> 39:10.699
[SPEAKER_04]: You mentioned ceramics, you mentioned murals.

39:10.719 --> 39:16.882
[SPEAKER_04]: You mentioned, you go into Jackie's office and the first thing you notice is prison art everywhere.

39:16.902 --> 39:18.943
[SPEAKER_04]: I remember there's a drawing of two podcasts.

39:18.963 --> 39:19.824
[SPEAKER_04]: Somebody has that,

39:38.800 --> 40:00.673
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought that'd be a cool drawing to use to we were doing we used to all take turns um with whatever we were good at like that got you know the the guys and then the with a volunteers that we come in and so I did what I'm poingalism and that and I did that of toothbrush and I started it in the prison and finished it and tried to bring it back in and then the officers wouldn't let me bring it back in.

40:01.493 --> 40:10.679
[SPEAKER_00]: because it's a bug life on it, but now we did, we did all kinds of, like I said, we did the, the, the, the zines.

40:11.239 --> 40:16.862
[SPEAKER_00]: I also got into it one time when they said I was bringing tattoo designs into the prison, but it was a tattoo.

40:16.942 --> 40:23.286
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a drawing of a guy's tattoo on his back from inside the prison and it, and it, and it came out.

40:23.306 --> 40:25.087
[SPEAKER_00]: So I can, there's all kinds of stories of,

40:26.288 --> 40:46.034
[SPEAKER_00]: doing art and because it was funny because I used to bring these, I had permission to bring all these different supplies and I'd bring in like kids' scissors and then I'd go into the hobby shop and they'd have saws in there so they don't have the hobby shop anymore but they at that time they had the hobby shop and we did all kinds of projects.

40:46.515 --> 40:53.317
[SPEAKER_00]: You know we did like I said the pipe place market pigs on parade, I have a lot of photos of that being made and and

40:54.457 --> 41:00.019
[SPEAKER_00]: And we also did a library of murals that I recently took my class.

41:00.039 --> 41:13.105
[SPEAKER_00]: We have a new practicum course called Concrete Conversations of Journey into Prison Life that we started last fall and brought a group of students up into the prison to talk to the black prisoners, caucus, and the lifers.

41:13.625 --> 41:15.406
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we gave us D.O.C.

41:15.426 --> 41:15.806
[SPEAKER_00]: was great.

41:15.826 --> 41:17.987
[SPEAKER_00]: They gave us a tour of W.S.R.

41:18.567 --> 41:20.568
[SPEAKER_00]: and the minimum unit.

41:21.549 --> 41:24.432
[SPEAKER_00]: These murals were still in the visiting room.

41:24.453 --> 41:29.139
[SPEAKER_00]: We did a library of murals for that children in the visiting room.

41:29.600 --> 41:33.244
[SPEAKER_00]: And I hadn't known what happened to them, but they're still in the visiting room.

41:33.265 --> 41:35.868
[SPEAKER_00]: But the reason that we did that library of murals is,

41:36.949 --> 41:53.042
[SPEAKER_00]: One day when I was going through the scanner, there was this little girl and she was like in it was visiting hours and she was in this beautiful little dress and she probably was maybe four years old and she was trying to go through the scanner and she would go up.

41:53.282 --> 41:56.003
[SPEAKER_00]: And then she gets scared and start crying and run back.

41:56.063 --> 42:01.904
[SPEAKER_00]: And the officers were trying to coax her through her mom or whoever was taking her through was trying to coax her.

42:02.184 --> 42:04.505
[SPEAKER_00]: And she would go back and she would try to go.

42:04.525 --> 42:05.845
[SPEAKER_00]: And then she would just start crying.

42:05.865 --> 42:10.946
[SPEAKER_00]: And then she'd go back and then it took her probably like eight times to coax through that scanner.

42:11.366 --> 42:15.207
[SPEAKER_00]: But I remember that day I went into the program.

42:15.267 --> 42:19.028
[SPEAKER_00]: And we talked about, you know, what can we done to have the kids?

42:19.748 --> 42:23.251
[SPEAKER_00]: feel better, you know, about the going into the visiting room.

42:23.271 --> 42:31.598
[SPEAKER_00]: So we did this, I hope the guys thought it would be good to do like a big library of murals that are now hanging in the visiting room.

42:31.618 --> 42:33.439
[SPEAKER_00]: So we did all kinds of projects.

42:33.539 --> 42:46.170
[SPEAKER_00]: We did poetry slams where we brought in local poets and we did poetry slams and all the public art projects and then projects for the prison, just all kinds of things.

42:47.122 --> 42:48.783
[SPEAKER_04]: And do you write poetry yourself?

42:48.843 --> 42:50.064
[SPEAKER_04]: Did you do any of these poetry songs?

42:50.104 --> 42:51.264
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not much of a poet.

