[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with Literary Agents, Carly Waters, and CC Lyra.
[SPEAKER_02]: Where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you'd ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug, and pull up a chair.
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome everyone to a very special episode of Shooting the Shit.
[SPEAKER_01]: We do have two agents on the show today, myself and someone else, but in a very special episode, we have a special guest star.
[SPEAKER_01]: Alia Hannah Habib is Vice President and Literary Agent at the Gurnert Company.
[SPEAKER_03]: Good job.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sorry.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's gonna be funny.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where she represents MacArthur Fellows, Pulitzer Prize, winning journalist's National Book Award finalists, and numerous New York Times bestselling authors.
[SPEAKER_01]: She lives in Brooklyn, New York.
[SPEAKER_01]: And for everyone wondering why a Liya said, Good job in the middle of my, of me reading her bio.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's because that was checking all the pronunciations with her before.
[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you.
[SPEAKER_03]: People often just pronounce Gernard.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I've, as it gets tarjade a lot.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I've been introduced on many a panel as working at the Gernet Company, which sounds incredibly chic and posh, but I do not work at the Gernet Company.
[SPEAKER_03]: I work at Gernet, and I, bravo, that was great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I will take the call of lament.
[SPEAKER_01]: I will take the win.
[SPEAKER_01]: Our listeners have for sure heard me but some names unintentionally, of course.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm really happy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to say it again though, because what if I get it wrong the second time?
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
[SPEAKER_03]: But it's welcome.
[SPEAKER_03]: Keep working.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for having me.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm delighted to be here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so for context you guys Carly's traveling and so she and I decided to aid to record an episode without each other because we had to was scheduling and then Carly did her amazing episode less week, which I'm sure you guys checked out and I was reading Alia's book because that's right Alia isn't just an agent.
[SPEAKER_01]: She is an author and I'm going to hold up the book for you guys to do it too.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's called to get from me an agents guide to building a nonfiction writing career from scratch.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I want to like share like why I was reading this book so I was reading this book because a good friend of mine who's an agent Amanda read it and loved it and I was like okay I'm going to check it out.
[SPEAKER_01]: I trust Amanda's taste and I was loving it too.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I deem to Leah about like how much I loved it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when I knew I was recording an episode a solo episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, not solo now.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like earlier will you come on and do it with me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we can talk publishing news, but also so I can ask her about her book.
[SPEAKER_01]: So in today's episode everyone,
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to obviously talk to Alia and ask her a little bit about her career in her book and then we're also going to cover a few stories in the news and some questions from our listeners.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know whether we'll have time to cover it all, but let's try.
[SPEAKER_01]: Alia, first thing I want to know because I'm so curious now.
[SPEAKER_01]: What made you want to write a book?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like as an agent, you know how hard it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: What made you want to do it?
[SPEAKER_03]: I am not eager to write another one.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I, I think it's probably hanging up my book writing hat because I, I mean, it always understood and respected how hard it is and then I, I actually wrote a book and I get it in my bones now.
[SPEAKER_03]: I would say that my path towards writing a book,
[SPEAKER_03]: is one that I think is actually a good way to think about whether or not you should write a book, which is I was, I often do public speaking and I like it and I like teaching classes and workshops.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've always enjoyed that part of the job and it's not all agents do and all agents have to do it.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I was teaching a little workshop.
[SPEAKER_03]: at Stanford for academics that were interested in writing crossover books, trade books, and I love doing it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was thinking, oh, it'll be so fun to do a semester long course.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I have this little practice of taking a little nap every afternoon and then I call it having my thoughts.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I wasn't having my thoughts and thinking, I'm having my thoughts, like my sitting there, it's kind of like meditating, kind of like not being.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, okay, if I were to teach a semester long class about nonfiction, what would it look like?
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was trying to put together a syllabus of what I would assign to read.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I kept pulling different ideas, but it all came from writing about publishing that was focused on fiction.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I thought it's really a shame that there's not a book that's about nonfiction.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then I thought, oh, I could write that book that needs to be a book.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think that process of thinking, oh, there needs to be a book about.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I am uniquely qualified to do so is actually a really good test if you're thinking about a nonfiction book.
[SPEAKER_03]: It wasn't like I was searching around for it, but yeah, it wasn't like, oh, I have to write a book.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was more like the idea came to me fairly fully formed and then I followed it and then.
[SPEAKER_03]: In my case, I'm very lucky because I know a lot of agents.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I texted my really good friend and colleague, Meredith, Rafael Simon off, who's an agent and said, Meredith, I have this idea.
[SPEAKER_03]: What do you think of this book, Idea?
[SPEAKER_03]: And she said, right, a couple of paragraphs, which is also really good advice if you have a book idea is to actually, instead of just thinking about it in the shower, write it down, write it, try to formalize the idea.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I did that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I sent it to her.
