[SPEAKER_00]: Howdy folks, welcome back to the podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: Today, Katie and I are going to be talking about how beneficial it is to marriages, to Christians, to the body of Christ, to jump into the, what we can call sometimes in our home, the gender wars, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: men are always this way or women are always this way or men are the worst like this or women are so annoying when they do this you know kind of clumping the genders together and these you know broad statements that you could get a men's from or you could get you know knees from and his is from
[SPEAKER_00]: But oftentimes, they dominate, I think, Christian conversations, whether that's, you know, in person situations, or whether it's in books and literature, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: You hear a lot of big collective statements made about one or the other genders, and I do think, and then it comes up a lot too, and just like online dialogue and podcasting, and here we are bringing it up again, we're just contributing to the dialogue.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the question is, how beneficial is that to marriages, to Christians into the body of Christ?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because that really is our hope in our aim on this podcast is to encourage Christian marriages so that their families can thrive.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I do think that at the heart of, well, yeah, that institution that God created, when with Adam and Eve,
[SPEAKER_00]: The family, the home, the household, is the most influential institution that we get to be a part of, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: We know that the church is God's bright, and that is moving forward, thank God, regardless of the enemies that are coming against it, or the sin that's coming against it, or that even infiltrates it at times, it continues to grow, and be fruitful, and we're thankful for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think at the heart of the church's health is the home, the household marriages.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that is our aim.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we're kind of looking at this question, rather than from a, just a general cultural, like what's good culturally with these things, or globally, or economically, first and foremost, is this good for Christian marriages and for the body of Christ?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it's interesting because for a really long time, feminism is how to terrain here in the West.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the tide is changing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, obviously, feminism still has a very strong voice, but now there's pushback where there hasn't been pushback.
[SPEAKER_01]: Pushback hasn't been allowed for a really long time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so when I say feminism, I mean, kind of long lines of the me-to movement would be one example of this, where the woman is always right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's just considered the standard.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the man is always suspect because of traits of toxic masculinity.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll put that in air quotes.
[SPEAKER_01]: That means different things to different people, but it's kind of been a buzzword for since a lie she and I have gotten married for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we still see this.
[SPEAKER_01]: This wave, you know, they, there's so many different waves of feminism, but it's still so strong, and I think people are starting to get over it within the church, where even, and even in secular culture, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say first in secular culture, that's what's interesting about some of these movements is that the church is really delayed in kind of,
[SPEAKER_00]: Actually, I say delayed, it's like they just kind of are downstream from secular culture unfortunately.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think feminism was obviously championed by secular ideologies and voices and then eventually the church embraced it and that was kind of the DNA of the church at large.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then similarly, I think with the pushback on feminism,
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know what the word would be if it's misogyny or trying to return to patriarchy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what the term is.
[SPEAKER_00]: People would use for it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like that was first championed by secular culture.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the church has now started to have that same same wave, this same shift.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what's funny is the church has actually been very slow to adopt the shift.
[SPEAKER_01]: And now they're becoming some of the loudest voices in feminism, I think.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's actually...
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Evangelical Church at large, which is just ironic, and the voices that are the loudest in terms of pushback are very secular.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that is giving a kind of almost this unhealthy lob-sighted effect to the whole conversation because you're getting the church with good heart behind it, I think, potentially.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's also just been a lot of female manipulation in the church and they kind of run the show over all right now and so they're keeping a stronghold on what's being taught.
[SPEAKER_01]: The church has been very feminized.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, the church meaning Evangelicalism.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but kind of big Eva, the publishing house is Christian media, yeah, the more formal institutions that are Evangelical.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there's plenty to look at that's wrong when you hear secular voices trying to accurately stating the problem with this feminism in our culture and how Ben aren't being heard there and being appreciated.
[SPEAKER_01]: They haven't had a voice for a really long time.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's done in such an abrasive way, or in a way that is so secular, it's easy for the church to then point at these voices and find flaws in their messaging, which makes it difficult to have a healthy conversation around what gender roles and differences should look like.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it just turns into this gender war where there's a lot of an health on either side.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think that since the fall, you know, like we were told in genesis that, you know, with Eve, women's desire will be to rule over her husband, and I think that you go back to even, like the start of the fall was Adam's passivity.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I, so I think that within man, there's this pendulum that we often swing to, and that is passivity to domineering behavior.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that, and I don't even, I think there are some personality types that exhibit one or the other more often, but I think every man actually exhibits both of those when in our flesh, in our moments of sinfulness, it's passivity or it's domineering.
[SPEAKER_00]: And what's funny is I think that like oftentimes passivity is what leads to this reaction of feeling that you need to dominate.
