[SPEAKER_03]: Survivor Specialist John and McKenna are back.
[SPEAKER_03]: And as always with the series, we are joined by Kyle of the matcha, no not tagless matcha, the matcha.
[SPEAKER_03]: And today we have a very special guest.
[SPEAKER_03]: It is Alex Trees.
[SPEAKER_03]: You've seen him on the podcast a few times here and there, covering for either John and I on the rewind.
[SPEAKER_03]: He also might look familiar because he podcasted a lot over on reality after show.
[SPEAKER_03]: know their name anymore, they've changed so many times, covering the challenge, but he's also longtime patron over here at the specialist, so we're like, you know what, let's bring it on, take you out of your podcast, hiatus, and talk about some first shares.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm very excited for this because like honestly, because of my entry point to survivor,
[SPEAKER_02]: These are essentially five of the first seven seasons I've ever watched live.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's wild.
[SPEAKER_02]: Perfect.
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: So a great time for me to come in.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: So this week, we are talking ghost island, David versus Goliath, edge of extinction, island of the idols and winners at war.
[SPEAKER_03]: So let's get into it with ghost island.
[SPEAKER_03]: The man, the mythologian, Chris Noble, is our first-year, and I mean, we hit it off with a bang here with our first one to talk about today.
[SPEAKER_03]: It is the Domverse Chris Show, the entire way through and through this episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: He is very prominent.
[SPEAKER_03]: He is the opposition to Dom and Wendell,
[SPEAKER_03]: It's almost a shame that he's the first juror because he is so prevalent throughout the season, but it makes for a beautiful sendoff here in his vote out episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: So Alex, talk about your thoughts on Chris.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a sort of like that iconic style of the merge boot that like I feel like in the past you became more known of it's like They became a big deal because they became the the lead person on a jury like obviously the format's different in these seasons, but even in this season like what we'll get to it later.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, I think he does actually a very good job in his role afterwards as a player.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I loved him.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's everything you wanted in like a chaos agent.
[SPEAKER_02]: You get some drama, like the guy some challenge coded.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you're giving me him versus Dom.
[SPEAKER_02]: Dom ends up on the challenge.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like this was his practice here.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, Chris is just like authentically him for better or worse.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I sort of loved the main character energy he provided.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you sort of get this essence
[SPEAKER_02]: Then producers knew that, too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Chris Noble is one of my favorite characters of all time in this episode is really like his episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and I agree, I love the main character energy that he brings and I think we got it for just the right amount of time here.
[SPEAKER_00]: But what I like about Chris is that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It might sound weird to say, but he's kind of a gamer, like he respects the game, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: He's a goof in the game, but like he goes against Dom the whole time, but then he votes for Dom at the end.
[SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't hold a grudge.
[SPEAKER_00]: He says good game, and he's one of Dom's biggest champions on the jury, and it reflects in the vote count, which we'll probably talk about at some point, but I think that Chris is really important here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I agree, Kyle, one of the most important things about Chris Noble, just completely in the entire Pantheos of Ghost Island in general is, he kind of represents something we don't normally see in a survivor season.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is a direct opposition to our antagonists.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he is a foil to the protagonist that we have for the season.
[SPEAKER_01]: I might have said antagonists.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a protagonist.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, you said it right, you know what Dom might be considered an antagonist.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyways, point being in this game.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have the way the season's frame, we do have two major focal points of the season in Dom and other.
[SPEAKER_01]: The entire season is framed around that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Both of you because of how the season ends with the typo, it really is trying to frame it in a way where you think either of these two soon win the season.
[SPEAKER_01]: But what Chris Noble presents is the great obstacle these two need to get over in order to take control of the season that they do in the post-mort.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what we really get from him is this strange
[SPEAKER_01]: place where he almost, despite the fact that he's in opposition, he doesn't come off as a villain, necessarily.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's not, he's not like your prototypical villain.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess is what I'm trying to say, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like he's not like the big bad from like a fantasy movie or something like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like this isn't your siren, this isn't your, like, Emperor Palpatia, anything like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is more of a,
[SPEAKER_01]: It's more like if we're looking at a sports movie, he's that guy from the rival team who you know is really antagonistic and then like turns over and helps out the team at the end.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's set up from what he crashed.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's to go with some of the patron content.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's Flash Thompson, inspired man.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, kind of, I don't think he's like like maybe modern flash Thompson where it's like, it's a little more bravado.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not like that's necessarily meant to be purely purely antagonistic, but what you do does great on others, including the people that are more focal to the story.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think like flash Thompson feels a little too friendly with the
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I can't even think off the top of my head what I'm trying to say right now because I went down like a bably rabbit and I mean rabbit hole recently that's all I can think it's not a revolution always you're talking about here we're all we got a regroups for vibrant or what this is exactly what it is though is like Chris Novel plays this role in the season and that is unlike anything we really see in any
[SPEAKER_01]: first year we talked about so far.
[SPEAKER_01]: He has he is the pinnacle of obstacle for our protagonist of the season.
[SPEAKER_01]: The two people we are primarily following throughout the entire thing and his decision should end up being the focal point of the season.
[SPEAKER_01]: In the fact that it doesn't, he come that is so fascinating.
[SPEAKER_03]: And with Chris, I believe Domin Wendell, when he wasn't supposed to be that first juror, and Chris kind of threw that conversation to the wayside thinking that they were trying to do him, which valid because they haven't worked together the entire season, but at the same time,
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, that group was all about naviti strong, naviti strong, and at least for the merge vote, I'd believe that even if I wasn't vote working with them the entire time and then I would make my turn because then I'm not.
[SPEAKER_03]: going to be that person that gets hit first because if I'm Chris, I know I'm up on the chopping block if I, you know, throw a plan that's, you know, a dom, getting dom or window out or, you know, lead everybody in the entire camp to the well to go talk about the plan.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, because I tried playing myself in this shoes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I like I've rewatched all the
[SPEAKER_02]: from Chris's perspective.
[SPEAKER_02]: One, I don't think you need, I understand why they wanted to have Dom in the conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think you needed Dom there.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it was just Wendell and Chris, I think Chris potentially can be more receptive to it, but because he's already has his walls up against,
[SPEAKER_02]: Dom so hard that no matter what Dom says, no matter how you guys, the little bit of inflection in his voice will make Chris go, he's trying to play me.
[SPEAKER_02]: It does not matter here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it doesn't even matter if they actually do go for living here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Chris could be thinking, okay, we go for living and then they're just going to go for me next and I just lost someone that I could have used to get them out.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like this is where like when Dom's saying like he's this fascinating character is like because he gives all the impressions
[SPEAKER_02]: of like someone who's never seen the show before, but also is giving all the energy of wanting to have control and play the game, not just I am here to enjoy the ride.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's where like even when you have the power brokers come together, he's like, this is all nice and all, but I want to be the head-on-chow.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I don't want to play with you guys.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to be better than you guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he wants all the glory.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we see that in his trip to Ghost Island when he gets the JT idol risks it.
[SPEAKER_00]: He wins one and then loses the second time, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So, and then it's only good for two tribals.