42:51.364 --> 42:52.065
[SPEAKER_00]: I do.

42:52.745 --> 42:56.847
[SPEAKER_00]: I was for, you know, I belong to the Seattle Urban Sketchers.

42:56.867 --> 42:57.968
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I really do.

42:58.368 --> 43:01.289
[SPEAKER_00]: More now, I do pet an ink and watercolor.

43:01.409 --> 43:04.731
[SPEAKER_00]: And I used to paint murals back when I was a teenager.

43:04.871 --> 43:10.374
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was just, you know, but no, I'm not much of a poet.

43:10.554 --> 43:11.495
[SPEAKER_00]: But I do have some,

43:12.175 --> 43:17.556
[SPEAKER_00]: creative writing stuff that things that I did in the scenes that we did.

43:18.118 --> 43:41.877
[SPEAKER_00]: I had one story, I wrote, it's called Of Forest in Prisons, and it's a whole story about collecting my doctoral dissertation, how I'd have to wake up every day and go into the maximum security prison when my roommate was getting a degree in forestry, and she got to go and collect samples in a forest, and it was a whole story of thinking about why the heck would I do that?

43:43.818 --> 43:44.198
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.

43:44.218 --> 43:45.499
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, your lives are so different.

43:45.519 --> 43:50.700
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, you're on the same track to get your doctorates and could not be less alike.

43:51.340 --> 43:51.660
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

43:53.221 --> 43:57.702
[SPEAKER_04]: On Irvin's sketching, one of my favorite Jackie memories is you and I went to Amsterdam.

43:57.722 --> 43:58.722
[SPEAKER_04]: Years ago for a conference.

43:58.742 --> 43:59.742
[SPEAKER_04]: Holy, holy.

44:00.223 --> 44:03.944
[SPEAKER_04]: And we sat there with Dr. Lane Kahnison.

44:05.184 --> 44:08.085
[SPEAKER_04]: And we're sitting there at the entrance to the red light district.

44:08.145 --> 44:12.026
[SPEAKER_04]: And you're sketching up the storm and getting all these outstanding sketchs.

44:13.413 --> 44:16.895
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I have the, yeah, I did a, I did a whole sketch of the red light district.

44:16.915 --> 44:18.816
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because we couldn't take photos there.

44:18.876 --> 44:20.417
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, right.

44:20.517 --> 44:26.000
[SPEAKER_04]: And they walk through and check it out, but it's, it's not, uh, that's something they let you take photos of.

44:26.641 --> 44:27.501
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.

44:28.422 --> 44:33.064
[SPEAKER_04]: So I want to ask, what elements of working in prisons have been least rewarding for you?

44:33.084 --> 44:35.085
[SPEAKER_04]: Have you ever had any bad experiences near time there?

44:35.206 --> 44:38.948
[SPEAKER_04]: And, and anything that you walked away and thought like,

44:39.888 --> 44:40.889
[SPEAKER_04]: Why am I still doing this?

44:40.969 --> 44:44.151
[SPEAKER_04]: Any kind of crisis that it evokes for you?

44:47.253 --> 44:47.653
[SPEAKER_00]: You know.

44:48.863 --> 45:11.079
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of times, like I said to you, like why am I, I should be working with a victim organization, although I did do this stuff with victims too, but I guess the most, you know, one of the most disappointing things that I, well, the most disappointing things I've seen are people get out and go back.

45:11.299 --> 45:14.262
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I had one person once in the 90s.

45:14.302 --> 45:16.083
[SPEAKER_00]: He was supposed to speak in my class.

45:16.123 --> 45:17.264
[SPEAKER_00]: He was one of the lifers.

45:17.744 --> 45:23.787
[SPEAKER_00]: who had they had let, you know, who's a leader in the lifers and they had let him give a tour of the prison.

45:23.827 --> 45:29.470
[SPEAKER_00]: And he went to get out and I actually had talked to his federal and state probation officer.

45:29.490 --> 45:35.292
[SPEAKER_00]: I had talked to the superintendent about him speaking at Seattle U and I had lunch with him and

45:36.713 --> 45:51.783
[SPEAKER_00]: Got him ready to come speak in the class and then I get a call from him and he said he couldn't be there and then next thing next call I got was from a homicide detective and the homicide detective who then later became a friend and used to come in to and.

45:52.103 --> 46:17.182
[SPEAKER_00]: teach in my proof or do guest lectures in my profiling class and there's actually a documentary made about this whole story but that that was one of the most disappointing times to know that this person who had so much promise who was a you know top of the hierarchy in the prison and had so much promise get out and then it wasn't I think it was a couple months and then and then

46:19.944 --> 46:33.397
[SPEAKER_00]: at that time allegedly killing someone, going on the run for two years, he ended up getting caught and getting convicted and then re-convicted and then I actually hadn't seen him.

