[SPEAKER_01]: Here we are.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here we are, Quinn.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's us.
[SPEAKER_00]: I saw you last time here.
[SPEAKER_01]: You guys, we watched a scary movie last night.
[SPEAKER_01]: I showed Carrie mid-summer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Would you like to scare it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, she scared.
[SPEAKER_00]: You loved about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you think about it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you like lying bed?
[SPEAKER_01]: I was so tired.
[SPEAKER_00]: I went home and I washed my face and I went to bed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Look, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it took me a minute to go to bed.
[SPEAKER_00]: It did take me a minute to go to bed.
[SPEAKER_00]: I, that movie was so beautifully shot.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really beautiful.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think Florence Pew.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like haven't had a chance because I literally just left you less than nine hours ago and a lot of that time was sleeping and then panic Researching for the story that I'm gonna tell today.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I haven't had much time to sit with it, but it was
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's what I love.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, here's let me say what I did love about my experience was I've kept hearing how I need to see I need to see it, I need to see it, I need to see it and what was so fun is that I sought and it was so surprising.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I didn't totally know, I had someone had told me I think a horrible
[SPEAKER_01]: And now I'm trying to explain that movie in a few words.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so grateful for all the people in my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so grateful for all the people in my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: Who did not tell me what it was.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the cinematography makes you feel so unsettled in such an incredible way.
[SPEAKER_00]: The music, the like.
[SPEAKER_00]: And everything just feels wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: Use the moment one.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why are you high?
[SPEAKER_00]: Why are you drug when you say that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Music, mom.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, go.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if that's your best impression you have in your, in your belt.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if that's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't do accents or expressions.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're so funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can, you know what I love, Quinn?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what the best thing about you?
[SPEAKER_00]: Be a new.
[SPEAKER_00]: The best thing about you just can't even keep trying is that you're the best version of you is the you that I see right here
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I was asked to take my children to school today because Matt's not feeling.
[SPEAKER_01]: He isn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, guys, Quinn made an amazing meal yesterday too.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was sushi rice, bok choy, and some ahituna.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was delicious.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was killer.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was so good.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's our go-to with the ahit because we all love that.
[SPEAKER_01]: What how do you make it so much in my head?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not hard to make, but it's strange.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like you do like a tablespoon of mustard powder.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is because I was like, there was no taste.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you put the water on the mustard powder to like turn it into a mush, turn it into like a mush.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you add a little bit of rice vinegar.
[SPEAKER_01]: and a little bit of, well, maybe a lot of bit of soy sauce and then you let it sit in the fridge for at least an hour.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and then you run it through a sieve so that like it's not, because the mustard powder will like, you just so you just run it through a sieve and you kind of mush the mustard and let it go through so that it's not collecting little balls and then you let it sit in the fridge to develop flavor for at least an hour and then it's done, but it takes like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Two minutes to make.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not hard to go get mustard pads, but I got it on my list.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, whoah, yeah, you often will be like, I do not have mustard powder sitting on the shelf.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I always, it's really good.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really good.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I also with the tuna.
[SPEAKER_00]: I also make a pokeball.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'll do a spicy tuna with a little rice and cucumber at a mommy things like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's not what you're gonna do with your lilac disease is what is what the vibe is But I got to go guys Quinn and I hung out it was like so incredible we actually saw each other in person It was amazing And we're gonna hang out on It's honestly it feels like singing I'll have I'll have like the country what is like get the fuck out of there
[SPEAKER_00]: Quinn is, I don't know, I'm to France on Sunday, and I was with the closeies, we'll part of the closeie crew.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it looks like you guys have a really fun trip.
[SPEAKER_00]: Although, Quinn, do you want to talk about how angry you are about your, your, your entrance into the, the French life?
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll spell.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it was just a little bit of a bait and switch.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I can't blame them for what has happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's an idea was that like, my friends were already being Paris and they were like, just you'll land at six and we won't take a train away from Paris till 1230.
[SPEAKER_01]: But don't worry, we have a hotel and you'll just come to the hotel and nap while we have breakfast.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, great.
[SPEAKER_01]: And now they're like, it's going to be 103 degrees in Paris.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are actually going to go to the C shore, which still won't make sense for you to come to our hotel.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, damn it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Julia sent me like a hotel next while she's yeah she's good mom.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she sent me a hotel that is next to the train station we're departing from.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like a five minute walk into the train station and they they don't run it hourly but they do a thing where for eighty five dollars you can have the room from like eight thirty or nine to two in the afternoon and I only need it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I need it from like nine a noon so I'm gonna go take like a three hour nap.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I'm then I'm just going to stay up all day to try and I'll be exhausted, but I think it will help me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would like I can sleep on the train.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a long train ride, maybe like three hours, but.
[SPEAKER_01]: kind of love a train ride, too, so I'm like, do I want to miss it?
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're still taking the train together to my knowledge, although who knows who knows what we'll get pulled out.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I am staying in Saint-Remy to
[SPEAKER_01]: Rammul, Castellaine, and then Antibes with Razi, and then Nees.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is gonna be so fun, Quinn.
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you so excited?
[SPEAKER_01]: It'll be very pretty.
[SPEAKER_00]: How much cheese are you ready to consume?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's my question to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: The cheese, we have to ask you a question.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did a little arts and crafts project.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's pretty weird, but I was feeling weird.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there was a woman in our neighborhood getting rid of styrofoam heads, a lot of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Matt was like, we need all of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, yeah, yeah, we do.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we put them in the basement.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, what are these four?
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, I don't know, but I know we need styrofoam heads.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, totally.
[SPEAKER_01]: So then, um, the swarries happening and I was like, I think I'm going to take one of the styrofoam heads and turn it into, like, our math disco mascot.
