[SPEAKER_00]: This is episode 511.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're a parent, if your kid has autism or if you have concerns about vaccines safety, then this episode is an absolute must.
[SPEAKER_00]: I sit down and speak with a medical doctor pediatrician father and the author of a book on vaccines and he is attempting to normalise conversations about vaccines and to simply make asking questions about your kid's health and
[UNKNOWN]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: On this episode, we talk about a few big topics, which are the very underwhelming risk of disease if you don't vaccinate.
[SPEAKER_00]: The terrible standard of research trials that vaccines go through, the risks of having multiple doses in a single vial, particularly for babies, of course.
[SPEAKER_00]: How big farmer has controlled the social and cultural narrative around vaccines, and we also give you some tools to use when you go to the doctor so you can start making much more informed, healthier decisions, and coming to that decision actually with your doctor.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, let's get into it!
[SPEAKER_00]: It's understanding why we eat the way we do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you don't need to be perfect to achieve great health either.
[SPEAKER_00]: That shift changed everything for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now I share it here as the host of the real weight loss coach podcast, where it's my mission to help 1 million people break free from the YoYo diet cycle for good.
[SPEAKER_00]: By bringing you the conversations that really matter in nutrition, health and psychology, and I'm not afraid to challenge mainstream health advice when it doesn't stack up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you ready?
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's begin.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's up my healthy friends?
[SPEAKER_00]: So today we're entering into the space of hard conversations, despite the fact that this really shouldn't be social suicide to talk about.
[SPEAKER_00]: Meet Dr. Joel Wash.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's just released a book that dares to do something rare, which is talking about vaccines without choosing a side.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's called between a shot in a hideplace.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's a board-certified pediatrician epidemiologist and integrative health expert who believes a respectful dialogue is the way forward, not censorship or fear, which we've seen a lot of in the last few years.
[SPEAKER_00]: So put your fists away and open your mind and Joel, welcome to the
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for having me on.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was a great intro.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not about fighting.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wish we could just discuss things more.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, I mean, we're here to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm curious, in the, like, given the, the last few years and COVID and, I mean, even before that, it was super controversial to talk about, or if you ever record, like suggested that, so there was a, like a consequence of vaccines, you know, was socially shunned.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what, what gave you the courage to talk about it, especially as a medical professional.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I regenerate.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't, you know, I, I, I, I think that.
[SPEAKER_01]: For me, I guess if I'm going back a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I did all the regular medical training.
[SPEAKER_01]: I trained a great Western program in Los Angeles.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I at that time met my wife, who's holistic minded, opened up my eyes to a little bit of a different viewpoint.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then as I was in practice, started to learn about integrated medicine and really never went back.
[SPEAKER_01]: from there and and when you're in the integrative space you start getting a lot of questions about vaccines from parents and and these are not things that I ever really thought about I mean when you're going through med school you're kind of taught here the vaccines here are the horrible diseases these vaccines are the best thing ever We have these horrible diseases before we don't have the many more so here's your schedule go do it that's all you really think you don't think to question that you don't really look anything up
[SPEAKER_01]: on your own.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's not a lot more discussion than that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's kind of how I went into practice, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, oh, yeah, vaccines.
[SPEAKER_01]: Great.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as you're going through, people start to have questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: They start to have stories.
[SPEAKER_01]: You start to learn a lot more.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it really did open on my eyes to another world.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had to start learning and researching a lot more about vaccines, just because I was getting so many questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, over the last decade, I really noticed that things were getting more and more sense, sort of, and they were always censored, but it was certainly much worse over the last few years.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it really wasn't something you could talk about.
[SPEAKER_01]: openly, which was unfortunate.
[SPEAKER_01]: You could think I talked about in the office, but online, if anybody mentioned anything like you said, you just get your platform shut down.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this wasn't something that was done.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think very frequently, but I just got really frustrated over COVID.
[SPEAKER_01]: I felt that it was something I needed to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had been researching and looking into vaccines so much for my practice, and then really wanted to write a book.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's why I did that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And really to me, it was, if I'm going to talk about this, I have to be as educated as
[SPEAKER_01]: When people are asking questions about vaccines, like, well, what should I read, what should I look at?
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was like, well, you got to read multiple things because everyone is so biased and every book you read is like on very one side.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I really wanted to do my best to try to do something that someone in the middle and talk about both sides of their sides and really what information is out there and what information we can get to.
[SPEAKER_01]: And ultimately, the goal was not to get people to do or not do anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just to have discussions.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I think we should be able to have a talk like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: talk about vaccines we could have different opinions that's fine but ultimately we should be able to discuss it and that way we can move forward to get the science that we need to get for the questions that people have that we don't actually have yet and and I think that should be okay but it just hasn't been or at least wasn't it's better now I mean I think people are much more open talking about it it's been surprising for me to see how open people have been an interested to talk about the last six months or so but but that wasn't what I expected.
[SPEAKER_00]: It feels like when somebody in the room is confident enough to talk about it, everybody else breathes a sigh of relief like, oh, finally we could talk about this, but you just need that first person that's like, not afraid of the consequences to bring it up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think so.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's certainly were people that did, but a lot of them did lose their platforms.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I wasn't confident enough to do that five, ten years ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I didn't feel it was right place for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sick of talk about vaccines, but I think you need to be really educated.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to go through the research after look at it yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because ultimately,
[SPEAKER_01]: And for sure for me, I realize there's very little that I knew from my training when it comes to vaccines, we assume a lot, but a lot of what your thought isn't actually necessarily true or not necessarily what the research actually shows or there are a lot of questions that people have that are reasonable questions that we should be able to discuss and for whatever reason.
[SPEAKER_01]: medicine is so definitive with their statements around vaccines and there's no room for for discussion or a potential problem or anything like that it seems like over the last few years and that's just not the reality of a medical product like everything has risks and we should be able to talk about that and we should be able to figure out how do we make a product better but that's not the angle of conversation it certainly wasn't the pandemic it was a safe and effective these are the best things ever and ever cause a problem and you're like well but they're new like how do we how do we know that they don't cause a problem how do we know they don't
[SPEAKER_01]: It caused a problem five years from now, like we don't know those things, and so there's a clear lack of honesty.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's going on, and I think that's very pervasive in the vaccine research.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was one of those people that lost the platform during code.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I formally worked in hospitals as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was during COVID that I made the choice to leave because I just felt that I could not work for an organization like my professor literally sat me down.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was very, very much, you know, rebelling, I guess.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, not even rebelling standing up for what I believed in, which to everybody would have looked like rebelling.
