[SPEAKER_01]: Have I got a crazy con story for all you singles out there, meeting people on apps?
[SPEAKER_01]: Falling for someone you meet on one of those dating apps can land you in a foreign prison for years with no hope of release.
[SPEAKER_01]: This story comes to us from the knife podcast hosted reported by the incredible Hannah Smith and Pasha Eaton.
[SPEAKER_01]: They interview family members of this poor woman trapped in prison because the guy she meets
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a different kind of scam that no one sees coming.
[SPEAKER_01]: This story has a slow build, but my god, the ending is mind-blowing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And for more crazy stories like this, just search the knife wherever you get your podcasts.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I turn you over to Hannah and Pasha and the knife episode 35.
[SPEAKER_01]: When trust becomes a trap.
[SPEAKER_05]: Pasha, Hannah, we have merch.
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[SPEAKER_04]: What a great pop of color for the season.
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[SPEAKER_05]: This story contains adult content and language.
[SPEAKER_05]: Listener discretion is advised.
[SPEAKER_05]: The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of the speaker and do not necessarily represent the knife or exactly right media.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he was saying, I just left the airport looking for your mama was there for two hours.
[SPEAKER_02]: I said to him, well, she landed this morning.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why weren't you there this morning to pick her up?
[SPEAKER_04]: Welcome to the knife.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm Pasha Eaton.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm Hannah Smith.
[SPEAKER_04]: This week we're speaking with two sisters Ashley and Crystal.
[SPEAKER_04]: In January of 2023, their 58 year old mother Donna was arrested in Tokyo on international drug smuggling charges.
[SPEAKER_04]: The news stunned her family, especially because Donna had long been fiercely anti-drug.
[SPEAKER_05]: Immediately, Ashley and Crystal knew this had something to do with the man named Kelly that Donna had met while online dating and developed a relationship with.
[SPEAKER_05]: Together, Ashley and Crystal told her family's heart-wrenching story of the elaborate scheme their mother became entraped in and their ongoing efforts for justice.
[SPEAKER_05]: Let's get into the interview.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Ashley and I'm Donna's second eldest daughter and I'm Crystal Donna's eldest daughter.
[SPEAKER_02]: We are both in Perth Western Australia.
[SPEAKER_05]: So tell us a little bit about what kind of person and what kind of mother your mother Donna Nelson is.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, our mum, she's 59 years old at the moment.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's a mother of five and a grandmother of three.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's an indigenous woman.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think she's always looked to fall in love ever since the breakup without dad.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I guess,
[SPEAKER_03]: She was a very devoted mother and wife.
[SPEAKER_03]: So when the breakup happened, I think she had lost a lot of her identity as well and didn't know where she fit in the world.
[SPEAKER_04]: Ashley and Crystal said their parents separated in 2003 after 20 years of marriage.
[SPEAKER_04]: They both remember the divorce being pretty hard on their mother Donna.
[SPEAKER_03]: for a long time, she had hopes that the relationship would reconcile, and I've been kept just got to a point where she realized it wasn't really going to happen.
[SPEAKER_03]: She stopped going to church as well, I guess she felt like she failed in that area.
[SPEAKER_03]: and it was quite a few years later that she started today, like a long time later, wasn't it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, mum's also the type of person who's always looking out for younger people, like looking out for people who are affected by substance abuse and, you know, drugs and alcohol and trying to help them move forward to have a better life.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's like Mum's life's work.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's always dedicated herself to people who need her.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she's always been the voice, but people who don't have a voice or comfortable speaking up.
[SPEAKER_04]: Donna poured her time and energy into helping others in her community, which was fulfilling, but the desire to find love again never left her.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so, she decided to try online dating.
[SPEAKER_04]: Donna cast a wide net geographically.
[SPEAKER_04]: She was looking for the right person, and she didn't want to limit herself to just dating someone who lived nearby.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it seemed to work.
[SPEAKER_04]: She met a man, he lived in the US, and eventually Donna went to meet him in person.
[SPEAKER_03]: She had met a man in Oklahoma and she had flown over there to go see him and they got along really well to the point where it wasn't really a relationship but they were able to remain friends and I feel right up until this happening even though we're still friends.
[SPEAKER_03]: Ashley net her husband through the internet as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: I met my husband through the internet.
[SPEAKER_03]: So she definitely saw it as a safe place to meet like a potential husband or lifelong partner.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I mean, I meant I husband online.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's a very common way to meet people.
[SPEAKER_05]: So Tana ends up meeting a guy online that actually lives in the US and goes all the way there to meet him to Oklahoma actually and he turns out to be this really nice guy but in the end it's not a romantic connection I imagine that that maybe gave her some confidence that dating someone even if they're in another country could still work out so then sometime during COVID she gets back on the dating apps and how does that go for her.
[SPEAKER_03]: So she met this guy, um, she started to talk to him quite frequently.
[SPEAKER_03]: He had adult children, he lived in Japan but traveled all around the world.
[SPEAKER_03]: He seemed very interested in like her life and what she was doing and her children as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's what really
[SPEAKER_02]: His name is Kelly.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what she said his name was.
[SPEAKER_02]: I remember it would have been in June of 2022 that I believe Mum first brought him up to me.
[SPEAKER_04]: of Donna's five daughters, Ashley is the self-proclaimed skeptic.
[SPEAKER_04]: When she heard about her mother's new online long-distance relationship with this man named Kelly, she was cautious.
[SPEAKER_04]: She warned Donna about online scammers and what red flags she should look out for.
[SPEAKER_04]: She said things like, never give out your bank account details.
[SPEAKER_02]: don't send him any money, don't accept anything from him.
[SPEAKER_02]: That sort of thing, but didn't really think too much of it because she said no, he doesn't ask me for anything and he's never asked me for any of my personal information.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I go through that pre-warning and didn't really think too much of it after that.
[SPEAKER_05]: tell us about like the progression of this new relationship.
[SPEAKER_03]: She would talk to him all the time.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes one would come over to our house or I'd pick her up to take her somewhere and he would call randomly.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we saw him on video calls and it was a very regular.