[SPEAKER_01]: Art disco mascot.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, it varies.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to be more scared from this or from mid-Summer last night.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hi.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it in, it's in, it's in plastic.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's terrifying.
[SPEAKER_00]: Quinn, I don't,
[SPEAKER_00]: What the fuck, Quinn, did you spray spray paint of her gold, do you like her eyes are a little disco ball?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's terrifying, she has a disco heart.
[SPEAKER_00]: She has a little disco hat, she's fancy, she looks ill.
[SPEAKER_01]: So don't you think I put her on the, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: She looks like she's dying, it's this spray paint, some of the styrofoam got wet, so it looks like it's decaying.
[SPEAKER_00]: And her eyes are popping out like she has the thyroid issue.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right it was raped me and it spirited eating into the styrofoam.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she does look like she's being eaten a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: I you have to bring her because you've put you're in it and you're in a crazy cookie mood.
[SPEAKER_00]: But this makes me go it's quinoa okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: The bait this makes me feel.
[SPEAKER_01]: You think if I give her lip?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'll be better.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that might be scarier than I thought when you pulled her out that she was covered in plastic wrap and I was like, this is a head, this is
[SPEAKER_00]: You got it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god.
[SPEAKER_00]: Quinn, let's go.
[SPEAKER_00]: What is, what did, what did your family say?
[SPEAKER_00]: What did anybody says?
[SPEAKER_00]: Has you, have you showed anybody that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: This feels like maybe what do we want to name her?
[SPEAKER_01]: Estelle, I think Estelle, like, star.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're going to, you're going to France?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Estelle, Oh, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, she's beautiful.
[SPEAKER_00]: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I am not, well, I'm beholding.
[SPEAKER_00]: I will take her to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll take a photo of us with her at the party.
[SPEAKER_00]: And let's try it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we're going to dance with her.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's going to be looking at me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Booey her in the air.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or like a spell.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm stick her head on a pike.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's normal adult behavior relax everyone calm down.
[SPEAKER_00]: really, really, really.
[SPEAKER_00]: Quinn yesterday was a real pal and went through all of my newly rentals and gave me some advice, some hard truths and things I needed to hear and I think we're going to be better for it and I'm looking forward to these clothes coming in and seeing if any of them work and we'll go from there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we have to, and that's the thing is we have to.
[SPEAKER_00]: Who's gonna, I think, you do it because we did 282 last yesterday.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think we do 283.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when it's odd, he has to remember when it's a odd number, you go first.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not that weird if I if I go because what I was what I was gonna say was you're so odd So you go first all I said was if it's an odd number you go for spoke both of us Put in the reasoning behind it and we were both anyway When it's too early is it?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what's happening by the way You're listening to truly
[SPEAKER_01]: 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4
[SPEAKER_00]: Quinn had this idea, you guys, that we were gonna do a full GLP one commercial and then be like, psych, but here's, but here's the thing, and you can't even joke about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't even, here he goes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why don't we just make a fake commercial that talks about how great people should have.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Quigos, that's not funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I said I wish that I was recorded because that feels like a pretty true accurate state, but hey, listen,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep, he'll pee one ads.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're like, do you want to get skinny fast?
[SPEAKER_01]: We haven't done a ton of research yet, but this does seem to work.
[SPEAKER_01]: Probably some weird side effects, but how bad do you want to be skinny?
[SPEAKER_01]: Pretty bad, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: We live in America.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's pretty important to be skinny.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everybody cares and everybody's judging you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Take it now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like don't you just wish they were like, let's level with them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm surprised how many celebrity endorsements are doing it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that to me is like, it's so many celebrities.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now I can't listen to this as me without going, we go V.
[SPEAKER_00]: because they use the same melody, it's everywhere, and, you know, here's the deal, I have said it once I'll say it before, is we all live in the same world.
[SPEAKER_00]: Quinn's strategy is for everybody to do less so that she can look beautiful because if everybody does nothing, we will win.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the thing is it's,
[SPEAKER_01]: The strategy's not working.
[SPEAKER_01]: No one will jump on this bandwagon with me.
[SPEAKER_01]: They do nothing bandwagon.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, I'm being castigated at drinks with moms.
[SPEAKER_00]: Which, by the way, when you go to Paris, I actually have things I need you to purchase me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, it will reimburse you, but I've things I need you to purchase me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Purchase for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, yeah, we'll see.
[SPEAKER_01]: It depends on this.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're just too little.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm traveling a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know it would be the last place.
[SPEAKER_00]: You dummy.
[SPEAKER_00]: You think I'm gonna make you go like to Paris?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like there'd be a pharmacy before the airport.
[SPEAKER_00]: But here's the deal.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you want some French pharmacist shit is amazing and cheap and actually you would like it because it's actually, yes, there's like a retinal that they use there that's over the counter that's cheap, that's good for your skin and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like I'll help you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll tell you it and you'll see if you wanna buy it or not.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: But wait, I only want to say wait, all right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wait, so I do want to say one thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Quinn, what the fuck are we going to say?
[SPEAKER_00]: You've already suffered extreme things.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when I want to be a little 17th, okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to be a little naughty 17th.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was going to say we all live in a world and I don't want to shame anyone for doing anything that makes them feel better because we live in a society that encourages us to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't want to also like, the moon or make anyone feel who's doing those things judge anyone.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I think that's also just as bad.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I just want to say, you do you, but I don't like feeling the pressure of just and long telling me that I need to take a GLP one.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't like the pressure of Serena Williams, icon grandson champion being like, hey, I married the founder of Reddit, I'm a bajillion desilian air, I'm going to do a, I'm going to do an endorsement for a GLP one, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's go off Queens.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't love it because I'm like, what are we selling?
[SPEAKER_00]: What are we hawking here, okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: But I love Justin, I love straight Williams.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're great.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I don't need them telling me to take a GLP one.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just don't, but listen, you do you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was trying to tell you to take one.