[SPEAKER_00]: He knows his name is coming up at this tribal and then doesn't play it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, it's like he is going for it all.
[SPEAKER_00]: right he's not planned to work with Dom and Wendell one vote or two votes right he he's looking to win the game or lose the game right here.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah yeah and him you know trying to navigate some of this and where I think it's interesting that he votes for Dom and you know
[SPEAKER_03]: plays in a way that, you know, you were talking about Alex of like,
[SPEAKER_03]: Is he a recruit or does he want to be here because I think if it was a recruit, they're voting for Wendell here, where even though Like dominant is his direct opposition and Wendell's just the guy going along with them in Chris's head.
[SPEAKER_03]: He still gives Dom the nod, even though Dom was, you know, that one of those big forces of let's get out Chris and Wendell is more of the, hey, what if we keep him in a little bit longer and
[SPEAKER_03]: kind of vouching a bit more for Chris and he still gives that nod to Dom because, you know, Dom is that force for him.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's great to have in a first-year where they can really reflect and be like, you know what?
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, this guy got me.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was trying to get him and he did it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's not always the case with our first-yearers.
[SPEAKER_03]: for me, Chris Double, better.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think really interesting things to take into consideration when it comes to Chris Double is
[SPEAKER_01]: Like everything you just saying, like Christmas is a recruit, like we, we know that for a group is a recruit and because of that I think why he leans more dominant situation again and kind of goes back to what we've been talking about a lot in the series of the jury wants to vote for their proxy and the finalists right and despite the fact that Dom was his direct opposition the reason these two clash so much is because of how similar they get right there are two out of the gods vying for control of this game.
[SPEAKER_01]: Dom just had the better partner, but she mean a actual partner to her class that helped propel him through there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think was so fascinating about the fact that this jury splits exactly halfway through it, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: The first five years end up voting.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is five, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Five.
[SPEAKER_01]: First five.
[SPEAKER_01]: First five jurors, though, for Dom, the last five over Wendell, forcing Laurel to cast this time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Go.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think this really is more indicative of what we see from Dom, right, like because we know for a fact, the way that Dom treated Sebastian on his way out of the game really sourdough a lot of the jury.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is one of those things where the people at this is going to sound a little crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go back to Thailand for a minute.
[SPEAKER_01]: Always be honest, it's very interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's very similar to what we see in Thailand where the first half of the jury votes for clay and the second half votes for Ryan.
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the messages with how grading someone can be the longer you spend with them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And while Chris is there seeing this proxy of himself in Wendell and really,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, advocating and likely talking to these first five juries, jurors in Libby and Desiree and Jenna and Michael about he all a dom so impressive.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's this weird like alpha male thing where they're in total conflict, but they all like love each other a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's weird.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just like jockey bro culture, essentially.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's not a surprise that he would go this way.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the longer these people spend time with these people, the more that to the personality, really great amount of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's why we end up seeing this split in this.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's something else here that we're going to see like from some of the firstures later on here, where there's this emphasis of like when you're the firstures asking like the finalists of,
[SPEAKER_02]: don't bullshit us like we need authentic answers and there's a degree here where I'm watching Chris like actually genuinely whined to hear both of them like become alpha in a sense and when I think he loses when he's already leaning down I think he loses when it'll nicks to pitch that you know if you would just like agreed with us you would've been sitting right here with us and he's like none
[SPEAKER_02]: That wasn't going to happen because I know I wasn't going to let that happen.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's like, it further puts himself in that Dom spot because Dom's just being, I think he sees like you said, John, like Dom's being everything that he would have wanted to be.
[SPEAKER_02]: If he was like vinyl tribal capital, be well, be in like low in your face a valley, but like being authentic.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that was surprisingly something that was very big for Chris in this season was like, he wasn't really that much of a bullshitter.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, he sort of just kept it how it is.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was like, if I don't like you, you'll know I don't like you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I will most likely vote for you to go home.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you get me, you get me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I was going to talk about, you know, his jump in for Final Tribal Council because obviously like in the with this new jury format, um, it's you have the outward outplay at last, segments and either a few of these fursures don't speak or they have the, we're all still open
[SPEAKER_03]: You got to tell me who the real mastermind is and someone bury the other person so we aren't splitting both because he's trying to get to the bottom of this game so this tie doesn't happen.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I mean, it's still inevitably does, but yeah, anything else on Chris guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I kind of wanted to dissect this wording that Chris has for this question though, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it again does have this like aggressive alcohol mail major to it, where it doesn't sound like he wants one of them to differentiate themselves from each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: He wants them to stop being so friendly with each other.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: is the problem, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, and I think that is one of the things that really it propels Wendell to his wing here is the fact that he is a friendly person, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it is his social game that ends up getting him morals vote in the end, they're deciding vote in the in the tie.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think this is almost like a detrimental question to Dom, because it would have turned more people off of Dom if he had just like, that's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's very, I know here.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, so let's pivot over to David versus Goliath.
[SPEAKER_03]: We have Elizabeth as our first juror.
[SPEAKER_03]: Elizabeth had been rubbing a few people the wrong way in the pre-merge, a few people weren't getting along with her.
[SPEAKER_03]: And she became just the consensus vote that the David's were willing to vote out and the Goliath were only voting for a David.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so the David's kind of just offered up Elizabeth because Elizabeth wasn't really in any of their inner workings.
[SPEAKER_03]: So they were kind of just on that back foot and we're just like, all right, we're okay with Elizabeth and then let's kind of regroup here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it sort of goes with the season and you really see it with the game plans like the game continues to go on.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like all these people are very willing to with that and it's the at least in the short term.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the ones who choose like to be so definitively like I am only in this box.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I will not go outside of this box to play with anyone else or to want to end up like ultimately suffering.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's like
[SPEAKER_02]: because Elizabeth, you even hearing her final words, it's just like, I want David to win.
[SPEAKER_02]: I only want work with David.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll pull a glide over just for the sake of having to David start to gain the numbers essentially.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, there's no reflexive play here of
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to expand and work with both sides so that not only can I be safe now because my name's out, but I can be safe in future rounds.
[SPEAKER_02]: There wasn't a lot of like forward thinking there where you see other people making moves, making deals during this time period where they're allowing the lizard to go because they have more important things to do than just focus on, oh, we gotta keep a David, oh, we gotta keep a quiet.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this is the most like no man's land of all the merge votes here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like Elizabeth was really just on her own, and like she says in her,
[SPEAKER_00]: in her jury question or her jury sentence cut the crap right like she is not a bullshitter and I think that that's a that's a tone that she sets here because on her way out she has you know her whole thing with Angelina
[SPEAKER_00]: And Angelina is trying to do jury management and like, you know, Angelina is full of shit.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Nick is not really like that, you know, he plays, you know, he he lies in the game and can be manipulative, but like he's not that kind of person.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think Elizabeth was looking for that type of person to vote for.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's that's a really important tone to set or have a tone set
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I'm going to go off for a minute, so if you want to like jump in first feel free to Here this I don't have like much more to say on Elizabeth, but she, you know, like I was saying is that no man's land
[SPEAKER_03]: kind of just character here.