[SPEAKER_03]: I wouldn't even say daily thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes it was also out the day that they were speaking.
[SPEAKER_03]: He never really...
[SPEAKER_03]: spoke with us.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was just a quick hello.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll talk to you when you're back home.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let me know when you're home.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, I guess, in a way, I should have maybe saw that as a red flag if he was so interested to know more about the family, why did he not really engage in conversation with us?
[SPEAKER_03]: He always would want to only speak to mum when she was alone.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we definitely saw the frequency of the conversations.
[SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't until I think it was mid December 2022.
[SPEAKER_02]: that actually told me when she wanted to go and meet him in person, that I dug a bit further and started to ask her, okay so his name is Kelly, does he have any identification, what does he do, where does he live, all sorts of questions and that's when I found out that he told her that his
[SPEAKER_02]: Rex, but his nickname is Kelly, and I didn't think it was strange that his nickname was Kelly, because we have family members who have very strange nicknames as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's kind of normally now family, so someone to be given a nickname that you can't really see where it comes from.
[SPEAKER_02]: But she sent me a copy of his Japanese residence card that looked kind of legit.
[SPEAKER_02]: I asked her if she had any photos of him and she said no, they were on his dating profile and he deactivated it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I asked her the next time you have a video call with Kelly, can you just take a screenshot of his face?
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's where the original photo of Kelly came from.
[SPEAKER_02]: She said that he owned his own clothing design business where he designed women's gowns, Kutua gowns, and that he had shops in several locations worldwide.
[SPEAKER_05]: OK. Yeah, how did your mom seem to be feeling in the relationship?
[SPEAKER_03]: It seems to be feeling really secure and really excited about meeting him.
[SPEAKER_03]: She would say, oh, I've finally got someone that is going to look after me.
[SPEAKER_03]: He doesn't want anything from me because in the relationships that she had had before this,
[SPEAKER_03]: it was always, someone that she was almost sort of, I wouldn't say a project, but lady like they weren't set up or established the way that she was and it was more, she would sort of take care of them or she would help them to find a job and set them up and build them up to be like,
[SPEAKER_03]: a strong independent person that equally contributes in every way in the relationship.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this was the first time that she was finding somebody who needed nothing from her.
[SPEAKER_03]: So she was really excited about that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Crystal was happy for her mom.
[SPEAKER_04]: She could tell how excited Donna was.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it was nice to see her feeling loved, especially after spending so much of her life caring for others.
[SPEAKER_04]: But then Donna started to talk about getting married to Kelly.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that was a little alarming.
[SPEAKER_04]: After all, none of them had met him.
[SPEAKER_04]: At the same time, the wedding talk didn't seem all that real to Crystal.
[SPEAKER_04]: Donna and Kelly had been planning to just meet in person for over a year and that still hadn't happened.
[SPEAKER_04]: So how real could this wedding talk be?
[SPEAKER_03]: The wedding was going to be in Nigeria where he was from.
[SPEAKER_03]: So he lived in Japan, but would fly back and forth to Nigeria very often or his family with back there.
[SPEAKER_03]: He wanted a big traditional wedding and it was kind of like he was really proud to be having her as his wife and wanted to show her to all of his family and for us to meet all of his
[SPEAKER_03]: I remember thinking when she said that she was going to get married to this guy and how the wedding would sort of be.
[SPEAKER_03]: I sort of thought, well, that's nice.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I wasn't really sure if it would really happen yet because they hadn't.
[SPEAKER_03]: met in person and so I thought once they met in person she'd know for sure and have a better idea and she had been talking about meeting up with him and I remember saying to her how about he come to Perth and meet you here first and then we all get to meet him we can see what we think of
[SPEAKER_03]: And she had gone away and spoken to him about that and he sort of brought up how busy he was with his work and that it probably wouldn't be something that he'd be able to do.
[SPEAKER_03]: Then she brought up Japan and before that she brought up Brazil.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I know I was thinking, these are countries where the people don't really speak English.
[SPEAKER_03]: Can he not come here first?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I feel much better about you coming here.
[SPEAKER_03]: She again would go away to him and express her concerns.
[SPEAKER_03]: And his response which I thought was quite reassuring was
[SPEAKER_03]: that he would be willing to have one or several of us go over with her if we're so worried, she can take some people with her so that she feels more comfortable or so that we feel more comfortable about her going.
[SPEAKER_03]: When he sort of said that I thought I will, someone who's in it for something else would not care to make an offer like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: It didn't really bring any red flags for me.
[SPEAKER_03]: It actually made me feel like, oh, wow, he's really considering her and how we feel and how concerns he's got nothing to hide.
[SPEAKER_04]: Donna and Kelly continue to talk about meeting in person, but there were still no concrete plans.
[SPEAKER_04]: In the meantime, they spoke daily on the phone or on FaceTime.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think one thing to add about him in general is the way that he structured his story to mum.
[SPEAKER_02]: He made himself very palatable to her as a divorcee with children because he claimed to be divorce from his Japanese wife and had three sons.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's a huge part for mum because
[SPEAKER_02]: He didn't claim to be this young fit muscular, but long-to-head blue eyed guy who wanted to be in a relationship with a, he was an older guy.
[SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't very strikingly handsome sort of person.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was just like an average older guy.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was a divorcee and his life was sorted out.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and I mean, they seemed very aligned and like their station in life, and I can totally see that would be reassuring.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, I also wanted to touch on something I read researching the story that you can maybe tell me about, which is where they're looking at homes together during this time.
[SPEAKER_03]: He had inquired about homes in Australia.
[SPEAKER_03]: So he wanted to move over here and build a life of her so that she could be close to her family.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think she really sold her on his commitment to family and supporting her with her family commitments.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: You mentioned he said he had children as well.
[SPEAKER_05]: Did she ever speak with his kids over FaceTime or however they were communicating?
[SPEAKER_03]: No.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think these children of his really existed.
[SPEAKER_03]: One was a doctor or studying to be a doctor.
[SPEAKER_03]: One was a lawyer and one was something else.
[SPEAKER_03]: So he really gave off this well-grounded, successful life and that his family were on that path as well.
