[SPEAKER_02]: This episode and the entire season is proudly brought to you by California Cryo Bank.
[SPEAKER_02]: Use Code ClearFam 26 for a free level 3 subscription to their donor catalog.
[SPEAKER_02]: Make those babies and then come tell me about them.
[SPEAKER_05]: And we had our first kiss at 8 in the evening and our first dinner at 9 in the evening, at 1 o'clock in the morning, Hannah said, you know, when London closes down, it's certainly not a 20 for us, it's like New Yorkers.
[SPEAKER_05]: And Hannah said, you know, there's this place I can take us to and we walked into this private military bar that I'd never knew was even there and other than they saluted her as she walked in and said, she is the coolest woman.
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh my God.
[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, y'all to the Clear Family Podcast, to show all about family, but with gay.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Jamie, your gay host, and this is the show that celebrates highlights, uplifts and normalizes, legitimate to co-off families in all of our fabulous identities.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I have a very special friend with me to be my co-host.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hello, hello, let's get to be back.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's good to have you back.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is Jose Rolone, aka NYC Gay Dad, aka my co-host on our other show, Love Take 2, which if you haven't listened to that yet, you gotta go over there and listen.
[SPEAKER_02]: Even if you don't listen, just subscribe, please, because it helps.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, Jose's back to help me with this year episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's a really good one, right Jose?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's amazing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I was blown away, inspired.
[SPEAKER_02]: Such a good story.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we have the pleasure of sitting down with Jake and Hannah.
[SPEAKER_02]: They live across the pond.
[SPEAKER_02]: I like to call it in the UK.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they are amazing, amazing, amazing people.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're a married couple.
[SPEAKER_02]: They are both trans.
[SPEAKER_02]: They have two beautiful children.
[SPEAKER_02]: They want more.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, and they're story towards parents.
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought it was in the same.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because you have me.
[SPEAKER_03]: As an artist.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sorry.
[SPEAKER_02]: You didn't say that to them, though.
[SPEAKER_02]: You were like, I think you should do it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think I can give them a quick little warning.
[SPEAKER_03]: We'll have to roll the tape and see.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: You did.
[SPEAKER_02]: You give them a quick little warning.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then you're also saying is rewarding.
[SPEAKER_02]: But we love our kids.
[SPEAKER_02]: We really do.
[SPEAKER_02]: Y'all.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's a really wonderful episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: be beautiful, and they're just their whole story.
[SPEAKER_02]: I really adore these two.
[SPEAKER_02]: They also have children's book that I think is now finally out.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's called the silly, frilly dress, and I think we all need to put this book on ourselves for our children.
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't you think Jose?
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, by the way, those are things that I wanted to wear that I was not allowed to wear.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I don't think I ever told this story, but I remember being a kindergarten and being set home because I decided to wear a dress.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god, really?
[SPEAKER_02]: So your parents sent you to school in the dress or they didn't know you were wearing it.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, you know how they have the corner room with all the dresses and dress up stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: I put on a wedding dress at matching.
[SPEAKER_02]: Matcha.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that was the last day I saw that take care of all my good.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's so good.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, did you know, if you're in maybe my parents had the silly frilly dress, I would still, I'll be still have friends from that take care.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, did you get in trouble when you got home?
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're raising our kids, too.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're still gay and you're proud.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right, where does this?
[SPEAKER_03]: I will wear a dress.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I know you will and a wig.
[SPEAKER_02]: But this book is about a little girl who doesn't want to wear a silly, frilly dress and all about how she feels.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I haven't read the book, but it looks like a really great book for like, you have a daughter who doesn't like to wear dresses.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have a daughter who refused to wear dresses until puberty and now all of a sudden their dresses galore, I don't even understand.
[SPEAKER_02]: But anyway.
[SPEAKER_03]: I get my daughter liable never want to wear a dress.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can see that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I grew up once.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, once she hit three, it was a wrap.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm all about it for her.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love all of you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love all three of your children.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I really, really love I love a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love them all.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's like, within our community.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_02]: She fits in.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a really great episode, y'all are gonna love it, and I'm super excited to share it with you, and Jose is with us the whole time, and the insights that you give.
[SPEAKER_02]: See, what I say all the time about the two of us as co-host Jose, since we've been doing it for some time, you come in with the heart, you come in with the heartfelt thing that needed to be said and giving love and kudos to people, and I come in with a dumb joke.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, you don't, you come in with, no, you don't.
[SPEAKER_03]: Actually, I think we both come in with the jokes.
[SPEAKER_03]: You come in with a lot of insight, you're very thoughtful and you have, you just have a way to articulate things in a way that I certainly can't.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I don't know, I think you come in with the stuff that, yeah, I may be the hard, and you come in with like, you know, the stuff that, I don't know, needs to be said also.
[SPEAKER_02]: look at us loving on each other.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're like the relatable parts.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, and you're you're relatable and it's heartfelt when you say the things.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so anyway, all that being said, this is great.
[SPEAKER_02]: We had a great conversation with Jake and Hannah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love them to death.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they might have a third child coming soon.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: People come on my show and I make babies.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what I do.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, well, okay, let's, let's go ahead and roll this tape.
[SPEAKER_02]: Helen, view luck.
