WEBVTT 00:07.445 --> 00:08.706 [SPEAKER_00]: and welcome to our show. 00:08.986 --> 00:11.308 [SPEAKER_00]: The shit no one tells you about writing. 00:12.049 --> 00:20.875 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm best selling author Bianca Morey, and I'm joined by CC Lira of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of PS Literary. 00:21.935 --> 00:25.438 [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome everyone to a very special episode of our podcast. 00:25.598 --> 00:29.221 [SPEAKER_01]: We have with us a incredibly special guest. 00:29.361 --> 00:32.443 [SPEAKER_01]: I am so excited to introduce a Rachel Hockhouser. 00:33.043 --> 00:35.085 [SPEAKER_01]: author of a lady for Maine. 00:35.585 --> 00:38.007 [SPEAKER_01]: Rachel grew up in Santa Barbara, California. 00:38.067 --> 00:44.232 [SPEAKER_01]: She attended New York University and earned a master's in professional writing from the University of Southern California. 00:44.792 --> 00:48.055 [SPEAKER_01]: Currently, she lives in Portland, Oregon with her husband and two daughters. 00:48.715 --> 01:11.312 [SPEAKER_01]: and Lady Tremaine is her first novel which I will say right now sounds unbelievable to me because it is one of my all-time favorite novels I read it this year and at first I was like oh my god this is my favorite book of the year and then I realized that I loved it so much that now it's not just my favorite book of the year but it's officially joined the roster of one of my favorite ever so welcome Rachel. 01:11.887 --> 01:13.148 [SPEAKER_02]: What a wonderful welcome. 01:13.188 --> 01:13.728 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. 01:14.368 --> 01:18.150 [SPEAKER_02]: This is news to me too, so I'm sitting over here grinning. 01:18.870 --> 01:21.831 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it is much to serve because your book is amazing. 01:21.851 --> 01:25.473 [SPEAKER_01]: Your novel is amazing, but we're going to begin with putting you on the spot. 01:25.973 --> 01:29.855 [SPEAKER_01]: You mentioned that you listen to the podcast, so this will probably not be a surprise for you. 01:30.015 --> 01:37.038 [SPEAKER_01]: Rachel, if you are an elevator, unagentant, unpublished and a publishing professional where to ask you, hey, what's your novel 01:40.744 --> 02:09.040 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I would have before going through the whole publishing journey, I probably would have pitched it very differently so I would learn a lot and it's it's hard for me to remember how I talked about the book now I'm very used to talking about the book, but if I were to meet someone this afternoon in an elevator, I would probably say it's an untalling of Cinderella not a retelling and I use that word really specifically from the point of view of this so-called evil stepmother and 02:10.059 --> 02:16.142 [SPEAKER_02]: Typically I can just leave it at that or we can kind of pick up some threads and unravel things a bit. 02:16.702 --> 02:29.247 [SPEAKER_02]: But you know sometimes I like to talk about that there's a falconry storyline that it's a it's a love story but not just about romance it's you know familiar love and others love love between friends and women. 02:29.507 --> 02:31.588 [SPEAKER_02]: The book I think is is very layered. 02:32.128 --> 02:32.328 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm. 02:32.588 --> 02:34.009 [SPEAKER_01]: It's definitely very layered. 02:34.109 --> 02:36.390 [SPEAKER_01]: I think, well, first of all, that was an amazing pitch. 02:36.450 --> 02:38.591 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so curious to know how you used to pitch it. 02:38.651 --> 02:40.032 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm very sad, you don't remember. 02:40.052 --> 02:43.733 [SPEAKER_01]: It would be really interesting exercise to compare the two pitches. 02:44.353 --> 02:58.880 [SPEAKER_01]: I think Amelia Hart, author of Wayward, put it best when she said, Rachel unpicks this old fairy tale and weaves it into a feminist work or I, like, it's so beautiful, like such a wonderful way to describe your book. 03:01.970 --> 03:04.291 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and that was one thing that came later. 03:04.411 --> 03:16.615 [SPEAKER_02]: I got that from one of my many conversations along the way, but I think the lady trimming is so much more than a villain or a gen story, or it became more than that, as I was writing. 03:16.675 --> 03:21.257 [SPEAKER_02]: I realized there was so much about the Cinderella fairy tale that I wanted to 03:22.047 --> 03:29.034 [SPEAKER_02]: undo, so to speak, and then reframe, and think through, especially as the mother of two little girls myself. 03:29.134 --> 03:37.262 [SPEAKER_02]: So, the book is not just, you know, Lady Chamaine's story, it's kind of a re-examination of this Cinderella myth itself. 03:37.798 --> 03:42.943 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah I love that you put it like that and I love that part of the inspiration came from having two daughters. 03:43.103 --> 03:55.796 [SPEAKER_01]: Take us back like how did you decide to write this book and I know you wouldn't have pitched them this way but did you always know it was going to be tied to the Cinderella story and from the evil stepmother's POV was that always the intention? 03:56.249 --> 03:57.370 [SPEAKER_02]: it was very much. 03:57.450 --> 04:10.645 [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't depends on how far back you want to go, but I had written a whole other book and failed to publish it, failed to get representation and poured years of my life into this project. 04:11.386 --> 04:14.490 [SPEAKER_02]: It was like what I worked on in grad school and for years afterwards. 04:14.970 --> 04:20.354 [SPEAKER_02]: So I had actually quit writing pretty dramatically before going to the lady Schwantin. 04:20.374 --> 04:23.196 [SPEAKER_02]: I was pouring my creative energy into other projects. 04:23.496 --> 04:32.162 [SPEAKER_02]: And then in 2023, I hadn't sat at my desk not literally, but I hadn't sat at my writing desk for five or six years or so. 04:32.502 --> 04:38.827 [SPEAKER_02]: And I had an 18-month old daughter and my husband out of the blue became really unexpectedly ill. 04:39.227 --> 04:41.968 [SPEAKER_02]: And we found out he had a brain abscess. 