[SPEAKER_04]: I feel like part of what I'm hoping to bring to people is this permission to remember, reembodied, and claim your birth right relationship with our Earth, with you as Earth.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're listening to the Good Dirt Podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a place where we dig into the nitty-gritty of sustainable living through food, fashion, and lifestyle.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we're your host, Mary and Emma Kingsley, the mother and daughter founder team of Lady Farmer.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're sewing seeds of slow living through our community platform events and online marketplace.
[SPEAKER_02]: We started this podcast as a means to share the wealth of information and quality conversations that we're having in our world as we dream up and deliver ways for each of us to live into the new paradigm, one that is regenerative, balanced and whole.
[SPEAKER_03]: We want to put the microphone in front of the voices that need to be heard the most right now.
[SPEAKER_03]: The farmers, the dreamers, the designers, and the doers.
[SPEAKER_02]: So come call to be a better world with us.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're so glad you're here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, let's dig in.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hello, everyone.
[SPEAKER_03]: Welcome to High Summer.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just me today.
[SPEAKER_03]: Emma will be back for the next go round.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's been a few weeks here, and yes, it's a bit of a new pace for the good dirt, but one that we find is working for us as we practice what we preach, so to speak in listening to life as it unfolds.
[SPEAKER_03]: And being led as much as possible by what feels right.
[SPEAKER_03]: So,
[SPEAKER_03]: I know we've been seeing some crazy stuff this season, including the unprecedented heat of recent days, which we have had here, severe storms, high prices, and just general upheaval across the globe, no doubt it's been feeling pretty stringuous at times, but despite it all, I hope that everyone can find at least a glimpse.
[SPEAKER_03]: of summer's magic these days.
[SPEAKER_03]: We do have to slow down for it, turn off the news, give it a chance to shine through.
[SPEAKER_03]: So don't forget to allow that for yourself.
[SPEAKER_03]: Make sure to find at least some small way to enjoy this time of year.
[SPEAKER_03]: taste some fresh summer produce, go outside when the weather allows it, enjoy the blooming flowers, the lush landscapes, beach time, pool time, nap time, watching the fireflies night listening for the frogs and the crickets, whatever is available to you in your life.
[SPEAKER_03]: Give yourself space to claim it in celebration of the season, because yes, it is fleeting and before you know it, we're going to be talking about fall, yep, but not yet.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's still summer.
[SPEAKER_03]: So let's take it in.
[SPEAKER_03]: So today's conversation is with Julie Brams.
[SPEAKER_03]: She is an earth-centered psychotherapist and a certified force therapy guide.
[SPEAKER_03]: The nature embedded mind how the way we think can heal our planet and ourselves.
[SPEAKER_03]: This title is a 2026 Nautilus gold award winner.
[SPEAKER_03]: Julie is also the co-founder of Elemental, the Earth-centered learning community where participants come together to bring these ideas forward into their lives and communities.
[SPEAKER_03]: When I discovered Julie's book, I instantly knew I wanted to reach out to her and talk about it here on the Good Dirt.
[SPEAKER_03]: And while there's much being written and talked about regarding our role as humans within the natural world.
[SPEAKER_03]: I found Julie's book coming from a psychologist point of view with her careful use of language and her openness about her own experiences, a really unique and compelling perspective.
[SPEAKER_03]: You'll hear that here in this thoughtful discussion with Julie as we probe the depths of this topic and we hope you find this meaningful and thought-provoking and most of all we hope you enjoy it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So here's Julie Brands, author of The Nature and That It Mind.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I'm Julie Brams and I am a clinical Earth-centered psychotherapist.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm a forced therapy guide and I am the author of the Nature Embedded Mind and co-founder of a learning community called Elemental.
[SPEAKER_03]: Elemental.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I want to hear all about that among other things, but let's start with Tell us a little bit about your background and how you ended up kind of getting into this Field of work
[SPEAKER_04]: My background is pretty straightforward, licensed, marriage, and family therapist.
[SPEAKER_04]: I have had a clinical practice, a private practice for 34 years, went through all of the incarnations of finding what works, finding what felt like home to me in terms of methodologies, as well as issues that I treat clinically.
[SPEAKER_04]: but it's a union of this professional life with my deep love of our earth forever and a fascination with human consciousness.
[SPEAKER_04]: Those two things, or those three things, help me arrive where I am now, which is an understanding of
[SPEAKER_04]: the human mind, what causes suffering, and more importantly, what relieves suffering.
[SPEAKER_04]: My love of nature kind of brought me through this doorway of what in the beginning is called Ecosycology or Ecotherapy.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm standing on the shoulders of many, many wonderful
[SPEAKER_04]: sought to understand our relationship, a human relationship with the rest of nature, how does that impact our health and wellness?
[SPEAKER_04]: In my work, I'm sort of like refreshing the language and maybe making it a little more accessible for people because when I would talk about Ecosychology, people would often say, oh, yeah, I recycle.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, okay, it's so much more than recycling
[SPEAKER_04]: what I'm seeing.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I started calling it Earth-centered, which then people would become curious.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think this curiosity is a part of what really helps what I've been calling now, re-rooting, re-rooting our mind back into the rest of nature.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I'm working a lot to find a language that helps people identify this root problem in our framework, not just, oh, I need to go spend more time in nature because I feel better.
[SPEAKER_04]: That is true, but I'm looking at the cultural change, the cultural shift that I believe can only happen if we change the framework.
