WEBVTT 00:00.287 --> 00:11.491 [SPEAKER_03]: When your cat is acting weird, or your dog is being loud, or your turtle moves slow, or Slow, Ted. 00:11.691 --> 00:15.993 [SPEAKER_03]: Your cat seems thirsty, or Slow down, buddy. 00:16.193 --> 00:21.375 [SPEAKER_03]: Or your puppy is acting clumsy, or Day or night. 00:21.755 --> 00:24.076 [SPEAKER_03]: If you don't know what's wrong, no where to go. 00:38.971 --> 00:45.056 [SPEAKER_04]: Welcome back to Feeding the Mouth of Bytube, a weekly podcast guide on parenting teens and launching them into the world. 00:45.616 --> 00:50.760 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm Cynthia Gannon, and as always, I'm joined by psychologists and author, Dr. Ken Wilgus. 00:51.120 --> 00:52.441 [SPEAKER_04]: Dr. Ken, welcome to your show. 00:53.802 --> 00:54.683 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Cynthia. 00:54.783 --> 00:55.483 [SPEAKER_01]: It's our show. 00:57.460 --> 00:59.323 [SPEAKER_04]: Let's be honest, everyone. 00:59.463 --> 01:11.079 [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, were you trying to just get to the coldest place you could possibly be this time of year in the winter, like you live in Texas where it's basically right now, I literally could be wearing sunglasses. 01:11.139 --> 01:12.661 [SPEAKER_04]: It's so bright in my office. 01:12.801 --> 01:13.623 [SPEAKER_04]: And you went to New York. 01:14.358 --> 01:21.564 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Antarctica was too expensive, so we just went to New York where the high was like 29, I think. 01:22.064 --> 01:23.686 [SPEAKER_04]: And it probably felt like two though. 01:23.826 --> 01:25.547 [SPEAKER_04]: Like they say the high is 29. 01:25.887 --> 01:27.709 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and then you're like, that's not 29. 01:27.949 --> 01:32.052 [SPEAKER_01]: No, it's the kind that I've got my gloves on, but my fingers are still hurting. 01:32.072 --> 01:38.458 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, wow, this is, I'm sure people that are from very cold climates are listening going, you guys. 01:39.018 --> 01:40.019 [SPEAKER_01]: need to just shut up. 01:40.139 --> 01:41.879 [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I was in New York. 01:41.920 --> 01:43.961 [SPEAKER_01]: You were in New York not long before that. 01:44.441 --> 01:44.661 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 01:44.921 --> 01:46.462 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, yeah, it was nice. 01:46.522 --> 01:48.123 [SPEAKER_04]: It gets, it gets chilly there. 01:48.163 --> 01:49.243 [SPEAKER_04]: That is for sure. 01:50.384 --> 01:54.426 [SPEAKER_04]: And whenever they say like 29, I always feel like they need to be like, just shoot straight with me. 01:54.546 --> 01:56.147 [SPEAKER_04]: It feels too if you're from Texas. 01:56.287 --> 01:56.627 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay. 01:56.767 --> 01:57.767 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, negative three. 01:58.128 --> 01:58.368 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. 01:58.428 --> 01:58.608 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. 01:59.108 --> 02:02.790 [SPEAKER_04]: And so, you know, I pulled out all the, I don't know, the long and I thought I was going skiing. 02:02.810 --> 02:03.951 [SPEAKER_04]: I had on the long underwear. 02:04.011 --> 02:04.451 [SPEAKER_04]: I had on the 02:06.872 --> 02:07.472 [SPEAKER_01]: any interrupt. 02:07.533 --> 02:09.013 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm stuck with Celsius. 02:09.094 --> 02:10.494 [SPEAKER_01]: I never know what it is. 02:10.875 --> 02:12.876 [SPEAKER_01]: The whole world knows what that is, but we don't. 02:12.976 --> 02:14.197 [SPEAKER_04]: So we're not going to learn it. 02:14.357 --> 02:16.198 [SPEAKER_04]: So we just like take our bedding thing. 02:16.538 --> 02:17.419 [SPEAKER_04]: We're like, it's right. 02:17.759 --> 02:20.461 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I thought it was yeah, yeah, didn't know. 02:21.301 --> 02:26.205 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, okay, this is kind of a funny little misfire redo on our part. 02:26.285 --> 02:31.528 [SPEAKER_04]: So we did a, we did a podcast on the therapy that we taped last year. 02:31.948 --> 02:33.449 [SPEAKER_04]: And then for various 02:34.910 --> 02:50.695 [SPEAKER_04]: quickly released it pulled it back because there's an error in a releasing and now we're retaping and releasing it because it was that important and so anyway we just want you to know the behind the scenes that yeah we just right sometimes then sometimes a lot of times we don't so here we go again. 02:51.234 --> 02:53.696 [SPEAKER_01]: Yep, yeah, and it was it's actually was kind of fun. 02:53.756 --> 02:56.798 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't I don't think we beat ourselves up too much for those things. 02:57.298 --> 02:58.359 [SPEAKER_04]: No, we don't we don't. 02:58.759 --> 03:06.404 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and well and when when when my daughter's one of our employees and and miss released one and all then we got some good laughs about it too. 03:06.484 --> 03:13.029 [SPEAKER_04]: So we're back and we're retaping it because it's a different time of year, but also because the topic so important. 03:13.069 --> 03:15.470 [SPEAKER_04]: So I bet this time we're going to be really good. 03:16.131 --> 03:17.392 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and a redo. 03:17.512 --> 03:18.272 [SPEAKER_01]: We've got to be good. 03:18.292 --> 03:18.993 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure we're good. 03:19.337 --> 03:21.158 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, well, then, then let's go with that. 03:21.279 --> 03:30.646 [SPEAKER_04]: But okay, so we got a reader email that talking about therapy and sending our kids like to counseling that kind of thing. 