WEBVTT 00:05.649 --> 00:07.975 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Lord of the Rings lorecast. 00:08.877 --> 00:14.391 [SPEAKER_00]: The show that explores the background of Tolkien's amazing world, from the very beginning. 00:26.764 --> 00:34.730 [SPEAKER_00]: So today we are wrapping up chapter three, three is company with a very interesting conversation between Frodo and Gildor. 00:35.050 --> 00:47.019 [SPEAKER_00]: And also, this is the first time I've noticed that chapter three is a three is company begins with a three, like of course I know the name of the chapter, but I'm sure Tolkien was aware of this. 00:47.059 --> 00:53.924 [SPEAKER_00]: And this might have been the kind of thing that he did on purpose or noticed himself when he did it and then decided that that was a good idea. 00:55.545 --> 00:57.505 [SPEAKER_00]: It feels like a Tolkien-esque kind of thing. 00:57.846 --> 01:02.867 [SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, this section of the chapter is interesting to me for a very specific reason. 01:03.547 --> 01:08.268 [SPEAKER_00]: The reason is that as we get into it, you'll see that Frodo and Gildor have a conversation. 01:08.368 --> 01:13.509 [SPEAKER_00]: And Frodo asks Gildor for information, for advice. 01:13.929 --> 01:18.290 [SPEAKER_00]: He reveals a little bit about what's going on without actually revealing the ring. 01:18.450 --> 01:24.752 [SPEAKER_00]: But you can tell that Gildor is aware that there's more going on that he doesn't exactly know the details about yet. 01:25.812 --> 01:38.719 [SPEAKER_00]: The thing that's interesting about this chapter is that Gildor does not reveal everything, and he tries not to give Frodo advice, which feels counter-intuitive, and Gildor gives an explanation. 01:38.799 --> 01:48.104 [SPEAKER_00]: He has a justification for why this is actually the better thing to do, and we'll talk about why that does or doesn't feel like a good decision on his part. 01:48.604 --> 01:52.746 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think that there's also this meta-layer of what's going on here. 01:53.166 --> 02:00.411 [SPEAKER_00]: Allow me to take you back into the writer's room with Tolkien or any other author, and let's look at the situation from their perspective. 02:00.872 --> 02:14.162 [SPEAKER_00]: We have a number of characters who have just set off on an adventure with a limited amount of knowledge bestowed on them by the most informed and most powerful person that they know and that person has disappeared. 02:14.642 --> 02:15.643 [SPEAKER_00]: Why did they disappear? 02:15.703 --> 02:25.590 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, there are in-story reasons for why Gandalf isn't here right now, but from a meta-perspective, if he were here right now, that would kill the tension of the moment. 02:25.670 --> 02:27.612 [SPEAKER_00]: They would have Gandalf to rely on. 02:27.672 --> 02:28.833 [SPEAKER_00]: I've talked about this before. 02:29.213 --> 02:42.683 [SPEAKER_00]: It happens in superhero movies where you end up with a team of heroes and one or two of them are way more powerful than everyone else, so you have to send those ones off on some side adventure to take on something more at their scale, 02:43.103 --> 02:50.224 [SPEAKER_00]: in order for the rest of the team to be able to have to deal with whatever else is going on that they would have been able to deal with much more easily. 02:50.737 --> 02:51.757 [SPEAKER_00]: same sort of thing happens here. 02:51.777 --> 02:57.680 [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, it happens a lot in fantasy stories, and in other works of fiction and movies, you'll start noticing this pattern all over the place. 02:58.240 --> 03:18.088 [SPEAKER_00]: But what happens in this situation with Frodo is that Gildor and the rest of the elves show up just in time to keep them safe from the ringrathes and to give them a little bit of coaching, a little bit of awareness about what's going on in the greater world, but without revealing too much. 03:18.888 --> 03:23.149 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's the dilemma is how much do you reveal to them here? 03:23.249 --> 03:29.091 [SPEAKER_00]: How much do you take the Hobbits under the wings of these elves in order to keep them safe? 03:29.331 --> 03:32.472 [SPEAKER_00]: Or is that too powerful a move? 03:32.512 --> 03:35.913 [SPEAKER_00]: Does it totally remove the tension from the situation? 03:36.493 --> 03:44.660 [SPEAKER_00]: I would argue that it does, and so Tolkien needed to come up with a reason for why the elves were helpful, but not too helpful. 03:45.000 --> 03:46.982 [SPEAKER_00]: And his justification here is interesting. 03:47.162 --> 03:50.204 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not because they're being selfish, it's not because they're lazy. 03:50.965 --> 03:59.072 [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, they have very good reasons for being concerned about Frodo, and very good reasons for withholding certain information. 03:59.672 --> 04:13.833 [SPEAKER_00]: Specifically, not revealing exactly what the ring rates are, and this of course builds the tension more for the audience, but also makes them feel mysterious to the other characters, and now we are. 04:14.414 --> 04:20.416 [SPEAKER_00]: being pulled into the story because we have questions and we want to find out what the answer to those questions are. 04:21.116 --> 04:33.741 [SPEAKER_00]: Also, when asked to give advice, he refuses to give advice, not because he didn't think he had good advice, but because he believed that not giving advice was the right thing to do in the situation. 