46:33.417 --> 46:39.463
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd seen the homicide detective for many years and then there was the documentary.

46:40.384 --> 46:48.728
[SPEAKER_00]: And I hadn't seen this person for years until recently, till the last year, I brought my class up and he was back in the prison.

46:49.268 --> 46:55.411
[SPEAKER_00]: And he, you know, he had been in the prison, but I hadn't seen, you know, he got transferred back to this prison.

46:55.892 --> 47:04.816
[SPEAKER_00]: And he actually apologized to me in front of my new class that I brought up and said that, you know, and told the whole class what had happened

47:09.558 --> 47:11.303
[SPEAKER_00]: Do it yet, gotten in with the wrong.

47:12.557 --> 47:19.798
[SPEAKER_00]: crowd and and so that's I guess that's a disappointing story.

47:20.198 --> 47:25.019
[SPEAKER_00]: I know other people that got out and then then died like from an overdose.

47:25.339 --> 47:35.841
[SPEAKER_00]: And so seeing people live so many years in prison and then have a chance to get out and then go back and then having to see them probably mean maybe never get out.

47:36.001 --> 47:39.542
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the the hardest thing or I know somebody else who

47:40.022 --> 48:04.020
[SPEAKER_00]: was another leader in the prison who ended up getting out in his 70s or 80s maybe and now I just heard he was on hospice and so I don't know just what's the saddest thing for me, it mean the saddest thing is the harm to the victims but the next saddest thing is that a person would have to live their entire life in prison.

48:05.311 --> 48:09.092
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's incredibly, incredibly sad to think about.

48:09.192 --> 48:14.554
[SPEAKER_04]: And then like the disappointment of relapse or man, what are you doing back here?

48:14.595 --> 48:20.457
[SPEAKER_04]: When you put faith in this person and you put some stock in them and believed, okay, I believe in you.

48:21.377 --> 48:22.618
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't think you're gonna come back here.

48:22.638 --> 48:25.819
[SPEAKER_04]: That part is also something that gets me.

48:25.979 --> 48:26.819
[SPEAKER_04]: It's hard not to.

48:28.300 --> 48:29.120
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.

48:30.800 --> 48:41.770
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I'm not quite sure what to do with it all, but yeah, it's um, but the other thing that that's hard, you know, that I was reminded of recently going, it's just, um,

48:43.941 --> 49:10.540
[SPEAKER_00]: How many things you have to worry about going into for, you know, bringing, especially most of the Seattle use students are are are, you know, the gender is more female these days and going into a men's prison and just all the different things, you know, I have really it's been very important to me to teach students how to go into a prison and conduct themselves professionally and oddly, you know, you know, it's often.

49:11.260 --> 49:12.501
[SPEAKER_00]: inappropriate things are used.

49:12.801 --> 49:14.682
[SPEAKER_00]: It seems to me more against women.

49:14.722 --> 49:28.888
[SPEAKER_00]: You want to go work in a men's prison than men who want to go work in a women's prison, but it's been, I feel like as a woman going in, especially to a men's prison, it's very important to conduct yourself professionally.

49:28.988 --> 49:38.513
[SPEAKER_00]: And so some of just navigating all of that and the is also has been a stressful

49:40.236 --> 49:50.472
[SPEAKER_00]: one of the biggest stressors just navigating, and you know, from, you know, you've worked in and spent a lot of time, but just navigating all of those boundary issues, so.

49:51.222 --> 49:57.965
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it like, working recently, I taught a class last year in a women's prison.

49:58.645 --> 50:02.827
[SPEAKER_04]: And somebody yell something out, like, I'm not an officer anymore.

50:03.127 --> 50:06.088
[SPEAKER_04]: I can't, and don't handle anything in the same way.

50:06.949 --> 50:14.992
[SPEAKER_04]: And so just dealing with it and trying to diffuse things in the academic way and just put a damper on it.

50:15.552 --> 50:16.693
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's, let's keep it appropriate.

50:17.951 --> 50:28.722
[SPEAKER_00]: but also how to be human with somebody while also making sure you have that necessary professional corrections boundary that you would have in a correctional facility.

50:29.187 --> 50:36.528
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'm not a robot, but I'm also like, I'm not here to try and pick up anybody and it's like, let's put a kibash on this right now.

50:38.469 --> 50:47.750
[SPEAKER_04]: I also want to hear about, you mentioned at the beginning of your career, work in on your dissertation, going into prisons and researching psychopathy.

50:48.050 --> 50:52.151
[SPEAKER_04]: And you've made this career as a scholar on psychopathy and criminal behavior.

50:52.371 --> 50:56.012
[SPEAKER_04]: And for the uninitiated psychopathy is people

50:56.997 --> 51:07.987
[SPEAKER_04]: Researching psychopathy is researching people who have extreme impairments and their ability to empathize and impairments and their ability to value the the feelings and the well-being of others.