03:31.006 --> 03:35.469 [SPEAKER_04]: And so I wanted to read it and see if you would weigh in on this. 03:36.030 --> 03:36.210 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 03:37.632 --> 03:39.114 [SPEAKER_04]: It would be helpful if I could find it. 03:39.174 --> 03:39.534 [SPEAKER_04]: Here we go. 03:39.615 --> 03:40.315 [SPEAKER_04]: Here we go everyone. 03:40.335 --> 03:40.836 [SPEAKER_04]: Don't panic. 03:41.016 --> 03:41.276 [SPEAKER_04]: All right. 03:42.197 --> 03:49.004 [SPEAKER_04]: I have a 16 soon to be 17 year old who has told me he refuses to get a counselor and tell some random person about his problems. 03:49.245 --> 03:50.206 [SPEAKER_04]: He's not in a good place. 03:50.686 --> 03:53.089 [SPEAKER_04]: His dad has has some hard stuff. 03:53.109 --> 03:55.932 [SPEAKER_04]: We don't have to go into the details of that, but he's got some hard stuff for this dad. 03:56.993 --> 03:58.274 [SPEAKER_04]: He's got emotional scars. 03:58.494 --> 04:01.236 [SPEAKER_04]: It's like he just can't be happy ever anymore. 04:01.676 --> 04:03.297 [SPEAKER_04]: Is there a point where you force him to go? 04:03.718 --> 04:11.303 [SPEAKER_04]: But then there's the risk of severing the relationship, what little relationship we have left, and what if I'm paying and he refuses to talk? 04:11.943 --> 04:14.726 [SPEAKER_04]: So, that's a great question. 04:15.226 --> 04:16.747 [SPEAKER_04]: Do we force him to go to therapy? 04:17.485 --> 04:27.448 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, so I think you and I were talking a minute ago, I'm a little concerned about how often people answer such questions by just going to random sources on the internet. 04:28.702 --> 04:37.185 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious, of course, before I weigh in, what does chat GPTC is the answer to that, because that's the no-all thing isn't it? 04:37.686 --> 04:38.826 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I mean, it is mine. 04:39.466 --> 04:40.827 [SPEAKER_04]: You see how it's working over here. 04:41.787 --> 04:47.669 [SPEAKER_04]: But no, yeah, you and I were talking about that, and maybe even a segment where we just say, like, you know, where do you get that? 04:47.789 --> 04:48.570 [SPEAKER_04]: What's this advice? 04:48.590 --> 04:54.292 [SPEAKER_04]: And so I put in chat GPTC this similar question, like best advice for whether my kidney's therapy, 04:54.892 --> 05:01.635 [SPEAKER_04]: And if we should do it, and here's the first thing, the chat GPT said therapy isn't a last resort, it's a support. 05:01.755 --> 05:03.376 [SPEAKER_04]: Don't wait until things are bad enough. 05:03.716 --> 05:10.880 [SPEAKER_04]: If something is disrupting your child's daily functioning, sleep, school, friendships, family life, that alone is enough reason to get help. 05:12.607 --> 05:12.887 [SPEAKER_04]: thoughts. 05:13.188 --> 05:14.769 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, that's about half right. 05:14.990 --> 05:20.636 [SPEAKER_01]: As usual, it doesn't ask what age or what stage of life your child is in. 05:21.296 --> 05:23.479 [SPEAKER_01]: But also, I've learned about chat GPT. 05:23.519 --> 05:29.305 [SPEAKER_01]: If you add, well, actually, there's some research that shows there's negative effects of therapy that is not needed. 05:29.705 --> 05:53.548 [SPEAKER_01]: chat will go ah you're right I I stand corrected and it'll just go with whatever you say so it's not a great resource the answer to should I force my teenager go to therapy and this mom's example included some really difficult things in their family so it's not just you know my teenager seems a little down it's like you know he's really gone through some stuff 05:54.448 --> 05:55.709 [SPEAKER_01]: shouldn't he be in therapy? 05:56.009 --> 06:02.533 [SPEAKER_01]: So the answer there it actually comes to I was thinking about this this is morning What do we mean by therapy? 06:02.593 --> 06:04.354 [SPEAKER_01]: What we mean is psychotherapy? 06:04.594 --> 06:18.522 [SPEAKER_01]: There's lots of therapies There's massage therapy aromatherapy physical therapy psychotherapy If if massage therapy is applying massage to Improving psychotherapies actually applying words. 06:18.902 --> 06:20.023 [SPEAKER_01]: It is talking 06:20.883 --> 06:22.984 [SPEAKER_01]: And by implication a relationship. 06:23.504 --> 06:33.406 [SPEAKER_01]: So when should I force my teenager to go and talk with someone that he does not want to talk to and is not wanting advice for anything? 06:33.746 --> 06:38.527 [SPEAKER_01]: And the answer that is probably it's probably not going to be useful. 06:38.627 --> 06:42.588 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's very often the answer is no, you might offer it. 06:44.095 --> 06:47.878 [SPEAKER_01]: But when do you say, look, I don't care that you don't want to go. 06:48.999 --> 06:49.659 [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to go. 06:49.980 --> 06:51.321 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's the big difference. 06:51.341 --> 06:52.942 [SPEAKER_01]: Because it's just words. 06:53.002 --> 06:58.887 [SPEAKER_01]: And as an adolescent specialist that's been doing this for 35 years, I'll just reveal behind the scenes. 06:59.187 --> 07:03.590 [SPEAKER_01]: We don't have magic phrases that kind of put teenagers into a days. 07:03.951 --> 07:06.012 [SPEAKER_01]: And they walk out going, I see now. 07:06.392 --> 07:08.214 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll do whatever you think is right. 07:08.374 --> 07:09.475 [SPEAKER_01]: That's not what happens. 07:09.995 --> 07:11.837 [SPEAKER_01]: We're good at avoiding control battles. 