[SPEAKER_03]: welcome to the lower hounds where you're guides to the dance of dragons.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm your host David.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I'm Joe and I'm still looking for rocks that are suitable for snakes to kick.
[SPEAKER_03]: Seasnakes.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is our feedback show for House of the Dragon Season 3 episode 3 Reneera Triumphant.
[SPEAKER_03]: John, I think we're just gonna kind of slip right into it and you know, bypass a bunch of the normal intro stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that sounds good.
[SPEAKER_03]: But just a quick reminder to folks.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, check that on our discord.
[SPEAKER_03]: We got an amazing community.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's well moderated, a lot of creative and fun people to hang out with.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, like, between Nate and Marilyn, they were like taking everything taken us to school on there with like deep, you know, human history and stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was amazing.
[SPEAKER_03]: And maybe we write papers.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right, exactly.
[SPEAKER_03]: So check us out there.
[SPEAKER_03]: Send your feedback comments, questions, corrections for actors' names.
[SPEAKER_03]: Two.
[SPEAKER_03]: H-O-T-D at thewarhounds.com.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we have an amazing affiliate community and you can find all of those podcasts, those links to our discord and to our email.
[SPEAKER_03]: Everything's in the show notes.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a link tree link that will give point you in all the right directions.
[SPEAKER_03]: And lastly, we're an independent podcast.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the best way for us to continue doing what we do, if you enjoy it, is to support us with subscriptions.
[SPEAKER_03]: Add dollars only go so far, they're a little bit fickle.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we've got a Patreon, we've got a supercast, the links are in the show notes, but everybody who is on the microphone with us, on a regular basis, you know, gets the partake in that, we have a revenue sharing process.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, it's going out to everybody, and it helps keep our costs minimal
[SPEAKER_03]: right in our creative tank.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we'd still do this regardless because we're in it for the creativity, not the money, but we need the money to, you know, people to create somebody.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to make the car go.
[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, if it works for you, please subscribe.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if it does work for you, cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe leave us a rating or review on your platform of choice.
[SPEAKER_03]: We'll take it all.
[SPEAKER_05]: We'll take it all.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_03]: Or, you know, that the, and the ad, you know, ad supported revenues is also really important, a real important cornerstone.
[SPEAKER_03]: So anyway, the last thing I want to say and this relates to the affiliate podcast, Jean.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, you need to mark if you're listening mark from never mind the music you need to have John on your show on a little bit more regular of a basis because I listened to that conversation that you and that he had about the Commodore that was fun.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was awesome, man, and I forget like you're one of like you and I person we have of our families or friends we go back a minute.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I just forget how much of an audio file you are and how much you have about music because we're nerdin' out about Marvel and Game of Thrones, whatever.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that good stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: But you're like a music guy.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_05]: There's a lot of other good stuff out there.
[SPEAKER_05]: So yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it was just like, oh, it was so cool to hear you and Mark just like nerd out on this bit of American history and musical history and something that affects both of you personally in terms of what's shaped your music and shaped your life.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so to hear your insights on the documentary and that perspective of that musical history, like that's a really great episode and I really, really Mark have John on at least once a season if not more.
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay, I'm flexing my muscle a little bit as a. Yeah, that was a great combo because the other great doc and it's a great band or it's winning fire and so.
[SPEAKER_05]: Did I say comedy?
[SPEAKER_05]: I did it again.
[SPEAKER_05]: I wasn't going to let that ride until I started with us.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I literally ride.
[SPEAKER_03]: See, you're a pro, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, you know how to how to bring me back on.
[SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, the thing is my brain is mush today.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've been coming down with us like a summertime cold So I've been hot and cold all day and my voice you can hear in my voice.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a little scratchy I picked up something when I was visiting the wing had been out in E.T.
[SPEAKER_03]: I got some They got some powerful viruses over there.
[SPEAKER_03]: So anyway, like nobody's ever seen before.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm I'm sick beyond I'm kidding Being silly high-per-box.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's get into our feedback.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's good.
[SPEAKER_03]: I never this banter
[SPEAKER_03]: So, okay, so now I do have to say one other thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: We, you know, back when the Laura starts a John and I would, you know, we do feedback and we do prep all the stuff and then Nancy came along and she's like, well, let me take care of that for y'all.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, okay, cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is weird.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I don't have any of our community members do it and so she's organized.
[SPEAKER_03]: So now we're like used to it.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's on vacation, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: She's enjoying some time with her family and friends and stuff, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And absolutely.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I'm like, oh, man, I have no idea.
[SPEAKER_03]: I had no, I forgot how much work it is to collect all the feedback to shape it into a document so needy.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm so glad you're having fun.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I will be so glad when you get back from vacation.
[SPEAKER_05]: Thank you, Nancy.
[SPEAKER_05]: She likes you, too.
[SPEAKER_03]: She likes you, too.
[SPEAKER_03]: Structures it, like the outlines are immaculate.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's so good with this stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: So anyway, I've done my best given my conditions.
[SPEAKER_03]: We've got a little bit of left over feedback from episode two.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think you should kick us off with Josh Luz comments here.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, this is right up on your Instagram.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is right in your topic area.
[SPEAKER_05]: Indeed, I've enjoyed Steve Tucson portrayal of Coral as so much, I buy that he's hurt to lose high tide in all of his treasures, but that forging a relationship with his sons more than makes up for it.
[SPEAKER_05]: I like the change from the book.
[SPEAKER_05]: The reason he didn't want to legitimize his sons was fear-raining his wrath.
[SPEAKER_05]: The show makes it much more a failing of Coralism self.
[SPEAKER_05]: the original choice to ignore them now that he works to overcome is an improvement.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I mean, I agree it's much better that the failing is his and not his, but yeah, I can't get over the failing.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's just the bottom line.
[SPEAKER_05]: my guys are terrible with that.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm just sorry.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, there's no way, no other way to say it.
[SPEAKER_05]: And he's still being a terrible dad right now in this moment because even after as we see in episode three, it's still about him.
[SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: Never about them.
[SPEAKER_05]: So it's always about him.
[SPEAKER_03]: And his legacy.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not about their families legacy, it's about his legacy.
[SPEAKER_03]: What is it?
[SPEAKER_03]: What are they say?
[SPEAKER_03]: Pride?
[SPEAKER_03]: Come with before the fall.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's a really prideful guy.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, you know, you can't do the things that he's done to his children and just, you don't like, I'm going to give you my name and everything else is honky dory.
[SPEAKER_05]: No.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: No.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's something else I like what the show is doing is the
[SPEAKER_03]: We can see that he's an excellent battlefield commander.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's widely like Odysseus, you know, and he's able to survive all of these trials and tribulations.
[SPEAKER_03]: He has a, you know, he has this charismatic presence and so he can be a great sort of leader and ally in the politics of the court.
[SPEAKER_03]: He can be a loving husband, but also a flawed husband.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then we start to see these facets of the jewel that, you know, this character is, he's a whole, they're writing us a whole person.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're not writing us a two-dimensional character.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're giving us a man who we can admire in a lot of different ways and also criticize in a lot of different ways.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's a, I appreciate that from a sense of story is, is that I can have mixed feelings about Coralis.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, and any of you know, a lot of the characters here.
[SPEAKER_05]: Mostly the characters.
[SPEAKER_05]: Who doesn't escape that screw in me?
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, nobody, nobody.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I just said, I also chimed in.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is a little bit more of a twist on this same stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: But again, dealing with Coralis and I tied Riftmark.
[SPEAKER_03]: Bala has zero grief for Jayce before she has to go and serve as comfort and scene partner to Allen.
[SPEAKER_03]: Their dialogue was at once that of old two pals and two strangers WTF.
[SPEAKER_03]: So there was some conversation about this.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think in the last episode and on the squad a little bit about like, you know, Bala didn't seem to be all that deeply affected by Jayce's death.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and I think Alicia and I spoke about that.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, she's not in love with Jayce.
[SPEAKER_05]: Never was, you know, never pretended to be, I don't think.
[SPEAKER_05]: So I don't think that yes, his death was moving inside as we see when she's bringing him.
[SPEAKER_05]: you know, his body home.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: You can see it on her face.
[SPEAKER_05]: You can see it in her look when she's passing, um, rain hour and hallway in this last episode.
[SPEAKER_05]: You can see all of those feelings, all of those emotions.
[SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, she wasn't in love with guy.
[SPEAKER_05]: She wasn't.
[SPEAKER_05]: So I think it's very easy, um, to turn that.
[SPEAKER_05]: into something else, so that feeling of wanting to be with someone, wanting to be there for someone, she was there for Jayce, but not in the way that we would think that two young people in love would be.
[SPEAKER_03]: They didn't fall in love.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're in a range marriage.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: and they can have all kinds of fun feelings for each other, but it's not like that was her.
[SPEAKER_03]: That wasn't the person that she chose because she wanted to.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: So the piece of it, and also sometimes, you know, you see somebody in his womb, no matter how it gets, because it's still egg, you know, he had me wrong, but it's just like, okay,
[SPEAKER_05]: Wow, you know, and I think in that scene at that moment that's what the writers, the story, was trying to get us to see like that's something between these two people that didn't exist between her and Chase.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I said, I continue to call this a few seconds of devastation and episode two at seeing high-type drift marks, smoking ruins, promised more grieving than we got this episode, and again, she's writing this about episode two.
[SPEAKER_03]: His line about hoping he never sees another war is an epic one from the books, but delivered
[SPEAKER_03]: especially when you realize he has lost everything, but the three people with him on the beach.
[SPEAKER_03]: At least seeing them together as a family, a black family should have felt more stirring bittersweet than it did.
[SPEAKER_03]: I get where Alan's pride at getting the Volarian name is coming from, but I definitely yelled even, oh, no, even, oh, no, you can't eat a last name, just a little too pat.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I too felt a little bit flat and as we talked before, I'm not a book reader, so I don't have anything to compare to, but just that scene on the beach, it did feel a little too pat for me and a little bit too flat.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like dude lost his fleet, he almost drowned, they found him.
[SPEAKER_03]: And he's just sitting there like, you know, oh, hey, here we are at the beach with my two bastards on, dude to do, it just didn't hit for me the way that I was, I was really helping it would.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that's your hit for me.
[SPEAKER_05]: I did it.
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, God, yes.