[SPEAKER_03]: Next thing I knew, we were just working on a book proposal.
[SPEAKER_03]: was rather long answer to your question.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I know why I loved it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I loved it because, I mean, first of all, I learned that you take these power naps, which I love now and it's a great thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I suffer from insomnia.
[SPEAKER_01]: So to me, the idea of being able to nap is a superpower.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like someone saying, I speak 15 languages.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's equivalent.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't nap.
[SPEAKER_01]: I cannot sleep at night, let alone during the day.
[SPEAKER_01]: But,
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that that was your journey.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that you you said that you wanted the book to exist and then you were like, oh, I can write it, but that also means that you can't say you'll never write another book because maybe someday you'll be like, could be like, yeah, that's the way I always think about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: If I wake up one day from a power now.
[SPEAKER_03]: For my thoughts and have an idea where I think, oh my god, I have to write this book.
[SPEAKER_03]: I probably do it again, but I wouldn't do it for less than that.
[SPEAKER_03]: That kind of inspiration and I think also knowing how hard it is to write a book.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not a hobby.
[SPEAKER_01]: not a hobby for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what was something that was surprising to you because I feel that as an agent, a lot of the things that would normally be surprising to a first-time author probably weren't, because you know so much, but then was anything surprising to you despite your experience?
[SPEAKER_03]: So what was great in which I think proved the theory of the book, which is the more you know about the process, the less stressful it would be.
[SPEAKER_03]: most things are the publication process.
[SPEAKER_03]: I did not find stressful or surprised at it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I felt very calm about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think I think that I underestimated how without a net you feel when you're writing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Our work as agent or work as publishing professionals is collaborative.
[SPEAKER_03]: We always talk about it as such.
[SPEAKER_03]: And there's always someone to bounce ideas off of.
[SPEAKER_03]: And in some of the frustration is that you can't do it on your own.
[SPEAKER_03]: You can't do the publicity and the marketing and the copy editing.
[SPEAKER_03]: But when you are writing, it's just on you.
[SPEAKER_03]: You are carrying the backpack up the mountain alone.
[SPEAKER_03]: The cavalry isn't coming.
[SPEAKER_03]: You have to put the words on the page.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that sense of
[SPEAKER_03]: total responsibility.
[SPEAKER_03]: Knowing how that feels, I hope made me more even more empathetic to my authors.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I would bounce ideas off of people, but it's not the same as getting your ass in a chair and having a right, you know, 10,000 words in a month.
[SPEAKER_03]: or whatever my own, you know, I had really clear.
[SPEAKER_03]: I also, I was very systematic about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I had very clear word count goals and a schedule and stuff and just like I have to do it.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's nobody's common to do this for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: How long did I take you to write it?
[SPEAKER_03]: To me, a little longer than I hoped.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because, hopefully this will make people feel sorry for me and by my book, I got it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I got divorced in the middle of, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I had to move.
[SPEAKER_03]: I lost my mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: You got divorced in the middle of writing your book.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I did, yeah, my marriage ended shortly after I got my book deal.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's, it's, I'm so great now, everything is so fine.
[SPEAKER_03]: But my life fell apart.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I love my life.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's like one of the hardest things the person could It was horrible while you're doing one of the most, like, it was hard challenging.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was horrible.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was horrible.
[SPEAKER_03]: Then I had a move.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I was living in this weird rental by myself that delayed it a little bit.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think all in all, it took about two years.
[SPEAKER_03]: But of course.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think that to get into kind of advice mode, it was horrible.
[SPEAKER_03]: the intense period where I was really writing the book.
[SPEAKER_03]: But it also sometimes you have to draw from negative emotions to get things done.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I did, I thought, I mean, I lost my home, I lost my marriage, my marriage fell apart before it happened.
[SPEAKER_03]: My dog died.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was kind of like the dog was the final straw.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I was in the past.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know, I know, I know my life is so much better.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now it's great.
[SPEAKER_03]: But to make happy endings have to happen.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I remember thinking, I can't
[SPEAKER_03]: lose another thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can't have another L on the scorecard.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's what got me up every day.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if that was it, then that was it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it was kind of like a revenge book.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, I'm going to write this fucking book.
[SPEAKER_03]: It becomes me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I said, I haven't had the revenge dress.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the revenge.
[SPEAKER_02]: She did.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, the famous revenge.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you know, and I think that's okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you have to write your book as a revenge book, if that's what gets it done, then that's what gets it done.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's your little black number.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's my little short every word.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that love this story.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: See, you're such a good storyteller.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because you just made me feel all the emotions and there was an.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, this is fascinating.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like totally reframing everything I read because here's the thing about your book as as a reader of your book I'm not attached this book in any way.