51:08.847 --> 51:14.652
[SPEAKER_04]: Can you tell us a bit about how your research and psychopathy has intersected with your work in prisons.

51:16.454 --> 51:20.738
[SPEAKER_04]: Either from your dissertation or even after your dissertation, if you've had more experiences with that.

51:22.563 --> 51:40.201
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, probably, you know, the fact that I studied psychopaths for my research has been the thing that has created so much cognitive dissonance for me as I'm trying to help people in prison knowing that there are people who really, you know,

51:41.891 --> 51:44.473
[SPEAKER_00]: have a hard time feeling anything.

51:44.513 --> 52:02.944
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, some of the earliest experiences I had going into the prison, and keep in mind, I was collecting, this is, of course, dating me, but I was collecting my dissertation data from in 1989, 91, I got my PhD in 1992.

52:03.264 --> 52:07.947
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was spending a lot of time I was in Huntington Prison in Pennsylvania,

52:08.227 --> 52:11.911
[SPEAKER_00]: which by the way, it was recently the one where they had put Luigi Mandio.

52:11.951 --> 52:13.813
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why they find it there.

52:13.853 --> 52:18.218
[SPEAKER_00]: I think they couldn't hold them in the Alan town jail.

52:18.278 --> 52:21.922
[SPEAKER_00]: But I remember seeing Hennington on the news thinking, why would they put him in there?

52:21.962 --> 52:23.003
[SPEAKER_00]: But that was the...

52:23.663 --> 52:41.405
[SPEAKER_00]: one of the prisons that I collected my data in and it's a super historic gossic loud prison and they took me into the armory and they showed me all the shanks and they gave me all the training and I remember every day for a year I went in there as an officer that put his face to my faces

52:41.926 --> 52:43.326
[SPEAKER_00]: close to my face.

52:43.446 --> 52:45.587
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, are you comfortable yet?

52:46.087 --> 52:47.188
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'd be like, not really.

52:47.228 --> 52:49.588
[SPEAKER_00]: And that one day, I said, well, I'm feeling like better.

52:49.608 --> 52:53.609
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, don't you ever tell me that you're comfortable in a prison?

52:53.649 --> 53:00.611
[SPEAKER_00]: And so there's a lot of, and then one of the first days that I went in, they had me go in through this cell block.

53:00.651 --> 53:04.533
[SPEAKER_00]: And I remember trying to dress professionally, because I had never been in a prison.

53:04.573 --> 53:07.694
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, in my late 20s and in my mid 20s.

53:07.754 --> 53:07.894
[SPEAKER_00]: And I,

53:10.234 --> 53:27.859
[SPEAKER_00]: And all of these people were yelling and then I just I still and this is by the way right after I don't know what your silence of the lambs came out, but I I mean I have that in it is images in in my mind and and I remember walking through this this cell block in.

53:28.259 --> 53:28.940
[SPEAKER_00]: Huntington Prison.

53:28.980 --> 53:47.541
[SPEAKER_00]: It was right after the Pennsylvania camp hill riots and the psychologist I was walking with was telling me about the horrible things that had happened in the camp hill riots, which like corrections officers getting mutilated and just horrible stories telling me as I'm walking through here and then I still to this day can see the

53:48.181 --> 54:08.133
[SPEAKER_00]: overweight man in a cell at the very end naked putting his penis out of the bars like trying to and then everybody like yeah so so that was my and then they had also given me this training on like they wanted me to press this emergency button and they had found this place for me in the prison where I was like a dungeon in the sky

54:08.593 --> 54:15.638
[SPEAKER_00]: where I had to go up and they had to lock me into the bathroom to go to the bathroom and I had to knock to come out.

54:15.678 --> 54:16.959
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was all logistically.

54:16.999 --> 54:24.605
[SPEAKER_00]: It was like those were all my first interactions going into a prison.

54:24.665 --> 54:26.366
[SPEAKER_00]: And I used to read their files.

54:26.406 --> 54:30.769
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the first first person I interviewed was a guy who had

54:31.950 --> 54:37.598
[SPEAKER_00]: raped a woman, tied her up to a chair in the middle of winter in a warehouse, and set her on fire.

54:37.959 --> 54:40.362
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I had to go interview him.

54:40.783 --> 54:46.030
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I was interviewing like the worst of the worst, you know, and for that particular study.

54:46.070 --> 54:47.012
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah.

54:47.452 --> 55:00.736
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, and of course, I continued to study psychopathy and teach the psychopath class and and I once had somebody in one of my prison programs who was the subject of one of Jack Olson's books.

55:00.816 --> 55:03.957
[SPEAKER_00]: He's a, you know, who had written son, the psychopath and his victim.

