[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the intentional fatherhood podcast where we explore what it means to live on purpose as a father and how legacy starts at home.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Justin Whitmorely, and I'm Brooke Moser, we'll be your hosts, and we desire to bring biblical hope and practical hope.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening.
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome back to the intentional fatherhood podcast, Justin and I here today wanting to jump into yet another episode on this idea of calling vocation work.
[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the things I really am looking forward to about today's topic is talking about something that affects all of us because we are all leaders.
[SPEAKER_00]: Father's or leaders men
[SPEAKER_00]: even biblically have a mantle of leadership that they're called to and we want to talk about what that looks like I want to talk about the pitfalls.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to talk about unhealthy leadership which creates unhealthy cultures, unhealthy fathers that create unhealthy families.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, all of that stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I also think we're very big on the idea of letting you know how helpful it is to rate subscribe and leave comments.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Justin, would you tell our brothers and sisters here?
[SPEAKER_00]: Why that matter?
[SPEAKER_00]: Man, how they can help us.
[SPEAKER_01]: Man, I would love to tell you all.
[SPEAKER_01]: Look.
[SPEAKER_01]: we're in an episode on leadership in a season on work in a podcast on fatherhood.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you're not tracking, then you're not tracking, okay?
[SPEAKER_01]: Mostly by the Lord's Providence, but partly by our own fumbling and design, we put together a program for you season one, is about all these tension points of fatherhood.
[SPEAKER_01]: Season two is about this
[SPEAKER_01]: journey through fatherhood.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you have a map in season one.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have like a schedule in season two.
[SPEAKER_01]: And starting with season three, we're jumping into all the tension points of fatherhood.
[SPEAKER_01]: Deep dives this whole season is on work.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we've talked about why work is good.
[SPEAKER_01]: We talked about calling.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've talked about ambition ambition and besetting sends and idolatry.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now we're in our like practical run of five episodes on time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Money.
[SPEAKER_01]: leadership, spiritual disciplines, family, all this stuff in relation to work.
[SPEAKER_00]: And my point is guys, how are you going to follow along with all that if you haven't subscribed?
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm talking about you subscribed.
[SPEAKER_01]: This comes to you automatically.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you subscribe, this also helps the ratings.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it gets recommended to other people.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you like, it does the same thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is how you get a community of men listening to this, which is what we want.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't want you listening alone.
[SPEAKER_01]: because we don't want you fathering alone.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't want you working alone.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't want you living alone.
[SPEAKER_01]: We want you doing this in community.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you like and subscribe in order to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also, you should email us a short voice memo.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you have a question or a deal, state your questions in the form of a question.
[SPEAKER_00]: not statement.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the 60s I could voice about.
[SPEAKER_01]: Your name, where you're from, and a question, we answer them, you've heard it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We do it on the podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll do it with this one.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know you guys have questions about work.
[SPEAKER_01]: And lastly, for all the mother's listening, ladies, we so appreciate you.
[SPEAKER_01]: We also want you to send this to your husband because we want to talk to him.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're a wife listening,
[SPEAKER_01]: Send it to your husband, so we can talk to him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, subscribe, comment.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was a dive.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was pretty good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, let me also say it's a way to stay informed because we had now so a lot of stuff on the podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when you subscribe, you're the first stuff in events that we're doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Things like our amazing conference we're doing and are fostered in this November 20, 26.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, awesome dude.
[SPEAKER_00]: Austin Texas is going to be it's going to be lit.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you have not got tickets get tickets for that a lot of a lot of the guys who are listening to this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, our leaders and their Workplaces not all them, but we we met a lot of you that came in the intentional father had conference a lot of your entrepreneurs absolutely a lot of your leading divisions leading teams some of your leading your own companies and all of you
[SPEAKER_01]: Whether or not you're doing that at work, like I think of myself 10 years ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a new Like second or third year associated international law firm.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not leading anybody at work.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm leading a young family and I'm responsible for leading myself into being the type of person who will eventually lead colleagues.
[SPEAKER_01]: So whether or not you are in, you're leading your own company or whether or not you're in a, you know, man level management role or you're, you're new, you need to think about how you as a man are leading yourself, your family, and then in turn, your workplace.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is a big one.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love everything you just set up and thank you for that nuance because I, just to, as we jump in, I want to just
[SPEAKER_00]: Most people don't struggle to become leaders.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of people that actually can become leaders with a handful of pretty easy skillset.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the bigger challenge is that a lot of people don't know how to become the type of person that leadership requires.
[SPEAKER_00]: Leadership requires you to be a type of person if it's gonna be healthy, if it's gonna grow and it's gonna be something that is a gift to others.
[SPEAKER_01]: make that distinction for me again.
[SPEAKER_00]: Many people are not going to struggle to become leaders.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of things you can do to just become a leader better said like to be to be in a position of leadership.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, okay, so not that hard to get to a position of leadership.
[SPEAKER_00]: Most people struggle to become the type of person that leadership requires.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can I kind of put that in another way?
[SPEAKER_01]: So you can do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, that was just my way.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not that hard to get the name of a leader, but it's hard to be a good one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it's hard to be the kind of person that can sustain leadership, and it actually be a gift not a burden.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of people that isn't, isn't true leadership, a blessing.
[SPEAKER_01]: by definition, like real leadership is a blessing to the people who are being led.
[SPEAKER_01]: Fake leadership, bad leadership, false leadership is a burden to the people who are being led.
[SPEAKER_00]: True, false.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, true.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you just, I thought maybe you would.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, I'm just saying, no, no, no, you're absolutely, it's a burden to the people that are being led by that leader.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: You are you disagree we can disagree in real time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm absolutely not disagreeing that was the correct use of real time Thank you first for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh Not knock who's your shut up, please.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's move on We're agreeing on the obvious point.
[SPEAKER_01]: This true leadership But is a blessing to those who are led But a lot of people are in roles as leaders call themselves leaders and imagine themselves of leaders and are recognized as leaders
[SPEAKER_01]: and they are a burden to the people who are being led because they're not actually leading.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, because it's more about them.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're domineering.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's more about them than it is the people they serve.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Our leadership is servant-based.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like when we remember we're looking to our model who is Jesus, servant leadership is the only type of leadership that doesn't destroy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when we think about all of life and you think about this topic of leadership,
[SPEAKER_00]: Like to boil it down the one word that makes the most sense, I really feel like we should even take the word leadership out because it's confusing.
[SPEAKER_00]: The word that you need to think is servant or servanthood.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what leadership is.