[SPEAKER_01]: I read it and then I reached out to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like, you know, we had spoken before We don't we don't we don't know each other.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, right.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I got into this like totally blind Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, do I think it's an agents guide to building a nonfiction career for writers?
[SPEAKER_01]: I do
[SPEAKER_01]: I also think it's an agent's guide to other agents.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I actually think that is an invaluable resource for agents and other publishing professionals or anyone who's curious about the publishing industry because you break it down from various angles, which is unsurprisingly since you wear many hacks, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you teach, you're an author, you're an agent and that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I love that you especially have the key takeaways at the end of each chapter, and that you encourage the reader to, hey, if you're particularly interested in chapter eight, you don't have to wait till chapter eight, reach chapter eight first, or whatever chapter first, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I really like that you often do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Clear templates and for any listener who's like I've always been curious know how an auction works or how an agent sends emails.
[SPEAKER_01]: Leah actually shares the wording behind so many of her tools as an agent.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if you're curious, I highly recommend it checking out, not just as a guide for nonfiction authors.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think so.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I definitely wrote the book with that secondary audience in mind, other agents, publishing professionals.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is that on your one of the working publishing?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, under the audiences.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's not specifically marketed if fiction writers, but I want it to be a book that anyone who wants the parts of it that you could skip around.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I also think I purposely, I think that one thing you can do in an on fiction book is without holding the readers hands too much, tell them how to read it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I do that in the direction exactly that where you say you don't have to read this in order.
[SPEAKER_03]: skip ahead.
[SPEAKER_03]: Don't worry about the stuff at the end of you're not there in your career.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I really, my, my, my style is a writer.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a lot like my style is a speaker.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm, I'm a pretty narrative writer, but it's a prescriptive book.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's why I wanted to have the take away.
[SPEAKER_03]: So something, if you read the book and you're like, should caught up in this,
[SPEAKER_03]: there's jokes, there's a song song joke in my book.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I wanted to be fun.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I also don't want you to them be like, oh, I read a fun chapter.
[SPEAKER_03]: What did I learn?
[SPEAKER_03]: I really wanted you to also know what you learned and that's what I did the takeaways at the end.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that way you could read it on a couple different levels.
[SPEAKER_03]: So a fair amount of thought but into the format.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that, that's super interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for sharing that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, okay, now we're gonna talk about today's news and also some questions from listeners.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: But before we go to that, Alia, is there a question about your book that I didn't ask you that you're like, oh, I wish someone asked me that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh gosh, um, putting you on the spot.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's your putting me on the spot.
[SPEAKER_03]: I like there's a question that I think will be helpful to writers, which is, what did you learn about the writing process while writing the book?
[SPEAKER_03]: Which is different than what was the prize do?
[SPEAKER_03]: So this is my, my writing advice, which I couldn't have known until I wrote my book.
[SPEAKER_03]: I had a really hard time writing the book so
[SPEAKER_03]: first chapter, which in my book is the first chapter I wrote for my sample from selling the book is on querying pitching articles and essays.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was easy to write.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know that really well.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was fun to write.
[SPEAKER_03]: Second chapter is about education.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's about MFA programs, journalism school, whether or not to to do graduate degree.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that was challenging because that was the only chapter that I don't have super direct experience with.
[SPEAKER_03]: I wasted six months of my life trying to write that chapter and it was
[SPEAKER_03]: And I honestly thought I can't finish this book, but I'm going to do it's going to be some embarrassing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Then one day I woke up and I thought, what if I were to write the easiest chapter next?
[SPEAKER_03]: So I actually wrote my book from easiest to hardest chapter.
[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't write in order.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I wrote from chapter that I thought would be most fun to write to chapter I thought would be least fun to write.
[SPEAKER_03]: And
[SPEAKER_03]: The reason that worked for me is it was my first book and I needed to learn how to write chapters and I knew I'd feel more confident the more word count I had under my feet, the kind of like running a marathon.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like you knew all of you get to mile 19, you're gonna make it to the end.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I was just stuck.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like it was like I'd given myself a hill decline really early by having the hard chapter come first and I was kind of thinking ahead of right in order.
[SPEAKER_03]: So once I wrote out of order, everything became so much easier.
[SPEAKER_03]: Then by the time I got to the hard chapter, the education chapter, I'd written all the other chapters,
[SPEAKER_03]: I just told so much easier and I had a rhythm and I had a better idea as about the structure.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that was my advice and I think it could work for fiction.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it could work for nonfiction, you know, you don't have to make my colleague Nicole calls it eating the frog for breakfast.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you know you have to eat a frog during the course of your workday, and I get this, I'm a good girl.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I'll get the eat the frog first.
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe you don't have to.
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe you can do the easier things first and work up to the hard thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's my writing advice.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to eat a frog.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I don't think anyone should ever have to eat a frog.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, shame.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're a frog.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're a frog.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to eat kale.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love kale.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
[SPEAKER_01]: Show my frog a piece.