55:03.977 --> 55:11.460
[SPEAKER_00]: He's written tons of true crime books and that person and I won't say his name, but he was the subject of one of Jack Olson's books.

55:12.140 --> 55:31.367
[SPEAKER_00]: And he told me that he had his counselor was working with him onto how to show empathy for people by telling like he would show him a picture of a flower or something and try to get him to have empathy for an animate and object and then he could transfer it to an actual

55:33.103 --> 55:33.544
[SPEAKER_00]: person.

55:33.704 --> 55:42.917
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, just so I guess what studying psychopathy has done for me is just make me remember that

55:44.176 --> 55:47.657
[SPEAKER_00]: that there are people who are the worst of the worst.

55:47.697 --> 56:05.622
[SPEAKER_00]: There are people who create incredible amounts of harm to individuals and society, and even to other people inside the prison, and that as much as we might want to help everybody, you still also have to remember that there are people that

56:07.903 --> 56:22.049
[SPEAKER_00]: For whatever reason they just don't feel the way other people might feel and they do in fact have the capacity to harm someone and to kill someone and to hurt someone and including other people in the prison.

56:22.109 --> 56:33.714
[SPEAKER_00]: So I guess that's what it's done for me all the years that I've tried to help and just try to, you know, not to sound hokey baby, but make the world a better place, you know,

56:34.454 --> 56:40.800
[SPEAKER_00]: I always know that there are people that may not be able to be, you know.

56:41.772 --> 56:44.134
[SPEAKER_00]: that may not be able to be helped.

56:44.435 --> 56:53.984
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there's one of my favorite, my, um, you know, uh, the person I probably look up to the most as a theorist is Read Maloy.

56:54.344 --> 56:56.085
[SPEAKER_00]: He wrote the book The Psychopathic Mind.

56:56.146 --> 56:57.747
[SPEAKER_00]: I did my dissertation based on

57:05.374 --> 57:15.208
[SPEAKER_00]: and he says in order to treat psychopaths you have to think in terms of a hypothetical continuum because you can't treat people unless you believe that they can change.

57:15.668 --> 57:18.752
[SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time there are people that you have to remember

57:20.261 --> 57:23.342
[SPEAKER_00]: may not be able to to be changed.

57:23.402 --> 57:29.765
[SPEAKER_00]: And so so thinking in terms of that hypothetical continuum is the only way you can treat people.

57:29.785 --> 57:32.726
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the only way you can hope that people can can change.

57:32.766 --> 57:34.367
[SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, that's what it's done for me.

57:34.527 --> 57:36.027
[SPEAKER_00]: I know that there are people who

57:40.836 --> 57:47.080
[SPEAKER_00]: awful, you know, horrible harms to people, but at the same time we still got to keep trying.

57:47.460 --> 57:54.685
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, my grandma, my grandma was a, uh, uh, she was the president of Grey Panthers of Seattle.

57:54.765 --> 58:02.650
[SPEAKER_00]: She, she was four foot 11 and used to be out all the time with picket signs, her name was Anna Health got and she, um, used to donate.

58:02.670 --> 58:04.911
[SPEAKER_00]: She had no money, but she would donate to the Southern

58:08.533 --> 58:29.398
[SPEAKER_00]: life, but she's always said to me, say hello to the prisoners, you know, when I'd go visit her in the, you know, nursing home or where, and at say hello to the prison, so she always, I think just having those kinds of values just instilled in me, you know, make me feel like you still got to keep trying, but I do know that there are people who may never change.

58:30.438 --> 58:30.838
[SPEAKER_04]: Right, right.

58:30.958 --> 58:41.764
[SPEAKER_04]: But I like your, your optimism for going back to what we're talking about at the beginning of like, let's, these are people who 95% of incarcerated people are going to get out at some point.

58:42.224 --> 58:47.767
[SPEAKER_04]: And so let's figure out how to, even the psychopaths, like, how, how can we coexist together?

58:47.867 --> 58:58.052
[SPEAKER_04]: How, like, even if you can't be made better, how can you be made to at least fit better in as a puzzle piece and the greater puzzle that is the rest of our society?

58:58.312 --> 59:04.017
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and it's really hard, like, you know, one of my first study is one of my earliest studies.

59:04.077 --> 59:13.225
[SPEAKER_00]: It says it was actually one of the most cited ones is a study called Exofender Needs versus Community Opportunity and Seattle and it was in federal probation in 19.

59:14.185 --> 59:36.504
[SPEAKER_00]: 97, but one of the, it was a, I had interviewed landlords, I did a survey of landlords, universities, property managers, formerly incarcerated to look at the situation in the community, the ecological environment for people in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in reentry.

59:36.604 --> 59:37.344
[SPEAKER_00]: And I also give

59:43.109 --> 59:51.275
[SPEAKER_00]: whether they believe in rehabilitation, but also would you like to have somebody live next door to you who had committed these murder or going down the list different types of crimes.

