[SPEAKER_01]: So have you ever had one of those moments with your partner where you start talking and then all of a sudden you're totally frustrated with one another and you just start asking yourself like, hey, how did we get here so fast.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this happened to us this week, we were just going to go on a morning walk and take our dogs.
[SPEAKER_00]: Something fun, quality time together, and I asked AJ, hey, did you put the dog collars on?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I said, no, I was outside cleaning the pool.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then suddenly, five seconds later, we're both triggered standing in the hallway pissed off.
[SPEAKER_00]: All of a sudden, I know that I'm sitting there like this isn't about the dog collars.
[SPEAKER_00]: We just looked at each other, and we just knew something else was going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what it led us to was this question is, is it possible for your partner's trigger to eventually become your trigger to?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because if it can, it can explain my some of the most trivial, smallest moments can turn into some of the biggest arguments.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's dive in.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hello all and welcome to the Relationship Innovation Podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am Tara Kerwin and my name is E.J.
[SPEAKER_01]: Kerwin and it all started with a innocent walk at six in the morning to the dog park.
[SPEAKER_00]: Darn dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: We, I mean we, so.
[SPEAKER_01]: We love our mornings, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Our mornings are our time where we check in with one another.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wake up a little early, we do some journaling, like when we get our days off to a great start with a great morning, it is it's awesome.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, you know, because it's the summertime right now, and the kids are in school, we actually have more times to go on morning walks and take the dogs.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like really, it's fun, because we never get to do that during the school season.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so this is a stage where we know we're taking the dogs to the park, we got our little routine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm standing, we have a pretty long hallway.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm standing at one end of the hallway, terror standing at the other end of the hallway, and terror says,
[SPEAKER_00]: I literally said, and I think I said it this way, hey, you did you put the dogs, the colors on the dogs for the park?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and I literally said it this way, I think.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I was outside cleaning the pool, because the kids had been there like the night before, and they always leave a kind of trash.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm like, no, I was outside cleaning the pool, and then which is now how I heard it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not how hurt she heard it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you didn't hear how I said it?
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then when I say that, what happens?
[SPEAKER_00]: So internally, you're like, what I said to you, I got.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was just like, yeah, just above the surface.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I got snappy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, I was like, why are you getting defensive right now?
[SPEAKER_00]: I was just asking if you put the colors on the dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I said, like, I'm not being defensive.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was just telling you, I was outside doing that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why I didn't get there yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you were like, basically, something like, this is not going to be a heavy morning.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I did.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, I just, it happened so quickly, like so quickly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I went outside.
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember like, I don't even know if I said it underneath my breath or loud enough for you here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, no, no, no, no, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am not taking this off.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I heard you say no, no, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just FYI, I would even test me off more.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, we love using our own.
[SPEAKER_00]: Triggers challenging moments because we have so many listeners.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd like to thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: You guys we we relate to like universal couples like that deal with these small things are each and I much better at managing it now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, because we're learning we're therapists.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have you know our podcast like but we take our own stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're like, oh my gosh, this is really this could be really helpful for couples listening to there because we understood what happened quickly and we literally within what 10 to 15 minutes we were okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: But we were okay with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think both of us were like, what just happened?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we were just like literally walking out the door.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is like a such a routine thing that we do.
[SPEAKER_01]: And suddenly like we are on the verge of like,
[SPEAKER_01]: dipping into a dynamic that's really problematic for us and can and can screw up, like we said, like our mornings, we love our mornings together.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we want to begin with like how, how did we get here so fast?
[SPEAKER_01]: And in order to do that, we have to sort of dive into the vibe that we want couples to have together, which is curiosity about what just happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know internally, I went there first, like what's going on?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I know what this reminds me of, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I knew that I didn't want it to like ruin our morning.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, so I was getting curious first with myself, because I didn't want to be reactive, but I was still kind of angry at you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it took me a little bit of time to like soften for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and one of the things for me was like, I honestly get confused in that moment,
[SPEAKER_01]: was I being defensive or was I just like saying no I was outside getting you know it's like it's like I get I get really confused and what we're beginning to learn is we're sort of asking the wrong questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I guess like your question you're asking is, is eating defensive, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what do we want the question to be instead in that moment?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like what's happening inside of him?