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to like bring your wife under submission, it's because it's a whole track record.
[SPEAKER_00]: passivity that led up to that point.
[SPEAKER_00]: That brings it to that moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that when you hear these voices maybe in the more, like again, generally evangelical circle, it's a lot more feminist and just I think you get a lot more of the passive.
[SPEAKER_00]: nature of man that kind of disagrees with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like sweet sounds good.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then in both Christian, like you said, it's more, it's in Christian circles now too, and in secular, where there's more of the, what I'll just say, you know, what people might call toxic masculinity or just kind of this domineering attitude, do you have
[SPEAKER_00]: men that maybe have a propensity to that, grab hold of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I don't think either one are serving a good purpose.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's just kind of what we do as humans is we gravitate towards what we already are kind of struggling with and we're not real honest with our self evaluation.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so men that might lean towards passivity are going to consume.
[SPEAKER_00]: the more feminist content and really agree with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: They'll read that literature.
[SPEAKER_00]: They'll be like, this is great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, this is awesome.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then men that might have event towards Domineering, Attitudes and Behavior are going to gravitate towards that content.
[SPEAKER_00]: Be like, yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I've been trying to say.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's really hard to know if there's any positive fruit that comes from either side.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's what we've been trying to navigate here is even in our conversations.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, how much of this is healthy?
[SPEAKER_01]: And is it driving the right change in society because we do have our society upside down?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, when I was back on Instagram, a big popular hashtag was like, the future is female.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like,
[SPEAKER_01]: like what even what kind of concept is that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like Christian women would say that like do we want to annihilate men?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know?
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is the culture was pushing that so hard and it's no wonder guys are like hello.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're a necessary part of society too.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that it's just gotten things have just gotten very out of hand.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it is surprising to me to see, I think, again, going back again to Instagram, just how common it was for women to complain online about their husbands, about the children, about the woes of laundry, about the, you know, just how hard their lives were.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, just had to worship them and say, yes, you're, I just, you know, you go through childbirth.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can never understand.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just, I just, I just had to count down and worship them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what's, we still see this in the church with loving husbands that do want to take care of their wives.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so they're still just like, okay, honey, like whatever you need, whatever you say.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can manage the home, I can manage work, and we could be a good team here.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's kind of this, okay, you have to cater to your wife's every need as this week or vessel, or maybe laying down your life.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now looks like this, like getting tromped all over on.
[SPEAKER_01]: by your wife.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yet like you said, though, Alisha, I think it's interesting to see the guys that are gravitating towards the movement of men need to lead their homes by just making decisions and their wives can be capable enough of managing their homes without their husbands.
[SPEAKER_01]: existing to, you know, enable them, sometimes that's done in a very unhealthy way because it's by men who may be naturally need to have more of that servant leadership.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that is the challenge and that's why it probably needs to be a lot more of a past story or a conversation individual by individual because the woman that maybe need to hear a buck up honey are not hearing it because their husbands are they tend to be in the
[SPEAKER_00]: peacemakers the happy wife happy life like okay I'll just lay my life down and I'll come along side you and and just I want this to work and then the men that are saying buck up honey are the ones that probably shouldn't be saying it and and their wife's aren't the ones that maybe need to hear it they are the ones that maybe need to support you know or say like hey you're putting way too much on your expectations are not fair and so it is really challenging I think
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, the pastoral ministry is so feminized.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so there is, it's not, you're not even going to get that.
[SPEAKER_00]: The pastor is always going to say, like, they're always going to side with the woman this day and age in the church.
[SPEAKER_00]: I say always, it's like, you know, I say that like the majority of the time, that's going to be.
[SPEAKER_00]: be the case where it's like, yeah, the man needs to help more, he needs to be more supportive, he needs to just be more and more and do everything to accommodate the wife based off of what we read, what you hear from pastoral ministries and just ministries at large.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Bye-bye
[SPEAKER_01]: And then maybe on the flip side of those who kind of that maybe the reformed bridge kind of in between Evangelicalism and then the older tradition of Christianity are I think the first sect of Christianity to really realize this or become vocal about this issue in the church.
[SPEAKER_01]: At least they're the loudest voices that I've heard.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then on the flip side, they can make everything almost very extra biblical in terms of okay we're gonna really flesh this out a man should never change a baby's diaper.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know that's a woman's role or a woman should never speak in public.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is a man's role.
[SPEAKER_01]: and these things get so specific that then sometimes it can eliminate that teamwork element within a marriage where it can be healthy and kind of separate almost that unity that can happen when a couple is when a husband is living, you know, taking care of his wife is the weaker vessel and the woman is the help me to her husband.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just think there's a lot of crossover in this area, at least that we've seen in our own marriage, because we've tried all the things I feel like in terms of, okay, what is healthiest?