[SPEAKER_00]: At the end of the day, a lot of people think leadership is influence.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's having the right vision, it's being in charge, it's getting results.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what we think leadership is.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's actually being responsible for people, people that are in your care, stewardship of trust.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you've been given trust by an organization by a board, by people giving you money or buying something from you depending on your situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you have trust of other people.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you have to stewards that trust we are talking about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Formation of others.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're forming others through the environment that you've set up.
[SPEAKER_00]: The culture you've set up.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then it's service over self, that's what leadership actually is, and why I'm highlighting that and trying to be really clear about that is because it is so easy for us to use this word leadership and to think it means one thing having, you know, all these vision hacks influence vision being in charge.
[SPEAKER_00]: You got to get the results because you're the leader, but it is not that at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I've actually heard people pick a bung with this recently.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, tell me more.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what area of
[SPEAKER_01]: of the internet, this is in the problem with the internet as it gives voice to things that really aren't truth.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, well, definitely untrue, but sometimes they're not really like, you know, one guy blogging or posting or tweeting can go a little bit viral and you're wanting to people actually think this, but I remember reading some article that was just sort of like, it's actually picking on Tim Keller for over emphasizing servant leadership.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, what's the viewpoint here?
[SPEAKER_01]: So maybe this is not a thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I haven't heard anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think it's worth stepping on that I can't see another read, biblically, of what leadership is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Besides what you said, it's stewardship of the people that God has given you, which means self,
[SPEAKER_01]: sacrificial servanthood for their good that that is leadership in sometimes that looks like ultimate manly mass healing courage of you know David being the first out on the battlefield of his mighty men because he's willing to put himself in harm's way for the good of his people yes
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes that looks like Jesus washing feet, but a domestic helping on your knees, lowly, dirty roll, but both of these things, whether it's hypermasculine or just very muted and like understated, we would agree and put our foot down.
[SPEAKER_01]: servant leadership is true leadership.
[SPEAKER_01]: The true leadership is for the people you're leaving.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're responsible for them.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're stewarding them.
[SPEAKER_01]: They are not yours.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I'm close.
[SPEAKER_00]: But why this is so important to understand is because if we don't, we have to understand that there is a misunderstanding around what leadership is.
[SPEAKER_00]: So first, if we're going to talk about this, we need to be clear about what it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not about the vision.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not about getting results,
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, you do need to be responsible.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, you'll probably have some influence.
[SPEAKER_00]: You do need to have some vision, but it all starts with you having responsibility for people, stewardship of trust, as we're talking about.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you don't lead a role you lead people.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you don't lead a role you lead people.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you don't lead people.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't lead people.
[UNKNOWN]: You don't lead people.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I go into my organization and I'm trying to lead a role and trying to help everybody make my life and my vision come about solely, I'm missing it.
[SPEAKER_00]: A leader has to be able to walk into a room and be able to not only like love and serve the people, but let the best idea win, which means you have to like be open, then your idea might not be the best.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not even trying, I don't actually know any of this.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not pushing my mind.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know where I should have called you up.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then it's also being willing to give credit, even when, what's a good way to say it?
[SPEAKER_00]: There's times when I know I have a really good idea.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's somebody that has, you know, kind of taken that idea and made it better.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in that moment when they're talking about it and almost like taking it on like a few years as a leader, it's actually really important to let that happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: You want to you want to give as much, you want to give as much credit and praise away as you can.
[SPEAKER_00]: You want to do as much as you can to elevate those in the room.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what but that's what I'm talking is so counter to what I know many of us feel and I for many years felt to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can we set up the facts here before we before we get into our practicals and what to do?
[SPEAKER_01]: I actually think it's some people, maybe the first episode they're ever tuning into.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, Brooke, you lead an organization.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I lead an organization.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe just, let's define our roles really quick.
[SPEAKER_01]: So people know where we're coming from.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that's a great idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Justin, you don't have many good ideas today.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm working.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to give you credit.
[SPEAKER_00]: I admit that's a pretty good one.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I get a lot of good ideas.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so yes, I lead intentional, which is a non-profit, and we exist to help family, spiritual formation of the family, intentional fatherhood is one of the things that we do.
[SPEAKER_00]: We do intentional motherhood and marriage and parenting, multiple podcasts and events all over the country and lots of different things, lots of moving parts and that we're growing a lot right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: We see you guys about 15 people on your team.
[SPEAKER_00]: about 15 people on the team.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm the president by title a couple million dollar budget a year.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And at the end of the day, you know, one other detail to note is we actually have a lot of our teams split up between we live in Bendorgen, you live in Richmond, Virginia.
[SPEAKER_00]: But we live in Bendorgen and then some of our teams in Nashville.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some of our team is in Boise, Idaho.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some of our team is in Santa Rosa,
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're split up so there's a remote element to what we do and then there's an in person element when we do different events and so there's new wants is there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, sure, but that's yeah, that's what I do.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's good and by the way, I'm just going I'm saying this out of the genuine is at my heart.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I'm excited to pick your brain on leading your team because I've witnessed your leadership of your team.
[SPEAKER_01]: as we do conferences together.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks, man.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I've told you this before, I was so impressed.
[SPEAKER_01]: Watching, I was so impressed watching you, not just execute really well with your team, but I could tell the relationships on your team were healthy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I could tell you had an actually incredible way of saying this is not good enough yet without its sounding.
[SPEAKER_01]: mean or domineering.
[SPEAKER_01]: I heard you say things like, hey, details matter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Excellence matters.
[SPEAKER_01]: This needs to be, I was just, I was impressed.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm excited to pick your brand on this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's gone.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're sitting in Richard Virginia in the basement of my law office.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I now have two areas of my life where I am a leader outside my family.
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, we lead in our family, but
[SPEAKER_01]: I, in the CEO of a vote of legal, yes, my law firm, we have grown tremendously in the past year, really.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're about 20 people now, about 15 lawyers.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have partners who are equally yoked with me and running this firm.
[SPEAKER_01]: However, I have the title of CEO.
[SPEAKER_01]: We also have a title of a managing partner who's more operations.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have a leadership team.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I am technically CEO sort of responsible for vision leadership.
[SPEAKER_01]: culture, leadership, to a certain extent, you know, setting the direction of where we're going, how it feels to get there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I share with our managing partner financial leadership.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we take on together saying, what is the budget, what are our goals?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are we hitting our metrics?
[SPEAKER_01]: What are we paying hiring, firing, stuff like that?
[SPEAKER_01]: So, um,
[SPEAKER_01]: But I've also, I've realized now in my life of writing, which is sort of my second-side occupation, that the longer I've done it, and I've now, I'm about five books in, I'm realizing as a writer, you actually,
[SPEAKER_01]: You kind of manage a team of your publisher and the marketing and the publicity arm, the editing process.
[SPEAKER_01]: I realized early on that I thought of it as I was performing a job for my publisher.