[SPEAKER_01]: How did you feel about that?
[SPEAKER_01]: We're really fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're really actually, totally good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's pretty hard.
[SPEAKER_00]: And no power simultaneously.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really great because I'll be like, man, I have this emotional thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I will say, Quinn, recently, very affirmational to my emotional states, my life decisions recently.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like you've been pretty, you've been on board with my life decisions.
[SPEAKER_00]: like you've really grown up and you're making better decision.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you think it's just less time with me so you don't hear all of my crazy shit that you're like, you're just bringing the good ones to the table.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've stopped, you're like, I'm freezing my eggs and I'm renting six cute drafts.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is like great, the choices are choising.
[SPEAKER_00]: All equal value and of equal weight in life.
[SPEAKER_00]: The six dresses and freezing of the eggs equal.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just, are you sad you're not gonna be here or we're not gonna be recording when I am freezing my eggs?
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel sort of sad I don't get to like, keep the listeners abreast.
[SPEAKER_00]: bring everybody in the journey and well you could you could record of what I could but that feels self I mean maybe I'll do that I don't know I do feel like I need to tell someone about my experience when I do it because I need to like I don't know make something good come out of it where I'm like if I have to go through this I want to I got I got to tell everyone how it is exactly how it is so that you're prepared when you do it
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel that way about everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel that way about anything that people are like secretive about.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, no, say it, just say it.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I agree with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I agree with you there, obviously.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everything, but good.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's on my brain.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, when it's your, you know, after these messages, these real messages.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got my information from Wynet News, CNN, New York Times, and a few other places.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's something called rope jumping that Dionysman created.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not the same as bungee jumping.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's different because of the rope used.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bungee jumping ropes stretched to bounce.
[SPEAKER_01]: Rope jumping is not flexible.
[SPEAKER_01]: I told you I was going to do something that happened in the news.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm just freaking out because I've heard this and I'm excited.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought you were making that face because you were like, I'm about to tell the Quint Harry.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you told me last night.
[SPEAKER_00]: I followed, if there's one thing I do, you know me.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's follow direction.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just freaking out over here because I'm like, oh, the story gives me that.
[SPEAKER_01]: He-be-g-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d
[SPEAKER_01]: really it's we all know I mean but let's pretend we don't okay let's pretend we don't know what's coming okay so um a bungee rope stretches to bounce you and a and rope jumping is like a less flexible one and the result is instead of bouncing you swing so when it goes hot you start to swing it's just a different ride um Dan Osman
[SPEAKER_01]: who made this died during a jump in Yosemite in 1998, one of the cords snapped and he fell into a canyon.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was with someone they saw it happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sounds terrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, we're going to tell a really sad story about Maria Eduardo Rodriguez, stay free to us, who was 21 years old and went rope jumping on Ponte do Esquileto.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is in Lemuria.
[SPEAKER_01]: Queen, you're saying that it's worth probably not.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you're at lead, but you're saying the words and that's what matters at this moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like your season lately, but I love, like, because you just speak a little Spanish, but you know what, you're not even gonna try to do an accent, and I love that.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I, you know what I know how to say?
[SPEAKER_01]: Brazil, Brazil, it happened in Brazil.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, there's an abandoned bridge where people are running these, I don't know what I want to call them companies.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're a little bit rogue, but they are, I guess, companies that do extreme sports.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Maria, who wants to be a P teacher,
[SPEAKER_01]: and is this young young woman goes to do this and she pays, I don't know if you pay extra to do this, but when I went on to jump in, you could do all different kinds of jumps.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like, do you want to jump regular, do you want to jump backward?
[SPEAKER_01]: She does a kind where they're picking you up and they're like airplaneing you off.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the instructors, I don't know if you could call them instructors, the men that are running this operation.
[SPEAKER_01]: pick her up and are holding her up in the air so that her bodies in the shape of an airplane, her arms are out.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can see in one hand she has a GoPro, she has a helmet on and they're wearing helmets and they're wearing harnesses and they go out and they throw her off 130 foot bridge.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the footage of this is so upsetting because somebody showed the, there's, have you seen this footage?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like they show her gunning throne and then one of the guys holding the camera points, the camera down at a coiled rope on the ground.
[SPEAKER_01]: and you see the rope, not attached to her, just sitting on the ground.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, I can't, I can't, it's so old.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they look so confused.
[SPEAKER_00]: They throw her off and they're like, there's videos?
[SPEAKER_01]: There's videos from that same day that show other people doing the exact same thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: But what you would see in those videos is a very thick rope that is clipped to two places on their harness.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is no rope attached to her.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not that a rope breaks.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not that they didn't do the right way.
[SPEAKER_01]: They didn't even match it.
[SPEAKER_01]: She was literally
[SPEAKER_01]: thrown off a bridge with nothing attached to her and Witnesses see these men throw her off the bridge and notice this and start screaming because they're realizing There's nothing attached to this woman in the rope is On the ground
[SPEAKER_01]: And these men that have thrown her are just frozen, like completely baffled, completely confused.
[SPEAKER_01]: What has just happened?
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a nurse on site, raise a deas.
[SPEAKER_01]: She stumbles down this hill as fast as she can, scraping her body as she goes down because it's steep as hell.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's like a rope that you can use to climb down, but she's like flying down this hill.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's covered in mud.
[SPEAKER_01]: She walks to where she can find Maria and Maria in a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she talks to her in this sweet nurse says she often makes jokes when people are in harm's way like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: To lighten the mood or make them feel like I'm with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't be scared so she came up to her and was like nobody dies on my shift.
[SPEAKER_01]: Nobody dies on my shift.
[SPEAKER_01]: And
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, she's not on a shift.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's just somebody the witness, this horrific accident.