04:42.008 --> 04:47.870 [SPEAKER_02]: He was rushed into emergency brain surgery and it was a grueling many months long recovery. 04:47.890 --> 04:52.991 [SPEAKER_02]: So we were spending a lot of time in the hospital system here in Portland. 04:53.232 --> 04:58.593 [SPEAKER_02]: But also, you know, even outside of the hospitals, it was, it was just hard. 04:58.613 --> 05:01.434 [SPEAKER_02]: I was effectively single parent for a number of months. 05:01.554 --> 05:02.755 [SPEAKER_02]: I was caretaking for him. 05:02.815 --> 05:03.795 [SPEAKER_02]: I was trying to work. 05:04.757 --> 05:10.983 [SPEAKER_02]: And in one of those hours in the hospital, I was scrolling on my phone, trying to distract myself as you do. 05:11.003 --> 05:15.707 [SPEAKER_02]: And I came across a depiction of Cinderella's evil stepmother. 05:15.827 --> 05:19.650 [SPEAKER_02]: And I recognized her immediately from my own childhood. 05:19.670 --> 05:20.871 [SPEAKER_02]: It was so visceral. 05:20.911 --> 05:22.313 [SPEAKER_02]: But she, I learned she had a name. 05:22.353 --> 05:25.035 [SPEAKER_02]: And I never heard her name before Lady Truman. 05:25.075 --> 05:27.337 [SPEAKER_02]: And it was, you know, something about that. 05:27.848 --> 05:31.390 [SPEAKER_02]: help very irresting to me and stop me and my tracks. 05:31.610 --> 05:42.475 [SPEAKER_02]: And then I was sitting there in this context of my own sacrifice and I thought, which is not a villain motivated by harming someone or even self-interest. 05:42.495 --> 05:45.257 [SPEAKER_02]: She's just trying to take care of her children, her daughters. 05:46.057 --> 05:50.582 [SPEAKER_02]: and I related to that so much and I thought this would be, this is a story. 05:50.602 --> 05:52.785 [SPEAKER_02]: Why hasn't anyone ever told this story before? 05:53.405 --> 06:04.938 [SPEAKER_02]: So it was, it felt like it was, it was like my creative brain and my personal life and my, you know, desire to write and publish a book from so many years before 06:07.000 --> 06:11.422 [SPEAKER_02]: The project ended up being, you know, what kind of helped me get through that time period. 06:11.442 --> 06:16.344 [SPEAKER_02]: My husband's doing so much better, you know, we knew as soon as we knew everything was going to be fine. 06:16.384 --> 06:20.265 [SPEAKER_02]: I sort of, that was, became my me time was sitting down to write whenever I could. 06:20.865 --> 06:22.866 [SPEAKER_02]: And so that was really the origin of, 06:23.558 --> 06:24.118 [SPEAKER_02]: like a train. 06:24.138 --> 06:27.760 [SPEAKER_02]: So the success of the book is so personal to me, every book is personal. 06:27.780 --> 06:37.086 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you spend so much time with it, but it's connected to, you know, what I had deemed as an earlier failure of my own writing career, it's connected to that time of my life. 06:37.566 --> 06:42.148 [SPEAKER_02]: It's now the story I want to share with all little girls, especially my own two little girls. 06:42.349 --> 06:46.231 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's it's deeply personal and, you know, an extension of me. 06:46.951 --> 07:00.394 [SPEAKER_01]: I am so sorry you went through that and it sounds incredibly inspiring to hear that you you took that pain and you channeled it into your art and who is the story that's very thought-provoking but also very entertaining, very fun. 07:00.434 --> 07:03.715 [SPEAKER_01]: Like the story's engine is just unput downable. 07:04.395 --> 07:04.915 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. 07:04.955 --> 07:11.016 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, I'm very happy I was able to use that time and turn it into something productive. 07:11.436 --> 07:14.897 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's a high bar for any future future challenges. 07:15.948 --> 07:19.770 [SPEAKER_01]: That's one way to look at it, or you could think of it as, hey, I know how to do this. 07:19.830 --> 07:20.451 [SPEAKER_01]: I can do it again. 07:20.871 --> 07:21.171 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 07:21.931 --> 07:23.332 [SPEAKER_01]: There's more than one way to look at it. 07:23.392 --> 07:26.034 [SPEAKER_01]: So I want to ask you about the structure of the story. 07:26.094 --> 07:31.657 [SPEAKER_01]: There's their chapters that are dedicated to the past and then their chapters that are dedicated to the present timeline. 07:31.817 --> 07:33.638 [SPEAKER_01]: Was it always in that structure? 07:33.758 --> 07:37.600 [SPEAKER_01]: Did you always have a clear sense of the framework for the book? 07:38.041 --> 07:40.282 [SPEAKER_01]: Or did you go through a few drafts before you found that? 07:40.925 --> 07:53.169 [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't go through a ton of drafts, but thinking through the structure from a plot standpoint, that was my weakest place as a writer, was figuring out plot and narrative structure. 07:53.469 --> 08:00.651 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I really used this book as a way to teach myself, some of those more elemental tools. 08:00.811 --> 08:02.351 [SPEAKER_02]: But I also, it was interesting. 08:02.411 --> 08:08.273 [SPEAKER_02]: I knew I wanted to go into the backstory because that was so much of the narrative justification of why 08:09.354 --> 08:11.895 [SPEAKER_02]: a so-called villain becomes the way that they are. 08:12.095 --> 08:17.776 [SPEAKER_02]: But a lot of books that do that can go back and forth through time they're doing that all the way until the end. 08:17.876 --> 08:21.597 [SPEAKER_02]: And I only had so much backstory that I kind of wanted to get myself to the midpoint. 08:22.077 --> 08:32.340 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's a little bit less traditional and that the first half of the book we're going back and forth at the time and then the second half is almost in some senses when the narrative begins from the, you know, action, so to speak. 