[SPEAKER_01]: They would tell me what to do and over the past couple of books, I realized, oh, that?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's actually not the best way to think of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: The best way to think of it is that I'm managing my publisher to put out an excellent book, and I don't mean that to put out a role of like I'm higher than them, but realizing that it's my, you got to own baby.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is my art.
[SPEAKER_01]: You care man.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I love, I'm in partnership with Zonovan.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love Zonovan.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love my agent, Don, I love my editor right now, web or the marketing person that I'm working with Katie, they just great.
[SPEAKER_01]: but I realized I need to see them as a team to manage and the more that I see that the better I do.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they'll know if they hear this, like the last I see that the worst we all do because somebody's got to take responsibility for it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So those are the two areas of leadership responsibility in my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that you pause just to do that because yeah, because that's the the context from which we're speaking so we are I mean in in both of our careers in different ways I have more of a ministry background as a pastor for almost 18 years before doing this and so I think it is important and I had various roles of leadership at different moments in different staff sizes and roles all sorts so.
[SPEAKER_00]: My journey has been all over the place and and all been I think really really helpful in the leadership journey of Understand what it means to lead people, but we're on the ground like in real time figuring this out Yeah, and doing this and and actually responsible and at the end of the day everyone is looking to you on your team And I know everyone is looking to me at in one sense or another and of course We have a board and we have I have an executive team all that but it's like
[SPEAKER_00]: they're going to go, but what do you want to do?
[SPEAKER_00]: And we need to make sure that we're aligned together.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's just a weighted responsibility that just needs to be noted and it's a kind of leadership within work that obviously goes into home and all that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I think it's a super important note.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to let you get right back to what you're saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think one of the unnoticed aspects of leadership is that even when the book does not stop with you technically on this issue, like maybe this is the board's question, and maybe this is my partnerships, my partner's question, and maybe this is like my associate or my law partner, like, you know, if this is their problem to solve with the client, whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everybody's always watching you as a leader.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're sort of, they're watching your reaction.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're wondering how you would deal with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're watching your temperament.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think a huge part of leading an organization well and leading your family well is being the sort of non-anxious presence that calls people higher without stressing them out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a theory.
[SPEAKER_01]: But we'll come back to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You keep going with what you were.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's not a theory.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think a leader is supposed to look at chaos in the face and say, we're going to be okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Even if you don't know how you're going to be okay, you're not to solve the problem in the moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're to be a steady beacon of stability and confidence in God's strength, not your own.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And even if it's not going to all be okay to have a steadiness of calm, gives a gift to your people, that's important.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, and it's really important.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you have to absorb chaos and release blessing.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a lot of what it leadership, I think.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can I give you an example of this?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious if you're one way that I've been trying to do this for you, so with my partners is we look at our P&L every single month and we sort of collectively stress about, are we making the collections we thought we were going to make?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are we going to hit the budget that we thought we were going to make?
[SPEAKER_01]: And, um,
[SPEAKER_01]: I think appropriately, like I'm glad I have law partners who worry about this in one sense is that they're in tune to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: If we don't hit our marks, we're not a sustainable enterprise, we can't keep our employees.
[SPEAKER_01]: But one of the ways I just try to put this into practice is when I see, like, we're missing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to always call my partners attention to, hey.
[SPEAKER_01]: In growth you have up months and you have down months, but are we doing the right things that's creating a trajectory of growth and I see this in my family I see this on work teams, but I just seen it in this area this month where we're trying to say we could stress about right now, what's going on in these particulars, but I just also want to be a non anxious presence that's saying, are we headed in the right direction.
[SPEAKER_01]: because we're headed in the right direction.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can deal with ups and downs in different months, financially.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the advice, the converse is also true.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't want to celebrate too much in up month.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And realize it, but we're actually headed in the wrong direction.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's just one thing I've been learning about that non-exist presence of leadership is this balance of being in the details.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you understand what is
[SPEAKER_01]: worrying your team, but being able to say what you just said and here's why we're going to be okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: If it's true, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it needs to be true.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if it's not being like here's what I'm going to do to try to ensure that we're going to be okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's where you're sacrificing.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're like, well, I'm going to kill my schedule this weekend because I need to make sure I buy
[SPEAKER_00]: comparing leadership to being a father is so perfect because I cannot think of a better example.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I want to be a good leader and I have a hard conversation with an employee, I think of what would I be saying if this was my son?
[SPEAKER_00]: What would I be saying if this was my daughter?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because my tone would change.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why do you love me?
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, because one, this concept has really helped me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it helps too.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have also realized it's not helpful to tell your employees that you're thinking
[SPEAKER_01]: I made the mistake last summer of being like, look, I'm going to treat you like I would my kid and I meant that to be like tender thinking of this as like I'm working with love and with with seriousness and I want you to develop and and what they heard understandably was I'm a child I'm a child and you're the father's like this is not going well.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, but I would just say like
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not something you say to them.
[SPEAKER_00]: It just creates a tenderness.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I'm going into an employee that's having a conversation and I'm thinking of it as my son, I have the best for him.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want the best for him.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want them to develop.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm telling him the hard thing because I know that even though it's hard for him to hear, it is the good and right thing for him to hear.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it is if he can receive it with the right heart and I can do it in a way that's receiving and doesn't stop him from hearing it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be a benefit because that's how leadership or authority works.
[SPEAKER_00]: we have to deliver it the right way, but they have to receive it the right way, but we can deliver that very terribly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're good at this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, I've watched you interact with your son.
[SPEAKER_01]: I actually channeled you this morning, Brooke, not kidding.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was, I had a correction I need to give one of my older sons this morning.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember thinking about how I watched you do it with your son.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll be non-specific.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was just like,
[SPEAKER_01]: You were just really clear with him at the same time of being kind.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like your voice wasn't raised.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like your nervous system was clearly an order.
[SPEAKER_01]: You were not raging, but you were like, you know, you know, this is not the way we would do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to do it this way.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is right, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just remember thinking that sort of clarity, combined with that sort of grace, was really good fatherly leadership.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think about this, both in my home, literally this morning, I was like, how would Brooke do this?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, God.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, really.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I also think about it with associates, employees, my law partners.
[SPEAKER_01]: That framework's helpful.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just want to admit, I am so new at this, you know, for most of my career, you know, I was spent almost five years being a missionary in China.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't leading a missionary team.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then I spent, you know, I've been a lawyer for over the last decade.
[SPEAKER_01]: But only, you know, about five of those years have been leading my own law firm and really that the beginning it was like a team of one to two people and it's grown now, you know, that's a company which is wanting to play is a leader.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and we plan on growing hopefully, you know, two seasons are now like work, you know, a law firm or four to you, but yeah, and then 60 and then 80 but I just don't have a ton of experience, but one of the things I'm learning is that.