59:51.335 --> 59:57.379
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was interesting to me that people believe in rehabilitation, but they don't want to have somebody living next door to them.

59:57.419 --> 59:59.840
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the thing that even I struggle with.

01:00:00.221 --> 01:00:07.306
[SPEAKER_00]: Some of these people, I'm talking about who I think, you know, maybe they've aged out, maybe somebody's 70 and got out, but maybe there.

01:00:08.006 --> 01:00:24.783
[SPEAKER_00]: I know that they probably would fit the profile of a psychopath, you know, would I want them living next door to me and my family, would I want them to come over for, you know, there's some people that I would say, I don't know, you know, so I think it's something that we all struggle with.

01:00:25.523 --> 01:00:41.977
[SPEAKER_00]: And I myself, even when I was young, I remember when I was in the King County courthouse and in college and I was doing, I was actually doing research on Kevin Cole and I was dating somebody at the time and I decided to look him up.

01:00:42.397 --> 01:01:09.118
[SPEAKER_00]: I looked him up when I was at the courthouse and I discovered that he had been in prison for seven years for stabbing his girlfriend who he had a kid with and then I had a date with him that night and I had to go to the date that night and I had to say you know I just read this about you and I'm not able to continue this and he was very understanding and and but I was not willing to date somebody who had stabbed his last girlfriend.

01:01:09.538 --> 01:01:23.104
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, whether we want to have somebody to live next door, you know, to us or or date somebody who has engaged in a domestic violence, I mean, those are things we need to struggle with as human beings.

01:01:23.124 --> 01:01:23.584
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

01:01:24.224 --> 01:01:31.847
[SPEAKER_04]: I can't understand why he didn't lead with that in the relationships that, like, uh, like, uh, there's absolutely no understanding in the end, but yes.

01:01:32.107 --> 01:01:36.769
[SPEAKER_05]: Imagine flirting with someone like that, like, so, uh, you ever been stabbed like

01:01:39.384 --> 01:01:40.545
[SPEAKER_00]: I actually liked Him a lot.

01:01:40.565 --> 01:01:41.626
[SPEAKER_00]: It was sad.

01:01:41.746 --> 01:01:54.478
[SPEAKER_00]: It was sad, you know, the whole thing was sad, but I think about it a lot because it's again, that example of, okay, we maybe believe in rehabilitation, but how much do we really embrace that?

01:01:54.538 --> 01:02:01.644
[SPEAKER_00]: And if we're not willing to have somebody live next door to us, for not willing to give people chances, then how are we going to

01:02:02.365 --> 01:02:14.531
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, make it all better because if we continue to have sort of an outcast, you know, you have people, you know, keep people in these outsider identity roles.

01:02:14.591 --> 01:02:24.075
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what perpetuates, you know, the problem of of crime and and so yeah, it's it's a it's a it's a conendium.

01:02:24.822 --> 01:02:33.148
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and it's that wrestling with like practicing what you preach, but it's it's also like in this situation, you You are his girlfriend.

01:02:33.209 --> 01:02:51.423
[SPEAKER_04]: He stabbed his last girlfriend like I kind of understand it's like for safety Why this is such a concern that that would be very difficult Yeah, yeah, so Finally, I want to ask what do you recommend to anyone who is interested in working with incarcerated people in prison systems?

01:02:55.970 --> 01:03:17.406
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, there's nothing worse than someone studying criminal justice or criminal justice professor who doesn't go into, you know, into prison or into the situations and I know a lot of people, you know, might have the belief that oh, it's like you're going and watching a zoo, but my first recommendation is to interact with the people that you want to

01:03:25.152 --> 01:03:29.206
[SPEAKER_00]: don't just conduct secondary data analysis, you know, for research.

01:03:30.500 --> 01:03:45.911
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, wherever possible, do primary data collection, whenever possible, volunteer, you know, immerse yourself in those environments and understand people as human beings.

01:03:45.991 --> 01:03:53.036
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I often also think in the back of my mind, even when I'm writing an article for publication, I can't shake this feeling.

01:03:53.496 --> 01:03:55.237
[SPEAKER_00]: As a, you know, it's now been 30.

01:03:56.939 --> 01:04:10.836
[SPEAKER_00]: 35 years I've been doing this and every time I read an article every time I think what if one of the guys in prison read this or one of the people in prison it would mean nothing to them or the victims read this it would mean nothing to them

01:04:11.497 --> 01:04:22.160
[SPEAKER_00]: and it's just a bunch of data crunchers or academics talking to each other just so that they can get up publication and get tenure.

01:04:22.180 --> 01:04:25.361
[SPEAKER_00]: Like what is it actually doing for society?