[SPEAKER_01]: We want to live of marriage that's glorifying to God.
[SPEAKER_01]: We want to be clear in our roles.
[SPEAKER_01]: We want to be a testimony to our children, and then seeing, okay, we know that hierarchy is clear that a life is the headship.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am his helpmate, and that is how we're supposed to move forward and life together is
[SPEAKER_01]: But then there are so many instances where we've had these maybe very clear cut boundaries in terms of actions that we take that we start realizing or inhibiting our effectiveness is a couple and not making us as efficient as we could be and kind of turning things into a little bit more of a tip for tat, role situation versus okay this needs needs to be met
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I do think once you start keeping track of who's doing witch tasks, you've already, you've got, you got off somewhere along the line.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you got to go further upstream and make some decisions, whether it's philosophical, theological, or just practical implementation into your home.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like once you start keeping track and it becomes tip for tad.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're saying this task belongs to you, this task belongs to me and you're having to like keep score that way It's just not a healthy place for anybody.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think anybody's aim is to be there and yet many people We've ended up there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think many people end up there and I do think that a lot of the like you talk about the reform community They they emphasize like these
[SPEAKER_00]: tasks that it just to me seems so irrelevant, and it's just not a real healthy, and again, from my opinion, the Christian voices that are trying to promote more of a patriarchal, traditional view of marriage are very uninspiring and unmotivating.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like to me, they're just not good examples of...
[SPEAKER_00]: Christian godliness, and nobody is desiring to follow in their steps.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're kind of like, okay, maybe you're right and principle, but none of that looks fruitful.
[SPEAKER_00]: None of that looks Christian even.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that is, I think probably the challenge any time there's a a change in of the guards, so to speak, or there's kind of a cultural awakening in the shift, starting to happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just kind of clunky, I think, during that process, and it's done poorly
[SPEAKER_00]: some of the most godly men right now that I know in person and that don't have a platform or that do have a platform that are strong leaders like their strong leaders that led their household well they were them whatever the man of the house they loved their wife they have fruit from it.
[SPEAKER_00]: what they communicate actually is more feminist than what they realize, and so the men that probably should be speaking out because they've got the fruit in their own lives, they've got the track record, and they actually have a mature faith, they still are not showing men or teaching men how to actually be, again, in my mind, like a confident strong leader.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that
[SPEAKER_00]: They actually don't have to be a task-or-e, like a task-or-e-an-to-keep score.
[SPEAKER_00]: They didn't have to do that very often in their marriage, because they made the hard decisions, and they made those boldly and confidently early on.
[SPEAKER_00]: They made them early and often.
[SPEAKER_00]: Whether that was things around, we're going to church here.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is how we're educating our children.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is where we're going to live.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is what I'm going to do for my career to provide for my family.
[SPEAKER_00]: They were confident in making those decisions.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it actually by making those decisions kind of settled a lot of the stuff downstream and so maybe they don't relate, you know, with some of these new voices saying, hey, like, what do you do in changing a diaper, that's a woman's job or what are you doing washing dishes, that's a woman's job, they don't relate with that because of the big decisions they made early on that never brought them to that point.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, that's the interesting thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a lot of men are working from home now.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think it's open up a different set of, OK, how does this now look if he is in the home more and not actually out in the field or actually gone all day?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you said, that kind of just solves a lot of,
[SPEAKER_01]: a lot of maybe controversy during the day in terms of making clear, okay, who's owning what?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then in the evenings, you're all, you're pitching in together if you're raising kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's a, that takes two.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I just, it's just a interesting concept, and we threw out even in this conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think what's unhelpful about it is stereotyping.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's stereotyping, men are this way, women are this way, and I mean, we even did that with certain sex of Christianity, okay?
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't want to just put those blankets on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, so that people in jellicalism is feminism, the reformed community is,
[SPEAKER_01]: patriarchal and maybe a unhealthy sense, you know, or maybe a teaching and healthy sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, worse.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that's actually the case.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think some of the loudest voices in both of these fields, at least that we're hearing in our echo chamber, are this way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is some incredible reformed men that we both look at too and women and same with evangelicals and so we aren't trying to like.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know we blanket statement it but I think that's actually what's unfortunate in the whole conversation so it's funny that we did this is that when you start.
[SPEAKER_01]: calling out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, women are, you know, um, well, let's start with men because I think men call out first.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, they're either domineering or they're passive, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: You call out men acting in a sin nature and then just put that on every man.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, yes, all men are capable of acting in a sin nature, but that's not who they are in Christ.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're also capable of patriarchy being
[SPEAKER_01]: just being this incredible blessing and umbrella to the home and to the family and to take a burden off the wife's shoulders of making all these decisions and carrying all these problems.