[SPEAKER_00]: And my professor even pulled me aside was like, I'm with, I'm all on board but we've got to keep everybody in a job.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I literally quit on the spot because I basically said, if I am working for someone in an organization that's willing to put politics and the law before, you know, human health.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this has meant to be a hospital.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then, you know, what else have you lied about?
[SPEAKER_00]: What else have you covered up because you've got to keep people in a job or whatever the narrative is?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, unfortunately, this podcast was doing very well.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was able to, you know, financially not be too scared of what was going to happen without a job.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I also got de-platformed my Instagram thousands of followers deleted.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, but the multiple year break from Instagram was probably healthy for my brain.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you mentioned medical school in there, like what is the sort of education for a doctor going through medical school on vaccines?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it just that they're good?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it one hour?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it, you know, 10 hours?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like how much do people actually get?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's hard to quantify because we certainly talk about vaccines, but it's not discussing really the background on vaccines or safety around vaccines, it's more around the diseases and efficacy and the schedule.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's very minimal.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I really don't recall that much training at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, not in medical school at all really, but other than learning about the diseases, but in pediatrics training, I mean, we definitely learn about the vaccines, we learn about the schedule, we learn some basic facts about why things were the way they are,
[SPEAKER_01]: And you certainly don't look at the safety research.
[SPEAKER_01]: You certainly don't learn about why you shouldn't trust Farma, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the kind of stuff you should be taught, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you should be like, why don't you just blindly trust Farma 101?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that would be a good thing to teach doctors.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, hey, maybe these companies that could make billions of dollars might not do everything in our best interest.
[SPEAKER_01]: Does it mean that we should trust them?
[SPEAKER_01]: Does it mean that there aren't amazing pharmaceuticals?
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course there are.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're very lucky that we have these things.
[SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, maybe they're not always that honest or maybe they...
[SPEAKER_01]: do things in a way to kind of massage the research to their benefit, you know, none of that is explained to any doctor.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they're just kind of taught, like, all right, here's the rest, here's what we said.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's the CDC schedule, you know, the schedule in your country, go do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what we're taught.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you don't think to question it because you're like, why would they tell me anything wrong?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, why would they?
[SPEAKER_01]: Why would there be a problem with vaccines?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it the best things ever like that?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's kind of the way that you think you just don't really question It's not in a fairies.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think some most people think Doctors do things in a fairies way like oh, they're ignoring like most people just don't know like I don't think most people know the research on vaccines They just think they do
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, one of the things that I, so I ended up sort of much more naturally health oriented or integrated, if you like, because of my experience in the cancer hospital.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's the biggest part of my career is working in cancer, leukemia, lymphoma, and being privy to a lot of conversations with pharmaceutical companies and asking for funding and presenting research.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I saw enough and heard enough things to begin being skeptical.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't grow up in a hippie, you know, woo, woo family or anything like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was just, I was, yeah, probably overtly confident to my benefit and or not, but that was the just the beginning of me asking some questions like, oh, like,
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, why don't we help people with other things like, in Australia, the Cancer Council website?
[SPEAKER_00]: I remember when I first got that job, I went to the Cancer Council website, and the first sentence on the about cancer page was 90 to 95% of cancer is diet and lifestyle.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I literally, again, went to my professor and I said, why is this place about diet and lifestyle?
[SPEAKER_00]: And he just kind of laughed me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I guess to extend that kind of conversation to vaccines,
[SPEAKER_00]: It seems like vaccines are the only medication which you're not allowed to talk about have any side effects.
[SPEAKER_00]: There meant to be these magical mystical things that are just perfect for humanity, but all the other drugs that's totally normal to have side effects, and you hear the advertisements which have a one minute ad for in the US, particularly for the drug, and then a four minute disclaimer because of all of the side effects.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why do you think we've got this culture or this culture has been produced where vaccines are mythical, magical things that save us from and all the other drugs are, you know, it's normal for them to have side effects.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that that has to be a product of farm.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they have so much money.
[SPEAKER_01]: They've got in so big.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think they have shaped the narrative around around that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that they've just, they had so much money.
[SPEAKER_01]: They funded the journals.
[SPEAKER_01]: They funded the doctors.
[SPEAKER_01]: They funded the medical schools.
[SPEAKER_01]: They funded the programs.
[SPEAKER_01]: They funded the news.
[SPEAKER_01]: They have their tentacles and everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that it's not necessarily nefarious.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just really good marketing.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're just really good at making everybody not even realize that they're doing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: and their job is to sell more products, and especially when it comes to America, we can't sue vaccine manufacturers.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's against the law here.
[SPEAKER_01]: And basically, if you do have a reaction, you sue the government, and then there's a special fund that maybe you can get to money from, but you don't sue the government.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't sue the company, which is the way that every other thing is.
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
[SPEAKER_01]: The manufacturers don't have incentive, like anybody else would with any other product to make them better or make them safer.
[SPEAKER_01]: They have all the incentive to get it on the market, to get it on the schedule, because then a lot of people do it, and they have all the organizations and doctors kind of behind them saying it's the best thing ever, they don't have to do anything else.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they don't have the push really to make it safer or better.
[SPEAKER_01]: They just have a push to get it on the market, and that's a very unique thing with vaccines.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, I don't think it's nefarious.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just think,
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the environment that's come about over the last 50 years because you have these wildly profitable products for these companies that they don't have to worry about.
[SPEAKER_01]: Safety not really because they're not getting sued for it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, obviously they don't want like a super unsafe drug, but when it comes to vaccines, they're most reactions, you're like, it's just coincidence.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's really hard to know what actually does occur from a vaccine or not.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's a big problem with the vaccine world is that we don't exactly know how safe they are.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's funny, so that was, you know, in preparation for our conversation, just looking around the internet, who's doing what, who's talking about what on YouTube, with this conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it was the Dr. Mike who's got a massive follow on YouTube.
[SPEAKER_00]: He sat down with like 20 and he vatters and yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And what blew my mind is that he talked a lot about co-incidence.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like as a health professional or as just a logical human being when somebody presents was something the first thing you do is build a timeline of like what happened, what triggered it, what happened, like after that or before that, what did you eat or what did you do, what was the situation and it's like in any situation, the professional usually ask a few questions about the timeline of events that happened around said reaction and they just kept talking about.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh, it's a coincidence that these things happen and we can't rule that out.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I agree we can't rule that out.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it was just wild how it's like, we apply this like one abstract thinking to this situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: And to not be open to the idea that, well, a medication that's got heavy metals and a range of other things in it has just gone into the human body.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the idea that they might not be, might never be a reaction to that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just, it's wild to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, and that's like the exact way that I think about it too because yes, like coincidence does happen and it could be coincidence And it is true.