[SPEAKER_04]: After two and a half years of dating remotely, Donna announced she was finally going to meet Kelly in person.
[SPEAKER_04]: This was September of 2022.
[SPEAKER_04]: Apparently, Kelly said he would cover the cost of the plane ticket.
[SPEAKER_04]: Initially, the plan was to meet up in Hong Kong, but that changed.
[SPEAKER_03]: then after that it was going to be Brazil because he also said he had a brother who had a construction business and he was set up in Brazil so yeah he just seemed to travel around a lot and it depended on where he would be at the time and then oh gosh it was very last minutes
[SPEAKER_04]: In September of 2022, Donna and Kelly were making plans to meet in person for the very first time after dating remotely for two years.
[SPEAKER_04]: Kelly kept telling Donna, he wanted to purchase her plane ticket to Japan.
[SPEAKER_04]: Except the months started to go by and still there was no plane ticket.
[SPEAKER_04]: They would decide on a date for her to leave.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then Kelly would change that plan last minute.
[SPEAKER_04]: Something would come up and it didn't work for her anymore.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then they would set a new date, but then that date would come and go.
[SPEAKER_04]: No concrete plan, no plan to get.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then suddenly it was late December of 2022 and the holidays were upon them.
[SPEAKER_04]: And still Donna had no idea when or even if she was going to Japan.
[SPEAKER_03]: So she was originally meant to go to Japan at some point early in December, but she kept asking him, like, when am I going, when are you going to send my flight details through?
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's just seemed to not be happening.
[SPEAKER_03]: So she focused her attention on, like, enjoying Christmas with us all.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we had Christmas day that was really good.
[SPEAKER_03]: When she was questioning, why haven't you got my flights?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, is this even going to happen?
[SPEAKER_03]: I really want to see you.
[SPEAKER_03]: He was having the excuse that it's the Christmas period.
[SPEAKER_03]: Things are really busy.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm trying to get the flights sorted.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then a few days after Christmas, Kelly told Donna, the ticket had been purchased.
[SPEAKER_04]: So Donna headed to the airport excited to finally be going to Japan.
[SPEAKER_03]: she gets to be here for that night and she goes to put in her flight details on the machines and there's a no flight.
[SPEAKER_03]: So she goes home, she's feeling really down and I think she was sort of
[SPEAKER_03]: And then it was a few days later when it might have been the 29th, where he says, oh, you're going to go tomorrow.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so it was, yeah, it was a massive blur.
[SPEAKER_03]: We didn't really get time to sit down and have a conversation with her.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was a very active period where, you know,
[SPEAKER_03]: mum's already said she's going on a flight which didn't eventually.
[SPEAKER_03]: Also out December she wasn't given flight details.
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess in a way I sort of didn't think she was going to go.
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought he's stalling like he doesn't really want to meet her.
[SPEAKER_04]: Even though Donna had been talking about meeting Kelly for years, there had never been a plane ticket.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then suddenly there was, and Donna was set to leave in less than 24 hours.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was in the middle of the holiday rush, and Ashley and Crystal said everything was so hectic they barely had time to talk with their mom about the trip.
[SPEAKER_04]: Crystal said she felt like this was something her mother was determined to do after two years of talking online to Kelly she wanted to know if the relationship was real if it was going anywhere.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think she really, really had her heart set on going to finally meet this guy.
[SPEAKER_03]: It had been so long.
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel as though in her mind, it was like, I need to go meet him now, like to progress this relationship.
[SPEAKER_03]: You can't just stay at this point.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think it's gonna go any further.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's sort of the vibe that I got, especially with,
[SPEAKER_03]: the flights that he was planning to take her on and never really did.
[SPEAKER_03]: It just seemed like a lot of failed promises at that point and she just really wanted to go meet him to see like, are we compatible in person?
[SPEAKER_03]: Is this going to work?
[SPEAKER_03]: but just before she left, it was such a blur.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I had a quite young daughter at the time.
[SPEAKER_03]: One of the other sisters had a quite young son and I remember we were very flat out with those two.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the last time I saw mum before she left, my other sister and I were at a water park with the kids and mum, she was really stressed out in that time, I think she was just,
[SPEAKER_03]: flustered, trying to have everything organized.
[SPEAKER_03]: She didn't want to forget her passport.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I guess it sort of showed when the trial was on and we saw her suitcase that she had.
[SPEAKER_03]: there was like very few belongings in there.
[SPEAKER_03]: You think that she was going there in December, January when it's winter time in Japan.
[SPEAKER_03]: She didn't have any winter clothes.
[SPEAKER_03]: She didn't have any jackets or anything like that.
[SPEAKER_05]: So she does end up going to Japan.
[SPEAKER_05]: When do you first hear that something has gone wrong?
[SPEAKER_02]: So before Mum left, we've got her to download the life 360 app so we can track her.
[SPEAKER_02]: So once she landed at Marita Airport in Tokyo, we could say that she landed.
[SPEAKER_02]: She messaged us and told us, just landed and told us how cold it was, had a little back and forth laugh about the weather and then it was just silence.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that was first thing in the morning that she landed like seven a.m. local time.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was about, I'll say, one p.m. first time.
[SPEAKER_02]: which is 2pm Japan time.
[SPEAKER_02]: We haven't heard anything and I messaged all my sisters and said has anyone heard from mum.
[SPEAKER_02]: I figured my sisters with the babies would have heard from her first and as everyone started to come back and say no I haven't heard from her then it started to make us all very worried.
[SPEAKER_02]: I could see on the tracking app that she was still at the airport but she wasn't
[SPEAKER_03]: And it was very out of the ordinary that we didn't hear from mum, because I just wanted to add that mum is the kind of person who we would speak to her, not even just once in the day.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like there were constant conversations and video calls or throughout the day.
[SPEAKER_04]: Donna was usually in constant contact with her children, but she'd gone silent.
[SPEAKER_04]: On that very first day, Ashley printed out any information that she had about Kelly, including a screenshot of his face that she'd encouraged her mother to take during one of their face times.
