WEBVTT 00:09.167 --> 00:13.591 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for joining me for the Crypto Mavericks podcast, and we have a great guest here for today. 00:13.891 --> 00:24.960 [SPEAKER_00]: It's Mac Brennan, PDs, the founder of Project Zero, a defy native prime brokerage platform focused on unified margin, capital efficiency, and better portfolio management across defy. 00:25.401 --> 00:27.823 [SPEAKER_00]: Really excited to have Mac Brennan on how you doing today. 00:28.742 --> 00:29.162 [SPEAKER_00]: Good idea. 00:29.742 --> 00:30.402 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm doing. 00:30.422 --> 00:31.143 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm doing great. 00:31.163 --> 00:32.503 [SPEAKER_00]: I love doing podcasts. 00:32.563 --> 00:33.523 [SPEAKER_00]: Love to learn a little bit. 00:33.563 --> 00:39.565 [SPEAKER_00]: I know our audience is always in the learning and this is a perfect time to kind of chat what you've built. 00:39.705 --> 00:43.866 [SPEAKER_00]: But before we dive into Project Zero, I'd love to know a little bit about your background. 00:43.906 --> 00:47.306 [SPEAKER_00]: How did you get into the crazy world of crypto blockchain? 00:47.346 --> 00:47.867 [SPEAKER_00]: Define? 00:48.367 --> 00:48.567 [SPEAKER_01]: Yep. 00:50.570 --> 01:11.077 [SPEAKER_01]: I worked in traditional finance for a bit in, in like PE and some IB stuff and then I moved into tech, I started out health tech company, grew that and sold that, started to quantitative trading firms, grew those in DFI and sold those and then started P0. 01:12.217 --> 01:14.838 [SPEAKER_01]: Exited the two trading firms and then yeah, started started P0. 01:15.613 --> 01:16.494 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I love it. 01:16.514 --> 01:18.357 [SPEAKER_00]: We're going with P0 from now on. 01:19.198 --> 01:21.541 [SPEAKER_00]: What a slick, slick name. 01:21.922 --> 01:29.593 [SPEAKER_00]: So for someone hearing about, so for someone hearing about P0 project zero for the first time, we'd love for you to just give the audience a breakdown. 01:30.670 --> 01:31.331 [SPEAKER_01]: Yep. 01:31.431 --> 01:38.398 [SPEAKER_01]: So if you're a defy user, you probably use more than one venue because different venues do different things. 01:39.299 --> 01:44.845 [SPEAKER_01]: You can lend, you can trade purps, you can swap, etc. 01:46.286 --> 01:50.951 [SPEAKER_01]: The problem is, is the minute you have capital on two or more of these venues. 01:51.732 --> 01:58.016 [SPEAKER_01]: your capital's fragmented and if you want to borrow against your capital, you start to run in the issues. 01:58.116 --> 02:04.660 [SPEAKER_01]: You have to go venue by venue borrowing and or some venues don't even have the ability to borrow against your oldings. 02:06.541 --> 02:15.707 [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to go a step farther, maybe you're long on venue A and short on venue B and you're actually delta neutral but venue A doesn't know that neither does venue B. 02:16.347 --> 02:25.411 [SPEAKER_01]: So all these problems, some meaning, like if the market went up, you'd be liquidated on Ben you'd be even though your margin is healthy in your account. 02:26.252 --> 02:28.893 [SPEAKER_01]: So all these problems are solved by a prime broker. 02:28.933 --> 02:36.576 [SPEAKER_01]: So P0 is essentially your like singular interface to connect to all the D5 venues you love on Solana. 02:37.997 --> 02:40.018 [SPEAKER_01]: We started with lending, so if you're lending across 02:41.618 --> 02:48.684 [SPEAKER_01]: Jupyter, Camino, P0 has its own native markets with like up to $100 million in them currently. 02:50.185 --> 03:02.794 [SPEAKER_01]: You can access it all through P0, and then if you have $100 in Camino, $100 in Jupyter, and $100 in P0, you can borrow against a $300 portfolio with unified risk credit margin 03:06.233 --> 03:13.415 [SPEAKER_00]: So, is the problem that every protocol has basically built its own separate financial system even though they're on the same blockchain? 03:14.716 --> 03:21.078 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, each protocol does its own thing, and that's great, and it's as its own like risk environment, and etc. 03:22.378 --> 03:27.140 [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, most users I know use more than one venue concurrently. 03:27.240 --> 03:29.340 [SPEAKER_01]: So, this actually solves that problem. 03:29.380 --> 03:34.542 [SPEAKER_01]: This gives you unified borrowing and also just like an easier lending experience across them. 03:36.001 --> 03:37.122 [SPEAKER_00]: I guess I have a question for you. 03:37.142 --> 03:41.445 [SPEAKER_00]: It felt like it's a triad-fi solved a lot of these problems through prone brokerage. 03:41.485 --> 03:46.389 [SPEAKER_00]: Like you said, why is it taking D-fi so long to adopt this or build this? 03:47.510 --> 03:49.331 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because it's really hard. 03:51.072 --> 03:52.293 [SPEAKER_01]: It's very difficult to build this. 03:53.394 --> 03:55.256 [SPEAKER_01]: You need a really sophisticated risk engine. 03:55.756 --> 04:01.680 [SPEAKER_01]: Also in the past, smart contract security wasn't at the spot where it is now. 04:01.920 --> 04:03.462 [SPEAKER_01]: So you could integrate a venue. 