[SPEAKER_00]: This is Jockel podcast number 544 with echo Charles and me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Jockel willing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good evening echo.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good evening.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now the last pause podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: We discussed We're kind of discussing how people learn and It was focused on that sort of individual People learning skills But while I was reading some background information about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I found an interesting article about organizational learning that not only had some Interesting information about learning but
[SPEAKER_00]: being a learning organization, but also it gave some really good knowledge about some of the psychological and emotional challenges that a military unit and thereby, and a team maybe at a less extreme level can face in stressful environments and also, you know, morally ambiguous environments.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, when you get into this, this is a article called Real, which is italicized.
[SPEAKER_00]: Real, lessons learned for leaders after years of war.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's written by Lieutenant Colonel Joe Doddy or Doddy, who's a PhD, U.S. Army retired.
[SPEAKER_00]: and Master Sergeant Jeffrey E. Fennlison, or Fennlison, US Army.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, a couple guys put this together, and they say this.
[SPEAKER_00]: The past 10 years, plus of war, have provided numerous opportunities for the Army to capture lessons learned for future leader development, both officers and for both officers and NCOs, how many and which of these lessons the Army will translate into actual,
[SPEAKER_00]: content, curriculum, pedagogy, in the Army, schools or leader development programs is unknown.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we've gathered all this information, how much of us is actually going to make it into the curriculum that's getting put out.
[SPEAKER_00]: This article examines the Army as a learning organization, recommends the Army include studies on human, the human dimension in leader development schools and programs.
[SPEAKER_00]: I couldn't agree more.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've said it since day one on this podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is about
[SPEAKER_00]: leadership is about human nature.
[SPEAKER_00]: Life is about human nature.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they go into a little bit of how we learn because the army is a learning organization is imperative that it learned from its history, both good and the bad.
[SPEAKER_00]: Such common reflective practices as after action reviews, A-Rs talk about those all the time, leader feedback coaching and performance counseling all speak to a learning organization.
[SPEAKER_00]: top down and bottom up forms that disseminate and share information from the army to the army things like company command.com, platoonleader.com, and I used to frequent those things.
[SPEAKER_00]: I haven't looked at them in a while.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to check them out again.
[SPEAKER_00]: Our forums that share lessons learned to best practices at the grass roots and junior officer levels.
[SPEAKER_00]: All of these forums and power users to share insights and lessons learned, but that information may or may not become institutionalized in formal instructional, educational, or training material.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can have people talking about stuff, but if you don't capture it and turn it into some kind of curriculum or doctrine that people can then follow, you can make the same mistakes.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we got to be careful of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you got to be careful that inside your organization.
[SPEAKER_00]: You got people talking about what they could done or what they make some change, but they don't capture it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: In his seminal work on the subject of fifth discipline, Peter Seng or Seng, one of the leading teachers and proponents of learning organizations defines a learning organization as one quote, where people continually expand their capacity, create results that truly they truly desire, where new and expansive patterns of thinking are nurtured, where collective aspiration is set free, and where people are continually learning how to learn together.
[SPEAKER_00]: He adds that learning organizations are possible because, and he is a quote, not only is it in our nature to learn, but we love to learn.
[SPEAKER_00]: Most of us at one time or another have been part of a great team, a group of people who functioned together in an extraordinary way, who trusted one another, who complimented one another's strengths, and compensated for one another's limitations, who had common goals that were larger than individual goals, who produced extraordinary results.
[SPEAKER_00]: The team became great.
[SPEAKER_00]: The team that became great didn't start off great.
[SPEAKER_00]: It learned how to produce extraordinary results.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sange proposes that learning organizations be grounded in, quote, developing three core learning capabilities, fostering aspiration, developing a reflective conversation and understanding complexity.
[SPEAKER_00]: OK, so he goes into a section here where he's talking about some of these developments of doctrines and as another guy, he brings up David Colb.
[SPEAKER_00]: talks about his learning style models so there's some there's some scholarly type information I am going to skip over but it's good it's good information but I'm going to skip through it if you want it you can you can read the entire article yourself I'm going to get to some of the meat here
[SPEAKER_00]: Completing the mission is only one part of the soldier's requirements in the operational environment.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thinking back about what happened and using that information and knowledge to influence subsequent actions for the better is another important requirement and this equates to learning.
[SPEAKER_00]: for performance.
[SPEAKER_00]: The very simple habit forming attitude, thinking back and acting forward that's kind of a theme in this article, thinking back and acting forward.
[SPEAKER_00]: Foster's aspiration develops reflective conversations and helps us understand complexity.
[SPEAKER_00]: Army stories and vignettes often capitalize on this powerful learning technique if we make an effort to deliberately habitually reflect as we act real learning world curve.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is why at S. Lampron, we're so
[SPEAKER_00]: We we encourage using a debrief so much.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what all this stuff is is doing a debrief and you may have heard me say this lately The idea of being intentional.
[SPEAKER_00]: What does that mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: I doesn't just mean I'm living my life intentionally like it doesn't just mean that right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It means plan execute debrief.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what it means plan execute debrief.
[SPEAKER_00]: You come up with a plan You go execute and then you debrief.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you don't debrief You don't know what you did wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not gonna learn from it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not gonna get better
[SPEAKER_00]: so we have to plan execute debrief.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what this is encouraging as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Donald Jones work on reflective practices further supports the notion of thinking back and acting forward.
[SPEAKER_00]: It discusses organizations that focus on reflecting.
[SPEAKER_00]: and journaling about experiences to improve performance.
[SPEAKER_00]: The common denominator is systemic reflection at the individual and team level, a habitual team or individual after action review in which soldiers and leaders make a conscientious effort to learn so that they will not repeat mistakes of the past.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, this is a debrief.
[SPEAKER_00]: But isn't it interesting?
[SPEAKER_00]: How little this happens?
[SPEAKER_00]: We work with companies all the time and we say, oh, did you do a debrief for this?
[SPEAKER_00]: 80 million dollar project that you did?
[SPEAKER_00]: No debrief.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you do a debrief for this?
[SPEAKER_00]: Extreme failure Tactical failure that happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you do a debrief?
[SPEAKER_00]: No not really did you you had a big market when did you do a debrief?
[SPEAKER_00]: You had a big market failure, did you do a debrief?
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it didn't do a debrief.
[SPEAKER_00]: We hired someone in their outstanding, did you do a debrief on what you look for?
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it didn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's here and gone with us, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So we don't debrief, and you know what?
[SPEAKER_00]: This can be a little bit tricky.
[SPEAKER_00]: But debriefing your kids, or having them debrief you.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is something that more people need to do, because kids are like, you know, just,
[SPEAKER_00]: goldfish goldfish brain goldfish memory next play, you know what I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're just on to the next thing so they're not learning
[SPEAKER_00]: you need to you need to think and think about what happened so debrief that's what we're talking about and the idea of journaling and to debrief yourself what happened and what went wrong and what went right and what can be done better that's a powerful thing I have not done that
[SPEAKER_00]: I've not sat down for, you know, oh, this thing and, and journal that, but what I have done is when I'm debriefing the team, oh, here's I ver, I write down my five bullet points, my seven bullet points, my three bullet points, makes you so much better.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a few of those things that,
[SPEAKER_01]: that you've kind of brought up that aren't standard or whatever but it's like dang when you think about it if you do these things they help so much but they're not like you know what another one is how you guys like you compared sealed training with I think might have been like professional sports and then also like compared it to like the what you call like I think might have been like the police academies or something like this where
[SPEAKER_01]: for an operation or for a deployment you guys do this work up in this training like so much training right for this thing and a football team for example they got a game on Saturday not to mention the whole fall camp they just train train train train train train so even if you go week to week it's uh let's say five days of training in one game so that's a five-to-one ratio training to performance right but
[SPEAKER_00]: will say in the private sector, there's not that much training, you know, of course, if you don't reframe things and make everything training, which you can, I won't say easily do, but you can absolutely do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yes, you need to reframe things so that there is training taking place.
[SPEAKER_00]: Otherwise, and yeah, law enforcement is a
[SPEAKER_00]: law enforcement, you know, they work their hours and they where do they where does the headshed want them when they're working?
[SPEAKER_00]: They want them on the streets patrolling.
[SPEAKER_00]: But that means they have no room to train.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I can care and to you, I think it should be 20% I think 20% of the police time should be spent training.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you work for four days on the street and then you get one day where you're training, you know, it doesn't need to be broken down like that, but 20% of the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I promise you, I promise
[SPEAKER_00]: and help you when things are going sideways.
[SPEAKER_00]: The person that's trained a whole bunch of time or the person that's just been beat down by patrol patrol patrol patrol patrol and deal with that and look they're learning when they're doing stuff especially hopefully because they're doing debriefs but if you don't even have time to debrief like you and I go on a call you're my partner we go on a call something goes sideways we have to handle it we get done
[SPEAKER_00]: and then what do we do we go back on we go back to our next call we go to our next call we didn't even debrief not even on the Friday we work for four days straight we came to say hey remember on Wednesday when this happened you're like yeah dude I feel I felt like I could have done this better yeah it would help me a lot but I also dropped the ball here but thank you for doing this oh I didn't even notice that you noticed that yeah it really helped out yeah so boom we're not doing that at all that's a real problem yeah
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I remember and I forget if you said this or I just thought this where we're kind of crunching the numbers where you're like 20% should be training right for the list of the police department was in and so what would you rather would you rather if a you know scenario with like a bunch of police that are required do you want eight trained guys like highly trained guys or 10 not so trained guys you know and yeah that makes sense and you're right so 20% of training training training that so that's real intentional right like training
[SPEAKER_01]: and then when you're working, that's training too, technically, but especially if you do that part intentionally, but here's the thing with the working part because if you compare to GGT, right where let's say the competition.