[SPEAKER_01]: Chocolate chip cookies.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I love chocolate chip cookies too.
[SPEAKER_03]: My frog is too much.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think I should never be able.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: No human should eat that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Are you a cat?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Otherwise, you should be eating fish from a cat.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, agreed.
[SPEAKER_01]: Harder great.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a very picky eater.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ali, I love that extra question.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are now going to take a break for a message for our sponsors.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, everyone, welcome back.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are now going to talk about a few headlines.
[SPEAKER_01]: The first, this is good news for romance writers, where are our romance writers?
[SPEAKER_01]: Let us know in the comments if that's you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Atria, atria gallery group, technically, is relaunching pocket books in print.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I thought that was so cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we talked so much about like, in print's closing and people being laid off.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whenever we see a new imprint opening, I'm like, yay, let's celebrate that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Always good news.
[SPEAKER_01]: Always good news.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you bright romance, you should be happy, but also if you write romantic thrillers, dark romance horror, the news does say that the imprint expects to launch two to three titles per month starting in January, 2027.
[SPEAKER_01]: So exciting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exciting.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's really robust.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah,
[SPEAKER_01]: And I really hope I'm pronouncing her name, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Tomi Adayami is distancing herself from her children of blood and bone adaptation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I read a little article in the garden about it, but I also saw her post.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I have no idea what's going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I'm being totally honest, because I don't think for supposed to know, if you didn't go online and share intimate details, I don't want to forget that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I tried to understand it in order to discuss it with you and I couldn't.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you listen or are listening at this point, the new cycle is such that we don't, I don't think exactly what's happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think that's intentional on her part for matters of privacy or other reasons, such as confidentiality, and of course we totally respect that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I could interpret.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like that's a fair interpretation that she was hurt by something in that, and that breaks my heart, because we know how hard it is to break out as an author, especially a woman of color, and then to have your adaptation, and we can come along that so many people's dream, and then to have to distance yourself from it, because of whatever reasons are keeping you,
[SPEAKER_00]: My heart's breaking a little bit of food.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's not a great feeling.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then another thing that happened, we got this news today.
[SPEAKER_01]: Publishers lunch reported that second quarter deal making is mix mix.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're gonna break that up a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: A few highlights for you guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: Overall, we had a decline in second quarter deals.
[SPEAKER_01]: Modest to decline though.
[SPEAKER_01]: So 1.8%.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not horrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that's horrible?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's not growing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not growing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's not horrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't want people to feel too discouraged.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then, publishes lunch did analyze a little bit, like the data and some highlights for you guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: They looked at the big five publishers and everyone, PRH, Harper Collins, Simon and Schuster, everyone's essentially Anne McMillan, everyone closed fewer deals this year than they had last year, comparing the same quarter.
[SPEAKER_01]: But, her shirt was the only group where there was more delectivity.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that I thought that was interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's a pricing tale.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and I wouldn't, if you had given me, you know, a list of the big five and said, circle which one has closed more.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, here.
[SPEAKER_03]: I wouldn't have picked a shirt.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not sure why would I pick it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I wouldn't have been.
[SPEAKER_03]: I wouldn't have said a shirt.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I know who I would have picked, but I'm thinking about now, but it wouldn't have been her shirt.
[SPEAKER_01]: I agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's so interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: So interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So categories, because I know you guys are going to be interested in categories, among nonfiction categories, advice, relationship, self-help, business, finance, economics, these were the ones with the most
[SPEAKER_01]: drops that how one says it, you're probably not.
[SPEAKER_03]: These drops and that didn't surprise me and can I give you my theory?
[SPEAKER_01]: Please, we love theory.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is what I'm hearing and who knows.
[SPEAKER_03]: Again, we're just theorizing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: It is that these are the categories most impacted by AI because people are going to clot or whatever to answer questions.
[SPEAKER_03]: The previous is the
[SPEAKER_01]: Reno's if this is hot, but I know it's not great.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not great.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I don't think this is good nor do I think yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, I know going to It's just that I'm going to say let's not talk about AI and of course the reason is AI.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Keep going keep going.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you want to do any of my AI analogy that about talking about AI?
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to hear it all.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yes, they don't.
[SPEAKER_03]: So if AI like this is how I think about AI, it's like to bring it back to dogs.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like when a dog you're in a room in a dog farts.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're like, is this the fart welcome?
[SPEAKER_03]: No, but can you ignore it?
[SPEAKER_03]: You wish you could, but you can't.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, oh, the dog farted again.
[SPEAKER_03]: That is like what every publishing conversation is, not to be gross.
[SPEAKER_03]: A.I.