04:04.142 --> 04:14.207 [SPEAKER_01]: And if the venue goes and solve, and A, that's a lot of wasted work, and then B, if you're extending credit against that venue, you could be put on the line as well. 04:15.147 --> 04:21.710 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's all changed now, especially with like, you were like frontier AI models coming out. 04:22.330 --> 04:22.551 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, 04:23.851 --> 04:35.678 [SPEAKER_01]: smart contract security is just becoming more and more bulletproof and teams that are, you know, writing this code or auditing these these models have access to like better and better tooling. 04:36.338 --> 04:47.805 [SPEAKER_01]: And so like across across trusted venues which we only integrate, you know, venues that have passed our risk assessment across like smart contract and market risk, gas at risk, 04:55.179 --> 04:56.660 [SPEAKER_01]: You get a great time indeed by now. 04:56.821 --> 05:07.409 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, you get great risk adjusted yields and you have essentially a full team of auditors and also AI models like continuously evaluating code surface area. 05:07.429 --> 05:09.871 [SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of the program code doesn't change very often. 05:09.931 --> 05:13.474 [SPEAKER_01]: So now's a good time to build this product. 05:14.475 --> 05:19.899 [SPEAKER_00]: So is this fragmented collateral almost like a hidden tax on DFI users? 05:21.745 --> 05:24.746 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, I think that's a, that's a good way to put it. 05:24.806 --> 05:39.090 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's just like if you're if you're a user, you you probably use, yeah, you probably use two or more venues and if you want a bar like, you know, you could have You could have the holding Bitcoin, you could be holding solely could be holding some stable coins, you could be earnings and the old on it. 05:40.050 --> 05:48.353 [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe a trade opportunity comes up and now like all of this sudden the status quo has been you have to like decide where you want to borrow from if you don't want to look at your position. 05:49.173 --> 05:50.053 [SPEAKER_01]: kind of manage whole thing. 05:50.634 --> 06:02.697 [SPEAKER_01]: And even at that simple level, like we fix that, you know, maybe Jupiter's running specific incentives on a specific asset you like in P0 is running specific incentives on another specific asset you like. 06:02.737 --> 06:03.937 [SPEAKER_01]: And so you want to use both. 06:04.117 --> 06:05.918 [SPEAKER_01]: And you can do that now. 06:06.018 --> 06:10.579 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you have money in both, you can even borrow against whole thing as well. 06:11.326 --> 06:20.438 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's, I guess, the clarify for the audience, that's the big difference between what project zero is different than what an aggregator or a dashboard would be correct. 06:20.538 --> 06:22.401 [SPEAKER_00]: That's, that's the major key indicator. 06:23.474 --> 06:26.295 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we have a whole risk and credit engine as well. 06:26.315 --> 06:31.497 [SPEAKER_01]: We don't just like, yes, you can see a bunch of different markets through our UI, and that's great. 06:32.197 --> 06:37.058 [SPEAKER_01]: But underneath, we extend credit against your positions on third party venues. 06:37.778 --> 06:42.220 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's a whole program in and up itself. 06:42.280 --> 06:44.401 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a lot of contract work. 06:45.321 --> 06:51.423 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, yeah, it's much more than just a pretty web interface, 06:53.073 --> 06:53.594 [SPEAKER_00]: amazing. 06:53.755 --> 07:00.510 [SPEAKER_00]: And I saw this, but PZR says it now covers 98% of soana lending TVL. 07:00.550 --> 07:03.737 [SPEAKER_00]: How important that kind of scale to make this unified margin work? 07:05.338 --> 07:05.718 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 07:06.159 --> 07:10.423 [SPEAKER_01]: So we don't want to force users into tradeoffs when they use PZR. 07:10.643 --> 07:17.891 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, we, for example, we integrate, I think, like six markets plus across Camino, we integrate all of the two-veders earn markets. 07:19.272 --> 07:27.420 [SPEAKER_01]: We did integrate all trips to main market, pre, drift exploit, and we will reintegrate, drift, post-exploit. 07:28.321 --> 07:33.825 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's where actually the bulk of Solana TVL is like in addition to P0, P0 has its own liquidity. 07:33.965 --> 07:37.848 [SPEAKER_01]: So like across those four, there's a lot of liquidity there. 07:38.408 --> 07:43.992 [SPEAKER_01]: At that point at this point we're kind of looking at users and and 07:45.093 --> 07:50.438 [SPEAKER_01]: kind of going where the next big opportunity is, which I think is likely perps so we could integrate like perps venues. 07:51.358 --> 08:05.570 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you're like long on a perp venue, if you're running like a basis trade between like Camino and Phoenix perps, for example, you'd be able to have your spot positioning Camino and earn the yield and you'd be long on Camino. 08:05.850 --> 08:07.011 [SPEAKER_01]: And then you could short the same 08:09.708 --> 08:19.972 [SPEAKER_01]: Phoenix, for example, with a perp in or like funding and not markets, and then you're in a delta neutral position across two venues, and we could extend you credit against the combined position. 