[SPEAKER_00]: And me, because I'm sensing something like defensiveness.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I don't know for sure, because I'm not in your body.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and and then here's where we get and we're going to define this like throughout this episode is like what we discovered is this is our trigger trap, this is a situation where
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a trigger.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am defensive, like I feel like not just with terror but in many situations, like I feel like I have to be defending myself that I'm on trial, that I'm always being sort of observed and always being like judged.
[SPEAKER_01]: It comes definitely out of like some tough vibes
[SPEAKER_01]: and so that's been a trigger that I've been working on for a very long time and the terror was as been instrumental in helping me address.
[SPEAKER_01]: But because it's been such a constant trigger for me, it is now anything that even smells remotely like defensiveness is a trigger for terror.
[SPEAKER_00]: The transvert trigger E.
[SPEAKER_01]: My trigger has transferred over to Tara.
[SPEAKER_00]: Your trigger is now my trigger.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the most dangerous thing and I think this is where people out there where you're gonna really relate to this is the worst moments in a relationship are when both people are being fed.
[SPEAKER_01]: triggered simultaneous.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it's terrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the trigger transfer is the worst because it's like instantaneous, like I may have some trigger that hits that remote place where I'm still working on about being defensive and the moment that happens Terrors instantly triggered at the same time and then what's happening in that moment is both of our nervous systems take over instantaneously.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep, and it brings back all that history, history repeats itself, because I remember thinking, like, oh my gosh, am I going to have to like not ask him now if he did something because now, I'm just going to, like, I used to have that feeling of like, I'm just can't ask each anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm just going to have to be silenced.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I, you know me, like my triggers, I can't be silenced.
[SPEAKER_00]: I never got to have a voice when I was little.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, like, my nervous system goes into the history of all of the pain that you and I have been through together around this, instead of, like, in that moment being like, oh, this is happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: It just immediately reacts to history.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this goes back to episodes ago, so if you haven't heard it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's an episode all about when we, when we think we're discussing arguing about a situation, but it really is our nervous systems being triggered at the same time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because what my nervous system is saying is, please don't think I'm failing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Please don't think that I drop the ball.
[SPEAKER_01]: Terrorism nervous system is saying,
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't feel even safe to ask a question.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I'm really scared and I'm hyper-vigilant.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And both of us, I think, are like, we don't feel understood in that moment, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because in that moment, in that hallway,
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm literally like I'm confused.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, I don't know am I defensive am I not defensive like then then if I'm not careful I go into this like problem solving thing of like what do I say when she asks me something and I haven't done it Like what is the safe thing to say can I only say no I have not done it yet
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, and then you.
[SPEAKER_00]: My whole thing was so if you know me and I think if you have listened to a lot of a podcast, I have like a lot of anxiety and a lot of stuff in my head all of the time whether it's with you, whether it's with the kids, it's like that constant like, oh my gosh, did they brush the teeth?
[SPEAKER_00]: Did we make the lunches?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, are there dog collars on?
[SPEAKER_00]: Did the pool get cleaned?