[SPEAKER_05]: Not only because, you know, the black family representing on the beach, but I also thought
[SPEAKER_05]: together.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like we've seen, you know, Allen, you know, has come to come into grips with who his father is, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: And we know that Adam has already come to terms with who his father is.
[SPEAKER_05]: So in that moment to see the three of them together,
[SPEAKER_05]: and all understanding where they're at in their relationships and where they're at in the world as a family.
[SPEAKER_05]: I thought it was really well done and I thought Baila's inclusion in that was also pointed because she's lost just as much.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: And she's clinging, like, call this as what our grandfather
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so she's clinging just as much to latch on to find to hold on to grasp on to her family just as much as Adam and Alan are.
[SPEAKER_05]: So I think this the scene worked, it worked for me on many different levels.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I get all that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that's, I think it's really interesting and there's a bunch of dimensions and there's there's so many dimensions to the show that it's interesting, especially to have the discord and the email feedback to get these different sort of nuance takes that everybody has absolutely on these different scenes and we're definitely going to get into that when we talk about reneera later on in the episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: Last little episode two comment from Baron.
[SPEAKER_03]: Baron says about the new character, Largent, who is the captain in the gold cloaks.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: His name can also be translated to silver, as well as money.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if it's on purpose, that the leader of the gold cloaks is called silver.
[SPEAKER_05]: Quinted in question mark.
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's a good question.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is it larger?
[SPEAKER_03]: Is it what language is it?
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess it may be French.
[SPEAKER_05]: La John is French.
[SPEAKER_05]: Definitely.
[SPEAKER_05]: La John is French.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, let's do this.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's take a quick commercial break.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then we come back, we will get into the episode three feedback.
[SPEAKER_03]: We've got a bunch of voicemails, we've got a couple of emails, we've got some discord comments, and then, at the end, we'll do like another, we'll make sure we'll do another commercial break, and then we'll do the bookbitch and Alicia's got a voicemail for us for that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then we can talk about a couple of things because I was like,
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, because as I said, I mean, allowing myself to be spoiled, so I've got a couple of, like, that's an interesting thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we'll do all that right after this break.
[SPEAKER_03]: Alright, we're back, and we're gonna start off with Aement vs. Demon.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is actually a comment from Dopamine from Episode 2, but John, do you wanna read this real quick?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_05]: The contrast between those two entries to Heron Hall was excellent for showing us the dynamic between these two men and how different they are.
[SPEAKER_05]: Even as they are so very alike, visually seeing the scale and power of Vega against Heron Hall was epic.
[SPEAKER_05]: it really was epic.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that that was, that's, you know, you want to see some dragon fire down best on fucking dragon fire.
[SPEAKER_05]: That, that was dope.
[SPEAKER_05]: That was dope.
[SPEAKER_05]: But I will say that the one thing with those scenes, I, I didn't, I never thought watching Amon go through, you know, the soldiers in her and all.
[SPEAKER_05]: as being like Damon.
[SPEAKER_05]: Really.
[SPEAKER_05]: I felt that he was trying to be like Damon.
[SPEAKER_05]: And there's a difference there.
[SPEAKER_05]: I got you.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: So when I viewed it, I'm like, he's trying so hard.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a knowledge of that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know, but which is what's great about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: You do, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: We do, we all do.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right, right.
[SPEAKER_05]: But I'm sure he's seen him fight.
[SPEAKER_05]: Sure, before, right.
[SPEAKER_05]: But the thing is, it's just like, I'm watching it.
[SPEAKER_05]: I never picture them like side by side.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like he's trying to.
[SPEAKER_05]: they're so alike and the way they move, the way they fight, I never thought that.
[SPEAKER_05]: The only thing I thought was that he is trying so hard.
[SPEAKER_05]: So hard.
[SPEAKER_03]: Great.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's the beauty of visual storytelling is that we can put those two scenes together.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we can draw the instant parallels.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then we can draw the reader response, like, oh, exactly.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm seeing and picking up from this.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's, I like what you're saying,
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, yes, yes, yeah, Damon is like, hey, man, you know, I've been the knee or die, right, you know, like, I don't care.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do care.
[SPEAKER_03]: I actually would like you to die.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'd like to do that if you could do that every better.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but, you know, I got to play by some rules.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we're aiming.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and then when he kills the castling strong.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and when you kill it, it's really dude, like really, you need, did you need to do that?
[SPEAKER_03]: And this goes into the whole thing of like killing all the rat catchers, or killing iron rod, or, you know, auto-high-tower.
[SPEAKER_03]: Just some merely executing, or firing all your professional staff from your government, or, you know, things like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: You deprive yourself of the best possible knowledge or information, experience, all of these kinds of things.
[SPEAKER_03]: He was ready to work with you and then you just straight up stabbed him in the gut, under-underhandedly.
[SPEAKER_03]: That level of arrogance is just stupid.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's where auto-high towers, just like you got these are not serious people.
[SPEAKER_03]: As the father and succession would say, I love you, but you're not serious people.
[SPEAKER_03]: Did you ever see the succession?
[SPEAKER_03]: No.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, never watched it.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a good show.
[SPEAKER_05]: I know.
[SPEAKER_05]: There are things that...
[SPEAKER_05]: There are things too.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I jumped in for just the final season.
[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't watch anything else.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, really?
[SPEAKER_05]: I thought you were... No.
[SPEAKER_05]: No.
[SPEAKER_05]: I didn't know that.
[SPEAKER_03]: John went back and watched everything.
[SPEAKER_03]: Just before I think to vinyl season or I can't remember okay, and I only I just parachute it in and just watch that final season I was like I you know these are these are nasty people and like whatever
[SPEAKER_03]: Whatever happened in season, whatever episode, whatever doesn't really matter, because it's playing out here.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's fine.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I could get what I wanted from it.
[SPEAKER_03]: But anyway, what's his name?
[SPEAKER_03]: McDonald's.
[SPEAKER_03]: The voice and McDonald's these days.
[SPEAKER_03]: What's his name?
[SPEAKER_03]: The actor, a succession of actresses.
[SPEAKER_03]: A million voices are screaming out on the internet right now, telling me it's Brian Cox.
[SPEAKER_03]: Brian Cox is Logan Roy tells his kids in one scene in the final series.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's like, I love you, but you just are not serious people.
[SPEAKER_03]: And he just has no faith in his children.
[SPEAKER_03]: That his children can actually live up to his legacy.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: So do I have to say him and fall squarely to that basket?
[SPEAKER_03]: So I said, I had a very funny comment today, listening to the pod, this confrontation between Amin and Damin that we all think will happen, which should be called, should be called tarble, Damin bowl, or maybe something else that doesn't allude to the cooking bowl.
[SPEAKER_03]: Penteen bowl as in the hair shampoo because there are these white long hair does.
[SPEAKER_05]: So I don't know that I'm kind of out of these.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm kind of leaning towards Penteen.
[SPEAKER_03]: I kind of liked that kind of like.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: I said, I, it's a Penteen bowl, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, start using it on the on the discord and everybody fall in the line on that one.
[SPEAKER_03]: Penteen bowl.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we don't know if we're going to get painty and bowl this season or next season.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I'm hedging bets them saying this is this season.
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just have no way to tell because they're they're going to start pulling some stuff later this season that are going to be like it's going to blow my noodle.
[SPEAKER_03]: Uh, yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's going to be as going to blow everyone's.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's talk a little bit about to serion, test aka test the dragon.
[SPEAKER_03]: A lot of conversation about, you know, the giant keepers and whether Damon should have, could have, would have done something, do you want to read the email from Jacob here real quick?
[SPEAKER_05]: Sure, appreciate the conversation as always.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think David is probably right, and it's a combination.
[SPEAKER_05]: That is a combination of story mechanics and you demon being arrogant and sort of dumb when it comes to the complexities of politics.
[SPEAKER_05]: That said, there is some danger in having a stranger and they run, flying on his dragon with the rest of them.
[SPEAKER_05]: Dragons can be unpredictable, see, sheepy.
[SPEAKER_05]: And they run is technically a green after all, maybe just too much risk.
[SPEAKER_03]: Ha, Kipee, Kipee, Kipee's name has been invoked, John, are you going to, are you going to, Yeah, why don't I, no, I'm not because you don't, Kipee's not unpredictable.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_05]: Kipee's out here doing drag and shit.
[SPEAKER_05]: There's nothing unpredictable about that.
[SPEAKER_05]: You don't say, you want some burning?
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm a burn.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's what we would say.
[SPEAKER_05]: You want to fly?
[SPEAKER_05]: We're going to fly.
[SPEAKER_05]: and even if I had a meal, I've got you on that too, you know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_05]: So she be out here just being a dragon.
[SPEAKER_05]: But I think I still, I'm still saying that they should have had day-run.
[SPEAKER_05]: You're saying, get on the dragon and fly.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, there's a lot of debate.
[SPEAKER_03]: Everybody's back and forth on this one and there was a bunch of chatter on the discord too.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, can could you trust him?
[SPEAKER_03]: Could you not?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you have cover with the two other with three dragons on one, but still right, you know, it's still a gamble.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's still a risk.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you get any way you play it, it's a risk.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, because it is a risk.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because as we see, you know, the risk was, it wasn't really bayron, you know, the real bayron's police step up.
[SPEAKER_03]: And our, our man, high tower, you know, did not take the rose road.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: So.
[SPEAKER_03]: And again, it's just got to keep, to me, just keeps going, driving back to, um, as Jacob.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, uh, eloquently puts, thank you, Jacob, for the, I'll, I'll take a, I'll take a, David is right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I might get it, is that Damon is being arrogant and sort of dumb.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: His arrogance is blinding up.
[SPEAKER_03]: uh... i said i uh... times and again uh... with some clarification listening uh... they were listening to another pod and uh... says i guess we're supposed to understand that they didn't leave test behind but rather damon took some dragon keepers with him and they took custody of tests on the way back to king's landing though test made a run for it and joined orphaned
[SPEAKER_03]: in taking Tumble Town.
[SPEAKER_03]: Once one of those Dragon Keepers comes back with the message regarding Tumble Town, and I said I said I was extremely confused as to where this random Dragon Keeper was coming from, so this kind of explains it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think we need to play Alisha's voicemail.
[SPEAKER_03]: We should do that next.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do she say something about that and that?