08:21.073 --> 08:23.714 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's kind of like what we're looking at tackling next. 08:24.674 --> 08:28.736 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, certainly seems like perps have been the buzzword of this past year. 08:29.456 --> 08:32.637 [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously with the all the platforms have been exploding out there. 08:33.538 --> 08:35.078 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to talk a little bit about P0 projects, 08:40.496 --> 08:43.696 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so a lot of these these. 08:46.763 --> 09:10.717 [SPEAKER_01]: And for many, you know, getting into this base, they are, you know, like some people don't understand that you can, you know, deposit an LST borrow soul against it if soul borrow rates under the LST staking rate and then re and then swap for LST re deposit LST and borrow soul and kind of like earn this excess yield without liquidation risk on like pricing wicks through PZR, but you can. 09:11.978 --> 09:13.840 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's one of many strategies that you can do. 09:14.500 --> 09:24.529 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, instead of this know-how, just being kind of held by a small group of people who definitely do this, we kind of opened it up a bit. 09:24.669 --> 09:26.531 [SPEAKER_01]: And we made it one click. 09:26.571 --> 09:37.180 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a bunch of strategies right now where you can essentially use P0's borrowing ability to your advantage with a lot of pricing protection, built in and risk protection, built in. 09:37.820 --> 09:53.475 [SPEAKER_01]: So that if you're lending soul, lending Bitcoin, lending e-thlending stablecoins, and maybe you're earning like 7% on that Lent token, you can use strategies and in one click you can change that 7% to like 20% on by simply 09:59.421 --> 10:13.793 [SPEAKER_01]: borrowing a asset, usually a similar like market beta against the asset that you're depositing, swapping and redepositing the asset you're depositing and essentially doing that on the lever, it's used specified on strategies. 10:14.374 --> 10:22.121 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's essentially, it's just a very straightforward way to multiply yields and there's a lot of like, again, there's a lot of pricing protections built around this, 10:26.146 --> 10:28.527 [SPEAKER_01]: looping sole against LSTs. 10:29.908 --> 10:36.692 [SPEAKER_01]: We have E-Mode tier around this, which gives you better leverage parameters that you can take advantage of as strategies. 10:37.052 --> 10:50.820 [SPEAKER_01]: And we have price and protection where if the E-Mode suddenly wicks up or wicks down in price where it doesn't match the intrinsic value, we don't let liquidators look at you. 10:51.581 --> 10:53.982 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a really safe form of 10:56.245 --> 11:17.703 [SPEAKER_01]: that position would unwind, for example, if you decided to loop sole against LSDs on P0, is if over time your borrow interest exceeded your staking interest, which for many users hasn't, you know, like the staking interest tends to stay above borrow interest, or for us there's like a market inefficiency. 11:18.938 --> 11:23.300 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's tools like Part X zero or P zero and you get the P zero down because I like that. 11:23.340 --> 11:26.862 [SPEAKER_00]: It's so clean, make capital more efficient. 11:27.482 --> 11:32.024 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think some of these huge yield differences between protocols or guys start to disappear? 11:33.845 --> 11:35.306 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, that is one. 11:38.862 --> 11:54.025 [SPEAKER_01]: a second order effect of P0 where because it's a great effect essentially to all the venues we integrate where if, for example, like we're integrated with Camino and Jupiter right now. 11:54.085 --> 12:02.446 [SPEAKER_01]: So like let's say USDC borrow rates and lend rates because it's on a utilization curve spike on Jupiter. 12:02.826 --> 12:06.287 [SPEAKER_01]: So all of the sudden borrowers on Jupiter are paying a lot more. 12:06.967 --> 12:13.831 [SPEAKER_01]: through P0, people would be able to arbitrage the lend rate to P0's bar rate. 12:14.011 --> 12:23.796 [SPEAKER_01]: So they would be able to lend into Jupiter through P0 and borrow against that position on P0, not on Jupiter on P0 with P0's bar rate. 12:23.896 --> 12:32.200 [SPEAKER_01]: So like let's say, Jupiter just spiked up, it's paying 20% yield to Lendus stablecoin and 23% cost to borrow a stablecoin. 12:35.702 --> 12:40.844 [SPEAKER_01]: and on p0, it's paying you, let's say 9% to lend us stablecoin and 10% to borrow a stablecoin. 12:40.864 --> 12:45.186 [SPEAKER_01]: So now you can deposit into Jupiter or 20% and borrow at a 10% rate against that. 12:53.370 --> 13:02.375 [SPEAKER_01]: read a positive in a Jupyter and look that up and so that then like brings inflows into Jupiter and actually drives down utilization and keeps borrowers in Jupyter at a lower rate. 13:03.656 --> 13:09.780 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is something magic that never was possible before that does happen now. 13:10.800 --> 13:15.343 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's a really cool economic flywheel to venues we integrate. 