[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, welcome back to the podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is an incredible podcast with a retired law enforcement officer who has taken a German shepherd into the hospital as a deterrent for all sorts of bad things that can happen in hospitals and it's just an amazing podcast about some of the things that she's dealing with and some of the behavioral questions that she had.
[SPEAKER_00]: So very, very different podcasts from some of the other ones with a very particular job with the working dogs.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I know you guys are going to
[SPEAKER_00]: Love all of this and yeah, let's get into the pot Hello, hello good morning.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is Tom Hello there.
[SPEAKER_01]: How are you?
[SPEAKER_00]: Good.
[SPEAKER_00]: How you doing?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm good So my name's Jennifer Vaughn by the way.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a Traditional canine in a non-traditional environment
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a Czechoslovakian working dog in a hospital.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got from a vendor trained for five weeks.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's all around, he's a phenomenal dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: My hang-up is his reactivity to other dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't really react to adults.
[SPEAKER_01]: but he's reactive to small kids as they move weird and act weird.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: Our different.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he's reactive to them.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've never let him get close.
[SPEAKER_01]: He kind of builds real quick with them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't have it in less any small children get close to him, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're, we're part of a security team.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we go to work every day.
[SPEAKER_01]: We walk to the hospital.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've walked by, but not close to any small kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: Lots of times I just turn around if these are filled with, because I don't want to get into that.
[SPEAKER_01]: There'll be a time when there's been times where the elevators open and there's a small child right there.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just let the door close and head up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just little things that have,
[SPEAKER_01]: been hard for me to kind of figure out, how do I go about changing this?
[SPEAKER_01]: His obedience is pretty good.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would love to get him to a higher level of obedience.
[SPEAKER_01]: But as of right now, he's probably at two.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's two out of three.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would love to get to his right.
[SPEAKER_01]: His read calls good.
[SPEAKER_01]: I let him out.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also live in Upstate, New York.
[SPEAKER_01]: I let him out in our backyard.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have deer everywhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're at it's everywhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bird squirrels, you name it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he doesn't chase.
[SPEAKER_01]: He stays put when I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he's good about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I really need, in my wheelhouse, which is very limited.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the first K9 I've ever owned.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's the first German shepherd I've ever owned.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a boxer to have a six year old female boxer.
[SPEAKER_01]: which they live in harmony together.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no issues.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have some videos I can send to of us walking past.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a kennel on the spot that I walk by.
[SPEAKER_01]: We live out in the country.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I walk by this kennel, which is on the corner of his throat.
[SPEAKER_01]: And trying not to get him to react.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was trying a lot of e-cowler corrections and nothing was touching that bill.
[SPEAKER_01]: I ended up with it, like a tug toy, I guess.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's made out of the juice and it's small.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's got one handle on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I busted that out and he grabbed it and then he would kind of try to buy and not be as built up.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've noticed that it's decreased a little.
[SPEAKER_01]: So my big hangups gonna be in July we're going to the beach in Maine.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, next month.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I obviously need to walk them on the beach.
[SPEAKER_01]: I left it at home last year.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just got him.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I left him at home last year and we're together 24 seven.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't leave each other side.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when I left him, I just didn't like the feeling of leaving someone else in charge of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't play.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I feel like you should be with me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like he's, you know, him and I are a pair.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, but really working.
[SPEAKER_01]: that reactivity is what I need to just.
[SPEAKER_01]: Trying to.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let me ask you this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm interested.
[SPEAKER_00]: How did you get involved with the security team?
[SPEAKER_00]: With not, are you, are you law enforcement?
[SPEAKER_01]: I am.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am former.
[SPEAKER_01]: I retired.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did 25 years at a local sheriff's department.
[SPEAKER_01]: Cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had a little experience with dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had a deaf boxer who I trained.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, just out of a flu, and all my dogs blocked great on the leash.
[SPEAKER_01]: I always had no problem teaching all my dogs a good heal.
[SPEAKER_01]: And neutrality wasn't bad with any of my boxers.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, with him, it's a different dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a whole different ball of X.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's, he's from a long line of working dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's not patrol trained.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's not a bite dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is just, is he just doing sent detection and stuff?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep, he does, he does sense detection and he does, uh, tracking.
[SPEAKER_01]: We train with some local police departments.
[SPEAKER_01]: On a monthly basis, by monthly basis, we train, um, which is great, because boys that get us energy out.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, right now, he's currently laying from me, just being a great dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, he's so good.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just limited in my
[SPEAKER_01]: and in such a intense dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Big dog too, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, he's huge.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's not.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's 90.
[SPEAKER_01]: His ear touches my elbow.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not that I'm a tall person.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm five four, but his ears touch my elbow.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's huge.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's talk about what you're doing so far.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the kid thing and then, like, I think the big thing would be the kids inside the inside and when he's working, I would assume, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's probably the biggest thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's not like a dog park inside the hospital or anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, there's, I mean, there are dogs, so there's people who bring in and I'm going to call this service dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Anna's a dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so he will react to those.
[SPEAKER_01]: We had a German Shepherd puppy walk by yesterday and I just distract.
[SPEAKER_01]: I only do what I know and I don't know that much.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I'd react to reroute or I turn around or if he does look at him, I typically
[SPEAKER_01]: reaction is is not is intense like I'm just trying to keep an eye on him offer food if I need to get up and turn around I get up and turn around because you know here's the thing if these dogs because they're not service dogs turn around and start birds and he will bark back.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think that's just, you know, check, check line, sheper, I mean, it's pretty, that's a pretty easy thing to call.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, that dog's gonna probably bark back in some way.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, okay, okay, so I know what you said, you said that you used some food, you get up, you turn around, you go the other way, which is totally fine, that's pretty successful.