[SPEAKER_03]: And there was a potential for Christian to go out if they were trying to get that big move going, but it was really only Angelina pushing that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And um...
[SPEAKER_03]: I just want to commend Elizabeth for her drive determination and love for the game because that was very apparent throughout this entire episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: She wasn't going to go down without a fight and she went out kicking and screaming especially in that tribal council.
[SPEAKER_03]: And yes,
[SPEAKER_03]: she did want a David to win so that kind of taints her view as a first juror for me.
[SPEAKER_03]: If she, you know, didn't say that in her final words, I'd give her more along the lines of a better first juror, but I think she was only going in voting for a David.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is where I'm going to have a sub-block to about like, viewing for a season.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have a couple of controversial seasons coming up.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's an edge of extinction, and put it as a war, just because of like, the formatting of this season.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't like versus seasons.
[SPEAKER_01]: Specifically because they really,
[SPEAKER_01]: read a chart, they gave, put in these notions of people working against each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when we look at these seasons, you generally see people succeed when they can get over those type of titles and work together with people.
[SPEAKER_01]: You look at, um,
[SPEAKER_01]: somewhat thing like co-wrong, which has a law of machine and mashing of those groups, but you still have like the brains on the outside for them, which happened that time of season.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or like someone, one of the three groups tend to be shifting to the outside of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of those versus gen X, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we had that one of those versus gen X divide a kind of breaks down a bit, but it's still like readers had every once in a while, but it's not as bad as David versus his life.
[SPEAKER_01]: David versus the life was so
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just a charged subject, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because of the way that storytelling works.
[SPEAKER_01]: Storytelling, you always want for the most part, people like rooting for an underdog.
[SPEAKER_01]: They like rooting for the David in any situation, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: That end, and this season itself,
[SPEAKER_01]: Perfectly puts them into a situation where I David should win.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the theme wants you to vote for a David.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then the way the season plays out, makes the David even more suitable.
[SPEAKER_01]: We go into the merge.
[SPEAKER_01]: They've already been mixing and matching.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've seen one of the guys come over to the David's with Alex flipping over and everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: However, you get to the merge.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's the split between the lives and David's at the merge?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's seven Goliaths and six Davids.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Davids are automatically on the outs, because the Goliaths have all come back together.
[SPEAKER_01]: The only logical thing for the Davids to do in this situation is to agree with the Goliaths and voter Elizabeth out here.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, we get like the tools and everything I come, all the advantages that happen, that kind of fall into the David's laps, because they were working hard and getting them, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, I'm not saying they were given to that intentionally, happened to be the story that falls out that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then, look at this final tribal council.
[SPEAKER_01]: You then have a final tribal council where you have one David and two Goliaths,
[SPEAKER_01]: and all of a sudden that advantage that Goliath had at the merge is flipped and the David's now have the majority on that jury.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then, I mean, we are all, you are all rooting for the David and
[SPEAKER_03]: It does, it does hurt this season, I guess, in a vote perspective, because how did a David make get that get that far, but at the same time, those three were all on Japan together, so like there is an alliance that actually happened, but it just happened to be with Tugolius, which very much played out in Nick's favor to be able to be like, hey, other David.
[SPEAKER_03]: I got here somehow and to get to pull in some of their votes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and let's say you even had it, where it was like two dated and a Goliath there, you run this issue with this theme of how they want to carry themselves.
[SPEAKER_02]: Davids are going to want to vote for a David.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the heroes effect, the heroes for civilians, like the hero wants to vote for the person who's most a hero.
[SPEAKER_02]: The villains don't care about being a villain and being identified as a villain and voting for the person who most reflects the villain.
[SPEAKER_02]: The same thing goes with a lie.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, true, I don't think there's a world where John or Dan vote for any of the Goliaths if they go out being betrayed by the Goliaths.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, they're not gonna go like, oh, I want to have the most Goliath person when, because it reflects me, they're going to be no, they're gonna be better, and they're gonna be,
[SPEAKER_02]: at you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to vote for Nick because I'm giving him the credit for the move that most likely other people also did, but I'm giving him the credit for it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, I think it goes into the theme of the season though, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because like, I think a guy commends that type of gameplay, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I think like naturally the term Goliath will respect someone who forces themselves into a game and pushes things out.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think it is like, like you said, again, it's like, there's these three-row-inch many together.
[SPEAKER_01]: Clearly, there's an alliance.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's very up, but the alliance that crossed these, um,
[SPEAKER_01]: these pre-defined titles, given to them at the beginning of the game, is the one that's able to work the best throughout the season.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there is a reason for that, but I think like Goliath's are going to prop that up where David's are kind of more because it's the underdog thing and just like the way society goes, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: David's are more likely to wire around each other and lift each other up, just like from a stereotypical standpoint.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and we were talking about this a bit more with the fans versus favorite seasons of like maybe we do want a favorite actually as the first juror and not a fan because they'll be able to control my jury a bit more and I think that's the same thing with Nick was he thinking about that at the time of booting Elizabeth, no, probably not, but as it gets going.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I have a David as my first juror, that's that can only help me as if I had a Goliath, it might, you know, there might be a little bit more of that tumultuous, you know, maybe more Hasselj jury depending on who is that Goliath that gets, you know, put in that first juror's spot.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I feel like having Elizabeth, even though she was
[SPEAKER_03]: you know, one of the more vocal boisterous davids that still helps, you know, Nick out in the in the long run of having her as the first year.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would have been curious to see if one of these other galious had made it to the end, if like Cara or Allison had made it to the end and seeing what their what their pitch was like and say like just because I'm a galith doesn't mean that like, you know, I mean, phase hardships in this game or like this and that or if it was an all
[SPEAKER_00]: final three.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would be very interested to see how the David's on the jury would have approached voting for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And and sometimes it's just has to do with like we're talking about the story, the way things play out because we saw a contender get demolished by a champion in a final travel council.
[SPEAKER_00]: and Australian survivor.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think it just has to do with like the group, like if Carl had made it to the end, is Carl commanding this type of respects the wrong work, because of course, but like, you know, what his game be looked at as that great, I think sometimes it just depends on who that person is and things just fell exactly this right way for Nick.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and into your
[SPEAKER_03]: But I would also say the same thing of like I think she's along the lines of more bootleans more bitter than necessarily better even though it works out for Nick.
[SPEAKER_02]: But sort of I give it credit to being like, I have this thing where it's like, there's a justified ability of bitterness.
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, I would not have been surprised.
[SPEAKER_02]: If Chris was a Chris Noble was bitter at dumb, and so he voted for Wendell, because the actions within the game matter.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Elizabeth leaves with
[SPEAKER_02]: And Angelia, maybe trying to be genuine, Elizabeth doesn't take it as genuine, it's sort of like this is sort of disrespectful that like you're telling me to my face right before we go like thank you for letting me know I'm leaving but like oh you're not going to.
[SPEAKER_02]: like not vote for me, like you're gonna vote me out, even though you're sad that you're voting me out, like cool, thanks.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not gonna vote for you ever.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then there's the, you know, there's the gray area that people have with Mike on like how much of a factor was his, what he is known to be outside and how much he has outside, influencing your vote.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because we do get three people voting for him to galize and then we have Christian vote for Mike.