[SPEAKER_04]: out of this anthropocentric or human centric paradigm, back into an earth centric or a kin centric paradigm, which is where human species began.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's a return, let's say it's a return to our original mind, it's our return home, it's a return back to earth, but I'm looking at it at this framework level.
[SPEAKER_04]: and really calling in my colleagues, my fellow mental health clinicians to take it seriously as a mental health issue.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'd like to see the whole field advance in this way, so that's also really important to me.
[SPEAKER_04]: But always remembering that our own mental sovereignty, you know, we don't need permission from anyone.
[SPEAKER_04]: And individuals, we got to look at what's in our mind and what's causing us harm and replacing it, like unlearning harmful things.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that's it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, the language piece is really key, and I want to get back to that.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I want to reflect on something you said in the very beginning there, you said, what led you to this was your love for the earth.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then as you said, like people say, oh, I love the earth.
[SPEAKER_03]: I recycle or, you know, they might say, you know, I go to the park.
[SPEAKER_03]: We take our kids to the park and all those things that are important.
[SPEAKER_03]: But fundamental to where you are, and I think fundamental to this paradigm shift that you're seeking.
[SPEAKER_03]: what the deep love and connection for the earth.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that is the path, the path that's going to facilitate this paradigm shift.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I want to ask you, how do you feel like maybe this is bold to say, but I feel like that true deep love for the earth is rather rare.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not the norm in our culture.
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like it's even separate from respect.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's separate from environmentalism.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's separate from conservationism.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's all related.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a Jace.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: But the love.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I want to ask you how you feel like that you cultivated that in your life.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, I think these are really important and deep and personal questions, like as you're asking me, I hope that the listeners also are kind of considering for themselves too, but what I'm kind of highlighting or emphasizing is that these barriers to the fullness of the love we can feel.
[SPEAKER_04]: was very much by design.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's conditioned into our mind.
[SPEAKER_04]: We are trained away from the full love that I believe.
[SPEAKER_04]: We naturally have, and cultures that are sustainable, not Western civilization follows a model of extraction and domination, and those cultures always rise and fall.
[SPEAKER_04]: because you cannot have perpetual extraction.
[SPEAKER_04]: Cultures that are in harmony with the rest of nature are listening and are in kinship, like our indigenous contemporaries or our indigenous ancestors, no matter what skin tone we have back in our lineage, people who were deeply connected to the land in this familial way.
[SPEAKER_04]: respect, like you're saying, respect, reciprocity, a deeper understanding, a community, you know, Western civilization, which is what I'm really wanting to point to, really characterize itself as separating out from that, creating an artificial hierarchy where humans are above superior
[SPEAKER_04]: And so going back to this idea of love, I think that many people love our earth, love other species, love flowers, love plants, love animals, love the ocean, you know, love being around a campfire, all the elements, you know, but when we start to feel ourselves getting into this
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to say untamed way of loving.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Something inside us shuts it down and tells us that's one that's not possible or we shouldn't do that or if we do feel something like that, we shouldn't tell anyone, you know, and again, this is the
[SPEAKER_04]: result of the original punishments for being in relationship or extremely brutal.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so now there's like that history that we kind of feel cellularly in a way where we even shame ourselves or say, wow, that couldn't really happen.
[SPEAKER_04]: So anyway, I feel like part of what I'm hoping to bring to people is this permission to remember, reembodied and claim your birthright relationship with our earth, with you as birth, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: We are earth.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love that the birthright relationship.
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, I hear what you're
[SPEAKER_03]: trained out of that claiming that birthright.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think you were talking about your speaking of Western civilization here.
[SPEAKER_03]: And Western civilization was formed around or evolved around monotheism, the monotheistic religions.
[SPEAKER_03]: And those frameworks, there is a hierarchy that
[SPEAKER_03]: the earth.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, the Bible, Genesis, says we have dominion over, over earth.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I would love to see since the monotheistic religions are prevalent still in our culture in the western world that one is not exclusive of the other, that whatever, you know, cultural religious culture or thinking or philosophies you had heard too, that it's not an opposition to this idea.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's, it's so ingrained, you know, it's so ingrained in the culture.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's a hard thing to undo, to unravel.
[SPEAKER_04]: It is, I think, because of this mental operating system, I'll just use that language to help us, maybe see what I mean, because when we're in what I call, like this perceptual cage,
[SPEAKER_04]: The bars are going to pop up like that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, this is against my faith.
[SPEAKER_04]: I can't do it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Anyone who has a spiritual practice will probably encounter their spiritualism or their beliefs in this re-rooting.
[SPEAKER_04]: But re-rooting is not a religion.
[SPEAKER_04]: It is simply coming back to reality.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, for example, like this is what there are two things I want to say to try to help orient this.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, we understand that how we got here was a series of divisions, philosophers created divisions.
[SPEAKER_04]: We have in around 500 BCE, we have this break from nature or the rest of nature.
[SPEAKER_04]: We also have a spike, and I'm not placing it exactly in the right timeline.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not a historian, so fact check me.
[SPEAKER_04]: But the split between the mind and the body.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we have Descartes splitting us again.
[SPEAKER_04]: The Enlightenment.
[SPEAKER_04]: The Enlightenment?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think therefore I am, my, the mind is better than the body.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so now we are coming back into reality, like those are all fantasies.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's fantasy.
[SPEAKER_04]: Someone's getting it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, our body is part of Earth.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so we're coming back.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're now a lot of us, most of us, maybe even hopefully, we know the mind is the body.