[SPEAKER_01]: And officers are called him when they arrive on the scene.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no vital signs, and there's no safety cord.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's, she's dead.
[SPEAKER_01]: She dies of these horrific injuries that would happen if you were thrown off a hundred and three times.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's thrown ahead first.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's the one who just held first.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: The bridge is called skeleton bridge.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's part of an old railway line.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been defunct for a long time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And right after this happens, the company that has is behind it deletes their Instagram account.
[SPEAKER_01]: people are waiting on the bridge.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was a line, of course, there was a bunch of people that were going to go.
[SPEAKER_01]: The What's App Group that they use to communicate and send information about the jumps removed gone.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're just a racing as if that will erase what is it happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: The men that are part of the company are, I don't need to say everybody's last name.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not Googling these people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Make con, Victor, and Luis, three of them ages 27, 32 and 42 get arrested the next day and charged with homicide.
[SPEAKER_01]: Two of them did try to make a break for it and were tracked down by a military helicopter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Under Brazilian law, there's a particular charge that they will bring that is a charge that's I think it's like manslaughter.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the idea that you Didn't intend to kill somebody, but you did something dangerous that had fatal risk and you did kill somebody.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there being held The police investigator said That they're they're called jumping instructors and when they talked to them
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, that woman was not connected to a safety rope.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's the story there?
[SPEAKER_01]: Who is supposed to connect her?
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're like, we don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know who is supposed to do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know who's job it was to check.
[SPEAKER_01]: Feliciano is saying that he and Victor were supposed to always attach people, but they were both responsible for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, one of us should have done it, but I can't remember.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, when I try to think about what happened right before that,
[SPEAKER_01]: totally blacked out.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he said as soon as I saw what had happened, everything that happened before got erased from my mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have no idea what happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was holding her by her feet.
[SPEAKER_01]: We would trade.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was no one.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was nothing consistent.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was supposed to connect people, which that's was part of the problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like sometimes I do it, sometimes he does it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And
[SPEAKER_01]: everybody thinking someone else must have done it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he talks about just, he says at that moment as I saw her, I couldn't understand why I wasn't seeing the rope.
[SPEAKER_00]: I simply couldn't understand.
[SPEAKER_01]: A man who had gone rope jumping from that same spot a month earlier told the news that his safety equipment, although attached, was never double checked by anybody.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was no one person does it, one person checks it.
[SPEAKER_01]: there's not even a consistent person doing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just like, well, we all know someone needs to attach this guy to a rope, so that'll probably happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like, she must have been so nervous about just like trusting.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you're about to bungee jumping.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a scary thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so like, you might not, you're like, okay, you just, you just, yeah, your life is literally their hands.
[SPEAKER_01]: You could go, it's not.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's similar to getting on a ride at an amusement park.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've all done it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the idea of like you get on a ride and you're not like asking the guy running the ride.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is this right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Should it do this?
[SPEAKER_01]: Should it move like this?
[SPEAKER_01]: Should it be this?
[SPEAKER_01]: You assume?
[SPEAKER_01]: that they know what they're doing, they're doing it a million times a day, and we just hop on these things that go upside down or a million feet in the air, and we assume that the person that is running it, even if there are 16-year-old kid that they know what they're doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: We all do this all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was not something crazy that she was up to, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: In a statement to Brazilian media, the men that did this, their attorney said they're in shock, right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I believe that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I said, you can see that she's holding a GoPro in her hand, and that was never recovered.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the witnesses that was there at the scene says that they saw one of these job instructors
[SPEAKER_01]: So you pay extra by the way to have the camera.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's 35 for the rope jump, $35.30 to carry the camera with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doubles the price.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's to have this footage of, which is just so heartbreaking.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is, but one of these winners is that I saw one of the employees take the camera off of her.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was waiting to do my jump after her and it just wasn't clear why he was removing the camera if it was to hide evidence if it was because the camera's really expensive and they were trying to keep the camera, but to go to this body and take the camera very strange.
[SPEAKER_01]: This company was not authorized to do these jumps according to Brazil's Ministry of Management and Innovation and Public Services.
[SPEAKER_01]: They say, they're not licensed to do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like a rogue company, which is not uncommon, but there's not a license for them to do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, the last post that Maria made on her Instagram said is picture of herself on the bridge, and it says, who was the crazy person who let me jump off a bridge?
[SPEAKER_01]: Her mom has posted on social media my beloved daughter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Today alone I wanted to hug you more than 1,000 times.
[SPEAKER_01]: How much your departure hurts me?
[SPEAKER_01]: I love you eternally my princess and thank you so much for being a part of my life for these 21 years.
[SPEAKER_01]: What an honor it was to hear you call me mom.
[SPEAKER_01]: God, thank you for this privilege.
[SPEAKER_01]: The others stating.
[SPEAKER_01]: So stupid to have lost this woman.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the city officials say that they want to sue the federal government over her deaths.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's been a huge debate sparked about doing extreme sports in Brazil and the way that oversight happens where it's sure they're not licensed.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whose job is it to come in and call that out and to issue a ticket or to issue a you have to stop doing this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whatever it is, it's
[SPEAKER_01]: somebody should.
[SPEAKER_01]: Somebody's responsible.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so hard because we I've always wanted to like go sky diving a bungee jump a bungee jumping feel scarier to me than sky diving for some reason I don't know maybe because there is less checks, but we've also done big act of stuff in Costa Rica where you're like this seems
[SPEAKER_00]: not totally legit, like, and there's an inherent risk too of, like, I don't feel scared going on roller coasters, especially in the US.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, there's so many protections, there's so much insurance, there's so much legally that they, is required.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the more, the older I get, again, the less, willing, I'm willing to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And even with you get attached, you know, it's not a guarantee.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was a case of a 22-year-old Scott Irish that was in the United States and this happened to him in 1991.