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, it's all a swirl.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just all kinds of
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think a lot of folks were like, oh, yeah, there was a missing piece.
[SPEAKER_03]: And maybe they filmed it, maybe they didn't.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it got caught who knows, but yeah, they did, this is one of those little details where there's just a gap in the storytelling.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we have to do a little extra work.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it happens.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is a big, complex show.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we can understand it a little bit.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's play Alicia's voice mail.
[SPEAKER_03]: And she has some thoughts about the episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: So here's some.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: Great to listen to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been able to listen to about half of your episode breakdown so far.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can't wait to hear the rest and the rest of the season.
[SPEAKER_00]: Very much enjoying being a passenger listening to you guys from now on.
[SPEAKER_00]: And my thoughts about this episode are quite similar to, I suppose, the last one where I like most of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that there's a lot of exciting, interesting things going on.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like that this one followed Renewa the entire time.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just have really one quibble will come back to that in a moment, but just to piggyback on what Jean's been saying and David, I heard you also say that you
[SPEAKER_00]: just about this being a show that's mostly about the two queens, and I think that when there are the scenes of them together, for me that is indeed the show of this added strongest.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that that is the strongest adaptation choice that they made making their friendship a center of the story, making them have a friendship at all, of course, a rather fraught one, obviously.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this was obviously a great episode for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's great that they're under the same roof.
[SPEAKER_00]: roof again in this uneasy, I don't even know if we can call it a truce or even a reluctant alliance anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to
[SPEAKER_00]: to give Allison credit for being honest about Farron as you're calling him fake Darren.
[SPEAKER_00]: She could have been like, oh yes, that's my son, and then you know, just sort of protect her own Darren, but she's like, not on how this kid, sorry.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do wonder what's going to happen to poor fake Darren.
[SPEAKER_00]: As far as the whole dragon thing, I am of the camp that you do not put you do not put the person you're trying to take back with you on a getaway weapon.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just don't see that going well at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think a lot of people would have criticized equally if that happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would have definitely.
[SPEAKER_00]: just shown us what what happened with Tassarion it seems like they did bring the dragon back but could have just had that those dots connected a little better for for some of us at least.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll just get out of the way the one thing that I didn't like, and it's, it's in the same vein as the last two weeks, basically each week there's a scene where I'm just, they are trying to portray womanhood and I just, oh, I just keep feeling like they're missing the mark in the period scene for me this week was that as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know that there are other people who actually really quite liked it, so I hope that one or more of those people will speak up to explain that better.
[SPEAKER_00]: I definitely agree with those who say that it's great to have women's menstruation talked about on a huge popular television show like this I just wish they had done it better.
[SPEAKER_00]: I get to the point is that it's supposed to show that you know women have to deal with
[SPEAKER_00]: One extra thing kind of on top of all of this other stuff that Reneera's having to deal with I understand that I wish personally that that had been better portrayed I do think that it came across as just another way to make her look weakened Disgusting to people which I understand is sort of the point of what's going on with Reneera at this point in the story but I
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't like that they're using that in that way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's definitely going to come down to personal preference.
[SPEAKER_00]: And definitely my distaste for it is piggybacking off the back of the two scenes in the prior episodes that bothered me as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: The misused Elizabethan quote and the whole attempted rape thing that just need to be there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I mean, I've heard a lot of people say, like, oh, well, ties to this scene and the book where she cuts her legs, but what if it's actually, you know, the period or oh, it ties to this thing that happened in the past or that thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, well, if they want to do that, I wish they would just go ahead and do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: We shouldn't have to work so hard and do back flips to to find meaning in this.
[SPEAKER_00]: and I'm sure it's a me thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just have definitely seen these topics handled much better on other shows.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's just for me it continues to not be the show's strength.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I heard a one-mail reactor in particular just take the worst possible idea from it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's also just making me a little...
[SPEAKER_00]: But you know what I did love is the whole rats in the keep scenario.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought the sound mixing in this episode over all was great and the metaphor obviously of the rats over taking the keep.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, because this is what happens when you throw a temper tantrum and kill all of the rat catchers, because one of them killed your son, not all of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I guess we're leading toward them getting some cats, which is what we see by the time of game of thrones.
[SPEAKER_00]: But what Reneera chose to do with the rats for now is chef's kiss, I guess, literally.
[SPEAKER_00]: When they asked her like, oh, how would your father handle this whole situation with everyone wanting food and stuff?
[SPEAKER_00]: She's like, let's hold a banquet.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, oh my god, this sounds like such a Marie.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure not let them eat cake moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know she didn't literally say that, but I didn't realize there was going to turn them and turn into a let them eat rat moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that was
[SPEAKER_00]: fun if I can say that without sounding too sick and twisted or maybe it's appropriate that I do.
[SPEAKER_00]: I also totally agree with you guys at the funniest line in this episode was how would you like to be stylized a Targaryen your grace?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh absolutely not.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was funny but it also just shows why a moment later she was so reluctant to style Adam Valerian because she's like you know I can't tell this
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, dragon seed bastard that he can't use the Targaryen name, but then tell this other one that he can use his father's name because he's claimed him.
[SPEAKER_00]: I understand where it's coming from, but I don't think it's going to go well for her.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do wonder what's going to happen with glad that the show remember that Reneera has another son job free in the veil because I'll be honest, I actually forgot about him that there is a third strong voice still out there in this show.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm wondering if that will put even more of a wrench between her and Coralist since he's gone around yelling about the strong boys being bastards.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I also wondered why she,
[SPEAKER_00]: you know when she sent Damon to the veil, why she didn't ask him to bring her some back?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is this the lack of trust issue?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm definitely looking forward to Damon going to the veil though.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm looking forward to this Damon Reina reunion that must be coming next week.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm loving every scene with Helena.
[SPEAKER_00]: She continues to be one of my low key favorite characters.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just her extreme empathy, when she says to Reneer in this episode, didn't make you feel better about Chase, killing my grandpa, basically.
[SPEAKER_00]: That line delivery could have been delivered in so many ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: Most of them angry, but here it was like she really wanted to understand like, did it at least make you feel better, you know, make me feel better about killing my grandfather by telling me at least made you feel better.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's how I read it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am worried about Reneera.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know that she's looking very tired, especially at her coronation.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's got a lot of people demanding a lot of things from her at the same time, very relatable.
[SPEAKER_00]: But brainstorming hunting in the Kingswoods on the spot in a public was a little like,
[SPEAKER_00]: What are you doing?
[SPEAKER_00]: This is not how governance is conducted with authority.
[SPEAKER_00]: Go talk about it first and also wonder if her soft spot for Allison is going to get her into trouble, you know, Allison to ask to send her father's remains back to Old Town, which sounds fair, but now I'm wondering is Allison going to hide something in there as well?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's fun that they're bringing in some side characters that book readers will read.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wonder if they're going to do more with them or just kill them off screen like they have with some others.
[SPEAKER_00]: But this week we got Torren of Manderley, which is an interesting house because it's a house of survivors that was once upon a time like, I know, 800 years before this, ejected from the reach.
[SPEAKER_00]: They used to be a great house of the reach, but
[SPEAKER_00]: Basically, for political reasons, they were pushed out, they were taken by the North, where they found it white harbor.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they still remain more bonded to the South and the rest of the North.
[SPEAKER_00]: For example, worshiping the seven, instead of the old gods, keeping one foot in both worlds as a house.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's definitely ready to pivot, to whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: They need to do to keep their great house in play.
[SPEAKER_00]: Historically, they've been allies into the line of Targaryens that lead up to this point.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been choosing a lot of the right sides.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this, I do believe that this is an addition to say that Torin supported Aegon for any amount of time.
[SPEAKER_00]: But anyone correct me if I'm misremembering that from the book.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think certainly he's going to be an ally now.
[SPEAKER_00]: But Damon, Damon, Damon, Mr. 1% calling themselves gods.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's definitely not going to help Reneera stop making enemies all around her, and I reject the idea that you must do terrible things to rule effectively as this show continually posits.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know that this is a relentlessly pessimistic world, but I do challenge more people to tell more stories that show that this is not true.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know I'm repeating myself, but I think it's an important point.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, enjoying hanging out with you second-hand on the pod, can't wait to listen into the rest, but I have to tell you, I'm afraid I can no longer be Team Black, but don't worry, I'm not Team Green either.
[SPEAKER_00]: I now pledge my allegiance to the Queen of the Damned, for she has declared.
[SPEAKER_02]: We are inside!
[SPEAKER_00]: and that's my not so subtle way of inviting any house of the dragon fans who haven't yet to join John and I for all the fire blood acknowledging of the problematic nature of incest and disregulated vampire personalities and lack of coping skills that promised to bring on the apocalypse in the vampire list.
[SPEAKER_00]: or season three of interview with the vampire.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you'll find me over there but I will also be back later for a book,
[SPEAKER_03]: That was a hell of a quote to go out on.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know audio clip.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so we've got to book a spoiler stuff at the end that we'll play from Alicia.
[SPEAKER_03]: Jean got a big menu spread there of topics from Alicia.
[SPEAKER_03]: Anything that jumps out or caught your attention that you want to react to?
[SPEAKER_05]: I see both sides of the, I can see both sides of the scenes with Raynara.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's see there, because I've got some, we've got some more common to about that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh God, those.
[SPEAKER_03]: Fair, fair.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I just think, you know,
[SPEAKER_05]: I might have, I'm going to start watching the fan part of the start actually.
[SPEAKER_05]: Do it rather than later.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: I had said I was going to do it.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think you promised on a podcast.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think it's looking like it's going to be this weekend.
[SPEAKER_05]: We'll feed up some time.
[SPEAKER_05]: So I'm going to be tuned in.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to be seated.
[SPEAKER_03]: A little binge watch.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: see what's going down.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, right on.
[SPEAKER_03]: At least, thank you so much for those thoughts.
[SPEAKER_03]: There were, like, some points I wanted to react to in the moment that I'm like, I get my brain's cooked right now because of my, uh, my E.T.
[SPEAKER_03]: fever.