07:12.497 --> 07:16.701 [SPEAKER_01]: and articulating kind of ways that a teenager would go, yeah, that's my experience. 07:17.001 --> 07:18.302 [SPEAKER_01]: But that's hardly magic. 07:19.123 --> 07:19.303 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. 07:19.603 --> 07:29.311 [SPEAKER_01]: So the first answer is it's it's very common that you may really want and be concerned of wish your teenager would talk to somebody, but it's probably not worth pushing it. 07:29.892 --> 07:33.935 [SPEAKER_01]: They're with some exceptions and that's probably the thing we talk about. 07:33.975 --> 07:40.801 [SPEAKER_01]: So mostly the answer is no, you might offer it, but I wouldn't push it on except for a few circumstances. 07:41.217 --> 08:01.770 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and I think we build up in our head that like if only they would go to counseling then this would be resolved and you're saying like yeah, we don't have any magic formula They may still sit there not talk with us, but also in addition to that there can be some negative side effects if you will too sending a kid right therapy talk to us about that 08:02.274 --> 08:21.756 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that came from Abigail Schreier's book, Bad Therapy, that I think is worth it just because there's a chapter, Iatrogenic effects, and people don't even think about that word, but what that means is that when you seek treatment for something like a gunshot wound and you go to an operating room, 08:22.699 --> 08:25.503 [SPEAKER_01]: it's a great place to be helped with your gunshot wound. 08:25.563 --> 08:32.291 [SPEAKER_01]: However, it also is a place that has a higher percentage of certain staff infections that you really kind of don't get anywhere else. 08:32.692 --> 08:33.973 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's the side effects. 08:34.234 --> 08:40.501 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, obviously, if you're saved from dying of a gunshot, it will take the staff infection risk. 08:41.062 --> 08:49.451 [SPEAKER_01]: But when it's, you know, I cut my finger, should I go into an operating room, the risks can almost outweigh the benefit. 08:49.831 --> 08:51.653 [SPEAKER_01]: So therapy is much like that. 08:52.013 --> 09:00.983 [SPEAKER_01]: What people need to know is that their psychotherapy, applying a relationship in words can be very helpful when things are really bad. 09:03.545 --> 09:10.109 [SPEAKER_01]: But for just any and everything, it can be a little bit like you cut your finger in a paper cut and you're going on an operating room. 09:10.430 --> 09:14.873 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not, it can create an over-focus on your internal experience. 09:15.593 --> 09:19.676 [SPEAKER_01]: It can sometimes with therapists that are not very experienced. 09:20.276 --> 09:27.861 [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, increase a teenager's sense of how much they're suffering because of these horrible parents. 09:27.941 --> 09:31.684 [SPEAKER_01]: That's most therapists do better than just to agree with everything the teenager says. 09:32.584 --> 09:39.469 [SPEAKER_01]: Most of the time what you run the risk of is I went ahead and forced him anyway The therapist was pretty good. 09:40.329 --> 09:44.672 [SPEAKER_01]: He didn't mind going after that Did it change a lot? 09:44.732 --> 09:45.473 [SPEAKER_01]: No, not really. 09:45.993 --> 09:47.134 [SPEAKER_01]: You know how much was it? 09:47.494 --> 09:54.178 [SPEAKER_01]: Hundreds of dollars so you know, it's not like you're gonna wreck your kid by going But the bigger risk is is this really worth it? 09:54.538 --> 09:58.501 [SPEAKER_01]: So here's the things to think about and chat GPT kind of got this right 09:59.976 --> 10:02.118 [SPEAKER_01]: um, you do wait until things are bad. 10:02.818 --> 10:10.384 [SPEAKER_01]: In other words, a teenager saying I need to therapy uh, is in not in itself a good example of well then you need to go. 10:10.764 --> 10:14.747 [SPEAKER_01]: Usually if they really want to talk to somebody, most parents are like, yeah, well, we'll make that happen. 10:15.427 --> 10:27.596 [SPEAKER_01]: But the teenager that doesn't want to go but is having serious life functioning problems like they were expelled from school They no longer go to any kind of social event. 10:27.636 --> 10:29.037 [SPEAKER_01]: They've dropped out of the sport. 10:29.077 --> 10:34.501 [SPEAKER_01]: They were invested in Certainly, you know, they were caught again with drugs. 10:34.961 --> 10:38.263 [SPEAKER_01]: Those are points that the the answer is no you have to go 10:39.905 --> 10:40.505 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, why? 10:40.845 --> 10:44.008 [SPEAKER_01]: Because the police brought you home last weekend. 10:44.128 --> 10:46.069 [SPEAKER_01]: Remember, that's why you're going. 10:46.410 --> 10:51.854 [SPEAKER_01]: Believe it or not, that's actually easier for a teenager to accept than parents that try the look. 10:52.174 --> 10:53.035 [SPEAKER_01]: I wish I could go. 10:53.335 --> 10:54.276 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just good for you. 10:54.556 --> 10:55.777 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't want to. 10:56.237 --> 10:59.960 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't agree with that, and so it's not going to help them. 11:00.520 --> 11:05.084 [SPEAKER_01]: The better answer is, I know you don't want to go, and we told you you didn't have to, 11:09.247 --> 11:20.853 [SPEAKER_01]: And in that circumstance, the therapist will tell you this, you can tell them you have to go at least once, maybe twice, but if it is completely useless, you won't have to keep going. 