[SPEAKER_00]: But in situations where you can't,
[SPEAKER_00]: So here's a couple of things that I want to start off with is, so dogs who are not typical, like dogs who aren't exposed to children or de-sensitized to children.
[SPEAKER_00]: And even if they are sometimes, if it's not their own kids in their own house, they can be kind of suspicious of these kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's a pretty normal thing for the reasons you already said, like kids move different, act different, sound different, smell different, everything is different.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's pretty normal.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's kind of a fork in the road here.
[SPEAKER_00]: My suggestion is always to try to desensitize the kids if you can.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, so I guess there's three different paths really, the problem with the sense, so desensitizing just to define would be to get more kids around him a more often, and then basically exposing him, exposing him, exposing him.
[SPEAKER_00]: So exposing him to good experiences from a distance, the kids aren't petting, they're not touching, they're not even looking or talking, they're just around.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the more you can get around kids It kind of can become this like fear suspicious type of reaction where if the dog only sees kids once in a blue moon and of course You kind of get all different with them and handle them a little bit differently.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, oh, I don't know about these kids things So Yeah, yeah, and so that so again, we'll kind of go down the three different paths here, but
[SPEAKER_00]: the best option would be desensitization and counter-conditioning and they kind of blend together.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the desensitization again is to expose him to as much of the children aspect as you can.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what that looks like is going to go into a park from a distance, going to wherever there's kids playing from a distance, walking around the neighborhood and basically just sitting there
[SPEAKER_00]: and pain him while he's being exposed to kids and there's like a slip I don't know if it's slippery slope is a good way to put it but there is a fine line where let's say you go out put him into a sit he puts his butt in the ground kids are in the distance maybe they're walking maybe it's a busy neighborhood maybe kids are getting off the bus whatever there's a
[SPEAKER_00]: Digest and process what these little humans are and so I think we're really quick to just say, hey, look at me and get paid.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't worry about it over here, distract and avoid.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're really quick to do that and there is a time in a place for that, but in the beginning stages like my first low hanging fruit.
[SPEAKER_00]: that I do, like the easiest thing to do, is over exposure to the kids in a more in a safer environment.
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously not the elevator, where they're a foot away from each other, but if you can get him around other kids and allow him to soak it in.
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, there's that fine line of when we get around kids or anything that the dog is fearful of.
[SPEAKER_00]: We tend to just be like, Holy crap, here here, food, food, food, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang,
[SPEAKER_00]: I just stand there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes dogs need an opportunity to really digests this information and understand it and process it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've done this so many times with really leash reactive dogs where they've never gotten an opportunity to process the other dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: They just react.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, you'd think about reaction like this, just to define it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, it would be like if you were afraid of snakes or spiders or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: When you see that thing, whatever that trigger is, snakes, spiders, or in your case, maybe even other dogs or kids, the reaction is to, boom, a lot of times.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, they immediately just react, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not thinking.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then you just say, hey, wait a minute.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's take a deeper look.
[SPEAKER_00]: So my goal always, if I can, which is,
[SPEAKER_00]: Less likelihood of this happening, especially with the mature dog, is to get the dog exposed to the trigger, soak it up, understand it, live with it, deal with it, know what it is, and build your confidence around that.
[SPEAKER_00]: a lot of people, particularly with kids if they're not at home or in their life at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like this fact, this drive by where the dog only has four seconds to really understand what the heck that thing was.
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't really understand it and process it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So then the second part of that is, if the dog is, so let's say the dog is staring at kids from a distance, and a lot of times what I do is I will just close the gap as the dog progresses in a positive way, in a good way, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So if they're doing really good, I'll get a little closer.
[SPEAKER_00]: If they're doing really good, I'll get a little closer, etc.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then if the dog looks at me, I'll pay the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: But oftentimes, I won't cue the dog to look at me because I want the dog to naturally just soak it all in.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if they look at me, they get paid.
[SPEAKER_00]: Does that make sense?
[SPEAKER_01]: it does.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I have a little, so I'm Friday, it's actually tomorrow.
[SPEAKER_01]: They do a little festival in the yesterday or last Friday.
[SPEAKER_01]: They do it in a park across the street from the hospital.
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, a lot of hospital employees.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there's several people with children, there's people with dogs, I want to take you over there, obviously.
[SPEAKER_01]: So last week, I kind of put him in a down and we observed for about 20 minutes.
[SPEAKER_01]: He just sat there.
[SPEAKER_01]: He watched, however, a dog came walking by the sidewalk with someone who was just walking their dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: The good thing is the dog was non-reactive.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was able to, I mean, I used the toy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had the toy out.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, look, can he look?
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, dog went by.
[SPEAKER_01]: But again, I'm not really given him that opportunity to kind of figure it out for himself.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and so the the time in a place like let's say okay, so the time in a place for you to do so there's two different avoidances here there's There's like complete avoidance which is Look over here like you're a clown like look over here pay attention to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's nothing to see like you're really just like a movie like you're just distracting very like animated
[SPEAKER_00]: And then there's like the constructive avoidance, which is asking the dog to do a behavior to basically avoid the freak out.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this constructive avoidance is obviously much better, and I've kind of coined that many many years ago, just because I want to people to understand like there is levels of avoidance and for you to say hey look and the dog looks at you and then you pay the dog That's using constructive avoidance.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're asking the dog to do something constructive
[SPEAKER_00]: but you all are you are definitely avoiding that situation, you know, and so that's a better way to do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But and and what you're what you did is and again, I want to be clear that it's not a not neither of those things are wrong in my opinion.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just think you have to match the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: with what you're doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Which means if the dog is actually doing like really good with just processing information from these other dogs air sent in getting comfortable, I don't touch the toy.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for an example, that dog walked by with her owner.