13:16.203 --> 13:24.328 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so could P0 actually make defi markets more efficient overall even for people who have never even directly used the platform, right? 13:25.748 --> 13:46.040 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, there's there's definitely people that don't understand how to do this and are doing this through P0 so it already is like any anybody went to grade if there's a rates bike like there's been recently there's been some rates bikes in markets that like Camino is winding down on specific assets for borrowers. 13:46.740 --> 13:58.987 [SPEAKER_01]: and people have arped the Camino land rate to the PZR bar rate and doing so, driven down Camino rates and made them more efficient. 13:59.007 --> 13:59.988 [SPEAKER_01]: This is already happening. 14:00.288 --> 14:00.468 [SPEAKER_01]: Yep. 14:01.188 --> 14:01.649 [SPEAKER_00]: Amazing. 14:02.049 --> 14:09.493 [SPEAKER_00]: So how do you think about positions that look correlated or heads during normal markets, but then they suddenly move very different during a crash? 14:12.214 --> 14:20.020 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, that's a, that's a great question that that, like essentially involves a lot of like tail risk. 14:20.941 --> 14:25.124 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's pointed more towards like a risk engine. 14:25.184 --> 14:30.028 [SPEAKER_01]: So we have this first skin gene at PZL at PZL is called Brutus. 14:30.048 --> 14:33.230 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a like dynamic adaptive risk engine, which kind of 14:34.651 --> 14:49.425 [SPEAKER_01]: We're using to set a lot of production risk parameters and within the workings of produce, we have a bunch of tail risk analysis, which kind of evaluates that specific point. 14:49.665 --> 14:52.468 [SPEAKER_01]: So, through multiple vectors like. 14:53.648 --> 15:07.836 [SPEAKER_01]: One is essentially like different market regimes so, you know, markets can get, you know, a market where prices are kind of stable as much different than a market where prices are very volatile. 15:19.008 --> 15:33.597 [SPEAKER_01]: Like for example, some new stable coins could depegue with different backings if they were exploited in any way, so that there's this is like an extremely like multifaceted engine. 15:33.737 --> 15:34.258 [SPEAKER_01]: So like. 15:34.938 --> 15:42.528 [SPEAKER_01]: That's two examples of things that we consider for that particular point. 15:42.969 --> 15:44.971 [SPEAKER_01]: It goes pretty deep. 15:45.312 --> 15:51.640 [SPEAKER_01]: So we kind of rely on and are continuously building out like this internal 15:53.122 --> 15:59.504 [SPEAKER_01]: Model these situations and then set parameters that protect solvency, because we operate out of a single pool. 16:00.364 --> 16:03.966 [SPEAKER_01]: So, objective number one, and that single pool is to protect solvency. 16:04.046 --> 16:09.507 [SPEAKER_01]: So, even if markets are calm and we think we could extend more leverage, 16:11.861 --> 16:15.463 [SPEAKER_01]: We still have models running on like what if markets change right now. 16:15.543 --> 16:24.227 [SPEAKER_01]: And we have production risk parameters set in accordance to like that that more conservative that more more conservative baseline. 16:25.508 --> 16:32.512 [SPEAKER_00]: So do you have an extremely impressive background like you said the beginning and we hear a lot about traditional finance adopting defy. 16:33.212 --> 16:36.394 [SPEAKER_00]: What do you think defy actually needs to learn from traditional finance? 16:39.851 --> 16:40.637 [SPEAKER_00]: or nothing at all. 16:40.839 --> 16:41.646 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe we're just there. 16:42.750 --> 17:11.717 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think the point of defy is I think defy is learning probably too much from traditional finance right now like the the point of defy is to it's a crazy it's crazy it's to like reinvent the financial system and get these people to understand that like block trends are more efficient ledgers for finance in multiple in from multiple angles. 17:14.758 --> 17:23.543 [SPEAKER_01]: and like serve normal people every day people with D5 and then make it so compelling that the institution's come. 17:25.357 --> 17:34.863 [SPEAKER_01]: And actually, I recently, I think like D5, some seconds of D5 have just kind of like flipped, where they've just decided to serve institutions. 17:35.303 --> 17:40.246 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like becoming less accessible to normal users. 17:40.987 --> 17:52.974 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're kind of losing the leverage of D5 in that instance, because like an institution comes in has all the liquidity, has all the, you know, has like in a black box of risk. 17:54.570 --> 18:01.235 [SPEAKER_01]: They can, they can put under, they can insert whatever ledger they want, they don't need to use your blockchain for that. 18:01.935 --> 18:16.846 [SPEAKER_01]: So, I would like defy to actually kind of like stick more to it's core ethos of like this outsource auditable system that is accessible to that the average show. 18:18.527 --> 18:43.908 [SPEAKER_00]: And service that market really well because of its services that market really well everything else falls into place Yeah, that's my that's my like more hot take I guess I'm not no I like that that's a great hot take and you you pretty much alluded to this answer But I want to ask you the question do you think institutions and retail users Eventually use defy rails or do you think there's maybe this whole separate institutional side of the market? 