[SPEAKER_01]: You could get a vaccine this morning and die this afternoon of a heart attack and it could have nothing to do with that vaccine and you would have had a heart attack anyways But if a lot of people are having heart attacks the afternoon after they have a vaccine you should probably look into it, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like that is the basis of science.
[SPEAKER_01]: It coincidence does not mean causation
[SPEAKER_01]: But you start to notice a pattern, and when you notice a pattern, then you take note of that pattern and then you start to study it and then you get the best kind of studies possible, you know, perspective trials and things like that to look at the things that people are saying over and over again and we have hundreds of thousands of not millions of people saying the same thing, you know, whether it's autism, long-term complications, heart issues, you know, after COVID vaccine, like all these things that were just coincidences and it's like, okay, maybe some of it is, I'm not saying that it's not, but
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't call these people, woo, these are literally people that went to get a vaccine that think that the vaccine caused their issue done.
[SPEAKER_01]: They could be wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what the research is for, but to just brush that off as a coincidence to me is so disheartening and it's, it's so counter-intuitive to everything else that we've ever done.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in medicine, it's like, okay, you give a kid, you know, it'd be just like give them moxicillin for, I don't know, an ear infection.
[SPEAKER_01]: and they get some hives or a rash.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, oh, they're probably allergic to a moxicillin, even if it might, it would just been from the virus.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's never get the moxillin again in their life.
[SPEAKER_01]: You give a kid a vaccine.
[SPEAKER_01]: They have a seizure a day later and like, oh, it's a coincidence.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the, the things just don't add up.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, look, you
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't have to say that vaccines cause all sorts of problems all the time, but to assume that they never cause a problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's ridiculous.
[SPEAKER_01]: To assume that it's one in a million doesn't make any sense to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: We haven't looked for a lot of the long-term complications, so we don't exactly know how common that might be.
[SPEAKER_01]: and we're just assuming that they're just always safe and effective, which is can't be the case.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you're injecting a bunch of stuff into kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: Some kids with some genetics and certain situations are going to have a reaction sometime.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not woo woo.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we've documented that they've had seizures.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Guillain-Barray, Sidney, um,
[SPEAKER_01]: and cephalitis, so we know these things can occur for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: So why couldn't some of the other things also occur sometimes?
[SPEAKER_01]: And if each one of these things is one and a million, but you add up all those things and you're getting 30 plus vaccines, well, that number starts to get smaller really quickly.
[SPEAKER_01]: It starts to be go from one and a million to one in 10,000 or one in a thousand pretty quickly when you start to have a lot of vaccines with a lot of different potential issues that are rare.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so those are the kind of things that we have to be able to look into research and study because you have to say, well,
[SPEAKER_01]: If we have some of these diseases that aren't really around anymore, then do we need to keep giving that vaccine?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or what is the risk benefit ratio?
[SPEAKER_01]: Does this kid need it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or should we make a safer vaccine because the risks are too high for the benefit?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like these are the questions that are science that we should be able to ask, not to say we should never vaccinate, but
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe there are certain ones that we don't have to do anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or maybe there are ones that we don't have to do as much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we don't just give everybody a smallpox vaccine anymore just because we have the vaccine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we haven't had smallpox, we don't do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: How many diphtheria cases are there?
[SPEAKER_01]: How many pollio cases are there?
[SPEAKER_01]: There are a lot of things we just don't see very much of anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: So maybe we don't need to give kids five of those.
[SPEAKER_00]: The argument though from most people, which I know you understand already, is usually we need to keep vaccine because otherwise, all of those terrible things will come back.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that that is not an unreasonable thought right, but that doesn't necessarily mean that a two month old needs to get some of these things if there if there hasn't been a case in in four to years like maybe you can give a kid one vaccine when they're 10 instead of four vaccines in the first year for polio.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know the answer though.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying these are the things we could talk about.
[SPEAKER_01]: These are things that should be reasonable discussions.
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, we don't pull it to come back and everybody get polio, but you may not need to give these all to newborn babies when there hasn't been cases in a long time, especially as we start to add more and more vaccines.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's not unreasonable to look at cumulative effect.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so start saying, well, maybe there are too many.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we're getting to a point where we shouldn't just keep adding more.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we got to prioritize the most important ones.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or even if even from a safety perspective, let's just say they are totally safe, but maybe there's just too many
[SPEAKER_01]: parents are just very concerned that there's too many.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're going to go in too frequently.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're going to poke their kids too many times.
[SPEAKER_01]: So maybe we just need to prioritize which ones are the most important and the other ones can just be more of a recommendation.
[SPEAKER_01]: The other ones are like, well, we really think you should get your measles shot.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the one you should prioritize.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not hearing any sort of discussion.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, I'm not saying what the right answer is.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just we should be able to have these discussions because it's not woo woo.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not crazy and we're talking about the most benefit.
[SPEAKER_01]: for the least risk and if you can't talk about the risk and you can't talk about the benefit and you can't weigh the pro's versus the cons and you can't have an educated discussion about what's best for our kids is just more and more and more and that doesn't work for me as someone who tries to think these things through that you can't just do a million vaccines like there has to be a point where it's too many.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I mean, I've got so many things I want to talk about, but I was just thinking too historically speaking, to get to this place where we're unquestioning and we're so willing to get more and more vaccines.
[SPEAKER_00]: And as a long history in both England and the USA, you know, of being very heavily regimented and enforced by the police,
[SPEAKER_00]: and there was lots of laws through the 1700s, 1800s about the compulsory vaccination despite an uprising and a rebellion that which occurred many times and so and where we've got a six-month-old baby at the moment and so we're around lots of new parents and you know parents just literally like can't wait to get them all into their kid and this is not their fault like that they don't know the risks or that they all
[SPEAKER_00]: in the the mix of identity politics are like I'm not one of those crazy hippies that thinks that stuff and they're like oh why can't we just get them all on the same day and they're asking these questions and it's like oh these poor kids like these little babies nervous systems and biology that's just being infiltrated with such massive amounts of stuff which might not be helpful.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, I think that is the question, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, like, you should be able to talk about that rationally and say, look, there are certainly some potential benefits from vaccines, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And we certainly don't want kids to get sick from measles and die or hermothloast and die.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, we don't want that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you're also doing a bunch of stuff to a child.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're poking them, you're injecting them.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of things in vaccines.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not just an antigen.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are metals.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it's a small amount.
[SPEAKER_01]: But,
[SPEAKER_01]: that's just, you know, oh, it's just a small amount.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's okay, it never caused an issue.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, but, you know, someone can walk by a peanut and have a whiff and, and, and get NFL access.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, everybody's different.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone's genetics are different.