[SPEAKER_04]: We've got that back, the mind and the body are one.
[SPEAKER_04]: one unit of molecules of emotion is, I believe, Candace Perts book and people bringing that back to, oh yeah, the mind and the body are one.
[SPEAKER_04]: The next thing to recollect are for us to have, remember, our body is earth.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, we are born up as a species like all the other species.
[SPEAKER_04]: We co-create birth as one organism.
[SPEAKER_04]: For example, we co-create the atmosphere.
[SPEAKER_04]: So every time we exhale, we're creating atmosphere for the plants to take in and the plants are creating the atmosphere for us to take in.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so we're like breathing together, but we're also co-creating
[SPEAKER_04]: We're engaged.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we're part of it all the time.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: So understanding that our body cannot be separate from Earth, then we can make this leap.
[SPEAKER_04]: My mind is my body.
[SPEAKER_04]: My body is the Earth.
[SPEAKER_04]: My mind is the Earth.
[SPEAKER_04]: The Earth is my body.
[SPEAKER_04]: Earth is my mind.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like we can, it's just coming back into reality.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's reality.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: back again to the prevalent religious teachings, beliefs that the mind is superior to the body.
[SPEAKER_03]: God is superior to the body.
[SPEAKER_03]: God is somewhere else.
[SPEAKER_03]: God is in the heaven.
[SPEAKER_03]: Therefore, the earth is lesser than.
[SPEAKER_03]: Our bodies are lesser than.
[SPEAKER_03]: In the ultimate goal is to unite somewhere with the divine
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to come off as criticizing that belief.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just thinking about the ideas that are so ingrained in the culture, in the prevalent culture, that make this so difficult.
[SPEAKER_03]: How can we reclaim the earth as sacred?
[SPEAKER_03]: And therefore, our bodies as sacred, because for so long, as you mentioned, punishment were being engaged with nature and using nature for healing or whatever.
[SPEAKER_03]: People died for demonstrating many people women, mostly.
[SPEAKER_03]: died for demonstrating that she's type of beliefs and practices.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, and as you say, that's in our sales, that's in our DNA, that's in our cellular memories.
[SPEAKER_03]: The fear, definitely.
[SPEAKER_03]: The fear.
[SPEAKER_03]: Can you talk about these barriers?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, there you go.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, we're up against a lot wanting to
[SPEAKER_03]: reclaim and say, Earth is sacred.
[SPEAKER_03]: The Earth is sacred, heaven and earth are one.
[SPEAKER_03]: Our bodies and heaven and earth are mind, body, spirit.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you said, we're sort of getting that re-engrained, you know?
[SPEAKER_04]: And just to continue to not have to fight with one's own face.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sitting with, we know that our body is connected to Earth.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Exist without it.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're embedded in an ecosystem.
[SPEAKER_04]: We only think that we're not.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not true.
[SPEAKER_04]: And when we are forced to like gaslight ourselves, it dysregulates the body because the body knows that it's connected, the body responds to the environment.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we are at a disservice, we're at a deficit if we're operating behaviorally in a paradigm that's, you know, like again, counter to reality.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I don't know.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, this is a great question if someone who is of a faith that believes that we're superior to, I would wonder how they see
[SPEAKER_04]: Do they see that our bodies are embedded?
[SPEAKER_04]: Again, like, we don't exist without breathing.
[SPEAKER_04]: We are constantly bringing earth in.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're bringing it in air, we're bringing it in.
[SPEAKER_04]: The soil, the nutrients, we are minerals.
[SPEAKER_04]: We have water running through us.
[SPEAKER_04]: We have the heat from the sun.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's again, a fact, even the astronauts that are going up with all the equipment, their body changes.
[SPEAKER_04]: It cannot do this.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like the body actually elongates and loses its abilities that we take for granted as normal, you know?
[SPEAKER_04]: It's fascinating.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we don't do well off of Earth.
[SPEAKER_04]: If we are unprotected by equipment and rocketships or whatever can live, no, we just don't.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so that's not necessarily about spirituality.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's just physiology.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's a rabbit hole.
[SPEAKER_03]: these long-held beliefs and systems that make the Earth and our bodies lesser than even though I think most people today would appreciate the science behind the fact that we cannot extricate ourselves from the Earth and still live here.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's a whole thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: So thank you for indulging me there.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because I think what I think what you're really focusing on and this
[SPEAKER_04]: The question is, how do we disentangle ourselves from the love of superiority?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you know, because it isn't really how do we disentangle ourselves from anything else, but placing ourselves above, you know, makes us feel better.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, more secure.
[SPEAKER_04]: It makes us feel better and more secure
[SPEAKER_04]: superiority is domination and extraction.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we feel better if we think that we're in this other upper realm because what happens to what's below us is atrocious.
[SPEAKER_04]: So anything below, let's say anything below humans, now we can do whatever we want to it without conscience,
[SPEAKER_04]: anything without any parameters because it's here for human beings.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so we can do what we want.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we see that that's not true.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're adding into big problems because we've been operating this way.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then when you get into the human, you know, strata, if we are going to pretend that there is a hierarchy, now we're going to decide which humans are superior to other humans.
[SPEAKER_04]: and then we also have atrocious things that we do, so at the top of the top is white men, and again not to be a jerk about it, but that just happens to be what's at the top and then anything below that can be used, can be dominated, can be extracted from, can be, you know,
[SPEAKER_04]: I think if we don't like that, if there's something in our heart of our heart of hearts that says, I don't like that.