[SPEAKER_01]: I experience that in our home.
[SPEAKER_01]: I experience a life-sharing the burden of our family and I don't have to deal with it and it's a gift.
[SPEAKER_01]: and our home.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think the same thing is happening now with women, where it's like, okay, they're speaking to feminism at large, but then I think some husbands are putting this on their wives or maybe it's not there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where, okay, women are manipulative, women are just seductive, women are, you know, just going through that they,
[SPEAKER_01]: fall and temptation easily.
[SPEAKER_01]: They all these things that are true of a woman's sin nature.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then choosing to see every woman is just walking in her flawed sin nature, where we see and scripture these beautiful examples of women like Ruth and Naomi and Esther and Mary and Elizabeth, you know, who are these wonderful women who are walking in the grace of Jesus Christ.
[SPEAKER_01]: and how this beautiful role in their home and are making everything and everyone around them better.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's kind of an unfair conversation when we argue sin nature to sin nature, or put that on our spouse.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, this is your sin nature, so this is how I'm choosing to see you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: And instead of, this is who you are in Christ, it doesn't mean we always walk in that power or in that grace.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think that's what makes these gender wars difficult to bring them into our marriage because it's easy to call out the Sin Nature and someone's gender on a podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you know that everybody can attest to it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it was like yeah, I've totally seen that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've experienced that like
[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen women controlling their husbands.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen women controlling the church.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen them manipulating their emotions and they're all these things, you know, to toestment around their fingers.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I do see that every single day.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also, it's not that I haven't walked in that, you know, in the flesh.
[SPEAKER_01]: But also, I don't want to lie shit to choose to see me as that.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, he married a Christian woman.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's more inspiring if he chooses to see me as capable of walking in the grace and righteousness of Christ.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm doing me that way instead of a fallen creature.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I do view that way and I feel like you view me as a Christian man.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is when we're thriving the most in our marriage.
[SPEAKER_00]: When we just are seeing each other as a new creation in Christ.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we are not attributing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we're not.
[SPEAKER_00]: attributing the sinful attributes that we know we're both if like we put on paper.
[SPEAKER_00]: We both know we're capable of these terrible things and if we start to just putting that on the other person That would be a very unhelp helpful thing to do and it would be an unhealthy marriage.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a really good
[SPEAKER_00]: perspective to half.
[SPEAKER_00]: Katie, we're like, okay, is it actually that helpful for me to sit back and view my spouse, or view women at large through the, especially Christian women through the lens of like in the flesh, they're all prone to this or to sit back and view men say in the flesh, they're all prone to this.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's again.
[SPEAKER_00]: with your spouse like you are joined together as one and you want to I think seeing the virtue and seeing the godliness in your spouse is a great way to cultivate more you call that out you call them up and that that going back to some of my favorite marriages that I get to witness you know or that I get to look to as an example
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that happens often is that they're choosing to highlight the virtue and the praise worthy behavior and character of their spouse.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that actually cultivates more of that in their spouse.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's just this like positive, what is your dad call it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the instead of a, it's to the, what's the cycle?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the vicious cycle, the delicious cycle.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, get out of the vicious cycle and get back to the delicious cycle.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think that we were all capable of doing that when we changed the way we think about ourselves, and I'm really glad you brought up that throwing blanket statements to those evangelicalism or reformed people or, you know, charismatic, because I can say firsthand that like some of my favorite examples and mentors and, you know, I guess people I look to in marriage come from all those camps.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you know, so they're across the board.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're across the board and it throughout all the things that we just made a blanket statement about and that's the last thing we wanted to do and so yeah, I kind of let's always any time you start throwing out terms and, you know, making huge statements, it's your you fall into danger of
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it is good to note though, maybe this is our intention and bringing this up.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're in a certain camp, not necessarily looking to accept someone else that shares that same theology's viewpoint on something, hook line and sinker.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that can be kind of the danger because there's wonderful people that are walking out their faith and their marriages in all these different doctrinal camps.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's not like this one person that shares your theology necessarily has a very mature marriage and when they are teaching authoritarianly on like what men and women shouldn't do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that that's just something to look to.