01:04:25.801 --> 01:04:34.103
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's the other thing I would recommend, you know, immersing yourself in the world that you're studying and don't and don't get lost in the

01:04:35.383 --> 01:04:51.472
[SPEAKER_00]: numbers and the writing in ways that stop you from thinking about how whatever it is you're writing or whatever research you're doing, how it's going to be helping people of committed crimes or people of invictums of crime or people who work in the system.

01:04:52.962 --> 01:04:53.482
[SPEAKER_04]: That's beautiful.

01:04:53.923 --> 01:04:54.923
[SPEAKER_04]: I appreciate that.

01:04:55.023 --> 01:05:02.287
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you and Jackie, thank you for being here before we move on to our next segment.

01:05:02.548 --> 01:05:10.132
[SPEAKER_04]: I do want to take a quick stop and thank our sponsor Roger Williams University School of Justice study.

01:05:10.272 --> 01:05:31.864
[SPEAKER_05]: But we love Roger Williams University School of Justice studies, they have so many great degrees certificate and postgraduate studies offerings, such as international relations, public administration, sociology, legal studies, anthropology, forensic science, political science.

01:05:32.444 --> 01:05:39.908
[SPEAKER_05]: Of course, we got the big boys over in criminal justice and my personal favorite certificate offering.

01:05:42.301 --> 01:05:49.567
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh my gosh, our favorite, yes, our favorite ship, our favorite ship, only ship by sail, baby.

01:05:51.109 --> 01:05:52.650
[SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for sailing that ship for us.

01:05:52.950 --> 01:05:57.254
[SPEAKER_04]: And thank you, Roger Williams, University School of Justice Studies, for being our beloved sponsor.

01:05:57.874 --> 01:05:58.335
[SPEAKER_04]: Indeed.

01:05:59.115 --> 01:06:02.158
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, shall we move on to our favorite segment?

01:06:02.418 --> 01:06:05.141
[SPEAKER_05]: I think it's time for a movie minute.

01:06:11.373 --> 01:06:16.614
[SPEAKER_03]: The 60 seconds with produce a grid to talk about movies.

01:06:17.075 --> 01:06:19.655
[SPEAKER_05]: Let's put 60 seconds on the clock.

01:06:19.895 --> 01:06:33.579
[SPEAKER_05]: So last time Judge Straugh here sentenced me to watch Escape Plan 2 Hades after sentenced me to watch Escape Plan 1 not Hades in a week before.

01:06:34.659 --> 01:06:43.982
[SPEAKER_05]: Um, so Escape Land 2 Hades is a 2018 film directed by Steven C. Miller best known as the director of the 2012 remake of Silent Night Deadly Night.

01:06:44.522 --> 01:06:50.784
[SPEAKER_05]: And written by Miles Chapman, whose only credits are for Escape Plan, Escape Plan 2, and guess what?

01:06:51.345 --> 01:06:52.005
[SPEAKER_05]: Escape Plan 3.

01:06:55.307 --> 01:07:02.373
[SPEAKER_05]: The movie continues the story of Security Consultant and Professional Prison Breaker, Ray Brezelin, as played by Sylvester Stallone.

01:07:03.014 --> 01:07:11.260
[SPEAKER_05]: He is top-building this movie and appears opposite Dave Batista on the cover, but the two of them combined to spend maybe 30 minutes together in the movie.

01:07:11.941 --> 01:07:19.908
[SPEAKER_05]: The actual stars of the movie are Huang Jialming, as Xu, and West Chatham from the Expans is Crimble.

01:07:21.623 --> 01:07:30.970
[SPEAKER_05]: Also rounding out the cast is 50 cent as the tech guy reprising his role from the original skateboard as the most unbelievable tech guy of all time.

01:07:32.171 --> 01:07:38.597
[SPEAKER_05]: The movie opens with a prison escape mission involving shoe and crimble where crimbles over zealousness gets someone killed.

01:07:39.157 --> 01:07:39.838
[SPEAKER_05]: Next shoe.

01:07:40.658 --> 01:07:52.522
[SPEAKER_05]: is his cousin's bodyguard for a bachelor party and the both of them get disappeared to a black sight prison known simply as Hades where the prisoners were forced to fight and crimble is also there.

01:07:53.302 --> 01:08:00.505
[SPEAKER_05]: Shoo kicks a whole bunch of ass all over the place in the prison and eventually uncoveres the deeper secrets of the prison and its shadowy leadership.

01:08:01.225 --> 01:08:06.127
[SPEAKER_05]: Eventually stone, Stallone and the team figure out the plot and go in to get their boys out.

01:08:07.367 --> 01:08:11.652
[SPEAKER_05]: Unfortunately, this movie was a far cry, and a weak shadow of the original.

01:08:11.732 --> 01:08:14.455
[SPEAKER_05]: First off, no Arnold Schwarzenegger, which is a shame.