[SPEAKER_03]: is the dog fart of publishing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Interesting, interesting, interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, but you were saying that you think that the decline in these categories is because of that, that would make sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have heard from a few, actually, a few meaning like three to four editors
[SPEAKER_01]: imprints, who work at imprints that are focused on prescriptive fiction, that they're still going to do prescriptive fiction.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like they're not going to do it, but that the category is struggling a little bit.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I hadn't heard them make the AI connection so that is quite interesting.
[SPEAKER_03]: Just they give any insight into what they think is happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, across the board,
[SPEAKER_01]: Their theory is because there was a boom, not that long ago, the decline now is just a correction.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because that we just see that after boom, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: That happens in every category.
[SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, it's always a correction.
[SPEAKER_01]: exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: So then listeners, if you write nonfiction, but you write in the areas of religion, spirituality, history, food and beverage, and narrative nonfiction, then you can rejoice because these categories had gains.
[SPEAKER_01]: Be happy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope we're happy either way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, and then fiction.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's do fiction now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Fiction, there were actually gains, which was so great, and especially for debuts, sci-fi and fantasy,
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'm not surprised by that thought.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, right now a fiction is outselling nonfiction.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it doesn't surprise me that more publishers are acquiring fiction and that genre is selling particularly well.
[SPEAKER_03]: So none of this, nothing, nothing here has surprised me other than has shut the shut bump.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's so, it's so interesting how, I mean, I love that publishers lunch does this.
[SPEAKER_03]: Same, I love the data.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I will always welcome, we'll always welcome that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So now we're going to get to some questions from our listeners.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you in advance to everyone who sent questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was one question that I rewrote with the writer's permission, just because I hadn't understood it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I had to follow up and then eventually I was like, hey, if I phrase it like this, are you okay with it and they were?
[SPEAKER_01]: So we will start with that one actually.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so it's about co-authoring.
[SPEAKER_01]: So in other words, two authors writing one book.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's the question.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was approached by a colleague to co-author a nonfiction book on the subject we're both passionate and knowledgeable about.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've heard of books written by two authors, but to be honest, I've never mentally unpacked why anyone would choose the co-author route.
[SPEAKER_01]: Curious to hear your thoughts as agents on whether that usually means,
[SPEAKER_01]: having the work, meaning cutting the work in half, or doubling the headache.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, Alia, thoughts as an age of and an author.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think it means having the work.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do think it's challenging.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, I would approach this question with some things to think about before you agree to co-author.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've worked on a couple of co-authored books and some cases,
[SPEAKER_03]: a different agent represented another one of the writers in some cases I represented both writers.
[SPEAKER_03]: And in all cases, we ended up having a good book at the end.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I've seen it be challenging and I've seen it be challenging at other books represented by our agency.
[SPEAKER_03]: First of all, I think it's really important to before even before you approach agents say, to set out between you both with the relationship will be like, how the work will be split and how the money will be split.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes it's 50, 50, sometimes it's 60, 40.
[SPEAKER_03]: And sometimes it means 60, 40 can be a good thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because maybe you can't do as much work as the other person.
[SPEAKER_03]: Or you're going to do more work and you're going to feel better about it because you're getting paid more.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's also really good if you have distinct roles.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the reason to co-authors usually because someone is bringing a different type of expertise.
[SPEAKER_03]: So one of the books that I worked on, I'm trying to find it.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was,
[SPEAKER_03]: co-authored was this was years ago, it was this book called in a different key the story of autism, which was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it had two authors.
[SPEAKER_03]: And one of the reasons that there were two authors is one author, John Donbin, was a really good on the page writer.
[SPEAKER_03]: His co-author and they were both journalists.
[SPEAKER_03]: His co-author was his longtime producing partner.
[SPEAKER_03]: She was a really
[SPEAKER_03]: and she also a story of it's a history and narrative history of autism.
[SPEAKER_03]: She was a parent of a child with autism so she had really intimate knowledge of the subject that was different than John's.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they very clearly had roles that each would fill.
[SPEAKER_03]: And in this case too, they had different skill sets.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's a good reason to co-author.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is okay, one person is an amazing reporter and researcher.
[SPEAKER_03]: Another person is really great at the actual writing.
[SPEAKER_03]: which is a unique skill and it's going to come up in one of our other questions.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, otherwise I'd say, okay, well, why do I need to be there?
[SPEAKER_03]: Is it, it shouldn't be because like, we're going to do it more quickly or it's going to save time.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not.
[SPEAKER_01]: What are your things again?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I definitely agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: I agree with everything you said.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like it's not having the work.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no way.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think they're like downsides and upsides like everything in life, like some of the benefits have to do with something you mentioned when I was talking to you about your book, which is how isolating writing can be.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so having a partner to brainstorm, share the work, that can be good if you have similar working styles.