[SPEAKER_00]: If and you said it was a neutral dog, what I would start trying to do and this goes away really quick as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: So but with the first thing I would try to do is just let him
[SPEAKER_00]: let the whole process happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: If he sits there and he just looks and he's neutral, bang you pay the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that way, the dog is getting rewarded for that really good behavior.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the dog had an opportunity to actually soak up all that information and start to develop a desensitizing process.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what you want.
[SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of people once they have a reactive
[SPEAKER_00]: fear or uncertainty or insecurity, which is most dogs who are reactive to be honest.
[SPEAKER_00]: We take away their opportunity to really think about what's going on, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: We want them to
[SPEAKER_00]: think about the process.
[SPEAKER_00]: We want them to make a better decision.
[SPEAKER_00]: We want them to be okay with the other dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then there's another one.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's another one that's what we call counter-conditioning, which is kind of like a blend of this stuff where counter-conditioning essentially is I did this with a couple of my dogs.
[SPEAKER_00]: I did it with one of my dogs named Burley,
[SPEAKER_00]: Basically any time he saw a dog, I would tell him to focus and then pay him, so I'm using constructive avoidance.
[SPEAKER_00]: But basically what ends up happening is, is we counter condition the dog to where now when he sees another dog on a walk, he'll look up at me and then I pay him.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we counter-conditioned.
[SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of times, in the way they do is very simple.
[SPEAKER_00]: You see another dog or you see a potential trigger and you don't know how it's gonna go.
[SPEAKER_00]: You basically ask for the focus command every single time that your dog sees a trigger and then they get paid.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then therefore the dog will go,
[SPEAKER_00]: when they see other dogs or they see the trigger, they see a kid, they'll look up and try to get paid.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's counter-conditioning.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you've basically conditioned the dog that every time that you pass the trigger, whatever it is, the dog is going to look at you instead.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you've countered the initial reaction if that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did that in the very beginning.
[SPEAKER_01]: We lay in a like a main entrance area where there's a plenty of it at traffic.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and in the very beginning, when I first got him, he'd been there about a year, just a bit over a year.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I late, I put him in the down and I, I did a like a little self-correct.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would put my foot on the leash and just in case he got up quickly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_01]: And just when people would walk by, I was teaching him to look at me and pay them.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was doing that for a long time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I also don't want to go over that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Give him treats all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, for.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, right, right, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: behavior.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know that there's a window in there somewhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there is only two.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know, maybe we're just not that crap.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, especially if he's tug motivated don't.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's not his his actual reward for his his detection his reward for detection is actually a ball of the string on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't give him that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just give something that we play
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, but what is he, what does he love the most?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if you could use he that reward toy for finding odor is he sells a exotic control.
[SPEAKER_00]: He just you probably want to keep keep that that way, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'd like to separate that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was one of the ways that I was taught in the training that we shouldn't forget out for, you know, just
[SPEAKER_01]: at Rooster.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do see some handlers just kind of bring out their toy whenever, and I try not to try to just make it special, especially at his age as he ages to be different.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So okay, walk me through, walk me through during the hospital, and so I know that you said that you pay him and then you avoid like, what is your goal?
[SPEAKER_00]: What is your goal when you see other dogs with him?
[SPEAKER_01]: other dogs and kids and children is neutrality.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it doesn't have to be complete ignorance.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just just a lot less of that bill.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he sees on these like head is up, shoulders are up.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he's like, yeah, he's perked up.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's, you know, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just want neutrality is all I care about.
[SPEAKER_01]: He can look at him.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't care.
[SPEAKER_01]: He can, you know, air sent them.
[SPEAKER_01]: He can do all the things, but I just want to make sure that he's not reactive.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what do you do when he's able to walk by a kid and he's like, whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, yeah, so neutrality and just to define neutrality for me and again, this is subjective dog turning in a hole is extremely subjective for me neutrality is the dog is neutral around the trigger right a neutral and and triggers can be lawnmowers vacuums hockey sticks kids cars dogs chipmunks whatever so for me it's just the dog is in a really neutral state of mind
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're in their nice and relaxed, and they're not, they're not peaking where they're going.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh god, there's a kid right and they're they're also not you know being overly stimulated in a way of excitement and it's just a neutral like right like when you meet somebody you shake their hand nice to meet you.
[SPEAKER_00]: How are you neutral versus oh my god so nice to meet you or just like hey what's up don't really like like your neutral right you're right in the middle where you're
[SPEAKER_00]: your cool common collective.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's neutrality.
[SPEAKER_00]: We want our dogs to be neutral, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: We want them.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't want them to go overboard on either end of the spectrum.
[SPEAKER_00]: We want them to just be like, hey, what's up?
[SPEAKER_00]: I could take your leave it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I could care less.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's going to happen?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's neutrality.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what do you do when he does get into that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like his ears perk up, and then maybe he starts barking.
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you do when when that happens?
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, so he's walking moving.
[SPEAKER_01]: I will I will turn around.
[SPEAKER_01]: If he's looking and he started to build.
[SPEAKER_01]: I usually get out of trees.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I've been using some like really high value.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have some natural B sticks.