[SPEAKER_01]: you have to say things a lot to people and that's a connection with with kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: You find yourself saying the same things to your children a lot and it's really good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like your your children should be able to put the record of their dad on in their head like yet dad would say this and that's not a bad thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're starting to memorize how you think about the world and particularly if you're saying it well and kindly right up.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, same with giving your employees vision, you need to state your company's values over and over and over and over and they should be like, yes, he always says that exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, they need to be able to say it how you would say it and and again, I'm learning this thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm realizing I need to say the same things to my employees a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: and very quickly in the moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I've made a goal with my direct partners in associates who basically report to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I laid our transactional group.
[SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of my law partners, they do law that I can't do civil litigation, fighting in courtrooms.
[SPEAKER_01]: We do a lot of employment and HR work like employee problems.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if you get to fire somebody or you're hiring somebody or you're wondering or you're complying with employment regulations, I got partners to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I lead our transactional group, so we do acquisitions of businesses, sales of businesses, partnership agreements, operating agreements.
[SPEAKER_01]: We do non-profit and contract work.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just going to be a flavor of like, so I'm trying to sell me on you right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sold on you, but I'm not using your firm no way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Conflict of interest for you to use.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I mean, I mean, I want to, I mean, one, two things, a vote of legal is new in that we only recently in the last year of new merge all these partners together.
[SPEAKER_01]: So people don't necessarily know what I'm talking about.
[SPEAKER_01]: Also, when people hear I'm a lawyer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Lots of times they imagine somebody arguing in the quarter.
[SPEAKER_01]: A murder trial in the courtroom.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, no, I, there's so many different times.
[SPEAKER_01]: I must business lawyer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I manage deals, which means companies are buying each other or major transaction, they call us, we help them negotiate it, write the contract.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm managing a team of people that helps do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when something goes right, I'm realizing say it right then.
[SPEAKER_01]: Tell them how good they did.
[SPEAKER_01]: Something goes wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is a hard part for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would do this with my kids, I'd be like, hey.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't turn your glove that way when when I think of the baseball, you can turn it this way like I'm teaching them how to play catch right and say right away like that's not right with my employees I realize I'm a little I don't want to hurt their feelings and sometimes I'm like I don't know just help them tell them what they did wrong and tell them right away in the moment yes with a smile on your face and I've been trying to get better at saying like one good thing you did on this project one thing you could approve on every time very quick feedback yes I think that helps
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm thinking how important that is and the kid framework isn't to meaning, you learn to lead in your home.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you are a good leader in your workspace, you are a good leader in your home.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now that doesn't mean that you're able to do everything all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: there's lines here.
[SPEAKER_00]: But as the point of leadership, I want to maybe steer us to the deeper issue of why people are bad leaders because I think this might help you identify if you are in a space.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, that's bad leadership.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then I want to talk about what good leadership is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I want to connect that to some people are leading great in their family but poorly in their office.
[SPEAKER_01]: Some people are leading great in their office and very poorly in their family
[SPEAKER_00]: there's positive development and there's negative development.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can learn a lot from reading leadership books.
[SPEAKER_00]: You will learn far more by being in a bad environment of leadership.
[SPEAKER_00]: Watch your bad later.
[SPEAKER_00]: What not to do?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what you made my negative development.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I mean.
[SPEAKER_00]: And negative, this concept is at minus a universal one.
[SPEAKER_00]: There is two types of development.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's more, but primarily it's positive development learning through positive experiences, reading, it's a good thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's negative development, which is equally,
[SPEAKER_00]: and it's development through learning what you would not want to experience, what you would not want to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think so much of my leadership journey has been purposefully trying to learn while having a whole crap ton of experiences where I'm like, oh, I don't want to ever do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to ever experience that.
[SPEAKER_00]: even the values that I know that I hold for intentional in our organization come from places of being mistreated or mishandled or are just even simply not thought like this just weren't thoughtful.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you're on the receiving end of that, even this is so dumb.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is really simple.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is so abnormally important to me to make sure our team has a Christmas bonus.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, when I say Christmas bonus, I mean, I don't mean anything crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just mean like, if you start a culture of giving your team, a Christmas bonus, even if it's small.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then one to your, you just take it away because the numbers weren't good enough and you don't really say much.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dude, have you not seen Chevy Chase Christmas vacation?
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: You've got to, you've got to, they're building a swimming pool right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, but I mean, there was, there's a moment in my situation like when you're on the receiving end of that, my gosh, like these, and this is silly, but there's also from that something silly all the way to like, that's not silly, but that's, no, it's actually really important.
[SPEAKER_00]: It communicates care, but it's all the way to something as, as important as, how you structure a meeting and letting people listen and what kind of leader you're going to be.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, I just want to say there's negative development, there's positive development.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you are in a hard situation, do not forget that it's teaching you and training you right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you will learn all the things of what you will never have on and do not think this is a waste.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not a waste.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: For impactful, for me to go through negative hard situations and leadership.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I know exactly that without even trying what kind of leader I do not want to be.
[SPEAKER_00]: Therefore, it's what kind of leader I want to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can I give two quick examples of this?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I just think multitudes of examples.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I hadn't even thought about this, but I so appreciate the years I spent in quote unquote big law for the way that it trained me.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was sort of a boot camp of while you're in.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you're treated about as badly as you are in boot camp.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't have to be that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I speak with charity because I really appreciate the law firm that developed me as a lawyer.
[SPEAKER_01]: But they are notoriously bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: big law firms.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're notoriously bad at really managing and developing people.
[SPEAKER_01]: And two of the negative development things that I learned were one, that law firm generally only spoke to me about my metrics.
[SPEAKER_01]: When we did an evaluation, it was generally about are you hitting your hours or no.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then two, it flips out of the same thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was no real
[SPEAKER_01]: development of like let me tell you how this works let me here's here's something that you should study here's something that you should learn so one of the things that I let me erase this I need probably one of them is important ways that I try to lead in our law firm now with lawyers is in light of that I was like oh okay
[SPEAKER_01]: When I talk to my associates, I talk to them a lot about, I want you to have a great life.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of my partners here at a Voda, I love how he says this.
[SPEAKER_01]: He says, we want everybody to be a better person by having worked here.
[SPEAKER_01]: You might pass through briefly, you might be a life or you might get fired or quit or move on to better opportunity, but everybody, we want everybody to be like, I'm a better person.
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things I tell people that work for me is, I want you to have a well-rounded life.