18:45.144 --> 18:54.040 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, institutions are using DFI, but in like very particular ways right now, you know, through special purpose vehicles and fun structures. 18:56.923 --> 19:06.826 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just because, like, from a legal perspective, it's not, it's not super figured out and there is like an institutional push to start to use more. 19:09.287 --> 19:19.951 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, DTI systems where they insert their own like proprietary blockchain, which which kind of like defeats the purpose and this is this is kind of like the backwards way of thinking that. 19:21.652 --> 19:29.977 [SPEAKER_01]: is essentially a risk for the industry that I'm just lots excited about to be honest. 19:30.858 --> 19:31.858 [SPEAKER_01]: So I mean, they're here now. 19:31.958 --> 19:35.881 [SPEAKER_01]: They're using, they're trading these products now. 19:36.141 --> 19:40.524 [SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of price discovery that's happening over the weekend is informing their decisions now. 19:41.304 --> 19:47.228 [SPEAKER_01]: The traders are looking on Wall Street at Hyper Liquid over the weekend on Saturday and Sunday to see. 19:48.449 --> 20:06.970 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, what's happening in the markets and like this is happening out like people are coming if they want to buy Solana and they're doing it directly on Solana because they actually get better prices than they'd get on any centralized exchange like these two things on its face are phenomenal and like market market changing and 20:07.550 --> 20:08.371 [SPEAKER_01]: in and of themselves. 20:08.831 --> 20:17.739 [SPEAKER_01]: But both of those two things that I mentioned, service retail, service like the average day, Joe, you know, like I can go get that price on Solana right now if I want. 20:18.079 --> 20:22.663 [SPEAKER_01]: And I can go check Hype bill liquid on the weekend as well on trade if I want. 20:23.343 --> 20:27.587 [SPEAKER_01]: None of those are like, you know, purpose built for institutions. 20:27.667 --> 20:30.189 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think I just want to see more of that. 20:30.529 --> 20:30.810 [SPEAKER_01]: I really 20:31.797 --> 20:48.327 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I do as well, and you know, if you've been in a space and a defy as long as you have as long as I have, we know that's been going on by thinking it was really highlighted, at least, at least with my circles of people that maybe don't like live and breathe everything, crypto and blockchain and defy with the SpaceX. 20:49.227 --> 20:50.008 [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, I'm here. 20:50.108 --> 20:56.151 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I mean, that was you were just seeing it like announced like on a Saturday bloom birch talking about it. 20:56.171 --> 20:57.852 [SPEAKER_00]: They're all talking about hyper liquid. 20:57.932 --> 21:01.174 [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, yeah, wait, we've been doing this forever. 21:01.234 --> 21:03.695 [SPEAKER_00]: You guys are just getting on now. 21:03.735 --> 21:04.456 [SPEAKER_01]: How cool is that? 21:04.596 --> 21:12.060 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, on a Saturday, someone in Nigeria can buy SpaceX collateralize it and borrow, you know, Bitcoin against it. 21:12.660 --> 21:18.584 [SPEAKER_01]: So without asking anyone for permission, which is an internet connection, you know, that's never been possible before. 21:18.624 --> 21:34.294 [SPEAKER_01]: And then then, and they're not just buying like some tokenized receipt of space X, they're buying the actual rights to space X, you know, like you're using, like backpacks set up, for example, which I'm like a small angel and asterine. 21:34.955 --> 21:39.218 [SPEAKER_01]: But like I think it's like phenomenal, like what's going on there, where 21:40.238 --> 21:45.783 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, getting access to the American financial system for non-Americans has been very difficult. 21:47.444 --> 21:51.788 [SPEAKER_01]: And now you can just do it without an internet connection like that. 21:51.828 --> 21:52.548 [SPEAKER_01]: We should lean more. 21:52.648 --> 21:56.691 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, that example that you gave as well services retail. 21:56.792 --> 22:00.915 [SPEAKER_01]: More of this is what, like this is where the innovation is. 22:02.433 --> 22:27.203 [SPEAKER_00]: not popping your end to investor bags and not finding into advice but big bp guy right here I like back I think it's I think it's it's a slick product So p so I saw p zero pay let's use this borrow against and talk about this the d five portfolio for real world expenses How big's that m opportunity they turn the on-chain portfolio into something that feels like a real financial account 22:28.363 --> 22:49.560 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so we piloted this in America and we actually wanted this product to service, potentially, a lot of like B2B people as well, a lot of like businesses, like the crypto cars have kind of like taken off where like you can use your crypto to buy everyday coffee. 