[SPEAKER_04]: She gathered it all up and she headed to her local police station.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I told them, I want to lodge a missing person's report for my mom.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's overseas in Tokyo.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's landed there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I said, I know that it takes 24 hours at least until you can lodge a missing person's report.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if it's out of the ordinary, then you can do it sooner.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is out of the ordinary for my mom.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that night, I did that missing person's report while I was speaking with a police officer in an interrogation room, Kelly called me and he was looking for my mom and he was saying, I just left the airport looking for your mom.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was there for two hours and I said to him, well, she landed this morning.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why weren't you there this morning to pick her up?
[SPEAKER_02]: Why are you only there tonight?
[SPEAKER_02]: And the police officer was guiding me and saying, what to say to him, to gain information from him, but not tell him anything.
[SPEAKER_02]: And in our little report, he had noted down that I received a phone call from a man with a Nigerian accent.
[SPEAKER_02]: And after that, the missing person's report was done.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I knew I had to do that to open a consular case
[SPEAKER_02]: So the next morning I called our Consular Emergency Center and asked them to create a case for my mum.
[SPEAKER_02]: They didn't have the missing person's report information, so I made sure the police sent that through to them.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's on the fifth of January.
[SPEAKER_02]: She landed on the fourth of January, around year 7am.
[SPEAKER_02]: Then the consular case was created on the 5th of January and they told us, look, it might take a few days or it could take a week or it could take a couple weeks to locate your mum.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we asked them if they could please no matter what time it was.
[SPEAKER_02]: As soon as they got information back about our mum, could they make sure that someone calls us?
[SPEAKER_05]: At this point in all of this, what did your local police local law enforcement think might be happening during those first 24 hours because, you know, was unusual that she just went completely silent and she's been at the airport and the person that she was lying to meet there can't find her and what what did they think might be happening.
[SPEAKER_02]: the place didn't indicate what the thought process was.
[SPEAKER_02]: They did say it was a little bit strange and they did say to me once they heard Kelly call me and they heard that conversation they did say that that's very suspicious.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's all they indicated to me.
[SPEAKER_05]: What about the call that law enforcement over her had made them say that's suspicious?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's the fact that he wasn't waiting at the airport for her when she was only there to meet him.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the fact that he wasn't there at the time that she arrived, he was there at least 12 hours later.
[SPEAKER_02]: or maybe over 10 hours later, he went to the airport to look for her.
[SPEAKER_02]: So she landed at 7 a.m. local time and he wasn't there until 6 p.m. local time.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's like 11 hours later.
[SPEAKER_02]: But also it was how he was talking, I think he mentioned that he knew a lawyer, he might be able to help and they were like,
[SPEAKER_04]: It was all so strange why had Donna gone silent and why was Kelly calling Ashley 12 hours after he was supposed to pick Donna up from the airport in Tokyo.
[SPEAKER_04]: And even stranger, why did he think she needed a lawyer?
[SPEAKER_04]: Crystal, Ashley and the rest of the family had no idea where their mother was.
[SPEAKER_04]: They called the airport, but it was hard to get any information with the language barrier.
[SPEAKER_04]: They reached out to Vietnam Airlines, the carrier Donna had flown on, and they were told only this.
[SPEAKER_04]: The flight had landed safely in Tokyo, but Donna had not picked up her checked bag.
[SPEAKER_04]: All they could do was wait and hope that she was okay, and that someone somewhere would call with news.
[SPEAKER_03]: You just fail seek for
[SPEAKER_03]: And less amount of time, you can't sleep, you can't eat.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're just worried there's no way to contact her.
[SPEAKER_03]: You go from thinking the worst to, I know the best that I was thinking was, on maybe she's filled out the immigration part wrong and they have not accepted her and she's just on a flight right now coming home.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then you bounce to,
[SPEAKER_03]: If she dead somewhere, like did something happen to her and this person's not telling us anything, is she in a hospital somewhere and you start googling all the different hospitals over there and you just don't know where to start.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know we had the thought of trying to call as many police stations and hospitals as we could, but it just felt like a needle in a haystack.
[SPEAKER_03]: You
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's just a horrible feeling.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so when do you learn what has happened and sort of take me to that moment?
[SPEAKER_03]: So in the days, leading up, we were really struggling.
[SPEAKER_03]: Ash was over in Brisbane.
[SPEAKER_03]: The rest of us were here in Perth.
[SPEAKER_03]: We weren't really eating or getting any sleep.
[SPEAKER_03]: So our dad had kind of made a commitment that each day we're going to catch up at a park or something and just get out and get some fresh air, have some time together.
[SPEAKER_03]: This was now on the Saturday and dad wanted to take us out to lunch.
[SPEAKER_03]: So this place where we went to go have lunch, it was out in a PR and it was really lovely and a sunny day and it was about an hour's drive from where we all live.
[SPEAKER_03]: we got out there and I remember it was the first real meal that I had been able to eat in those days and just as I had gotten through it, I see Dad's phone ring and he kind of quietly gets up and walks away.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then I just sense like, this is not good.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is someone calling about mum and it's not going to be good.
[SPEAKER_03]: A few minutes later, dad returns and we all leave the table where we're eating and go to a, I wouldn't even say quiet spot.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just a footpath out the front of the restaurant.
[SPEAKER_03]: and ashes on the phone at this point with Dad.
[SPEAKER_03]: Dad's really serious and sticks us all down and I can't remember the words, but he just sort of breaks the news that mum is okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's safe.
[SPEAKER_03]: but she's been arrested, she's not coming home, and she's been arrested for drug smuggling.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I remember thinking in that moment, oh, it's all a big mistake, like,
[SPEAKER_03]: she would get allergies and I knew like Japan, though they were very strict on what medications you can bring into the country.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I thought maybe she's taken some of her allergy steroids and that's what it is.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's all just a big mistake.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's no way mom would ever be involved in anything to do with drugs.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's all a big mistake and I asked dad, is it her medication and
[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't want to know anything else beyond yes or no.