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you exercising, are you having meaningful time off?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you hitting your out like that's a part of the conversation because if you are living unpredictively you're living with a weight on your soul.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're not doing the work you've been given to do, you're not a healthy person.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I talk about it differently and too, you know, developing associates is not billable time.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for lawyers, that's a pain because like you're literally seeing your top line go down a little bit because I could
[SPEAKER_01]: And he could be too, but instead I'm meeting with this person and we're but we're losing like a thousand dollars right now by having a meeting of two people, but like I try to put that out of my mind and say, this is about our bottom line in the long run and this person's life in the long run, we got to develop, I got to just say like, yes, here's how I want you to think about writing an operating agreement like this is not billable, but here's what you should learn and so these are just like those came from negative development from seeing it not done.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I really like your thesis of like watch if you're in a bad environment watch to and let it shape you because it will.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, let me just give you I want to give four things of why people are bad leaders and again I want to say this because this might be you this might be what you're experiencing.
[SPEAKER_00]: You might be in a team in a dynamic or a church even right now church is a really notorious for this guys and I'm going to tell you this because I've been in a lot of church spaces and the more I find myself.
[SPEAKER_01]: knocking over all my books where you're talking to.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're saying churches are bad of this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have I have a I have thoughts on Christian leadership.
[SPEAKER_00]: I will that's my prime.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to come back to it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Keep going.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was my prime experience because you can get a lot of authority without a lot of accountability and it's really, really messy and so.
[SPEAKER_00]: really quick.
[SPEAKER_00]: Most leaders, most leadership failure is not competency.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's usually character.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let me just highlight this really quick.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of guys that are competent, but they don't have the character.
[SPEAKER_00]: Another way to say it is your charisma can get you there, but your character cannot keep you there.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you have that ability to get in on a stage and to say a lot of cool stuff and to be magnetic, but you don't have the character to support the life and so this will fizzle out eventually.
[SPEAKER_00]: This happens.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the rise that we see all the time of leadership failure.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's people that have skills and charisma and competency to get somewhere and their life can't sustain it and so they eventually implode.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's an important thing to see four quick things.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is that unhealed wounds?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a big part.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have all these wounds that have never been, you're leading from insecurity.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're needing validation.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's about you and your validation and you're not giving vision.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're just like, I need, I need to feel good about me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you're reactive and defensive.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's like, oh, you said something, you immediately respond.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, so unhealed wounds are one of the main reasons that there's a lot of people that are bad leaders.
[SPEAKER_00]: Your identity is built on performance.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's what we've talked about.
[SPEAKER_00]: Your work is your worth.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that's the most important thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: My work is my worth, the results.
[SPEAKER_01]: See episode three on the setting, send an ambition.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and your work is not your worth and then what you kind of just said about, you know, people become tools, not souls like you're looking at them like how can they get me to what I want.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, get me what I want, which is really there.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the inversion of gospel leadership because we're talking about Jesus lays down his life so that his followers.
[SPEAKER_01]: his people, his children can have life to the full, a leader will invert their life for the good of the people they're leading.
[SPEAKER_01]: So often we see what you're describing right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is people who use the people they're leading to make their life more full.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not leadership that is
[SPEAKER_00]: what insanity, insanity, it's manipulation, it's entitlement, it's a lot of it's evil, it's so painful and it's all over the place and so do you have those two two more unhealthy leadership looks like control instead of trust so this is like micromanaging, this is fear driven leadership, yeah, you're not a lot of room for failure because you are controlling instead of trusting,
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to say, some of the most powerful intense leaders are the weakest at having any sort of actual hard conversations one on one.
[SPEAKER_00]: They will send someone else to do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: They will be passive aggressive.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is absolutely the antithesis of what leads to scholarly men and leaders.
[SPEAKER_00]: They do the hard thing in a kind way.
[SPEAKER_00]: They have the hard conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't give it to the executive
[SPEAKER_00]: the other employee, you sit down with love and you be a man about it and you say, hey, here's the deal.
[SPEAKER_00]: This didn't go well.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't love how that meeting went.
[SPEAKER_00]: That felt weird to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I understand you probably didn't mean to have this response or whatever, but we got to work this through.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just want to underline what you're saying here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's so true.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen it just in the past six months at a voter.
[SPEAKER_01]: We will talk about something and we'll say, okay, who's going to talk to this
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've just noticed like, oh, um, of course I never want to do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: None of us do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but, but what you're saying is so true.
[SPEAKER_01]: A good leader, I think, and I'm, I'm efforting to do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Call me out a vote of team if you're, if I'm not doing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll say, I'll go have that conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: having the ability to have hard conversations is a mark of a mature man.
[SPEAKER_01]: You will talk to your wife about something that you know is not going to go well because it needs to be talked about.
[SPEAKER_01]: You'll address something that you kid that you need to talk about even though you're, oh, this is going to derail the whole evening.
[SPEAKER_01]: If not more, you'll talk to your employee because this is going to get awkward.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got to tell them that I broke that's really important advice.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad you said yeah well thank you but I really think it's one of the things I would say super important to me to note is I've been so hurt personally by people that didn't take responsibility for their role and pass it off to other people.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and it is so hurtful when you're in the receiving end of that you have to know and even though you have to deliver something hard When you do it in a spirit filled gracious way, this is why even the last episode had prayed through my calendar because I know when even hard conversations are coming
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, potentially with employees.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: But also to note, depending upon if this needs to be role appropriate because there's certain conversations on the team that I don't need to have depending upon the person's position and their authority or who they report to directly.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not having every hard conversation on the team that would be bizarre.
[SPEAKER_00]: But when it comes to those who are really actually in my care or it is mine to do,
[SPEAKER_00]: to avoid it is to give up or hand over or really just step away from your responsibility of leadership.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Doing the hard thing in the right way is what being a spirit-filled man at this moment looks like.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why I think people are right to talk about Pacificity or avoidance as, I guess, anti-masculine traits as in, you need, as a leader, you're the kind of person who moves into the battle, but again,
[SPEAKER_01]: it's not just show that you are domineering or conquering or how strong you are.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's your role.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's your job to do the hard thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when you're avoiding and like, I know I need to talk to my wife about this, but you just don't.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's where I think you're appropriately say, man up.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't be a leader unless you're deciding to have this hard conversation with your wife or your employee or your partner, your business partner, whatever it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I just, you're, just could advice, bro.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm very, I'm much benefiting.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think you have more experience than me in, in this area.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, but I'm just noting things that you're saying, then, like, oh, this is true in my workplace right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, one other psychological hack that is very helpful for people.
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't even know they need this, but it is been, it is so true.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you lead with something kind of nice and then bad news, it doesn't go well, even if you briefly say, hey, I don't have some great news and then you tell them, even if it's that quick, psychologically, they're already prepped to know that, okay, something's coming.
[SPEAKER_00]: They won't say, how come you didn't tell me, even if it's within that same sentence?