[SPEAKER_01]: the competition's kind of like training like you're learning a lot in competition, especially if you treat it as a training opportunity.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, you can do it, but in let's say the police force, some days is like super like training, you know, some days you're not really getting that much activity.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll say, excuse me, and it's less like controllable.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, if you treat it intentionally, you can learn everything you possibly can, even from those light days, you seem to say.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, that made sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you and I go to a call, something goes sideways or it doesn't go smooth.
[SPEAKER_00]: If we spend five minutes debriefing or 10 minutes debriefing, but we learn exponentially.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, feel like amount, an exponential amount, compared to if we just go to the next call.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that by the way that can all be included in the 20% you know, maybe it's maybe it's you still work a normal schedule But at the end of the day you have an hour and a half to train.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, like I still know.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's so good that totally makes sense because in football It's like we will watch tape of the game
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of that same day, you know, you breathe 100%.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's like a analytical check.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right fast forward a little bit lessons learn for Commanders and leaders operation Iraqi freedom OIF and operation enduring freedom OIF have provided countless Stories from which to learn
[SPEAKER_00]: Robert Miller, our staff Sergeant Robert Miller, or Salvatore, going to the private first class, Ross McGinnis, to play, displayed selfless service loyalty and personal courage as of countless others in the by the way, those are all metal of honor recipients.
[SPEAKER_00]: Countless other soldiers and leaders named and unnamed, who set the example, taken the initiative, performed courageously, and chosen the harder right, rather than easier wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he's setting up like, hey, that we do a lot of good stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: Lots of great examples out there.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then he goes on to say, however, as is often the case with human nature, much learning in development comes because of failures or negative psychological and emotional events.
[SPEAKER_00]: Without question, the vast majority of soldiers in combat have done an AR doing the right thing under difficult circumstances, but we also know that bad things are going to happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: They always do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And our adversaries will use the media, the internet, social network to cleverly exploit the slightest misstep by US forces for their own strategic and tactical purposes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So what they're going to do?
[SPEAKER_00]: You make a little, you can do a hundred things, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: You do one thing wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: By the way, if you have a company and you have all these great yelp reviews and then you throw the one customer gets a wild or doesn't get treated right.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're going to get all kinds of views when they write their crappy yelp review.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you need to keep that in mind.
[SPEAKER_00]: Analysis of the unfortunate and tragic U.S. incidents that have occurred in OIF and OIF provided common themes, insights, and lessons learned that leaders should be aware of and look for both in themselves and their soldiers.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, this is a very good thing to remember, because it's kind of talking about the debrief here.
[SPEAKER_00]: The purpose here is not to.
[SPEAKER_00]: dwell on or highlight the bad stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not the purpose.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not like, oh, we're gonna rehash a bunch of bad stuff for no reason, or we're not gonna dwell on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not two second guest decisions.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not to criticize with the benefit of hindsight.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a real easy one, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not to discuss the personalities involved in the events.
[SPEAKER_00]: So now we're going on a little witch hunt activity and it's not to rehash a retail stores.
[SPEAKER_00]: Our purpose is to help army leaders learn, really learn.
[SPEAKER_00]: We want to capture and articulate what can and arguably should be put in leaders' kitbacks in this case, there are hearts and brains.
[SPEAKER_00]: In terms of the human dimension of war, to better equip them to look out for and not make the same mistakes made in the past.
[SPEAKER_00]: We also want to raise awareness of common themes that have occurred in combat over the years and will continue to come for years as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: What follows are brief summaries of some high profile cases from O-EF and O-I-F.
[SPEAKER_00]: So now it rattles off again the high profile negative cases.
[SPEAKER_00]: We talked about metal of honor recipients, this is the other end of the spectrum.
[SPEAKER_00]: The kill team.
[SPEAKER_00]: A small group of soldiers in the second Infantry Division allegedly formed a kill team in late 2009 or early 2010.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some of the team members allegedly killed two or three unarmed non-threatening Afghans then staged the scenes to make it look as if the deaths were combat related.
[SPEAKER_00]: They also allegedly committed other violations of regulations and law, such as collecting
[SPEAKER_00]: The Heditha killings.
[SPEAKER_00]: In November 2005, in Heditha, Iraq, 24 Iraqis were allegedly killed by US Marines as part of a retribution attack after a convoy from third-by-time first Marines was hit by an improvised explosive device that killed Lance Corporal Miguel Terrosis and it's really wounded in another Marine.
[SPEAKER_00]: At least three officers were officially reprimanded for failing to properly report and investigate the killings, all criminal charges against six Marines were dropped and one Marine was prosecuted and found not guilty.
[SPEAKER_00]: The squad leader was recently given a plea deal and found guilty of negligent dereliction of duty.
[SPEAKER_00]: and i've talked about that one before because this is November 2005 when this happened and by the way as a point out these marines were cleared like they looked into it but there was such a spotlight on civilian casualties so when when we arrived in the spring of 2006 in the body this spotlight was strong
[SPEAKER_00]: Next one, the canal killings.
[SPEAKER_00]: Three non-commissioned officers from the 172nd Brigade combat team were found guilty of executing four Iraqi detainees on or around April 2007.
[SPEAKER_00]: These, quote, canal killings were allegedly a response to detainees being released after having been detained only a few days and immediately returning to the fight.
[SPEAKER_00]: the next one, the Samara murders.
[SPEAKER_00]: Four soldiers from the hundred first airborne division aerosol were found guilty of killing three detainees in May of 2006 during Operation Iron Triangle near Samara Iraq, allegedly the soldiers released the detainees and then shop them to make it look like an escape attempt.
[SPEAKER_00]: Tigris River Bridge incident in January of 2004 soldiers from the Fourth Infantry Division allegedly forced two Iraqis off a bridge over the Tigris River.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the Iraqis died, an officer and NCO were found guilty of crimes related to this incident.
[SPEAKER_00]: During the investigation, it was alleged that they battalion commander wanted to cover up the bridge incident.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't cover stuff up.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to tell you that right now, it doesn't work.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you think you're going to be able to cover something up, you're wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, the only people that don't talk about what happened is dead or dead.
[SPEAKER_00]: If they're alive, they're going to tell somebody.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can't do cover up.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't work.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you need to tell your people that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Moom idea murders and rape in March 2006 near Moom idea.
[SPEAKER_00]: I rack four soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division Air Assault killed four.
[SPEAKER_00]: I rackied non-combatants and raped one of them before killing her.
[SPEAKER_00]: All first soldiers were found guilty of rape and murder.
[SPEAKER_00]: Abu Ghraib, 11 soldiers were found guilty of detainee abuse and other crimes in connection with this well-publicized case in Abu Ghraib prison.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then Bogram detainee abuse in the spring of summer and summer of 2002 at Bogramar Air Base Afghanistan soldiers were allegedly involved in detainee abuse cases.
[SPEAKER_00]: To which were featured on a CNN documentary, Taxi to the Dark Side, at least 15 personnel were charged with crimes and five were convicted.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, those are, again, the high profile cases, and, you know, again, they mentioned this already.
[SPEAKER_00]: The vast majority of the soldiers, sailors, they have been reigned, are out there trying to do the right thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: But they're in tough environments and they're going to talk about how this stuff can occur.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it also, to me, it's, it kind of shows you how much scrutiny there is on our troops.
[SPEAKER_00]: that these incidents, they don't happen very often and when they do, they get rolled up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Even when they try and cover them up.
[SPEAKER_00]: uh, back to the document.
[SPEAKER_00]: The eight incidences briefly described above, along with others from all conflicts, most notably me lie incident in Vietnam 1968, which we covered on this podcast, highlights what can happen in war.
[SPEAKER_00]: Clearly the incidents are not a reflection of our army, our professional ethic, or the seven army values.
[SPEAKER_00]: In addition, they may not be examples,
[SPEAKER_00]: of leadership failures.
[SPEAKER_00]: They do indicate I disagree with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, if you think this stuff happens, there's a leadership failure.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you got people raping and murdering a civilian populace, there's a leadership problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure what they mean by that.
[SPEAKER_00]: They do not indicate a need for increased leader education about, oh sorry, they do indicate a need for increased leader education about indicators of ethics Abdication So this is when what shows you signs that maybe people are forgetting about their ethics
[SPEAKER_00]: That's one of the most horrible things about the Meal Eye Mascar.
[SPEAKER_00]: These dudes were just regular dudes from all different backgrounds, but a lot of guys from really good normal backgrounds, but they lost their minds.
[SPEAKER_00]: They lost their moral code, they lost their direction, their moral compass.
[SPEAKER_00]: Additionally, we must face the reality that the military is a reflection of society, and one of the incidences, the rape and murder at Momadia, Iraq, was likely in part a result of criminal elements within the ranks.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so you can have some just straight up criminals.
[SPEAKER_00]: And by the way, you got to watch out for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And remember when we had Jordan Peterson on here, and I said, hey, if you're in charge of a platoon, there's going to be a socio path in there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I had to set, I'd actually set this to a group of army soldiers.
[SPEAKER_00]: So actually, a group of army officers.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they all kind of looked at me like I was like, no, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I had Dr. Jordan Peterson on, and I said, hey,
[SPEAKER_00]: And he said, so I said, like, he goes, how big is up until now?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I can't afford your 50 guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he said, oh, yeah, like one sociopath in there for sure, especially what he said was,
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a whole bunch of people that will not be sociopaths and therefore would not join the military.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's like a bunch of hippies and you know, whatever, hippies and flower children that they're not gonna be sociopaths and they're not that half of the group or whatever court of the group, they're not even in the group.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when you get down to just,
[SPEAKER_00]: 40 people that are open to the they're at least at a minimum they're open to the idea of killing the enemy Right if you're an aim for treatment you're at least open to that idea So anyone that's not open to that idea is in my professional psychological opinion not gonna be associated with that They're not open to it So now you take all of a sudden you take 40 people because he said the normal numbers are like one in a hundred So yeah, probably even bigger than that so you may have just criminal people in the ranks
[SPEAKER_00]: That's going to happen, which you're going to watch out for is that if that person starts swaying the opinions of other people.