22:50.140 --> 22:51.061 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's great. 22:52.423 --> 23:00.691 [SPEAKER_01]: We kind of produce an end to end more efficient system around that where you can now earn yield on your decline, stable coins, soil, etc. 23:01.332 --> 23:05.917 [SPEAKER_01]: You can borrow a stable coin against their stable coins against it at the end of the month. 23:06.917 --> 23:35.705 [SPEAKER_01]: Off ramp it to account that pace or credit card bill or your bills or whatever and never actually like lose the exposure that you want never lose the venue selection that you want never use the lose the yield that you want because a lot of these things you had to do with crypto cards you had to stop using the venue you had to deposit in give up your yield and also potentially a whole like a specific maybe just a stable coin or like a specific token. 23:36.285 --> 23:58.293 [SPEAKER_01]: So he fixed all that, and we kind of just productized this product and piloted it in the American market, and we've been talking with like a many cryptocurrency companies about this, and there's there's been two recently that have already picked it up and started integrating it into their backend, which is which is beautiful. 23:58.353 --> 23:58.493 [SPEAKER_01]: So 23:59.293 --> 24:13.743 [SPEAKER_01]: like there's there's two companies right now that have different brands in us that you know aren't P0 that have their own users that are plugging into this together users a better experience essentially to get let their users keep their yield keep their venue selection 24:14.824 --> 24:24.189 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, uh, keep their exposure, uh, and, uh, and be able to pay at the end of the month, um, with just on, on credit. 24:24.209 --> 24:29.072 [SPEAKER_01]: And then also the beauty of this, you can pay back that borrow whenever you want. 24:29.372 --> 24:31.133 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's no like set terms this. 24:31.193 --> 24:31.553 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a, uh, 24:32.173 --> 24:33.855 [SPEAKER_01]: on chain over collateralized borrowers. 24:33.895 --> 24:37.418 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's up to you on Monday, pay that back. 24:37.478 --> 24:40.160 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's the approach we took with that. 24:40.220 --> 24:46.005 [SPEAKER_01]: It's essentially an experiment that turned into a B2B surface product. 24:46.245 --> 24:46.425 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 24:47.426 --> 24:48.227 [SPEAKER_00]: Awesome. 24:48.347 --> 24:55.933 [SPEAKER_00]: And I have to talk about AI agents because AI agents are starting to manage portfolios, they're moving capital across different platforms. 24:56.433 --> 24:59.696 [SPEAKER_00]: This unified margin become honestly even more important 25:01.615 --> 25:06.246 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, um, yes, uh, I, so. 25:07.636 --> 25:31.466 [SPEAKER_01]: If you ask your AI agent right now to like buy the next stop that's going to 10x, it would do a terrible job of that, but if you ask your AI agent to find you really good yields on a specific venue, it would do a really good job of that actually, if you're like, hey, I have stable conscious finding the best risk adjusted yield, it could do that very, very well. 25:32.927 --> 25:46.213 [SPEAKER_01]: And now the problem exists that a lot of these fields end up on scattered across different venues and also just from a perspective, you know, many, many users just don't want to put all their eggs in a single venue, right? 25:46.273 --> 25:55.117 [SPEAKER_01]: They want to similar them up across a couple venues and as as as to agents and so this gives humans and agents that that ability. 25:57.658 --> 26:01.780 [SPEAKER_01]: This is, this is already been, this is happening right now. 26:01.940 --> 26:12.846 [SPEAKER_01]: Like people are using agents to kind of scale, scan yield on P0, keep their stable points for example in the high-sielding market, and then also have borrowing ability. 26:12.866 --> 26:16.809 [SPEAKER_01]: And they can plug into pay actually the product you just mentioned with their agents. 26:17.289 --> 26:20.791 [SPEAKER_01]: So if they never need to buy something higher, they can. 26:27.580 --> 26:30.961 [SPEAKER_01]: We now have companies starting to plug into this. 26:30.981 --> 26:43.084 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a company that's essentially using a lot of ML and productizing its own agent, specific to P0, that source of CC yields 24, 7. 26:43.264 --> 26:51.827 [SPEAKER_01]: Because right now, one thing that he's here is missing is that even with strategies, it's still 26:52.807 --> 27:16.191 [SPEAKER_01]: You still have to check your strategy, like you got to go there and we have collateral and debt swap you never have to online your position or do a lot of these tedious rebalancing things that you normally would have to do if the yield changes, like you have collateral swap or debt swap into like a new strategy effortlessly utilizing our flash loans, but you still have to press that button with strategies. 27:16.891 --> 27:18.912 [SPEAKER_01]: So this would essentially 27:20.232 --> 27:23.615 [SPEAKER_01]: both with agents and with companies now utilizing those agents on P0. 