[SPEAKER_01]: Look to the fruit of the relationship, look to the longevity of the relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think
[SPEAKER_01]: My dad and mom, they teach a lot, they coach a lot of marriages, and something that my dad always says is you can tell how good a husband's loving is wife by how vibrant she is.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if she just has this energy and this joy and this happiness, and my mother was always a very vibrant woman, even though my dad brought her through a lot of different ups and downs, I do think he loved her very well, because she always had this vibrance and this
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it made up for maybe the stresses that they went through together and things like that and I think that's a really good Kind of it's objective, but it and it may be it's not accurate in all seasons, but just over the course of a lifetime If a woman is able to Be glowing and have energy and be gracious and and just look very content in our marriage and not be this very needy woman
[SPEAKER_01]: Then you're like, okay, there's something that her husband's doing right there, above that it's her relationship with Christ, is the most important, but I think that could be very important if you're looking at someone's marriage.
[SPEAKER_01]: And likewise, is the husband, is he confident, is he at ease with his opinions, with his thoughts, is he, I don't know what you would say, kind of how a husband would look when he knows he's the leader and he doesn't have to,
[SPEAKER_01]: fluff his feathers necessarily.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'll just speak for my own experience and that's dead.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's dead on is is like if I have to start getting to the Okay, what am I doing washing the dishes or hey, I need to be like you need to leave me alone not involve me in any of the kids things here because I got to work.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I got to get more work done out in the market place and make more money
[SPEAKER_00]: Any time my brain's been there, it's been very unhealthy and it's been when I'm not in moments of confidence and security in the Lord and feel like I've actually been leading properly or effectively.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when you see that in men, it's unfortunate, but it's me, it's the symptom of just already not leading properly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, it's like, and maybe you have to go through that to get to a place where you are leading properly, but it's kind of an, it's an unhealthy symptom of what's for me anyways.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, what was taking place again upstream.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I do think that that I know I already said this, but I do think it is worth noting because this has been our personal experience as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: The moments of angst when there's been just general marital angst or.
[SPEAKER_00]: Confusion on tasks within our God-given roles.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's when I was failing to make a big decision, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Whether that was where we're going to church, you know, a theological decision.
[SPEAKER_00]: What we're doing for the kids school and where we're going to live, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, are we selling the house?
[SPEAKER_00]: Are we not selling the house?
[SPEAKER_00]: What are we going to do with this business decision?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I let some of these things pile up, and I was indecisive, and that is just going, if you want to compare the, you know, the husband's role to the CEO, like a CEO just has to make the decision.
[SPEAKER_00]: and live with the consequences that come from it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you just sit in on his hands and getting his just paralysis by analysis, that brings a lot of angst to the company and that brings a lot of angst into a home.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that there is so much clarity and peace that comes when a husband says,
[SPEAKER_00]: what you know with humility, you like you don't have to say, I know for a fact that this is 100,000 percent the best decision.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can just say this is the decision that we're going to make.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to go to church here.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to send the kids to this school and we're going to homeschool them.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to pull them out of this program.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to put them into this program.
[SPEAKER_00]: and have a humble confidence in doing those things.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the confidence of being that the confidence comes from knowing that that's your job, not that you're always going to make the right decision, but knowing that way to second, a decision needs to be made, and I'm the one that needs to make the decision.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm going to make the decision, because I do think that I don't know if you would agree, but I do think that's when most of the angst has come in our marriage, is when I've been putting off and putting off.
[SPEAKER_00]: making a decision that I knew fell on my shoulders, but I just wasn't decisive enough, or I was procrastinating.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think it's interesting that you see that, because I think it's really like a male leadership that has blessed our home the most.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's very high level.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you said, it's CEO stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think so often we talk about genders and roles and things like that, from a very low level perspective of the tasks.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, that's the lowest level of what is going on actually in the home.
[SPEAKER_01]: When the high level stuff is right and you know, all I should have gotten so good, it's just like making a call, that doesn't mean we don't have conversations about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, I'd say that would be like a lower level, even thing like the discussion.
[SPEAKER_01]: The high level is the CEO making the decision on where resources and time are going.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, but having conversation about it, gathering research, stuff like that, Alisha still does in her home.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that sometimes one of the man isn't maybe making decisions well.
[SPEAKER_01]: He just makes the decision as the CEO without gathering data first, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that would be talking to his wife, seeing what her take is on the kids and the health of the home or things like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think a CEO that leads well isn't threatened by gathering data.
[SPEAKER_00]: exactly about what's going on right in order to help them make that decision first like I'm going to make it blind and I'm going to make it all my own because yes I'm in charge and I wear the path the last thing I want is her opinion influencing the decision I make because that would mean that I'm not you know completely leading here yeah
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I think there's things like that, like when you picture it as this business hierarchy, all the pressure is on a line should make the decision, but I feel so much like he takes the health of the company and the opinions of who else is in the company to heart in that decision.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I feel very safe and comfortable on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think a lot of the gender word discussions come down to is she contributing finances to the home, or working outside the home a day a week, or it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: He, you know, making dinner.
[SPEAKER_01]: Making dinner once a week.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think.