[SPEAKER_01]: Somebody just attached his harness.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: They slipped the fasteners around the main bungee cord instead of clipping it to the safety loop, any died.
[SPEAKER_01]: In 1997.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was supposed to be a bungee jump at the Super Bowl.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was a professional stunt performer that died.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was about, they were doing the rehearsal.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like a hundred foot jump.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were rehearsing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And somebody miscalculated the cord length.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she was in the Louisiana Superdome.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was Super Bowl 31.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was going to be for the half time show.
[SPEAKER_01]: They let out the court too fast or they had it too long.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't totally know that there was definitely some sort of human error that led to her just hitting the arena floor and dying.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the NFL was like, well, I guess we're canceling the bungee jumping act for the halftime show.
[SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, there's a commercial that's supposed to play at some point afterwards for Frito Le that has Chris Elliott the comedian bungee jumping from a blimp.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we should probably fucking cut the commercial to Jesus Christ.
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of what happens to when you're in a foreign country and you don't speak the language is just miscommunication and there's a lot of examples of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was in Spain in 2015, there was a 17-year-old Dutch tourist and the instructor sent to her no jump, which like, wait, like, give me a minute, no jump and she heard with the accent now jump.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she just jumped and she wasn't attached.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god.
[SPEAKER_01]: In 2021, there was a 25-year-old lawyer who died when they were signaling for her boyfriend to jump who had been attached, but she saw this hand signal and thought it was for her and jumped and she hadn't been attached.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's been an evolution of what needs to take place in 1990.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was an incident in South Africa with a commercial jump.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that incident was what led them to be like, OK, we need to start using bungee safety backup loops, which is now universal, where that's supposed to happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like having an extra parachute.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's an idea that if the cord that we're using doesn't do what it's supposed to do, there's a backup in place.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not something that I imagine they were using on this bridge unless they missed two things.
[SPEAKER_01]: But there's been a lot of regulations, the adoption of strict national and international safety standards has reduced the number of deaths.
[SPEAKER_01]: but there's still fatalities.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're just they usually have to do with these rogue operations because the regular the regulations apply to anyone that's getting a license to run along the way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sports are not having life for a license.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, if you're not applying for one of those licenses and you're just like, I know how to rig this and you do when you're having tourists come do it and you didn't get licensed, you're not following these safety precautions that we've learned are so important that are about things like one person should attach it a different person should check it and a third person whatever, I don't know what the regulations are but they're much more strict when you're getting licensed.
[SPEAKER_01]: when you're not working under these conditions, you can do it how these men were doing it, which was pretty sure one of us connect somebody each time, and it's never gone wrong before, so why would it be wrong right now?
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's this egregious thing of someone not being attached at all, and it is heartbreaking.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, as I'm about to travel, I'm thinking like,
[SPEAKER_01]: be good to do your research like hop on the internet even if it's going to cost more don't research the cheapest company if you're doing something like this research the best research the one that I don't I'm not here to tell people not to take these risks I understand getting on a roller coaster I understand bungee jumping I understand sky diving and I've done them you've skydive to so I don't think it's I didn't know that
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm out and I have.
[SPEAKER_01]: In New Jersey.
[SPEAKER_01]: Fun fact.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and so, so what I'm saying is I'm not here to be like, it's not worth it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I get that stance, but to me, it's, it's, this is a very serious thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is not the one to get.
[SPEAKER_00]: The reason you're doing this because it is an atly risky.
[SPEAKER_00]: There is something exciting about doing a risky thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: that being said is you can mitigate some extenuating factors by making sure like you are advocating for yourself.
[SPEAKER_00]: You are, you are like doing ask questions.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't be, you know, like, and spend a little more money.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, as I as just then they get a lot of money.
[SPEAKER_01]: Get online and research the place.
[SPEAKER_01]: People make mistakes.
[SPEAKER_01]: The thing that's hard is there's just really easy things like that to you should shock because I get this woman
[SPEAKER_01]: for her mind, and I would make the same error.
[SPEAKER_01]: You say to yourself, they've been doing this for years and nothing's ever happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: And nothing will ever happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so stupid for this young woman who have lost your life.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a day in the life for them.
[SPEAKER_00]: These two guys are doing hundreds of bungee jumps a day.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when they miss one, they don't catch it because they're an autopilot.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you don't want someone who's in control of your life.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're all arguably, I think like the biggest thing is, one person does, and you know what though, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't have it, but any of us can do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's obvious how many thousands of people have they done in their hasn't been an issue.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you're affirming to yourself that you can do this and it's fine, and it takes truly a tragic event to make any change.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think we see this in life all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we see this, but I'm also having done a lot of these adventure sports.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would I do sometimes you go to places and you can hear their system or somebody's yelling like rope one track and some two and then their partners like rope two chat and you're hearing them do it over and over again and you're like they have a system.
[SPEAKER_01]: I already feel great.
[SPEAKER_00]: I agree.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's 21 that's so sad that's so sad.
[SPEAKER_01]: And just so it's just so relatable to me like her taking the selfie and being like yeah And I like ha ha who do we to jump off this bridge?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then to watch it we're like all these people's lives.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's also so relatable to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those men like
[SPEAKER_01]: what must be going through?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know them.
[SPEAKER_00]: That to me is relatable.
[SPEAKER_01]: That to me is what the scariest thing is making them stage and yeah, how your hands would feel, having that body of them and then turning and that feeling like I just threw away that's my nightmare.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I have I've had that nightmare, not this exact situation, but I've had that nightmare where I have done something on accident that has caused a horrific tragedy.
[SPEAKER_00]: and it's not through any fault, I mean, it is to fault, but it's not through any malintent or bad intent.