[SPEAKER_00]: So going back to the documentary, most important from a learning perspective is the fact that the incidents were the result of some, if not all.
[SPEAKER_00]: of nine psychological and emotional constructs that can be a consequence of stressful, complex, uncertain, and highly volatile combat environment.
[SPEAKER_00]: So here we're going to get to these things that can lead to this happening, these types of things happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: The nine constructs are, and by the way, it's really interesting how You can find you like we're talking about war crime activity, but these are also just Sort of how people negotiate with themselves or Convince themselves that they're doing the right thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it doesn't necessarily have to be a war crime It can be like I don't need to I don't need to change the ink in the copy machine That's not on me like you know what I'm saying even these little things feel
[SPEAKER_00]: So number one, authorization, authorization is the perception that the chain of command sanctions approves or directs a particular behavior.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was just following orders or this is what my leader expects me to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: By the way, what you're going to watch out for is if you have a behavior as a leader, that's pretty much authorization.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you show up late, other people are going to
[SPEAKER_00]: You use bad language, other people are going to use bad language.
[SPEAKER_00]: By the way, this includes your kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: Think you're going to swear around your kids and they're not going to swear.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, they're going to swear.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you've got to remember that your behavior authorizes it within your team.
[SPEAKER_00]: Next one, transfer of responsibility.
[SPEAKER_00]: Transfer of responsibility is the perception that some other person bears the responsibility for an unethical act.
[SPEAKER_00]: IE someone else's responsibility.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is an army.
[SPEAKER_00]: Next one, routineization.
[SPEAKER_00]: Routineization occurs when soldiers gradually acculturate to unethical actions or abuses.
[SPEAKER_00]: Unethical behavior simply becomes routine.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just what we do.
[SPEAKER_00]: An athlete who has taken performance and enhancing drugs for years or teenagers paying for one movie and watching two or three in the Senateplex are civilian examples.
[SPEAKER_00]: The routine and daily execution of the final solution by Nazi Germany during World War II is history's most horrendous example of routine andization.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is where you just make these little things and you just kind of let them slide.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is what's tough as a leader because you can't harp on little things that don't matter, but you also can't just let little things that don't matter turn into big things.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, if I let you get away with, you know, at the end of the night where we're we're cleaning the the kitchen and we're putting away the the stakes that we didn't cook and, you know, you grab like one of the small stakes and you're going to take it home and eat it, but you can pay for it.
[SPEAKER_00]: then you do it again, then you do it again, then you do it again.
[SPEAKER_00]: At a certain point, you start taking two or three states, got the family to feed.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you see what I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you have to be careful that you don't let little ethical, little ethical transgressions, little tiny ethical transgressions become routine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you can imagine anyway that you can slide into criminality in real life real quick like that extra have an example of that when I was young Maybe 11th grades and areas led into criminality.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, my friend.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, all right, and he he would chop left and and I started with like something super small is like candy or something like this and he you know He's like I just put in his pocket or whatever and
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so me usually like my friends that I hung out with they're not criminals at all, they're not bad kids at all, so to me or to us when he took that little piece of candy that first time, I was like kind of surprised.
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things I was surprised with is that he got away with it for some reason I mean it kind of brought it to light where I guess I was under the impression that like I don't know There's freaking like Fort Knox cameras everywhere in the freaking 70 11 other you know
[SPEAKER_01]: But he got away with it and I was like, right, it's, is it that easy?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you just go, you know, you just go in a aisle that no one's in there and you just take whatever you want in in a slide way and just walk out of whatever so I was like kind of surprised but whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then slowly but surely he would start taking like more stuff and here's another part of it too where.
[SPEAKER_01]: He got to the point where he was like kind of like, hey, you want to come see it like it was like almost like a performance.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he would like, he'd be like laughing as if and I was like, bro, this is.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I kept being like more and more surprising, like, bro, it's like that easy.
[SPEAKER_01]: You just, that's how, you know, you just do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, in hindsight, I'm like, okay, people don't just start shot lifting, you know, because it's like everyone knows, like, rather, it's a rule.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, you know, almost like the honor system is also in play along with a real lock, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: In the weird when, like, I remember cases where these rich real super rich, like Hollywood people would get busted for shoplifting.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't own a writer.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think there might be another example, but I think that is the one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did she go out with Johnny Depp?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: but she who could clearly afford like pretty much anything is in there to shoplift.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's a weird thrill you're looking for, but it's something to pay attention to.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's something to pay attention to, you know, when you let little transgressions go.
[SPEAKER_00]: they will start to grow and again as a leader you have to find the balance because you know you're you're you're gonna have your platoons or your team they're gonna do some things that you're like you know what I get it you know I'm trying to think about just a some little thing that people will get away with you know they're gonna get away with some little thing and you go like I can't harp on this little thing it doesn't really matter that much
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but you've got to figure out where that line is and you've got to make it very clear, you know, you can't You you got to make it very very clear What the line is and it's got to be hey if you do this you
[SPEAKER_00]: I will not support you and in fact I will go out of my way across you.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, it's a late when I've talked about this on this podcast, I'm going to affect, you know, I got your back, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, echo, I got your back.
[SPEAKER_00]: You should know I got your back, like no, I got your back almost no matter what you do.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you do something that's illegal or immoral or an ethical, I don't got your back and you need to know that.
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to know that.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, oh, okay, like I don't got your back.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you do something that's illegal, immoral or an ethical, you better know that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't got your back.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now you make an honest mistake.
[SPEAKER_00]: I got your back all day.
[SPEAKER_00]: You want to push the envelope?
[SPEAKER_00]: Cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: You cross the line, though.
[SPEAKER_00]: We got a problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: And by the way, sometimes you've got some things, you know, there's rules that we have to go.
[SPEAKER_00]: The spirit of the rule is not good.
[SPEAKER_00]: And therefore, you know, we had interpreters in Ramadi.
[SPEAKER_00]: and interpreters aren't supposed to carry weapons and aren't interpreters carry weapons because putting an interpreter in Ramadi without a weapon was wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was morally wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it was morally wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're just asking a guy wearing an American uniform in Ramadi.
[SPEAKER_00]: to go out there where look he you know he gets separated from people whatever there's a million things that can happen he just needs a maneuver across the street where you like you need a gun and it was like yep go ahead and if i would have you know if something would happen where i would have been held accountable to that i would have they would say will
[SPEAKER_00]: did you let your interpreters carry weapons out of said yes and they would said that's against rules and I would said well I should have gone about it better but I could not in good conscience send another person that's on our team into Ramadi without a weapon and some of them were American some of them were foreign nationals
[SPEAKER_00]: But they were on our team and they were risking their lives to help us.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, the idea that, and you know what, it was kind of okay, but even my boss, you know, I don't know that I went through, I can't remember if I ever like discussed it with him, but he definitely saw pictures and knew, like, knew that the guys were carrying weapons.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he probably felt the same way.
[SPEAKER_00]: And by the way, all the, you know, battalion commanders that are out there, the everyone saw, wasn't like, oh, you know, we're trying to hide it, doing it on the, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's things like that that are going to happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to make a judgment call.
[SPEAKER_00]: And really it is, like, would you be able to stand in front of whoever and say, this is why I made this decision?
[SPEAKER_00]: And most of the time, you know, it should be pretty aligned.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, are there things that, yeah, and you should be able to tell a difference between, hey, I'm doing this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm making this decision right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it is completely justifiable.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you start feeling like, I don't know if this is justifiable, then you guess what?
[SPEAKER_00]: You're probably wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're probably wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we have to pay attention to that to make sure that things aren't becoming these little, these, and you gotta explain that to the troops too.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't just have little violations of the rules and act like it's not there.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you gotta say like, hey, our terms are carrying weapons.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like boom, like, that's what we're doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know it's the letter of the law.
[SPEAKER_00]: We can't do that, but I'm not sending these guys who are risking their lives to go out there and help us.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not putting them in for a mighty free American uniform without a weapon.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, and again, you're always going to run into things like that, and then you look up, if you're not careful, if you don't draw that line, you look up and things have gone completely sideways, and you got someone that's doing things that are immoral, illegal, or unethical.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we got to pay attention.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, those small violations, like, you know, like, okay, there's a rule, right, and then let's say someone breaks the rule, but just not not in a big way, just in a teeny tiny way, just like it's like the whole being on time thing, where, and I, I violated this, like, when I still work at the, at the nightclub, I'd come like one minute, two minutes late, right, and then if my supervisor was kind of my friend to, and then if my supervisor was kind of my friend to, and then if my supervisor was kind of my friend to, and then if my supervisor was kind of my friend to, and then if my supervisor was kind of my friend to, and then my supervisor was kind of my friend to, and then my supervisor was kind of my friend to, and then my supervisor was kind of my friend to, and then my supervisor was kind of my friend to, and then my supervisor was kind of my friend to, and then my supervisor was kind of my friend to, and
[SPEAKER_01]: If you would say anything, I would kind of like gaslight them a little bit and be like, but it's like two minutes and you're making a big deal out of it, I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: But, and which I kind of got away with too.
[SPEAKER_01]: But, he was actually right because it's like,
[SPEAKER_01]: The violation or the rule isn't, hey, you have to come within two minutes of this time or whatever, it's like, no, you start at this time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, if you're late, you have violated the rule.
[SPEAKER_01]: Seems like, just like shoplifting.
[SPEAKER_01]: What if you shoplifting a jolly rancher for two cents?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, probably, is you going to jail for that, and yeah, maybe, because he shot, lifted, that's the rule, same thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's like a way that big transgressions can happen because it starts just small.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then after after a certain amount of times, like, where do you draw the line?
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're saying, like, I got a, I told you this, I got in trouble for taking money at the front door as a bombsick.