08:32.820 --> 08:37.445 [SPEAKER_02]: And I was a little nervous about that because I felt like I was breaking some rules. 08:37.625 --> 08:44.831 [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I ultimately have come to think or realize that there are no rules in writing. 08:44.871 --> 08:48.094 [SPEAKER_02]: And if it works for you, then it's going to work for some readers. 08:48.194 --> 08:49.776 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's the whole point of this. 08:49.816 --> 08:50.757 [SPEAKER_02]: You need to do what you want. 08:51.197 --> 08:51.758 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. 08:51.838 --> 09:09.654 [SPEAKER_01]: And there might be patterns that are more commonly used, but as long as your execution can pull it off, as long as your talent is up to the task, then this book wouldn't have been a special if you had done back and forth, back and forth, back and forth until the end, because it would have been like, okay, we understood how she got there to the midpoint climax, and then 09:10.495 --> 09:13.737 [SPEAKER_01]: That's when the present storyline I guess had to take over. 09:14.237 --> 09:18.759 [SPEAKER_01]: So when you were creating her as a character, you said that you struggled with plot and with structure. 09:18.819 --> 09:21.241 [SPEAKER_01]: I imagine that character came more naturally to you. 09:21.901 --> 09:25.243 [SPEAKER_02]: That was really all I had to go off of in the beginning. 09:25.323 --> 09:29.385 [SPEAKER_02]: As I had this idea for the book and my starting place was I just sat down to write and 09:29.965 --> 09:30.966 [SPEAKER_02]: her voice came to me. 09:31.566 --> 09:33.847 [SPEAKER_02]: The book is written and first person. 09:33.967 --> 09:40.830 [SPEAKER_02]: So it really started with a few lines in her voice and I expanded and expanded from there. 09:40.890 --> 09:48.693 [SPEAKER_02]: So I wrote my way into the story from her voice and imagining who she was in her life. 09:48.993 --> 09:53.875 [SPEAKER_02]: Then when I was about a third of the way and I realized that I needed to sit down and really plot out the book. 09:53.915 --> 09:54.215 [SPEAKER_02]: So it was 09:54.715 --> 09:58.277 [SPEAKER_02]: I started out as a pantser and I ended up becoming a platter. 09:58.297 --> 10:01.660 [SPEAKER_02]: So you know, sort of a blend between the two methods. 10:01.720 --> 10:08.624 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that was really nice for me because I was able to figure out the kind of emotional heart of the book and who the characters were. 10:08.704 --> 10:14.328 [SPEAKER_02]: But then, you know, before I got too far into that, went back and layered up on some structure on top of that. 10:14.763 --> 10:15.163 [SPEAKER_01]: got it. 10:15.684 --> 10:17.005 [SPEAKER_01]: And what about other characters? 10:17.025 --> 10:27.393 [SPEAKER_01]: Specifically, I'm really curious to know how you related to Ellen from the very first draft, because to me at least as a reader, she was an infuriating character in the beginning. 10:27.773 --> 10:29.555 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, and I'm sure that was intentional. 10:29.575 --> 10:33.498 [SPEAKER_01]: We were supposed to be, was it supposed to feel quite frustrated by her behavior? 10:34.178 --> 10:43.286 [SPEAKER_01]: At the same time, though, because of things that happened in the story, and obviously no spoilers, my opinion of her change, and my outlook of her change, and obviously so did Lady Traemains. 10:43.647 --> 10:49.532 [SPEAKER_01]: Was that transformation something you were like, I'm going to set up to do that, or did the character take over? 10:50.170 --> 10:51.250 [SPEAKER_02]: He was a little bit of both. 10:51.530 --> 11:00.472 [SPEAKER_02]: I think my frustration with the Ellen character, as is probably the readers, is my frustration was Cinderella, the chroup and a lot of ways. 11:00.932 --> 11:04.093 [SPEAKER_02]: But I also have a lot of empathy for her character. 11:04.113 --> 11:08.414 [SPEAKER_02]: So I didn't want her to not have her own character or journey. 11:08.474 --> 11:10.235 [SPEAKER_02]: So that hurt was really intentional. 11:10.355 --> 11:16.176 [SPEAKER_02]: And where her character came from, I was, I didn't want to be so obvious if we're making the villain good. 11:16.236 --> 11:16.436 [SPEAKER_02]: I think 11:16.716 --> 11:24.245 [SPEAKER_02]: but that's an over-simplification, but for the sake of conversation, for making the villain good, I didn't want to go and make Cinderella bad. 11:24.265 --> 11:26.788 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, that would just be too much flipping. 11:26.988 --> 11:31.213 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, too much of a role reversal and a little too expected, not very interesting to me. 11:31.673 --> 11:34.437 [SPEAKER_02]: But I was thinking about what is Cinderella known for? 11:34.477 --> 11:35.578 [SPEAKER_02]: What does she represent to me? 11:35.598 --> 11:37.040 [SPEAKER_02]: And the first thing was passivity. 11:37.520 --> 11:39.401 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, she doesn't even get herself to the ball. 11:39.441 --> 11:41.943 [SPEAKER_02]: She's wrong there by the very godmother. 11:42.323 --> 11:44.544 [SPEAKER_02]: And then the second thing was being nice. 11:44.584 --> 11:49.267 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, every version of Cinderella talks about how nice and good this character is. 11:49.728 --> 11:56.612 [SPEAKER_02]: So I thought what happens when you push those to their logical extreme, you know, the the passivity becomes passive aggression. 11:57.087 --> 12:01.092 [SPEAKER_02]: the niceness becomes someone so nice they're annoying, you know, it's almost an insincere. 12:01.112 --> 12:04.997 [SPEAKER_02]: I think we all probably know someone who's so nice it does not feel genuine. 12:05.037 --> 12:16.170 [SPEAKER_02]: So she ultimately is a symbol of, you know, all those feminine traits that are so prescriptive and Cinderella just just pushed to the max, you know, the volume is turned up a little too high. 12:17.312 --> 12:17.892 [SPEAKER_02]: interesting. 