[SPEAKER_02]: because he Christian decides that he thinks Mike has the most impressive game.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you have all these people, I can see a list of things on who's like, I will never vote for Mike because I want to get on who needs the money.
[SPEAKER_02]: Not even so much as the title of survivors, so you're going to give it to the David.
[SPEAKER_01]: even though he's a lawyer, but yeah, and then during I mean, I actually think you, you, you, uh, kind of hit the nail on the head of like something that like kind of sucks with this season.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, it is so arbitrary because Nick is a lawyer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is a very successful fund.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, Nick, yeah, this is a David in the sense of like,
[SPEAKER_03]: And then if you go to final four, care is a very successful real estate agent.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we have a then then a doctor.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a doctor.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, let's redo this season.
[SPEAKER_02]: Get David to be the David.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like we have three dreams on this season, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: But they didn't really didn't just like through it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, people gave game changes a flag.
[SPEAKER_01]: for like title.
[SPEAKER_01]: But data is the only reason you're not giving data versus a guy like the Flacket deserves or this feeling is because you like the season.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, Christian is a successful professor at a university.
[SPEAKER_02]: for robotics that they're like, you're a David because you win her silly t-shirts.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was really the most David of the David.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't get hit really there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't get hit there.
[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't get hit there.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't get hit there.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't get
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, just a lot of seeing that again in the merge of the sew.
[SPEAKER_03]: She didn't have much to do in Final Tribal Council either.
[SPEAKER_03]: She just did the, you know, congrats were undecided and cut the crap and be authentic.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, um, she kind of has a nothing burger FTC too.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, before we move on, just sharing in question during this time period of survivor.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, this production point of gun at them, like we are undecided.
[SPEAKER_02]: Raise your hand if you're undecided.
[SPEAKER_02]: Every single person raises their hand.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_02]: We know that's not the best.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the worst.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the worst.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the worst.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, but that doesn't work.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm more impressed.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm more impressed if someone says, I came with my mind decided and you changed it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't disagree with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that being like, oh, we're up in the air.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm really voting for Nick and not voting for these two at all, but I'm so up in the air about this.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just that part of me, I always lose.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know it's a TV thing, but I'm like, you can miss me with this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Tell me the truth.
[SPEAKER_02]: You tell me the truth.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're telling them to tell the truth.
[SPEAKER_02]: Tell me the truth.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, we are moving on to edge of extinction.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, Riem is our first sure.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was weird to watch two premieres as our first year episodes with Riem and then in a little bit amber, but.
[SPEAKER_03]: Man, um, I love edge of extinction.
[SPEAKER_03]: And Riem defines the bitter category granted.
[SPEAKER_03]: She has nobody else to vote for, really.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like Chris, who is she going to vote for in that final three?
[SPEAKER_03]: She never met anybody.
[SPEAKER_03]: So obviously she's going Chris.
[SPEAKER_03]: But she,
[SPEAKER_03]: As everybody joins the edge, she interrogates them.
[SPEAKER_03]: She is like, why did you vote for me?
[SPEAKER_03]: And this place is going to suck, just wait.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, she is the definition of bitter and kind of cramogene.
[SPEAKER_03]: But also, we see in this episode, she can be that mother endearing wants to help out.
[SPEAKER_03]: So a remas just a paradox.
[SPEAKER_03]: of a first-year here because while, you know, she'll take no shit, she'll still listen to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's one of the few reasons I like the edge, and few is putting it very nicely.
[SPEAKER_02]: But like, I didn't even make a wash for you right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: You look, look, I'm not, I'm not putting it on trial.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I can have my opinion that I don't like the twist.
[SPEAKER_02]: However, with the twist being a thing in this season, I remember watching this live.
[SPEAKER_02]: I actually was so thankful that this was a thing that existed because so many times you have these people who I think are iconic, and iconic first food.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they give her the edit of one and I love it.
[SPEAKER_02]: But there's all of this time where I wish I could see more from these people.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is where the edge is good.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you get to have the opportunity to see these people get more fleshed out.
[SPEAKER_02]: And like, while yes, we continue to see room just be bitter and depressed, honestly, for the remainder of her days on the edge.
[SPEAKER_02]: In a weird way, I'm thankful for it because it louder to be here and get like a full experience.
[SPEAKER_02]: Even though she never meets two of the final three ever.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: In this game.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Reem is the perfect person to be at edge of extinction first because like even when Chris the person that she votes for gets there.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's like, oh, your kind isn't welcome here, dude, like it's it's so funny to watch that interaction and this is a
[SPEAKER_00]: I really don't know if she was happy to vote for Chris or not to be honest with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think she probably was because Chris, he really uses his time on edge of extinction wisely.
[SPEAKER_00]: And to his benefit, should he come back into the game and it works for him here.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, it's so it's so odd for the first juror, the person setting the tone is someone who went to one trouble council didn't meet half the cast and really had no idea what was going on in the game on a day-to-day basis.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is this is the most unique situation to me of anything that we're going to talk about in this series.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm going to start off by saying, every day, Lee has one fan, or has no fans that I'm deaf, like I love reading, Rima is an incredible, incredible addition to the survivor fancy on.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think what she brings to this season,
[SPEAKER_01]: He's that bitterness.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to skip to it right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's Reem is bitter, but not in the same way that it's a bitter bitter juror is.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Reem is bitter throughout the entire game.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we see her go through 36 days of being bitter as she gets to the end of the game to finally cast it over the winner of the season.
[SPEAKER_01]: But what she does.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you said, Kyle, she is the perfect first group of this season because she, honestly, I'm upon rewatching the premiere for Edge of Extension.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did a season rewatch quite recently.
[SPEAKER_01]: The dream doesn't, like, even the premiere is not ring we see for the rest of the season.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, even the premier is this like very motherly character just trying to take care of everyone, but then they vote her out and like, like switch flips.
[SPEAKER_01]: Except she's still like just very endearing characters around there really struggling with the fact that she's been voted out.
[SPEAKER_01]: And why I think she's so important and why ultimately like she votes for Chris.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, like she probably got close to Chris on that long time that they spent together in the game, but also.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is one of those things where both the aim of edge of extinction, someone from the edge of extinction has to be able to win and the jury has to be able to consider someone from edge of extinction to be able to win.
[SPEAKER_01]: Otherwise, there's no point in someone coming back from the edge of extinction.
[SPEAKER_01]: And because of that, what I think Green really does see is Chris coming back into the game and playing this part of the game.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, he had a blueprint to finish the game.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like what he had to do, the point of the matter is like he had to do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But what Chris really represents for Reen is justification for the suffering she went through for the 30 seconds he spent on the edge.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, her final words are no offense, but screw my tribe.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're mad that I put your freaking clothes on the beach to dry, whatever, and I don't want to cry because I'm still in the game, and I'm happy to be in the game, but it's wet and cold.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just got to stick it out ahead of freaking extinction.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, so she, like, just from those final words, you can tell she takes some people off and is better about it, but also is sensitive and endearing and it loves the game of survivor.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, um, and she's not the only bitter juror on this jury.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think like Eric Julia Ron Clark to a certain extent, like this is another story.