04:34.221 --> 04:44.889 [SPEAKER_00]: And we could discuss how this type of thing happens a lot in Tolkien's work, where things appear to be one way or things appear, like there's an easy solution, right? 04:44.909 --> 04:46.950 [SPEAKER_00]: This is exactly what you should do in the situation. 04:47.290 --> 04:55.917 [SPEAKER_00]: And then Tolkien goes, but not exactly because of this other thing that you hadn't considered, which is actually very important in this world that I've built. 04:56.557 --> 05:00.600 [SPEAKER_00]: And then we go, oh, and we start to see the world through a different kind of lens. 05:01.020 --> 05:02.842 [SPEAKER_00]: That's basically what's happening here. 05:03.342 --> 05:19.455 [SPEAKER_00]: And because Tolkien is so consistent with his world and the tone and the nature of his characters, their motivations, all of those things, we more easily believe that that is legitimately a good reason, even if it comes across a little bit odd to us. 05:20.075 --> 05:26.149 [SPEAKER_00]: So keep these things in mind as we zoom into the details of this conversation and take it apart, piece by piece. 05:26.790 --> 05:27.151 [SPEAKER_00]: Here we go. 05:41.618 --> 05:47.440 [SPEAKER_00]: So we're told at the beginning of this section that Frodo and Gildor spoke about lots of different things. 05:48.001 --> 06:06.148 [SPEAKER_00]: The happenings of the wide world outside the Shire primarily, and the tone here is described as sad and ominous, focusing tells us that most of the conversation is about the gathering darkness, the wars of men, the flight of the elves, the troubles of the world. 06:06.768 --> 06:23.820 [SPEAKER_00]: We can tell that the world is quickly moving into a situation that is encapsulating all of these groups due to that gathering darkness which easily leads into exactly what they're about to discuss about Frodo's specific situation. 06:24.560 --> 06:26.641 [SPEAKER_00]: Frodo has other questions though initially. 06:27.201 --> 06:36.344 [SPEAKER_00]: Bilbo has been on his mind and he's curious about whatever happened to Bilbo, knowing that Gildor comes from that part of the world where Bilbo was traveling to. 06:36.664 --> 06:40.226 [SPEAKER_00]: He says, tell me, Gildor, have you ever seen Bilbo since he left us? 06:40.926 --> 06:41.887 [SPEAKER_00]: And Gilder smiles. 06:42.007 --> 06:43.609 [SPEAKER_00]: He says, yes, twice. 06:44.089 --> 06:46.712 [SPEAKER_00]: He said farewell to us at this very spot. 06:47.112 --> 06:49.334 [SPEAKER_00]: But I saw him once again far from here. 06:49.915 --> 06:53.939 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I would guess that that other place that he saw him was probably Rivendell. 06:54.459 --> 07:02.948 [SPEAKER_00]: But what's more interesting than that, because we know Bilbo was heading to Rivendell, is that they were at this very spot together when Bilbo left. 07:03.548 --> 07:06.069 [SPEAKER_00]: on, well, his journey after his birthday party. 07:06.589 --> 07:08.270 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, that seems coincidental. 07:08.350 --> 07:14.513 [SPEAKER_00]: We know that there are some parallels happening here, both of them 50 years old when they set off on their adventure. 07:15.033 --> 07:24.417 [SPEAKER_00]: And more recently, Bobo leaving after his 111th birthday, he heads out and seemingly runs into elves again on his journey. 07:24.837 --> 07:24.997 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, 07:25.557 --> 07:54.087 [SPEAKER_00]: Gildor and the rest of the elves may have been already informed that he was leaving and decided to accompany him on his journey to make sure he was safe or the other possibility is there's a reason why they travel through these lands that they are doing rounds they are wandering with specific goals they are just coming over here to visit the the forest that happens to be near woodhaul because they just happened to like the forest although that might also be true. 07:54.767 --> 07:58.989 [SPEAKER_00]: There's more going on here, or at least that seems to be what is implied. 07:59.129 --> 08:08.474 [SPEAKER_00]: It isn't specifically stated here, but it seems to be implying that these elves and Gildor specifically are paying attention to the world. 08:08.714 --> 08:09.634 [SPEAKER_00]: They are traveling. 08:09.674 --> 08:11.155 [SPEAKER_00]: They are witnessing events. 08:11.535 --> 08:16.938 [SPEAKER_00]: They are looking in on the hobbits, even if they aren't knocking on their doors and visiting them directly. 08:17.538 --> 08:22.343 [SPEAKER_00]: they are keeping an ear to the ground, much like the Rangers have done. 08:22.363 --> 08:27.628 [SPEAKER_00]: And then we're told that he wouldn't say any more about Bilbo and Frodo became silent again. 08:28.269 --> 08:33.735 [SPEAKER_00]: Then he does speak up and he says, you do not ask me or tell me much that concerns yourself, Frodo. 08:34.295 --> 08:48.182 [SPEAKER_00]: But I already know a little and I can read more in your face and in the thought behind your questions, you are leaving the Shire and yet you doubt that you will find what you seek or accomplish what you intend or that you will ever return. 08:49.365 --> 08:50.306 [SPEAKER_00]: is not that so. 08:50.766 --> 09:06.642 [SPEAKER_00]: So he begins to poke at the things that he can't quite tell yet about what's going on with Frodo, but he knows that this journey is odd and the timing and the attitudes of the Hobbits, the situation and the fact that the Nazgul are pursuing them. 09:07.062 --> 09:07.703 [SPEAKER_00]: All of this is 09:09.024 --> 09:15.752 [SPEAKER_00]: contextual hints to him that this seems to be what's happening here, but he's looking for concrete proof. 