[SPEAKER_01]: I pulled that out and I get him to look at me and then I give it back to him by that time the dog had walked by especially if he's in a down.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's pretty easy because like they walk by pretty quick and it's kind of a movement now for dog is going to lunge a him and bark at him.
[SPEAKER_01]: I will just spin around it and get out there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't blame you there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would do the same.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when when he does start to react maybe unwarrantedly like maybe he sees a kid in the distance or whatever or even he starts to build.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you ever correct them for it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Just to just to discourage it or disrupt it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have not.
[SPEAKER_01]: I if he sees a kid in a distance and he starts to build.
[SPEAKER_01]: I try to just keep an eye on what he's doing, watch, and I also try to keep on the child too, because some kids aren't holding hands with their parent.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, they're just kids and they're just run wild.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, just make sure they come up to the dog because I don't want that to happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: That would be bad.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I don't want to get threatened.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I have let them just watch them walk by.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he looks at me and I'm like a matri.
[SPEAKER_01]: So most of the time, as long as he's in a down, now for walking or walking towards a small kid,
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, it depends on how wide the hallway is or where I'm at, like, because sometimes I can just walk by and it's on issue.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, he, I've had some people that I know come up to me and they've had children with them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I put him in a down and they were just looking at him and he's barked at him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: And what do you do?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, just a wolf.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do tell him no.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do correct that point.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so what are you, how do you correct him when you say that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Just a null and put him back in and down because usually he pops up in Marks.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Back through that, down in a null.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So my recommendation there is what kind of, so okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you want to discourage the barking from happening, especially if it's unwarranted, like you said.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if so if the dog barks again unwarrantedly, then which then what you want to do is use your correction.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now a correction, again, to define could be anything your dog finds punitive.
[SPEAKER_00]: It could be a no.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've had dogs, if you look at them the wrong way and they're like, oh god, it's sorry.
[SPEAKER_00]: You could use a leash, you can use a collar, you can use a harness, you can use whatever the heck.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't, to me, as long as it's effective, that's what matters, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's effective and fair.
[SPEAKER_00]: So once you, so what I would recommend is start trying to correct them with your leash.
[SPEAKER_00]: to see if that helps discourage the behavior even more.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because let's think about this, okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: So right now, and I want to go point of view of the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have a check working line, young dog, is he fixed or not fixed?
[SPEAKER_01]: He's not.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so he's an intact working line dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that is something to consider, because those dogs are gonna be much more reactive to things.
[SPEAKER_00]: and when I say reactive just they're going to be more suspicious they're going to be they're not going to be like I don't really care what happens in this environment I'm just here for the ride like a golden retriever or something these types of dogs are definitely more
[SPEAKER_00]: more, they're going to be more likely to be suspicious and reactive.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not necessarily in a bad way or whatever, but, um, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So now using the correction.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's say he starts to build or he lets out a wolf.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the fact that he's doing this like wolf type of thing, that's like a buck, that's like a, that's just like a warning shot.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, hey, hey, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not like, um, long-aided, super barky, like,
[SPEAKER_00]: that sort of thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's just, so you have to kind of pick your battles there, but again, like maybe like a little leash correction to say, hey, knock it off would be okay, but that tells me that his natural instincts of an intact young Czech working nine dogs are just coming out where he's in this environment where there's a lot of stimulation and a lot of what
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's just letting them know like, hey, what are you doing?
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me see your hands type of thing, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's pretty normal.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for me personally, like you have to really define, and this is your personal preference.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to really define like what you're okay with and what is appropriate.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because in a normal environment, I wouldn't even...
[SPEAKER_00]: Really think too much about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the dog's going, hey, I don't know what's going on over there.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, that sort of thing like, hey, what are they doing?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that sort of thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if it becomes more than that where it's like, you know, get out of here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Who are you and that looks like, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So that would be more of a correction.
[SPEAKER_00]: and an environment where it's really inappropriate and not tolerated, like, again, maybe in the hospital, when he's supposed to be working, that's when you can, you can correct it a little bit more seriously.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's, listen, it's the same thing with humans, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you know this more than I do.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like the punishment.
[SPEAKER_00]: it has to have to be fair to the crime right so somebody rolls a stop sign they're not going to jail for twenty five years you know what i mean it's so it's the same thing like if he's in the hospital and he barks habitually or even aggressively that's where like a big punishment comes in like no never never never do that again what are you doing
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're, and again, obviously, the context is different in different environments, like if he's in your car or if he's in your house or if he's on the leash, that's a little bit different in your home.
[SPEAKER_00]: But when you're working, you have to kind of define like what is appropriate and what isn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you're finding the reactivity to get worse or progressively getting worse,
[SPEAKER_00]: that's where the correction comes in.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I want to be, excuse me, I want to be clear that when you're trying to do this, it's kind of a mixed bag, because when he sees a kid, like for an example, you're in the elevator, you're riding it.
[SPEAKER_00]: He sees a kid, the door's open, like those are situations where you're going to have to really manage him.
[SPEAKER_00]: So putting it into a
[SPEAKER_00]: Good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Doors open.
[SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't react.
[SPEAKER_00]: He gets paid with food.
[SPEAKER_00]: Whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do that for a lot of reasons.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Door could open and there could be another dog out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that dog be an Amazon dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: As well.
[SPEAKER_01]: No joke.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, so I try to like be super proactive on the elevators.