[SPEAKER_01]: Victoria.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, right, that story about it's crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this is another example where like the second half, not the second half of the jury, but people towards the end of the jury vote for one person and the beginning of the jury is voting for another person because the first six jurors.
[SPEAKER_00]: vote for Chris eight of the first nine jurors vote for Chris.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it is like that the people who spent more time on the edge of extinct are voting for that person like the person we talked about there they're proxy right the person that they see themselves in and then you know one like she didn't go to extinction like she
[SPEAKER_00]: the whole game.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she has no reason to be better, but when you're living on the island and you have to think about all these people who just voted you out, like, it does create a bitter environment.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so Rem was obviously like the most bitter, she, you know, was the loudest, but the environment definitely fosters a more bitter jury.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's reflected in a lot of these votes.
[SPEAKER_02]: It sort of like the issue with these casts or not these casts like the jury size because like in before you add edge extension where like in the theory everyone gets to be on the jury by playing the season.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're adds like you even see it in like 10 like we get a lot more 10 obotes like in the 30s because you just get into this point of group think where you end up being like we What the people at the beginning are allows is like I want this person to win in the adventure everyone else is just like
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I just don't care that much so I'll go with you or they don't want to be that one person who like, oh, I'm going to vote this other way and then becomes nine one zero and I was going to like your your dumb widened to vote for for Adam who clearly should win.
[SPEAKER_02]: I like that we get out of that in the new era, but like it's something that really comes up here where I'm like if you just cut this jury in half and you actually have just like a realistic jury like Chris still wins.
[SPEAKER_02]: based on the votes, but you have more back and forth here because it's less time that people are just sitting there, just doing over whatever happened in the game on day 13, on day 6, on day 18, instead it's a lot more close.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you have fresh feelings, you understand what's going on.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And she spent the most time with Chris and I don't think she even influenced the jury because she spent the most time with Chris because they also spent a lot of time with Chris.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then when that starts to flip over to Gavin is when those people are starting to spend more time with Gavin.
[SPEAKER_03]: than they would with Chris on edge of extinction, too.
[SPEAKER_03]: They see more of Gavin's gameplay and less of what Chris is doing on edge of extinction, especially the people who get voted out after Chris's back.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's really tough to
[SPEAKER_01]: really contextualize this, because in all honesty, someone coming back from the edge could have that left that bitterness against that person.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it is really impressive that Chris, he's able to pull us off.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, he has this strategic advantage, but because like we're dealing with the season with 14 of 14 were applicants for this season.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, and then we have four attorneys, but you're dealing with a lot of people who really respect me getting us or that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Who is the, um, Weeema's the only question mark.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not we're not even sure if she's a recruiter or not.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's just a question mark.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I think I think she's a fine.
[SPEAKER_03]: She had been getting some pride and for 20 years.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, so everybody, we're dealing with an entire cast that really respect the game.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, the thought of someone coming back into the game and winning could be considered sacrilege for a lot of these
[SPEAKER_01]: but they still not.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that goes down to Reem as the first person there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the person who is laughing in people's faces as they get eliminated and reaming them out, you know, in place of a better word, as soon as they get there and making them realize kind of like the humorous and their ways that resulted in her going home first and how it is comfortable that she is now the one sitting there or sitting there welcoming them as they also followed her to the edge.
[SPEAKER_02]: But to your point though, about like it being sacrilege, even especially from the return standpoint, you, you probably have a good point earlier.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, I've been thinking about like, you're right, it's like, while technically yes, in theory, Gavin should have just won because he actually outlasts everyone.
[SPEAKER_02]: By voting for Chris, you could argue that you're ignoring one third of the game.
[SPEAKER_02]: In though, you could also claim because of edge extinction.
[SPEAKER_02]: He did it outlast.
[SPEAKER_02]: Even though he got voted out, he outlasted everyone who else got the chance to compete in the edge of extinction part of the game.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's no different than we live in a world where one immunity challenge away, Aussie wins South Pacific after being eliminated three times.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because he played the redemption island game.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that win wouldn't have been as reviled as Chris Underwood's winning.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what he's our number 40, but another thing to consider, I think now because we have a so box to talk about as a section on it for a little while, I think what are the important thing, you brought up a really good point here, Alex, where you kind of have to view as you've extinction as another tribe in the game.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you're not voting people out of the game, but we have, sorry, what was that mean?
[SPEAKER_03]: You're voting people to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but you're also like, people quit the edge of extinction.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, this is, this is an aspect of this season that sure it might not be the most love, but it isn't aspect that has to be considered.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when you look at the edge of extinction as a tribe,
[SPEAKER_01]: They still have to play a social game in order to get these jury votes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, they get a bit of an advantage there, but they also can't claim strategic prowess like the strategic move-in-overing that Gavin has throughout the game.
[SPEAKER_01]: They can't even like challenge wins this stuff, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Chris wins a total of one challenge, the entire season.
[SPEAKER_01]: Two challenges?
[SPEAKER_01]: Two challenges, cause he wins final four immunity and the comeback challenge, and that's it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we see then we'll talk about the negative side of the social game when we get to winners of war when it comes to extinction.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, because we luckily have two sides of the coin that we're able to talk about it with, but there is one season in between.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that is island of the idols, John and I is a obligatory one reference into island of the idols and we see
[SPEAKER_03]: And then, so we are talking about Jack.
[SPEAKER_03]: We are going back to the pre-murge but jury situation here, which was very strange to me that they put Jack on the jury, but hey, congrats to Jack because there's also the alternate
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, and then they put him on, I, I, why, but he's just like kind of there and he's in a power position and he's in a duo with, um, Jamal and then Kelly's like
[SPEAKER_03]: Shall I make a move?
[SPEAKER_03]: I think Christal gives an idol to Dean who then idols out Jack.
[SPEAKER_03]: Her description of why Jack over Jamal is he's good with people, he's empathetic, super fun.
[SPEAKER_03]: She knows that she can trust him, which is strange.
[SPEAKER_03]: but it's not smart to keep him if he's also so well connected with other people as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that was her justification even if she can trust him.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's still, other people must feel the same way that she does and where does his actual loyalty lie.
[SPEAKER_03]: He does feel like a strange boot, but I think overall a good first-year
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, good first juror.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think Kelly also would have been a fine first juror in a world where they actually just let it get to a merge feed for.
[SPEAKER_02]: This season's weird with the one pre jury and if he who shall not be named wasn't ejected, we will have had 11 jurors on the season or if for whatever reason you went to a file to 12 jurors.
[SPEAKER_02]: And like this
[SPEAKER_02]: They're lucky in that record that they decided, let's try to mix it up and have a pre birch person on the jury.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I understood her logic when it came to Jamal and Jack, because if you're looking at them as a duo that Jamal has a little more control, Jack is more, I would say, the more social one of the two,
[SPEAKER_02]: more affable, more agreeable.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's, yes, I trust him.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's going to make him harder to get taken out as you get further and further into the game where based off what how people were talking about their relationships with Jamal, Jamal wasn't someone who was just going to shy away and
[SPEAKER_02]: He gets taking out two rounds later.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just, I don't think the same thing happens in a world where they idle out, Jamal and Jack still in the game.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you get a completely different boot order.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think, yeah, I think that they made the right call.