12:18.212 --> 12:30.575 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so one of the things I love about your book as someone who has a podcast as an agent who very much believes in encouraging the writing community to work on their craft is that it's some masterclass and like all the techniques. 12:30.595 --> 12:40.757 [SPEAKER_01]: Listeners, if you are paying attention and you've taken any course with me or if you've attended any of our deep dives, literally there is an single technique that you can't learn from this book. 12:40.777 --> 12:42.938 [SPEAKER_01]: It is really impressive from creating 12:47.419 --> 12:48.600 [SPEAKER_01]: How did you learn this? 12:48.660 --> 12:51.223 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, how did you write with the flare of a novelist? 12:51.243 --> 12:54.046 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, is it innate that you study books? 12:54.106 --> 12:55.768 [SPEAKER_01]: Did you study craft? 12:55.828 --> 12:56.989 [SPEAKER_01]: How did you get there? 12:57.570 --> 13:03.935 [SPEAKER_02]: you're making my eye browser raising into my inch as you speak, um, it's, it's well deserved which is truly amazing. 13:04.015 --> 13:05.296 [SPEAKER_02]: It really is amazing. 13:05.797 --> 13:06.698 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a blend of things. 13:06.738 --> 13:12.002 [SPEAKER_02]: The the biggest thing that impacts my writing is reading. 13:12.723 --> 13:15.665 [SPEAKER_02]: I, you know, I grew up reading so so much. 13:15.685 --> 13:23.292 [SPEAKER_02]: So I, I always feel like I have an internal metronome for pace and rhythm, both at a sentence level. 13:23.312 --> 13:24.933 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's really what came first for me. 13:25.637 --> 13:52.691 [SPEAKER_02]: But now more so, you know, applying that to thinking about character development and plot and where you're starting to lose the reader, and then I think that reading also applies to workshops, so I've done a lot of workshopping, I, you know, was I studied creative writing as an undergrad, I went to grad school for it, I've, you know, self selected into workshops over the years, and and I actually think the value of workshop is not having your own work critique is critiquing others work. 13:53.287 --> 14:02.115 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's because it's so easy to see what's wrong or missing or working or clicking or not clicking when you have some distance from the work. 14:02.335 --> 14:07.941 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think you hone those skills, you know, working essentially edited other people's work. 14:07.981 --> 14:16.949 [SPEAKER_02]: Like really using every week of workshop to expand your own capabilities versus just, you know, the two weeks that you get where people are giving you feedback. 14:17.289 --> 14:28.595 [SPEAKER_02]: So I even think those those two weeks where you're getting feedback can be harmful in a way because you're getting, you know, eight people's different opinions about about your piece and maybe they conflict and whatnot. 14:28.795 --> 14:33.378 [SPEAKER_02]: So you know, it's a combination of a little bit of everything, but I also it was very hard wine. 14:33.718 --> 14:36.740 [SPEAKER_02]: It's really gratifying to hear you say that because it wasn't. 14:37.380 --> 14:46.207 [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't just sit down to write my first book and not get out of the park at all books that didn't ultimately gel or work as much as I tried. 14:46.627 --> 14:50.730 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we're big believers here, we say all the time, like the best creative writing instructor is reading. 14:51.110 --> 14:57.054 [SPEAKER_01]: Like reading, and yes, reading for fun, but also reading with a storyteller's eye dissecting what was happening. 14:57.234 --> 15:03.699 [SPEAKER_01]: So I rereading can actually be even more valuable sometimes because you're not distracted but you don't already know, you go back and you go, 15:04.179 --> 15:17.508 [SPEAKER_01]: This sentence over here, this was supposed to make me think that we were going left, but really this was misdirection, you know, the storyteller had had intentions all along, things like that, and Bianca is the one who's always saying what you just said about. 15:18.268 --> 15:21.450 [SPEAKER_01]: You should workshop, but you should do it to critique other people's works. 15:21.491 --> 15:27.855 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not that you can't share your own, that's wonderful, but too many people focus on, well, value am I getting thinking that. 15:28.535 --> 15:30.176 [SPEAKER_01]: notes on their work is the point. 15:30.236 --> 15:49.351 [SPEAKER_01]: But if you learn how to think critically about storytelling and doing that in a workshop is the really the best way, you will eventually be able to turn those lenses to your own work, which is of course so valuable, but speaking of workshopping and sharing your work tell us the story of how you matched with your agent and then how you matched with your editor. 15:49.695 --> 15:53.756 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, so my agent, it was a slow bird romance. 15:54.437 --> 15:59.338 [SPEAKER_02]: So I, okay, queried her years ago with my first book. 15:59.518 --> 16:03.980 [SPEAKER_02]: And I got the nicest rejection letter from her. 16:04.020 --> 16:07.821 [SPEAKER_02]: It was filled with feedback, and she was willing to take her other look down the line. 16:08.021 --> 16:12.043 [SPEAKER_02]: And it was clear she had so deeply engaged with the novel. 16:13.455 --> 16:32.110 [SPEAKER_02]: So I remember, of course, you never, you know, when you're creating any response from a agent, you don't forget, but when I went back around the second time with Lady Chamaine, a full, I don't know the math, but it was probably 12 years later in between initial querying, a lot of time had passed. 16:32.470 --> 16:37.314 [SPEAKER_02]: She had my agent, a list of Ruben, she had switched agency issues and then completely different place. 16:37.354 --> 16:39.295 [SPEAKER_02]: But of course, I was gonna query her again. 