[SPEAKER_03]: So he just said, no, it's not.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's when he said she had 1.8 kilograms of methane fedemine.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's where it was really confusing because we all kind of like how did this happen?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because we know mum and
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, the person who raises you, you know that they're I totally against drugs, like their life's work has been, you know, helping the people affected by drugs and alcohol.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we'll kind of like, how did this happen?
[SPEAKER_02]: I just had a weird feeling.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just thought, okay, it's Kelly.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's got to be Kelly.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's when I didn't speak to him again after that moment.
[SPEAKER_02]: I blocked him because I thought, oh, this man's involved in some really bad stuff.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was shocking for them to hear that Donna had been arrested at the Tokyo airport for the possession of meth and fatamine.
[SPEAKER_04]: This was their same mother who had devoted years to helping her community combat the harms of addiction.
[SPEAKER_04]: Donna had also carefully planned what medications she even brought on the trip, knowing full well that Japan's drug laws are notoriously strict.
[SPEAKER_04]: Ashley said she knew immediately that Kelly was somehow behind this.
[SPEAKER_04]: Many details would come out later during Donna's trial, including something that happened during Donna's three-day layover in Laos before flying to Tokyo.
[SPEAKER_02]: So she was in Laos for three days and he told her that she needed to stay there for three days because it was the holiday period and there weren't many flight options.
[SPEAKER_02]: They were like really busy, it's like a busy period or whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's why she stayed in Laos for three days and then ended up going to Japan.
[SPEAKER_02]: But really he had someone meet her in Laos at her hotel and he was a business partner of
[SPEAKER_05]: And why did Kelly need a business partner of his to meet this woman that he's been dating at her hotel?
[SPEAKER_02]: So there were discussions that Mum was having with Kelly that we found out during the trial where they were talking about he needed a certain type of suitcase for his business.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was expanding his clothing design business to include a line of suitcases and
[SPEAKER_02]: Mum tried looking for one in Australia, but apparently there were none that were what he wanted, then he said, I will figure it out and he ended up getting his business partner
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, put all of your stuff into this suitcase and get rid of your own and bring this with you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the tricky part about the suitcase is, firstly, the timing of when they brought it to mum.
[SPEAKER_02]: She had like 15 minutes.
[SPEAKER_02]: to leave the hotel and get to the airport to check in for her flight.
[SPEAKER_02]: So she's like flight stirred and she just wants to just get on her flight and this guy brings the suitcase and it had some fabrics like clothing,
[SPEAKER_02]: in there.
[SPEAKER_02]: That mum and Kelly haven't discussed.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so instead of mum being able to examine the suitcase on its own, it's like the clothing was put in there to distract her and get her to focus on that instead of the suitcase itself.
[SPEAKER_05]: Because she did open it up and look.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and when she looked at the clothing, she called Kelly and said, what is this clothing doing inside the suitcase?
[SPEAKER_02]: We didn't discuss any clothing and he said, these are samples for my business.
[SPEAKER_02]: Please bring them with you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so she kind of like lifted the clothing, looked in her, didn't say anything of concern.
[SPEAKER_02]: She tried to examine the suitcase a bit and didn't say anything concerning.
[SPEAKER_02]: So she just put her things into the suitcase and quickly got into a taxi and went to the airport.
[SPEAKER_04]: Donna's family knew their mother was in big legal trouble in a foreign country.
[SPEAKER_04]: Once again, Ashley sprang into action, collecting information that she thought might be useful for her mother's case.
[SPEAKER_04]: She gathered email correspondence between her mother and Kelly, and any other document she could think of that might help prove that Donna was an upstanding person who just trusted the wrong guy.
[SPEAKER_04]: They also needed legal help.
[SPEAKER_04]: Ashley said she just googled, English speaking lawyers and Japan, and eventually found
[SPEAKER_04]: And that is when more details started to come out, such as how the drugs were expertly hidden inside the suitcase.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the suitcase had like little grooves.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, you get the ones with the grooves on the end.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the drugs were like finger-shaped little lengths in plastic.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they were in the grooves.
[SPEAKER_03]: So even if you are to press down and feel all around the suitcase, you're not going to feel what's in those grooves.
[SPEAKER_05]: really well hidden and your mom even went through the contents of the suitcase, but like how could she have ever known?
[SPEAKER_05]: How much time does Donna spend from the moment that she's taken into custody to the trial?
[SPEAKER_03]: So she was taken into custody on the fourth of January, 2023, and her trial began with November 2024.
[SPEAKER_02]: From the moment mom was arrested, up until she testified in her trial, which started
[SPEAKER_02]: of November.
[SPEAKER_02]: As soon as mum finished her testimony, that's when the communication ban was lifted and we could finally communicate with our mum.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that whole time we weren't allowed to write to her speak to her anything.
[SPEAKER_05]: And am I understanding correctly?
[SPEAKER_05]: That's 23 months.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the first time we're seeing her hearing her voice having any sort of interaction with her
[SPEAKER_03]: is locking eyes with her when we're seeing her in her trail.
[SPEAKER_02]: And even then, the girls weren't allowed to hug mum or even say anything to her.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was kind of like a hello, because you can get in trouble like mum can get in trouble.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it was sort of secretly like, mimeing, I love you, and hoping that the judges don't see.
[SPEAKER_04]: Donna was 58 years old at the time of her trial.
[SPEAKER_04]: She'd already spent almost a year in jail in Japan unable to speak to or see her loved ones.
[SPEAKER_04]: Her family fluted Japan for the trial and they were hopeful.
[SPEAKER_04]: They felt strongly that they could prove Donna had absolutely no idea about the drugs in the suitcase.
[SPEAKER_04]: She'd been tricked.
[SPEAKER_03]: One of the customs offices being interviewed
[SPEAKER_03]: He had about 20 years of experience in the job, and they asked him, you with all your experience, looking at this suitcase, would you have been able to tell that there were drugs inside this suitcase?
[SPEAKER_03]: Not lifting it up, but by looking at it, would you have been able to know and his answer was no.
[SPEAKER_02]: When they delivered their verdict, they admitted that mum was the victim of a romance scam and they also said that because she had been tricked by Kelly potential husband that she deserved sympathy and that's why they gave her a six year sentence because realistically she was facing at least 20.