09:15.772 --> 09:18.396 [SPEAKER_00]: He wants to see what Frodo will actually share about it. 09:19.057 --> 09:24.683 [SPEAKER_00]: Frodo says, it is, but I thought my going was a secret known only to Gandalf and my faithful Sam. 09:25.244 --> 09:30.288 [SPEAKER_00]: seemingly implying that maybe somebody told Gildor what was actually happening but I don't think that's the case. 09:30.428 --> 09:43.800 [SPEAKER_00]: Gildor is, well, he's an elf and elves tend to have kind of a wise and whizz and is that the ray was here that awareness of context and situations and can kind of infer what's actually happening here. 09:44.380 --> 09:51.586 [SPEAKER_00]: and Gildor reaffirms to him that any knowledge that he has is safe with them, he says, the sequel will not reach the enemy from us. 09:52.026 --> 09:55.349 [SPEAKER_00]: And this in some ways betrays his hand of cards. 09:55.589 --> 09:56.770 [SPEAKER_00]: I guess you could say it like that. 09:57.271 --> 10:08.841 [SPEAKER_00]: The fact that Gildor knows that Frodo's secret is important because the enemy wants that secret seems obvious once you realize that if you know who the 10:10.742 --> 10:16.026 [SPEAKER_00]: that Sauron wouldn't be sending the Nazgul to find a Hobbit unless that secret was important to him. 10:16.387 --> 10:27.856 [SPEAKER_00]: So, it seems obvious to Gildor, but now Frodo is aware that that is where Gildor's mind has gone, and he is seemingly closer to the truth than Frodo is comfortable with. 10:28.336 --> 10:31.518 [SPEAKER_00]: Frodo says, the enemy, then you know why I'm leaving the Shire? 10:32.119 --> 10:34.721 [SPEAKER_00]: As if maybe Gildor actually can tell the 10:37.443 --> 10:40.006 [SPEAKER_00]: But Gildor isn't, and he's honest with Frodo. 10:40.046 --> 10:43.290 [SPEAKER_00]: He says, I do not know for what reason the enemy is pursuing you. 10:43.650 --> 10:53.662 [SPEAKER_00]: But I perceive that he is, strange indeed though that seems to me, and I warn you that peril is now both before you and behind you, and upon either side. 10:54.223 --> 11:19.609 [SPEAKER_00]: So he's piecing it together, but he's still speaking kind of cryptically as often the elves or the wise seem to do and at first when he says parallel is now both before you and behind you initially my gut instinct on reading this is that he's telling us something in a Gandalfian sort of way where he's talking about the future and the past or the place that you left you can't go back to but the dangers of the road. 11:24.610 --> 11:30.774 [SPEAKER_00]: But then he says, and upon either side, and that has other implications. 11:31.114 --> 11:32.575 [SPEAKER_00]: That feels more present. 11:32.655 --> 11:33.595 [SPEAKER_00]: It feels more now. 11:33.935 --> 11:35.456 [SPEAKER_00]: This isn't a future in past thing. 11:35.476 --> 11:37.637 [SPEAKER_00]: This is a nowhere you were and where you're going. 11:37.997 --> 11:50.264 [SPEAKER_00]: This is a situational awareness that they are surrounded by the enemy and Gildor is informing them that they need to be absolutely careful because they are not safe right now. 11:54.166 --> 11:59.388 [SPEAKER_00]: they are being pursued, and there are more black writers than Frodo is aware of. 12:00.048 --> 12:01.308 [SPEAKER_00]: And he picks up on this. 12:01.348 --> 12:02.829 [SPEAKER_00]: He says, you mean the writers? 12:03.009 --> 12:04.849 [SPEAKER_00]: I feared that they were servants of the enemy. 12:05.069 --> 12:06.570 [SPEAKER_00]: What are the black writers? 12:07.110 --> 12:10.591 [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, Frodo's gut feeling on this is absolutely correct. 12:10.671 --> 12:13.752 [SPEAKER_00]: They wouldn't make sense as anything else that he's aware of. 12:14.132 --> 12:23.355 [SPEAKER_00]: But then the conversation turns to Gandalf and the differences in the knowledge that Frodo has, what Gandalf has and hasn't shared with them, and what Gildor knows. 12:23.975 --> 12:26.696 [SPEAKER_00]: Gilder says, has Gandalf told you nothing? 12:27.577 --> 12:29.698 [SPEAKER_00]: For out of response, nothing about such creatures? 12:30.518 --> 12:37.122 [SPEAKER_00]: Then Gilder says, then I think it is not for me to say more, less terror should keep you from your journey. 12:37.722 --> 12:43.545 [SPEAKER_00]: This is his justification, and this goes back to what I was talking about just a minute ago at the beginning of the episode. 12:44.085 --> 12:59.293 [SPEAKER_00]: It seems like it would be better, at least my gut instinct is, that it seems like it would be better to know the truth of the situation, so that you or Frodo would be able to actually deal with the situation as it is. 12:59.954 --> 13:01.515 [SPEAKER_00]: But when you think about it for a minute, 13:02.095 --> 13:08.877 [SPEAKER_00]: There's nothing Frodo can do to contest with the power of the Nazgul other than to try to avoid them. 13:09.477 --> 13:22.180 [SPEAKER_00]: There is no way that he could prepare to deal with them, and the more afraid of them he is, because Gildor reveals the truth behind how terrifying they actually are. 13:22.740 --> 13:28.482 [SPEAKER_00]: The more scared he'll be, and like Gildor says here, it might have kept him from going on his journey. 13:28.862 --> 13:49.150 [SPEAKER_00]: But when we tie together the fact that the ring is on Frodo, and the Nazgul have an effect of causing terror just by proximity to the people around them, and that feeling of terror can take over Frodo, and all of a sudden he's putting the ring on, unaware of what he's doing. 13:49.750 --> 13:52.772 [SPEAKER_00]: that seems like actually a wise decision. 13:53.172 --> 14:14.207 [SPEAKER_00]: If Gildor had revealed more to Frodo in this moment, it may have doomed his mission, and he's wise enough to know that he needs Frodo to just keep moving forward with whatever his mission is so that he can deal with it as he goes on, so that he doesn't self-sabotage it due to his own fear and the terror of what's actually happening. 