16:40.116 --> 16:51.303 [SPEAKER_02]: She answered me really quickly and said, I remember you, you know, send me the book, but I didn't hear back from her right away, you know, agents have, you know, well, a million things to read. 16:51.764 --> 17:08.194 [SPEAKER_02]: So when I got an offer of representation from a different agent, I was in, you know, the lucky position of being able to go back around to everyone I had queried and ended up with a few offers, but I ultimately went with Alyssa, not just because of the chemistry of the conversations we had 17:09.831 --> 17:11.672 [SPEAKER_02]: because I felt like she got what I was trying to do. 17:11.692 --> 17:12.533 [SPEAKER_02]: We got along. 17:12.593 --> 17:17.756 [SPEAKER_02]: But it was really because of that first letter, so many years before. 17:17.776 --> 17:24.140 [SPEAKER_02]: It just felt like Kizma and also the seeds of something had been planted. 17:24.481 --> 17:27.703 [SPEAKER_02]: And then we went out on submission shortly. 17:27.723 --> 17:29.444 [SPEAKER_02]: It didn't feel short to me. 17:29.564 --> 17:33.947 [SPEAKER_02]: But now that I understand publishing time lines and realizing it all happened really quickly. 17:34.627 --> 17:35.488 [SPEAKER_02]: Wait, how long? 17:35.548 --> 17:36.468 [SPEAKER_02]: Tell us how long? 17:40.266 --> 17:47.172 [SPEAKER_02]: It was March that I got the offer of representation and I signed my book deal on July. 17:47.272 --> 17:50.796 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm trying to think of the same year of the same year. 17:50.816 --> 17:53.418 [SPEAKER_01]: So, oh my god, Rachel, that's lightning speed. 17:53.638 --> 18:00.444 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yeah, I mean, this is why whenever we talk about Lady Tremaine's past of publication, you have to talk about the, you know, 15 years. 18:00.564 --> 18:01.325 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yes, you did it. 18:01.425 --> 18:01.806 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yes. 18:02.186 --> 18:04.628 [SPEAKER_02]: Because otherwise it just, it's too good to true. 18:05.048 --> 18:06.350 [SPEAKER_02]: So we went out on submission. 18:06.910 --> 18:15.177 [SPEAKER_02]: And it was slow, you know, the first couple of weeks, and then I got my first slew of rejections, which is so hard to get that round-up email. 18:16.018 --> 18:17.279 [SPEAKER_01]: What were these people thinking? 18:17.559 --> 18:20.021 [SPEAKER_01]: People, people, if you're rejected Rachel, what's wrong with you? 18:20.061 --> 18:20.902 [SPEAKER_01]: I say this with love. 18:21.202 --> 18:22.623 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, it's unacceptable. 18:23.524 --> 18:29.589 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that lady trimming is a really difficult book to categorize. 18:29.609 --> 18:33.592 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, even now, some people are shelving in fantasies, and some people are putting in historical 18:36.334 --> 19:01.474 [SPEAKER_02]: the truth is it's none of those things and because it's it's satin historical setting but it's not historically accurate it's not there's no actual fantasy in it although it is a fairy tale retelling and publishing I'm learning really likes to fit you know square pegs into square holes they like to to repeat they like you know similar to Hollywood they like formulas for what's 19:02.677 --> 19:06.659 [SPEAKER_02]: I think it can be a little, this is just my observation. 19:06.699 --> 19:12.782 [SPEAKER_02]: It might not be accurate, but maybe a little confusing to have something that you don't quite know to do us. 19:12.802 --> 19:17.565 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, that's my take now, but it was very hard to metabolize at the moment. 19:17.665 --> 19:24.068 [SPEAKER_02]: And then we started, then I got a preampt offer from Sarah Canton at St. Martin's press. 19:24.448 --> 19:28.991 [SPEAKER_02]: And she was, I mean, she, I could not think of a better champion for this book. 19:31.928 --> 19:36.732 [SPEAKER_02]: exactly, you know, how to position it in the market place. 19:37.273 --> 19:42.337 [SPEAKER_02]: And on top of, you know, all that business, incredible business thinking, she's an incredible editor. 19:42.417 --> 19:44.619 [SPEAKER_02]: So she's just a great thought partner as well. 19:44.899 --> 19:48.542 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I feel so lucky to have both in an editor. 19:48.562 --> 19:50.064 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm love working with her. 19:51.132 --> 20:04.536 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that it feels like both your matches were meant to be because obviously your story with Alyssa, like, as meant to be as it gets, come on, 12 years later after such a thoughtful rejection, her remembering you moving agencies like it absolutely was meant to be. 20:04.696 --> 20:07.878 [SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, I know enough about Sarah's taste because I'm such a fan of her books. 20:07.938 --> 20:10.939 [SPEAKER_01]: I actually started reading Lady Tremaine, not knowing it was a Sarah Canton book. 20:11.339 --> 20:13.579 [SPEAKER_01]: And then when I got to the acknowledgements, I was like, of course. 20:13.779 --> 20:15.320 [SPEAKER_01]: Like she just has the most amazing taste. 20:16.036 --> 20:30.026 [SPEAKER_01]: It just feels incredibly meant to be because I've spoken to her about your novel and I think she understands it in a way that speaks to the story's heart, which I imagine is what you're saying when you talk about the match that you guys had. 20:30.126 --> 20:41.954 [SPEAKER_01]: So was there like editorial feedback from either Alyssa or Sarah that you loved but also feedback that you were like, I'm not just sure about this one, talk to us about how how those edits went. 20:42.731 --> 20:47.274 [SPEAKER_02]: Sarah and I, and I should say a list of two, we're so in sync about the edits. 20:47.334 --> 20:50.816 [SPEAKER_02]: The edits were so light to be honest. 20:51.576 --> 20:58.720 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm now deep into editing my second book and I'm learning what an actual editing process more typically looks like. 20:59.020 --> 21:03.162 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think I was really lucky with Lady Triana. 