[SPEAKER_00]: can feel overwhelming to many people.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm like, wow, was it my anxiety that just took over?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I'm asking Egypt to do all of these things and it feels like it's never enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I just start asking myself was it my anxiety that possibly could lead to you feeling like, no, I didn't put on the dog collars.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was just cleaning the pool.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think here's another key piece of insight for you out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: You want to ask yourself, so have we stopped responding to one another to what's actually happening in the moment or are we predicting what the other person's intent is, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because my, if I'm just,
[SPEAKER_01]: Honestly responding to, hey, did you put the dog collars on and I'm like, no, I was outside, you know, cleaning the pool, then I can feel good about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if I'm predicting that she's judging me,
[SPEAKER_01]: and she thinks that I should have already had the callers on, then that's my central nervous system.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's not about me crafting the perfect response.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not going to trigger terror.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's that I'm actually responding, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And for me, right, is that my nervous system is like, oh, my gosh, I'm in this hypervigilant place.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like I don't have a voice or I can't ask anything versus like the prediction that like, wow, if I ask EJ that's he's immediately going to get,
[SPEAKER_00]: defensive or shut down or overwhelmed by all of my requests, which is, can I just say, even to this day, even after all of the work we've done, EJ, I still get really nervous to ask you about, like, even this morning, I'm like, oh, I really like we're getting a new mattress, and I really want to like,
[SPEAKER_01]: put like wood on like one of our walls before the mattress comes because mattress is heavy and I'm like I can't ask EJ that like I'm not even going to say anything and then I'm like why is this is exactly this this is the trigger transfer and it's also what we're about to talk about which is anticipatory anxiety yeah you brought us right into anticipatory anxiety which is we start reacting to what we think might happen yes
[SPEAKER_01]: versus just reacting to what is happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because you think the minute that, and this is a great example of us like redoing the room before the bed comes, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because you're thinking, oh, if I ask him that, he's gonna get stressed, it's not gonna feel safe, but I also won't get my needs met.
[SPEAKER_01]: It hasn't happened yet, but you're already anxious about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: like I even felt it I'm already anxious because I think okay if I tell her honestly what I'm thinking she's gonna feel shut down and get mad at me because what I'm thinking is the mattress comes next Saturday I'm coaching Joe's basketball
[SPEAKER_01]: all weekend.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: The project that you think will take four hours is going to take two and a half to three days.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so both of us, you're afraid to ask it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm afraid to give you an honest answer.
[SPEAKER_01]: What that gets in the way of is like, that's a important conversation to have, hey, I'd really like to get that thing done, we're getting this new bed.
[SPEAKER_01]: How do we do it as soon as possible?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because it's going to look beautiful.
[SPEAKER_01]: You showed me, I really think I can pull it off like I can make that happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that's, I guess we can like do that like right now since we're just
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, this is a role model.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was not having anticipation anxiety and we're not doing a trigger transfer.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or I can be vulnerable.
[SPEAKER_00]: So here we're going to model in the moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is exciting yet a little.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a little nervous.
[SPEAKER_00]: DJ, it would mean a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm nervous to ask you this because of just my nervous system and how like history has repeated itself multiple times.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I know what we're both working in our staff.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you're my safe person.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to feel safe to ask any request, whatever it is, that's what I'm going to start with.
[SPEAKER_01]: Great.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would love for the wall.
[SPEAKER_00]: To be done before the mattress comes in, I also know we have a really busy schedule happening this weekend.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that the mattress comes next Saturday.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I feel like even if we had a plan for it, if it doesn't get done by next Saturday, even if we had a plan that would make me feel really excited and important.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I think you nailed it.
[SPEAKER_01]: That could totally hear it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, because I was the first thing I want to do is I want to evaluate it.
[SPEAKER_00]: We just wait.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have this on record that I just nailed it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You did.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have it on video tape and audio.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, the first thing I want to say is like, when you sent me that picture of the thing you want to do on that wall for your bed, I was like, that looks awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know.
[SPEAKER_01]: That looks so cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, oh, I can do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I think I can pull that off.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a little bit of a stretch on my, because I think like there's some woodcutting and stuff you don't see that has to be done, but I'm like, I can do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: and I'm excited by it so I'm stoked like I want to I want to do that for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: I definitely I think we can't pull it off by next Saturday.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I agree, like that was, I thought the exact same thing you did.
[SPEAKER_01]: If this weekend we sit down, we make a material list.