14:14.647 --> 14:20.671 [SPEAKER_00]: Gilder also tells him that it seems like he left just in time, but he needs to make haste. 14:21.272 --> 14:22.853 [SPEAKER_00]: And there is no turning back. 14:23.213 --> 14:24.714 [SPEAKER_00]: There is no safety in the shire. 14:25.095 --> 14:26.436 [SPEAKER_00]: He cannot go back. 14:26.856 --> 14:30.279 [SPEAKER_00]: The only answer is to continue moving forward. 14:30.999 --> 14:42.164 [SPEAKER_00]: And Frodo responds, he says, I cannot imagine what information could be more terrifying than your hints and warnings, and that's the rock and a hard place that Gildor is in here. 14:42.524 --> 14:47.647 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you reveal the truth knowing that it's terrifying or do you do you withhold it? 14:47.967 --> 14:53.650 [SPEAKER_00]: Knowing that Frodo is going to be now worried about what the truth might actually be, and imagining other terrible things. 14:54.250 --> 14:55.331 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think Yldor is right here. 14:55.732 --> 14:58.034 [SPEAKER_00]: The second option is the better of two evils. 14:58.855 --> 15:03.960 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe evils isn't the right way to say it, but the better of two difficult answers to the question. 15:04.440 --> 15:11.287 [SPEAKER_00]: And Frodo even says here that he knew there was danger ahead of him, but he did not expect it in the Shire, which might. 15:12.008 --> 15:16.251 [SPEAKER_00]: set off kind of a red flag to you, isn't this exactly what Gandalf warned him about? 15:16.572 --> 15:24.198 [SPEAKER_00]: The fact that he would need to move fairly quickly because the enemy captured Gallum and Gallum revealed the Shire and Baggins. 15:24.758 --> 15:29.202 [SPEAKER_00]: But when you think about it for a minute, I think Frodo is doing the thing that so many of us do. 15:29.782 --> 15:33.705 [SPEAKER_00]: We want to manufacture the reality around us. 15:33.885 --> 15:38.988 [SPEAKER_00]: And we are more willing to believe a lie because it's a comforting lie. 15:39.449 --> 15:40.629 [SPEAKER_00]: It's the truth. 15:40.790 --> 15:48.835 [SPEAKER_00]: It's the lower case T truth that we want to believe as opposed to the uppercase T truth of the reality outside of ourselves. 15:49.355 --> 15:51.557 [SPEAKER_00]: And this seems to be what Frodo's dealing with here. 15:51.997 --> 15:54.119 [SPEAKER_00]: Remember, he even delayed leaving 15:54.659 --> 15:56.401 [SPEAKER_00]: He thought Gandalf was going to return. 15:56.701 --> 15:57.882 [SPEAKER_00]: He stuck to that truth. 15:57.962 --> 16:00.484 [SPEAKER_00]: He's been hoping that Gandalf shows up on the road. 16:00.764 --> 16:08.071 [SPEAKER_00]: He's sticking to that personal truth, even though the capital T truth around him is that Gandalf is not showing up. 16:08.551 --> 16:15.598 [SPEAKER_00]: He is out here with Sam and Pippin and Nelson Melves and they are on their own, and this is the best that they've got. 16:16.038 --> 16:21.263 [SPEAKER_00]: And as much as he doesn't want to believe it, the enemy is in the shire for suing him right now. 16:21.783 --> 16:33.173 [SPEAKER_00]: And then we get this, I don't know, reality bomb, is that the way to say it from Gildor, where he straight up says, this is not your own shire, and he gives him a bit of history lesson. 16:33.193 --> 16:39.258 [SPEAKER_00]: He says, others dwelt here before Hobbits were, and others will dwelt here again when Hobbits are no more. 16:39.758 --> 16:41.439 [SPEAKER_00]: the wide world is all about you. 16:41.740 --> 16:55.170 [SPEAKER_00]: You can fence yourself in, but you cannot forever fence it out, which feels like a lesson that's just as important to the Hobbits as it is to the elves, because the elves have done exactly that thing. 16:55.651 --> 17:04.538 [SPEAKER_00]: With Rivendil, with Lothlorian, they fence themselves into these little hiding spots in the world where they're able to kind of 17:05.058 --> 17:19.631 [SPEAKER_00]: freeze time, and freeze the world around them to be more like the world that they came from, but they know deep down that the world just keeps moving on, time keeps going, and they've seen this happen. 17:20.132 --> 17:24.896 [SPEAKER_00]: Inhabitants don't always live in the same place, the world does change. 17:25.356 --> 17:31.182 [SPEAKER_00]: And for all those moments where you feel safe and at peace, there will always be moments where you are not. 17:31.622 --> 17:39.849 [SPEAKER_00]: And Frodo responds emotionally, he laments that the Shire has always felt like a safe and familiar place, and it has been during his lifetime. 17:40.550 --> 17:45.735 [SPEAKER_00]: And he admits that he's leaving the Shire secretly on his way to Rivendell. 17:45.755 --> 17:56.865 [SPEAKER_00]: So he's given Gildor that much knowledge about where he's going, but then he says, but now my footsteps are dogged before ever I get to Buckland, lamenting that the danger is already here. 17:56.925 --> 17:58.086 [SPEAKER_00]: He thought he had more time. 17:58.626 --> 18:03.390 [SPEAKER_00]: And then this is where we get Gildor being careful about the advice that he gives. 