[SPEAKER_00]: So let me, let me give you a
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, Justin.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're doing good today.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad to see you.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're looking strong.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: You mean that?
[SPEAKER_00]: We're actually are.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was, well, I said it because I saw it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I say what I see.
[SPEAKER_00]: We totally do real quick.
[SPEAKER_00]: You go and, you know, like, I'm, I hope you're having well, hey, there was a handful of reports that you completely botched and honestly it's messed up a lot of the team.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's really, it's going to need to be redone and we got to figure out how like this is going to work in the future, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't feel good.
[SPEAKER_00]: What I'm about to say, doesn't, you know, I'm going to reframe it in a second.
[SPEAKER_00]: But as that example, like, I'm talking to you just like normal, then I'm giving you bad information.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if I come to you and say, hey, Justin, we need to have a quick conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not going to be a great one.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry to kind of mention this, but I want you to know.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, these reports didn't turn out the right way.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know that you probably did mean to do it right, but there's been a big miss here.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we need to get on the same page about how we can move forward together.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I know that simple, but even by saying that phrase, you won't even know that because this isn't fully real.
[SPEAKER_01]: Actually, no, I noticed it while you're saying it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like, because I thought you were giving me the good example the first time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, oh, this is kind of hurting.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I was like, oh, that second one was way better.
[SPEAKER_00]: all that happened there and this is fun like this is where I think learned that the learn that the leadership because it's the psychology of to me that's just it's just a nerdy interest I'm just interested in it's it's fascinating.
[SPEAKER_00]: Those key phrases it's amazing how you help your own leadership when you understand how the mind and people work and learning like hey if I present this information in this way it's not kind to them.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I need to learn how to actually
[SPEAKER_00]: learn how to have uncomfortable conversations with my heart's beating when I don't want to socially be in an awkward place in these persons like a friend, but I also have a responsibility of telling like that all those overlaps to this.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, those are some some, I want to talk about practical practices for healthy leaders, but I know those are some of the reasons why we have unhealthy leaders, those are some of the things they've been.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you identify any of that in yourself or in a team that you're on, I just want to say what we what we can all do
[SPEAKER_00]: and begin to change.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you have unhealed wounds or your identities built on performance or you're controlling instead of trusting or you're avoiding conversations, start to move towards what healthy leadership looks like and we can talk about some practices of a healthy leader which I want to talk about.
[SPEAKER_00]: But before we do, what were some of the things you want to mention?
[SPEAKER_00]: I know we were talking, you know, obviously going back and forth, do you want to go to the practices or did you have something before we jump into those?
[SPEAKER_01]: I have one comment on the controlling instead of trusting, which I think is really good.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the things that I've been learning is that you want your team to be challenged.
[SPEAKER_01]: You want them to have to rise the occasion to do difficult things.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when you're controlling, that doesn't work.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're you're micromanaging them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think the way I think I'm like,
[SPEAKER_01]: a good leader, but a mediocre manager.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I hope to become great at both.
[SPEAKER_01]: As in, like, I think I'm pretty good at setting vision.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I'm, hopefully, I do think I have the integrity to be an example, but just in terms of actually managing someone day to day.
[SPEAKER_01]: I kind of feel like a newbie, I'm bumbling, I'm better at managing myself than I am at other people.
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things I've been working on is giving people a difficult task that I know they are probably going to fail at and letting them fail.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm like, in order to be developed, I can't micromanage you here, nor do I have time by the way to micromanage you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't understand people who are controlling micromanaging, I don't have time for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like exhausting, dude, exhausting.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, one of the things I'd try and work on and I do think has been going well recently is being like, I'm gonna let you be challenged by this.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a difference between the self-sacrificial leadership that says, I'll help you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll take the fall here, I'll take the burden.
[SPEAKER_01]: because the company needs help with the organization needs help.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the kind that it's like, oh, I'm going to intervene because that won't be inconvenienced later.
[SPEAKER_01]: That actually, sometimes you need to let an employee fail so that they can grow and learn.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, obviously, you don't want this to tank the organization or hurt a client, but I just think it's a virtue of leadership to start to learn.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let them be challenged.
[SPEAKER_01]: Same way with my boys.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, I'm gonna make you just something hard, and I'm gonna watch you struggle.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is gonna help you develop.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that, I'm gonna love watching you struggle, son.
[SPEAKER_00]: Does this hurt?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Nope, not that, but yeah, I just wanted to, I wanted to chime in on that one.
[SPEAKER_00]: I totally agree.
[SPEAKER_00]: One thing that, you know, I think, maybe important distinction.
[SPEAKER_00]: And people might actually disagree, so there's, I'm absolutely comfortable with people disagreeing
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that it's always true that every manager is a leader and every leader is a manager.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's exactly what I wanted to distinguish.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can be a low level employee quote unquote and be a great leader.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can be a managing at the top level of the organization and be a bad leader.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're honestly not in the entirely the same skill sets.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yes, let me just say one more thing this concept that was revolutionary for me when I was under leadership that I did not thrive under and did not love there's a concept of leading up you've heard of this before yeah leading up is just so important and leading up is learning how do you encourage and inspire the leadership that is above you.
[SPEAKER_00]: By being kind of like the version that you would hope for them to be, but in a humbled position, it's a very, very, very important skill to learn if you ever want to lead.
[SPEAKER_00]: But leading up is basically calling out the good, assuming that they want the good, and trying to lead up by example.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that looks like your posture has to be humility, curiosity, openness.
[SPEAKER_00]: It could be something like, hey, I'm sure you've probably thought about this before.
[SPEAKER_00]: They probably haven't.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure you've thought about this before, but have you thought about doing it this way?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I'm wondering if this would actually help.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's an example of what leading up looks like.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think when you do that, it's a gift to the leader.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a gift to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a good skill set.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, so just one of my favorite proverbs on leadership.
[SPEAKER_01]: I believe is 1819 without vision.
[SPEAKER_01]: The people perish.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I think that goes, like, that's leading
[SPEAKER_01]: Most of leadership is done through clear words.
[SPEAKER_01]: Plenty is done through action, but if you're a leader, you need to be saying clearly what the vision is or where you're headed towards and why you're doing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But also if you're leading up, same thing, like give vision to your manager of like what we could do or what you could do or how they could do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess I'm saying, Father, it's like, speak clearly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't, yes, don't avoid using clear words and important words.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's, that's a lot of how you will lead.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whether you're managing up or managing down.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, the said, okay, I want to just give five quick practices of what healthy leader, like, of a healthy leader.
[SPEAKER_00]: Great.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just saying, we'll talk about these.