[SPEAKER_04]: We can understand that that's a symptom of ranking, that's a symptom of, again, an imaginary hierarchy.
[SPEAKER_04]: There is no hierarchy in nature.
[SPEAKER_04]: You don't have the bees and the flowers who's more important.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not a thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: They're linked.
[SPEAKER_04]: And this is like, I like to credit Gloria Steinem with this.
[SPEAKER_04]: Imagine ourselves as linked not ranked.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: So when we imagine ourselves as linked, a lot becomes safer actually than if we're ranked and wanting to be on the top, because then we're constantly climbing for an imaginary top.
[SPEAKER_04]: But if we're linked, we're safe.
[SPEAKER_04]: and if we're linked together as humans, then the next step is just to remember, I'm linked with the others in humans as well, and then how do we co-create?
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think circle background how we started this, that's where the real love comes in, like the appreciation, not like in your head appreciation, but just the deep, as we say, cellular appreciation and knowledge that did,
[SPEAKER_03]: we are it and it is us and that that is a that's a kind of love that to my earlier point.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's kind of rare because of all this cultural and all these things we've been talking about.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I see that.
[SPEAKER_03]: He said something a moment ago about what happens when we're seeing now the results of the extractive practices and where we can use the earth resources for our
[SPEAKER_03]: So that brings me around to in your book, you mentioned what I like to call a hot experience, maybe.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're reading the last hours of ancient sunlight.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that was an eye opener for you.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I nearly left out of my,
[SPEAKER_03]: seat or where I was because I had the same experience back in the early 2000s when I read that very book.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I wanted to hear you talk about the last hours of ancient sunlight and how that affected you.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, and again, if anyone listening hasn't read it, I highly recommend it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think Tom Hartman did a wonderful job of explaining these different
[SPEAKER_04]: cultures, the cultures that sustain over time, you know, this what he calls older cultures, yeah, and the younger culture that we're in that every time it collapses.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was reading that book and my daughter at the time was about nine years old and she was playing outdoors with her best friends and I was just watching these beautiful girls playing and I was thinking about
[SPEAKER_04]: How can I take my skill set as a mental health professional as someone with this clinical skill?
[SPEAKER_04]: Is there a way that I can contribute to helping people move a little more effortlessly into sustainability?
[SPEAKER_04]: I think it's awesome to lots since that day that was a while ago, I feel like that might have been even
[SPEAKER_03]: 20 years ago, early 2000s.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think you wrote it in 2004, I think.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's been a bit.
[SPEAKER_04]: But at that moment, I saw very clearly the possibility of humanities.
[SPEAKER_04]: way of living lifestyle that could again reclaim sustainability and I mean that not just in the way that sometimes it's used but complete sustainability or maybe living harmony or as Tiknot Han would call it interbeing that we enter our in a web of life.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it again it brings us
[SPEAKER_04]: Back to reality that we are part of a system that the Earth is a living organism, that it has its own intelligence, you know, now we've got more science confirming that there's sanctions and intelligence in.
[SPEAKER_04]: many other species, species that we for a long time just told each other weren't, but it is true.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I even just went to a presentation that was talking about intelligence on a molecular level.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the implications of that are really mind-blowing.
[SPEAKER_04]: But if every molecule, which is what
[SPEAKER_04]: Now it's a lot of systems and a lot of, again, I want to keep calling it permission, permission to recognize that life is alive, that life is not human, but it is aware and it is communicating and it communicates with us and we could communicate with it.
[SPEAKER_03]: They exist to promote a way of life, a culture is exactly what you said.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're taking all this into account there.
[SPEAKER_03]: If there's a living being and how can humans live?
[SPEAKER_03]: within this paradigm, that thinking and shift out of the extractive way of being called dream economy, all that kind of stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's very far reaching that the idea is is out there and it's bubbling around and there's people working on it and talking about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we've had those guys on, we've talked to them a couple of times and the work that they're doing is just
[SPEAKER_03]: amazing, you know, they get together and they talk and they read books and just like we're doing right here is the way to do it, I guess.
[SPEAKER_03]: Practice it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And what I want to emphasize too because I really believe, you know, that the way out of this is to stop centering ourselves as the source of knowing what to do.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like I think.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, if we just keep thinking we have
[SPEAKER_04]: So what we need to do, like how to learn how to be human in this system, is to ask the other than humans.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, we learn from them.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's again, this challenges another misunderstanding or mistake in our thinking,
[SPEAKER_04]: many things, one that they're an intelligent, to that we don't believe they can communicate with us or three, we think they don't want to.
[SPEAKER_04]: We think that Earth wants us to be extinct.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, that's not true.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's ridiculous.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're here as a species that the Earth created for a reason.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to say a little foreshadowing the reason is probably
[SPEAKER_04]: love.
[SPEAKER_04]: But what I want to say is to come back into reality, we need to stop thinking that we have to figure out how do we get along here?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like we get along here really well when we get out of our way mentally and we join or bond or spend time with.
[SPEAKER_04]: other than humans with an agenda of getting to know them and getting to understand how do we communicate, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: So this is part of the particular nature therapy that I'm promoting and practicing and my company is built around is that this particular relational nature therapy.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I want to say so it doesn't sound so strange.
[SPEAKER_04]: We can see how we allow each other culturally to do this with certain species.
[SPEAKER_04]: We just draw an artificial line.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we say to each other, it's okay to have a relationship with your dog.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay to say, oh my dog knows what I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_04]: And they do, or it's, I know what my dog needs.