[SPEAKER_01]: as a whole in our society, men are enabling their wives.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think because of the stay at home situation, that is honestly just made it difficult.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're in the work from home.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry.
[SPEAKER_01]: Work from home situation, that is made it difficult to navigate.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think women are a lot more capable.
[SPEAKER_01]: At least we have been historically.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then we are performing at especially a state home mom in today's standards and I'm not saying it's hard, but God is not hard.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying that it's not hard.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, sorry.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, thanks.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so glad you're here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just skipping the most important words.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is what happens if you don't have a head in your life.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I've got to exercise my headship.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can tell you and tell you what you're supposed to say.
[SPEAKER_01]: He does when I'm trying to say what I want to say.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I'm not saying it's not hard, but historically God has required hard things from his people.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is where growth and beauty and actual personal fulfillment happens.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of women are personally stressed and overwhelmed and unfulfilled in their roles because they can't really take credit for a lot of what's going on in their home.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're just kind of surviving and relying on their husbands.
[SPEAKER_01]: to make the food, to pick up the pieces, to overlook their incapabilities, if home management, and instead of feeling like I did a really good job today, I have building their own confidence with little winds, or like I stood on my own to feed.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, it's a physically demanding job, but when you just look at women of history,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, something I love, I brought a little house in the prairie, like a lot recently for whatever reason.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know it's like this kind of like, fictionalized account of the West, but Laura never mentions Ma's pregnancies, deliveries, or whatever, and obviously those weren't probably the easiest things out in the prairie, like who knows where she's delivering, what's going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Her tasks didn't lessen, but it just, it didn't show up in terms of their family's mission and where they were going and what they were doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ma was created to physically be able to sustain this process that God gave her and created her for wall still moving forward her husband's vision.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that that's something that us Western them and at least today, really, we just think the world stops and revolves around our morning sickness, our postpartums, our laborers and deliveries.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not saying it's hard and brutal, I mean, women have died a lot more in times past than now.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're saying that it is hard and brutal, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's sort of brutal, you know, but we actually have an easier than any other time in history.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yet, we tell our husbands world to stop and our kids world to stop.
[SPEAKER_01]: And everybody's world to stop because, oh my goodness, I'm going through a physically hard time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that that actually can contribute to a lot of the postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety is we lose our sense of purpose and our sense of being needed because we just need everybody else.
[SPEAKER_01]: No one is relying on us in these situations.
[SPEAKER_01]: where in times past women were still relied on while they were going through these things.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we know from our experience with the six kids, your best postpartums have been when I wasn't available for two weeks afterwards or for even a week afterwards.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was, I had to get back to work.
[SPEAKER_00]: We were in the middle of a project, we were in the middle of something that required me to get back after it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, uh,
[SPEAKER_01]: like we've moved twice to a week's postpartum, you know that was not like easy but it's like the mission needs to keep moving forward and you just there's there is this sense of like you don't have time to think about yourself and I think sometimes we as women have too much time to think about ourselves and our needs and how uncomfortable we are and how painful this is.
[SPEAKER_01]: So anyways, I do think there is this strong pushback because a lot of men and now, you know, I just was reading Gone with the Wind and it's like, women were trained at these young ages of 15 or 16 to take over a household, get married at that age and now take over a household and a plantation of a hundred slaves.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know slavery is not an ideal situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying that, but say those were, it's like running a company with 100 people.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's gonna be profit loss now that is on her shoulders.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she is now going to be,
[SPEAKER_01]: either increasing that husband's wealth and productivity or really squandering it because that's a lot of mouths to feed and people to take care of if they aren't producing you know and so it's like wow that was really on a woman to manage the home women manage the plantations you know the men owned him and they say the women manage them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, and that's something that I was going to say is that I do think that it will be extremely challenging for a lot of women because of the lack of preparation, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: We are, again, coming downstream from feminism where all the domestic arts were not valued, they were saying they're petty, they're not worth anything, you need to, like, not do any of these things, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so now they have a heart to do those things and they don't have the capabilities, but I think we can all grow in those capabilities.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I consider this when I had a conversation with, and this was just kind of a passing comment that was made and I was talking to a couple, and she said, you know, the wife said one of those comments, I think is very common.
[SPEAKER_00]: She has young children, and she's, you know, keeping the home.
[SPEAKER_00]: She goes, my husband's days are objectively easier than my days.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, he goes to a nice office.
[SPEAKER_00]: He, you know, works with a ton of adults.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, he's like, I don't know, 15 years into his career now, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's in a leadership position.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's in this nice office.