[SPEAKER_01]: Usually he's behind me and a set.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's always in the set on the elevator, but typically he's behind me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Even in the stairwell, I make them walk behind me, small hallways, I make them walk behind me in case somebody comes out of a doorway quickly or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I do try to do the proactivity, but, you know, we're gonna, there's a big momentum.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I would like to really, I'm striving for that neutrality.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and so we're recording poor behavior.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and that's so so there's a combination of things and so with the way that I would look at this is it's not going to be a one-size-fits-all at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be a combination of things and it's going to be predicated off of the seriousness of his reaction and when he does it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when, again, when you are inside the hospital and he reacts, you're going to want to really let him know really clearly that's not okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: And right now, you are correcting him, but you're only using like the first line of defense for a correction, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're only using the no, which is your voice, which is okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if it continues to happen, you have to look at the, like, look at it in a, in a, like a punishment system.
[SPEAKER_00]: Where if he continues to kind of break that law over and over and over again, it's like, okay, maybe he's not getting this like maybe the punishment isn't enough and that's where maybe you want to switch to like a leash correction
[SPEAKER_00]: to make it more clear that that's inappropriate.
[SPEAKER_00]: It'd be the same exact thing if you got out of ball that your dog could care less about.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not gonna sit there and try to be like, try to pay him for the thing that you really want him to do with the ball he doesn't care about.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then you would switch to, well, I'm gonna get some stake or check in or a different ball, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you go, ooh, I like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're okay, now I'm gonna use this.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the same exact principle when you're doing any punishment.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're using punishment and the dog really doesn't care about it too much, it's not gonna be as effective as you need it to be.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's really important that when you correct him, he cares about it, just as it is important as when you want to pay him with something for finally doing the thing, he also is getting that salivatory like holy crap, this is the best day ever.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So same thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So just make sure that you're on top of that because at the end of the day, if he's not getting the correction that because correction to me is just clarity, like take out the word correction and replace it with clarity.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if we're not clear with him in a way that he cares about he understands he respects et cetera, sustainably, it's going to be more difficult for us to get our point across that that behavior is not correct.
[SPEAKER_00]: So those are those are some things to think about.
[SPEAKER_00]: So de-sensitization, which is getting around other, getting around other, or sorry, other kids or whatever the triggers are as often as you can pay in him like making this no big deal, no big deal, no big deal.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then again, I think the other big thing here is just making sure that when he does get out of line and it's again, it's really predicated and discretionary off of like what you find to be out of line because the environments are going to change for him.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what's appropriate in the hospital maybe.
[SPEAKER_00]: not a big deal in the yard at home.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then that's where you just have to really audit because it's not my position really to tell you whether the corrections working or not because I can't see you're going to have to see.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if he gets his chest pops up, his ear hurts up, he starts to grow and then bark.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you can walk away and he completely melts and says, okay, I'm done, you could do that forever.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's okay to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: What I'm saying is, is if you walk away and he's looking around and he's still barking and he's still reactive, you're gonna have to think about something different to correct the dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, yeah, I definitely see what you're saying.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's, that's, that's, that's what I'd be working on with them is just really clarifying what's appropriate.
[SPEAKER_00]: What is not appropriate.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then after that, you can start working in conjunction with the desensitization to kids because there's also a real thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's also a real.
[SPEAKER_00]: potential that he doesn't ever get comfortable with kids or these other triggers.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and I do, you know, I understand that, but I've even seen improvement with him just doing what I
[SPEAKER_01]: What I do when past the the kennel.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've noticed he's he's not doing the build.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's walking because he thinks he's like, Oh, cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to get my toy if I don't.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's money.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's money.
[SPEAKER_00]: That do more that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep, walk up to the kennel and that if you start to build all.
[SPEAKER_01]: I tell him.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, no or set up or chill out or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, and then he'll start that neutrality and then he'll start looking at me for the toy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he'll turn around and look and look and look and then in that environment, the, in the home past the kennel is there's, you know, all different notes all the time they're running circles they're working sometimes are at the fence.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm across the street, so there's there's a little bit of.
[SPEAKER_01]: place there and typically what he does is, you know, he gets the toy and he like goes as fast as he can to the lead so he can pee on something.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, so the seriousness of the reactivity is very immature and juvenile and not that serious.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think he's just being suspicious and he's just barking at things that he is unsure of, which is the best type of reactivity you could have, by the way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't feel like there's any, I definitely don't feel like there's anything to worry about.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So cautious, the last thing I wanted to do was different things.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's a big dog too.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love my job and he is a good boy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, the good news is because he's so big that kids typically don't approach because he's so big going.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, big dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, and, and the idea that he will accept food.
[SPEAKER_00]: Instead of react is huge.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, or toy, I should say.
[SPEAKER_00]: So do you do more of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: All that stuff you should continue to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: all that stuff is is really helpful um yeah yeah I would I would keep doing that like the fact that he can walk by the kennels with other barking dogs and then you can pay him with a toy after and that's the that's the game that's like the summary in the road map like you know what screw these dogs I just want the toy
[SPEAKER_00]: That means that just tells you how serious it is, like with my dog Burley and I've talked about this all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: I couldn't, I couldn't do his genetics override any motivation or reward I could throw at him.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't even mean so there's certain genetics and sometimes I call it personalities that you can't change.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's no thing anybody in the world can do certainly not me that I'm like, hey, the genetics just override, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like it's like seeing like a German shirt head pointer or like a field golden set their shake because they want to go get the bird and you're like, hey, I got a treat They're like, get that thing out of my face.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's bullshit.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, they're like, I want to go get the bird, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: There's nothing you can do.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so with your dog, it's different where he's like
[SPEAKER_00]: He will take the motivation over the the the barking of the reactivity or the the suspicion of other triggers, which is amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's where you want to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I'm now like, for example, working for that neutrality.