[SPEAKER_00]: But like, I walk up to come to the bar and hand you a 20 and you let me in and get a trouble for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, well, depends on how you do it, depends on the club, but how we had it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Our club was kind of strict.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, there, what I ended up, I even forget actually what I did, but the report came back that I took money, but I still have made them pay the cover charge, but I let them skip the line.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I took money to let them skip the line.
[SPEAKER_01]: Which seems good, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But art our place was super strict and it seems even it seemed even worse because the people that Did that that I hooked up like that for your friends?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, they're secret shoppers.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what that is?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they're like hired They're they're the service that come in and give you like a like a what a call a candidate and what in the evaluation of your the service that you're giving and so yeah I got rolled up on that me and another guy So and the thing is not that big a deal, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: The club got their money
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I made money on the side, but he had no bearing, you know, whatever, but it was a violation of the system so I got in trouble.
[SPEAKER_01]: But here's the thing though, side note, we actually fought back, not like fought back against the owner, whatever, but we brought it to his attention, it's like, hey, like we, the club got their money.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's like this shouldn't be that big of a deal technically on a technical level, you know, just like Forget about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, we're strict here thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just think about it from our perspective.
[SPEAKER_01]: Seems like he and he was like, Brian, you kind of have a point.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he allowed us to come up with a system to get money for people to get into the system.
[SPEAKER_01]: They just paid double as long as the club got their money, we can run the line.
[SPEAKER_01]: However, we want as long as it doesn't create care.
[SPEAKER_00]: So do you have like a left line and a right line?
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly right.
[SPEAKER_00]: and they just had this straight up 40 bucks to get in here, 80 bucks to get in here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep, exactly right, but it wasn't, it wasn't a sign or nothing like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was, you know, there's one long line, and then there's one teeny tiny short line, and, you know, people come up and everyone knows like, here's the line to get in, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a little cover charge right here, and then people always ask, well, what's this line?
[SPEAKER_01]: And we say that's either the guess or the express line, that's for people on the list, or if they want to pay the express cover, which is blah, blah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Damn, express cover.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, girls.
[SPEAKER_00]: Fuck it in the game.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but then we came up with a good system.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the owner was like, yeah, that's, yeah, fine with me as long as you guys don't start manipulating the line.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, how like some people, they'll be like, hey, they will slow roll the line.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so, you know, he's like, don't you dare pull that kind of stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it would be an interesting, I should have done this, but to just sit down and think of all the rules, like rules that I either bent or broke, and then what was the line between, you know, hey, no, you can't do that, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you can do this, but you can't do that, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it'd be interesting to figure out what that is, because I know, like,
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, one of the things like that when I was just talking like no cover up like that's a thing that I would literally say like we are not the would there's nothing getting covered up If something happens we're reporting it.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what we're doing and That's one of those things where guys now.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not gonna come to me and say like hey, this happened can we
[SPEAKER_00]: No, they already know that, which, by the way, keeps people in check, because if they know they do something, it's gonna be reported.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you have to, it keeps people more in check.
[SPEAKER_00]: If they think, you know, well, you know, Jockel covered up the, uh, whatever over here.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think we'll be good to know.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, that's not the way it works.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not the way it works.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it'd be good to figure out, you know, just rules, some of those like that, that thing with the terps is a good one, you know, that I can remember.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a very clear, hey, here, where's the rule?
[SPEAKER_00]: And here's what I did.
[SPEAKER_01]: And here's why I did it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, did you do that, did you ask for, you know, how they say ask for either you ask for permission?
[SPEAKER_00]: or say, sorry, or what, you know, that's like, so quite frankly, the turps were just carrying weapons if I got there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, okay, so you guys are carrying weapons.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, yeah, and I'm like, understood, continue.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it was one of those things.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I knew the rules, the rules, there was a precedent of the rules not being followed for that particular thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I continue.
[SPEAKER_00]: I checked with the precedents.
[SPEAKER_00]: I let them know that I was aware because I think that's important to let who know let the everyone like hey guys I know that this is it's not like I'm
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm unaware, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: You're guys, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because otherwise they go, no, he's not really going to find out or if he doesn't know like that type of thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I know, and I'm okay with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And here's why.
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you have to answer for it or anything?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I never did.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it was, it might be a bad example because it was so common.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like I saw like the most of the turps carried weapons.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, I shouldn't say that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, ours definitely can't.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Actually in a way, it's kind of a good example of how easily these, you can cross over to these things because Like kind of how you said where it's like brought to you and obviously not you, not just you.
[SPEAKER_01]: but it was justified, but it was still a rule, so once you kind of get on that side of the whole rules thing on the fence of it with the rules, it's kind of like, well, what else is there on that?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why if you don't address the rule, the rule that you're breaking and why you're breaking it, and you just break the rule without any explanation, that leaves room for interpretation.
[SPEAKER_00]: People go, oh well, we don't have to do this, if we don't do that, we don't have to do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, one they're like,
[SPEAKER_01]: like even like the shop lifting thing that because that was kind of deep too gay you have the ever heard of like I knew this girl and she was in a purse store and you know clothing so I don't know macy's or something like this and she's like oh my gosh and you know how like you try on stuff right so she had this like she had this handbag or whatever and she's like oh my gosh this looks nice on me or whatever and then then she goes and checks out this shirt or that and
[SPEAKER_01]: She accidentally left this purse on her shoulder just like not thinking about it, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: As she's shopping whatever, like for a long time, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, can you literally put on your shoulder and forget about it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Which I understand.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, think of like, if you have a scar for something, you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: You said it's like, you'll forget you have it all.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: And well, she literally did, well, you know, that was her story, but she's not that kind and you're gonna be there But, no, don't stand but So she's shopping for like a long ass time and then she walks out with the purse on accident.
[SPEAKER_01]: She got rolled up and she's like crying So they call my guys this whatever, but it got me thinking wait a second that can happen all the time and like you'll forget about it or like you know like you do
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's say you're at the grocery store or something you leave like something at the bottom of the Yeah, yeah, you know like some batteries or something they get smashed Yeah, you think you know whatever and you walk on you realize the way I didn't pay for that But you're already like halfway home or something like this or you're across the parking lot It's like all right, but I'm gonna pay this like three dollars You're gonna walk back in go whatever is like I and you just you already technically got away with it All right, so you roll with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you roll with it
[SPEAKER_01]: The space like how many times would you estimate, let's say, just in any town, USA, a person would just continue to go home, fully, fully innocent, fully forgot, legitimately forgot.
[SPEAKER_01]: $3 value?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep, say $3 value.
[SPEAKER_00]: $3, I think of most people are like carrying on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep, carrying on, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: But so you see that, by the way, I left, I was, I wouldn't got groceries the other day.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I left the opposite happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like they were bagging my stuff up and I left a bag of groceries there Oh, yeah, and I got home and I was like
[SPEAKER_00]: Huh, and my wife later went to the store and she had her husband left the stuff here and gave credit.
[SPEAKER_00]: She got the gave her credit because they had it.
[SPEAKER_00]: They said, well, we had to put it back, but this is what it was.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she's like, they told her to go get it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sweet.
[SPEAKER_00]: So shout out to Jensen's, Jensen's super marker.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's go.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some good service.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was a couple days had gone by and they made me the credit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that's a good little community here.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the $3 value, they got, they got, they got milk there as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh hell yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's all there in the game.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're in the game.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're in the game.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're in the game.
[SPEAKER_01]: or that's 50 bucks.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just got away with not having to pay 50 bucks in a way with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Legitimately, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like now you have to like expand the energy to adhere to some moral code that doesn't matter by the way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, except for with you within you, see what I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when no one's looking, it's kind of like, and I'm not saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, look, you're a bad person.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're a good guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's about it's about where's this line drawn.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's say if it's a $3 something right $3 value, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't go in.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're like my time's worth more than that, you know, whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then let's say it happens again by your later, by the way, there should be some kind of an equivalency here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's say you overpaid three bucks and you realize how do you go back to the store for it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, then what if it's $20 a new over pay?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you go back or like you get your bill and you got under charge or you got over charge.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you got under charge by 30 bucks, oh, they missed the stake that I ordered.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, guys, I missed the stake or hey, you double charged me a stake.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Those should be somewhere around the same number in my opinion, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because that's for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not even a matter of the money.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, bro, like, it has to be a pretty weather either either one of those things from me to go back in there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, I think here's my credit card redo this stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just want to go home.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: So my, my, my,
[SPEAKER_00]: problem with the scenario isn't so much like when he loses his inconvenience, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But think of the person and there's a lot of people in there not that doesn't mean your bad person.
[SPEAKER_01]: But there are people who would be like, okay, let's say my wife is going back in there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, hey, you know, I owe you $3.
[SPEAKER_00]: My wife's doing that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, 100% of the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll do that, especially now that I think older, like I actually feel better about myself.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I'm like, oh, wait, they didn't charge for this or you know what happened?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know how you put like, I don't know if you get like,
[SPEAKER_00]: get the lower part of the grocery.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we get like club sodas.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we put it down there, whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then like, sometimes, you know, we'll forget it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'll just, I will feel, I won't feel bad because I'm like, who's getting hurt?
[SPEAKER_01]: But if I go and say, hey, I forgot to pay for it, I actually just feel better about myself.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you guys have such a good zeer?
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you ever think that they're,
[SPEAKER_00]: You're being taped like you're being video when I was young.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm like, well, this is a test This is a straight-up test like people are trying to get me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know I'm looking over my shoulders like oh, they got they think they're gonna get me, but no, I'm gonna roll back at their bit cuz you it is bad when you think about what you just did if you're like, okay
[SPEAKER_00]: If I just did something where I'd be embarrassed if people saw it, I, I, I figure someone's did taping it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That matter, fact.