[SPEAKER_00]: He goes out to lunch with colleagues or even with friends every day.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then he comes home.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she was just kind of saying, like, my day is objectively harder than his task wise.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that could be up for debate, because anybody that's even in a leadership position that has a lot of responsibility on them, there's just stresses that you can't quantify by saying like, oh, they got to spit up on their shirt or they, you know, had to change a dirty diaper, so that in it of itself.
[SPEAKER_00]: So like let's just, let's say hypothetically,
[SPEAKER_00]: the man's day for that season of life is let's just say it's easier right okay but let's say that it is I think the if it is it's because of the 20 years leading up to that is what I'm saying that and and well and this one in particular he was a he was an Ivy League grad both undergrad and and post grad and uh and uh
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're like, well, that started back it in his teenage years, him making hard decisions to do work to get to that level and then the preparation.
[SPEAKER_00]: So okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that was hard.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you get through, I've like, and then he got a job with a company right out of high school.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now he's in this position.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, I don't even think it is easier, but let's say that it is, it's because of what if it is that he's in this position where he's getting compensated a lot for his time, it's because of the 20 years previous that led him to there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I do think it is a little bit unfortunate right now, and you could even say unfair on some women because maybe the men or the people that have chosen the career have been preparing for this moment for 20 years.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so they are more equipped to execute that
[SPEAKER_00]: that role, right, as a businessman, as a professional, whatever, maybe.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then a woman's not been prepared at all for this.
[SPEAKER_00]: They've like been encouraging them in the opposite direction, and they're saying, okay, now you're, whatever, 30 years old, and you've got three kids, and they're not equipped at all for it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I do think that there is a, there is, there is a truth to that, I guess is what I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that it is part of the ability,
[SPEAKER_01]: It's harder, I do think it's harder, like you said, because women aren't prepared.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, yeah, like even going back to this whole like south thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like women were trained for this to then be able to enter those roles.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think there hasn't been preparation and giving women, this is why I think I'm a big fan of women being well educated, just so they learn time management.
[SPEAKER_01]: like how to manage themselves, because I think a lot of women go into home management and they can't manage at home because they can't manage their own schedule.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is very difficult.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd say the hardest part of being a state home mom or a work part-time working mom or whatever is managing your time when it's all on your shoulders.
[SPEAKER_01]: And no one's telling you, get up, go here, do this now, now do this, now do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so you really need to, that's a high level activity that we kind of treat is this like.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you're no one can do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think if women have a hard time managing their homes,
[SPEAKER_01]: It's because they haven't been doing it well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like a home isn't, especially in the 21st century, that hard to manage.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've got a lot of tools, we have a lot of things that are disposal.
[SPEAKER_01]: What I'm not managing our home well, it's because I've let it fall to such a state of district pair, it's hard to get back on top.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's like, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it
[SPEAKER_01]: it only an objectively harder job if you haven't done a good job in the beginning.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Does that make sense?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not that hard to do to make.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think, and this is, and that might sound discouraging for just lead lead because I think it's the same thing with leading your home.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like when you're poor, leading your home as a man in the beginning, it just makes the home very hard to lead down the road.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you're thinking, well, how do we go back and make up for all that last time, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you could say, oh, it's like the same, you know, the heart surgeon that like,
[SPEAKER_00]: comes into the procedure room and he's there for like five minutes or ten minutes or whatever, you know, to do his portion of the process and he's making millions of dollars and people are like how is like he was in here for like 15 minutes and he gets compensated in this way whereas though the people you know emptying the trash can or the people you know the nurses preparing for surgery and all the all the technicians are like it
[SPEAKER_00]: getting compensated less is like we'll know he put in all the time before like he put in all the thousands and thousands of hours and so he's getting compensated for that right now even though it looks like the task is easier I think it doesn't always apply like so there is an element to that but I think you can make up for that last time as a as a godly man in leading and as a godly woman
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, one obvious reason is is because we have the Holy Spirit, like spiritual growth and formation transformation, which is really what we're talking about when it comes to roles and gender roles and the battle of the genders, it's we need to grow in godliness and that can happen in extremely expedited ways because it's the Lord's work, like it's the Lord's do it, the Lord doing the work and so the fruits of the Spirit that we all want to have be evident in our life
[SPEAKER_00]: Aren't the type of things where you're saying like, well, maybe if I go back to school and in 16 years, I'll be able to have love, joy, peace, patience, kindness in my home.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, no, you can submit yourself to the Lord today, and you can have an attitude of confident leadership as a man.
[SPEAKER_00]: And say, man, with humility, I'm going to take on this responsibility and with the Lord's help.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to make decisions, and I will fail along the way, but I'm going to be doing it in a way that's honoring to the Lord.