[SPEAKER_00]: and yet someone's life is that to me, nightmare.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm never worried about hurting someone maliciously because I don't, I really don't think I have it in me to physically harm anyone with malicious intent.
[SPEAKER_00]: Although, I don't know, give me a couple of beers, we'll see what happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: But to me, the fear is hurting someone without meaning, too.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's horrifying.
[SPEAKER_00]: Cause you, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I got this story from the New York Times magazine, and I'm gonna take you back in time to October 13th, 1997.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're in Lawrence, Illinois, and we have Julie Ray, who's 28 years old, and she's at home with her 10-year-old son, Joel.
[SPEAKER_00]: He is in the fifth grade.
[SPEAKER_00]: Julie is a single mom, and she is currently getting her PhD at Indiana University, and I guess we're Lawrence, Illinois, is it's an hour and a half away from IU, which is where I went to college.
[SPEAKER_00]: She separated or divorced her husband.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if they were married, but she separated from her from Joel's father three years ago, and the two of them have been sharing custody.
[SPEAKER_00]: But her son Joel is staying with her at home right now, and it's really early in the morning, and she wakes up to the sound of a scream.
[SPEAKER_00]: She runs into Joel's room, and she does not see Joel, but she sees a man with a ski mask.
[SPEAKER_00]: he lunges at her.
[SPEAKER_00]: She has a black belt in Taekwondo, and so she starts fighting him back, and the two of them Tussle and they struggle.
[SPEAKER_00]: She chases him through the house into the backyard, they Tussle some more, he grabs her head, he slams it to the ground, and he books it and escapes.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's 430 in the morning at this point.
[SPEAKER_00]: She runs to her neighbors, she's in just a t-shirt.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she's covered in blood and underwear, and she's barefoot, and she pounds on her neighbor's door, her neighbor answers, and she sees Julie looking like this, and Julie is absolutely frantic.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's struggling to put together a sentence, she's freaking out, and to her neighbor, like pulls her into a bear hug, and Julie starts saying, Joel's gone, Joel's gone.
[SPEAKER_00]: She believes her son has been kidnapped because he's not in his room.
[SPEAKER_00]: They immediately called a police, the police come over, they start to search the house, they find Joel.
[SPEAKER_00]: Joel is on his bedroom floor, he is between his bed and his wall.
[SPEAKER_00]: He is covered in blood, he has been stabbed 12 times, he has pronounced dead on the scene.
[SPEAKER_00]: Julia's informed, and I imagine
[SPEAKER_00]: what little hope she had that her son was kidnapped, that he was gone, that he might be okay evaporated, and she screams in despair.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's absolutely devastated.
[SPEAKER_00]: Julia's then taken to the hospital.
[SPEAKER_00]: They record her.
[SPEAKER_00]: She has a black eye.
[SPEAKER_00]: She has rug burns on her knees.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a wound on her right arm that requires stitches and there's scratches, abrasions, all over her body.
[SPEAKER_00]: Her neck, her shoulder, her head, everywhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's like, I don't remember if I locked the back door, but I'm pretty sure it's safe to assume that I did.
[SPEAKER_00]: The police pretty quickly set their eyes on Julie as the person who did this to her son.
[SPEAKER_00]: But she has no history of mental illness, she has no criminal record.
[SPEAKER_00]: There is nothing to suggest that anything was wrong with this mom, with Julie.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the police keep eyeing her, in fact, they don't
[SPEAKER_00]: they don't find any obvious signs of forced entry into their home, but it's very clear that they're not doing a full forensic makeup of the house.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what happened the night before was she was with one of her best friends and her best friends kids with her son, and both moms were like scrapbooking while the kids played, and
[SPEAKER_00]: They find the murder weapon, and it is a knife from her kitchen.
[SPEAKER_00]: They dust the knife for prints, but they don't find any prints.
[SPEAKER_00]: But what they don't do is they also don't dust Joel's bedroom for prints.
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't dust the butcher block for prints.
[SPEAKER_01]: because they feel really sure that they know what happens.
[SPEAKER_00]: It seems that way.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what this is saying to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't preserve trace evidence on Joel's bed spread.
[SPEAKER_00]: They start to look for blood all over the house.
[SPEAKER_00]: They dig up the septic tank.
[SPEAKER_00]: They look into the washing machine.
[SPEAKER_00]: They look in shower drains.
[SPEAKER_00]: They put lumen all over the house, but they find nothing.
[SPEAKER_00]: They find nothing.
[SPEAKER_00]: No cover up nothing.
[SPEAKER_00]: they don't have a motive for why she would do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, her ex has been who she shares her son with.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was awarded physical custody of Joel when he remarried and Julie was not okay with this and she was really outspoken against how he got physical custody of Joel and she filed in a appeal two weeks before Joel's murder.
[SPEAKER_00]: But she is still the primary suspect.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's processing this horrific tragedy and I don't think she fully grasps that she is the primary suspect in this case Because why maybe why would you and I think like when you're processing that to you're like I just She's processing this and I'll be just a trader because she will go to trial While she's processing this neighbors are watching her and they're like she's really cold.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's not crying.
[SPEAKER_00]: I only saw her cry when
[SPEAKER_00]: She found out Joel was dead, but she's been cold and behaving erratically.
[SPEAKER_00]: Her behavior comes under a microscope to her neighbors, maybe she's not mourning in the way that they think she would mourn.
[SPEAKER_00]: After the murder, she cannot be left alone.
[SPEAKER_00]: She moves to an apartment in Bloomington, Indiana, where she's...
[SPEAKER_00]: trying to continue with her PhD and she ends up getting a job there, teaching, but she suffers from panic attacks and anxiety.
[SPEAKER_00]: Investigators show up to her home and work unannounced.
[SPEAKER_00]: She has friends stay with her and she says to fall asleep, she has to have someone on either side of her with the lights on.