[SPEAKER_00]: I agree with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just don't see how you would get the numbers on Jack.
[SPEAKER_00]: So soon, it is kind of like a free agent at this point in the game.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't know how much I don't have a good read on on Jack as like a player or as a juror, I mean, this is this is bland here, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, we're basic, whatever, um, the one thing that we know about his game or the one thing I know is that he thinks honesty would be chill, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But that is important to know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that doesn't tell you about how it is so true.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's just, that's what everybody wants.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it tells you a little bit about how Jack is approaching the game.
[SPEAKER_00]: How he's thinking about the game, how he might, how he might vote as a, as a juror.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he doesn't really spend a lot of time with any one of these finalists because you have the original tribes and the swap.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he really only spends like but a week with each of these finalists here.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's hard to gauge what what his what his influences or his opinion is.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's personally, he's one of the most forgettable players to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: When I, I, I, I, I, I, I know as driver of players as well as anybody and I always forget Jack.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, so I was busy going back to a place to stick out here.
[SPEAKER_01]: So tell yourself short, you know, some of our players better than most people and you can't remember Jack, that says something.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Jack, Jack real, Kyle's just kind of hit the nail on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Jack is just kind of this nothing entity, the entire season.
[SPEAKER_01]: The biggest thing you remember about him throughout the entire thing in his relationship with Jamal and the whole, like, do red conversation in an ambulance.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's not even, like, actively involved in that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
[SPEAKER_01]: He isn't actively involved.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have no idea what he's doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: What he ends up doing, I think, if I'm not mistaken, I'm just double checking in us here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I am correct.
[SPEAKER_01]: Jack did at least from being a pre-merge boot sit or have the final three all have been on a tribe with him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I mean, I mean, I'm fired to like a prior to like being voted out.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll just do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it gives him better time to evaluate everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: But again, we just don't see enough jack in the season, because quite frankly, the editing on the season is patrocious.
[SPEAKER_03]: We get a little bit in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wonder why.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is it the King Queen and the Jack?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Molly, to Mall and Jack.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's the least involved in that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, this is the Jack.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's not the King Queen.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's just kind of put in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: He just like happens to be in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, it's like his relationship with Jamal is the only thing we really have any indication of in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And because of that, and because the editing is so bad because of the island of idols when also the, you know, the other things in the season.
[SPEAKER_01]: But mostly, because there's like this entire segment that doesn't need to be there, that takes up a lot of episodes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And because of that, like we just don't know Jack, wait, this is,
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really funny because you kind of look at, we talk about ghost island already, where that's a season where a lot of people kind of fall through the cracks in the edit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but the first juror, Chris Noble, is so pivotal to the storyline that we still know a lot about.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we talked about him for a good like 15, almost 20 minutes earlier.
[SPEAKER_01]: Jack just kind of slips through the cracks and doesn't seem consequential to anything.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think what Ghost Island benefits from is like it's a bang-wow premiere and then you have your other boots you fall off and you have a wow merge then you kind of fall off and then you have a wow FTC and you don't get that with island of the idols like the first juror is is a little shocking because it's pretty merge, but it's like who's the first juror?
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah, Jack.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, and then island of the idols gets shocking for other reasons that are not necessarily game related or people trying to use it as game material wouldn't it shouldn't be so um,
[SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't have that, you know, Chris Noble effect and he doesn't have that, you know, Wow, and there's also not a kind of direct opposition here that we're seeing too.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's not really opposing anybody.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's just riding the wave.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's sort of the issue of that you see with winner at it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So people who's gains derived entirely on the social game, Jack is the double whammy of his strength is his social game and just his aptitude to life.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, I think is what makes people like him or see him as a threat.
[SPEAKER_02]: And because it's not a merge episode,
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no reason to really highlight him or make him more of a focal point.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just an episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just an episode where we're going to shop the viewers at the end to be like, and he's the first juror.
[SPEAKER_01]: The other problem with his boot episode is he's not getting a focus in that episode because he's the guy who gets idle.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right the entire focus in that episode is the
[SPEAKER_02]: and not even a tribal council, tribal council is the whole thing of it's about Jamal and the women.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Jack is silent the entire time and just sitting there waiting to be idle now.
[SPEAKER_03]: And what I do like that Jack is saying in this episode, you got it like listen real quick, but Jack is the one that says to Jamal like, hey, let Kelly try fire.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's really good at it and Jamal's like, well, Kelly, you should do it over here.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I love Jamal.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I just, I forgot about this episode entire, I didn't realize, I didn't remember him being, you know,
[SPEAKER_03]: a abrasive, I don't know what the best word to describe it is because he does get, he does have such endearing moments throughout the entire season, and he's such a great guy, but then, you know, this episode, he's kind of just like in his own, where he's meant picking a lot, but like Jack is the one to be like, hey, Jamal, take a chill.
[SPEAKER_03]: Why don't you like Kelly do it?
[SPEAKER_03]: She's great, and then she strikes up the fire.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, so, um, for that case, some great moments in this episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for that case, there's some, having someone so like nonchalant and relaxing as Jack.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you didn't see them filled with as much tension as I apply.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, and that's why I think is Bo is rather weird because you would you should feel like he should go further because he is, you know, that kind of harmony in such a chaotic season.
[SPEAKER_03]: But chaotic seasons don't like those people.
[SPEAKER_03]: They want to get those people out.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, any other blasts on Jack?
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess technically I would consider him better, but like, basically.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I would know.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's one of the reasons of the two he's better.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Of the two.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's dive into winners at war because I feel like this is going to be a longer discussion than even edge was.
[SPEAKER_03]: But so winners at war is so wild because though the first boot is Natalie, like we had an edge of extinction, Riem was the first boot firsture.
[SPEAKER_03]: Natalie then gets back
[SPEAKER_03]: put her feelers into every person that has gotten to the edge granted.
[SPEAKER_03]: So has Amber but out of the two, Natalie is the most vocal and it's just so strange that she then gets put into the final tribal council and now Amber is this, you know,
[SPEAKER_03]: mayor of the edge.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the only reason why Amber is on the edge is because of Boston Rob and because of Boston Rob's decisions, pre-game, that, um,
[SPEAKER_03]: He didn't let Sandra know that he was going to be on the island and Sandra's like, well, Amber's got to go because I'm better toward that decision.
[SPEAKER_03]: If Boston, Robert, told Sandra that he was coming out and broke whatever NDA, you know, you're not supposed to say, then this could be a very different season and Sandra could be in with the poker alliance and, you know, be going further in the game who knows.
[SPEAKER_03]: She just gets robbed in this season of being voted out because of her husband and she doesn't really even get to play.
[SPEAKER_03]: Though at Tribal Council, she does feel very behind the times, but I don't think it is to the fact that she couldn't learn to catch up.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and I'm going to hate everything about this conversation because I'm I'm so new when it comes to all stars like I, I give Amber a little more cred that I think the typical person does for I'm not late.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's Boston Rob.