[SPEAKER_04]: My dog lets me know what it needs.
[SPEAKER_04]: It does.
[SPEAKER_04]: We have interspecies communication.
[SPEAKER_04]: But what we have artificially done, which our indigenous contemporaries don't, is said, well, we can't do that with the river.
[SPEAKER_04]: We can't do that with soil or a tree.
[SPEAKER_04]: But that's crazy.
[SPEAKER_03]: Those bars you were talking about envisioning those bars, like running and right up against them.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, a rock, you're talking in your rocks.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, right.
[SPEAKER_04]: How long is there been going on?
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: So if we can allow ourselves to suspend that disbelief and spend time with another than human, let's say a tree or a rock or a river, and we begin with listening, sort of introducing ourselves and then asking, what can you tell me about life?
[SPEAKER_04]: can you tell me about being human and then not to expect it to come from in your verbal language maybe it will but likely it's going to come through senses you know that you're going to have an impulse you're going to have a feeling you're going to have something a sound a smell and it will begin over time and practice it becomes I'm going to say you
[SPEAKER_04]: because that's what we do, we're actually really good at it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So in your practice with people, you're work with people.
[SPEAKER_03]: I imagine that you introduce this in kind of a playful way.
[SPEAKER_03]: So if people are taking this too seriously, then they'll cross over into the disbelief realm.
[SPEAKER_03]: So is that off-base?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, do you say, let's just talk to the tree, you know?
[SPEAKER_03]: If you must pretend it can hear you and what is that experience like?
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean do you ever use that or how do you get people to get on the other side of this bars?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean okay, so it's less prescriptive than that because and in this style I'm not
[SPEAKER_04]: the therapist.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not the healer.
[SPEAKER_04]: The rest of nature is okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was certified through the association of nature and forest therapy.
[SPEAKER_04]: One of their taglines is the guide.
[SPEAKER_04]: So you become a guide.
[SPEAKER_04]: The guide opens the doors, the forest or the rest of nature is the therapist.
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_04]: So on invitation
[SPEAKER_04]: might, and so we set it up very broadly because it's important to meet yourself where you are in your relationship with the rest of nature.
[SPEAKER_04]: If you feel, I don't know what this is, that's where you are.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: So an invitation might be something like wander out, find a tree,
[SPEAKER_04]: It's very loose.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think I did write in the book my first.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I really thought I knew what this was going to be.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was like, ah, I get it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I know.
[SPEAKER_04]: Code.
[SPEAKER_04]: You were all up here about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, I love nature, I'm out in nature.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I have a notation practice.
[SPEAKER_04]: I know what, my, like I did the whole thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I went up to this tree.
[SPEAKER_04]: And my experience was,
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know how to do this.
[SPEAKER_04]: What does this mean?
[SPEAKER_04]: Why are there so many ants?
[SPEAKER_04]: Am I doing this right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like how long do I have to be here?
[SPEAKER_04]: I did not understand.
[SPEAKER_04]: It took repetition and yes, a little more education and a lot more mentorship and invitations to allow me to step through these barriers, step through the bars of the cage to understand that
[SPEAKER_04]: the tree is going to affect me in some way.
[SPEAKER_04]: In some way, and it's, of course, it's different every time.
[SPEAKER_04]: And like I'm saying, it's not like the tree is going to talk to me.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I mean, some people do hear, I will notice an impulse to touch the bark or to feel the leaves.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm just allowing that to be in the realm of conversation.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, which is, we're just talking about non-verbal, you know, and even human to human.
[SPEAKER_04]: Non-verbal is where we get most of our information.
[SPEAKER_04]: We get it through tone of voice, we get it through facial expression, we get it through body, gesture, we get it through fair mones, like there's all of the communication that we do
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: So allowing ourselves to remember that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And this is again where this type of nature therapy helps them awful lot with human relationships.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, because we again come with more of a sense of respect, curiosity, kindness, listening, well, openness.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, openness.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, like you have to be really in a place of openness to be
[SPEAKER_03]: Conversing with a treat.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Can you share some of the people you work with anonymously?
[SPEAKER_03]: Of course.
[SPEAKER_03]: Some experiences that come back to you that kind of affirm that people have breakthroughs on this.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you know what I'm asking?
[SPEAKER_03]: I think so.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Can you be late in
[SPEAKER_03]: where someone has actually had a breakthrough on this.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I want to also really point out that this isn't for clients.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, my clients, some of them do join in on this and some of them don't.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is, again, it's not me as a therapist doing this to a person.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is me as a guide, threading this in for anyone, everyone.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but I just want to say that because this isn't like this is deeper than a treatment plan to me.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is rewiring the foundation then as a clinician have a treatment plan with all the things that I've learned as a clinician.
[SPEAKER_04]: Underneath it though is yeah, this opportunity to let people discover going back to what you were saying.
[SPEAKER_04]: their love for the rest of nature and their freedom to act on that love, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: So if we're talking about a break through, it's as simple as, I feel so happy.
[SPEAKER_04]: I feel relaxed.
[SPEAKER_04]: I have a memory of a time
[SPEAKER_04]: When I used to sit in a tree and this tree is reminding me of how that tree is a child really held me through some painful stuff.
[SPEAKER_04]: Again, this all feels like it's much more about permission to let us talk to each other about the love that we might feel but hide.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, because we don't want to be ridiculed, we're made fun of, or called, you know, like, my gosh, people always, oh, you're a tree hugger.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah, crunchy.