21:03.182 --> 21:07.525 [SPEAKER_02]: I think it was pretty tight by the time it got to, you know, well, certainly. 21:07.585 --> 21:08.705 [SPEAKER_02]: That's not luck. 21:08.786 --> 21:10.026 [SPEAKER_01]: That's your hard work. 21:10.246 --> 21:11.107 [SPEAKER_01]: You had polished. 21:11.527 --> 21:15.749 [SPEAKER_02]: like, no, it's not like it's not necessarily as repeatable. 21:15.969 --> 21:22.512 [SPEAKER_02]: I think it helps in doing a retelling, right, because you have a narrative framework that exists that you're working with. 21:22.612 --> 21:27.154 [SPEAKER_02]: So there were some minor at it, you know, some titans and tweaks and things. 21:27.414 --> 21:36.258 [SPEAKER_02]: One piece of feedback that I not from Sarah or Alyssa, but we were talking about going to the UK and this did not end up happening with my UK editor, 21:37.702 --> 22:01.395 [SPEAKER_02]: UK agent and Alyssa thought maybe you might end up with a request to dial up the romance element for this audience and what do you want to do if that does happen and so I did I didn't actually have that feedback so that was but that was the close I got to you know getting ready to roll my sleeves and fight for something and when they mentioned the romance element between lady for main and I'm not going to name the character because I don't want spoilers. 22:02.247 --> 22:15.794 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I think for me it was really important to have the book and the way that it ends because of the point of the book so I didn't I didn't want to turn it into its own fairytale yet again. 22:15.854 --> 22:23.278 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I love the ending I think it's so satisfying and perfect and so that was one of the things I really wanted to fight for if it came down to it 22:24.087 --> 22:31.090 [SPEAKER_01]: I so agree, and I think that a story's beginning is incredibly important, like please don't get me wrong. 22:31.130 --> 22:33.931 [SPEAKER_01]: But a story's ending sells your next work. 22:33.951 --> 22:38.853 [SPEAKER_01]: When you finish a book and the ending is perfect, you're like, please, can I have your next book in me, Ali? 22:39.033 --> 22:49.618 [SPEAKER_01]: So, on the subject of endings, but also beginnings, the first line of your novel reads, I've been warned to be wary of strangers in the woods since I was a little girl. 22:50.935 --> 22:56.157 [SPEAKER_01]: And this book ends perfectly with the last line which I will not read because I consider that to be a spoiler. 22:56.197 --> 23:00.378 [SPEAKER_01]: But if you have read, you know what I'm talking about, was that always the case? 23:00.698 --> 23:08.000 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, did you, did you have an aha moment for that for that perfect mirroring between the very beginning and the very ending? 23:08.701 --> 23:11.845 [SPEAKER_02]: I did have the aha moment, but it wasn't when I started the book. 23:11.945 --> 23:17.833 [SPEAKER_02]: I wrote that I'm opening scene without having any idea of where and how the book was going to end. 23:18.514 --> 23:19.034 [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting. 23:19.455 --> 23:21.858 [SPEAKER_02]: But I really love mirroring and writing. 23:21.898 --> 23:27.145 [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's so satisfying for her reader and when I was thinking about that, 23:27.625 --> 23:36.809 [SPEAKER_02]: I knew I was sort of pushing towards some reverse image of some kind and then the last line of the book, which is my favorite line of the book came to me. 23:37.049 --> 23:42.272 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe when I was two thirds of the way through and I wrote towards it. 23:42.352 --> 23:45.793 [SPEAKER_02]: I was just waiting for the day where I could write it down and then write the end. 23:46.033 --> 23:54.137 [SPEAKER_02]: And I remember the moment that I did and it was sort of we actually switched point to view for the last line of the book. 23:56.138 --> 23:56.699 [SPEAKER_01]: because of that. 23:56.779 --> 24:03.223 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I had to think how I was going to do that because I knew what it was going to be, but I had to make it make sense in context. 24:03.283 --> 24:04.584 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think I pulled it off. 24:04.804 --> 24:16.132 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm, you know, I, it is a spoiler to say what it is, but I'm always like, well, that's, that's an Easter egg or, you know, yeah, I care it that we can dangle and you've got to finish the book to get there. 24:16.773 --> 24:17.253 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that. 24:18.112 --> 24:21.214 [SPEAKER_01]: That's incredibly exciting that you had that aha moment and wrote towards it. 24:21.274 --> 24:23.436 [SPEAKER_01]: Like that's such a good motivation too. 24:24.096 --> 24:25.337 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely love that story. 24:25.637 --> 24:32.862 [SPEAKER_01]: What advice would you have for most of our listeners are hoping to be exactly in your situation? 24:33.022 --> 24:37.605 [SPEAKER_01]: Agented with a fantastic editor, a book that's out that's getting a lot of buzz. 24:38.605 --> 24:42.688 [SPEAKER_01]: What advice would you have for people listening that want to follow in your footsteps? 24:43.390 --> 24:47.633 [SPEAKER_02]: think I mean it really depends on where you're at and you're writing journey. 24:47.713 --> 24:54.818 [SPEAKER_02]: I think, you know, you go through different phases where you learn more and more about what the process entails and what it takes. 24:54.999 --> 25:03.145 [SPEAKER_02]: I think if you're listening to this podcast, you're already getting all the great advice and learning everything you need to know. 25:03.645 --> 25:04.285 [SPEAKER_02]: That's what I did. 25:04.325 --> 25:06.007 [SPEAKER_02]: I was a listener of this podcast. 25:06.027 --> 25:10.890 [SPEAKER_02]: So I was I was consuming graciously information about the industry and how it works. 