[SPEAKER_02]: but they also said she ignored red flags as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's where they based that verdict on is her ignoring red flags in their opinion.
[SPEAKER_05]: What did it feel like to hear that verdict?
[SPEAKER_03]: It was very, very hard.
[SPEAKER_03]: So in the courtroom, everything spoken in Japanese, but there was a translator there for mum's benefit.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so mum had like the earpiece on and the translator had an earpiece on.
[SPEAKER_03]: And she was speaking very, very softly.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I heard six years and something to the equivalent of $10,000 in a fine I didn't really register at the time because the talking kept continuing and then I saw all of the media jump up and rush out so I looked at my husband and ask what is it?
[SPEAKER_03]: he said six years and he had to rush out to quickly notify the rest of the family before they found out through the media.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I was in there watching mum trying to take in all this information which was really hard.
[SPEAKER_03]: She had her head down on the desk and was crying and
[SPEAKER_03]: when she was leaving, I kind of mind to her, don't worry, we'll get you home.
[SPEAKER_03]: And she just cried and uttered about my grandchildren.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think the thought of, you know, six years for such little people, they're going to be completely different people by the time she gets to see them.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that was the hardest thing for her to take in.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was just a real shock.
[SPEAKER_03]: I felt like it
[SPEAKER_03]: wasn't right.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was worried about how she was going to cope is her health going to be okay and it was just very difficult.
[SPEAKER_05]: What are her conditions in prison?
[SPEAKER_05]: What is her
[SPEAKER_02]: We like to say room.
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't like to say anything else, but she's in her room for 23 and a half hours per day.
[SPEAKER_02]: She showers twice a week and at this stage because she's now changed from a
[SPEAKER_02]: in there, which from what I understand is done in her room.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think that she gets to interact with others.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not sure on that at this point, because it's the transition to being a sentence prisoner as a new one.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we depend heavily on
[SPEAKER_03]: we don't get phone calls or anything like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: So when we receive a letter from her, it's usually about three weeks after she's written a letter.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we never really know how she's doing in real time unless the concealer officers have been able to visit.
[SPEAKER_05]: So as it stands today, when is your mother's release date?
[SPEAKER_02]: Her projected release date is early February, 2021.
[SPEAKER_04]: Donna's lawyers filed an appeal, but it was denied.
[SPEAKER_04]: Ashley and Crystal say they've never been able to speak to their mother on the phone.
[SPEAKER_04]: The only way to reach her are through letters that take weeks to travel between Japan and Australia or through rare in-person visits.
[SPEAKER_04]: Before this, they'd never even heard of an elder drug muel scam, but since their mother's case, they've learned about others.
[SPEAKER_04]: People lured in by online romance, unknowingly used to transport drugs, now serving sentences in foreign prisons.
[SPEAKER_04]: Their families left behind desperate to figure out how to help.
[SPEAKER_04]: Meanwhile, the people who orchestrated it all, the ones who set the trap are long gone.
[SPEAKER_04]: As far as we know, Kelly, or Rex, or whoever he is, has never faced any legal consequences.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is he in Japan?
[SPEAKER_03]: Is he in Nigeria?
[SPEAKER_03]: Is he in one of these other places that he had invited mom to go to?
[SPEAKER_02]: There were potential sightings of Kelly in Hong Kong after a reporter started doing an investigation, but we're not sure if anything came of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if it is him,
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, of course, far as we know he hasn't been held accountable for anything and he's just free to find his next victims because we do know Mum wasn't the only person he was speaking to, there were at least two other women even in the U.S.
[SPEAKER_02]: But he was speaking to
[SPEAKER_05]: How did you learn that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Through the lawyers they had reviewed evidence on mum's phone where he had accidentally screenshoted the information and sent it to mum and it was it showed a name and it said I think it was a name, age and location and it was for two women that were texting him.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's like text notifications and, yeah, it's said to say, Donna, 57 or 58 in Australia.
[SPEAKER_03]: Even going back to the Hong Kong part where there was a reporter who went over there, so he went there to meet with an Australian priest who helps women in the same sort of situation.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's like a prison chaplain.
[SPEAKER_03]: He had met this reporter and he had a photo of Kelly that he took into the women's prison and showed it to some of the inmates there and there were several inmates there who said that this was the person that they dealt with and they're in prison in Hong Kong for drug smuggling.
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_05]: So he has many victims.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, and it stands in various locations throughout the world.
[SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_05]: That is just unbelievable.
[SPEAKER_05]: So are there any other sort of legal avenues or ways to potentially try to appeal Donna's conviction at this point?
[SPEAKER_02]: Mum has waived her right to a second appeal to the Supreme Court, the reasons being is because there's only a 0.3% chance of success, plus they don't accept, they don't accept to mute evidence.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm wondering, just because I feel like the story is so compelling, I think, because your mom did nothing wrong, and is this beloved member of her family and her community, and yet she's in this unimaginable situation, and there are many victims of a crime like this.
[SPEAKER_05]: She is at the center, but of course her family who now misses her,
[SPEAKER_05]: How do you, for your children who are growing really quickly while she is in custody in Japan?
[SPEAKER_05]: How do you sort of keep her presence active in their minds during this time?
[SPEAKER_03]: So my daughter is five now.
[SPEAKER_03]: Obviously she doesn't understand or doesn't have any awareness of where her grandmother is and why.
[SPEAKER_03]: We tell her that her grandmother works on the planes and she flies around fighting fires and saving lives.
[SPEAKER_03]: So whenever she sees a plane flying over
[SPEAKER_03]: would always have these ice creams in her freezer.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like these little drumstick ones, I don't know if you guys have them, like where we were going to.
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh yeah, I think it's up to you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so those used to be mum's favorite ice creams and her freezer was always stopped with them.
[SPEAKER_03]: And my daughter, whenever she'd go to mum's house, would like go straight to the freezer and grab one.
[SPEAKER_03]: So whenever my daughter's not home
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll bring those back and put them in our freezer and we just sort of say oh and then he's been passed and she's dropped off some ice cream for you.