[SPEAKER_00]: You just say this in your body, a big hate.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to assume when you're out there.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to assume that I'll just zero is videoing you as you're carrying out whatever you're doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And by the way, that was accurate a lot of times.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was video like people were video stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you have to have that in your mind that whatever I'm about to do right now, could be on the 24 hour news, you know, headline story for the next three weeks.
[SPEAKER_00]: You do something stupid and it could be there.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a good protocol right there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So where do you work or you could see this line being blurred?
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, the soda water on the bottom of the shopping cart, cashier didn't see it, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: real quick I had I made that I gave that explanation one time to some young officers in the military What explanation the little like be hey do assume that what you're about to do is going to be on the front page of What do you call like the the headline story on headline news because the front page No one cares about the front page of newspaper anymore, but when you're Clit you know when you click on the home page of the news website and you immediately see the video and it's gonna be you doing that thing Yes, and one of the kids was like
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, well, that doesn't make something right or wrong, you know, like it, and I was, I said, well, no, you're right, but it should give you a feeling if you're a little bit, hmm, what should I do here?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, take a moment and picture that this thing is good.
[SPEAKER_00]: It could still be
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you could do something that you might be embarrassed, which technically is right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Meaning you could technically get away with it, but you're still kind of holding your head and shame when everyone knows that's what you did.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[UNKNOWN]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[UNKNOWN]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, if the answers are not going to feel good about it, it should give you some hesitation on executing that action.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a very useful guideline for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know when people get rolled up, or maybe we'll get recorded doing stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember that whole thing with the couple that got busted at the Coldplay Concert?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's like the premier example, probably of history.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Of, hey, I just got rolled.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just got busted videoed doing something that I shouldn't have been doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if they would have had that thought, they're mind, they wouldn't have been doing that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And by the way, when you're in a public place, you know, that was crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, I cut you off in the three minutes ago.
[SPEAKER_00]: What were you going to say?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, now I'm going to add to the way you say that.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you imagine that someone's video taping you, you really mind your piece and cues, even more so than you might think.
[SPEAKER_01]: Think, because then we've talked about this where, you know, when you're following through doing something like on the DL or whatever, there's a legitimate party in mind that's like that miscalculates how bad you look.
[SPEAKER_01]: In miscalculates it.
[SPEAKER_01]: For whatever, and there's all this context in your mind and whatever and all this stuff, whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when you see it on a video tape or read the transcript or whatever, you know, when you see it displayed from a detached perspective and you see yourself doing this, you're like, bro, I didn't realize I looked like that for stealing all this candy or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: You see him saying, so it's like, bro, it's heavy.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, if you have that, those guidelines in your head, bro, that's gonna be probably more helpful than you think.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you can remember, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And to the point of this kid that, you know, said, well, that doesn't make something right or wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, hmmm, but it's an indicator.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and also this is another thing, you know, getting into the legality of things.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is something that when lay for teaching the Jati class, I would be talking about ethics and I would say, guys, you have to do what is legal.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because a lot of times,
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you can justify something.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you say, hey, echo, you just make sure you do the right thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, if I say that to you, what's the right thing?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a whole damn, you know, area, gray area.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because by the way, what you think is the right thing might need, but might not be what I think is the right thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, so that's why you have to make sure you're doing the legal thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because if you're doing something illegal, we know it's wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, can you say, can you override what's legal in some cases?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because sometimes the spirit of the law of what we're trying to make happen doesn't make sense in certain scenarios.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you as a leader have to be able to decide that sometimes.
[SPEAKER_00]: But your baseline?
[SPEAKER_00]: your baseline has to be what's legal.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's where you start from.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then if you start saying, well, this is the legal thing to do right now, but here's these nine exciting waiting circumstances that actually make doing the legal thing the wrong thing to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: So sometimes doing the illegal, the legal thing is the wrong thing to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And by the way, when we teach these types of classes, we will come up with examples where you're going to have to make a decision.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is against the rules, but it's the right thing to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is what happens.
[SPEAKER_00]: These are what makes leadership hard.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, what else saying when you said that,
[SPEAKER_01]: As a human, how easy you can slip down that little slippery slope in the whole soda water on the bottom of the shopping cart and check can be a slippery slope, but you do have to cross the threshold, but crossing that threshold of from moral to immoral can be very smooth transition sometimes.
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's say
[SPEAKER_01]: one instance you forget the thing I love the sort of water we'll call it on the bottom of the shopping cart you forget it right cashier doesn't notice and you get away whether you get to your car and you're like oh damn and you're in the mindset which is very common to be like oh wait I kind of got away with it right like no notices no harm no foul you know who cares
[SPEAKER_01]: Chalk it up to a score of that day, you know, a little what he could come up.
[SPEAKER_01]: You seem to say, um, and then, uh, and then maybe the next time, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: You go through the same soda water underneath there.
[SPEAKER_01]: You forget it, but right at the last minute, you, like, after you paid, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: You already paid and you're about to like push the card out with all the bags and you realize, oh, wait, you didn't ring that up, but they didn't notice.
[SPEAKER_01]: You seem to say, yeah, got away with the last time.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was a cool little score of that day, then you just continue on.
[SPEAKER_01]: and you made it right you could have like you already paid you got away with it but all it was a few more steps seems to say and you see how that can progress then before you know it you're like promise they're putting this underneath there maybe even putting some of the paper tell us yeah or a newspaper or a new paper like that just a cover to make sure they don't see it
[SPEAKER_01]: And I got pause plausible deniability.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, shit, forgot, you know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just sitting here trying to figure out why I hate stealing so much.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm coming, okay, first of all, first of all, when I was a kid, there was these little trend of these little trucks, these little tiny, they were like this a little bit slightly larger than a matchbox, but they had the rubber wheels that had like a monster truck
[SPEAKER_00]: and mine got stolen.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's brutal.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mine got stolen, and because of the way they were, they were all kind of a little different.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the kid that stole it, he got busted.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the teacher, you know, I went to the teacher crying or whatever, somebody stole my little thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she did whatever kind of freaking search and seizure on the class and do this kid got busted.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was like shame, it's weird.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't mad.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was I was like I felt ashamed for him And he felt ashamed like you could see it.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was he was a real pale like howly looking guy And he is face like was bright red tears in the whole nine yards and I thought man that that was not worth it Like I didn't even feel mad like I said like I was sad, but then when I saw him I was like do that sucks.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's the number one
[SPEAKER_00]: number two, in the teams, if you stole shit, bro, it was like, like, there was a guy to team one that stole something and they pulled his bird that day.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then one last story, I was on a ship and I had a knife, a cool badass knife.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I had it in my gear and somebody stole it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, I was, you, it was like, violation, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: And
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it does have a weird deep violation violation like freaking quality to it, and I think I'm a bike stolen one time, too, and I was a grown man.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I was going to pick up my kids on my bike.
[SPEAKER_00]: I walked into a house.
[SPEAKER_00]: Got, you know, hey, what's up, blah, blah, blah, go walk back outside my bike's gone.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that was a badass bike too.
[SPEAKER_00]: How much was it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Probably a thousand bucks.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I got that most bands at that point, but 10 years old brother makes it worse.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's like party.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like a you get you know like people say it I feel like I feel like I was personally Violated especially, you know, if people come home to their house being you know broken into or something like this
[SPEAKER_01]: The, I got my moped stolen is real common in Hawaii.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of moped's, you know, by the university, whatever, and people will just steal them.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got mine stolen.
[SPEAKER_01]: I felt the same thing, but it's like, right, it goes deeper than just, oh, shit, I don't have my moped anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because all of a sudden, nothing is safe, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, all of a sudden, the whole world is gone.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, everyone floss their vines.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like that's the game we're playing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, your stuff can just disappear, and now someone else owns it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Also to it feels like most people don't just casually just steal stuff from the guy next to him like on the deal like that It seems like I A part of me kind of understands these professional outfits that you know go and rob the truck or something like this is kind of like kind of that feel a little bit different Even though it's not But you we had a guy found our football team.
[SPEAKER_01]: He stole the whole like video game console from a guy's dorm room like through a few doors down.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's straight
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the kind of where we're all playing this video game, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: He has the PlayStation 2 or whatever, and we'd go to his room from, you know, on the weekends or whatever, and then one day he came home and it was gone.
[SPEAKER_01]: Things like what that like, it doesn't make sense or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he's kind of looked like, hey, did anyone like borrow it or whatever?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what you're talking about or whatever, and it was just gone.
[SPEAKER_01]: Coming to find out it was one of our teammates who lived in that dorm is like a few doors down came in because not everyone leaves their door like locked all the time And he just goes in take steels it and like hides it under the bed You know because it's like summertime was coming into it or and I like what they all and Everyone was kind of confusing how would that doesn't make sense like why would it like jot like I'm gonna come in like going your bag and like steal some stuff It just doesn't make sense
[SPEAKER_01]: But they go in his room, I don't know how they suspected him, but they go in his room when they lift up all the cushions from his bed, you know, like beds in the college dorm, and they have cushions and like a little storage thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like way in the back tucked in the back, really deliberately hitting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, intentionally hitting.
[SPEAKER_01]: And my friend, the guy's name is Davey, the guy who owned it on the video game console.
[SPEAKER_01]: he said like he went in there and when he saw it he felt like he was like bro was like I was like it's sexually assaulted seeing my stuff like just stowed away like freaking all covertly like that as it was like bro it was like these like bro my heart's starting beating all faceless like dang bro I was like I can imagine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because it's like, it's a weird slimy violation that just steal from, especially like, from your, yeah, people.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a huge part of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: A huge part of it is like yours.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're stealing from a person, as opposed to like a company, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, all right, I'm going to bring this back into the fall there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Next one.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again,
[SPEAKER_00]: There might be some ethical slide happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: Next one is dehumanization and disqualification.
[SPEAKER_00]: These occur when soldiers lose respect for others or think that they others are below them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Soldiers may feel like they are being forced to protect or help people who are not like them and who they do not like.