27:26.750 --> 27:56.224 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you can do that multi-step decision making process, utilizing an agent, and I think that's pretty big on the lock, and this is something again that agents are already good at, like this isn't like something far on their rise and that we're like, oh, maybe someday, that maybe someday is more like, you know, again, by a stocky think is going to go up that that I think people will have a much harder time with. 27:57.627 --> 28:00.408 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we need that agent that finds it's the next 10x. 28:00.528 --> 28:04.290 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I haven't seen that happen yet. 28:04.370 --> 28:13.233 [SPEAKER_00]: I would be lying if I haven't asked an agent that just to see what it came back with, but I wouldn't recommend it for anybody in the audience. 28:13.753 --> 28:15.734 [SPEAKER_00]: I have to ask about a token. 28:15.814 --> 28:21.716 [SPEAKER_00]: I know you've talked openly about P0 and the token or a token and rewarding early users. 28:22.296 --> 28:23.457 [SPEAKER_00]: Where does it stand today? 28:28.290 --> 28:29.310 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 28:30.691 --> 28:50.281 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm very optimistic on how tokens are evolving in DFI right now, like you're saying a lot of rights be assigned to tokens across DFI, like with the SpaceX tokenized stocks, for example, all these other things. 28:50.841 --> 28:53.782 [SPEAKER_01]: And conversely, you're also seeing a lot of people 28:57.864 --> 29:05.352 [SPEAKER_01]: tokens that have like very little ownership ability or or connection to anything. 29:05.912 --> 29:21.787 [SPEAKER_01]: So one thing I think the industry is likely done wrong is a lot of these like from a legal perspective these like offshore came in foundations and like they admit a token and token kind of like is 29:22.929 --> 29:27.757 [SPEAKER_01]: owns nothing and the only value capture is that you can buy it back essentially. 29:29.775 --> 29:38.840 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not a fan of that, so we're going to do things very differently, P0. 29:41.042 --> 29:43.843 [SPEAKER_01]: That process has been done. 29:45.384 --> 29:54.270 [SPEAKER_01]: Now I'm mostly looking forward to the market shifting, like credit markets in DIFI have. 29:55.010 --> 30:02.776 [SPEAKER_01]: been hit pretty hard for the last eight months because of, you know, a lot of like geopolitics stuff that I ran worn. 30:03.597 --> 30:05.678 [SPEAKER_01]: And, and also, just people were, um, 30:09.473 --> 30:14.715 [SPEAKER_01]: People are a bit irrational and overly afraid of frontier models, just hacking everything. 30:16.196 --> 30:25.520 [SPEAKER_01]: What has actually happened is like, as these frontier models has emerged, you have this huge, huge, huge community of bug bunty. 30:26.881 --> 30:43.718 [SPEAKER_01]: bug bounty hunters just constantly submitting, you know, the smallest, not even, you know, vulnerability, but like something that, something that, you know, could be done better across like all major open source programs like PZR. 30:44.338 --> 30:44.819 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, 30:46.160 --> 31:07.517 [SPEAKER_01]: We have this army of bug bunty, bug bounty hunters, you know, assisted with, like, front-chair model AI technology, everything we, you know, push into production gets a audited twice by, you know, world class auditors, and we have our own, like, security, smart contract security, 31:09.439 --> 31:14.022 [SPEAKER_01]: review fuzzing testing system and also like engineer on our team. 31:14.142 --> 31:23.269 [SPEAKER_01]: So I've wanted those two variables to kind of get more solidified, one being like market conditions. 31:24.250 --> 31:28.833 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I want people to be able to comfortably price and growth to P0. 31:28.853 --> 31:30.614 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I don't want them to look at a market 31:33.336 --> 31:37.917 [SPEAKER_01]: and the immediate term and kind of panic. 31:38.017 --> 31:58.562 [SPEAKER_01]: And too, I want people to realize like the advantage that using open source software has right now, especially open source software with, you know, bug bounties and that works with the auditors and does all these these steps and how like bullet proof that it is actually 32:03.563 --> 32:11.145 [SPEAKER_01]: So once the market figures those two things out, I'll feel much more comfortable about a token. 32:11.645 --> 32:18.227 [SPEAKER_01]: I also want, I also want like a piece here to continue to kind of grow as a program. 32:18.247 --> 32:20.468 [SPEAKER_01]: Like we've moved very fast in the nine months. 32:20.528 --> 32:23.529 [SPEAKER_01]: We've been, we've been active. 32:23.669 --> 32:27.390 [SPEAKER_01]: We've integrated again like 98% of slow on a lending TVL. 32:28.010 --> 32:31.091 [SPEAKER_01]: And the nine months that we've been operating. 32:32.091 --> 32:44.836 [SPEAKER_01]: I'd love to start getting into derivatives as well, start integrating like person allowing for more really interesting multi venue portfolio setups for our traders. 32:45.477 --> 33:00.543 [SPEAKER_01]: So like a very product focused with that because ultimately like the token is a reflection of like the underlying product and you know organization behind it so that's like my my priority list with that. 33:02.077 --> 33:16.461 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I love how methodical you're being about a token it's it's important for any project to, you know, kind of think through the best way to roll that out and reward the early users and, you know, it's it can be a huge, huge point for any project. 