[SPEAKER_03]: We play videos for her, we show her photos,
[SPEAKER_03]: mum always writes letters and in the letters she'll include like two pages that are sketches that she's done for the two little kids and it will be like Lilo and Stitch or Spider-Man or she'll always do a drawing with their names on it for them so it's a special treat that they get to have.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think something that's a little bit sad and it makes mum sad as well is
[SPEAKER_03]: whenever like there's an eyelash and you have to blow it and make a wish or when you blow out a candle and make a wish or there's a shooting star.
[SPEAKER_03]: My daughter's wish is always I wish that he could come home now.
[SPEAKER_03]: As she gets older, like I really hope that we can have mum, home as soon as we can have her home, because I don't know how I would explain what the situation is to her.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it would break her little heart to understand.
[SPEAKER_02]: where grandmother is and mum also has an older grandson he's 16 so it's obviously he knows exactly what's going on and he's got to deal with you know seeing the media staff he understands that all of that stuff is really good for mum situation because it highlights her case it keeps her
[SPEAKER_02]: in the public eye sort of thing, um, and applies the pressure where it needs to be applied, but he still goes to school where his man used to drop him off and pick him up every day and they'd have their own time and he doesn't have her, hasn't had her in almost three years now.
[SPEAKER_05]: How is she holding up and all of this?
[SPEAKER_03]: She's the strongest person I know and when and all of this started, if I was to have known that she'd still be not home by this time, I wouldn't have thought she'd.
[SPEAKER_03]: Still be the same her that we know and love, but she's really focused on her Christianity and her work with God.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's given her a lot of strength.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's helped her that she can now have letters because up until December last year she wasn't able to have any letters.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's somebody who always thinks of others and as hard as this situation is for her.
[SPEAKER_03]: She doesn't think of it like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: She thinks of how hard it is for us.
[SPEAKER_03]: She thinks of the other women who are her neighbors over there and how hard it is for them.
[SPEAKER_03]: She thinks about how,
[SPEAKER_03]: they do not get to have visitors, they may not be sent money for food items like she is sent.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's always looking at, well, this person has it worse than me.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's just such a strong person.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I mean, it's um, you know, I think people like her out make everybody want to be better.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's like, I think being able to think of others when you're in that situation and definitely palpable how important she is to everyone who knows her.
[SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, her story is so important because of the, I think, increasing prevalence of
[SPEAKER_05]: you know, there's a lot of shame that some people carry when this happens to them and it's like these con artists, they do a really good job finding out what is important to someone and praying on that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Ah, this episode was so heartbreaking to me.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, there's no silver lining in these moments, but it was one of those interviews where I was glad they were together, Ashley and Crystal, which we typically don't do.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, they told the story really well together.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I mean, they're only two of her five daughters.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it was really, they were representing her family.
[SPEAKER_04]: But, you know, we had been wanting to tell a story like this for a while because we heard about this elder drug meal scam a couple
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and thought that it would be a great story, especially because I just feel like a lot of people don't know about this a lot of people don't know about it and we're in this I feel like maybe it's just our age group or our generation right now where our parents are aging and technology has changed so quickly that you know recently I even told a story on here about a very small time skim my grandpa almost got caught up in and so it's like
[SPEAKER_05]: I just have to imagine our listenership, maybe no someone who could potentially be someone who's targeted for a scam like this, which is really scary totally.
[SPEAKER_04]: And there was a bright spot in this otherwise heartbreaking story we actually ended up cutting it out for time, but we wanted to mention it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Ashley and Crystal told us that there is this American woman who lives in Tokyo, who had heard about Donna's story.
[SPEAKER_04]: She'd never met Donna before, but now she goes and regularly visits her in prison, which I think is so sweet.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's so sweet, and it has to just feel so good for Donna to have someone there in this place that she's so unfamiliar with where she doesn't speak the language, visit her
[SPEAKER_05]: you know, show her support in person.
[SPEAKER_05]: And also, you know, to then be able to communicate with Donna's family.
[SPEAKER_05]: Hey, I saw her today.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, just as someone laid eyes on her has to just be so nice to hear.
[SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_05]: Ashley said something in the interview that I just think is so insightful, and that is that seeing someone on FaceTime or any sort of visual, like Zoom these days, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're credible or that they're legit.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think that maybe 10 years ago, that's kind of the stories we were hearing about online dating scams was, oh, he could never FaceTime, his FaceTime was always frozen, or his computer didn't work, and
[SPEAKER_05]: that doesn't always now act as like a gauge of whether or not someone is actually who they say they are.
[SPEAKER_05]: Because you can get on FaceTime and you can still be lying about everything.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh yeah, the red flags to look out for.
[SPEAKER_04]: It feels like a game of whack-a-mo, like it's always changing because Ashley talked about warning her mom about all the common red flags that she would think of to warn someone like, don't give out your bank account information.
[SPEAKER_04]: but none of that actually ended up being very relevant in this case because the red flags were so different.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it made me think of this other story.
[SPEAKER_05]: Well, yeah, I actually want to touch on that very second because also one thing that stuck out to me is like, okay, you're traveling to Japan just like they were.
[SPEAKER_05]: I would have my own hesitations about
[SPEAKER_05]: a family member traveling alone to a foreign country to meet someone that they'd so far only met online.
[SPEAKER_05]: However, it's like Donna had traveled internationally before to meet someone to meet online and that person was who they said they were.
[SPEAKER_05]: And even though it doesn't totally calm your fears, I think it reinforces the idea that that's possible that you're not necessarily being scammed.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's possible to date someone in a different country and
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so there was this other case.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's multiple, but I wanted to touch on this other case.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's actually from 2014, but this man named Ralph Souls was caught in a very similar type of scheme.
[SPEAKER_04]: He was 74 years old at the time.
[SPEAKER_04]: And he was caught transporting methamphetamine into New Zealand, was arrested and then spent 18 months in custody.
[SPEAKER_04]: He ended up getting out, you know, it also depends on what country you're in and what their laws are around this.
[SPEAKER_04]: But what happened with him was that he met someone online who said that he wanted to invest in his business.