[SPEAKER_03]: Uh, that said, I've got, should we play Mark's voice mail, too?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I talked a little bit about, so about some music stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mentioned this, I think, on the main pod that this episode, not only in the sound design, but also the soundtrack really made the episode for me and elevated it to a
[SPEAKER_03]: And I really was like, oh my god, this reminds me of the movie Conclave.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I know we talked about it all the time, but the way that the stringed instruments were used in hastening the action, creating frenetic pacing, also echoing some sort of, you know,
[SPEAKER_03]: Psychological disturbances going on and obviously there's some bells and some other rushing, you know, blood sort of, you know, sort of like blood rushing in your ears kinds of sounds and the rats squeaking and things like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I got really excited because it was like, oh, cellos, and I think cellos are one of my favorite instruments overall.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love the rich tones and the vibrations.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's just a thing that for me, codes and a lot of directions.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I was like on the messaging market, like, Mark, I need you to tell us all about how cellos are used to create these kinds of tones and moods, things like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And Mark's like, David, that's not how it works.
[SPEAKER_03]: No doubt.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, but you're the expert music guy, you're going to tell me that my opinions are right and like, you know, this is deep and credible insights into how music works.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's like, yeah, no.
[SPEAKER_03]: So he wrote in an email.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think he abridged it or modified it a little bit based on because that you know the primary or main pod and then I think he rewatched the episode and so did I and we sort of traded a couple of notes about that.
[SPEAKER_03]: But here's Mark's email.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hey, John.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hey, David.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's Mark from NTM writing in because David wanted to hear my thoughts on the cello.
[SPEAKER_04]: The cello is awesome.
[SPEAKER_04]: Those are my thoughts.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_04]: End of the video.
[SPEAKER_04]: Boys, Matt.
[SPEAKER_04]: Been awesome listening to your coverage, guys.
[SPEAKER_04]: Or rather, John and Alicia's coverage.
[SPEAKER_04]: I assume David's coverage will be awesome, but honestly, there's no proof of that yet.
[SPEAKER_04]: So everybody was in closely to this very episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, David wrote to me on the Discord, highlighting how this episode had a lot of really awesome moments of tension that involved the use of the cello and was there something iconic about the cello and essential about the cello that makes that the case.
[SPEAKER_04]: This episode does have some scenes with the rats crawling around and some of the walk-and-talk scenes where people are scanning and things like that that have lots of cool, especially staccato, cello, like a lot of kind of chugging and rhythmically sort of intense uses of the instrument that do as David mentioned in the discord and also probably has mentioned on this podcast
[SPEAKER_04]: Is that universal for the cello?
[SPEAKER_04]: Is the cello the go-to for that?
[SPEAKER_04]: That would be the question.
[SPEAKER_04]: And if so, why?
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, David, I agree with you that the cello has that character, and definitely does have that character and other music as well.
[SPEAKER_04]: However, what about the main theme, to game of thrones, you bump, bump, bump, bump, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: That's a cello solo, too.
[SPEAKER_04]: Does that have this menacing character?
[SPEAKER_04]: No, to me, that's kind of more heroic or something like that.
[SPEAKER_04]: What about the reigns of cast-demir theme?
[SPEAKER_04]: I think when we first hear it, the main melody is played by the cello, I'm pretty sure.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that is not menacing and creepy intention building.
[SPEAKER_04]: That is heavy and weighty and emotional.
[SPEAKER_04]: You can have love themes sometimes played by the cello.
[SPEAKER_04]: I can't think of any in-game at thrones, but if you think of like, I think the crouching tiger hidden dragon, yo-yo-ma, cello stuff, some of those beautiful sort of majestic
[SPEAKER_04]: scenes involve that instrument.
[SPEAKER_04]: And basically, this instrument can do a lot of things.
[SPEAKER_04]: I would say a lot of instruments can do a lot of things.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, to answer your question about why the cello can sometimes be medicine, while there's a few reasons, there's a scratchiness to strings, especially when played solo, but not only when played solo, it can happen even when you're playing in a group.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's the sound of the bow itself that creates kind of a white noise.
[SPEAKER_04]: in the articulation that isn't true with a lot of instruments.
[SPEAKER_04]: And there's even ways you can bring that out.
[SPEAKER_04]: If you play what's called school pump to cello, which is with the bow closer to the bridge, which is to say on the cello, closer to the floor, it can bring out that white noise.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that has a kind of airy mysterious even menacing kind of quality to it.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so if you listen to scores by, let's say Michael Jakino, you're going to hear a lot of strings, not just the cello,
[SPEAKER_04]: Doing all sorts of weird stuff and scratchy kind of creepy effects especially in his TV scores and that's not really the cello That's just strings in general, but I don't think we would say the violin is a menacing instrument, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: We obviously have lots of beautiful love themes or the really creepy sorrowful
[SPEAKER_04]: The cello can also play really fast, which can be helpful to create these kind of emotional effects.
[SPEAKER_04]: It can also play with a very wide dynamic range.
[SPEAKER_04]: You can play it barely audible.
[SPEAKER_04]: You can play it relatively loud, and that could lend itself really well to tension.
[SPEAKER_04]: but these instruments are really flexible.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's part of why they are so popular.
[SPEAKER_04]: I would not necessarily say it is ubiquitous for the cello to be creepy.
[SPEAKER_04]: My dad jokes way too often about how any time he hears a cello, it makes him cry.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't think that's because it's menacing and embodies the rats.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think it's more because to him, it evokes a lot of emotional response.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so,
[SPEAKER_04]: I guess that brings us to the real answer to your question, which is your personal reference points.
[SPEAKER_04]: You have seen enough films that use the cello in kind of a creepy menacing tense way.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so you associate it with that.
[SPEAKER_04]: You wouldn't necessarily associate it with that just based on the sounds itself.
[SPEAKER_04]: What do you associate the piano with?
[SPEAKER_04]: Seriously, ask yourself.
[SPEAKER_04]: maybe you think beauty or fullness or romance?
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, what about the one battle after another score?
[SPEAKER_04]: Where it's this sort of tick-tock weird distressing, something bad is about to happen, use of the piano.
[SPEAKER_04]: It is not necessarily aligned with the stereotypes of the instrument, because I think really, again, it's about the reference point.
[SPEAKER_04]: So anyways, not trying to rain on your parade here, but the cello can do those things.
[SPEAKER_04]: It may just be your reference points, really.
[SPEAKER_04]: And look, I get those reference points are powerful, and instruments do have certain characteristics that lend themselves to certain emotions.
[SPEAKER_04]: Obos are very often love themes.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's because the instrument can play really long lines without having to interrupt for a breath.
[SPEAKER_04]: And also, it has a very kind of pointy, almost nasal quality that lets it cut through the orchestra.
[SPEAKER_04]: The bass range, cousin of the oboe, the bassoon, has some of those same characteristics, but we find it often having very different musical role playing parts that I've heard described as goblin-esque.
[SPEAKER_04]: Think like, ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba.
[SPEAKER_04]: similar constructed instrument with very different musical roles.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I'm not saying that instruments don't lend themselves to certain types of emotions, but I think you happen to have stumbled on an instrument that actually has one of the more wide ranges in terms of emotion.
[SPEAKER_04]: But then again, I don't know that I've heard a lot of funny or boisterous themes on the cello either.
[SPEAKER_04]: When I first listened to his answer I was like, man, I don't like this the answer because he's not validating my point.
[SPEAKER_03]: But then I let's do it more and I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a lot there that for me that I'm applying personal meaning to what the cello means.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then I hear it use so effectively.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, look, see there's my point.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's true.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not that that's not true.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just that the cello can be used in a lot or piano can be used in a lot of different writing ways and I just Find that in this particular episode
[SPEAKER_03]: the way that they use the music was so expert at telling us the story of what's going on inside the Red Keep and what's going inside of Reneira's world as she's trying to, you know, hey, I'm suddenly in control, sort of, maybe, part of, kind of.
[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, seemingly, I'm here, I'm inside the Red Keep and so yeah, it was really good.
[SPEAKER_03]: Any thoughts on what Mark had to say there?
[SPEAKER_05]: No, just the point of, what does it mean to you, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think that's very, very valid because you can hear, to people can hear something, a song, a melody, or an instrument play, a tone, and feel very different emotions from those same chords.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_05]: What does it mean to you?
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think I never even really thought about it that in that way.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: Actually.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, let's take another quick commercial break.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then we come back.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's spend a little time with Reneera and what's going on with Reneera's world.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for watching.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we're back.
[SPEAKER_03]: So Mark, thank you again for taking the time to send in that thoughtful reply.
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, I'm really glad that we have such a fun community to like spread out in all these different directions and pull in all this different feedback.
[SPEAKER_03]: We've got some great stuff from Nate and Marilyn coming up about real world history in a minute.
[SPEAKER_03]: And
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, it's just a really great thing, and I'll just tease really quick that never mind the music is coming up on the end of their season two.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we're going to start season three.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we've got a special episode in the works to mark that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because they've been doing this for a minute now.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you have not been listening to them, you should definitely go check them out.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's talk a little bit about what's going on with Raniera.
[SPEAKER_05]: Rainierra was an absolute naïve fool by dismissing her small council.
[SPEAKER_05]: The story of episode three is that of how much a ruler needs a close supporting group of advisors.
[SPEAKER_05]: This would have made all the difference, even with the weakness of her council at Dragonstone.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think she had to get rid of those, those people.
[SPEAKER_05]: The point of having a support system as a support of the guys on dragons, the relative quality of those advisors, that were perfectly cool with locking her in her room, like a petulant child, or someone who needed to be taken care of.
[SPEAKER_05]: She had to let those people go.
[SPEAKER_03]: You can.
[SPEAKER_03]: She needs to work diligently right now to or maybe pull one of two of them or something like that, but like she needs to build a support system.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's that her her in my opinion her primary job right now is to build her small council system.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, he who's loyal.
[SPEAKER_05]: right and I think he spoke about that a little bit when we covered the episode is who is loyal and she needs people who are loyal and the only person that she can truly feel that will have her back no matter what.
[SPEAKER_05]: right now is Damon.
[SPEAKER_05]: And maybe she didn't feel that way before.
[SPEAKER_04]: They knocked her in the room.
[SPEAKER_05]: But nothing really feels that way.
[SPEAKER_05]: Because there's no way the people who are loyal to you would have allowed that to have.
[SPEAKER_05]: So she had to let them go.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: They really did betray her.
[SPEAKER_05]: They did.