[SPEAKER_01]: The downside, I mean, they're quite a few, but
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like writing such a deeply personal task and having a vision for a book is so specific and personal that sharing that can be really stressful and especially for things like
[SPEAKER_01]: Like obviously, I feel like people who go into this together share a vision.
[SPEAKER_01]: But sometimes you don't know what you don't know until you start doing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're doing something solo, you can dial up and down how fast or how slow you go whenever you want.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you're sharing with someone, it's kind of unfair to the other person.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or it could be.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's kind of hard to like calibrate that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's really important to have a lot of trust.
[SPEAKER_01]: Have a common goal.
[SPEAKER_01]: compatible working styles and a great collaboration agreement I always say do not accept the oh if something happens we'll just figure it out I am allergic to people who say this I cannot stand the figure it out people would you do that for a business no you'd get a shareholder's agreement would you do that for a marriage no you'd get a pre-nup and if anyone's listening going yeah I do do that I don't think you should like talk about it definitely
[SPEAKER_01]: But yes, you know exactly exactly you you you're going to them together and you need to be like having tough conversations like Okay, what happens if X what happens if Y?
[SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, it can also be tricky for agents like for example.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know of a situation where
[SPEAKER_01]: the authors were represented by different agents at different agencies and there was a confusion about who would handle the sub rights.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that, I mean, I also know of many situations where it's totally fine because the agents communicated and people communicated and it was all fair.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you have to be able to have tough conversations.
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_03]: I couldn't agree with you more and what I was trying to say before you go the route of looking for, let's say, your co-writing and you're going to agents before you even do that.
[SPEAKER_03]: you should have a collaboration agreement with your co-oper, where you work it all out and have everything from your financial split to what if one of you decides to pull out of the project.
[SPEAKER_03]: Or, you know, these are the what the various, the what it is, the various contingencies.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think two of the things you can disagree about and I think it's just probably it's good to have a conversation early on about books you both like in terms of style and register, because you might have different ideas at the tone of the book and you won't know that until you start working on the page.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's why it's really important to figure those things out early.
[SPEAKER_01]: So true.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I also think people shouldn't assume higher earnings because that's not necessarily what happens.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll be just splitting the amount that you'd get anyway.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really important to also think about the non-compete clauses, option clauses for other works, like is it your,
[SPEAKER_01]: solo next to our court and the next to work by you like you have to think about all these things.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking of two examples.
[SPEAKER_01]: One in fiction of two authors who were very good friends, wrote a book together and then they had a big big falling out.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was heartbreaking to hear about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I only heard about it from one of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it was a very fair story, you know, this other person's terrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: The story was I messed up, she messed up, we both messed up.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the fact is they're no longer friends and that can hurt.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also know of an example in nonfiction where two authors wrote a book did not have a collaboration agreement and then after the book got a huge deal, like huge deal, one of them said I want more than 50%.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he was like, we never actually said it would be 50, 50 and he was like, yeah, it was assumed.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is what I say, don't assume.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, exactly what your collaboration agreement to talk about copyright, monetary splits.
[SPEAKER_01]: AI use, roles and responsibilities of each party, like everything, everything, I want you to listen.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you have absolutely have to do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, are you gonna open up an LLC?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what you're gonna do, but obviously think it out.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you can't, it's actually not dissimilar from deciding to get married.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you don't feel comfortable having that conversation with a potential co-author, then you probably shouldn't be partners on a creative and professional endeavor.
[SPEAKER_01]: Could not agree more, could not agree more, not the time to be avoided to people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, not the time to be avoided.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, second question.
[SPEAKER_01]: This one is on the topic of ghost writers and collaborators.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not unrelated.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, not unrelated.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, I'm an agent and writer who recently got to have calls with publishers, a whole interested in writing my book.
[SPEAKER_01]: Probably this person meant buying.
[SPEAKER_01]: To my shock, not one, but three publishers asked me if I planned on using a ghost writer.
[SPEAKER_01]: One in print said they had a strong preference for
[SPEAKER_01]: a ghost writer.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they shared what the important was, but asked us to redact it so obviously we're not going to share.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is this a common practice among wrong fiction writers?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it normal for publishers to say they strongly prefer to work with ghost writers?
[SPEAKER_01]: Does this mean my proposal was poorly written?
[SPEAKER_01]: I wrote it myself.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have no plans on using a ghost writer, but now I don't know if I'm making a big mistake.
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, we don't know, like, we do not know this person's work.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what we always say is we're very happy to share thoughts, but thoughts cannot be advised to use specifically, because that would be super irresponsible.
[SPEAKER_01]: We haven't read your proposal.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know what it's about.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, this is more about these conversations.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Elie, I do want to kick us off.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I, I addressed this in my book.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is one of the most delicate conversations.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's when an authorist told they should probably use a ghostwriter or co-author.
[SPEAKER_03]: It is not
[SPEAKER_03]: the default practice for nonfiction, but it's quite common if the person is coming to write nonfiction not because their primary job is author.