[SPEAKER_02]: She is not there to play the game.
[SPEAKER_02]: She is not there to try to win the game.
[SPEAKER_02]: She is there to help Boston Rob because she knows how much survivor means to Boston Rob.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she's a very good partner in life and cares what her husband wants to do and is passionate about.
[SPEAKER_02]: She has checked out not and wasn't going to check in.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think if she came in and was like, it's going to be cool to play with.
[SPEAKER_02]: my husband again and but I want to prove to everyone that I'm just as hungry as he is and I can win a season like this.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think she goes out first.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think she has a very tough road ahead of her.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think there was paths where she wasn't just going to be an inevitability and a project of this is what it is because you're connected to boss and rob for life.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's, uh, we have an odd circumstance here where the first boot slash first juror is also one of the finalists, um, you know, we're never going to see that again.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but Amber is, uh, you know that, you don't know what you see over there, but that one happens again.
[SPEAKER_03]: All three of us, you don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Amber is she's yeah, like like you said she's checked out.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's not in the game.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's not really, you know, she's half a participant in the game, really.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she sticks it out on edge of extinction, which is great, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so she is.
[SPEAKER_03]: Join her to far later from.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is true.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now this is, I wonder if they should actually put Robin Amber on the same tribe to start this season.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know why you would split them up, but I think that it would have been far more interesting to actually put them together and let's say someone from Selle, which is places with Amber, I wonder how that first vote goes on.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's all things there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And today, if you didn't want to get a couple of the upper plane favorites,
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, Natalie and Jeremy are on the same tribe.
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like that's as close as you can get to Boston, Rob.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, remember.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then so, but here is where I was referencing the negative side of the social game on edge of extinction with Natalie, where she spends a lot of time with these players.
[SPEAKER_00]: And where Chris was like, you know, doing good social things and like, you know, being a provider and and making the most of his time, Natalie, I think was was really
[SPEAKER_00]: kind of bothering people like I know you will for sure has talked about how how Natalie was not pleasant to live with on on edge of extinction and you know some others probably felt the same way and the votes that she does get are from Jeremy her friend Tyson I guess also her friend who might
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, but also Tyson Tyson has said he vote for Nali because he like Natalie the best.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, he was like am I going to go outside the game.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, am I going to vote for somebody who like I played with for a week or am I going to vote for somebody who I spent a lot of time with and really bonded with.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's where the dynamic of edge of extinction comes in the play here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, none of that has anything to do with Amber, but I don't know, I think it's more
[SPEAKER_00]: more Natalie setting the tone for herself, which is an odd thing to say, but I think that that is more of what dictates the vote here, where the person returning ends up losing because of their time on edge of extinction.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think Amber plays a bigger context into this than we like to give credit for because I think she gets overshadowed by a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'd like to hear.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think one of the things we do know is that Amber and Rob were one of the
[SPEAKER_01]: big push like the big people on the edge pushing the fact that Natalie had to follow up with Frank in order to be considered to win.
[SPEAKER_01]: And is a lot of the reason why Michelle doesn't get votes in a smile shadow council is because they were very adamant that like we have to make sure that it doesn't win.
[SPEAKER_01]: She didn't follow up as a blueprint.
[SPEAKER_01]: She didn't do what she needed to do to get to the end of the game.
[SPEAKER_01]: she tried to play safe and she lost because of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it is actually really important.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's actually the fact that Amber becomes too jury votes is also really important.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think this and we're not just talking like, yes, Amber isn't the most local person in the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: Boston Rock is one of the people in the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: So having him there as, and being combined with him, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, they are two loved ones playing this game together, but they're also two loved ones working this both here and they both have, the thing is they have the same social circle when it comes to this game.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because they're very, they literally know the exact same people.
[SPEAKER_01]: They interact with the exact same people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, Rob might be closer with some of them and they might be closer with some of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: but they talked to the same people that came from the same era of the show, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't think there is it's really fair separating them, but at the same time, I don't think it's fair saying Amber has no control over this because I think her being there in a pair on that on the edge of extension actually does dictate a lot of this game and makes it so that there's a lot more
[SPEAKER_01]: And it does actually impact the end of this game.
[SPEAKER_03]: We all know who wears the pants in the relationship between Austin Rob and Amber.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you know, Amber and Boston Rob talk.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then Boston Rob is just that is that mouthpiece, too.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, the Rob is just more vocal.
[SPEAKER_00]: he gives her a lot of credit for for various things like in in all stars he gives her more credit than what if Anne's doing he he makes sure that she gets that respect and you know in in life and then probably here you know he's so he he really lets it be known that Amber is like a really big influence
[SPEAKER_00]: and has a big say, even though, like you said, Boston Robb is the mouthpiece, so you don't see that as much.
[SPEAKER_03]: I cried, I'm with the Edge of Extinction Returning Moment, where the final challenge in the finale, where Amber is like, OK, you know, everybody thought this guy over here deserved it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I came out here for him, but you know, I never thought I could win.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then Boston Rob just chimes in like, this is the toughest woman I know and she stayed out here this entire time made rice for everybody never complained this this woman that's a champion.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it speaks to her character on the edge, where she is that mother role of like, okay, you know, I'll make rice for everybody.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm gonna do what I have to do to make it through this game.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that can lead to lending people's ear a little bit more of like Amber's really nice.
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe I, you know, listen to what she thinks who she thinks might be a deserving winner for the game.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's treated me really well here on the edge because, you know, she's made it her home for the entire time, basically.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm very curious though, because like we'll never know a world with a different scenario here.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're never going to see Amber play again.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're never going to see Amber and Rob play together again if Rob were to ever play again.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know he's retired, but
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I get it.
[SPEAKER_02]: But in a world, let's say Natalie pulls the Chris under one.
[SPEAKER_02]: Does every single thing on the checklist that the people give.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you go to tribal council and one of the things Rob makes very clear to Natalie is like, why did you isolate basically
[SPEAKER_02]: Amber, why do isolate you will?
[SPEAKER_02]: Why did you isolate even doesn't care, even ends up voting for her, but
[SPEAKER_02]: I wonder what a world we're like Natalie does cross all the teas and like so bots are up then decides that because you took out Tony you win.
[SPEAKER_02]: Natalie does Amber follow a student boat.
[SPEAKER_02]: Natalie or is she justifiably in that sense better towards Natalie and like I can't vote for her because I don't like how she treated me on the edge.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll never
[SPEAKER_02]: But then that also creates a whole other vacuum of do you have like the window atom and Nick
[SPEAKER_02]: Are they pushing harder for Michelle to get all the votes to ensure that Natalie doesn't win?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because they work the ones, not the old schoolers, that we're very vocal of, we to ensure that Natalie does not win this game.
[SPEAKER_02]: We would prefer to vote for Michelle, but we fear if we vote for Michelle enough people are gonna vote for Natalie in the split and she wins base off the plurality.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so the doubt becoming Michelle versus Natalie with Sarah there with a couple votes from Denise and then and we get a different outcome entirely.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it was really good to call it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was saying about the edge of extension, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you had to use a tribe and you could treat it like a tribe and I don't think Natalie was treating it like a tribe.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, she was a member was playing that provider role and, you know, was it is able to, you know, work the rest of her jurors, if need to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what it comes down to is like, Natalie was treating this as Bond Rosa, not as I tried and because of that, like, for hopefully game stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, like, yeah, okay, you're not meeting the outlash photo of Survivor, it's like you're outlashing a different way you have the experience because God, that will be miserable.