18:03.950 --> 18:06.492 [SPEAKER_00]: He at first says, I think you should still follow that plan. 18:07.052 --> 18:11.956 [SPEAKER_00]: I do not think the road will prove too hard for your courage, giving him a little bit of a boost here. 18:12.076 --> 18:20.603 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, hey, you're using like a courageous fellow, you aren't a regular hobbit, so I think you're going to be able to push through this, should everything work out. 18:21.383 --> 18:30.332 [SPEAKER_00]: But if you desire clear or counsel, you should ask Gandalf, and he turns the conversation to the topic of Gandalf in two different ways. 18:30.392 --> 18:36.818 [SPEAKER_00]: First, I'm sure he's curious as to where Gandalf is and why he's not with him right now if the situation seems so dire. 18:37.138 --> 18:37.779 [SPEAKER_00]: And secondly, 18:38.299 --> 18:54.142 [SPEAKER_00]: He's wise enough to know that Gandalf would know what's going on and would have advice that 100% matches the situation and because Gildor doesn't know all of the details, he knows that any advice he gives will not necessarily line up. 18:54.542 --> 19:03.446 [SPEAKER_00]: It could, and yeah, he's wise, but he knows deep down that if he doesn't have all the details, he might give him bad advice. 19:03.906 --> 19:06.787 [SPEAKER_00]: And he specifically says that he doesn't know the reason for their flight. 19:07.067 --> 19:13.530 [SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't know by what means his pursuers will assail him, Frodo in the group. 19:13.770 --> 19:16.851 [SPEAKER_00]: And then he specifically says that the Gandalf must know these things. 19:17.331 --> 19:35.505 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I suppose that you will see him before you leave the Shire, question mark, and for how to explain that he's been waiting for Gandalf, and he thought Gandalf would arrive before they left, and now that they're on the road, he was hoping that Gandalf would show up, but he's not here, and then he asks another question, should I wait for him? 19:35.525 --> 19:41.269 [SPEAKER_00]: And Gildor is silent, and then he says, I do not like this news. 19:42.090 --> 19:54.321 [SPEAKER_00]: that Gandalf should be late does not vote well, but it is said, do not meddle in the affairs of wizards for they are subtle and quick to anger the choice is yours to go or wait. 19:54.982 --> 20:06.933 [SPEAKER_00]: Now notice he doesn't give an answer, he simply says, I'm worried about this news, this doesn't seem like Gandalf, this feels like something happened and we don't know what. 20:07.493 --> 20:12.416 [SPEAKER_00]: And then he tells Frodo, the choice is yours, your decision is up to you. 20:12.436 --> 20:21.761 [SPEAKER_00]: I can't make this choice for you because again, he doesn't have the information Frodo has, and he also doesn't have the information that Gandalf has. 20:22.341 --> 20:24.522 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think there's another piece of this as well. 20:24.922 --> 20:30.185 [SPEAKER_00]: I think this is something that we all have to be careful about in our family lives and in our 20:34.327 --> 20:36.808 [SPEAKER_00]: hierarchy in situations. 20:37.228 --> 20:52.853 [SPEAKER_00]: You've got the parents who are more wise and knowledgeable than the children and you might have the grandparents or aunt and uncles or in a business setting, you might have somebody who's leading the company or somebody who's worked as the manager of a specific department for decades and they have a lot of institutional knowledge. 20:53.333 --> 21:15.897 [SPEAKER_00]: And there's this natural human instinct that when we know we are less knowledgeable, when we know we are looking up to someone and they share a perspective with us, they give us advice, we deposit more value on that even if the question about the advice isn't something that they are specifically known to be good or successful at. 21:16.257 --> 21:33.029 [SPEAKER_00]: The simply the fact that they are above us in that context, in a hierarchical sense, we tend to value their opinions more and might act on advice even if the advice isn't good and they don't have the knowledge that they would need in order to share that advice. 21:33.569 --> 21:56.676 [SPEAKER_00]: And the other thing that happens here is the more you spend time at the top of these power structures, the more you start to rely on your own gut because you think you got there out of your own effort, and the less you pay attention to other people's opinions, and on top of it, the more other people around you have a hard time telling you the truth because they don't want to upset you because of the power structure. 21:57.116 --> 22:04.825 [SPEAKER_00]: this is how you end up with CEOs of companies or leaders of nations who seem super disconnected from the average populace. 22:05.446 --> 22:07.208 [SPEAKER_00]: It's exactly that sort of thing that happens. 22:07.549 --> 22:13.976 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, that's a much more modern way of looking at this, for though like a psychological, I don't know, kind of world lens, but 22:14.657 --> 22:33.304 [SPEAKER_00]: Gildor is aware that he to the Hobbits is an authority, he's an elf, he's lived in this world for centuries, he is among a species of characters who are revered and treasured by the Hobbits as being good wise, powerful people. 22:33.664 --> 22:37.285 [SPEAKER_00]: So he knows whatever he tells Frodo here will be of 22:38.906 --> 22:45.408 [SPEAKER_00]: and he has to be careful with his words because he shouldn't be giving advice about things that he doesn't fully understand. 22:45.988 --> 22:51.830 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a really interesting perspective on this, and it's something that I think is really cool that Tolkien was aware of. 22:52.270 --> 23:03.333 [SPEAKER_00]: This dynamic in order to have a character say the wise thing and not give advice, which feels counterintuitive, but it totally makes sense in this context. 