[SPEAKER_03]: So someone who's primary job as author is a journalist or someone who is a essayist or someone who is leading with off with writing.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that had a
[SPEAKER_03]: tend not to have a co-writer, but a lot of nonfiction is written by people who are experts in their field.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you are a well-known, you know, neuroscientist or dermatologist or you're giving business advice.
[SPEAKER_03]: Quite often those books are co-written or ghostwritten because of the thing you're an expert in.
[SPEAKER_03]: is not writing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, and writing is a skill.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a skill.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a profession.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's incredibly difficult.
[SPEAKER_03]: Just because you could write a great email or even give a great talk doesn't mean you could write a whole book.
[SPEAKER_03]: And when I was writing my own book, I'd come across as a couple times with writers who I'd maybe interested in writing, working with because they were experts but not writers.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I had to have the difficult conversation with them saying, I think you should
[SPEAKER_03]: And it was always pushback because people hear that they're bad writers.
[SPEAKER_03]: And what you're hearing actually is you're not a professional writer.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I interviewed an editor, I really respect an editor and publisher.
[SPEAKER_03]: I really respect to get her like straight talk on this.
[SPEAKER_03]: Karen Minaldi, I interviewed her in my book and she's a person.
[SPEAKER_03]: She does a lot of prescriptive books or how to books.
[SPEAKER_03]: Often co-written.
[SPEAKER_03]: Karen uses analogy where she said, I've worked on a lot of books on neuroscience.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know a lot about the brain.
[SPEAKER_03]: and to have me operate on their brain.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'd a brilliant analogy, yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So I would say to our friend here, if multiple publishing professionals, people who do this for a living are interested in your book, which is a huge bar.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, though.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Are there say you need a writer?
[SPEAKER_03]: People who do this for a living who charge writing for a living are saying you need a writer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: What are you doing lately?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I agree with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like...
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like because writing is something we many of us most of us have been doing in some form or another, since we were really in school, like you said, people writing mouse people might write even a sub-stack or something like that, like it does necessarily mean that you can sustain that for the long form of a book, a book, a really good book is something that requires both from the writing and the reading a lot of cognitive brain power.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yes, it is a very specialized skill.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I love the analogy you mentioned about brain surgery, like it is brilliant.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's also really important to remember that sometimes the publisher might also be coming from it from a perspective of even if you can write your super busy, like probably because it's nonfiction.
[SPEAKER_01]: you are in a situation where you might teach courses, might give talks, you might have this impressive body of work that you have that you have to attend to.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like writing a book requires a lot of time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not just talent, but time, time, and like free free space in your mind.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like it is very important.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that that's also part of it too, I would not be offended.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would be like, a thrill that you have all this interest and pain.
[SPEAKER_01]: You'll let your getting on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I would say too.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I hadn't thought of this until you said the thing about the time and the space.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you are an expert, again, and guessing by the types of publishers interested, you're an expert in a subject matter.
[SPEAKER_03]: sometimes an expert is not necessarily the best person to translate the expertise, but a professionalist writer.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're so close to a professionalized writer.
[SPEAKER_03]: Someone who, and their writers who do justice, that they're ghost writers, you know, who specialize in subjects like, I do self-help books, I do psychology, I do business, they'll know how to pull it out and structure it in a way that someone who's not an expert in what you are an expert in can really understand it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_03]: Have that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And congratulations.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's nurture congratulations.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's like super awesome that you have all this.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so now we're going to talk about our third listener question, which we're calling whisper networks in publishing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, I'm an established writer on my third agent.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to leave my current agent, but I'm worried that after three agents, any perspective agent will think I'm the problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: In the past, I've been the one to initiate termination, but it's always been amicable.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do agents ever turn down a client, only because they've been represented by more than one agent in the past.
[SPEAKER_01]: My sales are midlist, and I'm looking for someone who can really support me in my career,
[SPEAKER_01]: and help me break out.
[SPEAKER_01]: My current agent is not great at communication.
[SPEAKER_01]: Before we tackle this question, in addition to my usual caveat of, we do not know this person's specific experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to say a lot of, we have a lot of love and respect for writers on this show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you guys, you know this.
[SPEAKER_01]: We also have a love of respect for everyone who supports writers.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so please don't, please don't listen to this question and think, who's the villain here because that's not what the question is about.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want anyone listening in to be like, ooh, what's happening?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's seldom the situation, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's usually more like about fit.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, sorry, I needed to share the caveat.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love this question because it's one I'd like to reframe.
[SPEAKER_03]: Can I reframe the question?
[SPEAKER_03]: Do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Every frame to question.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, everyone, Ali is about to reframe the question.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so I think the writer might be coming at this question with the wrong questions in mind.