[SPEAKER_05]: And you can't have people around you like that with this situation, you're making decisions and you don't know if they're going to, you know, second guess your decisions or circle navigate your decisions and make their own decisions.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: Can't do that.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we got a message from Jampak Ion, finally listening to the pod much fun having you back David Lohound.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, Jampak.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's nice to hear from you.
[SPEAKER_03]: I always appreciate a little shout out.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was reading comments at the same time and Jean saying that the calcification of the system has been drummed into us this whole show written in caps.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they need to do because I kept wanting it to be this way, including in the first season which I'm rewatching, Reneer's dad, Bessaris's counsel, the lords, the people doing minstrel shows, and that's just for in the first four episodes.
[SPEAKER_03]: What's that quote from the wire?
[SPEAKER_03]: You want it to be that one way, but it's the other one.
[SPEAKER_03]: Man, I would love to do a wire podcast someday.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, please.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's out, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's out.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's available.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, no.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like maybe some spare time you and I could do that.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, maybe we can't, let's talk about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, all right, okay, there you go, folks.
[SPEAKER_03]: Jampack continues.
[SPEAKER_03]: I so much want a world of equality, of neutral decisions where people on the same side, even for short periods of time, help one another or can try to see things from each other's side.
[SPEAKER_03]: But humans just don't do that, even the ones who try like Reneera.
[SPEAKER_03]: Between the sound design, watching Emma Darcy put on a clinic, every showing every face of her identity, under so many circumstances.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was easily my favorite episodes.
[SPEAKER_03]: We saw her in public.
[SPEAKER_03]: intimate, alone, hosting a dinner, being meaner playing host, asking for things, and being asked for things.
[SPEAKER_03]: And with friends, with enemies, and everything in between, you really have a man.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, this sends right here, like, this is really bringing it home to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: What another level of what was going on in this episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: You really don't finish up as email, Iris message.
[SPEAKER_03]: You don't really get to see episodes like this for you, often outside of Andor or something.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's where this is a prestige show, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: I agree because we have this level of detail and complexity of design, of character, and of plotting.
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, there may be some failings and some things that people we bounce off of, but that just means that the show has traction, that means the show is meaningful to us in some way.
[SPEAKER_03]: We don't react to things that we don't care about.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right, right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so we, there are a lot of people care about a lot of what's going on here and I think that and they're trying stuff right and they're doing their best.
[SPEAKER_03]: They didn't set out to make a batch out, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: They set out to make an excellent show.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, I hope that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_05]: It makes sense and I don't disagree with what in jam pack had to say.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, clearly don't.
[SPEAKER_05]: and just an incredible episode where we get to see her in all of these, we get to see Rinaura in all of these facets, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: Alone, intimate, hosting, being asked of things, asking for things.
[SPEAKER_05]: This is um, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then it's quite a ride.
[SPEAKER_03]: So then bringing even a further
[SPEAKER_03]: element to Reneira's character in what she's dealing with and how Emma Darcy plays the character.
[SPEAKER_03]: We have this question about the menstrual cycle and Reneira having her period and there's been obviously some conversation about that and without surprise there have been some people on the
[SPEAKER_03]: people who kind of have itk responses to this.
[SPEAKER_03]: And of course, we can tell them to go kick some rocks for those kinds of responses.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because this is a, you know, they're trying to portray this complex character in a full and complex way.
[SPEAKER_03]: And dopamine was very, you know, this is an important scene for dopamine and so she sent in a voicemail.
[SPEAKER_03]: So let's listen to that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then she's got a follow-up discord comment.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey y'all, dopamine here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to comment on the period of it all in this episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: First, just a quick trigger warning on pregnancy loss.
[SPEAKER_01]: Please skip ahead, like five minutes or so, if that's not something that you want to hear about right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, there's a very important detail about this period specifically.
[SPEAKER_01]: So remember at the end of season one, Renera is pretty far along in a pregnancy and she has a horrific stow birth.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know that that feels like forever ago, but in the timeline of the events, it's only been a few months since that happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, female hormones get completely out of whack after miscarriage and pregnancy.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this could very likely be her first period since that happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: The body goes into what I would describe as like a hormonal shock going from pregnant to immediately
[SPEAKER_01]: not pregnant, which lasts for months, no matter the outcome of the pregnancy itself.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is likely why she'd be so surprised.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's very unpredictable when that first post-pregnancy period will happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would also be...
[SPEAKER_01]: a really physically intense experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is why she's so sweaty and she's so crampy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I cannot believe she is managing to walk around so much in this episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a visual depiction of the silent suffering of a female ruler and the shame around periods that I think a lot of women still experience today.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also love that this could be another interpretation for the cuts seen on her legs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Her first day sitting on the iron throne noted in the book by Scepton Eustys as a commentary that the throne rejected Reneera.
[SPEAKER_01]: Being accepted, I doubt that he even has any clue what menstrual blood looks like and see on the throne all day with a very heavy period, it's quite likely she would have blood through those garments.
[SPEAKER_01]: So in summary, this would be a major plot point for Reneer as day.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just want to say way to go feminism and having female writers and directors in this show, which in the Game of Thrones times was the rapiest world of them all.
[SPEAKER_01]: we got quite a different version of what's between a woman's legs in this episode and I imagine some people are going to be very uncomfortable and very whiny about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I say about fucking time with no apologies.
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back David.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello Jean.
[SPEAKER_01]: Love y'all and talk to you again soon.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I just realized that the Discord message that I pulled for, yeah, as like a follow up is basically the same thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we're, we're going to skip that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And, and I want to be mindful too.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't have a womb.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't have mental savings.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, right.
[SPEAKER_03]: To comment on an, an explain or try to, you know, I want to try to avoid doing that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'll say from my standpoint,
[SPEAKER_03]: being roomless and being a TV screen viewer.
[SPEAKER_03]: and having, you know, being somebody who, you know, I have a lot of important women in my life, my daughter, my wife, you know, my sister, mother, all these people.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, yeah, it's a part of our lives.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I remember when, I don't know if I should go into this equation thing, I remember being very on guard during a while our daughter was breastfeeding and like, oh, nobody better tell me to.
[SPEAKER_03]: Nobody ever did like, oh, you know, you guys are breastfeeding in public, but it's gross or whatever.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because these things are natural, like this is our species, this is humanity.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so for me, as a viewer and a wholeness person, like seeing this depicted as just another thing that she's dealing with, like, added dimension for me.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it added something that I felt expanded to character of Reneera for me.
[SPEAKER_03]: So in that way, it worked for me.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: I feel much the same.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think it did add to what she is dealing with in a way that, you know, obviously, her father could not, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: So, you know, and she's trying to live up to her father and.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: We talked about before in the, in the episode about the ghost of her father.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: And she's going, she's dealing with shit that her father had no idea.
[SPEAKER_05]: of, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: But the thing that stays with me from this part of the episode that I you don't find myself thinking about is the positioning of her footsteps being bloody to the throne and then her sitting on the throne literally, you know, with her own blood.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: And that's the thing that keeps me
[SPEAKER_05]: like engaged with this entire episode actually, just that, um, yeah, just, I, I really think that that set with me more than anything else in the episode, the fact that she, they show us her bloody footsteps that are not her, her own blood, but then when she's ruling, she's
[SPEAKER_05]: I blood is 100, like she's bleeding for this dog, almost.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_05]: So that stays, that stays with me.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we have to call back to season one when Viserys gets nicked by the throne.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that seems to start the cascade of his health, the crime.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, rapidly.
[SPEAKER_03]: And right, we see that and then that's the first finger to go,
[SPEAKER_03]: If we're, you know, those of us who are in the show, the way that we are on this podcast and in this community, like that, we're going to remember that and we're going to, that's going to be part of our conversation of anybody, anybody who goes near that throne, anybody who physically sits on that throne in the back of my mind, I'm responding like, don't let that thing cut you.
[SPEAKER_03]: because it did was Harrison, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: There's the blades poison, like in my mind, it's like, you know, the back of the gears are working that way.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm like, extremely nervous for Reneera to sit on the frickin' thing, no matter their condition.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then you add in what you're saying, right, with the real putting a female body into the machinery of power,
[SPEAKER_03]: and plugging into this system and then the trappings of power and the appearance of power and then what the chair physically does to you as well as the weight of the crown on your head.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sort of, you know, that that famous quote, heavy is the head.
[SPEAKER_05]: No, where's the crown?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So and I get it that there's a it's a complex topic and it's something that we don't see enough on a screen and so when it does come up on screen it's like, ah, like, you know, we're
[SPEAKER_03]: we're managing it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so yeah, recognizing that there's a diversity opinion about that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Anybody who's like, ooh, Ike, you know, could go against.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that whole thing of like, period shouldn't be on TV.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's to whatever, like, no.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's gonna be, if you're reacting to that on this podcast, then, you know, maybe this is your podcast.
[SPEAKER_03]: So.
[SPEAKER_03]: uh... but hopefully we did that some justice and and uh... i think it was i think dope a minis point is really important i think well taken so thank you dope minis for uh... recording and sending that in appreciate your point of view very much on that
[SPEAKER_03]: Anything else you want to wrap up on that?
[SPEAKER_05]: No, that's pretty much it, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, let's switch to the sunny topic of using human shields as part of the couple or diplomacy.
[SPEAKER_03]: I message neat on the discord and he wrote back some good stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: Nate is a military historian and served in the Armed Forces and is an expert with the history of Japan and helped us out on our show gun coverage and hopefully we'll be talking to him again when when show gun does come back around.
[SPEAKER_03]: I saw some news a couple of months ago or something
[SPEAKER_03]: starting filming or wrapping filming something like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: So anyway, looking forward to the when that show comes.
[SPEAKER_03]: But Nate says, then this is the thing of Ormond going into tumble town and embedding his forces into a civilian farm clay, you know, into a town, and then embedding his forces amongst citizenry.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so the question of human shields and what that does, I talked
[SPEAKER_03]: Nate brings up some additional points.
[SPEAKER_03]: So obviously, any formalized illegality of human shields is a very modern 20th century thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Though I'd also note that the 20th century also brought us the concept of total war, where the entire society was a legitimate target and thus the civilian populations of London, Berlin, dressed in Tokyo, Hiroshima, Shanghai, et cetera, weren't just shields, but they were the targets themselves.