[SPEAKER_00]: During the Vietnam War, use of the derogatory terms, gooks or slopes indicated that some soldiers had dehumanized in the local people.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's a derogatory dehumanizing name in every war for every enemy that we have.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you got to be careful with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's one of those things where you have to dehumanize the enemy a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: And as you may have heard me say for us, the enemy dehumanized themselves through their behavior when you're
[SPEAKER_00]: more murdering and torturing the local populace, it's, they, they humanize themselves.
[SPEAKER_00]: But as a leader, you got to make sure that doesn't carry on and go to a point where, you know, you get a me lie mask or type scenario.
[SPEAKER_00]: Next one, moral disengagement, moral disengagement occurs when soldiers are so physically mentally psychologically and emotionally stressed and exhausted that they cognitively disengaged from moral and ethical reasoning or simply do not think about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: This usually takes the form of some kind of self-deception, lying to themselves, rationalization then's just to by the mean or even mindlessness or mind numbing.
[SPEAKER_00]: It often results in routineization of unethical behaviors.
[SPEAKER_00]: In some cases, a soldier may simply not think in terms of right and wrong, or may not be thinking at all, just acting without thinking.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just going through the motions is what we're doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is an interesting one, bracketed morality refers to a soldier assigning a different set of values or beliefs in one context, for example, wall deployed, as opposed to another while back in the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll put another way what happens in theater stays in theater, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas?
[SPEAKER_00]: bracketed morality.
[SPEAKER_00]: This doesn't count right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Miss placed loyalty.
[SPEAKER_00]: This refers to a soldier placing his loyalty to other soldiers, battle buddies, or the small unit higher than the organization's values, the seven army values.
[SPEAKER_00]: A soldier committing an unethical act to take care or cover for a squadmate is an example.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, this is one, this is one of the very slippery slope.
[SPEAKER_00]: You got my back, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I do.
[SPEAKER_00]: 100%, 99.9%, because if you do something that is illegally more on ethical, I don't got your back anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to know that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if I don't make that clear,
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a problem and if I on top of that give indications like small transcussions that I let fly and these those They'll test the waters too the boys are the troops are going to test the waters They're going to see what up your kids are going to test the waters.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, can I get away with?
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can't be surprised when you've let them slide and let them slide and let them slide when they slide right out from under reality
[SPEAKER_00]: Peer pressure, peer pressures, the influence of the group, or unit that can override a soldier's ability to act or think individually, obviously.
[SPEAKER_00]: Group think is similar to peer pressure.
[SPEAKER_00]: When the weight of the group's ideas overrides a soldier's ability to think and act alone, is a lack of moral courage.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a tough one.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a tough one.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're going to be the guy that stands up and again, in the me live massacre, what's interesting about that is it was,
[SPEAKER_00]: Hugh Thompson that flew and his helicopter saw what was happening and stopped one guy as soon as he went back to base and said hey they're killing people And base called out and said stop killing people.
[SPEAKER_00]: They stopped.
[SPEAKER_00]: They just needed someone to snap out of it Which means that entire company it snapped in no one snapped out
[SPEAKER_00]: and that's the list.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some of the constructs above can act alone on a soldier's thinking, emotional well-being, although they normally work in combination.
[SPEAKER_00]: When several of these constructs in combination influence a soldier, bad things may happen, arguably all nine of them influenced soldier and leader actions at MiLi and Abu Graib.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some are all played a significant role in the other incidents.
[SPEAKER_00]: Although there are volumes of academic research on these constructs, they really are not complicated for army leaders to understand or identify.
[SPEAKER_00]: Army commanders and leaders, both officers and NCOs are intelligence, educated, intelligent, educated, and well-meaning professionals.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, this is one of those things where it reminds me when we when we did the machete season about about the Rwanda massacre.
[SPEAKER_00]: They start talking about like the language that they use to describe the enemy, you know, and how that just became so common.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like what they did in Nazi Germany, you know, you scrub the juice as the the firm end and the cockroaches and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that just slowly just seeps in it just seeps in.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's what happens these little indicators.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's just a little indicator.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, oh, oh, there's some dehumanization happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, the tootsies are getting called cockroaches.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well, that's what's going down.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and you just so what they're saying here is you got to pay attention that as a leader.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and Go I'll it gets into it a little bit In a minute here that doesn't mean like oh, you know echo said this that means he's lost his mind No, it's it's an indicator.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a symptom, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't necessarily mean echoes lost his mind.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's going to freaking start murdering people and means I got to pay attention Make sure he's okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Make sure you know I bring him back a little bit
[SPEAKER_00]: There are awareness of what can happen, maybe all it takes to help mitigate these threats.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there you go.
[SPEAKER_00]: More important from the leader development perspective is that these psychological and emotional threats should be known and understood by commanders and leaders.
[SPEAKER_00]: They should discuss them at the command staff meetings during an after during after action reviews and integrate them into their pre-to-pilament training.
[SPEAKER_00]: Even more dogmaticly,
[SPEAKER_00]: They could be checklist items for leaders to carry with them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I totally agree.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, are you making sure what is go?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there dehumanization happening?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is the root to anization happening?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there a transfer of responsibility?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there authorization?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what?
[SPEAKER_00]: You got to make sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: The nine constructs are human issues.
[SPEAKER_00]: The armies in the business of leading human beings, individual, emotive, thoughtful, distinct people, no two are the same.
[SPEAKER_00]: You cannot produce the exact same model of them on an assembly line year after year.
[SPEAKER_00]: No rigid, scientific method will influence people to accomplish the mission.
[SPEAKER_00]: Training soldiers and developing them into leaders is the work of thoughtful craftsmen.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not the process of thousands of parts that come together to complete the organization.
[SPEAKER_00]: because individual free will exists, friction, uncertainty, psychological interaction, and chance will also exist.
[SPEAKER_00]: Combat leaders must understand the complex nature of human beings.
[SPEAKER_00]: And not just combat leaders.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're in a leadership position and you are, you better understand some human nature, because you got to deal with individual free will, friction, uncertainty,
[SPEAKER_00]: The statements below taken from investigations and discussions of the incidents above and others are examples of what leaders should listen for as signs that a soldier may be suffering from some of these threats.
[SPEAKER_00]: He displayed pure hatred for the enemy and often referred to them as savages.
[SPEAKER_00]: Are we going to protect the population or kill insurgents?
[SPEAKER_00]: When the world, you thought, was made of concrete turns out to be smoke and mirrors the results can be devastating.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just going to quote after quote.
[SPEAKER_00]: These are just so much quotes.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't care if I die.
[SPEAKER_00]: We are under man and no one gives a damn.
[SPEAKER_00]: Certain people are not to come back alive.
[SPEAKER_00]: I challenge you to imagine the frustration felt after being engaged in fire fights for several hours with the enemy and then capturing them only to have them release two days later because you're told the whole being area needs more information on them.
[SPEAKER_00]: The climate in the unit was toxic.
[SPEAKER_00]: We repeatedly found ourselves fighting the same enemy again and again.
[SPEAKER_00]: Kill all military-aged males on the objective.
[SPEAKER_00]: we need more kills so you can see these things are indicators and it says of course these quotes must be taken in context.
[SPEAKER_00]: As standalone quotes, they may have a negative or threatening meeting while in context, they may not mean a problem exists at all, context to matters.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if a leader hears remarks like the ones above, his radar screen should blip with a cautionary note, and it should start asking probing questions.
[SPEAKER_00]: In addition, leaders should look out for soldiers who behave erratically or anti-socialy, for example, a soldier torturing or killing dogs and cats would be an obvious warning sign.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I never saw anyone kill dogs and cats.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did I hear dehumanization?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did I, what's some other things on here?
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, did I hear people say we're under man and no one gives it to him?
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did I hear the military of the army?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, the Navy has great leaders and more, yeah, like, yeah, your judge in, they're just good and bad.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I've heard all these kind of things.
[SPEAKER_00]: Call them savages, got 100% myself included.
[SPEAKER_00]: But in context, like pure hatred for the enemy, that's a little different than name calling.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you can't, but all these things should be a little indicator.
[SPEAKER_00]: A little indicator.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, the guy doesn't like the enemy, of course, doesn't like the enemy, killed our friends.
[SPEAKER_00]: Guy hates the enemy, sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hate the enemy, they killed our friends.
[SPEAKER_00]: Guy hates the enemy and starts to hate everyone that looks like the enemy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now we might have an issue.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you got to pay attention.
[SPEAKER_00]: Interestingly, and coincidentally, after the me lie incident, Lieutenant General William Pears investigation found nine factors that influenced the tragic event.
[SPEAKER_00]: Lack of proper training, attitude toward the local people, which is a lack of cultural sensitivity, permissive attitude, where it's gonna let things slide.
[SPEAKER_00]: Psychological factors, obviously, organizational factors, nature of the enemy plans, orders, and commanders intent, attitude of government officials, and leadership.
[SPEAKER_00]: Leadership leadership leadership leadership.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, you know, we covered the Mila mascaro in the podcast, but you know, there was the I think one of the biggest problems was the inflation of the intelligence, you know, going from Like the division level like there may be VC in this area
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the brigade level is like there's suspected VC in the area and then the battalion level there's VC in the area at the company level their VC and that little, you know, that little game of not game, but the little efforts to make the person take something seriously, which was expanded each time at each level down.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's one of the major contributors.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not to mention Wheel of William Cali was a bad officer who'd fail those.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, a bunch of times.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you had a bunch of issues there.
[SPEAKER_00]: The same psychological constructs that were approximate cause of MII are still a threat to our soldiers and leaders and always will be.
[SPEAKER_00]: From a learning perspective, the nine constructs previously discussed are a subset of the nine factors found at the MII, the attitude toward the locals.
[SPEAKER_00]: Psychological factors, the nature of the enemy, plans and orders, leadership.