25:10.950 --> 25:10.970 [SPEAKER_02]: I 25:12.375 --> 25:15.396 [SPEAKER_02]: I still feel like an intern in a new industry in a really great way. 25:15.436 --> 25:19.097 [SPEAKER_02]: Like I'm learning things constantly and it's very fun. 25:19.117 --> 25:30.580 [SPEAKER_02]: If I said it was given to me early in my writing career that I did not take, but I think would have made a difference if I had was to attend actual workshops, like bread loaf and conference and not for... 25:31.737 --> 25:37.118 [SPEAKER_02]: the ability to work on your own projects, which I think is great, but for the networking. 25:37.979 --> 25:40.820 [SPEAKER_02]: Because that has been really surprising to me. 25:40.940 --> 25:47.421 [SPEAKER_02]: I had a very tiny writing network before publishing and it's growing now and that's been wonderful. 25:47.521 --> 25:49.462 [SPEAKER_02]: But I do think there's more to 25:50.359 --> 25:55.823 [SPEAKER_02]: who you know, I hate saying this because it, no, but makes everything sound exclusive. 25:56.443 --> 26:00.525 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like any other industry, you know, network game can make a difference. 26:00.546 --> 26:08.531 [SPEAKER_02]: And that counts for being introduced to agents, it counts also for, you know, when you do get a publishing deal of requesting plurbs, 26:09.440 --> 26:09.940 [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely. 26:10.020 --> 26:12.823 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's just you can start that way sooner than you think. 26:12.883 --> 26:30.698 [SPEAKER_02]: Just start connecting with other writers and, you know, supporting one another and going back to what I said earlier about workshopbing like that that's one way to be generous and also to get back, you know, offer to beta read and look at other people's work and you'll get the same and return and also you'll grow your skills as a as a writer while you're at it. 26:31.778 --> 26:32.299 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. 26:32.319 --> 26:33.480 [SPEAKER_01]: That is wonderful advice. 26:33.700 --> 26:34.861 [SPEAKER_01]: I I take your point about 26:35.302 --> 26:42.225 [SPEAKER_01]: not loving to say it because it can sound like exclusivity or like a, you know, like a clicky sort of thing. 26:42.305 --> 26:45.226 [SPEAKER_01]: But at the same time, we work in a deeply human industry. 26:45.386 --> 26:56.211 [SPEAKER_01]: And one of my central original motivations, when I joined the podcast and dedicated so much of myself to it, was I don't come from the literary world. 26:56.351 --> 27:00.353 [SPEAKER_01]: I got a whole different career in a whole different world before joining publishing. 27:00.413 --> 27:00.473 [SPEAKER_01]: And 27:01.013 --> 27:04.294 [SPEAKER_01]: And because of the podcast, I am able to ask for blurbs. 27:04.474 --> 27:12.896 [SPEAKER_01]: I am able to reach out to someone to ask, hey, I still remember I once had a client who was debating, taking two offers, and both offers were great. 27:13.476 --> 27:18.077 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, I'm just going to connect you to two authors, and the each are with a different editor. 27:18.297 --> 27:20.697 [SPEAKER_01]: And you just ask them a whole bunch of questions, okay? 27:21.118 --> 27:23.098 [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I did that, and it was amazing. 27:23.178 --> 27:26.459 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's silly things like that, but they're actually not silly at all. 27:26.499 --> 27:26.799 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you 27:27.539 --> 27:30.624 [SPEAKER_01]: It takes a village in so many ways, and this is a deeply human industry. 27:30.644 --> 27:35.011 [SPEAKER_01]: It's why AI won't replace us or are mantra over here. 27:35.131 --> 27:38.677 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, connecting with other humans is a big part of that. 27:38.877 --> 27:40.540 [SPEAKER_01]: And I love that you say that. 27:40.864 --> 27:44.606 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I think it's really important to specify to me. 27:44.826 --> 27:56.371 [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't net quote unquote network because in my mind that looks like seeing what literary events were going on in town and showing up alone and awkwardly trying to make small talk with someone and then having a go nowhere. 27:56.391 --> 28:00.933 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's not, I mean, that is networking I suppose, but you don't have to do it that way. 28:00.953 --> 28:04.315 [SPEAKER_02]: I think networking means getting involved in more ongoing ways. 28:04.355 --> 28:06.176 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe there's a literary journal on town. 28:06.912 --> 28:11.737 [SPEAKER_02]: It may be your volunteering for a writing, related non-profit. 28:12.137 --> 28:17.142 [SPEAKER_02]: I think networking was also paid opportunities, like paying to attend a workshop or join one. 28:17.162 --> 28:23.809 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just being in community with other writers or writing professionals of various kinds. 28:24.109 --> 28:29.615 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sensitive to it because I was sensitive to that advice, but I thought there's ways to do it within your comfort zone. 28:30.358 --> 28:31.299 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, absolutely. 28:31.339 --> 28:33.741 [SPEAKER_01]: And also within your means, there are free opportunities. 28:33.761 --> 28:47.533 [SPEAKER_01]: There are paid opportunities like so many things in life and it is actually quite wonderful once you do build that village that you can also give back and bring in newbies and be kind and gracious to them as people have been kind and gracious to you and that's wonderful. 28:47.753 --> 28:50.596 [SPEAKER_01]: I have to ask you this question, falconry. 28:51.056 --> 28:52.758 [SPEAKER_01]: How did the whole thing happen? 28:52.778 --> 28:56.441 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I read your acknowledgment, so I know that you did a little bit of research. 