[SPEAKER_03]: If anybody is into history, and especially military history, the Tom Hanks World War II series that's unsmoaling right now, like where I think we're, I mean, it's 20 episodes, and I think we're up to a episode 14 right now.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's excellent.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they talk about this in one of the episodes is like how this strategic bombing campaign and total war and civilian populations, it's really fascinating.
[SPEAKER_03]: So very well produced documentary series.
[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, back to Nate's message.
[SPEAKER_03]: I could go on a whole rant about the stupidity and counter-productiveness of indiscriminate bombing, but that's probably a topic for a different day, a fuck-do-at-for-good measure.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that must be one of the commanders from that time, or some, I don't know who that person is.
[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, in a pre-modern context, particularly in seizures, civilian casualties were not really anything anyone considered, so human shields,
[SPEAKER_03]: seems like a tactic a bit out of place.
[SPEAKER_03]: It only works because it's Reneera making the call.
[SPEAKER_03]: And of course, the quandary of one of her dragonwriters, strategic bombers, pilots knowing that his wife is down there amongst the townspeople of Tumbledon.
[SPEAKER_03]: Adding this, adding to this, the reason you wouldn't want to kill off your common folk as a pre-modern ruler was economic.
[SPEAKER_03]: your tax base, your agricultural production, your goods, all come from people.
[SPEAKER_03]: There are obvious exceptions where entire cities, regions, populations were destroyed, hello Mongols, but generally you avoided that because you wanted to rule them and extract wealth.
[SPEAKER_03]: And even the Mongols only resorted to wholesale slaughter as a terror tactic.
[SPEAKER_03]: to convince other groups to surrender.
[SPEAKER_03]: In other words, it doesn't really feel right on two levels.
[SPEAKER_03]: On the one hand, military elites of a pre-modern society wouldn't have had many emotional homes with the deaths of civilians, but on the other hand, they'd want to minimize the loss of labor resources.
[SPEAKER_03]: Of course, reading of villages, raising a field, et cetera, was always occurred and along with its civilian deaths and or enslavement, but the tactical emphasis there is on the denial or supply of labor or to capture a supply of labor for your own use, not really anything to do with the people.
[SPEAKER_03]: It may sound like a distinction without difference, but an English army on a Shavashay in France during the hundred years war would attack and destroy a town or village for the pillage, and the French garrison would defend it to keep supplies, not because they felt they need to protect the people.
[SPEAKER_03]: That really only comes later as early modern modern nation states form the form with the idea of all people being members and thus contributors to the nation.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you thought there's only any actions.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, war.
[SPEAKER_05]: That fuck is a good for.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, Sam.
[SPEAKER_05]: Working, Robbie.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, just, you know, it's um, as it, as it relates to the, to the show, you know, what did I say when we're talking about or mine, you could look at this guy and no, just no, he's not gone.
[SPEAKER_05]: He's not going to bend in me and be serious about it.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: So, he is totally doing and has done exactly what I expected for him to do.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: He's going to, this is going to be such a problem for Reinaura.
[SPEAKER_05]: We already see it, because you know who's, you know, wife is now, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: Very much, you know, in danger, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And she's really, so just and quickly on that side on that, like all three of these dragon seeds aren't happy right now.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're not happy.
[SPEAKER_05]: So, you're going to tell them to potentially go into battle and one of them is going to be like, I don't know if I want to do that.
[SPEAKER_05]: Because the person I love is down there, how am I going to make sure that she's okay?
[SPEAKER_03]: interesting, we just had messiah saying your power base is your people.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's go, you know, give some gifts in front of the high-sept of a bailer.
[SPEAKER_03]: You have Allison saying, girl, you got to learn how to be a bad ass and separate your personal feelings from what you need to do as a ruler, and in some cases what you do as a ruler is going to be horrific to you as a person.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then we have a real-world scenario, tumble down, and we've seen her make a whole bunch
[SPEAKER_03]: people are not happy with like hey can you just help me out here a little bit and you know validate this claim or give me a house on a nice pill or something and yet she's cutting all of these people off feeding them rats and not sort of dispensing of you know some sort of the
[SPEAKER_03]: What is it droids?
[SPEAKER_03]: Is that the thing something I got at something sick of my head?
[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, like, you know, the cast off of the crown.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, oh, yeah, of course you can have that.
[SPEAKER_03]: No problem.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's no sweat.
[SPEAKER_05]: And we know there's already drama in the town because we have the dragon rider.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's right, not the dragon rider.
[SPEAKER_05]: The dragon keeper who just reported to them.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, shit is not good over there.
[SPEAKER_05]: You don't say anything.
[SPEAKER_05]: And he's all at, you know, he's covered in ash.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: So they got a nook down there.
[SPEAKER_03]: They got a live nook down there.
[SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_03]: So take out another nook.
[SPEAKER_05]: What are you going to do?
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: This is exactly why Armand did what he did.
[SPEAKER_05]: What are you going to do?
[SPEAKER_05]: Because if you do the thing that I want you to do, then you're going to turn everyone against you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right, in whether I'm alive or dead, you've created a sort of a bunch of vibrations in the system that are eventually going to come and shake you up right, which is this old intent and if you don't do anything, then I'm in a tactical position and I can exactly and I have a strong point and I can cause a whole bunch of I can basically block.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we need goods and resources coming in from the south from, you know, all the wine and everything.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, this is the sublacade base right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, right exactly on land.
[SPEAKER_03]: I heard on the dykes and do rags podcast the guys were like, why is Aaron also important?
[SPEAKER_03]: And then they looked up on on a map and they're like, oh, okay, because it's like right in the middle of all the farming man.
[SPEAKER_03]: the food, the food.
[SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, yeah, so if you had tumble town in Heron Hall, right, then you have a, you can really choke off King's Landing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, as much as I hate it, it's a brilliant strategy, but again, it goes to Damon.
[SPEAKER_05]: Not the area, too.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I'm not thinking that through, we should as your car is everybody.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, Reini said we could have done it from you know from early on at that when her and me has busted out of the this app.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_05]: She'll have done it.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I've done it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, it makes for some makes for a good show.
[SPEAKER_03]: It makes for a good television show.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, so let's continue our class session here because we have, we have both Marilyn who is a professor emeritus and Nate who is an active school instructor and we had Mark as well as we got a lot of that.
[SPEAKER_03]: going down on this episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's talk a little about some more real-world history.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you want to read her first message here?
[SPEAKER_05]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_05]: I recently had pointed out to me in a different context that House of the Dragon is based on the English event known as the Anna Henry I of England had no surviving legitimate sons, but he did have a daughter, Matilda.
[SPEAKER_05]: She had become Roman
[SPEAKER_05]: When the Emperor died, and we told Matilda to come home and marry a lowly count, Jaffrey of Honjou, excuse me, Matilda has reported to have been quite chagrin by this downgrading of her status, but Henry had all of the nobility sweat to support his daughter as the next ruler of England.
[SPEAKER_03]: Come on, George, are our martinans?
[SPEAKER_03]: Hi, bro, you are like.
[SPEAKER_03]: You dig it in.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, great.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a great source material, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: The actual, the real world is your best possible source of material for these kinds of swords.
[SPEAKER_05]: So when Henry died, Matilda took her time getting back to England from on June, whilst her cousins defiled Stephen, race to England, and more importantly to Winchester, side of the royal treasury, to claim his kingship, and most of the Lords would sworn to Faddle Matilda not affirm Stephen as the new king of England.
[SPEAKER_05]: Chaos ensued for several years, Stephen ended on the throne, but only after a compromise had finally been struck, he would stay under their own and Matilda would give up all claim to Queenship, and her son Henry would become Henry II.
[SPEAKER_05]: Stevenson's warrant exactly shoved about this, but the oldest one conveniently died, and Harry the second ascension was pretty smooth.
[SPEAKER_05]: He also became one of the most significant English monarchs throughout the medieval period.
[SPEAKER_05]: It was often pointed to as the quintessential medieval monarch.
[SPEAKER_05]: This source suggested that elicent is standing in for Steven, but wow, I think that the
[SPEAKER_05]: I really do see Reinaura as having many aspects of Matilda.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just want to remind you, John, that it's all about...
[SPEAKER_02]: I love gold.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're going on the goal.
[SPEAKER_03]: And many times it's possible, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, maybe I should play the other one too, which is not necessarily Dramain to this conversation.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a little bit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Boss, that's... God, I love that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love that line delivery.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's so good.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, gosh.
[SPEAKER_05]: Alright, so thoughts on Maryland's... Yeah, just exactly what you said.
[SPEAKER_05]: Mr. Martin.
[SPEAKER_05]: You've quite the imagination, but apparently you've quite the history buff as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, are the things is that you could come up with an idea and then go, okay, let me go.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let me work backwards and find out where that is already occurred in the earth history and prime, prime earth history.
[SPEAKER_03]: Uh, yeah, I don't, uh, I don't think I've much more to on that.
[SPEAKER_03]: We have a two more big messages from Marilyn.
[SPEAKER_03]: The next one, regarding the exchange between the queen and the septon, there is an ancient tradition going back to the early calts and existed in several other early civilizations, as well that the health of the monarch and the health of the people and the land are one and the same.
[SPEAKER_03]: If there is illness in the land or if there is an infestation in cattle or other sorts of disasters, then the leader ruler may even be sacrificed in order to return the land and the people to help.
[SPEAKER_03]: Think of Mary Roberts, the king must die for those of you who know it.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is sometimes referred to as the sacral nature of monarchy.
[SPEAKER_03]: How the sacred side of the dynamic was enacted would vary quite wildly, depending upon the nature of religious practice and expression.
[SPEAKER_03]: Think of Mary Annoles, the King Moustache for those of you who know, that's a double, yeah, she said that both twice, that must be a typo error.
[SPEAKER_03]: Eventually, as Rome corporatized Christianity, turning it into an imperial bureaucracy of sorts, the power to declare the monarch to be fit to rule was vested in the bishops, whose territories had their roots in Roman governmental organizations.
[SPEAKER_03]: Bonarchy and religion have been closely tied together for millennia.
[SPEAKER_03]: All that differ from age to age is the form in which it takes place.
[SPEAKER_03]: and the nature of the power dynamics.
[SPEAKER_03]: As infuriating as it is, the septons behavior rooted in bigotry and misogyny of nothing else is following the historical precedent from ancient and early Europe.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, the septic gets so go kick rocks.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_05]: He's historically accurate.