[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe for certain kids that little amount of metal is too much or maybe whatever other thing in the vaccine, you have an allergic reaction to or have a reaction to.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, these are all the things that we have to consider when we're talking about our kid.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as we add more and more, it needs to be okay to have discussions about,
[SPEAKER_01]: risk versus benefits.
[SPEAKER_01]: How many is too many?
[SPEAKER_01]: What's the right amount?
[SPEAKER_01]: What's the individual risk?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you really need these things?
[SPEAKER_01]: How much do you need them?
[SPEAKER_01]: Which ones are better?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like these are all the questions we have to discuss as opposed to just do it because we said so and like you said
[SPEAKER_01]: Most people don't realize what your risks are for most of these diseases and your risks are almost zero.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's very, very, very, very low for the majority of these diseases.
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of them are not around anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or even if they are around and you get it, your risk is really, really small of having a serious disease.
[SPEAKER_01]: Most of the time, it's a mild cold for a lot of these diseases.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, could you get very sick?
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure you could.
[SPEAKER_01]: The people die from the flu, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: Could you die from measles?
[SPEAKER_01]: You could.
[SPEAKER_01]: But most people don't.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think you just need to understand those risks because it doesn't mean you want to have a risk for measles and you want to take their risk you might not you might want your measles shot and that basically decreases your risk from that disease to zero, but maybe have a very sensitive kid who has a lot of reactions to everything and maybe that's not the kid that needs 15 vaccines maybe you can prioritize or maybe that kid doesn't get any vaccines that's the one you're protecting like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what we're supposed to be talking about, we're supposed to be talking about protecting each kid.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want kids to get sick.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want them to be healthier and just by doing more vaccines is not necessarily always the answer.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been a question that just at a curiosity what your thoughts are on my thinking here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like over the last 100 years, you know, commercialization of basically every industry is occurred.
[SPEAKER_00]: And with that, well, what has driven that in many ways is convenience.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like, how fast can we get to a result?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and I'm sure that Boobo Amazon's next step is to actually feed you the food.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I have, like, brains of your brain.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, totally.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm wondering, like,
[SPEAKER_00]: Once upon a time, resilience and hardship was just an expected part of life and met very much a right of passage and I'm wondering if the modern farm and narrative or the convenience culture has produced a Western culture or maybe a global culture of people that are totally fearful of or doing everything to avoid illness and sickness and the measles and the flu and these kinds of things.
[SPEAKER_00]: Even sure again, we don't want to die from those things, but there's benefit to going through them for the immune system.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's, we know that back in the day they used to have parties where you would go and everybody would catch chicken pox to ensure that they never got it again.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm wondering if this idea of like, do everything you can to avoid my kid getting sick is driving this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, actually.
[SPEAKER_00]: might be better for them to catch some of these things so that their immune system can be trained and develop in a way that means that they're healthy or later on or they've built some immunological resilience.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so convenience cultures may be like, oh, we've got vaccines.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just avoid all of the problems.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that's a very good nuanced question that is it's difficult to answer because there's a lot of parts to that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But
[SPEAKER_01]: from the way that I think about it is, I mean, if you go back in time, I think we're much more afraid of disease than we should be now, because of the historical context.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if you go back even the early 1900s, the death rate from what diseases was extremely high.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I believe that we have this
[SPEAKER_01]: false memory through culture of the fact that vaccines saved us all and got rid of all these diseases, which isn't true, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, most of these diseases of the death rate was near zero before the vaccines ever hit the market.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the reality of a lot of these conditions like let's say measles.
[SPEAKER_01]: even for our great, like our great, great, great components.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a huge deal, like if you got measles, there's a good chance you might die back then, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me not a huge chance, but like you were worried about it or if you cut the flu back then.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you see where the disease rates went and they were plummeting before the vaccines came out.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was really that we're better at nutrition.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have better sanitation.
[SPEAKER_01]: We understand what diseases are.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know, of course, it's pooping in the street.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have antibiotics.
[SPEAKER_01]: All these things that can actually help save your life.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there was still a lot of disease around,
[SPEAKER_01]: there was still a lot of cases of measles, but it was very mild around the time when when the vaccine came out to the point where there were maybe even just 300 to 400 deaths from measles per year before the vaccine ever came out, and there's still tens of thousands from the flu, so you can see the relative concern level there, like the concern around measles is not really proportional to the death rate, and that's, you know, 50 years ago now, so
[SPEAKER_01]: We, I think, are so afraid of all of these diseases, which would cause illness, but not necessarily severe illness for most people now could it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it could, but I think we're in a much better place in society in general to handle these diseases and and I do think I think we're we're
[SPEAKER_01]: We're used to convenience.
[SPEAKER_01]: We also think social media makes it much tougher because you see the very worst case scenario.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's really easy to see the one kid in on Australia or in Europe that gets measles and die.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, oh, this is the worst thing ever.
[SPEAKER_01]: We could have prevented this, but when the reality is one kid out of the millions that gets it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you have to, if you have a scientific mindset back, say, OK, we don't want that one kid to die.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if the measles vaccine is causing a thousand deaths, well, it's a trade-off there, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So you have to weigh that and you have to say, OK, so is the measles vaccine benefiting even more than the deaths?
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the weight calculations that you have to make.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you have to take into account, OK, like pneumonia, another serious complication.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you have to think about that holistically.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why it's so complicated.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not as simple.
[SPEAKER_01]: question, but I do think, yes, we're, we're so used to convenience, we're so used to simplicity, and we're so used to like, well, we have these things.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like, let's just stamp out these, these tend to season.
[SPEAKER_01]: Even though there's so many other things you can catch, but, but ultimately,
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we've moved so far to putting vaccines as a religion that we're forgetting they're just a medical product and ultimately for each one, you have to weigh the potential benefit from that protection of that disease against potential risks you take from that vaccine.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, and,
[SPEAKER_01]: You mentioned another great point, which is never really talked about or very, really talked about, but like, what are the benefits from actually getting a disease?
[SPEAKER_01]: So, yes, you have to survive the disease, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you do, then you have better immunity.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, we know that's a for sure true, and then does that disease have any sort of long term benefits to your immune system or other things?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's complicated and controversial.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a reasonable question.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's a way that we've evolved.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think they're probably are some potential benefits to some of these diseases for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Assuming you don't die from it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the goal is always to not die.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: But people say that they're like, oh, there's so many benefits from measles and you're like, yes, but that's assuming you didn't die, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So you have to like, you have to weigh those two things because, yes, you have a better immunity, but the theoretical point of a vaccine would be you're giving somebody
[SPEAKER_01]: You're giving your immune system a knowledge of the disease so that way you don't get super sick when you get it So like that's the literal point of a vaccine It's to not get really really sick if it works well But if you don't give a vaccine then you still have the potential of getting really sick from the disease So you have to weigh those two things
[SPEAKER_00]: totally and well then the other thing as part of weighing those things is like with improved sanitization, sterilization, nutrition, and all of those things, am I more likely to whether the storm, you know, then die?