28:56.802 --> 28:58.083 [SPEAKER_01]: Was it always a part of the book? 28:58.383 --> 28:59.684 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's why I love this book so much. 28:59.724 --> 29:00.845 [SPEAKER_01]: There's so much protein. 29:00.885 --> 29:05.690 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, there's a million layers in this book that you've packed into something super-tent. 29:06.155 --> 29:18.440 [SPEAKER_02]: that if Alconry was always a part of the book, not that I sat down and thought I want to write a book about falconry, but I knew I was thinking through the element, the cliché elements of a villain, you know, animal sidekick comes in. 29:19.120 --> 29:22.782 [SPEAKER_02]: The Disney's animated lady Tramine has her cat. 29:23.382 --> 29:30.983 [SPEAKER_02]: And I thought I wanted, a lot of the book is having fun being in conversation with tropes in a reader's expectations. 29:31.003 --> 29:37.504 [SPEAKER_02]: So I knew I wanted her to have an animal counterpart of familiar, you know. 29:37.644 --> 29:45.066 [SPEAKER_02]: And I wanted it to be something the opposite of a cat, in a way, not some, you know, warm and fuzzy lap animal. 29:45.106 --> 29:49.727 [SPEAKER_02]: And I thought knowing the character as I was getting to know her, she would have an animal with utility. 29:52.478 --> 30:14.090 [SPEAKER_02]: symbol to represent, you know, who she was and what she was all about in her fierceness and prowess and I had had a tiny bit of experience with Falcons because in the middle of the pandemic I was staying at a hotel for a baby moon with my husband but that I just mean I was pregnant and it was the only thing we had done in months and there was nothing going on and the restaurant was closed and 30:14.790 --> 30:36.024 [SPEAKER_02]: They said, well we're having a falconry workshop for a half day if you want to pay us a million dollars and I was like I'll pay you two million dollars for this this strange falconry workshop that I never would have considered under other circumstances and I was really struck by the birds and then I didn't think about it again for a long time until I sat down to to write the book. 30:36.724 --> 30:45.229 [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, I, to me that's just a lesson in like life experience, you never know where it's going to lead you at my end up being a major threat of your novel. 30:46.170 --> 30:47.131 [SPEAKER_01]: That's so true. 30:47.291 --> 30:47.771 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that. 30:47.791 --> 30:48.852 [SPEAKER_01]: I love how surprising. 30:49.112 --> 30:50.613 [SPEAKER_01]: I love how everything comes together. 30:51.053 --> 30:55.916 [SPEAKER_01]: Like all these situations that, you know, we never thought in your past like from the 12 years ago with a lesson. 30:55.956 --> 30:57.977 [SPEAKER_01]: And now the falcon reign, you're at your baby moon. 30:58.457 --> 30:59.078 [SPEAKER_01]: That's amazing. 30:59.676 --> 31:02.598 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we will ask you the last question that I ask of all guests. 31:02.999 --> 31:04.780 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you please recommend us a book? 31:04.820 --> 31:13.467 [SPEAKER_01]: It can be a book that you've already read and loved, a book that you still have not read, but that's on your TBR, a book that you're reading, anything, but please do recommend a book. 31:13.487 --> 31:17.050 [SPEAKER_01]: So our listeners can just add even more books to their lists. 31:18.150 --> 31:19.191 [SPEAKER_02]: I love this question. 31:19.291 --> 31:25.596 [SPEAKER_02]: I am reading as much as I possibly can these days, right now I'm in the middle of Villa Coco, 31:28.443 --> 31:29.904 [SPEAKER_02]: the such a marvelous job. 31:29.924 --> 31:42.431 [SPEAKER_02]: I haven't finished it, and I typically don't recommend books until I finish them, but I am listening to this on audio, and I just have this silly grin on my face constantly whenever I'm listening to it. 31:42.611 --> 31:47.094 [SPEAKER_02]: The sentence level rating is just delightful filled with more souls. 31:47.534 --> 31:54.158 [SPEAKER_02]: And then another book I like to recommend is Porsche Elon's, I shouldn't, I need to check 31:57.800 --> 32:04.085 [SPEAKER_02]: homebound, which is a little bit like tomorrow into my own tomorrow meets cloud at least. 32:04.545 --> 32:05.166 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, wow. 32:05.186 --> 32:07.707 [SPEAKER_02]: Really mash up, but it's got an element. 32:07.767 --> 32:11.090 [SPEAKER_02]: It's, you know, just jumping around and time. 32:11.130 --> 32:16.053 [SPEAKER_02]: These huge jumps and there's a gaming element to it and the book is so much hard. 32:16.093 --> 32:17.114 [SPEAKER_02]: It's really beautifully done. 32:17.174 --> 32:21.097 [SPEAKER_02]: So both those two or the ones I'll go with, but there's about a hundred out there. 32:21.117 --> 32:22.438 [SPEAKER_02]: I could talk about this all day. 32:23.356 --> 32:26.499 [SPEAKER_01]: because you're a writer and all writers are voracious readers. 32:26.819 --> 32:28.461 [SPEAKER_01]: Rachel, thank you so much for joining us. 32:28.481 --> 32:29.622 [SPEAKER_01]: This list truly a pleasure. 32:29.882 --> 32:30.582 [SPEAKER_01]: Wait, where's your book? 32:30.602 --> 32:33.645 [SPEAKER_01]: So I can cheesely hold it up for our YouTube audience again. 32:34.246 --> 32:38.449 [SPEAKER_01]: If you haven't already, please check out Lady Tremaine and then you will thank me. 32:38.570 --> 32:42.553 [SPEAKER_01]: So instead of saying thank you to everyone who supports the book, I will say you're welcome. 32:42.773 --> 32:47.798 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm just giving you guys just really good advice here to read this book and thank you Rachel for joining us. 32:48.018 --> 32:49.019 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for having me. 32:49.620 --> 32:51.522 [SPEAKER_00]: and that's it for today's episode. 32:51.882 --> 32:55.405 [SPEAKER_00]: I hope you'll join us for next week's show, in the meantime, keep at it. 32:55.706 --> 32:58.028 [SPEAKER_00]: Remember, it just takes one yes.