[SPEAKER_04]: So all kind of disparaging remarks keeps us from talking to each other about what we feel, what we feel coming from an elastic with trees.
[SPEAKER_04]: One interesting example is,
[SPEAKER_04]: there was an invitation on my training and there were 20 of us and the invitation was it was a kind of like a grove of trees and they actually kind of made a circle or a half circle.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so we were allowed to encounter each of the trees for a month, you know, like we had five minutes or so with one tree and then go to the next tree and the next tree, next tree, you know, so we're just having these encounters.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then when we came back together to witness each other's experience, we all had the same responses from the trees.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we all felt like, oh, yeah, that tree doesn't not want to talk.
[SPEAKER_04]: That tree is saying, not playing this tree very friendly.
[SPEAKER_04]: This tree was talking about this.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that was really startling to me.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think all of us, that's very firming.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, it's very affirming.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it also allowed us to know we're not making it up because we weren't being told, oh, that tree is really honorary, go, visit it.
[SPEAKER_04]: We were just like, just go hang out with the tree and we all came back with a similar experience.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it breaks a lot of the bars of that cage because it shows that we're all picking up on something and we're not like, like, psychics.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're just people going out and seeing what we feel.
[SPEAKER_03]: This reminds me something you said a few minutes ago about the common idea that nature wants to drive us off the planet,
[SPEAKER_03]: And you said, no, it's not like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: In fact, there's evidence that nature is sad and engraving that it's lost humans.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I even jotted down a note here.
[SPEAKER_03]: There was an idea by a Dr. John Davis from the Ropa University, said that the idea that the greater than human world might experience having lost us.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I find that so heartbreaking employment, that cracks me open, you know, to think that they're being out there that are sad and what they would have to be sad and, you know, assuming the sentience, which we understand to be reality,
[SPEAKER_03]: grieving the loss of their partnership with the humans.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's heartbreaking.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And again, we know that's true when we go away from home either for a day or a vacation.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we come back in our pets are so excited to see us.
[SPEAKER_04]: They've missed us.
[SPEAKER_04]: We know that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then there's scientific
[SPEAKER_04]: can tell when even when we're far away that we're approaching and that they kind of perk up in a certain way.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, so again, I'm calling that love.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, to call it whatever you want, but they're responding to us being gone and us returning and again, for me,
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't see any reason to want to hold onto a belief that we're not loved by the rest of nature in the same way that we love.
[SPEAKER_04]: Whoever we encounter, flowers, the rose bushes, we have a lot of jasmine that's planted around or orange blossoms or the sunshine or sparkling on the water.
[SPEAKER_04]: joyful in awe or uplifted by the natural world.
[SPEAKER_04]: And there's no reason to think that it isn't reciprocated.
[SPEAKER_03]: It really isn't.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's all just a thought, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think one affirming thing that we're seeing and hearing is, as soon as we embrace the idea of partnership,
[SPEAKER_03]: partnership with the rest of nature, reclaiming our integration with it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Then we very, very quickly see response, and I'm thinking in terms of like if, say, you know, working with the land in some way, planting, this is just a random example, but say planting a few natives in your yard.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my goodness, they're response from the other than human world.
[SPEAKER_03]: Suddenly birds, bugs, bees, growth, better flood, all this stuff, all of a sudden, it's like yay, yay, you're getting it and we're here and if you're tuned into that, it's very encouraging and it makes, to me it feels like, you know, the earth is asking us
[SPEAKER_03]: And a heartfelt way.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's like, you know, what I said a few minutes ago about, you know, it's different from conservation.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's different from even environmentalism.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Correct me if I'm wrong with that's sort of a, again, a divisive sort of duality, like, you know, we have the power to bring back this bird species.
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: There are things we can do to help and all of that, but this is making any sense.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, and I said, yeah, and so it's again, it's the mindset.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so you can be a conservationist, but it's the mindset, and that's what I'm,
[SPEAKER_04]: asking especially for your listeners because I kind of get a sense that they're probably very on board with this, but just to pay even closer attention to ways in which you divide yourself.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll tell you a story.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is one that I learned recently.
[SPEAKER_04]: One of the offerings that I do is like kind of a deep dive cohort for the book that I wrote, so I'm calling it book study in re-rooting cohort.
[SPEAKER_04]: And in the cohort, each person has another than human study body.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the cohort
[SPEAKER_04]: more than human beings, learning together.
[SPEAKER_04]: One of the study buddies that I chose this time, I happened to find in my house a jumping spider.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I saw an yesterday in the garden.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and I was so enamored with it and I was so excited that this jumping spider looked to be so comfortable in my living room and I was like, okay, I'm not going to do anything I'm just going to leave it alone.
[SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, they walked around the room, walked around this couch, what somewhere else, and then by what about my day, and then I can't see it anymore.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's gone.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's somewhere in my house, but I don't know where it is.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so I felt this longing, oh, am I going to see it again?
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, it shows up in the bathroom.
[SPEAKER_04]: which I was shocked that I could even see it because it was gray and I happened to have rugs on the bathroom floor that are also gray and I was like oh my god how did I even see it but I was so excited again oh it's still alive it's still in my house so special and then you know I can't see it again they is go by and I'm wondering am I ever going to see it again and it shows
[SPEAKER_04]: It is again and then it was like I have a cat so I'm like I want to make sure that the spider doesn't get you know that the cat doesn't get at it So I was thinking you know what what where should I put it where should I put this spider and I was trying to listen in But I could tell that I really wanted it to stay in my house So put it on the window blush and Then as soon as I did I could see
[SPEAKER_04]: that I had put it where there's a screen.