[SPEAKER_01]: Especially in this season was what they were having them do and everything.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the models and the coconuts and all that, like, a lot of running back and forth in the exit, with one cup of rice out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bye.
[SPEAKER_01]: what I think this really comes down to is the fact that Amber as a juror values that social connection.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like when you look back at Amber's win, we choose young, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: She was young and she doesn't have these maternal instincts that she has an edge of attention or in winners at work on the edge of extinction.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think like you really see the evolution of Amber from season eight
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, as much as like she gets voted out for like being connected to Rob, and she had some time there, so like she could have been some damage this season.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think she could have easily worked her way and so I'm sure because she is, she does have this very likable personality like she had a likable personality and all stars, but she kind of had like a little bit of that like mean girl aspect that she had in Australia still.
[SPEAKER_03]: Not as much, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: She learned.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly, and like by the time we get to edge of her because I'm going to get to wear as a word, she is I hate so confusing that you're existing in this season.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but in we're seeing that complete evolution of Amber, and I think that really does apply for this and I think because of that evolution, that is why she's so adamantly against Natalie and then because like,
[SPEAKER_01]: I think if almost anyone else who's back from the edge of the extension, Amber, probably feels more come out to vote for them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Make a bolder take.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: In a world where Amber comes back from the edge.
[SPEAKER_02]: We are talking about two-time winner Amber Burkett.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think that's a bold take.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that is a very important part of that take.
[SPEAKER_00]: That she would have any desire to win that challenge to combat.
[SPEAKER_02]: Both words, I think it's a thing in the world where it just falls.
[SPEAKER_02]: It falls on her lap and obviously there's a lot of things that would have to go right for her to end up in that file for you because Tony's not dumb, Sarah's not dumb.
[SPEAKER_02]: They blow to you to her right back out.
[SPEAKER_02]: But in a row where she gets there, she plays a better Chris under way game.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh, whatever, something.
[SPEAKER_01]: I actually, but it's crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not to make this about Chris Underwood again, but I think Natalie, as you can actually does crop up Chris's game quite a bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not necessarily just to play well on the edge of extinction.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I also think that we're talking about Amber's growth arc through her through her seasons.
[SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, the which finalist is most like me, Tony's growth arc through all of his seasons, that could be something that, you know, she connects to as well because he had to adapt to his gameplay.
[SPEAKER_03]: What where Amber didn't necessarily adapt to gameplay, but, you know, she's just, she's just grown as a person from the last time she played and I think, you know, that could have resonated with Tony as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's another watch and this is this is winners at war right like this is an all winners season and I think if you're going to vote for someone who was voted out and came back into the game
[SPEAKER_00]: like you need to have a spotless resume, like it needs to be so strong and when you're sitting next to someone like Tony who absolutely represents the winners that were in every way, it's for the same reason why I think everybody voted for Chris on edge of extinction is for the same reason why they don't vote for Natalie here, is that it's like
[SPEAKER_00]: we want somebody from edge of extinction to represent our season when you're on edge of extinction or on winners at war we want the best winner to represent our season so is it impossible that someone who came back couldn't have won like no but it was going to be extremely difficult no matter who it was because of the season.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because you have to go to the list, like, only you're Sarah at the end.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like good luck.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a shout, like we shouldn't discount this final score.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, Michelle is the person in the presence.
[SPEAKER_02]: Social game like when you get the final four.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, in a world where even, let's say Natalie wasn't voted out, we know what Natalie's game is like, that's a very impressive style of player Tony is a very impressive style player Sarah from like was basically repeating game changers and was getting away with it like that's insane Michelle.
[SPEAKER_02]: only when or to get to the end in both like both tries never being voted out and that being her only seasons like obviously Sandra, but like and the other two get medically evacuated or quit.
[SPEAKER_02]: um, before they have a chance to.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's like Michelle's game obviously gets zero votes deserves a lot more.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought in real time when I was watching this, like I knew Tony was winning, but I thought there was a world where like an Amber sees her like a younger version of her in Michelle and would have given Michelle her vote because like we've been
[SPEAKER_02]: You end up picking people that are your avatars in the file three and I feel like Michelle most reflects.
[SPEAKER_02]: Amber's avatar of like this person who has been an underestimated woman who should never have been underestimated because we know how lethal us killer social gain can be and just being nice to people.
[SPEAKER_03]: And like I needed to talk more to each other of being like Amber don't you see yourself in Michelle and like already had a great relationship with Michelle on the beach
[SPEAKER_01]: But they didn't like, we're gonna tell these game, like, right.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you could have made an argument there.
[SPEAKER_02]: You could have made an argument about the style of play.
[SPEAKER_02]: And like Tony also gets the benefit of having people, poverty says it during the final tribal council of like, you sent so many of these people out of this game and almost all of them, almost come back and being like, I of all the people I feel bitter at, I don't with Tony.
[SPEAKER_02]: I get it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that goes to Tony's credit for how incredibly did where even in the world we're robbed in some of the old scores potentially would have voted for Natalie if Natalie didn't isolate them and then played the perfect game.
[SPEAKER_02]: That also means Tony isn't there, but still, it's like you get these credits from people from over
[SPEAKER_02]: multiple errors of the show being like we have to get this man credit because we all wanted them out.
[SPEAKER_02]: We all wanted them out first if it was up to us and he was able to out maneuver outplay us, did not have to go to the edge, got stored it by the edge, buy someone in the final three and is still here.
[SPEAKER_02]: So no matter how great Natalie did coming back,
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a weird thing where like she absolutely needed to ensure that Tony was out.
[SPEAKER_02]: And once you don't take Tony out, you lose that credit with an Amber and a Rob and a Danny and a Yul.
[SPEAKER_02]: And suddenly that now becomes Y Tony wins.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, that has been our show everybody.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, so next week, we will be talking about the new era officially and we are going to go with 41 through 45.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, so tune in next week for another episode of Better or Better, John specials universe.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the video, subscribe to the channel.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are suffering a tomorrow, it will fill and once my island will be breaking down there are the winners that we just discussed from the least five seasons.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'll be, what?
[SPEAKER_01]: all the people who we talked about today.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that would be interesting if you want to listen to fills, just like I'm for a sender wouldn't demonstrate to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just understand, for a sender would it's not actually kind of good at the game.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then on Sunday, that's for it's Sunday, the top 10 of the winter ranking will come out should be very interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's an interesting crop that remains in that top tent.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it should be interesting to see how bad the wilder rhythm messes everything up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's joining us over on the Patreon.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, become a patron, join the Patreon.
[SPEAKER_01]: Every season matters is doing game changers right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Kind of down to a little bit earlier, but interesting season to discuss nonetheless.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we'll leave right back here next week for that new era at the end.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, everybody, see you next week, goodbye.