[SPEAKER_00]: my children can respect and honor because I'm loving them and I'm showing humility in my leadership.
[SPEAKER_00]: So those aren't the type of, maybe the tactics will require time and it will require some trial and error, but the attitude of God they miss or the spirit of God they miss can be in a moment with with you just submitting yourself to the Lord with you saying I'm going to abide or whatever, you know, terms you want to use where it's like I'm going to walk in the spirit here and have
[SPEAKER_00]: all these attributes that that only the Lord can give.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I've got access to because that is just a truth.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it as a new creation in Christ?
[SPEAKER_00]: You actually do have access to all the fruits of the Spirit.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't always walk in them.
[SPEAKER_00]: We maybe we need to learn to access them.
[SPEAKER_00]: But we are, you know, we are freed from sin and now free to walk in righteousness if we choose to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: He just has it so easy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And instead, the only way to grow is by moving forward and taking responsibility.
[SPEAKER_01]: and actually pushing off your husband's help and I've had to do this because Alisha wants me to do well and has there been times in our marriage where he's been like, okay, I'll take the kids, I'll do this, I'll do this and it's never been enough for me because I'm not growing in my capabilities.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so there are times now, you know, he'll offer to take the kids or offer to buy dinner out or things like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would be like, no, I got it, I'll take care of this, I can manage, and that's how I'm going to grow and capabilities.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I'm always accepting the help that's coming or I'm demanding the help that's coming and base my life around it.
[SPEAKER_01]: that I'm never going to grow in the capabilities.
[SPEAKER_01]: And why you know this is possible is because I can personally look around and see women with more children where their husband's gone more, they have more responsibilities, their homes cleaner, their foods better, and their children are happy and better educated.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so to me, it is possible, it's a, it's me needing to grow in discipline and most specifically spiritual discipline.
[SPEAKER_01]: in order to bring my flesh under subjection to what Christ is the role, Christ is placed in front of me and walk in that and get better at relying on him and his strength and give me wisdom Lord and I want to move forward.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so this doesn't mean that you can't have any help obviously or anything like that, but growing in these capabilities is only going to come from shrugging off those limitine beliefs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, this isn't who I am or this isn't my personality or I wasn't trained well for this or I'll never thrive in this role because again historically you died if you didn't thrive in that role.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm serious like if you couldn't put meals on the table and your cleanliness actually was affecting your kids' health and then they die because we don't have an idiotics everyone stars or dies like a woman's
[SPEAKER_01]: It was very important, and it is very important today to the health of our homes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think it's something we're leaning into.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyways, we got on rules, we got away from like gender wars.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think like the bigger picture of gender wars, we bring, we're listening to podcasts, we're listening to commentators, we're listening to things.
[SPEAKER_01]: and then we bring it whatever we're listening into our own marriages.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, Elijah and I have just found we need to be very careful in what we're bringing in mentally and putting on our spouse.
[SPEAKER_01]: And instead of being like, okay, we want to seek the Lord in this, we want to grow and righteousness together, we want to grow and unity together, we want to be this really efficient team.
[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes,
[SPEAKER_01]: We want to keep the hierarchy always biblically correct with a life-shamaking those decisions being the head of me being as help me, but then not necessarily comparing ourselves to everybody else's marriage in terms of what tasks he does, what tasks she does and like the lower level stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: We found that sorts of self-out in our marriage when the big picture things are in life.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think in this many pastors have made jokes about this, but like when you're sitting in church and you're listening to a message and if your thoughts are like, oh, man, I wish my wish my brother could hear this message or you know who really needs to hear this message is my wife, I do think that that
[SPEAKER_00]: should always be a heart check, you know, maybe even you're listening to this podcast, my spouse needs to hear this or my, you know, my, my daughter needs to hear this.
[SPEAKER_00]: My mom needs to hear whatever it is, you know, it's like, okay, well, maybe hold on for a second there.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's probably not the right response.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that that comes up a lot when you're listening to popular cultural commentators talk about, uh,
[SPEAKER_00]: gender, right, and just men and women.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you're thought ever goes to like, yeah, you know who needs to hear this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like my spouse needs to hear this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like no, maybe it's time to step away from that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And just into listening to something that's actually encouraging you to just to grow as a husband listening to something that's going to encourage you to grow as a wife, not something that's going to encourage you to start nitpicking your spouse.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that can just kind of be one of those gut checks, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Have hopefully have these some self-awareness, then I don't think I do this that perfectly, but I want to grow and doing this, or I'm thinking like, wait a second, my response to this isn't actually propelling me towards godliness and helping me as a leader of our home.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's, we shouldn't on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's really good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Folks, thank you all so much for listening, and we'll talk to you next time, bye-bye.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bye.