23:03.793 --> 23:05.394 [SPEAKER_00]: If only all of us were this wise. 23:05.970 --> 23:13.895 [SPEAKER_00]: And Frodo pushes back on this a little bit, he says it is also said go not to the elves for council, for they will say both no and yes. 23:14.355 --> 23:21.579 [SPEAKER_00]: And I have a feeling here that this is something that Tolkien has experienced in his own life, especially among academics, it's the Einsteinian bubble. 23:22.359 --> 23:24.440 [SPEAKER_00]: it's not actually a like physics thing. 23:24.520 --> 23:26.121 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a concept thing about knowledge. 23:26.461 --> 23:34.044 [SPEAKER_00]: The more knowledge you have, the more that total sum of knowledge has a surface area like a balloon that gets bigger. 23:34.164 --> 23:42.467 [SPEAKER_00]: So as the volume of knowledge inside the balloon increases, the surface area, the boundary of the things you know and the things you don't know also grows. 23:42.967 --> 23:52.211 [SPEAKER_00]: So smart and wise people tend to be more aware of the things that they don't know and are more likely to say, I'm not sure. 23:52.652 --> 23:54.192 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't have all the details yet. 23:54.632 --> 24:01.836 [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas oftentimes people who aren't so wise tend to be more sure of themselves and look wiser than they actually are. 24:02.316 --> 24:11.606 [SPEAKER_00]: Tolkien's basically speaking to that here with the elves, because the elves are old and wise enough to know that oftentimes the answer is both no and yes. 24:11.986 --> 24:13.247 [SPEAKER_00]: It depends on the details. 24:13.308 --> 24:14.429 [SPEAKER_00]: It depends on the context. 24:14.929 --> 24:15.870 [SPEAKER_00]: And Gilder laughs this off. 24:15.890 --> 24:17.051 [SPEAKER_00]: He says, is it indeed? 24:17.692 --> 24:25.939 [SPEAKER_00]: Elves seldom give unguarded advice for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill. 24:26.480 --> 24:37.690 [SPEAKER_00]: He's wise enough to know that not all advice is good, and he's wise enough to know that sometimes things just don't work out the way you would predict them to, and isn't that the truth? 24:38.070 --> 24:40.751 [SPEAKER_00]: And he specifically tells Frodo that you haven't told me all the details. 24:40.791 --> 24:43.311 [SPEAKER_00]: So how would I even be able to choose better than you? 24:43.731 --> 24:46.231 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know all the variables that are involved. 24:46.271 --> 24:48.632 [SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't use the word variables, but that's what he's thinking, right? 24:49.272 --> 24:50.912 [SPEAKER_00]: And then he caves. 24:51.272 --> 25:04.155 [SPEAKER_00]: He says, but if you demand advice, I will for friendship sake give it as just kind of a, hey, okay, well, I can give you this one thing because I care and I want you to be safe. 25:05.995 --> 25:13.747 [SPEAKER_00]: I think you should go at once without delay, and if Gandalf does not come before you set out, then I also advise this. 25:14.388 --> 25:15.970 [SPEAKER_00]: Do not go alone. 25:16.431 --> 25:20.156 [SPEAKER_00]: Take such friends as our trustee and willing. 25:20.877 --> 25:27.482 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is genius advice because this advice works in the context of what Guildor does know. 25:27.862 --> 25:30.344 [SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't need to know specifically that there's a ring. 25:30.645 --> 25:41.033 [SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't need to know specifically what is happening to Gandalf, but he can tell that Frodo is not safe, so they need to go now and they need to stick together. 25:41.613 --> 25:43.775 [SPEAKER_00]: And that is fundamental. 25:44.115 --> 25:44.555 [SPEAKER_00]: It's simple. 25:44.876 --> 25:46.957 [SPEAKER_00]: You are not safe here, so keep moving. 25:50.580 --> 25:57.247 [SPEAKER_00]: pretty simple, but it absolutely makes a difference and it hits home one of the big themes in these books. 25:57.807 --> 26:12.843 [SPEAKER_00]: This idea that nobody can do this alone, that we are only strong when we come together when we break down the boundaries, when we side with each other for mutual good, is when we are strongest. 26:13.403 --> 26:16.344 [SPEAKER_00]: and the very nature of evil is that it divides us. 26:16.925 --> 26:18.185 [SPEAKER_00]: That's how evil works. 26:18.725 --> 26:21.987 [SPEAKER_00]: And then Gilder gives us a little bit more insight into what's happening with the elves. 26:22.027 --> 26:29.530 [SPEAKER_00]: He says, the elves have their own labors and their own sorrows, and they are a little concerned with the ways of Hobbits, or of any other creatures upon Earth. 26:29.910 --> 26:33.592 [SPEAKER_00]: Our paths cross theirs, seldom, by chance, or purpose. 26:34.272 --> 27:01.339 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, this doesn't give you the sense of like, of the, the elves have been watching the Hobbits, and he's saying, basically, the elves in more of a greater larger sense, not just Gildor in his people or the people of Rivendell, that the elves in general are consumed by some other difficulties and things that are going on in their own society, and oftentimes don't pay enough attention to the other races. 27:03.940 --> 27:13.567 [SPEAKER_00]: and oftentimes in this case the paths cross seldom by chance or purpose, which leads into the idea of why he would have run into Bilbo. 27:13.948 --> 27:14.628 [SPEAKER_00]: Was that chance? 27:15.149 --> 27:16.009 [SPEAKER_00]: Or was that purpose? 27:16.069 --> 27:17.310 [SPEAKER_00]: Were they helping escort him? 27:17.851 --> 27:25.216 [SPEAKER_00]: Then he says, in this meeting there may be more than chance, but the purpose is not clear to me and I fear to say too much. 27:25.977 --> 27:31.001 [SPEAKER_00]: He has a sense that there is more going on that he is a part 27:32.842 --> 27:33.282 [SPEAKER_00]: picture. 