[SPEAKER_04]: It can't get out and now it's in my room.
[SPEAKER_04]: So close to the outside, but not able to get there.
[SPEAKER_04]: And something shifted in me.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, what did I just do?
[SPEAKER_04]: There's something's felt wrong.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I thought, OK, I'm going to move it, but then it was gone.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I thought,
[SPEAKER_04]: How am I going to find it?
[SPEAKER_04]: And now, because I have a kind of a window that slides, like I can't even move this window because it's somewhere in the tracking.
[SPEAKER_04]: And if I close the window or open the window, I could kill it.
[SPEAKER_04]: From like, I don't know what I'm going to do.
[SPEAKER_04]: In about an hour, I saw it again.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I thought, okay, this time I'm taking it outside.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I got it in.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, like I put a cup over a glass over it and a piece of paper and I took it outside and I let it go.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, why am I telling the story?
[SPEAKER_04]: Because what I understood is even though I loved it so much.
[SPEAKER_04]: I wanted to own it.
[SPEAKER_04]: He wanted it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I wanted to say, you could enjoy it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that was a lesson in another version of domination.
[SPEAKER_04]: even though it was coming from so much love, I could see, ah, I didn't want it to just go outside.
[SPEAKER_04]: I wanted it in my house because I loved it, you know?
[SPEAKER_04]: So this is what I'm saying, like the layers of just wondering, wherever one is in this journey of wanting to return to a non-domination paradigm,
[SPEAKER_04]: just notice how it shows up in your own mind.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm just saying this one because it was really like, it was heartbreaking too, because I had to confront that something that I thought was me being loving, wanting to own it.
[SPEAKER_03]: It reminds me of like, you know, when we're children, and we're so fascinated and enamored and I'll let with the fireflies, and we wanted to put them in jars.
[SPEAKER_03]: We had to top on the jar and punch holes in the jar,
[SPEAKER_03]: put him by the bed and watch him online.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that wasn't good.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I hear that.
[SPEAKER_03]: It creeps in because again, we're so inculcated with it.
[SPEAKER_03]: It is in ourselves.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you use the word unlearning.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's so much unlearning here.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that sort of circles me back around at the language.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you talk about language in your book.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was struck.
[SPEAKER_03]: with immediately in the book how you defraise you use is the rest of nature, humans and the rest of nature.
[SPEAKER_03]: This already sets your writing apart from other things I've read about because we're constantly hearing about, we have to reclaim or rediscover our connection to nature.
[SPEAKER_03]: But to me, the our connection to nature, there's the division in that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the rest of nature that sort of
[SPEAKER_03]: to care of it in my mind.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, other people might not read it that way.
[SPEAKER_03]: But there was almost like an ease in my body and reading that because I'm always fighting in my mind with these, you know, here about art.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're disconnected with nature.
[SPEAKER_03]: We need to reclaim nature.
[SPEAKER_03]: Children need to be in nature.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, they do, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: But it's not so that they can learn about nature, learn about the bugs, need to know that they are in nature.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're exchanging oxygen and all of this.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it is,
[SPEAKER_04]: it's a steep curve and you know it's for us to do together as many people that feel any kind of stirring around wanting to live like this, wanting to unlearn, wanting to join, you know, link up with each other and the rest of nature to learn more how do we
[SPEAKER_04]: What else do we want to unlearn?
[SPEAKER_04]: Is it's a group effort?
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a community effort.
[SPEAKER_04]: I did want to say that phrasing the rest of nature I learned from Linda Bezel.
[SPEAKER_04]: So she was the one that first introduced me to that way of unlearning the division.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then another thing that I feel like when I've done presentations and things where I say to people and more in a room, I say, you know.
[SPEAKER_04]: how many of you, you know, like, are we in nature right now?
[SPEAKER_04]: And then to remember, your body is nature.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're always in nature because our body is nature.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like, ourselves as nature is either indoors or outdoors, but we are always in nature.
[SPEAKER_03]: so interesting that the phrase going out into nature is dualistic.
[SPEAKER_03]: And in your book you mentioned that I do have owning land.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a very divisive phrase, even though it's a reality in our culture.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: But just the idea of it.
[SPEAKER_03]: the dominance, the ownership, the dominion, all those ideas, and this idea, and this phrase we hear so often, nature is good for us.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's good for us.
[SPEAKER_03]: It lowers our blood pressure.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm laughing not to make fun or ridicule just because it's just so true, and it's just so habitual.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we're talking about unlearning.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's just good to to realize the challenges to
[SPEAKER_04]: change the language because that does start to shift it right like the story that we're telling ourselves is what motivates our behavior even if it's the best behavior in the world if we're dividing ourselves we're not moving the needle forward right.
[SPEAKER_03]: we're still framing it in the old way.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right, in a broken system, a broken apart system, we want to unify.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the alternative phrases are difficult.
[SPEAKER_03]: The rest of nature is up beginning.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think it's a good big, a really good one.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Or just to imagine, like saying a sentence, like, if we are out of doors, like,
[SPEAKER_04]: yeah, you know, I am nature with a tree.
[SPEAKER_04]: What do we do together?
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, our very skin, the framework of our bodies, our skeletons, our musculature and the skin, it does separate us from the atmosphere.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we can appreciate that, but understanding that all of that is one in the same with all of it.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's very philosophical, but maybe not go down that rabbit hole.