[SPEAKER_03]: Here's she or they are worried about how they'll be perceived and which is not something
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, always give the advice that you should, as any, in your career, worry about what you can control.
[SPEAKER_03]: What you can't, you do have a track record here.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the track record is that you've parted ways with three agents that I'm looking for a fourth.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do think it's worth asking yourself, well, what happened?
[SPEAKER_03]: And how do I have that not happened again?
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you've even, especially if you initiate it all those breakups.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that way, the next fit is one that lasts.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that it's really, again, it's not dissimilar.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think dating is such a great analogy for disturbingly so disturbingly.
[SPEAKER_03]: Always.
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, I am, I find myself getting remarried after getting divorced.
[SPEAKER_03]: And which, you don't have to do this.
[SPEAKER_03]: You don't have to get remarried after divorce.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I thought it was really important.
[SPEAKER_03]: If I'm going to do it again, make a big commitment to think about how I, what happened in my last marriage.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think I owe it to myself and to my partner.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is not because of why it is now.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is not to say it's the right as fault for these separations or the agents fault.
[SPEAKER_03]: My guess is there were things that didn't work, that's why you separate.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I would start from that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I would start from, okay, what happened here?
[SPEAKER_03]: And it seems like the framing of the question is, my agent didn't do enough for me.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think you should think about, well, what am I looking for in agent?
[SPEAKER_03]: How am I going to know if the agent is a right fit?
[SPEAKER_03]: What didn't happen in this other relationship?
[SPEAKER_03]: What was good about them that I might look for?
[SPEAKER_03]: What did I like about these other agents in the past that might be things all look for in a new agent?
[SPEAKER_03]: So that way it's not just worrying about a whisper network, which you can't control, you can't control.
[SPEAKER_03]: But you can control how you work with a future agent and what you can look for.
[SPEAKER_03]: Would it be a red flag?
[SPEAKER_03]: I would say that again, if I talked to someone and they had parted ways with three or four other agents, I would ask, what would run there to make sure that I was a good fit for them.
[SPEAKER_03]: and that we would be happy together and that I knew that I could give them what they wanted.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think it's really important to have an answer for those questions that can bring an agent in so you can have an honest conversation about what a good working relationship is.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I have more thoughts, but I'm going to.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, we think I came in a little hot there.
[SPEAKER_01]: I liked it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We like hot takes it over here.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I also think that here's the thing for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought what you said about this person wanting to control perception was brilliant.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: I diagnosed it the same way.
[SPEAKER_01]: I hadn't thought of it till you said it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like when you said it, you know when the truth feels familiar, even though you had a thought about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's that's the impact that your words had on me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, yeah, set it up with this person's doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And can I say something?
[SPEAKER_01]: I empathize because, you know, especially, like, for example, as a woman, like, and we're perceived and judged and, like, so I understand, I understand wanting to control perception.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's, you understand.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I empathize in its human.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, like, lots of empathy and, and also honest advice, which is, like, at least that you can't do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't control it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know you want to, but that's like me and I always say this one in kale to have the nutritional value Sorry, one in chocolate chip cookies to have the nutritional value of kale.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not going to happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: I definitely don't want the opposite unless you swap
[SPEAKER_01]: They'll be fine by me because I don't eat kale, so yeah, that's a great idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: Swap, like freaky Friday, but for kale and chocolate chip cookies.
[SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, I think that for me, okay, if this were me, because I have spoken with writers who have been represented in the past, I always ask why they left their agent.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am not asking to pry, I am asking to audit whether I would be a good fit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: I need them to be honest.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry if it's an invasive question, but it's just one of those things I got to know.
[SPEAKER_01]: What I'm most looking for to be very honest with you is how realistic are your expectations because I have spoken to I'm thinking of one person I spoke to a long time ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: She was referred to me by a client of mine and the person was honest and lovely and kind and so great and I know they're going to have a brilliant career ahead of them, but the expectations they laid out were in my view, not realistic.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in my opinion, not realistic of any agent, but maybe I'm all, maybe, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I can't speak to each other agents, but I think it's just important to be honest about what you can really have to expect.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's just the situation.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I agree.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that really asking yourself what to expect from any agent and being honest with them is to your benefit of both parties.
[SPEAKER_02]: 100%.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, now we are at time, so we have to wrap this up, but Alia, thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to hold off your great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So everyone could see, go ahead and check out, take it from me, an agents guide to building a nonfiction writing career from scratch.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is an excellent book, a great guide.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really loved it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for writing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for having me and thank you for your kind words.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really appreciate it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Take care, everyone, and see you next week.
[SPEAKER_00]: CC Lera is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission guidelines at www.wshermen.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: Carly Waters is a literary agent at PS Literary Agency, but a work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast,
[SPEAKER_00]: are solely that of her as a podcast co-host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS literary agency.