[SPEAKER_01]: Rewarding, he's looking at a kid coming down the hallway, he's starting to build.
[SPEAKER_01]: He looks to me, I say, good, good dog, whatever, give a treat, and he turns around looks again, but then he looks at me again, you know, as the kid gets closer and then the kid walks by and then, you know, he's done with this day.
[SPEAKER_01]: How long should I continue to reward?
[SPEAKER_01]: and continuing that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good question.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, great question.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I don't want to.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good question.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I talked about this in one of my podcasts and I kind of said like, you know, when you're first teaching a kid how to write a bike, it's really exciting.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're cheerleading them a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: But when they're 12, you don't do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it'd be kind of weird.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I broke that
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay cool cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so it's the same thing where so here's the important thing is you then this is where people get Kind of messed up when they're training is because their rewards are so What I call externally heavy externals are things that don't live with inside you your voice Your hands that you can pet your dog with right the externals are gonna be toys food balls, squeaker toys, etc And so when you are really heavy on the food and the toy
[SPEAKER_00]: When you'd go to present your information as a reward, but you don't have those things, not only can the dog get confused, but they can also be like frustrated because they didn't get what they wanted.
[SPEAKER_00]: So make sure when you're paying him with whatever you're doing it with food or a toy or a tug.
[SPEAKER_00]: Really excuse me, really use your voice.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for an example, it would be leave it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good leave it bang you pay him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Leave it, good leave it bang, you pay him, and then pretty soon you start to, you start to take away the external reward and just say, good leave it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the dog will get really excited about the idea that they left it, you know, type of thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm just making sure I'm just facing it out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, just start to face it out, and really that's how it should be, you know, it's like when you hire somebody to do a job and then they just they kind of itemize everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I swept and I did the dishes and I cleaned the windows.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, so that's an additional, it's like, then all this is part of your job.
[SPEAKER_00]: So same thing with the dog is like, I just want you to do this because I asked you to do it and that's your job and that's what we're doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't need a cookie every single step.
[SPEAKER_00]: type of thing in order to mean so just phase out the the food in the toy.
[SPEAKER_01]: How long should I go with I mean because like he kind of does the look at me now.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not rewarding.
[SPEAKER_01]: Should I continue to reward?
[SPEAKER_00]: verbally, yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're not rewarding, you can at least verbally reward.
[SPEAKER_00]: We call a duration marker.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if the dog is looking at you or it makes a good decision, you can say, good, good heel, good sit, good leave it, good down.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you can just throw him a bone verbally instead of physically, you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I feel like it's all reached for that treat pouch.
[SPEAKER_01]: And let me tell you what, his little touch was full.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's looking right at me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And why not avoid.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, drag it out too.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I always tell my, I just did this with my trainers last week, where you can build that duration out by just touching the treat pouch.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for an example, a lot of people,
[SPEAKER_00]: the dog finally gets into the heel position and they pay him and then they break him.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, put your hand in the treat pouch, string it out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good heel, good heel.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you just mess around with the treat pouch.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now you're doing a 30 second heel instead of a 2 second heel because the dog is anticipating the reward to come.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now you've built out your duration and your distance in the same breath.
[SPEAKER_00]: So my point is it's okay and normal for him to get excited about your hand reaching for that tree pouch, but just make it more neutral to put your tree pouch behind you and pay him when he does the behavior.
[SPEAKER_00]: So in other words, don't don't make the whole process so treat eccentric, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like make the dog due to behavior because you asked and then they get paid.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's not going
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm getting ready to pay you due to behavior.
[SPEAKER_00]: It should be to treat pouches neutral.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's on your other side of you where you can't see.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's behind you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Your hands are sideways.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't even look at him.
[SPEAKER_00]: You say, heal, he heals, and then you pay him.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's strictly work.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's strictly like business.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not like, oh, come over here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I got this food or do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I got this food.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's totally acceptable and even,
[SPEAKER_00]: beneficial to do that when they're puppies because you've got to you do have to breadcrum them along because their babies as they mature like you're two year old you don't they should just do it because you asked maybe they get food maybe they don't but at the end of the day they're still going to do it happily okay yeah I don't think we're quite there yet I'm going to work harder to be more to that
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, unless there's a situation where I feel like they need to get a retreat.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, you should give your dog a treat, but just make sure that you're not dependent on it.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's all.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what I definitely don't want to do is be dependent on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, um, off to the beach, the good news is that it's pretty, it's pretty wide and I should be able to walk a long distance away from other dogs and people in the Foxy leshes and all the other
[SPEAKER_01]: things that are going to it's going to be a new environment for him.
[SPEAKER_01]: So first I think he's going to be super like oh my god overwhelmed the ocean.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, all the things, but obviously I want to take them for walk every morning.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, his energy because they can't there's certain times they can be on the beach.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Walk in him in the morning.
[SPEAKER_01]: My plan was to take a toy and and throw it into the water and tear his little butt out.
[SPEAKER_01]: do the best that we can.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm walking along the beach and he starts react to a dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you recommend?
[SPEAKER_00]: If he's reactive to a dog on the beach.
[SPEAKER_00]: Off leash.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh no.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or on the, okay, so same thing, right, it's the same exact framework that you would use in the hospital is you would, the only difference is is the beach you have a giant arena where hospitals, you have these little hallways, so you have a lot of room on the beach.