[SPEAKER_00]: She gets a German shepherd who she starts taking everywhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: three years after this murder, um, this Illinois State's Attorney Appellate Prosecutors office, they take this case to the grand jury and apparently this prosecutorial staff has always handled sort of complex cases.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, uh,
[SPEAKER_00]: The big evidence that they have against her is bloodstained pattern analysis.
[SPEAKER_00]: They take this information to a grand jury.
[SPEAKER_00]: The grand jury decides it is enough to indict Julie Ray for the murder of her son.
[SPEAKER_00]: There is little to no forensic evidence.
[SPEAKER_00]: There is no motive.
[SPEAKER_00]: All they have is bloodstained pattern analysis.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to explain what that is.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is rooted in the belief that the drops, spatters, and trails of blood at a crime scene are rich with stories and information.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you can reverse, engineer all of this, and even reconstruct crime scenes to understand what has happened and how we've seen this before in cases.
[SPEAKER_00]: Many of the people that are, quote, experts in this field are law enforcement officers.
[SPEAKER_00]: They are not scientists, but their expert testimony often lends a sense of scientific certainty to circumstantial cases.
[SPEAKER_00]: and so when prosecutors get a bloodstained pattern analyst on the stand, they're able to say whatever they want in a lot of ways that supports their story and the jury hears it like it is a scientific record, but it is not based in science.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Julie's trial is February of 2002, and again, this is the major, this is the major evidence against her, and what the evidence against her is, is that on her shirt, which was covered in part of her blood, because remember, she had a stitches on her right arm, so it was her own blood, they found a miniscule amount of blood,
[SPEAKER_00]: on her t-shirt that night, that belonged to Joel.
[SPEAKER_00]: Most of it was her blood that there's a tiny smear on the shirt's right shoulder, that belonged to Joel.
[SPEAKER_00]: The defense obviously is like, wait a minute, she tussled with this intruder.
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course her son's blood is going to, if this guy killed her son, some of the blood is going to get on her shirt.
[SPEAKER_00]: retired police detective and past president of the International Association of Bloodstained Pattern Analysis testified that the crime scene had been staged and manipulated and it was not consistent with signs with a story of a struggle.
[SPEAKER_00]: His expert opinion was based on the examination of evidence and he said that his quote, experience of having gone to many, many scenes, many like this, hundreds of scenes, no indication that there was a third party in this residence.
[SPEAKER_00]: Another investigator gets on the stand and this guy is even more insistent that this blood stain on her shoulder is consistent that she wielded a weapon and it was not transferred.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this expert offered no proof of this, no experiments that he had conducted, no data, no explanation of the methodology he used to come to his conclusions.
[SPEAKER_00]: all it is, is this guy being like, it for sure is that.
[SPEAKER_00]: The defense for their part, they call their own expert, who's like, no, this is a blood transfer to her shirt, possibly from the actual perpetrator, the person who killed this child.
[SPEAKER_00]: the blood rested on top of the fibers, this expert told the jurors, it had not penetrated the weave of the fabric as in, like, if you, if it was cast off a weapon, it would have weaved into the fabric.
[SPEAKER_00]: It feels like we're watching a procedural and it's like you're just trusting that these, quote, experts are scientifically based and I understand as a juror, you're like, oh, this is scientific, but
[SPEAKER_00]: Before the jury leaves to deliberate, the public defender is reminding them, hey, that these conclusions are not based in science at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: In addition to these this stained pattern analysis, the prosecution really targeted Julie as a mom.
[SPEAKER_00]: They had her ex-husband testify in court that when she found out she was pregnant 17 years old, she considered getting an abortion, and this was used against her.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like she didn't want this kid.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were like, now you don't want to.
[SPEAKER_01]: 10 years later, no, that's not our work.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just vial.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, this is in early two.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is in 2000.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they're painting her out to be this horrible mom.
[SPEAKER_00]: Neighbors were called to testify.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is when they talk about how she was acting erratically and cold.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they said that after the discovery, she never cried.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's this woman dealt with truly the most tragic, and she had to defend herself against this guy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Julie never took the stand in this case.
[SPEAKER_00]: So these claims went completely unchallenged by the defense.
[SPEAKER_00]: The jury wanted to liberate.
[SPEAKER_00]: They came back with a verdict of guilty.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she sentenced to 65 years in prison.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now keep in mind, she's going to prison.
[SPEAKER_00]: and the fellow inmates think that she murdered her own child.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is the worst thing you can be convicted of doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of the women in these gels are mothers themselves.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the abuse and trauma of her being in jail having been convicted of murdering her son, not only is she mourning the loss of her son, but her whole life is just completely gone.
[SPEAKER_00]: So in 2003, the center of wrongful convictions began working on Julie's case.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then, in 2004, there was a big break in the case.
[SPEAKER_00]: Tommy Lynn Cells, who I don't know if you remember, I covered this case a while ago.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was in 2004, and I think it's 2003, but it's the story of Kayling Harris and her friend Crystal Cells.
[SPEAKER_00]: The two of them were in bunk beds together.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Tommy Lincel's came into the trailer.
[SPEAKER_00]: I remember that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Tommy Lincel's had snuck into the trailer, and he attacked Kaleen Harris.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was 13 years old.
[SPEAKER_00]: He goes to leave and he sees Crystal Serals.
[SPEAKER_00]: He stabs her repeatedly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Crystal pretends to be dead.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then when he leaves, she runs to a neighbors to get help.
[SPEAKER_00]: and it's her testimony and her eyewitness statement that gets Tommy Cells convicted of murder and he is facing execution in the state of Texas.
[SPEAKER_00]: Finds out that this man has murdered 22 people, among which he tells Illinois investigators that in 1997 he broke into a house he stabbed a boy to death using a knife from the butcher block in the kitchen and a woman found him.