[SPEAKER_01]: We sort of timeline it out, we look for which weekend we can do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We even talk about how will we keep our new bed safe from the mess, because I think you're also going to want to paint the rest of the elements.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's included in the project.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I think it's actually a pretty big project.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's like a, you know, two and a half three days.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think we should make the plan for it, schedule it this weekend, and we'll do it, because that's going to look amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: See, there we go.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is not, let me tell you people, like, that is not what normally happens, because now, I mean, here's the other part about this that really works about this conversation, is like, this conversation would normally happen,
[SPEAKER_01]: in our house, when a bunch of kids are running around and we're like cooking dinner or something like that, is like part of this is also like, we have the space for this conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's why one of the things we tell couples is we say, like you have to create like,
[SPEAKER_01]: individual time for you guys to check in and be together and talk about things every week.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like a half hour dedicated space for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But okay, I think we did a good job of not anticipating the other person's response.
[SPEAKER_00]: I did that this morning, so I'm good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think we avoided the trigger transfer, like neither of us.
[SPEAKER_01]: We were both aware of what our triggers are.
[SPEAKER_01]: My trigger, in that case, would be like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god, this is another responsibility and yours was, you told me you met, you talked about it earlier today or thought through it, like you don't want to be scared, you want to be able to have the conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think we did a great, a great job there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that was awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's going to make it also easier to just get something done because that's one of the things couple struggle with.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes these type of arguments, these type of trigger transfer moments, they keep us from just accomplishing shit.
[SPEAKER_01]: We got to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know?
[SPEAKER_00]: And while I love what you said here too because when we were talking about how we want to do this episode, we stopped responding to the present and start responding to prediction.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the invitation might this week for our couples is really questioning.
[SPEAKER_00]: Am I responding to my partner or to the story that my nervous system has already started writing?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because the nervous system, bam, just like that, it goes into that.
[SPEAKER_00]: fight, fight, freeze, fawn, history, this is happening again, this will never get better, I'm so sick of this, I have no voice, I'm constantly like whatever it is, and then you want to just shift it to presence like we just did.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, is it easier for us to be in presence right now because we're recording a podcast?
[SPEAKER_01]: And try to maybe delete have tripped and had the stot pod cast before.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's so it's like this.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's why creating that time for you guys, like 30 minutes an hour, you know, an hour at least a week, but even a few minutes during the day so that you can become more present with each other and you guys will have more of a chance of getting through.
[SPEAKER_00]: Whatever it is, together because you have that connection experience and being present with one another and talking about these things.
[SPEAKER_00]: We just usually only respond or talk about things when we're triggered and things are already or we don't and we just repeat it under the rug.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I want to just like come back to the key insight around trigger transfer that we don't want to respond to our partner based upon a assumption of what we think is happening, but we want to respond by what is actually happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, the invitation that we put out to you as you walk away from this podcast today is to ask yourself, am I responding to my partner?
[SPEAKER_01]: or to the story that my nervous system has already started telling me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that that's you guys' action point.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because healing begins when you notice that you're predicting and not being present.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what we want to be as we want to really be present for one another.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is when code word comes in beautifully to things.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because if you see yourself going into prediction, if you see yourself being triggered by the trigger, take that pause, use your code word, step away, self-reflect, then come back with an admission and opening about yourself, not an adjudgment or assumption about the other person.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I guess the question we ask ourselves
[SPEAKER_01]: we have triggers for us.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we do.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we also just want to ask you if you are enjoying our episodes, if you're getting something out of it that's really helping your relationship, if you could just do us the favor of subscribing, of giving us a rating, of sharing our show with somebody else, like that would be that means a lot to us.
[SPEAKER_01]: And really what it's doing is it's helping us fulfill our mission, which is to help couples become their best selves together.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we also love hearing from you, or if you have any ideas around different podcast topics ideas, because something happening in your relationship, please email us at podcast at relationship renovation.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: We love receiving those emails, they mean the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for listening.
[SPEAKER_00]: Take care of yourselves.
[SPEAKER_00]: Take care of each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: Bye-bye.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just singin' on the train, me and you listening to the rain Me and you, we are the same, me and you