[SPEAKER_00]: But for me, again, like I would, with a dog like this, who, again, like with my dog Burley,
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sitting there trying to be like, don't care, don't care, like no, he's going to care.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's just how he is, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So with your dog, it's a little bit different because you have an opportunity for neutrality to really capture some neutral, that was great.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's just, we can replace word with neutrality to calm this, nice and calm.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want you to be calm.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want you to get worked up.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want you to be freaked out.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you see a dog in a beach, I would step to the side.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would just allow him to soak that in.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then if he does good, pay him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, let's say you're throwing the ball in the beach.
[SPEAKER_00]: You see a dog stop for a second.
[SPEAKER_00]: Allow him to look at the other dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: The dog passes through your ball.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's how you want to do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would even hesitate to put him into a sit or a down or anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want it to be as natural as possible.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're out for a walk, you're playing tug, you're having fun, you're throwing the ball in the water, whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's another dog around.
[SPEAKER_00]: He spots the dog, you spot the dog, you just both turn and face the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't do anything, don't ask anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: If the dog passes and he doesn't do anything, bang, ball goes, just like you would with your, with your, your, your, sorry stuff as soon as as soon as the dog does exactly what you want bang, ball goes and you just keep doing that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, if the other dog is reactive, I would do the same thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would allow, especially because you have distance a very safe distance.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if the other dog is reactive, you stand there and you just see what he does.
[SPEAKER_00]: If he just stands there calmly, neutrally, and the other dog passes, same thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: If he starts to build, you'll do your hay-leave it inside turn and kind of walk away from the situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I would do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that feels like a more straighter definition of how I want to approach all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because he's like, I'll take him to Lowe's, I take him to Lowe's, I take him in all the places that I can take dogs in public.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I do go early in the morning because I want to do what one, I like take my stuff down early in the morning.
[SPEAKER_01]: But two, I want to go when there's the least amount of people, the least amount of distractions.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we can walk by dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: He'll build a little depends on, it depends on, if the dog's neutral, he'll build a little, he'll be like interested, build a little,
[SPEAKER_01]: But we can usually get by walk past him if I can move quicker, you know, obviously the quicker I get by that all the quicker the the less reactive time he has he will turn around and look behind him that's fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, and then I'll correct him and get him back and or not usually don't correct him usually just folks try to get him to focus back on me and he does he does pretty good with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but yeah, just with him though, I feel like so try the little.
[SPEAKER_01]: called tone avoidance with him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's also explained to me that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's something I read in a book by our extamberal working God.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: You put them on a place which he knows place.
[SPEAKER_01]: You put them in a place and you put the things that they react to around them with for him as balls.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's basketballs, it's tennis balls, it's whatever, whatever balls.
[SPEAKER_01]: If he's searching for odor,
[SPEAKER_01]: and ignore it.
[SPEAKER_01]: If he's not searching for order, he sees a ball bouncing or being thrown, he loses his mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: So one of the things they did with this tone of voice, he's in a place, the balls, I put them all around him.
[SPEAKER_01]: When he went for the balls, you say nothing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's tone and stem.
[SPEAKER_01]: Tolam, stem, Tolam, stem.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so the tone equals punishment.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, or stimulation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I kept him down to like just a little tail.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't zip it up too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: What level was it?
[SPEAKER_01]: I have he's on a eight and mine goes up to a 50.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So tone and then stem.
[SPEAKER_00]: So negative punishment.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're adding the stem.
[SPEAKER_00]: He gets back onto the place it shuts off.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: so you could apply that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but he gets a little barking with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: He gets a little with the negative reinforcement.
[SPEAKER_01]: He gets a little closer barking at me.
[SPEAKER_00]: you think it's frustration where he's like, give me the ball.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want the ball.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's normal.
[SPEAKER_00]: That makes sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: He breaks the, he breaks it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: He breaks the place.
[SPEAKER_00]: He goes over to try to get the ball.
[SPEAKER_00]: E collar turns on.
[SPEAKER_00]: He goes back.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's just, he's probably just,
[SPEAKER_00]: uh, frustrated.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, I want the ball and he's barking and he's a German.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's a working line, uh, European German Shepherd.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that doesn't surprise me at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: That he gets, he gets vocal after that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm not to use the e-collar unless I have to.
[SPEAKER_01]: I use the e-collar for recall, um, when I very first got him back, he was still on a line.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was still doing a room to follow the line.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he took off after a couple of deer here in the
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I jacked it up to a 20 30 I don't remember and got him back right away, but that's the only time I've ever used the high stem because he was off after them dear, he was to surprise so he was not coming back unless he was made to come back, but he came back and he happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, and I want, yeah, I wonder if the, I wonder if the e-colors also correcting him too.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, maybe not, but I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm not sure about e-collar correction with him in situations for reactivity.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if that's really going to help him.
[SPEAKER_01]: They tried the tone of voice with them with the other dogs and it really just didn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I felt like I didn't touch it like with this toy thing like you said it's just the I do need that's one of the reasons I take them alone is in all these places you can take him take dogs is I'm trying to get that exposure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just have to figure out how I'm going to get next to like a playground or something without looking like a creeper.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: The cops all done me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think just just walking around, you know, walk around, do a couple of sits.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to sit there, you know, stare.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think just walking around and doing a couple of sits, you know, healing back and forth.
[SPEAKER_00]: Doing some sits, paying them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that that's, that's like the vibe.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I wouldn't go there and just stay in the living.