[SPEAKER_04]: It does blow our mind, and that, in some way, is good, because it's like breaking out of the cage to really understand, yes, the skin may be is separate from the atmosphere, but maybe not, because the atmosphere is in our blood.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, if oxygen, if we didn't have oxygen in our skin, it would be dead.
[SPEAKER_03]: It is my voice, like that emoji with the gun.
[SPEAKER_03]: are you familiar with Paul Hawkin?
[SPEAKER_03]: So he's written several books and we interviewed him a couple of years ago.
[SPEAKER_03]: He read the book Carbon and he he's had a lot of experience with indigenous cultures and something in one of our conversations really stood out to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: So he was talking to an
[SPEAKER_03]: the man said in their language, in the indigenous language, they did not even have a word for wheat.
[SPEAKER_03]: They didn't even have a language way of separating their humanness from the rest of the creation.
[SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's really fascinating.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right, and that is where I think not to appropriate anything, but to understand that there are living cultures that have a language that doesn't do this.
[SPEAKER_04]: Aboriginal, you know, there's a wonderful book called San Talk, speaking about the symbols
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, for example, the spiral is one that we're all pretty familiar and honestly seem to be drawn to, but so that these languages that are land-based or not separated, yeah, they really capture the things that our mind has trained us away from.
[SPEAKER_03]: Have you ever had any experience with an indigenous community?
[SPEAKER_03]: Have we been amongst them?
[SPEAKER_04]: not in the way that we're talking about, instead of a lot of it still, at least in my lifetime has been protected from a white person, and I respect that.
[SPEAKER_04]: But the point being that we don't have to think the way we think.
[SPEAKER_04]: We can unlearn the language that we have that creates division
[SPEAKER_04]: like let's come back to what's the outcome of this.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not just, oh, we can be divided or we can be unified.
[SPEAKER_04]: The division creates suffering, the division creates loneliness, anxiety, depression, you know, a lot of things that
[SPEAKER_04]: sprout from that addictions, other kinds of anti-social behavior, so there's a real price to be paid for this division.
[SPEAKER_04]: And again, we don't have to wait.
[SPEAKER_04]: We can't.
[SPEAKER_04]: change that now by going out of doors and saying I am nature going to visit the rest of nature and what being is attracting my attention and maybe it's a sound or a smell and whatever that is I'm going to go hang out with it and and to see what it wants.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's another thing Paul Hawkins said when we said that we do you know if we were talking about this having a similar
[SPEAKER_03]: mm-hmm they mad at conversation and he just a go outside and here we are on these computers go outside but this is Coming up more and more, I think he's becoming more and more prevalent and more people here at the more we talk about it mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's so much in your book.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have like four pages of notes just from this afternoon Revisiting and your book was a revelation to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: I felt like it was a real gift it appeared out of nowhere
[SPEAKER_03]: I got an email from your publisher or something.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: So still said, do you like to read this book?
[SPEAKER_03]: And I said, yeah, there's so anything.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'll just say as a little exciting news that the book just won a gold notalist.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and I mean, that regulations, thank you.
[SPEAKER_04]: That one I really wanted.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I feel so grateful.
[SPEAKER_04]: It feels like such a confirmation like you're saying that this way of being, it's spreading wider and wider.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think more and more people want to leave behind this tent of torture paper that we're in.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, and you know, there's so much to talk now about our nervous systems being dysregulated and how can you regulate your nervous system?
[SPEAKER_03]: I solved something on social media about how.
[SPEAKER_03]: Watch out for that.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's another sort of capitalistic angle.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like you need to buy this program and that program and this will cure you if you're dysregulated nervous system and why don't we just all seek to reclaim our place in the web of creation.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're there anyway.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, well, this is again where I feel like our own mental health is our own, again, our right and our responsibility at this point in time, our responsibility to go and see what thoughts are causing harm to myself and innocently harming other, like not intentionally harming others.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I think there's a lot more reason.
[SPEAKER_04]: to change, then not to change.
[SPEAKER_04]: And again, to your point, original point, our heart.
[SPEAKER_04]: Love.
[SPEAKER_04]: Love is what's newling this love that fuels this change.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I agree.
[SPEAKER_03]: What a great place.
[SPEAKER_03]: to conclude this conversation.
[SPEAKER_03]: I would love for there to be more, but I really appreciate your time today talking to me and I've been just very excited about talking to you since I read your book two, three months ago now.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then you came to our cohort and spoke and people love that.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're still talking about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my God.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's a wonderful book and everyone listening is the nature embedded mind.
[SPEAKER_03]: pulling you in, which if you're listening, I imagine it is.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, thank you again Julie, I appreciate it, and we'll be talking later, I hope.
[SPEAKER_04]: I hope so too, and thank you so much for giving me an opportunity to say more.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for tuning in, calling in, and spreading the good dirt.
[SPEAKER_01]: We love hearing from you.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can reach our listener voicemail at 4443-459-1950.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's 4443-459-1950.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can find this number in our show notes and in our Instagram profile.
[SPEAKER_01]: This show is produced by Lady Farmer, a slow living lifestyle community.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the original music is composed in perform by John Kingsley.
[SPEAKER_00]: For more from Lady Firmer, follow us on Instagram at We Are Lady Firmer.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's We Are Lady Firmer, or join us online at www.ladyfirmer.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll see you next time on the Good Dirt.
[SPEAKER_00]: Goodbye!