11:21.394 --> 11:22.054 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah. 11:22.774 --> 11:27.577 [SPEAKER_04]: I was thinking about this question when last time, I'm not sure I asked it. 11:27.597 --> 11:30.619 [SPEAKER_04]: Someone asked at this time, which is why we're so much better on the second round. 11:39.081 --> 11:39.461 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right. 11:39.821 --> 11:49.585 [SPEAKER_04]: And so my question is, is there some times where we just need to be focusing on the parental aspect and we need to be going to someone like you and doing the parent side versus being so focused on the kids side? 11:49.605 --> 11:52.847 [SPEAKER_04]: Like what made you transition to practice and what's the value of that? 11:53.147 --> 11:54.307 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a good question. 11:54.607 --> 11:55.288 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, things. 11:55.628 --> 11:56.368 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 11:56.508 --> 12:00.650 [SPEAKER_01]: First, I transition away from taking new teenage clients about. 12:01.450 --> 12:07.592 [SPEAKER_01]: a couple of years ago, because I was reducing the number of days a week that I was seeing clients. 12:07.872 --> 12:14.194 [SPEAKER_01]: And when a teenager comes in, a new teenager, it's often kind of triage, something really big as happening. 12:14.794 --> 12:17.595 [SPEAKER_01]: And you can't say, okay, this was a good session. 12:17.615 --> 12:19.776 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll see in six weeks, which is my next opening. 12:20.216 --> 12:26.738 [SPEAKER_01]: So, and then secondly, I definitely did not continue seeing teenagers, 12:29.659 --> 12:34.163 [SPEAKER_01]: And there will be therapists that will not agree with me on this and that's fine. 12:34.383 --> 12:40.508 [SPEAKER_01]: But I just don't see how you can do good therapy with an adolescent virtually. 12:41.569 --> 12:42.309 [SPEAKER_01]: There are rare eggs. 12:42.449 --> 12:45.011 [SPEAKER_01]: You can basically, you can consult virtually. 12:45.652 --> 12:55.940 [SPEAKER_01]: So if a teenager is like, I don't know how to study and I need help with something specific that is kind of coaching, then yeah, you could, you could kind of do that. 12:56.440 --> 13:02.146 [SPEAKER_01]: So when I'm dealing with parents, I rarely am dealing with parents in a sort of psychotherapy way. 13:02.206 --> 13:06.910 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, let's talk about your mother again and how's what's your heart rate right now? 13:07.390 --> 13:08.612 [SPEAKER_01]: That's not parenting. 13:08.652 --> 13:10.033 [SPEAKER_01]: That's, you know, parent coaching. 13:10.714 --> 13:12.655 [SPEAKER_01]: And that can be done virtually. 13:12.736 --> 13:14.137 [SPEAKER_01]: So it has more to do with 13:15.377 --> 13:19.239 [SPEAKER_01]: What kind of psychotherapy is being done? 13:19.599 --> 13:23.981 [SPEAKER_01]: And the kind that involves real connection relationship in the same room. 13:24.721 --> 13:26.162 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the main reason I stop doing that. 13:26.182 --> 13:28.243 [SPEAKER_01]: I just don't think teenagers benefit from that. 13:28.717 --> 13:28.917 [SPEAKER_04]: right. 13:29.297 --> 13:41.862 [SPEAKER_04]: And so I guess as a parent, someone's probably thinking this, I'm thinking this, as I've thought many times over the years, one of my kids either, any of them, any given point, I'm like, they could use a counselor right now. 13:41.902 --> 13:42.683 [SPEAKER_04]: That would be helpful. 13:43.043 --> 13:48.425 [SPEAKER_04]: But I've never once thought, maybe Mike, and I need to go to the counselor, like, not for our parents, 13:48.885 --> 13:50.767 [SPEAKER_01]: We've all thought it for you both. 13:50.827 --> 13:51.687 [SPEAKER_01]: I know, I know. 13:51.908 --> 13:52.488 [SPEAKER_01]: That's good. 13:52.508 --> 13:53.969 [SPEAKER_04]: That's good. 13:54.049 --> 13:55.751 [SPEAKER_04]: This is actually a therapy session. 13:55.791 --> 13:56.791 [SPEAKER_04]: It turns out first. 13:56.811 --> 13:57.212 [SPEAKER_04]: Cynthia. 13:57.272 --> 13:58.433 [SPEAKER_01]: It's an intervention. 13:58.553 --> 13:59.334 [SPEAKER_01]: That's what it is. 13:59.614 --> 14:13.425 [SPEAKER_04]: But so if someone's listening to like, well, gosh, I keep thinking my kidneys to go, but maybe my husband and I need to go to someone Is there something that that you think would to consider in that when When maybe it's just a parenting couching type situation? 14:14.162 --> 14:29.711 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, the general answer to that is that if you're having a major problem with your teenager, then, you know, you drag, I've spent years, they drag that teenager into the to my office in the waiting room, teenager didn't want to be their parents all apologetic. 14:30.171 --> 14:31.472 [SPEAKER_01]: that's never been hard for me. 14:31.572 --> 14:33.913 [SPEAKER_01]: I know exactly how to handle that by the end of the hour. 14:33.953 --> 14:36.694 [SPEAKER_01]: The teenager will be at least okay with talking to me. 14:37.774 --> 14:40.555 [SPEAKER_01]: But I will talk with the parents and the teenager first. 14:40.935 --> 14:42.476 [SPEAKER_01]: Then I talk alone with the teenager. 14:42.496 --> 14:43.596 [SPEAKER_01]: Then I talk alone in the parents. 14:43.956 --> 14:52.840 [SPEAKER_01]: The result of that evaluation sometimes says yet we need to mainly focus on the two of you as parents. 14:53.820 --> 14:57.042 [SPEAKER_01]: and your kid is not really in that much need for therapy. 14:57.302 --> 14:58.483 [SPEAKER_01]: That sometimes happens. 14:59.344 --> 15:04.247 [SPEAKER_01]: What never happens is I don't need to consult with the parents at all. 15:04.387 --> 15:05.407 [SPEAKER_01]: It's all the kid. 15:06.208 --> 15:08.529 [SPEAKER_01]: No, it's usually some combination. 