[SPEAKER_05]: in his rocket-kicking nature, and as I look back on history, they also can't take rocks.
[SPEAKER_05]: So yeah, totally, totally.
[SPEAKER_05]: It is a great interpretation.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's the first thing I thought about was being crowned Emperor by their pope of bishop or whoever was in charge at the time, needing
[SPEAKER_03]: legitimized in the eyes of the of the world and then in some other cultures the king was the god right like you just caught out the middle man in the church was the state.
[SPEAKER_03]: with make sense.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Why have this extra layer of bureaucracy?
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll just control the whole thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Makes much more sense.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, efficient.
[SPEAKER_03]: But all these things have their downfalls, because human beings are messy and I don't think we ever, uh, we don't necessarily swing.
[SPEAKER_03]: We don't, yeah, we're a funny, funny species.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and then we have the enlightenment and then you can sort of think for yourself and, um, yeah, sure.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then we divests, we divest the church from the structure power.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Although some people would like to undo that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, there's lots of parallels.
[SPEAKER_03]: Lots of real-world parallels here.
[SPEAKER_03]: Lots, lots.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think it's interesting, too, it's really interesting to think about how Rome maintained its power and how it, you know, what systems and structures it set up to maintain such a long rule.
[SPEAKER_03]: And yet still it, you know, it had its end as well, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So for for all the that they put into place, I'm recently, okay, get this.
[SPEAKER_03]: Uh, did I say this before I can't remember if I mentioned this, but my daughter's been She's discovered Monte Python.
[SPEAKER_03]: We've watched him skin.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, no.
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, she's watched some full episodes.
[SPEAKER_03]: She even has a friend that also really enjoys it and we watched a life of Brian.
[SPEAKER_03]: She and I my daughter.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so the whole scene of, you know, what did the Romans ever do for us?
[SPEAKER_03]: We had a we had a good chuckle together and talk about that.
[SPEAKER_03]: So
[SPEAKER_01]: Good stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right, do you want to read Maryland's last message and then after this show, we'll swing into the book, Book It Bitch In Section.
[SPEAKER_05]: All right, cool.
[SPEAKER_05]: David asked on this episode that I post something about the concept of no bless oblique.
[SPEAKER_05]: It literally means nobility oblige and was as much as a philosophy as a practice.
[SPEAKER_05]: Basically, it meant as David alluded to that those who have,
[SPEAKER_05]: should give to those who have thought.
[SPEAKER_05]: And this way it applies to more than simple nobility.
[SPEAKER_05]: Anyone with a goodly amount of resources was obligated through custom and doing the right thing to share those with others who had little or nothing.
[SPEAKER_05]: It goes back to ancient Greece as a philosophy and contributes to the Roman system of painter and client.
[SPEAKER_05]: which had a wide variety of interpretations.
[SPEAKER_05]: Patrons might give influence as well as monetary benefits.
[SPEAKER_05]: In terms of nobles' right relationship with what this series refers to as the small folk, this becomes a bit more codified as time went on.
[SPEAKER_05]: An Anglo-Saxon England lordship rested upon bounds of loyalty rather than talents, working lands owned by the Lord.
[SPEAKER_05]: That system came in with the Norman invasion of 1066, when Billy the Conk
[SPEAKER_05]: declared that all lands belong to the King, who didn't do those lands out as patronage to those who had served them.
[SPEAKER_05]: The Saxons had a different idea.
[SPEAKER_05]: People owned their own land and offered services to local, to a local overlord in times of war, etc.
[SPEAKER_05]: In the Lord would offer support in assistance
[SPEAKER_05]: by the middle-to-late medieval period this had developed into a system called affinity.
[SPEAKER_05]: A Lord would gather his affinity around him, lesser Lords and knights, without any particular land or other patronage.
[SPEAKER_05]: Those lesser folks would agree to answer the Lord's call to military service, and might also live on some of his lands or even travel with him as he went from place to place.
[SPEAKER_05]: This became dangerous when the monarch was weak, or called into question as lords might collect their affinities, or bond them, and decide to settle scores with bad neighbors, capture castles they had an eye on, and sometimes even change monarchs.
[SPEAKER_05]: This certainly happened during the period of Anarchy, which this show is mirroring, to some degree.
[SPEAKER_05]: But was particularly called out during the War of the Roses, which was never called any such thing until after the Shakespeare.
[SPEAKER_05]: The wrath of the words referred to as the Cousins War, because it was basically two descendants of a previous monarch, both claiming the right of succession through their lineage.
[SPEAKER_03]: thoughts.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I have a meta thought, which is like, how lucky are we to have insightful community and whether it's professional or personal and a variety experience, just that the eloquence with the dopamineys, voicemail, or Marilyn or Nate's point of view,
[SPEAKER_03]: to encyclopedic knowledge across so many domains.
[SPEAKER_03]: Gosh.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know where we wreaked John in that in this pantheon.
[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, John is having a hard time.
[SPEAKER_05]: John is up there.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm giving him a hard time because he can fail on the show.
[SPEAKER_03]: He barely did it with him the other day about something.
[SPEAKER_03]: And he was like, oh, I started watching Medic Up, busy, and so we'll see.
[SPEAKER_03]: We'll see if he shows up on one of these podcasts for me.
[SPEAKER_03]: OK.
[SPEAKER_03]: uh... yet no but interesting uh... it's basically sort of what i scratched out on the from the internet script off the internet that the other day was that not only does it go back to sort of Greek and romantines in terms of western europe but there are many systems around the globe where there is some sort of
[SPEAKER_03]: I hate to use the word de redistribution because that is a low-determiner in a modern context, but there are many different varieties of mechanisms and philosophies and duty of care to obligations to redistribution where resources get somehow moved around in different ways.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think Neoblesa Bleesh has a kind of a two-edged nature to it.
[SPEAKER_03]: On the one hand, yeah, you know, you should be looking after people, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And sort of making sure that as a community, you guys can all survive.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so maybe you need to rebalance the distribution.
[SPEAKER_03]: But at the same time, it said it also goes at the same time to enforcing social codes
[SPEAKER_03]: You don't have no blessed beliefs unless you have no bulls, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And so then that sort of codifies that system and sort of locks it into place in tradition and practice.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then it takes something to break that into change culture.
[SPEAKER_03]: And oftentimes those are radical and world-chattering sort of seismic events.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's interesting that within our nature
[SPEAKER_03]: balancing resources, even though we can be incredibly selfish, and we can very much forget the idea of noblessobly's.
[SPEAKER_03]: It still is something that is embedded in us at some level.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we can certainly think of the tech barons and of the the the newvo race in this country is completely forgotten.
[SPEAKER_03]: This idea of noblessobly's.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're kind of like antithetical to it in a lot of ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time,
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a humongous amount of private philanthropy that goes on in this country that I think it's largely unobserved.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was on a call today, actually, for a nonprofit board that I'm on, we're talking to one of our donors, and they're just so generous, and so wonderful, and it's great, and we couldn't do the work that we do with some youth education, art, stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: without private philanthropy.
[SPEAKER_03]: So there is an obligation of the nobles in terms of people supporting in a lot of ways.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I hate it.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think it's comfortableism.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, allowed that to be something, which, you know, get we could go into.
[SPEAKER_05]: how the three hours.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's a different podcast.
[SPEAKER_05]: But what I will say in terms of of the show is that in terms of this universe, I think the only times that I can say that I've seen that
[SPEAKER_05]: would make a point of saying that we have to take care of our people.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right?
[SPEAKER_05]: That's one of their things.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like you don't get it, you don't get that in King's land.
[SPEAKER_05]: We don't get that with, you know,
[SPEAKER_05]: So, I think that's one of the, maybe it's because they follow the faith, the old dides, you know, where they, who knows, but there's something about the North in this universe that you actually see them practice that.
[SPEAKER_05]: Whereas it's very rare to see other houses do that.
[SPEAKER_05]: in terms of taking that we've seen, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that we've seen.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's what I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_05]: That we've seen.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's interesting.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's, um, and the starccer sort of this, uh, if there's a good guy that we kind of all vibe with, it's always seems to be sort of the starccer to some degree.
[SPEAKER_03]: The sun degree.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the idea, a couple of ideas occurred to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: One, maybe it's
[SPEAKER_03]: Because of the environment creates a little bit, changes the nature of the bonds and the need to depend on each other in a different way.
[SPEAKER_03]: When you have strong winters like that, and taking care of each other through those hard times, maybe that strengthens the bonds in a way that's a little bit different than in other climates.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then they don't hear of the, of the, the great houses of the North hoarding away food and such.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: They made it a point of this episode to, to make that claim.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_05]: And doing for the people you were just doing it for yourself.
[SPEAKER_03]: And, and that well, that middle tier wealth.
[SPEAKER_03]: But that's hard fought for for those people, they're, they guard that jellishly because it's not big wealth, it's not huge money that isn't, it's going to be very hard to lose that position.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, yeah, there's a, there's a, there's a jellishy, there's a zero-some game mentality, there's a, a, a resourced scarcity of resource mentality.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, resources, yes, yes, yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Where's the star?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, well, we've got to spread things out a little bit.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm assuming this is true.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because we have to have an integrated society up here because all of our labor is needed to be able to... We're about to survive, you know, the change.
[SPEAKER_03]: The changes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: The other thing that makes me think about is the nature of religions in West rose, the tension between the old gods and the seven and the dragons and what the septons had last episode about dragons being profane magic.
[SPEAKER_03]: And he recognizes the existence of magic and yet he rejects it and is encountered to it.
[SPEAKER_03]: But do we ever really see the seven or do the seven actually manifest in any
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a question for listeners.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do we ever see this seven actually affect the world?
[SPEAKER_03]: Or they completely invisible in a way, invisible is the right word, not they don't affect the world.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_05]: No.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because old gods are around right there with the little hornmen and the bleeding trees and
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, no, we don't, we don't see the 7.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's an interesting question.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: It makes their religion even more suspect.
[SPEAKER_05]: But that's one of the podcasts.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's do this.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's wrap this up.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's say one final, commercial break.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then we come back.
[SPEAKER_03]: We'll talk a little bit about book spoilers in our book,
[UNKNOWN]: Thank you for watching.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, we're back.
[SPEAKER_03]: Spoiler warning.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is where we talk about things from the book.