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, and you, and you are, I mean, you are more likely to whether a storm and die back then, but for sure now you are, I mean, you can run to any disease and there is very little death from any of these diseases combined that we've vaccinated for.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's just,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, maybe a few thousand deaths total of all the diseases that I've taken out flu for all the kids, the kid vaccines, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And the cases are really low right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: So even if you didn't vaccinate at all, almost all these diseases have very few cases, maybe just a couple thousand every year.
[SPEAKER_01]: So your chance of even getting them, you know, maybe other than woping cough are extremely low.
[SPEAKER_01]: But not zero.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so possible.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there's a public health aspect to it because for some of the vaccines, they do stop transmissions.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if everybody sells vaccine and then it will probably come back and there'll be more cases.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you are weighing those two things.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yes, currently, for most diseases, you're never going to see it whether you vaccinated or not.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm curious as well, like, I guess the conversation comes up where we're talking about, you mentioned it sort of like a religion, the religion of scientism, and it's always like, now we don't even debate around death and outcomes.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just like whether you've got it or not, whether you're a believer or you're an anti-vaxxer.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's like we're not even talking about, yeah, the consequence of the things we're talking.
[SPEAKER_00]: Consequences of the vaccines or the benefits of the vaccines per se, it's just you.
[SPEAKER_00]: you're in this camp or you're in this camp.
[SPEAKER_00]: But what what was the thing that you mentioned at the start your partner was is holistically minded and but did you see and working with children and working with people?
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you say people having vaccine reactions or injuries?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that what led you really down this path to write a book?
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I don't think it's seeing the injuries.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's talking to parents.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I wouldn't say that I've seen a ton of horrible injuries.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm certainly seeing the more minor things.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've certainly had parents come to me that swear.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's happened to them and just being in this space.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've had so many people reach out to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's just,
[SPEAKER_01]: watching with my own eyes, with my own listening, with my own ears, hearing how many stories are, how many people have similar concerns, even during COVID, how many doctors had issues with the COVID vaccine, and how many had their own problems.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, you're just sitting there, I'm like, well, if this many people are having issues, how many more are there, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And how many things are not going reported, what is the real scope of the problem?
[SPEAKER_01]: And
[SPEAKER_01]: you're talking about let's see what the covexing like doctors that had liver issues or hard issues or you know died suddenly maybe it was maybe wasn't from the covexing but like enough things that they themselves described as a problem that they had with the vaccine and then like but everybody should go get it and you're like do you not see this in the small tech group like 10 people had a problem so
[SPEAKER_01]: like how many more people are having it and it's not that you shouldn't ever do it but I think there's this like really large mismatch between the reality of what's going on and and what I'm seeing with my own eyes and the way that we talk about it and that let me know talk about it because if I'm going to be asked all these questions I don't feel like I could answer these questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: unless I had done the research myself because most of the research I didn't know and I didn't feel confident enough to do it because it's quite a big thing to say when you're going to go and you're going to say well I don't think they have been studied long term like they should be or oh I don't think the research on vaccines and autism is definitive like we say it like you have to know that you have to be sure and even when I was going through I was like that can't be it like you know you go through some things like that can't be true
[SPEAKER_01]: You would think that hepatitis B vaccine that we give to newborns on day one of life would have such extensive research and such impressive safety testing and in the package insert
[SPEAKER_01]: It's studied for five days and 147 kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the safety testing for the hepatitis B vaccine.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's in the package insert.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that can't be it.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no way that that's what it was approved based upon.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was, like, there's been freedom information act, petitions, try to get more information.
[SPEAKER_01]: And nothing that I've seen, no books, no government resources, nothing has shown that it was approved based on more than that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you start to see things like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, what, like, that's something we're giving to every new born and we're going to say that it's so safe based on that, like that, I'm not saying it's unsafe.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm saying, that's not good enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we have to do more testing to make sure if you're giving something to a new brown baby that is not causing problems down the line, especially for something that they probably aren't going to get when there are new born baby anyways.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we need to have higher safety standards, I think.
[SPEAKER_00]: off a totally agree.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll have this debate with some of our friends quite regularly on the way that the testing and it is done of vaccines and so often the new vaccine is compared against is really just the last vaccine and a lot of people get into this conversation of
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm often like there's not enough placebo controlled trials and everyone says there is and it's like no, no, there's a very important distinction because placebo and placebo like
[SPEAKER_00]: There's the very important distinction there because placebo like is not placebo and is often actually another drug.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, well, it's a trick that's been played by the pharma company because the definition of placebo is an in a nerd substance, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know that and it's something that, you know, saltwater saline to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not supposed to do anything in your body.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so the way that almost all these trials have been conducted for the regular scheduled vaccines, especially the original ones, they use the placebo, but the placebo was not a nerd.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not really a placebo.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just they call it a placebo.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they could say, yeah, it was placebo controlled tested.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was, if, if, if someone in the farm was like, oh, we placebo controlled tested it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: They did, but they didn't use an actual placebo.
[SPEAKER_01]: They just called it a placebo.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that, that's the reality of what a lot of that research is.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it gives you a relative safety, not absolute safety.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we're left with this weird circular thinking when it comes to vaccines.
[SPEAKER_01]: And a great example that I like, I talk about often is the whipping coffee vaccine, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because the new one, the DTAPA seller pretusses was tested against the old one, DTP, wholesale pretusses.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the old one was taken off the market for safety issues.
[SPEAKER_01]: right for concerns around encephalitis and seizures.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so you're saying, well, we have this new one on the market that's safe, but it's only relatively safe.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it was a little safer, but does that mean that the new one is safe?
[SPEAKER_01]: And it doesn't mean that it isn't safe, but it's not the best kind of testing that we should have.
[SPEAKER_01]: and to just give an example for some of that maybe not familiar with this kind of research.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you're doing a study and you're going a vaccine A versus a vaccine B, in both groups, they have 10 seizures.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the way that it's done right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have this placebo that's a different vaccine or a mixture of something minus the antigen and they say, oh yeah, well, they both had 10 seizures.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's equal, no more seizures.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's safe.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's their study.
[SPEAKER_01]: Versus if they did it the best possible way of
[SPEAKER_01]: seizure.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a very different study.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then you're saying, well, maybe both vaccines are not safe, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And they don't have to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we don't have that kind of research for a lot of these vaccines.