15:08.549 --> 15:09.170 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay. 15:09.730 --> 15:19.216 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, but there are definitely times, think of it this way if your kid is not completely falling apart, but absolutely doesn't want to talk to a therapist. 15:19.963 --> 15:25.109 [SPEAKER_01]: then those are times that you can talk to a therapist and you can be kind of a therapist for your kid. 15:25.609 --> 15:42.487 [SPEAKER_01]: Coaching emotional support, that's not always a specialist psychologist thing, that can be, you know, parents that you learn how to communicate like we talk about in the book, uncle, safe people, it's not all psychotherapy. 15:42.982 --> 15:44.663 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, okay. 15:44.903 --> 16:00.909 [SPEAKER_04]: If in when at some point our kids go to a counselor a couple of quick questions for you on that one how do you find one and what if you can't afford one because almost never I feel like are they covered by insurance so help us walk through that a little bit. 16:01.769 --> 16:04.090 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so when they are covered by insurance 16:05.177 --> 16:26.652 [SPEAKER_01]: This is kind of a weird thing in my field, is that most all of us, you work toward where you can be from referral, like direct referrals, when you're on an insurance panel, that means that the insurance, they look you up. 16:27.453 --> 16:49.245 [SPEAKER_01]: They find, you know, you're within 10 miles of my house or I like the way your name sounds or whatever and then they come to see you and there's that there can be a higher rate of of hit and miss like oh, this is not what we thought so I tend to recommend that you try to find word of mouth somebody that I took my teenager to this person and it worked out well. 16:49.722 --> 17:12.775 [SPEAKER_01]: that can be and I've had parents send me a list from their insurance and I'll tell them who I know but usually it's the similar with a physician we've all I assume been to that doctor that it was on my list and man I couldn't believe it you know and and it wasn't good and I talked to my friend and went to this person. 17:13.315 --> 17:32.164 [SPEAKER_01]: The money part is absolutely, there is more therapy that is psychotherapy that is covered by insurance, but just to be honest, there is a higher percentage of therapists, psychologists, and masters of a therapist that are just getting started and that's kind of how they're getting their patients. 17:32.224 --> 17:34.165 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it can be a little hit and miss. 17:34.365 --> 17:41.288 [SPEAKER_01]: It sounds really critical, but it's just kind of, I think recommendation from people you trust is far better. 17:41.668 --> 17:41.808 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 17:41.828 --> 17:44.789 [SPEAKER_01]: Most of us have a sliding scale of some kind also. 17:45.550 --> 17:51.852 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not all as lost, but, but you know, it's, it's, it's better to know who you're going to see. 17:52.292 --> 17:52.492 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. 17:52.552 --> 17:55.553 [SPEAKER_04]: What I hear you saying, if you can't afford Dr. Ken, just come to me. 17:55.634 --> 17:57.734 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I don't have any degrees, but that's what I was saying. 17:57.854 --> 17:59.895 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you're like tier two, is that what we're saying? 18:00.215 --> 18:01.096 [SPEAKER_01]: Very, yeah. 18:01.216 --> 18:01.896 [SPEAKER_01]: Junior varsity. 18:02.872 --> 18:25.452 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome across America's highest suspension bridge, an exciting adventure awaits you above the Arkansas River on the famous Royal Gorge Bridge, and coming this spring, Royal Gorge is introducing Colorado's first clear floor gondola experience of breathtaking new way to take in panoramic views of the scenic Royal Gorge through a clear glass floor, and it's included with park admission at no extra costs. 18:25.592 --> 18:31.356 [SPEAKER_00]: We'll you dare to look down, visit RoyalGorgebridge.com to learn more and purchase tickets to take. 18:31.376 --> 18:32.257 [SPEAKER_00]: Come for the bridge. 18:32.397 --> 18:33.718 [SPEAKER_00]: Stay for the adventure. 18:34.058 --> 18:39.042 [SPEAKER_02]: Summer savings just got a whole lot more exciting at Bay of the Art, introducing the Bogobash. 18:39.322 --> 18:44.746 [SPEAKER_02]: Every Thursday, a brand new buy one get 130% off offer on a featured furniture category. 18:44.846 --> 18:49.210 [SPEAKER_02]: The twist, each deal is available for just five days before a new one takes its place. 18:49.390 --> 18:53.593 [SPEAKER_02]: Fresh savings, new surprises, and more reasons to check back week after week. 18:53.773 --> 19:01.816 [SPEAKER_02]: set a reminder than visit by theR.net or your nearest showroom on Thursdays to see what Bogo Bash deal is waiting for you by the yard. 19:01.876 --> 19:03.216 [SPEAKER_02]: Life is better outdoors. 19:03.636 --> 19:15.380 [SPEAKER_04]: Um, what about, um, when you, when you take a kid to, uh, a young adult, uh, adolescent, two counseling, um, what rights do we as parents have to know what's going on? 19:15.440 --> 19:18.982 [SPEAKER_04]: I think that's another thing that can get tricky like, well, I want to know what they're talking out or 19:23.667 --> 19:35.212 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so obligation to not talk to parents legally starts at 18, you know, when parents used to call and say, 19:36.413 --> 19:41.655 [SPEAKER_01]: I need to talk to Dr. Wolves about my 18-year-old son because I don't think therapy's work. 19:41.715 --> 19:47.658 [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember that our sector is used to answer and say, well, we can't even acknowledge that we know who you're talking about. 