[SPEAKER_01]: Stay in the living.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like a OB.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, go do some obedience around the park with the kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can totally do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's definitely just walking by and having sitting down.
[SPEAKER_01]: We do that almost every single day on our walk.
[SPEAKER_01]: I sit if we get a, we get bosses that drive by us.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, um, large machinery, and I put him in a down while it goes by.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's sort of thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's sort of thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I would do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I would get out and get around just just doing obedience and then play and that's the thing, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what you want to do is when the kids around, we play so that's counter-conditioning, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: When he sees kids, mom, we're gonna play.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're gonna play.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is what happens when I see and hear and smell those little things, like what was going on?
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, and yeah, that's that's a huge deal and and I think like I said because he is not serious about it You can get away with that like he doesn't have this overwhelming genetic like this position to be like kids I must you know, it's more like hey, what the hell is that?
[SPEAKER_00]: What do I do and if you're just playing so so that's the counter-conditioning kids equals play Kids equals play and every time like that's it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would do every time you see a kid no matter in the hospital or out
[SPEAKER_00]: bang the ball comes out and you would almost treat like the ball is on you and it never comes out unless there's kids around and that's how I would play the game of counter-conditioning and I really think that you'll you'll definitely be able to to get by with that that'll be that'll be huge.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just believe in that game changer for us.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know that.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we like our job.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm in, I'm in the middle bottom of the state in a little town called Shemong, New York.
[SPEAKER_01]: Actually, my daughter's a student at Cobalt Scales about two hours for us.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so we are working on the country, but yeah, it's pretty cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, but we, the hospital, I mean, is actually in Sarah, Pennsylvania.
[SPEAKER_01]: So just over the border, I'm literally the bottom of the middle of the state.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can throw a rock through the Pennsylvania border, so.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm in Pennsylvania,
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like eight miles or I've got you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: And my dog and do little security stuff as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have all kinds of interesting stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he was he was introduced into the program for the fact that one and four health care workers are assaulted.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, it's interesting, it's sad that that happens and it's interesting you say that because I have a buddy, I did a podcast with Chris Jones.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's a, uh, K9 officer in, uh, in our area.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I was going to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what he says.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I have, um, I trained Jiu Jitsu a lot and my professor goes in and trains the, uh, security there and he's like, they,
[SPEAKER_00]: like they need for some reason they can't afford the local PD.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why, but so they hire security that are not law enforcement trained, but their security meaning they check IDs and that's it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so yeah, so my professor actually goes and and teaches them self defense and
[SPEAKER_00]: how to, I mean, judging by what I'm seeing now all over the internet and stuff, it's like what's happening on flights and in hospitals and in places that are high security that you wouldn't think these things are happening, you know, it's almost like they need, they need more of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: They need, they need a K9 first class and the first C on every flight.
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, it would, it would, it would, it would 1000% stop some of these lunatics who are trying to get into the cockpit for whatever reason are open a door.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, once a dog comes into the picture that starts barking at him, everything changes and you'd think twice.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it looks, because a lot, because, go ahead.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's been successful.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's, he's been super successful.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've had many instances that have turned right down into nothing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just bring him into the building.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, just bring him into the room, getting him the bark at something.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's it.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's all it takes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dogs are amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Especially those big check line German shepherds.
[SPEAKER_00]: We had, we imported one from Czech.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we have, we have, we trained him for the, like the Boston Pediary on.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: But he was these big thick bone.
[SPEAKER_00]: giant black, black, black German shepherd named Lucas.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think he's still in the road.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's amazing dog, but the amount of people like, you know, that episode I did with my K9 friend got to teach that he's like, man, most of the times if the dog shows up, whatever is going on, whether it's domestic or it's barricade type thing, he goes, they come out.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they don't, they don't, they don't care about us with guns, but as soon as the dog gets there, that's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: see if that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, nobody wants to get this just having him there is going to use deterrent.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just just the threats.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll see in our stats.
[SPEAKER_01]: We did stats.
[SPEAKER_01]: So.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good for you guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's so cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would love to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd love to just walk around the hospital with a with a big check dog and just keep keep the, you know, and the people, you know, the obviously the crazy people out there don't know the difference between a, you know, because if you see a dog like that with a vest on you're like, oh, okay, even though it's a search and rescue dog, you know, it's like they don't know that he does.
[SPEAKER_01]: He does the detection as well, which, you know, but they don't know that they think he's a drug dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've had people come in the door turn around and walk out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you're like, oh, what were you gonna do?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's what I wonder, I'm like, hmm, see you later.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, because we're rule, we don't get a lot of, it's a big hospital, but we don't get a lot of, help from the local police department, only because they're just limited.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly, funding.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a couple of offers, officers, because they handle small town Pennsylvania.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: So having him there has just been phenomenal.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then of course, the caregivers think he's the greatest thing on earth.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's great.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, hopefully this was helpful for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And uh, uh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to work tomorrow with a park without the kids running around and the other dogs and the...
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, they'll be great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, if he looks, it makes good decisions.
[SPEAKER_00]: Pay him and keep that up.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think he smart enough and he smart enough and uncommitted enough to go, you know what, I'm just going to look at you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just not going to react.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going to.
[SPEAKER_00]: Whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's I think he's definitely there for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sweet.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I appreciate your time and
[SPEAKER_00]: Likewise.
[SPEAKER_01]: Enjoy your nice day in New York because we don't get many of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know, the yesterday and today looking good, looking good.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's awesome.
[SPEAKER_00]: Love it.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_00]: Talk to you later.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bye bye.