[SPEAKER_01]: And anybody that says that they do is lying because they're just making that up, because it's not true.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't have those studies for safety for the kid vaccines on the market.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are placebo control trials on some of the vaccines that are not commonly used.
[SPEAKER_01]: Some of them have done post licensure, but nothing really before.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's really
[SPEAKER_01]: frustrating when you actually see that because we need to demand war when we're going forward if you're going to put a new vaccine on the market like they have to do safety testing like that you would have assumed it would have been down on the first place you would have assumed a hepatitis B vaccine given to newborn baby would have been studied hundreds of thousands of kids against the saline placebo followed for five or ten years before you're giving it to newborn baby.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I thought the research rich show they studied at 147 kids for five days for safety.
[SPEAKER_01]: How was that good enough like that that's not anti-vaccine or anti science that's like I don't want to give my newborn a shot unless it's been studied to actually be safe and protect them long-term?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I would actually argue that it's very proscience because you're asking a higher quality of science to be performed in order to be convinced.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly, and that's what I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not anti-science, and it's quite so crazy that kind of words people use like anti-science or anti-vaxxing, those words don't even make sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, most people that are called anti-vaxxing are actually the ones that want more science.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the parents that are calling to do the safety test and people are like, oh, no, we don't need to.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're just safe.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, well, if you look at the research, you very clearly, very quickly, see that they're big gaping holes in the research.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so there is,
[SPEAKER_01]: a great need to do the best kind of safety testing, which is vaccine to kids, versus unvaccinated kids, following them forward to see what we get.
[SPEAKER_01]: Doing an epidemiologic study is a great, you can get lots of great information from them, but ultimately it's very biased and the research tends to be someone who's pro-vaccine, finds something pro-vaccine, someone who's anti-vaccine, who's anti-vaccine in terms of their conclusions, and then
[SPEAKER_01]: you know that that's how it is or anyone that finds something against a vaccine in terms of its safety, it doesn't ever come out or that person loses their career.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's a very biased world of research and ultimately we're at a place where I think we just need to get the best kind of research that there is and that's a prospective trial and it's never been done.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's never been done once.
[SPEAKER_01]: So to say that vaccines don't cause autism or vaccines couldn't cause long term issues, the correct answer is we don't know because we never actually started
[SPEAKER_01]: officially but we can't say anything we we need to do the research that's appropriate and when you have hundreds of thousands of parents saying my kid got a vaccine and had a really bad reaction and the next day they were very different or i blame this on whatever happened with my kid that should be enough for us to say look there are a lot of parents i think this we should study it they could be wrong but uh it we want to get people confidence to do more vaccines we should listen to these people instead of dismissing them
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Totally agree.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think one of those studies, which needs to be done more, and I think a lot of people agree, which is the idea that, you know, these kids or babies are literally getting multiple doses and multiple vaccines at once or in a very short period of time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so even that the sort of low quality individual studies that are done.
[SPEAKER_00]: like, and then we're stacking vaccine on top of vaccine and putting them all in the same vile, and that then leads to the parents who was saying, like, was this day that this happened, you know, we had four vaccines or five vaccines or, you know, after the first year we'd had 50 of them or whatever it is now, the number gets so high, but that idea that you can have multiple medicines and the risk, we don't even consider that the risk could be multiple times,
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, well, I mean, that again goes back to just common basic sense, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Everything that we look at basically in medicine, it's like a dose, like the more of it that you have, the more risk there is.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you drink a little bit of lead, it's not good for you, but you probably be okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: You drink a lot of lead, you're going to die, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we know these things, so I don't see why with a vaccine that mentality isn't similar, like maybe one is okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe two is okay, maybe four is not okay for everybody, maybe ten is less okay for more people.
[SPEAKER_01]: we have to be able to ask that question because if we don't then we're going to have one vaccine file with 300 things in it and we're never going to study if that's okay and then every kid's just going to have a problem after they get it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that can't be what we do when we're moving forward in science.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have to say,
[SPEAKER_01]: is there a point where it's too much?
[SPEAKER_01]: If we're doing more, is that not necessarily better, it's not just better to do more.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not always the case.
[SPEAKER_01]: It may be okay to do five or six.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe what we're doing is totally fine and people are worried about nothing, but it's not unreasonable to say, well, we're doing six vaccines on one day.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that too many?
[SPEAKER_01]: What about if we did eight?
[SPEAKER_01]: What about if we did ten?
[SPEAKER_01]: Would we have fewer side effects if we did four instead of six?
[SPEAKER_01]: Not every study has to be about not doing vaccines, but maybe you do a study between six vaccines on one day and two.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, whoa, on two, with two vaccines, you have way fewer side effects.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean you don't want people to get vaccines, but you want them to do it the safest possible.
[SPEAKER_01]: But right now, it's just do more.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's always do more.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's always it's fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: The combination doesn't matter, whichever one you want to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: All you want to do this one, you could do the other one.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't really make any difference.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mix a match.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is not how anything else is in the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: Totally, and it's probably goes back to the 1986 scenario where these companies got legal immunity and I feel like, I mean, they've had legal immunity through different periods of history.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would encourage anybody that's, you know,
[SPEAKER_00]: open to this listing to this world or information or exploring it to look into literally the 1700s, 1800s, like it's so much went on then, but I'm curious as well with everything we're talking about and you've mentioned it a couple of times, but like where are you at with the autism conversation?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I know that's huge in the media right now about what's causing autism and vaccines and aluminium and the other ingredients in there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Where are you at with your perspectives on that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that, I mean, the first part that I think is an issue with that conversation in general is that there isn't an acknowledgement that it's happening more a lot of people still say, oh, we're just better at diagnosing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's insane.
[SPEAKER_01]: I, I think, look, we're certainly better at diagnosing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's certainly part of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no question about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we're talking about a lot more people are interested in it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So so there there certainly is a much more diagnosis.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's the true, but
[SPEAKER_01]: it's just happening way more.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you look around and it's very obvious to anybody who takes care of kids or works with kids in California.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's one in 12.5, boys.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now have autism.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't look around in adults and see one in 15 adults with autism.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's just a stupid thing to say.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not true.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's happening a lot more so the question is why.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we don't know
[SPEAKER_01]: Why?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we know some of the things, but I don't think we have a very good understanding of it and when it comes to vaccines I think the answer is we don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think but people have concerns around it But if you look at the research, it hasn't really been studied appropriately The research is heavily based upon MMR Musilbom Surbella and Thai Marisol the ingredient with mercury was not even in the vaccines anymore So it's really just about MMR and not all the rest of the vaccines
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's impossible to know, you have to study those things.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to study vaccinated versus unvaccinated kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to study all the vaccines.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to look at the patterns to see if you notice an increased risk.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there are some studies, not the best studies that show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe some of those CECN, there are other studies that don't show it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But really, you haven't studied vaccinated versus unvaccinated kids in any of those studies.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when you say something so definitive, like, oh, it's been debunked.