33:17.781 --> 33:19.382 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's go a few years from now. 33:19.742 --> 33:27.784 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think users are getting even care what protocol they're money is on or they just get a managed one portfolio while the technology pretty much handles everything behind the scenes. 33:30.121 --> 33:37.989 [SPEAKER_01]: For something like yields and sourcing yields and borrowing, I actually, two years for now, I do think a lot of that will be I assisted. 33:38.049 --> 33:45.276 [SPEAKER_01]: So the interface with that should be something that is is accommodating to that. 33:48.179 --> 33:53.625 [SPEAKER_01]: So actually, yeah, that's that's kind of my belief there on on how that relates to my specific product. 33:53.645 --> 33:53.885 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 33:55.354 --> 34:03.838 [SPEAKER_00]: And one of one of my last questions here, Curious, what is your, what's the biggest change coming in DeFi that you think most people are really still underestimating? 34:05.539 --> 34:07.599 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it's full of proof software. 34:08.949 --> 34:16.034 [SPEAKER_01]: There is a finite amount of bugs for the introduced code, like code that is in production. 34:17.476 --> 34:23.280 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, obviously you're always adding new code or sometimes you're not, sometimes a lot of these programs are frozen. 34:24.621 --> 34:30.646 [SPEAKER_01]: But within production code that is, there's a finite amount of bugs. 34:34.532 --> 34:41.596 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, these models are getting quite good at just running 24-7, looking for the small issue. 34:42.777 --> 34:57.386 [SPEAKER_01]: And you can build a lot of pooling that these AI systems can use, like fuzzing like new tasks, etc., that word I'm doing, a piece hero, and other people are doing as well. 34:57.426 --> 34:57.526 [SPEAKER_01]: So 35:00.107 --> 35:10.380 [SPEAKER_01]: the battle scars and history of these D5 venues getting hacked and getting exploited and all these things going wrong. 35:12.102 --> 35:17.829 [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be very hard to introduce a vulnerable program that's open source without getting hammered by. 35:20.404 --> 35:21.546 [SPEAKER_01]: getting hammered early on. 35:22.187 --> 35:25.412 [SPEAKER_01]: So something that's been in production and just going through this process. 35:26.433 --> 35:31.921 [SPEAKER_01]: I think people just aren't ready for the fact that we're about to experience like, yeah, Bulletproof code. 35:32.602 --> 35:34.205 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm very excited about that. 35:34.995 --> 35:36.536 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that's a great take. 35:36.576 --> 35:44.883 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, both of software, it's hard not to think that's the direction we're headed and obviously where we need to be going. 35:44.923 --> 35:48.386 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to give everyone an opportunity to learn more about you. 35:48.546 --> 35:50.928 [SPEAKER_00]: And obviously learn more about P0. 35:50.988 --> 35:52.009 [SPEAKER_00]: How did they get started? 35:52.049 --> 35:55.632 [SPEAKER_00]: How did they find you, is it your website, is it X? 35:57.073 --> 35:58.034 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 35:58.794 --> 35:59.815 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think the best way to, 36:01.947 --> 36:20.926 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, find whatever channel you'd like to talk with me on is, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or see my stuff on is just my name dot CC Mac Brennan dot CC is my website and then, um, if you, you want to try p0 or learn about projects zero. 36:22.286 --> 36:22.806 [SPEAKER_01]: etc. 36:22.826 --> 36:34.050 [SPEAKER_01]: You just all you got to do is type in the numbers here like single number dot XYZ and we have a little demo for new users who are joining. 36:36.630 --> 36:38.271 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you're currently using. 36:41.072 --> 36:48.395 [SPEAKER_01]: Jupyter, Camino, fear drift to user, and we're increasingly adding more venues. 36:48.515 --> 36:55.558 [SPEAKER_01]: You should look at these here because you could likely unify your existing processing. 36:58.077 --> 36:59.658 [SPEAKER_00]: Amazing, didn't everybody in the audience? 36:59.678 --> 37:01.139 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna put all those links down below. 37:01.159 --> 37:03.560 [SPEAKER_00]: I highly recommend you take a look. 37:03.861 --> 37:04.661 [SPEAKER_00]: Killer website. 37:04.681 --> 37:12.486 [SPEAKER_00]: I love the P0, just the cleanness of it, and then when I was doing research for this, I was like, oh my gosh, this website zero dot XYZ. 37:13.386 --> 37:16.688 [SPEAKER_00]: Just, just killer domain, absolutely love it. 37:16.808 --> 37:19.770 [SPEAKER_00]: But, McBrighton, really appreciate you jumping on the podcast. 37:21.071 --> 37:22.572 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thanks for having me, I appreciate it.