[SPEAKER_00]: and he fought with her both inside and outside and he's repeating information from the case that completely matches Julie's story.
[SPEAKER_00]: In the same year that he confesses to this murder, the Illinois appellate court overturns Julie's conviction because of a legal error and orders a new trial.
[SPEAKER_00]: She is retried in 2006.
[SPEAKER_00]: The prosecutors doubled down on bloodstained pattern analysis.
[SPEAKER_00]: They put the same expert witnesses on the stand and he doubles down.
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, he adds information to this blood-stained pattern.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's so convinced it's her.
[SPEAKER_00]: he says that there's evidence that a bloody hand pushed up against the shirt and he said it could have been Joel's bloody hands.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he's adding detail that doesn't exist to this case and his testimony is suggesting that Joel saw his mother stabbing him and he tried to push her away.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then when he was cross-examined, they were like, did you ever request the measurements of Joel's
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like he's coming up and again, this is a miniscule amount of blood that they found on her shoulder.
[SPEAKER_00]: The defense's expert comes up and there's like there's no scientific basis for this claim.
[SPEAKER_00]: Defense comes up and they point to Julie's injuries that she incurred from that night and they could not be self-inflicted.
[SPEAKER_00]: They also played Tommy sells confession for the jury.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank God, Julie takes the stand.
[SPEAKER_00]: She tells her story and she's like, I did not kill my son.
[SPEAKER_00]: The defense then also puts forth evidence that Tommy sells is in the vicinity of Lawrence, Illinois, at the time of the murder.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they're able to have his confession and see where he was.
[SPEAKER_00]: The jury returns with a verdict.
[SPEAKER_00]: not guilty.
[SPEAKER_00]: Julie screams she falls to the floor.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's so grateful to be found not guilty of something she did not do.
[SPEAKER_00]: When the prosecutor is interviewed after the trial, again, this prosecutor still believes she did it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he says publicly, well, the jury found her not guilty, they did not find her innocent.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, people still believe she did it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she said, I thought everything would be better.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought I might go to law school, finish my doctoral degree.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought I might be strong and able to help others and give back to my family and friends who had given so much to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just had no idea what it would be like.
[SPEAKER_00]: The trauma, this poor woman has experienced both in the death of her son.
[SPEAKER_00]: two criminal trials.
[SPEAKER_00]: Years in prison as someone who believed she killed her son, which is an, I, as I said, is an unforgivable sin.
[SPEAKER_00]: The trauma and the abuse of in prison, she, she received.
[SPEAKER_00]: She still carries this way, and people believe she did it.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are people in the world who believe she did this.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was formally exonerated in 2010, but she'd go and apply for jobs and they'd Google her name and they'd find this story.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they would just go, it's not worth the trouble.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's go in like two months.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I just have like two months.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like so much ease and then in 2018, as of 2018 when this article came out, she had no job, she had no income, she's like, I don't know what to do, she's tried.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really how long for convictions to fuck up people's lives when it should be the opposite, it should be like you didn't breathe out.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think she was given like a lot of money for it, like $80,000, which isn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: In this article, that was interesting, and I can get into it at another time, but it's a large conversation about these bloodstained pattern experts.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there are certain states that are now requiring these experts to be accredited.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're trying to make reforms on how these experts are admitted to trial and their testimonies admitted, because truly,
[SPEAKER_00]: Based on this, it's like, none of these guys are scientists.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not like a dexter situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're just old police officers who's like, I've seen some shit.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I know what happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they come in with such confidence and insureness that people just believe them.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, right, for Julie, she says that any reform on this will, it's too little too late for her.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because she also keep in mind that Joel never got his day in court.
[SPEAKER_00]: because Tommy Lincel's was executed in 2014 and he was not formally convicted of the murder of her son.
[SPEAKER_00]: Her son will never see any justice.
[SPEAKER_00]: Her acquittal just got them back to the ground level.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's upset that this man will never be charged with the murder of her son.
[SPEAKER_00]: She lives with constant regret that she didn't wake up sooner.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what plagues are.
[SPEAKER_00]: She wish she could have woken up earlier and she could have saved her son.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's like, I wish I saved my son or I wish I died trying.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I think any of this would be better than what she experienced.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so sad and I...
[SPEAKER_01]: And like the people that we should, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like the saddest thing in the world that we was a kid and then to have everybody be able to see you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was so crazy to me is how quickly the police set their eyes on her.
[SPEAKER_00]: She had, and also the amount of defensive wounds she had.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's completely bloody.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think there's something really interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, no history of mental illness.
[SPEAKER_00]: No history of mental illness.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's so much about this that it's like, what made them look at her and go, it was you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it that it was this small town and they're like nothing like that could possibly happen here.
[SPEAKER_00]: They couldn't even and I think also when we've talked about this we talked about this in crime of a lifetime.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like with women we have benevolent sexes and the women couldn't possibly do this and a lot of times women will get away with murder for that reason.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what switched their focus on to her.
[SPEAKER_00]: And additionally, I don't know, and additionally, I'm sure she's been punished more because of the wrong she did, because they think she was capable of doing this, the punishment is higher.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because not only is it a crime against a child, but her child, they're breaking the laws of motherhood and the expectations of women.
[SPEAKER_00]: But her life is completely destroyed.
[SPEAKER_00]: And a
[SPEAKER_00]: And her life was going to be destroyed because her son was horrifically murdered from the beginning.
[SPEAKER_00]: No life can fully return to normal after that tragic of after a tragedy like that, but to compound it by accusing her and, ugh, really sad, really sad story.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I should, on that note, on that note, okay, on that note, okay, on that note, okay, bye guys.
[UNKNOWN]: How else?
[SPEAKER_01]: How else we do that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Bye, do you believe it?