19:48.838 --> 19:52.660 [SPEAKER_01]: So if you want to leave us information about anyone that's fine, but we can't. 19:53.120 --> 19:55.561 [SPEAKER_01]: So it can be that strict after 18. 19:55.901 --> 19:58.822 [SPEAKER_01]: Before that, it's not really about legal. 19:58.902 --> 19:59.883 [SPEAKER_01]: It's about effective. 20:00.523 --> 20:10.813 [SPEAKER_01]: And so a parent that says, I want my kid to come see you, I want my kid to talk to you, but I'm going to need you to tell me pretty much everything that they're, that they tell you. 20:11.214 --> 20:15.178 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to say, well, then it's not going to be effective and I can't do that. 20:16.239 --> 20:21.324 [SPEAKER_01]: So what usually comes down to is, that's part of what I think is good therapy. 20:22.165 --> 20:23.766 [SPEAKER_01]: I never had a problem with 20:25.307 --> 20:35.850 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, maintaining trust that a teenager felt like they can tell me pretty much anything and I also would keep parents advised enough to generally know. 20:36.290 --> 20:45.653 [SPEAKER_01]: What's absolutely obligation is that you can be guaranteed, there will be no reasonable therapist hearing your kid talk about something harmful. 20:46.413 --> 20:53.139 [SPEAKER_01]: like excessive drug use, suicidal plans, they will absolutely tell you. 20:54.741 --> 21:05.331 [SPEAKER_01]: But the idea of, you know, I need to interview them first and I need to kind of step in every once in a while and just see what, what are you saying to my kid? 21:05.731 --> 21:10.135 [SPEAKER_01]: That isn't illegal, it's just incredibly ineffective. 21:10.478 --> 21:11.079 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, okay. 21:11.539 --> 21:15.282 [SPEAKER_04]: Should there be a time limit set like when you send your child to a counselor? 21:15.363 --> 21:20.207 [SPEAKER_04]: I've heard examples of people who my friends, Joke, you'll say, well man, my daughter, she's really enjoying it. 21:20.227 --> 21:23.190 [SPEAKER_04]: We've been there for eight months and she's like hanging out with her best friend. 21:23.210 --> 21:25.372 [SPEAKER_04]: She's like, I gotta go talk to so and so this week. 21:25.412 --> 21:32.298 [SPEAKER_04]: And so she can, I think there are some instances where it works and they're really comfortable and they, that's become their friend. 21:32.338 --> 21:34.460 [SPEAKER_04]: Like should there be time limits on how this works? 21:35.077 --> 21:35.577 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes. 21:35.777 --> 21:45.780 [SPEAKER_01]: They're absolutely like most therapists I do will talk about when will we terminate this therapy and under what circumstances in the first session. 21:46.541 --> 21:52.863 [SPEAKER_01]: This is not, you know, I have teenagers that would say, yeah, well, I'm going to tell Dr. Wilkes y'all are doing this. 21:53.203 --> 21:59.785 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, as if he's getting he's my buddy and I always instructed parents to tell them, well, Dr. Wilkes works for us. 22:00.145 --> 22:04.026 [SPEAKER_01]: So you might want to make sure that he agrees with you on that. 22:04.326 --> 22:11.251 [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, there's basically, I would hope that your teenager feel supported by her therapist. 22:11.812 --> 22:26.223 [SPEAKER_01]: On the other hand, there is such a thing as kind of a therapist that's sort of a good adult friend that kind of just is supportive, but we're really not, we long since lost track of what are we focused on improving here. 22:26.883 --> 22:28.244 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think that's therapy. 22:28.304 --> 22:30.646 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's just kind of like an ant or uncle. 22:31.287 --> 22:33.509 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think that she'd cost you a bunch of money. 22:34.369 --> 22:36.131 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not always useful. 22:36.771 --> 22:46.639 [SPEAKER_01]: I've definitely terminated therapy with many teenagers that would love to keep coming to talk to me every week and tell me how terrible their parents are and all this stuff. 22:47.140 --> 22:49.162 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's not helping anything. 22:49.182 --> 22:53.025 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I would be the one to say, yeah, this is not going anywhere. 22:53.668 --> 23:03.411 [SPEAKER_04]: So this may be an unfair question because it's kind of broad, but would you give a sliding scale like, you know, two sessions minimum and maximum six months or you're not able to say it that way because you don't. 23:03.652 --> 23:05.434 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it's really hard to say it that way. 23:06.214 --> 23:09.878 [SPEAKER_01]: You aim for, so it's more in kind of like how you approach things. 23:09.978 --> 23:18.085 [SPEAKER_01]: I would say that I try to approach things in short-term therapy, which is about eight to 10 sessions in a maximum kind of thing. 23:18.866 --> 23:22.409 [SPEAKER_01]: Realistically, what happens is that there are different cycles that you go through. 23:22.549 --> 23:28.375 [SPEAKER_01]: Then, you know, I've talked to a young man yesterday that I've seen since he was 23:29.505 --> 23:37.468 [SPEAKER_01]: I may have seen him for 10 years, but not continually at all, like I'd talked to him yesterday, I'd talked to him a year before that. 23:38.709 --> 23:52.074 [SPEAKER_01]: So you can use that therapeutic relationship to come back and in short order, kind of jump up to things that you can get good feedback because we did a lot of work before. 