01:08:15.095 --> 01:08:21.782
[SPEAKER_05]: Also, Stallone and Batista, although Top Build, spend a majority of the time of the movie in an office.

01:08:23.063 --> 01:08:24.684
[SPEAKER_05]: The plot was convoluted and stupid.

01:08:24.804 --> 01:08:25.864
[SPEAKER_05]: The movie was too long.

01:08:25.965 --> 01:08:28.526
[SPEAKER_05]: The fights were too shaky and stylized to see anything.

01:08:29.046 --> 01:08:32.227
[SPEAKER_05]: And the color palette was far too blue.

01:08:33.428 --> 01:08:37.510
[SPEAKER_05]: Really bad film, one in a half out of five soaps.

01:08:39.391 --> 01:08:41.171
[SPEAKER_04]: Alright, well, I will not be watching that one.

01:08:41.792 --> 01:08:42.172
[SPEAKER_04]: You shouldn't.

01:08:42.212 --> 01:08:48.535
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, as much as I would love to sentence you to Escape Plan 3, I believe it's called the Extractors.

01:08:49.903 --> 01:08:50.204
[SPEAKER_04]: I can't.

01:08:50.284 --> 01:08:58.270
[SPEAKER_04]: I have to, I have to give judgment here over to Judge Health got who hopefully has a good prison related or crime related film for you.

01:08:59.639 --> 01:09:02.742
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I have two of my favorite psychopath movies.

01:09:02.782 --> 01:09:08.807
[SPEAKER_00]: There are somewhat one as it has a prison setting, but, uh, primal fear with Ed Norton.

01:09:08.887 --> 01:09:15.913
[SPEAKER_00]: He's probably the best depicting of a psychopath, uh, ever just the, very memorable scenes.

01:09:16.313 --> 01:09:21.237
[SPEAKER_00]: And the best female psychopath movie ever is Linda Fiorentino in the last seduction.

01:09:21.257 --> 01:09:24.360
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.

01:09:26.146 --> 01:09:31.811
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's start with the last seduction, and then we'll assign you the primal fear, the next week.

01:09:32.271 --> 01:09:34.513
[SPEAKER_05]: All right, and we'll walk the last seduction.

01:09:34.593 --> 01:09:35.774
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, there's a sequel, too.

01:09:35.994 --> 01:09:36.334
[SPEAKER_05]: Hmm.

01:09:36.694 --> 01:09:41.478
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there, I don't think the last seduction is the last seduction, too.

01:09:42.298 --> 01:09:43.159
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my goodness.

01:09:43.179 --> 01:09:43.499
[SPEAKER_00]: From 1999.

01:09:43.700 --> 01:09:44.260
[SPEAKER_00]: I did not see that.

01:09:44.280 --> 01:09:44.400
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.

01:09:50.580 --> 01:09:53.804
[SPEAKER_04]: If it's a last deduction, how do you have another last deduction?

01:09:53.824 --> 01:09:55.066
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a good question.

01:09:55.146 --> 01:09:57.029
[SPEAKER_00]: Is Linda Fierantino in that one too?

01:09:57.489 --> 01:09:57.790
[SPEAKER_04]: No.

01:09:57.810 --> 01:09:59.291
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

01:10:01.234 --> 01:10:03.437
[SPEAKER_05]: No, a whole bunch of people I've never heard of before.

01:10:05.496 --> 01:10:21.071
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, for just a Brit will be reporting back and I want to say too thank you's one thank you again to our sponsor Roger Williams University School of Justice Studies and another thank you for Dr. Jackie Health got for joining us today and thank you for sharing your experiences.

01:10:21.091 --> 01:10:21.772
[SPEAKER_04]: This has been wonderful.

01:10:21.952 --> 01:10:26.236
[SPEAKER_04]: I've known you for years and I had not heard many stories and it's it's exciting here about.

01:10:26.952 --> 01:10:28.253
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, your podcast is great.

01:10:28.273 --> 01:10:30.814
[SPEAKER_00]: It's an honor to be on prison breakdown.

01:10:30.894 --> 01:10:32.754
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to great job with this.

01:10:32.794 --> 01:10:33.214
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.

01:10:33.815 --> 01:10:35.575
[SPEAKER_04]: No, Dr. Hellvka, the honors are.

01:10:35.635 --> 01:10:36.056
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.

01:10:36.876 --> 01:10:38.757
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think that'll be it.

01:10:39.377 --> 01:10:42.718
[SPEAKER_04]: Jackie, please do the honors and give us the saying.

01:10:43.799 --> 01:10:44.339
[SPEAKER_00]: Lights out.

01:10:44.599 --> 01:10:45.579
[SPEAKER_04]: Lights out.

01:10:45.659 --> 01:10:46.260
[SPEAKER_00]: Lights out.