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you don't want to be here, then don't be here.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is your warning to escape.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because we're going to talk.
[SPEAKER_03]: We don't have that much to talk about.
[SPEAKER_03]: Alicia has got a voice mail for us with some really good stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then I've got a couple of other things.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I wanted to ask you to join.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you had anything to track, but one thing I wanted to flag really quick, which I thought was interesting.
[SPEAKER_03]: Alicia pointed out that.
[SPEAKER_03]: The, why brought up the question of why Helena didn't want to be in that room?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: because she, that's the room where she meets her just in my demise, ultimately, ultimately.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it was like, oh, isn't that interesting?
[SPEAKER_03]: So, Helena, in that moment, it was like, you, everybody's like, what, why, huh?
[SPEAKER_03]: And then this is like this beauty of the show is that they're laying tracks.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then when they get, when we get to that scene, we're all going to go back to this scene, all of us non-book readers and go, oh, she was doing her weird trip and through time thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: in this.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, any, you think you want to comment about that?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that I just, when I thought about it, I did, I just didn't, make the connection because I didn't see that happening this season.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, your thing is, this is going to be an, an active, an event that's going to happen next season.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: But it's going to happen.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they've clearly signaled, they've just signaled to all the book readers that it will happen.
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess you just want to be in the group by saying that, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, let's listen to Alicia's voicemail really quick and see what she has to say for spoilers for us this episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, let's jump into a quick bit of bookbitching.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now I mentioned in my other voicemail about Thor and Manderly.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to say keep an eye on him because in the book at least he does eventually serve as one of the regions
[SPEAKER_00]: And in between, so probably next week or the week after, he, or probably the week after, he's one of the people who convinces Reneera to distrust all the dragon seeds after Ulf and Hugh turn their cloaks at the Battle of Tumbleton.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is interesting to hear that Hughes' wife is living in Tumbledin.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been wondering what would make him turn.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think with the wolf it's pretty clear.
[SPEAKER_00]: But also, it was a slight insult to him that Reneira, not only she not offering him a house immediately, but she's offering him a house on the second best hill of Ascenia's Hill, rather than Aegon's High Hill.
[SPEAKER_00]: So basically saying to him, like, you were not of the upper class, but you know, you're elevated.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're still elevated.
[SPEAKER_00]: But still, definitely keeping the bastards in their place, and I think that's just gonna go wrong in all directions, obviously.
[SPEAKER_00]: The seeds for everyone, including Coralis, turning on Reneera, have been shown.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we know from Game of Thrones that's okay, just a quote, Jaffrey from Season 3 episode 4 of Game of Thrones.
[SPEAKER_00]: Reneera Targaryen was murdered by her brother,
[SPEAKER_00]: what's left of her is buried in the crypts right down there.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't believe that Sunfire is actually dead in decaying in the preview for next week.
[SPEAKER_00]: We saw Melis, a rainy season's dragon that fell on Brooks' rest, was indeed dead in decaying, so maybe Baylock got that confused.
[SPEAKER_00]: But Sunfire should be severely injured still, but alive.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I predict Aegon will be having
[SPEAKER_00]: It's also interesting that Reneera called for Elinda Massey to rejoin her as the only thing we really know about her from the books is that A, she fled King's Landing with Reneera after everything goes wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the most memorable thing is she allegedly gouged out her own eyes at the site of her queen being devoured by said dragon.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we'll see if they're going to go there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't see why not.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't see why they would bring her back, but if they weren't going to go there.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's also interesting that we saw Sylvie Amin's brothel mommy show back up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it was her.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it was her.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's also interesting that we saw Sylvie Amin's brothel mommy show back up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it was her.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was her.
[SPEAKER_00]: once heron hall.
[SPEAKER_00]: So is she incentivized to kill a man?
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't wait to see how weird and complex their relationship is about to be.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's enough for now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Looking forward to your thoughts on all of the above and beyond.
[SPEAKER_00]: Speak soon.
[SPEAKER_00]: Bye.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that was Sylvie.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's, I was pretty sure I wasn't wrong about that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Interesting about Sunfire because they made a point and somebody even in the discord asked and I posted a screenshot with that, they dead and dying, but that goes back to imperfect information, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: You're taking more points that are getting handed off and handed off and the accuracy as such is some, yeah, sometimes you can't do that to be desired.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's really interesting from a non-book reader, like, oh shit, like, oh damn!
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a lot more to uncoil from this storyline, this season.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this series, it's for this series overall.
[SPEAKER_03]: Any thoughts?
[SPEAKER_05]: Nothing, at least, as usual.
[SPEAKER_05]: She covered it all, but I will say that, um, yeah, I just
[SPEAKER_05]: It's going to be interesting to see what makes Hugh turn, because it's not simply just status or greed or however you want it to be like what's the slight, what is going to push him over the edge, will it be having to burn his wife getting on I mean, there's
[SPEAKER_05]: And so that's that's what I'm waiting to see.
[SPEAKER_05]: I want to see what causes you to go over what the actual trigger is.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah, well, we have this big battle the battle of tumbleton coming up right and is that going to be next episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: It feels like it does feel like it coming up.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right, does.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's right on the.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and we're going to see how they're going to pulse us along on this episode like we had a big opener and then we kind of retracted and then this was a very consequential episode in a lot.
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, a lot happened in this episode that they have to like kind of pick up on with and not just the battle of Tomberton that that's coming up.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, there are things from season, from episode two, like Alicia alluded to A-gon and Alice, A-mon, excuse me, and Alice, you know, in the hair and haul.
[SPEAKER_05]: So, yeah, there are things that are that are.
[SPEAKER_05]: left they need to be said are we going to see next episode are we going to see you know Damon fly off and go to the veil and encounter his daughter you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_05]: So there are things that could happen without the battle being shown right in this next episode.
[SPEAKER_05]: So I'm not entirely sure if they're going to get the battle
[SPEAKER_03]: I would hope that they, um, you know.
[SPEAKER_03]: push the intensity level back up again.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: This was an intense episode, but it was all from QV.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this one, let's get some of this external action again.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's get some fighting, let's get it running around, let's move around, let's, you know, it was I really enjoyed getting down very micro on this level with Reneera and seeing what she's dealing with, because then that's gonna have consequences as to as all of this other action,
[SPEAKER_03]: tension that's being built up and the system starts to release and then how she's we now have stakes and we now have perspective on Reneera for how things are going to unfold as it gets real messy.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think the second thing that I am looking forward to seeing, if we do get the battle, it's to see the uncrumpt North, you know, go, go, hey, why?
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, the, the old, the great beards?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, yes, the winter wolves.
[SPEAKER_03]: Nice.
[SPEAKER_05]: I want to see my uncrumpt North get busy.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_05]: That's what they came down here to do.
[SPEAKER_05]: They told me we're ready, fucking the die.
[SPEAKER_05]: Not even fuck shit, we came to die.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's what they said.
[SPEAKER_04]: And maybe you might have added it as well.
[SPEAKER_05]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_05]: We came to die and that's what we're going to do and let's see who else dies with us.
[SPEAKER_05]: So I'm kind of excited to see myungs from our north represent.
[SPEAKER_03]: I heard that.
[SPEAKER_03]: So what was this thing about fish feed?
[SPEAKER_05]: Abbey said mentioned there's a couple of people in Abbey's It's a battle on the shores of God's eye.
[SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[SPEAKER_05]: Um, who had basically the, if I recall correctly, the entire Lannister, the Lannister is a decimated.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: When we saw the result, we saw the end result of that.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: So the Lannister is a totally totally wiped out.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love that I love that opening of that scene to like seeing the body of a lion on the battlefield and you're like Oh, it's the Lannister.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, it's they got smashed But just by showing a corpse of a lion it was like It was great.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was really good storytelling long before we got that head so Cool, all right anything else that you want to cover in the book bitch and not too much Bitch and no no, I think
[SPEAKER_05]: Those are the two things that I'm really looking forward to.
[SPEAKER_05]: Seeing Hughes fall, and the winter wills.
[SPEAKER_05]: OK, let's bring it on.
[SPEAKER_03]: We will be back with you guys next week.
[SPEAKER_03]: We'll figure out our recording schedule Sunday night, as our next episode of four in the US time.
[SPEAKER_03]: Did you watch the,
[SPEAKER_03]: World Cup game today, did you watch, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: France.
[SPEAKER_03]: I lay there blue, yes, I watched that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I thought, you know, I was hopeful for Morocco for a hot minute, but they after about five, six minutes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah,
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, let's go move on.
[SPEAKER_03]: Mape got another score.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's like one under Messi at this point for World Cup score.
[SPEAKER_03]: All time, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And both of those guys are way above the next guy down, who's in like in third position, like with 16 goals, they're like at 2021 goals.
[SPEAKER_03]: So.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, let's go Belgium.
[SPEAKER_05]: Belgium, I think it's Belgium versus Spain.
[SPEAKER_05]: whoever wins that place, France.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm rooting for Belgium.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, red.
[SPEAKER_03]: This has been interesting because we had Spain, Portugal, and now we're going to have Belgium, France, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So we're having these like neighbors.
[SPEAKER_05]: No Spain, please Belgium, for the right to play France.
[SPEAKER_03]: This way, I'm saying, you've built your makes up, it's built in France, you've got to fight it, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
[SPEAKER_03]: Cool, man.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, we're going to get out of here.
[SPEAKER_03]: Special thanks to our, all of our supporters to our community volunteers to our discord server boosters and to our top tier lore.
[SPEAKER_03]: Master subscribers, we couldn't do it without you.
[SPEAKER_03]: John, that's always good.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's pleasure.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's fine.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thanks everybody.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I encourage everybody.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I know it's going to be the the books by their folks here, but please, like it, it makes it a much more richer show when we have your feedback.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, send us your ravens, however you want to.
[SPEAKER_03]: email hotd at plorounce.com or on the discord send us voice mails we're particularly love the voice mails so yeah we won't hear from you all right John peace
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to the lorehounds.
[SPEAKER_00]: Please send any questions and feedback to lorehounds at the lorehounds.com or hotd and the lorehounds.com and check out our supercast and patreon feeds for at-free access and bonus episodes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Look out for all of those links including links to all other podcasts and our network in the link tree in the show notes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities.
[UNKNOWN]: Thanks for watching!