27:33.722 --> 27:34.863 [SPEAKER_00]: A greater story. 27:35.243 --> 27:36.784 [SPEAKER_00]: Remember the timing of their meeting. 27:37.284 --> 27:44.228 [SPEAKER_00]: They were singing songs to Varda, exactly at the right moment to scare away that Nazgul. 27:44.988 --> 27:56.094 [SPEAKER_00]: Something feels coincidental about that, and anytime something feels coincidental in a novel, especially one of Tolkien's, there's a chance that it's part of the greater story, and that it's not just the characters 27:57.655 --> 28:03.107 [SPEAKER_00]: Fredo thinks gilder for the advice, but then says, I wish you would just tell me, what are these black writers? 28:03.769 --> 28:07.858 [SPEAKER_00]: And if I take your advice, I may not see Gand off in a long time. 28:08.883 --> 28:12.185 [SPEAKER_00]: I should probably know what these dangers are that are around me, right? 28:12.325 --> 28:13.245 [SPEAKER_00]: Wouldn't that be helpful? 28:13.705 --> 28:17.667 [SPEAKER_00]: And Guilder says, well, isn't it enough to know that they are just servants of the enemy? 28:18.107 --> 28:18.568 [SPEAKER_00]: Flea them. 28:19.028 --> 28:20.208 [SPEAKER_00]: Speak no words to them. 28:20.589 --> 28:21.789 [SPEAKER_00]: They are deadly. 28:22.229 --> 28:31.714 [SPEAKER_00]: And no more of me, but my heart forboats that, are all is ended you, Frodo's son of Drogo, will know more of these fellow things than Guildor in Glorion. 28:32.254 --> 28:33.555 [SPEAKER_00]: May Elbereth protect you. 28:34.382 --> 28:35.322 [SPEAKER_00]: And we know he's right. 28:35.522 --> 28:38.143 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, Frodo's like the main character of the story. 28:38.183 --> 28:43.885 [SPEAKER_00]: He's going to discover more about what happens here, but it doesn't feel great, right? 28:43.905 --> 28:47.747 [SPEAKER_00]: Now he feels like, oh, man, things are only going to get worse from here. 28:48.427 --> 28:49.867 [SPEAKER_00]: And Frodo seems to understand this. 28:49.967 --> 28:51.948 [SPEAKER_00]: He asks where he will find his courage. 28:52.568 --> 28:54.609 [SPEAKER_00]: And he says that that is what he chiefly needs. 28:55.651 --> 28:57.172 [SPEAKER_00]: and Gilder responds like this. 28:57.873 --> 28:59.975 [SPEAKER_00]: Courage is found in unlikely places. 29:00.215 --> 29:02.057 [SPEAKER_00]: Be of good hope, sleep now. 29:02.417 --> 29:07.102 [SPEAKER_00]: In the morning, we shall have gone, but we will send our messages through the lands. 29:07.662 --> 29:10.245 [SPEAKER_00]: The wandering companies shall know of your journey. 29:10.285 --> 29:17.191 [SPEAKER_00]: Notice he says wandering companies, this implies there's more groups than just Gilder wandering around seemingly with a purpose. 29:17.952 --> 29:20.894 [SPEAKER_00]: And those that have power for good shall be on the watch. 29:21.775 --> 29:35.382 [SPEAKER_00]: I name you, El friend, and may the stars shine upon the end of your road, seldom have we had such delight in strangers, and it is fair to hear words of the ancient speech from the lips of others wandering in the world. 29:36.362 --> 29:37.763 [SPEAKER_00]: And he actually does it here. 29:37.843 --> 29:41.425 [SPEAKER_00]: This gives me a sense of, okay, now you are reassuring. 29:41.445 --> 29:46.007 [SPEAKER_00]: You're not just telling Frodo that the world is terrible and there's scary things that are happening. 29:46.647 --> 29:52.730 [SPEAKER_00]: He closes the conversation with supportive words, saying that you are not alone. 29:53.230 --> 29:58.212 [SPEAKER_00]: There are others out there, and on top of it, you have been deemed by me a 30:03.995 --> 30:09.398 [SPEAKER_00]: that if you find elves out in the wild, or wherever, that we are on the same side. 30:09.838 --> 30:23.945 [SPEAKER_00]: And Gilder seems like the kind of guy who's connected, the kind of elf who would send word back to Elrond, or whoever else needed to know this information, but discreetly without revealing anything about a ring, because he doesn't even know anything about a ring. 30:24.365 --> 30:28.648 [SPEAKER_00]: It's also interesting to me that this conversation ends with Frodo falling asleep. 30:29.428 --> 30:37.595 [SPEAKER_00]: and the other characters are already asleep as if this is dreamlike, this is the world of the fairy, this is the fairy. 30:38.515 --> 30:41.058 [SPEAKER_00]: I bring that up a lot, but that's intentional. 30:41.678 --> 30:50.445 [SPEAKER_00]: The feeling that dealing with elves means that you are already moving out of the regular world that they kind of encapsulate 30:55.149 --> 30:58.332 [SPEAKER_00]: a little bit more dreamlike, and what happens when you wake up in the morning? 30:58.832 --> 31:02.615 [SPEAKER_00]: The dream disappears and you wonder how much of it was actually real to begin with. 31:03.115 --> 31:08.459 [SPEAKER_00]: And the chapter ends like this, Frodo felt sleep coming upon him even as Gildor finished speaking. 31:08.480 --> 31:17.907 [SPEAKER_00]: I will sleep now, he said, and the elf led him to a bower beside Pippin and he threw himself upon a bed and fell at once into a dreamless slumber. 31:34.219 --> 31:37.840 [SPEAKER_00]: So that ends chapter three on the bonus episode this week for the patrons. 31:37.960 --> 31:44.102 [SPEAKER_00]: I will be going over some of the things that people have brought up online about chapter three and some of their big questions. 31:44.522 --> 31:51.805 [SPEAKER_00]: And some of these things are things that I've hit on a little bit going through these episodes, but I'm going to dig a little bit deeper with those questions and get into that on the bonus episode. 