[SPEAKER_01]: We know that vaccines don't cause that to some less insane.
[SPEAKER_01]: You look at the research and, like,
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not like all four vaccines causatism but I think that like you look at the research and it's so clearly obvious that you can say debunked or that the science is set over that the science is so strong we barely haven't done it at all and the right research hasn't been done at all yet to answer this question and that's either deliberate because
[SPEAKER_01]: people know and they don't want to do it or for whatever reason there's just been a pushback or people are just so sure that it isn't causing it, they don't do the research, I don't know, but I mean, don't even have massive database studies, which exists that you could just as a statistician run any day to look at vaccinated versus I'm back saying kids for 20 years, but you don't even have those studies.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's really pretty insane that we say that we know when we just don't.
[SPEAKER_01]: We just need we need to do those research in that study, those studies.
[SPEAKER_00]: yet totally agree as you said that um being in denial of it happening it may be think of like a similar cancer example of of saying like oh we're just better at diagnosing cancer numbers haven't gone up and it's like oh my god they've catastrophically gone up and it's so obvious
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, anybody who's actually in the field knows that it's obvious there are certainly individuals in the autism community where they maybe they weren't diagnosed as a kid, so then they're like, I don't know, I think like sensitive to it and they're like, well, I wasn't diagnosed as a kid, and that's just why I'm like, now what's going to happen?
[SPEAKER_01]: going on there.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's I think there's a lot of a lot more diagnosis of more mild autism or more mild on the spectrum, but I think when you're talking about severe autism, the kids that have severe symptoms that have a lot of trouble with their daily functions that have severe communication issues, and that is so much higher than I ever was.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was a very small percentage.
[SPEAKER_01]: 50 years ago, very few kids, and now it's a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like 25, 30% and society is just not going to be able to manage that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the most of those kids just don't ever function on their own.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't leave their home, don't get a job.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's not a system set up for that many kids in 20 years from now to be fully dependent on a system.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have to figure out,
[SPEAKER_01]: for the kids where it is some sort of environmental trigger.
[SPEAKER_01]: What is it, is it what we're doing, is it what we're eating, is it something to do with vaccines, something to do with a toxin, and whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what the answer is, but we need to start figuring this out, because just to say it's just genetic, it doesn't work for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think genetics are certainly a part of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no question we're finding genetic markers, but I think it's more than one thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think genetics plays a part, and then our environment kind of pushes you over the edge.
[SPEAKER_01]: and some people are probably more susceptible to it with their genetics, but I think it's not just genetics, it's a mixture of those things, but there's something or many things that are pushing gets over the edge into the diagnosis of autism, especially severe autism.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I agree.
[SPEAKER_00]: And sort of not negating everything you've just said in regards to the physicality and the biology, but I would also say socially two things.
[SPEAKER_00]: One, we seem to have the victim Olympics these days and people can't wait to get their label to justify who they are.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the second thing is natural variation in psychological identity and behavior and expression.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think we're also trying to squish more people
[SPEAKER_00]: this I don't know like carbon copy of one another as well and it's and once upon a time somebody who was a little bit weird a little bit strange had just amazing skills in a net a different area you know whereas I think where socially a little bit sort of the second that somebody isn't perfectly conforming to the way that society functions there it's like oh quick give them a medical label
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's why I think we're much quicker to give a label.
[SPEAKER_01]: We like to label everything now.
[SPEAKER_01]: We want to label our viruses, our COVID, our RSV, want to label our, you know, idiosync, idiosyncrasies, and that's fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know, getting on the label, having a diagnosis of autism, it may be helpful and supportive, especially, you know, first individuals who need that kind of support.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's great.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that that is the part of autism that has been under diagnosed for generations and in probably is a lot more diagnosed now, but I think that for a lot of those, especially the adults, those are fully functioning adults, but they're not the kind of autism that generally people are talking about, the kids are having severe issues, the families are having severe issues, that that's not the same.
[SPEAKER_01]: thing, I mean, it's the same diagnosis, but it's such a wide spectrum and their their individuals without to them that are like, have super skills and they're like brilliant and and super while functioning.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think like, both people are not talking about those kids, you know, they're talking about the other the other end.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think if you're fully happy and don't need support, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's wonderful.
[SPEAKER_01]: But there are a lot of kids that that do, and I think that for most health practitioners, that's the group that we're talking about is the ones that need full support and the families that need full support and the ones that say,
[SPEAKER_01]: Two years old, then acting totally normally, you know, air quotes normally, and reading, and smiling, and laughing, and running, and they went into the doctor, and got this thing, or, you know, they were normal this day, and the next day they weren't, and they couldn't read anymore the neck, I contact and they couldn't communicate.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those are the kids that we need to figure out what's going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if a vaccine did it to them or some other environmental trigger, or whatever it is, that's what we have to figure out.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not to shame anybody for their brain type or the way that they think.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's the kids that are injured from a thing that we're doing in our environment.
[SPEAKER_01]: If that's happening we should be figuring it out and there are hundreds of thousands of millions of parents that do feel that so I think it they deserve to be heard and they deserve for that to be researched as much as possible because ultimately
[SPEAKER_01]: we should try to figure that out so we can change that moving forward if there's some part of autism or any condition whatever, cancer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do we want to say, oh, it's just cancer's a spectrum?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, we want to prevent it if we can.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you can prevent your colon cancer, if you can figure out what my cousin, of course you want to prevent it.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you want to prevent a serious brain inflammation from somebody, yes, of course you want to prevent that.
[SPEAKER_01]: For those kids that we can, for those kids that it's possible to be done if it's possible to be done.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I agree.
[SPEAKER_00]: With them, I guess anybody listening, whether they're adults, whether they've got children, what are the questions or communication tools that you would like people to be equipped with when they go into the doctor's office?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think the first thing is just to be aware that it's okay to ask questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that...
[SPEAKER_01]: We've moved into a place where it's almost not okay to ask questions of your doctor anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people are just dismissing patients.
[SPEAKER_01]: They ask questions about vaccines.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're thinking they're woo woo.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, we can't do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to be comfortable, especially if you are holistic minded, or want to do anything outside of the regular schedule.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to be okay asking those questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you should try to ask them early if you can.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're interviewing practices, try to ask questions of those doctors.
[SPEAKER_01]: See if they're open to you doing a slower schedule.