[SPEAKER_04]: And they started chatting, became friends,
[SPEAKER_04]: So this man said his name was Lawrence Green, which was not his real name.
[SPEAKER_04]: And in 2013, Ralph got in the plane for Johannesburg South Africa to meet Green in order to set up some big accounts to start this business.
[SPEAKER_04]: As soon as he got there, he got a message from Green saying, actually, oh, I had to leave for Fiji.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm on vacation in Fiji.
[SPEAKER_04]: Can you meet me there?
[SPEAKER_04]: And it was a very similar thing to this story.
[SPEAKER_04]: He said, oh, and by the way, I have this suitcase, do you mind grabbing it and bringing it with you?
[SPEAKER_04]: Ralph also opened the suitcase, looked through it, didn't see anything suspicious, but of course, there were drugs in the lining of this suitcase that he didn't know about.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so that is...
[SPEAKER_04]: how he was tricked and caught and, you know, fortunately, he didn't have a longer sentence, but a team wants to still a long time and for children whose parents are in prison abroad, it's just a nightmare.
[SPEAKER_05]: 18 months is a long time to be anywhere that's not home and to think of your parent in prison in their 70s and a foreign country is like,
[SPEAKER_05]: terrorizing and, you know, this idea like Donna looked through the suitcase, Ralph looked through the suitcase.
[SPEAKER_05]: Even that is like I think so wise of both of them to have done that because if I was so trusting of someone, felt like I was so connected to someone, to meet them in another foreign country, I don't know that I would have even thought to do that.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so,
[SPEAKER_05]: the fact that like you still have people being cautious and still this is happening just shows you how season these con artists are I mean this is like organized crime total and it's so sad I mean 18 months of someone's life that's a long time yeah you know the red flags look out for I guess now in these cases are like don't ever bring a suitcase across international lines or any object that's not yours
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, this idea that someone wants to invest in your business is like, that could be perfectly plausible.
[SPEAKER_05]: However, if they were acquiring you to fly across the world to open bank accounts, if they're not showing up where they said they would be and wanting you to go to another country.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's like,
[SPEAKER_05]: If someone is that serious, you can always take a beat if they disappear, then that's for the best.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like that classic scam, the way scammers make you feel that you're going to miss out unless you act to now.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, the sense of
[SPEAKER_05]: urgency all the time and these wild stories.
[SPEAKER_05]: Imagine even going to LAX like saying you would be at LAX and then just not going and leaving someone stranded there to figure something out.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like I wouldn't sleep, I'd be so stressed to do that to someone.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, this is why you're not a scammer.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, never.
[SPEAKER_04]: You want to have the personality for it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Think goodness.
[SPEAKER_04]: Seriously.
[SPEAKER_04]: You looked up some 2023 stats about elder fraud, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and it's pretty staggering.
[SPEAKER_05]: So this is all according to a report released by the FBI in 2023, scams targeting people aged 60 and older, the average victim of elder fraud lost over $30,000.
[SPEAKER_05]: which is so much money and oftentimes that's when people are done working or close to being done working and they're relying on that savings and so the impact on their life can be pretty astronomical and in total in 2023 alone victims of elder fraud and this is in the U.S. lost a total of
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's wild.
[SPEAKER_05]: And there are so many different types of elder fraud, but the main one is tech support scams like that could be a pop up on your computer saying you need to fill this out right now or someone calling and saying, you know, this is so and so from.
[SPEAKER_05]: your bank or whatever, they're finding you digitally.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: And that is a tricky thing I think especially if you're elderly, but even now I know people in my own age group that have gotten these phone calls.
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: I know people are falling for them because they're very believable.
[SPEAKER_04]: Totally believable.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, so there's investment scams is the costliest to victims typically, but good advice for everyone is that if you know someone who think might be susceptible to these kinds of scams, you can just encourage them to never give up any personal information.
[SPEAKER_05]: If someone says they're calling from your bank, hang up and call your bank.
[SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_05]: And not at the number they call you on.
[SPEAKER_04]: If someone says, I just need to you to confirm some information, there's no reason why that
[SPEAKER_04]: you would never have to give out any personal information to someone who's calling you who supposedly already has your information.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's just never needed.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, don't send money to anybody you don't know and if you haven't met them in person and they're telling you, you know, a chaotic story and telling you that they need this money right now, it's still okay to take a beat.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, maybe call someone else and get their opinion on it.
[SPEAKER_05]: I've heard stories of bank dollars refusing to cash checks in certain instances where they think someone's being scammed and I don't know exactly what their authority is or how often that's happening.
[SPEAKER_05]: I doubt there's like stats on it, but I mean, that has to be a hard job for them if they can see it happening in real time too.
[SPEAKER_05]: I actually tried to pay someone on Facebook Marketplace over Zell a couple weeks ago and it just wouldn't let me.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was like, no, they're really trying to crack down on scams.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: But I was there trying to buy a table.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm here.
[SPEAKER_05]: Thank you, this is real.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I feel like a good rule of thumb if you get a scam call is just, like you said, just say, I got to call you right back.
[SPEAKER_04]: Get their name, their employer and their number.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And if they get weird about that, it's a red flag, red flag.
[SPEAKER_05]: Or I would just hang up and like they'll call back if it's important and even then you can just Google the number totally.
[SPEAKER_05]: Well, that's our episode for today.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for listening.
[SPEAKER_05]: We'll see you next week.
[SPEAKER_05]: If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it.
[SPEAKER_05]: Our email is the knife at exactly rightmedia.com or you can follow us on Instagram at theknifepodcast or a blue sky at theknifepodcast.
[SPEAKER_04]: This has been an exactly right production.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith, and me, Pasha Eden.
[SPEAKER_05]: Our producers are Tom Brifogl and Alexis Amarosi.
[SPEAKER_04]: This episode was mixed by Tom Brifogl.
[SPEAKER_04]: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
[SPEAKER_04]: Our theme music is by birds in the airport.
[SPEAKER_04]: Our work by Vanessa Leilach Executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Hannah and Pasha, and for more crazy stories like the one you just heard, search the knife wherever you get your podcasts.