31:51.845 --> 32:00.508 [SPEAKER_00]: So if you are in a part of the Patreon, you'd like to be and you'd like to get over 200 bonus episodes where I go even deeper into all of the lore, patreon.com slash LOTR 32:02.108 --> 32:10.517 [SPEAKER_00]: Also, you'll get shoutouts like our new members, Thomas Sight, Fingle Finn, the greatest of all the, oh, it's cut off here, the greatest of all the elves. 32:11.358 --> 32:13.480 [SPEAKER_00]: There's only so much room in the space I have to click on it. 32:14.181 --> 32:16.763 [SPEAKER_00]: Logan and Emmett, thank you so much for your support. 32:16.803 --> 32:21.048 [SPEAKER_00]: I hope you're enjoying the ad free content or the bonus episodes, depending on the tier that you signed up on. 32:21.468 --> 32:28.272 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll also give a shout out to all of our VIP patrons after I read out the two new reviews that came in in the last two weeks. 32:28.372 --> 32:33.374 [SPEAKER_00]: These are on Apple podcasts, so if you leave a five-star review on Apple, I'll read through them on future episode. 32:33.675 --> 32:40.358 [SPEAKER_00]: This one is from Tubbs Zero, who says, a slice of nostalgia, growing up I never enjoyed reading but love fantasy games. 32:40.398 --> 32:44.060 [SPEAKER_00]: And so when I came across the Hobbit in middle school, it was totally a game changer. 32:44.400 --> 32:50.584 [SPEAKER_00]: I brought forth my favorite game style and made everything that was boring to something very entertaining for a 12-year-old. 32:51.404 --> 32:55.726 [SPEAKER_00]: It's been years now since I've read those books, but I've always loved watching the movies here and there. 32:56.046 --> 33:03.530 [SPEAKER_00]: To hear you go in depth in more ways than I thought possible, makes the listen so intriguing, and I find that it really makes for a quick shift on the job. 33:03.970 --> 33:06.772 [SPEAKER_00]: I love the podcast and storytelling skills are so impressive. 33:06.912 --> 33:09.133 [SPEAKER_00]: I can't wait to delve into other podcasts you've done. 33:09.513 --> 33:11.154 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much, that is so kind of you. 33:11.554 --> 33:20.161 [SPEAKER_00]: Also, this one from FastDraw50 who says, best L-O-T-R podcast by far, I grew up watching the Lord of the Rings trilogy and have always loved it. 33:20.201 --> 33:29.628 [SPEAKER_00]: However, I found it difficult to read the various books because I have a short attention span, but robots keep expanding my knowledge and love of Tolkien's world with a simple and addictive storytelling. 33:29.968 --> 33:32.210 [SPEAKER_00]: I love this podcast and look forward to every episode. 33:32.230 --> 33:33.471 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for your efforts. 33:33.771 --> 33:34.311 [SPEAKER_00]: stay awesome. 33:34.331 --> 33:39.892 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you so much for you both taking the time to leave that review that helps more than you know. 33:39.912 --> 33:54.135 [SPEAKER_00]: Then in order to create content in this world, you have to play the games of the algorithms and all of that and believe me, I couldn't do this and keep doing this if it wasn't for people like you who were even just leaving reviews and rating the show. 33:54.495 --> 33:55.155 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much. 33:55.836 --> 33:57.376 [SPEAKER_00]: But speaking of those people, 33:57.976 --> 34:04.380 [SPEAKER_00]: Our shoutouts for our VIP patrons start with full-chrome, David S. Daniel Knightweaver, Kepena, Richard J. TJT, A.K. 34:04.400 --> 34:20.390 [SPEAKER_00]: Music Lover, Barney D. Asle Razzle, Blade of Andereal, Lori B. Norwegian Meier, Mason Weathertop, Divine Madman, Rosie Rosé, who on is my hero Aldarian was right, a very old party snacks, Artemis, Kira C. Doss S. Silverstar, Silver Hobbit, and my name is August West. 34:20.430 --> 34:21.931 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for your continued support. 34:22.191 --> 34:23.752 [SPEAKER_00]: Alright, I'm going to go do a bonus episode. 34:23.812 --> 34:26.814 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll see those if you all who are a part of that on the other side. 34:27.314 --> 34:34.707 [SPEAKER_00]: Stay safe out there, and if you're being surrounded and tracked by a bunch of black riders, it's probably not a good thing, right? 34:35.067 --> 34:35.728 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe keep moving. 34:36.009 --> 34:36.389 [SPEAKER_00]: Keep moving. 34:36.570 --> 34:37.531 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a good advice. 34:38.112 --> 34:38.733 [SPEAKER_00]: Fredo, keep moving. 34:39.154 --> 34:39.535 [SPEAKER_00]: You'll make it. 34:39.695 --> 34:40.016 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't worry. 34:40.657 --> 34:41.418 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, see you later. 34:43.914 --> 34:46.036 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to the Lord of the Rings lorecast. 34:46.656 --> 34:50.219 [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like to learn more about other fantasy worlds, check out my other podcasts. 34:50.659 --> 34:55.003 [SPEAKER_00]: The Elder Scrolls lorecast, the Witcher lorecast, and more, at robotsradio.net. 34:55.483 --> 34:57.325 [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like to reach out, I'd love to hear from you. 34:57.825 --> 35:04.490 [SPEAKER_00]: Send me a note on Twitter at robots underscore radio, or join our amazing community on the robots radio discord. 35:04.891 --> 35:10.635 [SPEAKER_00]: There are links in the show notes, or just search robots radio discord, or find the link on robotsradio.net. 35:10.895 --> 35:11.616 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll see you next time.