23:52.174 --> 23:53.275 [SPEAKER_01]: I can be the guy that goes 23:53.775 --> 23:56.496 [SPEAKER_01]: So I know you're doing fine with your job. 23:56.556 --> 23:58.956 [SPEAKER_01]: So what's happened with girls, that's what we're talking about, right? 23:58.976 --> 24:00.877 [SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, yeah, how'd you know? 24:00.937 --> 24:02.657 [SPEAKER_01]: I said dude, we've done this for a long time. 24:02.677 --> 24:07.319 [SPEAKER_01]: It's always something going on in your dating relationship that calls you to cause you to call me. 24:07.379 --> 24:17.762 [SPEAKER_01]: Those are things that, you know, it's beneficial having that relationship, but it certainly doesn't mean that you're going to go see that therapist weekly or every other week for years. 24:18.182 --> 24:19.302 [SPEAKER_01]: I just don't think that's helpful. 24:19.835 --> 24:20.095 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay. 24:20.356 --> 24:20.556 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay. 24:20.896 --> 24:21.898 [SPEAKER_04]: And then last question. 24:23.460 --> 24:29.227 [SPEAKER_04]: As if we're Christians listening to this and many of us are, how do you feel about 24:30.072 --> 24:32.794 [SPEAKER_04]: the need to have a Christian counselor for your child. 24:33.034 --> 24:37.077 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's changed over time, especially with hospital stuff. 24:37.097 --> 24:51.968 [SPEAKER_01]: When a teenager's suicidal or, you know, if they're needing psychotherapy for something severe, my answer used to be, look, there's no professional therapist that's not going to respect your kids. 24:52.837 --> 25:02.848 [SPEAKER_01]: religion like they may not support it or you know certainly I'm not going to tell you that yeah I think that's the Holy Spirit's work in your life, but they're not going to actively defy your religion. 25:02.888 --> 25:13.499 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, in the rise of especially the trans thing, it started some with with the the gay issue, but when it comes to sexuality and gender, 25:14.921 --> 25:22.052 [SPEAKER_01]: There's such a strong belief among many people out there that absolutely defies our religion. 25:22.252 --> 25:29.563 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think it is, I am more likely to suggest parents be careful. 25:30.444 --> 25:35.827 [SPEAKER_01]: that their therapist that's good is not anti some of the basic Christian beliefs. 25:37.348 --> 25:50.296 [SPEAKER_01]: But I also don't think it's like, well, he's a nice guy that talks to young people and he's a Christian, he has no training, but that'll be fine too, I wouldn't do that either. 25:50.716 --> 25:59.081 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think it is worth finding an experience therapist that is not anti-religion. 26:00.217 --> 26:10.279 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's not just Christian Orthodox Jewish parents, Orthodox Muslim parents, all have the same basic beliefs about God's view of sexuality and gender. 26:10.760 --> 26:21.602 [SPEAKER_01]: So it is worth testing the waters to make sure that this person is actually actively against some of the basic religious beliefs of the parents. 26:22.263 --> 26:23.204 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, helpful. 26:23.224 --> 26:23.804 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a prize. 26:23.824 --> 26:28.167 [SPEAKER_04]: You know, no, I'm not sure. 26:28.187 --> 26:29.068 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. 26:29.188 --> 26:36.814 [SPEAKER_04]: No, it doesn't surprise me, but I think I'm just thinking as a parent as a Christian, I would want my my youth to go to. 26:37.667 --> 26:49.759 [SPEAKER_04]: a Christian counselor, I think you're seconding that, but at the same time also, if it's crisis mode, I think you go to the best in the crisis mode it sounds like and so no no I think that's right. 26:50.039 --> 26:55.885 [SPEAKER_04]: Here's the last thing, and we talked about this on the first one and I don't remember what the question was, but I remember the answer was good. 26:56.405 --> 27:00.408 [SPEAKER_04]: And so I'm just going to lead you into that answer again because I want everyone to hear this. 27:00.668 --> 27:05.072 [SPEAKER_04]: But we talked a little bit about that fear of our kids harming themselves. 27:05.112 --> 27:07.473 [SPEAKER_04]: That's always this underlying thing when they're unhappy. 27:07.774 --> 27:11.576 [SPEAKER_04]: What if they do something and we have this like fear all the time of the show. 27:11.596 --> 27:12.517 [SPEAKER_04]: I assume to counseling right now. 27:12.917 --> 27:20.103 [SPEAKER_04]: And I think basically your response is you don't have to fear them harming themselves in less. 27:20.603 --> 27:23.884 [SPEAKER_04]: they actually, you are going to say it better than I am. 27:24.184 --> 27:37.750 [SPEAKER_04]: But speaking to that, like when should we have a fear enough of that that we are like you're going straight to counseling versus just this parent nervousness that we all experience at some point because they lost their best friend or they broke up with their boyfriend or whatever that they didn't get in the college. 