[SPEAKER_00]: We can talk more, but daily self-leadership.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you said this already like I felt more I felt better leading myself than leading other people, but truth be told it starts there and starts with that moment so for me it's silence prayer reflection It's naming emotions it's checking your motives like that's a daily so you need to daily lead yourself
[SPEAKER_00]: that keeps you in check if prize welling up or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's a great practice which I know you obviously somebody asked me a couple months ago they're like your team is triple in size like what's different about your role now and my honest answer was it is far more important for me to be in the word every morning because I need to have a well spring.
[SPEAKER_01]: of a lot of things, but I'm in charge of more people, so I need to all than more need to lead myself by being in prayer and the word.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's number two?
[SPEAKER_00]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to have, you already said this, but it's so true, clarify the vision constantly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Where are we going to say it again and again?
[SPEAKER_00]: You already said, make it simple, tie it to people, tie it to their purpose.
[SPEAKER_00]: I always try to help our team understand, like,
[SPEAKER_00]: we all have different roles.
[SPEAKER_00]: But at the end of the day, you all have individual colleagues and have said, yes, to help people through this ministry.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, your role might not be communicating, but we would never be able to communicate unless you played your role.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so everyone is saying, yes, not to us, but to what God is asking you to do on this team.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then also,
[SPEAKER_00]: your role matters because that that's not just like lip service.
[SPEAKER_00]: It does matter.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so always that.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you can, I think this is another practice of number three.
[SPEAKER_00]: Number three.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: So having hard conversations early.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't wait.
[SPEAKER_01]: I made a huge mistake last year.
[SPEAKER_01]: I waited so long to have a conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: We all knew we needed and I was just so mad and tired by the time we had it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I was more time to stew more time.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was horrible to build cases in your head of how bad they did.
[SPEAKER_01]: And to go through all the reasons of why they.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just, I mess this up so bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so glad you're saying this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's just to say that we already kind of touched on it, but you have the conversation like early, don't wait, be kind, be direct.
[SPEAKER_00]: Those are very helpful.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I even gave you a little script.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, like, I didn't avoid the thing, you know, and that example was like, hey, you missed the thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, it's okay to say that if they did, and it's okay to say graciously, like, hey, I'm sure this was your intent.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: One related piece of advice here again, I messed this up recently and people in my office have messed this up in the past actually I must stay vague if you find yourself writing a long email about something that went wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: throw it away immediately and walk through that person's office and talk to them in person.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of us procrastinate this hard conversation and we word it in an email and we rewrite it and we rewrite it and I'm like, if you find yourself doing this delete that thing, delete it and go talk to this person in person.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the way to do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it allows you to Ruminate, get angry, because you're delaying it, you're, you're, you're, yeah, there's so many reasons, but keep going.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, yeah, call them up and out.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, so for create feedback loops, you have to be the kind of leader that says, this is what healthy they're to.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's okay to disagree with me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to, like, I want your feedback.
[SPEAKER_00]: But here's the thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't just say that and not mean it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you have to say it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then if someone gives you feedback that's counter, or if you ask someone's opinion and it's different, you can't just write it off because it's different.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because then you're just saying something.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for example,
[SPEAKER_00]: with our team, I really really, really matters to me that I don't say, hey, team, you have a voice and then once they voice it, if it's different, we just say, well, whatever, we're going to do our way anyway.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really important to actually listen to create feedback loops and honor the feedback loops.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it doesn't, but here's the other in that spectrum.
[SPEAKER_00]: you have a responsibility that that rest that team does.
[SPEAKER_00]: So actually it's harder because you have to slow down enough to hold it and say, is this the right thing because at the end of the day, you're the one that has to decide.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's been a handful of things even recently that our team, maybe we said, hey, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think this and that, and I've had to go back and forth to go, okay, I hear you on this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I want to let you know that I'm really inclined to actually follow what you're thinking.
[SPEAKER_00]: But have we talked about this angle and I'm feeling this about that and And I want you to know I honor you, but I'm so wrestling.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's a wrestle.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a mess here.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you don't have like normalize honesty, normalize like Yeah, one question I would just encourage you to ask your employees if you ever dare so is what is it like to be led by me?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I'm saying that because it sounds like it's cool and then then if you ask it doesn't go well, what's it like you need to be ready you need to be ready for that and then last
[SPEAKER_00]: could not tell you how important this is.
[SPEAKER_00]: Serve in unseen ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: Serve your team.
[SPEAKER_00]: Serve people in unseen ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: No one notices like truly.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a gift.
[SPEAKER_01]: My team is going to laugh at this because I make an announcement every day at lunch.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, look, I'm washing the forks now because we've we've had a problem in people now.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, hey, look at me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was at a visit by saying,
[SPEAKER_01]: You guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, there's a point that's a joke and then there's a point like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hopefully it is a joke.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, can I add, add anything subtracting thing?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, don't subtract.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: I have two things to add and then a vision to give.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think we're done.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, two, two small practicals.
[SPEAKER_01]: Actually, I think these are big ones.
[SPEAKER_01]: One, your job as a leader is to filter complaints.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, say more.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, if you're leading, you're going to get complaints, if you're not getting complaints, you're not leading well, because people are either too scared to tell you or or, you know, you're not available to hear them.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you're leading, well, you're going to get a lot of complaints.
[SPEAKER_01]: People want things done differently.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you take them all personally,
[SPEAKER_01]: Or if you defend them all, or if you just ignore them all, like you're missing it, your job is to filter them and understand which ones are like, I'm sorry, I can't help that like work is hard.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or like, oh, that's a mistake in our organization.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not mine, but I need to solve that, or oh, that's my problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: How do I fix that?
[SPEAKER_01]: You're the filter.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Rollhizer has a great passage on this and one of his books about being the filter, and I'm not remembering, maybe I'll remember to accept next episode, but He puts Jesus as the filter, and he's like, Jesus is able to take the pain of the world and let it pass through him instead of returning it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, so many of us hear a complaint, and we return it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's hard because blah blah blah, or well, if you would done blah blah, or that's not true because actually,
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't need to return it, like both in fatherhood at home.
[SPEAKER_01]: My son will complain about like, but this is like this way.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, I don't need to respond.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, you know, sometimes it's a teaching.
[SPEAKER_01]: My words, sometimes I just need a filter.
[SPEAKER_01]: So your filter for complaints.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then this is a hard one.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is my last piece of practical advice.
[SPEAKER_01]: I struggle with this a lot, so I say it out of a position of weakness and figuring it out.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to learn how to be available as a leader.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, your people need you around eating with them, water breaks with them, chatting.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're hanging out after this part dude.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love this part.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you are, but I'm bad.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm saying that part comes easy.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is being disciplined enough to get all the stuff that's actually done.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's my, so it's just opposite.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's absolutely opposite.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I so I'm inclined to be like, don't bother me and he shut my door productive.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, everybody get to work.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm realizing just like at home.