[SPEAKER_01]: See if they're open to doing something else.
[SPEAKER_01]: you have to be okay doing that because I think the more the people are asking these questions, the more the doctors can mail the force to answer them and then the more that the conversation's going to be had and ultimately that's going to lead to a much better place where we can find some sort of middle ground because ultimately everybody wants healthy kids on everybody agrees and how to get there but we have to have these conversations and we need we need doctors to stop taking their heels in so much and to start listening a little bit and and hearing the
[SPEAKER_01]: acknowledging the gaps in the research and then saying, well, here's what we know, I believe in fact, seeds.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you should do it, but ultimately, you should choose what's right for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we'd be in a much better place if we can kind of move more back to education unless to forcing people to do stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, yeah, I like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think as well with the doctors digging their heels in, we've got a bit of a hangover maybe of the days where doctors were like the most superior beings to walk the earth.
[SPEAKER_00]: Socially speaking, and it's like the doctor's super intelligent, they know everything, don't question them, they're a doctor, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: And even now when you say somebody's a doctor, people are like, oh, okay, like, you know, that's that's pretty legit and so I'm hoping that that is starting to break a little bit so that we can just be two humans in an office having a conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it's breaking because of the internet because people can look stuff up now.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, even if you don't know what you're talking about, you can still Google it and you can still get some pretty good information.
[SPEAKER_01]: And obviously, that's not the same thing that's going to med school, but the access to information is there where it wasn't before.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, before if you wanted to figure out what was going on, you'd have to go to the library and look it up, figure out what you should look up, read about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: People weren't doing that, but now you can be like, all right, here's a picture of my rash.
[SPEAKER_01]: What is this, you know, chat to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he could give you six answers, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so the information is a little more available for you to be able to have a conversation with a practitioner and put you more on their level.
[SPEAKER_01]: And ultimately, the technology's getting so good.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's sometimes the technology's right and the doctor's wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's like, it's really hard because there's so much information out there and you sit there has a doctor and you're like, well,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, obviously, if you're humble, you don't know everything, but you realize that these technologies can look at the self-aster, can think about more things, think about things you never even heard of.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it does, I think, put you on a little bit more even playing field where
[SPEAKER_01]: I think if the profession doesn't get a little bit more humble, it's going to get replaced.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that ultimately right now, there's still this pushback of like, I know better.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't matter what you say, it doesn't matter what the internet says.
[SPEAKER_01]: These people are all in the anti-vaxxers and they're crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're not listening to the concerns.
[SPEAKER_01]: and then you're getting more pushback and that's what we're seeing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there were the highest rates of unvaccinated kids, the highest rates of exemptions, the highest rates of people that are hesitant, you know, it's like 50% plus now are saying, they don't trust the government.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't trust the regular schedule.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not sure they're going to do the regular schedule.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that's very high compared to what it used to be.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm full people listening that's like jell's awesome.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to get more of him in my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: Where can they find you online?
[SPEAKER_01]: So the best places would be at Dr. Joel Gator on Instagram or ex and the book between a shot in a hard place and get on Amazon or the shotbook.com
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, fantastic.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll put those links down in the show notes below.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you're listening and you want more of this information and you want to inform yourself or just be willing to have more difficult conversations, hopefully we have enough of those difficult conversations that they stop becoming difficult, then scroll down and click the link and jump into Joel's work.
[SPEAKER_00]: So before we finish, we're going to do a little real talk segment.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to go back and forth pretty quickly and get to know Joel a bit better.
[SPEAKER_00]: So are you cool with that Joel?
[SPEAKER_00]: Cool, all of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So question one.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's something that you believe now that made you laugh 10 years ago?
[SPEAKER_01]: Something that I believe now.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think I would have laughed 10 years ago about just like the healthy woo woo world.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like all the natural stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got the very normal life kind of like what it sounds like for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And now, you know, almost anything that's in that woo woo world.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like a
[SPEAKER_01]: messes or believe in it like, I don't know, energy matters and or something like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, well, you know, we are kind of all energy.
[SPEAKER_01]: So maybe maybe there's something to it.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's one habit that you'd be embarrassed to admit that you still have.
[SPEAKER_01]: One habit for me, I think it's just watching too much TV sometimes.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like, and I really try to not to limit my screen time, but sometimes it's like so crazy in life that just watching screens sometimes you much have to be like, got to get off my phone.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's one supplement habit or wellness trend that you think is totally overhyped?
[SPEAKER_01]: Overhyped.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that just supplements in general in terms of like one size fits all.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I see that so much in my practice is kind of giving everybody the same long list of supplements or giving them by the same kind of medicines.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we need individualized medicine so I think just doing things the same for everybody's way overhyped.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is going to be an interesting question.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's a rabbit hole topic that you think more people should explore?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we talked about vaccines.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that, but I mean, if we're not going to say vaccines, then I think at one of the weirdest rabbit hole conversations that I never thought was a rabbit hole with circumcision, I learned that throughout my days as a pediatrician that actually circumcision, there's a lot more people that are a lot angry about it that it's quite the rabbit hole that you wouldn't even think was.
[SPEAKER_00]: fascinating.
[SPEAKER_00]: In 20 years from now, what do you want to be known for?
[SPEAKER_01]: I would hope to be known for in 20 years just being an advocate for kids and being a part of policy change and trying to help push forward a better healthier future for my kids and everyone's then then where we are today.
[SPEAKER_00]: And finally, if everything you've ever said was deleted, what's one sentence that you
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say, you know, it's not woo woo for asking questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we're all in this together.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we have to take our health back into our own hands, and when we can do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Fantastic.
[SPEAKER_01]: Jell, thanks for being on the show, man.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Vladimir.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're welcome.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, thanks for listening to the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you enjoyed this episode or learned anything at all, the gift of your five-star rating would be incredibly helpful.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You can do it below each episode on Spotify, every time an episode comes out.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Scroll to the bottom, hit write a review, share your amazing feedback and then hit send.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, and by the way, I have a short disclaimer as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just wanted to quickly remind you that the information provided on this podcast is for general informational purposes only.
[SPEAKER_00]: While we strive to bring you accurate and up-to-date content, it's important to note that a lot of this is mixed with opinions, stories, and ideas not supported by mainstream science or medicine.
[SPEAKER_00]: Any advice or suggestions should not be considered a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment.
[SPEAKER_00]: Always consult a healthcare provider before making any decisions about the health and wellness of you and your family.
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember to, that what works for one person may not work for another.
[SPEAKER_00]: And just as we promote on the show, each person is responsible for their own health decisions.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for tuning into the Real Weightless Coach podcast, and now, the next episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here it is!