27:38.408 --> 27:47.172 [SPEAKER_01]: The basic problem is that we have not been able to identify exactly what is the cause of suicide and how can you always know. 27:47.692 --> 27:48.792 [SPEAKER_01]: We really don't know. 27:48.812 --> 28:03.739 [SPEAKER_01]: Here's some things we do know that a teenager that commits suicide rarely does that with no previous talk of it warning of it out of the blue. 28:04.797 --> 28:24.220 [SPEAKER_01]: It just happened that had that happens, but almost never very small almost always there's a trail of Comments about my own death and my I might kill myself and so forth the problem though Is that that trail even of a teenager saying I'm thinking about suicide whatever 28:24.560 --> 28:27.441 [SPEAKER_01]: that trail often does not end in suicide. 28:27.581 --> 28:36.464 [SPEAKER_01]: It's often is a way of explaining how bad you feel in a way that's really over the top and not a good way to explain it. 28:36.524 --> 28:42.846 [SPEAKER_01]: So what parents need to be careful with is that if your teenager is saying, well, it doesn't matter. 28:42.926 --> 28:44.046 [SPEAKER_01]: It won't be here tomorrow. 28:45.002 --> 28:49.644 [SPEAKER_01]: You need to ask directly, are you telling me that you are at risk of harming yourself? 28:50.204 --> 28:53.465 [SPEAKER_01]: And if your teenager says, no, I'm not. 28:53.605 --> 28:54.085 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry. 28:54.125 --> 28:55.146 [SPEAKER_01]: I was just being dramatic. 28:55.466 --> 28:56.106 [SPEAKER_01]: You're good. 28:56.426 --> 28:58.427 [SPEAKER_01]: That you've done your due diligence. 28:59.717 --> 29:08.599 [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, but if your teenager says, I just don't know why I'm living and this, I don't know why I'm continuing, everything's just terrible. 29:08.999 --> 29:26.022 [SPEAKER_01]: That does not mean that they are going to kill themselves and you need to be careful that you don't accidentally signal and this happens more and more now, accidentally signal to a teenager that listen, if you're really upset and kind of melancholy, like I was all through seventh grade. 29:26.722 --> 29:29.143 [SPEAKER_01]: then you're probably at risk of killing yourself. 29:29.183 --> 29:34.866 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a really terrible message to be giving out to young people. 29:35.006 --> 29:38.348 [SPEAKER_01]: It's funny, that's one of the things that happened with the trans community. 29:38.708 --> 29:43.990 [SPEAKER_01]: There was such a common theme now of if you don't accept your trans kid, they're going to kill themselves. 29:44.331 --> 29:47.732 [SPEAKER_01]: That trans support groups started saying, hey, would you cut that out? 29:47.772 --> 29:55.236 [SPEAKER_01]: You're making it sound like any kid that is considering identifying trans is also weak and can't handle anything without committing suicide. 29:55.536 --> 29:58.618 [SPEAKER_01]: So that signal is something to be careful about. 29:59.119 --> 30:03.922 [SPEAKER_01]: If you really have reason to believe they're talking and acting suicidal, just ask them. 30:04.662 --> 30:07.644 [SPEAKER_01]: And if they say no, then accept that. 30:08.265 --> 30:11.187 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't run off to therapy every time they're upset. 30:11.967 --> 30:13.509 [SPEAKER_01]: or this happens a lot too. 30:13.830 --> 30:17.775 [SPEAKER_01]: We would ground her, but but she's had so she's so upset. 30:18.296 --> 30:19.738 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm worried about what would happen. 30:20.098 --> 30:27.167 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, that is almost teaching that, hey, x level of upset, you're at risk of harming yourself. 30:27.227 --> 30:29.991 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, that's not at all what we know to be true. 30:30.475 --> 30:30.735 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay. 30:31.556 --> 30:31.916 [SPEAKER_04]: All right. 30:32.156 --> 30:32.857 [SPEAKER_04]: That's a good word. 30:32.877 --> 30:34.498 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm therapy and a good word. 30:34.938 --> 30:36.300 [SPEAKER_04]: The second time on therapy. 30:36.360 --> 30:38.621 [SPEAKER_04]: I'll even better than the first word last time. 30:38.641 --> 30:39.602 [SPEAKER_01]: I'd rather than the first. 30:39.682 --> 30:40.943 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we may start doing that. 30:41.003 --> 30:45.667 [SPEAKER_04]: Just going back to old episodes and just really brushing up and retapy and see how much better we can be. 30:45.727 --> 30:47.088 [SPEAKER_04]: But thank you. 30:47.628 --> 30:49.129 [SPEAKER_04]: Very, very much for that. 30:49.169 --> 30:49.830 [SPEAKER_04]: We appreciate it. 31:05.130 --> 31:27.710 [SPEAKER_00]: Walk across America's highest suspension bridge, an exciting adventure awaits you about the Arkansas River on the famous Royal Gorge Bridge, and coming this spring, Royal Gorge is introducing Colorado's first clear floor gondola, experience a breathtaking new way to take in panoramic views of the scenic Royal Gorge through a clear glass floor, and it's included with park ignition at no extra costs. 31:27.850 --> 31:35.973 [SPEAKER_00]: We'll you dare to look down, visit RoyalGorgebridge.com to learn more and purchase tickets to come for the bridge, stay for the adventure. 31:36.314 --> 31:41.316 [SPEAKER_02]: Summer savings just got a whole lot more exciting at Bay of the Art, introducing the Bogobash. 31:41.576 --> 31:46.998 [SPEAKER_02]: Every Thursday, a brand new buy one get one 30% off offer on a featured furniture category. 31:47.098 --> 31:51.485 [SPEAKER_02]: The twist each deal is available for just five days before a new one takes its place. 31:51.626 --> 31:55.873 [SPEAKER_02]: Fresh savings, new surprises, and more reasons to check back week after week. 31:56.033 --> 32:03.085 [SPEAKER_02]: Set a reminder then visit by theR.net or your nearest showroom on Thursdays to see what Bogobash deal is waiting for you. 32:03.345 --> 32:05.448 [SPEAKER_02]: By the yard, life is better outdoors.