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, my employees are not my children to be clear.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But these are two communities.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you're leading like your community wants, well, if you're a healthy one, like if you're an unhealthy one, they don't want you around.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, you walk in in the life of sucked out of the room.
[SPEAKER_00]: And culture shifts immediately.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, I hope, you know, I aspire to be a place where like, you know, they feel like we can hang.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we do Friday lunches, we do like coffee walks, we do, you know, sometimes Friday morning donuts.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have all these little like culture bits that we try to weave in just hang time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I, I try to encourage my partners like it's important for us to be there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like of course, we got something more important to do quote unquote.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and I've been in, um, I'll stay vague here, but I've been in ministry situations to where it's like, oh, clearly, this person at the top is super talented.
[SPEAKER_00]: And thus, that's an excuse for them not to have time for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or it's just be to be a loop.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, oh, I just lead or oh, I just preach or I, you know, I don't decipher.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't meant to look the, the challenging thing about Jesus' life.
[SPEAKER_01]: is that he set an example of being so radically interruptible and present, so radically present with people who wanted his attention.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: So radically good at steering his time and yet so amazingly available to the people that he led.
[SPEAKER_01]: And most of us, me included, are just not that way, but if we're going to lead like Jesus did, we definitely have our values.
[SPEAKER_01]: We definitely talk about them.
[SPEAKER_01]: We definitely have hard conversations.
[SPEAKER_01]: All these things are things that Jesus did.
[SPEAKER_01]: And guess what else he did?
[SPEAKER_01]: super available to people.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Super relaxed around them until suddenly he wasn't and he was having a really hard conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: These are just if you want to lead apologies.
[SPEAKER_01]: These are the Gospels ad-nausum ad-nausum every morning.
[SPEAKER_01]: Look at how Jesus lived, lived like he lived, lead like he did.
[SPEAKER_01]: The other proper by wanting to mention this is your vision closing out here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Proverbs 11, 10.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is back to episode three.
[SPEAKER_01]: When the righteous prosper the city rejoices, we want Christians who are leading like Jesus.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't want Christians who are leading like non Christians.
[SPEAKER_01]: We want you to actually be leading like Jesus.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't Christian leadership, servant leadership doesn't happen by virtue of you being in leadership and identifying as a Christian.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not how it works.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've got plenty of people doing that as horrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: You need to be in leadership.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we should want Christian in his in leadership who actually lead like Jesus.
[SPEAKER_01]: This no one has better tools to lead than the Christian who is actually putting the Bible into practice.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: We should rejoice.
[SPEAKER_01]: The city will rejoice when Christians who are actually leading like Jesus did are in positions of power.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't want you to avoid power.
[SPEAKER_01]: We want you to
[SPEAKER_01]: do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but you do it like the righteous and in Proverbs 1110, the righteous is Jesus.
[SPEAKER_01]: That means you take power.
[SPEAKER_01]: You take leadership and you wield it for the good of others.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, yes, yes, yes, yes, a name and and just one click back to what you were before that vision piece of just that practical end of availability, how Jesus was.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think just a note that I think a lot of leaders start to struggle with.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know I'm processing some of this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, how available should you be to everybody and yeah, there's boundaries.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, Jesus couldn't be found.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was all right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me, let me just get this out because I actually think I actually think there's there's just a process to think through because you are not at the disposal of everybody, but that's where our responsible for some.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a lot of people that might have my number that will text me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I will try my best truly to text back to an extent, but it depends on how close they are in my sphere.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyone that's on my team, anyone that's in my family, anyone that I am truly connected to and responsible for, all immediately communicate with or within the day, because that's the circle that they need to get a hold of.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then, but then outside of that, there's like layers and I'm saying this because it's easy to think like you need to also understand certain people literally some don't have capacity to to communicate in all the different ways that all the different types of people want to communicate with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you do have to have certain layers of like, okay, these are the people I always respond to.
[SPEAKER_00]: These are the people I will get back to when I can because I don't have as much relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just to say that we have to remember, and I'm going to say this to you, leader, leader that thinks that because you're a leader, you don't have to text back.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you do.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is so lame when your people need to get a hold of you and they can't.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you're the one holding it.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's just you can make time to do the things now.
[SPEAKER_00]: I understand I have the same deal.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I have a stack of probably 50 texts that I that I constantly have that I'm catching up to right, but I'm trying to catch up and I have rhythms and processes.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just to say like we can't be leaders that are so one available to the people.
[SPEAKER_00]: What are you laughing at?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm laughing because I'm really bad at this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not Joe.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, I am.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, but you know it's good.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm thinking in my head, I'm literally going to send us a voice memo.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when we do our Q&A episode, I can ask Brooke more about this because I need help with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: Me too.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I have so many people, family, friends, clients, employees who message me or email me or text me and half of it is just my maturity, I need to get
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm getting better at literally hiring help to manage my inbox and social media messages.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I just super agree with the aspiration of your comment, which is a wise, healthy leader who's leading like Jesus has really good boundaries that lead him to be radically available to the right people at the right times.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is just so much easier to say than it is to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's exactly the right vision.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the vision that we want to present to.
[SPEAKER_00]: We can talk more about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I do want to say that that is something.
[SPEAKER_00]: And actually, I want to be really fair because this nuance matters.
[SPEAKER_00]: You, you are not responsible to connect with everyone on social media.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's impossible.
[SPEAKER_00]: you're not responsible to connect to everyone through text, even or email.
[SPEAKER_00]: But there are certain things that you absolutely must and to discern.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's actually just prioritizing and communicating.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for example, if you can't get back to everybody having an automatic reply that says, this is what to expect.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or even with social media.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's what you can expect.
[SPEAKER_00]: I never respond here, so please reach out to this.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not even as much as just being, it's just if you clarify that communication of what you need, so you can funnel it, it's a gift to have people that want to ask you questions.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's a gift that by team or social media, whatever, it's a gift.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's also like another thing to manage and it's again a leadership to go have to figure out a process.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't mean it has to be perfect and it's not going to answer those questions, but as leaders you have responsibility to do something.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think there's there's extremes.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's nuances.
[SPEAKER_00]: You just got to figure out what works for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: So
[SPEAKER_00]: I really like the leadership as a publication.
[SPEAKER_00]: Great job dude.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm super blessed by your comments in this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope our listeners are there's so much for us to learn about how to lead Yes, believers, but we want to because our work is for the glory of God and the service of neighbor.
[SPEAKER_01]: So sure our leadership be it is not for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is for them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Go and peace.
[SPEAKER_01]: Next time we're going to talk about work in spiritual disciplines.
[SPEAKER_01]: We will see you next week.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.