[SPEAKER_00]: This back dates back to 1968 and highlights the need to learn, really learn from the past.
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course, atrocities by U.S. soldiers have occurred throughout U.S. wars to include World War II with the killing of German prisoners that dotch out, dock out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, the killing of German and Italian prisoners at Biscari.
[SPEAKER_00]: These historical examples are powerful reminders of how the dark side of warfare can influence soldiers and leaders thoughts and motions and behaviors.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's the amount of war that America has fought and the amount of atrocities.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is like staggeringly small.
[SPEAKER_00]: We generally, I remember I got, I was getting interviewed and I got asked about like, almost like put on the spot about, I think it was about Abu Graib.
[SPEAKER_00]: and I kind of said, hey, if you want to put me on the spot, let's talk about Sand Creek Masker, let's talk about the Meal Eye Masker, those are horrific, but if you want to put me on the spot,
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a grave, you could do better, but you have to go back.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to go back to like, you know, Vietnam, you have to go back to 50, 60, 70 years.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to get, you know, those can now look, we brought up a bunch of examples, but they were much smaller on scale.
[SPEAKER_00]: Other recommendations, other curriculum additions we propose involve contextual and environmental challenges that soldiers and leaders might experience while deployed, teaching and discussing these and other challenges will better prepare future combat leaders for some of the challenges they could face.
[SPEAKER_00]: The list will not start to complete winning tactically but losing operationally or strategically.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is something we teach at the master, very specifically, winning tactically but losing strategically.
[SPEAKER_00]: You go out and you kill an enemy target, but you also kill four civilians.
[SPEAKER_00]: You might win tactically, but you're going to lose strategically.
[SPEAKER_00]: Even if you just destroy a bunch of infrastructure, you might win, because you were able to take out a bad guy, but you, and now have the local populist going, bro, you can't turn on our lights anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: Reporting of events truthful or otherwise, corruption and bribes, these are just things that, you know, is it good to say reporting of events, explain what that means to you, like my guy's new, if something happened, it was getting reported, you know, that's what we're doing, corruption and bribes, how do you handle those contractors in the battlestrap space, that's a real thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: lack of resources, unrealistic expectations, commanders out of retouch it with reality at low levels.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's good to talk about these things.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'll just stretch you think, good to talk about these things.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's good to present these things to people and say, this is what it's going to be like.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is what we're going to be facing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was talking to one of the guys from Task and Browser at the day, and we were talking about the corruption in the Iraqi army, soldiers that we were working with.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was like, you know, he was actually saying that he came to me and said, hey man, this is what's going on.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, do you want, are you, are you going to, do you want to handle it, don't you want me to handle it?
[SPEAKER_00]: He was like, oh, I got it boss.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like who's this is kind of a good story of just, you know, me saying, look dude, do you need me?
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, no, I'm letting you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you want me to handle it, I'll handle it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it was corruption.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was soldier, Iraqi soldiers not getting paid.
[SPEAKER_00]: Part of it was because it was crap.
[SPEAKER_00]: Part of it's because they're culture like their culture is hanging you know the boss gets a cut That's how we do it like the mob, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: some challenges on this list are clearly outside the average private or staff sergeant thought process and influence.
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, squad leaders and even platoon sergeants and platoon leaders may have very little influence over most of these things, but leaders at all levels should be aware of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because, look, listen, you might not be able to influence the fact of like, why are we here, why are we doing this thing?
[SPEAKER_00]: But you still have to make sure you frame those things correctly and you understand them and you can explain them and you can look out.
[SPEAKER_00]: for how your troops are taking them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because the last thing you want, your troops to be is like, well, the hell are we here?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't care anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, other challenges, leaders will have to be cognizant of and likely address include decisions regarding escalation of forest.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, dropping or planting weapons, no, no, do not do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: By the way, if you refer back to those earlier examples, one of those examples is you shoot someone and you drop a weapon on them and make it seem as if it was, that's why
[SPEAKER_00]: This is not a good move.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to tell you right now, this is not a good move, especially because the way the ROI is written someone doesn't have to be armed to be to be engaged.
[SPEAKER_00]: If they have to be doing something hostile, but what is hostile?
[SPEAKER_00]: Even hostile intent, like it looked like they were going to do this or that.
[SPEAKER_00]: When you plant a weapon on them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Even if you go, hey dude, I got scared.
[SPEAKER_00]: and I pulled the trigger and I shouldn't have you'll get in trouble but if you plant a weapon on them you're going to jail you see what I'm saying that's a huge difference yeah it's a huge difference uh war trophies you may know my thoughts on war trophies we should be allowed to take war trophies sure they should have to go through some kind of authorization but I brought home nothing for my rack
[SPEAKER_00]: And I want something, you know, and I don't even want that much, but I would have liked a little something, you know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he's like that would be, as an outsider.
[SPEAKER_01]: He feels like that would be a slippery slope scenario, so that's why it's a point.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're 100% right.
[SPEAKER_00]: But there should be a process.
[SPEAKER_00]: You should be able to say, hey, I found a nickel-plated AK47.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can demilitarize it, so it won't fire anymore, but I want that above my fireplace.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: And quite honestly, I'm not even that into it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just, it seems like it seems like other dudes would want.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I maybe I would have had something if we didn't have that role.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I'd have a nickel-plated AK above my fireplace.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because God knows we took a lot of AKs, man.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: They confiscated some AKs from these people.
[SPEAKER_01]: understated maybe way to put it is like breath so many of those things and from that time and all those experiences like they have sentimental value you know so all the way down to the point where like if there was a let's say a knife that was dropped on D-Day by somebody just dropped and buried under the sand in all the action whenever someone found it.
[SPEAKER_01]: That would like you could auction that off for like some same and that's just because of like second hand sentiment The value seems same and then for you out for the guys to be in it and happen to come across something That was part of like a huge event that they participated in Yeah, it makes sense to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I get why they do it, but there should be a protocol and by the way There is a protocol, but it's a kind of very senior level like
[SPEAKER_00]: if you're unit wants to bring back something that they captured, then you can do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But there is a protocol for it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's only for like the very senior people that could actually pull it off.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because they have time, the free of privates are out there in the streets keeping it real.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then I have time to fill it a bunch of paperwork.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I know, I wasn't thinking about filling up paperwork.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, they don't let it happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was a movie called Three Kings.
[SPEAKER_00]: You've watched it on the... Yeah, I didn't watch it, but I remember they found gold or something like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, yeah, so to me, that's like a obviously in some movie, but it's like how that slippery slope could turn out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Cause it's like...
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, they're in there and, you know, things are slowing down or whatever this is in a nutshell, things are slowing down and then they get word that there's gold like in a town that's like Saddam's gold and so not, you know, it's basically it's like no one's really going to claim it, you know, it's kind of up for grabs kind of a thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the war is like, it was, I think he was a desert stormer, I think, so it's like, they weren't doing anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they had time and, you know, the capability, so it's like, and then it, of course, it's a movie, so it, you know, he gets, uh, gets hectic, we'll say that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's why they have that role, but they should make it a little bit more flexible as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Revenge motives, clearly got to watch out for those.
[SPEAKER_00]: The need to control their own soldiers emotions.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry, the need to control their own and their soldiers' emotions.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the attitude of no one talks, no one will find out.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll take it right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is not a good move.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, these are the kind of things that a squad leader with two in search and a opportunity leader can directly control.
[SPEAKER_00]: They are individual, they are individual leader challenges, but also commander issues and influenced by command climate.
[SPEAKER_00]: The leader has to recognize when soldiers feel threatened and determined when he needs to resort to an escalation of force.
[SPEAKER_00]: The leader chooses or allows subordinates to choose to carry a spare weapon on a patrol to drop next to a shooting victim to make it appear the patrol is fired upon bad move.
[SPEAKER_00]: Leaders create a reality that justifies their actions when deployed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Leaders allow soldiers to give in to lesser instincts and succumb to bloodless.
[SPEAKER_00]: These are just mistakes, man.
[SPEAKER_00]: Leaders allow for revkilling for revenge.
[SPEAKER_00]: Clearly, the army does not condone these things, nor does it equivocate that they might be permitted in some circumstances.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nope, they're not.
[SPEAKER_00]: These are first and foremost individual choices and must be seen that way.
[SPEAKER_00]: But strong, educated, knowledgeable leaders and leadership can influence individual choices.
[SPEAKER_00]: Leaders must be able to recognize a non-combatant, understand the risks to and treatment of non-combatants, recognize and know the risks to legally protected sites, provide a clear commander's intent, identify questionable command,
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's everybody's responsibility.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you should be, and I was talking to some troops the other day.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if something goes above your level, you should be a little bit embarrassed.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, if the new guy sees something that shouldn't be going on, he should stop it.
[SPEAKER_00]: If his boss has to stop it, he should be like damn, I dropped the ball.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now if that guy,
[SPEAKER_00]: like the squad leader didn't stop it and now the now the platoon leader needs to stop it the squad leader should be a little embarrassed if the platoon leader didn't stop it and now the troop leader needs to stop it that platoon leader should be damn so you should handle it at the lowest level but that takes moral courage by the way
[SPEAKER_00]: And it also takes detachment because you're all wrapped up in the situation, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: We're all wrapped up in the situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're all emotional.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're letting something slide.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nope, you got to stay detached and you got to say, hey, if this gets out, how's that going to feel?
[SPEAKER_00]: How's that going to look?
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you say, oh, well, that's what happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't good, but here's what happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was combat.
[SPEAKER_00]: Shit got crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you're going to be saying, see what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, all of these things should be addressed by the institution and the command.
[SPEAKER_00]: These are leader issues.
[SPEAKER_00]: Contextually, they all begin with command climate and are all about leaders being able to control their own soldiers.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're their own and their own soldiers emotions.
[SPEAKER_00]: First, the leader must master self-awareness and self-management and then look at things in a political and emotional context.
[SPEAKER_00]: Only when he has mastered that, can he set the tone that will address other items?
[SPEAKER_00]: So the goal of the sessions should be real learning, not protection of reputations.
[SPEAKER_00]: Students could reflect on and discuss insights and lessons learned from their knowledge, experiences and understanding of the cases.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is if you do vinnets, it's recommending that you analyze and discuss real vignettes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then look for those nine constructs inside those vignettes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Integrating some of your similar vignettes into pre-dependent scenarios and training would also be an effective technique of learning.
[SPEAKER_00]: real learning versus via real learning, via self awareness and self management learning, growing and developing our lifelong choices that individuals and organizations make.
[SPEAKER_00]: They just don't happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: Being a lifelong learner is a conscious choice that requires a high level of self-awareness and self-management.
[SPEAKER_00]: Leaders need to be self-aware enough to know both what they do know and what they do not know and when and where and what they need to learn.
[SPEAKER_00]: For example, life-long learners must be self-aware enough to know that they lack knowledge in some areas, and then take steps to learn or improve in those areas, that self-management.
[SPEAKER_00]: The leaders who think they know it all or have nothing else to learn are setting themselves, their units, and their missions for failure or worse.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have introduced some specific topics we feel leaders need to know in a combat environment.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that is important.
[SPEAKER_00]: Real leader development begins with one's self.
[SPEAKER_00]: The more knowledge of human behavior and the human dimension leaders have, the more they will understand and potentially influence it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Firm knowledge of the physiological and emotional constructs and reoccurring themes we have recommended can be a starting point.
[SPEAKER_00]: For example, leaders' thoughts and emotions may drive them to seek some kind of irrational revenge if the tragic loss of some of their soldiers to an immoral adversary.
[SPEAKER_00]: How, and if leaders regulate this, revenge motive both cognitively and emotionally will affect their decision cycle, their ethical reasoning, and ultimately their behavior.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, to sum all this up, and combat leaders must be aware of the many negative psychological and emotional effects that the stresses and violence of combat may have on their shoulders.
[SPEAKER_00]: The nine constructs that we have discussed,
[SPEAKER_00]: sound, and sound planned training throughout our army can educate, train, and develop our leaders to recognize threatening signs in their soldiers, recognize threatening signs in themselves, ethically reason and recognize an ethical situation that may not be self-evidence.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'll close now with the self aware leaders should habitually ask themselves, and they're trusted subordinates.
[SPEAKER_00]: If there are any unhealthy signs or indicators in their unit, self aware commanders should also habitually ask their subordinates what ethical challenges their units are facing or may face in the future.
[SPEAKER_00]: If this ability or knowledge requires a checklist, so be it.
[SPEAKER_00]: The material for the checklist and the curriculum is based on years of lessons learned from our army of learning, organization, so, there you go, real lessons there, those are real lessons and those should be focused on,
[SPEAKER_00]: extensively, extensively because if you're not ready for a man, they will creep up and you'll end up with groupthink and you'll end up with peer pressure and you'll end up in these morally ambiguous situations and make him bad decisions.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, know your team.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what we're doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Also,
[SPEAKER_00]: in order to be mentally and emotionally fit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Guess what?
[SPEAKER_00]: You gotta be physically fit, too.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're getting after it, dude.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're getting after it.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're lifting.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're running.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're boxing.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're doing jiu-jitsu.
[SPEAKER_00]: We need fuel.
[SPEAKER_00]: We recommend jock of fuel.
[SPEAKER_00]: Get some protein.
[SPEAKER_00]: Proteins.
[SPEAKER_00]: Proteins kind of what you need.
[SPEAKER_00]: Kind of across the board.
[SPEAKER_00]: You need protein.
[SPEAKER_00]: We got protein.
[SPEAKER_00]: We got ready to drink protein, got powdered protein.
[SPEAKER_00]: It tastes delicious, like dessert.
[SPEAKER_00]: So check that out.
[SPEAKER_00]: We also have energy.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have time more.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have joint warfare, I met another person, told me their mom put their mom on joint warfare, she's feeling good, she is like arthritic, you know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then one more personal individual that I talked to, the mom is drinking ghost.
[SPEAKER_00]: and feeling like sharp, you know, like a step up little, you know, little cognitively fading because getting old, putting down that go, getting the game on.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you need fuel, which you do, check out Jockelfield.com or just go to your store.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're in so many stores across America, right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can get the good, clean fuel.
[SPEAKER_00]: The chocolate fuel.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there a new flavor out from oak?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, raspberry gelato.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a good one, obviously.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's very delicious.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's cereal.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Pretty cereal is very difficult to beat.
[SPEAKER_00]: The chocolate's delicious.
[SPEAKER_00]: Vanilla's delicious, you know, like it's, it's so good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a good dessert.
[SPEAKER_00]: Which one have you tried?
[SPEAKER_00]: Didn't that new one?
[SPEAKER_00]: The gelato?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Almost tasty.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we're kind of you know, we're getting better taking us less iterations to make something taste good in our testing process You know, just refined So check that out Jockelfield.com also check out origin us a.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: We make close We make close here in America with freedom
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, they're built by freedom.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no communism there.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no slavery.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's just freedom.
[SPEAKER_00]: Jeans, boots and whatever you need, t-shirts, hoodies, jackets.
[SPEAKER_00]: We got it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wallets, belts.
[SPEAKER_00]: We got all kinds of stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's all made 100% America because we want America to win.
[SPEAKER_00]: Check out Orgen USA.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: Get yourself some clothing.
[UNKNOWN]: I'm too sure to clothing this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Also don't forget soccer store discipline equals freedom.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, we got some shirts and hats and hoodies on there Some cool merch a little bit more than merch.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's beyond merch.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know Quality stuff also shirt locker new design every month He didn't already know people seem to like down subscription scenario by the way It's being a freedom independent today coming out
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you release a shirt for independence?
[SPEAKER_00]: I already.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, not yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you want to get the jump on it, because sometimes it's so quick.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it takes a few days.
[SPEAKER_00]: They usually are pretty different.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this one is solid, this year's one is solid.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, if you want to get the jump on it, you want to get the heads up when it goes live, where you can get it, just sign up for the email, the email list there, front of the thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't spam, no spam.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm anti spam in that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, talk about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all useful information for that if you want to get the jump on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But, yes, so this year, 26 independent states shirt, it will be available very soon.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know exactly when, but very soon.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, it's all on JockelStore.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: right on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, check out echelonfront.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: We teach leadership.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we have our next event, next big event.
[SPEAKER_00]: We do events all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: But we have a next big event.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the master in San Diego, California, July 8th through the 10th.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to learn about leadership, bring your bring some team members.
[SPEAKER_00]: Bring them down there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let them learn extreme ownership.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: We teach the skills of leadership online as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: We got books about leadership.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've written a bunch of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dave Berks wrote one called Needlead.
[SPEAKER_00]: Rob Jones wrote one called Put Your Legs on.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've written a bunch of kids books too.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can check those out.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you need steak, you can go to primalbeef.com or call rattlecraftbeef.com and you can get the best steak.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't settle for the crappy steak.
[SPEAKER_00]: Get the good steak, because that's what you want.
[SPEAKER_00]: Framalbeef.com, call rattlecraftbeef.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you want to help service members active and retired, you want to help their families who want to help Goldstar family, check out Mark Lee's mom, mom Lee, she's got an incredible charity organization.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it helps out our teammates and our military and first responders.
[SPEAKER_00]: So much, she's just amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to America's Mighty Warriors.org.
[SPEAKER_00]: Also check out heroes in horses.org.
[SPEAKER_00]: in the mountains.
[SPEAKER_00]: Jimmy Mays got the organization beyond the brotherhood.org.
[SPEAKER_00]: Check out the swim happening in August.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's selling very, very quickly.
[SPEAKER_00]: It might be sold out by now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Go check it out beyond the brotherhood.org and then warriors in need.org and strongholdrescue.org.
[SPEAKER_00]: Those are all great people running great organizations.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to connect with us,
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm at Jaco Willink.
[SPEAKER_00]: Echoes out Echo Charles.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just be careful because there is a mind monster in there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Echo and I were about to hit record.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sitting there and I got I was checking something on social media.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then three minutes of my life was gone gone and I had to shut that thing down and say, Echo Charles, you see what happened there?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it what happened?
[SPEAKER_00]: And bro, I told you right away, I go, I was enjoying that.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it put me right in the comfort zone.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was seeing a bunch of things.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, little, did you get to a little surfing?
[SPEAKER_00]: Something's ripping on guitar?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, let's see what this neck.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was just serving them up, serving them up, serving them up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just like a drug dealer serves up heroin.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what's happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: So pull that needle out of your arm, shut that damn phone off and go out and do something productive in the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, also right now, as we're sitting here comfortably, there are uniformed men and women around the world, holding the line and protecting America and our way of life.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we are grateful to all of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: We are also grateful to our police law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, as well as all other first responders.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for holding the line here at home.
[SPEAKER_00]: And everyone else out there.
[SPEAKER_00]: You gotta pay attention.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's going on?
[SPEAKER_00]: You gotta pay attention.
[SPEAKER_00]: These little signs.
[SPEAKER_00]: You gotta recognize the signs in your people.
[SPEAKER_00]: You gotta recognize the signs in yourself.
[SPEAKER_00]: In order to do that, you have to be detached.
[SPEAKER_00]: But also, we have to all the time as often as we can.
[SPEAKER_00]: Look back.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have to look back.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have to do that debrief.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have to do that after actions review.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not to dwell, not to highlight the bad, not to second-guest decisions and not to criticize from that hindsight being 2020.
[SPEAKER_00]: But we have to look back in order to move forward.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have to look back and learn in order to get better.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is what we are doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's all we've got for tonight, and until next time, this is Echo and Jocco.