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you come in here, please, and roll this tape?
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I have fake assistance, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't, now I know that's fantastic.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Helen and beauty.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you don't have much hair.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're old.
[SPEAKER_02]: They smoke cigarettes all day.
[SPEAKER_02]: They drink whiskey.
[SPEAKER_02]: They sit on my couch.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they're only job is to hit the button to roll the tape.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then they mess that up too.
[SPEAKER_03]: By the way, you say people come in here and end up having babies.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm being very clear with you because I've been on this like three or four times.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do not want for Let's see if we can make that happen for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll send Helen and Bula over there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Help.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah All right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Helen.
[SPEAKER_02]: Bula.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's roll this tape.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's go.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're family but good, love is love.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hi Jake and Hannah.
[SPEAKER_05]: Hi Jamie, how are you doing today?
[SPEAKER_02]: We have Jose here as well and my C. Gay dad, who is helping me chat with you and was super excited to meet you as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, this is fantastic.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for joining.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm super excited.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've been kind of like stalking you a little bit on social media, learning about the two of you, and I can't wait to get into it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So without further ado, we would love to hear your 30 second elevator pitch, Jake and Hannah, of who you are and why you're here talking to the queer family podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's do 30 seconds.
[SPEAKER_02]: See, who wants to go first?
[SPEAKER_05]: That's all right, I pray on the idea.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, ready set, go for it, go for it, go for it.
[SPEAKER_05]: So my name is Jake Graff and I am a filmmaker, author and director based in London.
[SPEAKER_05]: About 10 years ago, I decided that as a trans man, I really wanted to become a parent.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so I stopped testosterone for six months and had some eggs harvested and fertilized.
[SPEAKER_05]: And ended up with five little embryos on ice.
[SPEAKER_05]: And they just kind of sat quietly there until I made my beautiful wife Hannah.
[SPEAKER_05]: We then got married and found a fantastic surrogate who gave birth to not one but two beautiful babies, million teddy and that's why we're here.
[SPEAKER_05]: Boom!
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god, that was you did it in 30 seconds.
[SPEAKER_05]: No, it's solid.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hannah, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Competition's fierce for you right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm super competitive.
[SPEAKER_04]: I know that Jake is much better at this kind of stuff than you have to do my best.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hannah, you got this.
[SPEAKER_02]: You got this and I'm so excited for your story.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Ready Hannah, set, go for it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hello, I am Hannah Graff.
[SPEAKER_04]: I am a military veteran.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was often British Army for a decade.
[SPEAKER_04]: I am a trans woman.
[SPEAKER_04]: And when I transitioned, I thought I was giving up the chance to be ever in love or have a relationship, let alone sort of family.
[SPEAKER_04]: So when I first started dating Jake and Jake said to me that you really wanted a family, it was a bit of a curveball, but ultimately that's where ended up.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I now have two peaceful daughters that I'm very, very proud to be a family.
[SPEAKER_02]: Beautiful, beautifully done, both of you.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like you rehearsed it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is really, really exciting.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we need to dig right in.
[SPEAKER_02]: So Jake, it sounds like before you even knew Hannah, you decided you were gonna create the embryos.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you went off to, how was it going off testosterone?
[SPEAKER_02]: First, can I ask?
[SPEAKER_05]: Honestly, you know, people, friends of mine said, oh my God, you're going to be suicidal.
[SPEAKER_05]: You're going to be so depressed, you know, who was really worried about me like I needed to be on some sort of watch.
[SPEAKER_05]: Honestly, by six years into testosterone use, I was happy in myself and you, I was the man I always meant to be.
[SPEAKER_05]: I was always meant to be.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, it's confident and much as it was a difficult process, my muscle dropped, my emotions, you know, rocketed to the surface.
[SPEAKER_05]: I was crying every like commercial on television, everything made me cry.
[SPEAKER_05]: But that's not the very bad thing, you know, testosterone kind of really does.
[SPEAKER_05]: It is true what they say, boys don't cry.
[SPEAKER_05]: testosterone does really kind of block up those teardats.
[SPEAKER_05]: And you know, sometimes I'd love to be able to cry when I'm not able to.
[SPEAKER_05]: So,
[SPEAKER_05]: For those sort of six months when I was off it, I was just, you know, welling up at everything, which was great, releasing all those toxins and, you know, negativity, I knew what the end goal was.
[SPEAKER_05]: It wasn't particularly pleasant.
[SPEAKER_05]: I went to a place called the London Women's Clinic in London.
[SPEAKER_05]: And the first time I went, I went with my mum, who was like, I'm going to support you.
[SPEAKER_05]: And as we arrived, walked in together to this changing, changing, and waiting room, it kind of looked to have on a thing like I was so a younger toy boy and we were a couple trying to get.
[SPEAKER_05]: you know get pregnant together.
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_05]: So that was the last time we did that and then I waited quietly in a corridor and that was fine and I went and I did my thing and after you know six months of sort of letting everything wash out of my system I had the egg harvesting which again it's not particularly pleasant.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's not like a ballerapete but again end in sight and when I got 19 eggs they were like wow, 19 eggs how incredible I was like sweet.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then they said, you know, what you should really do is have them fertilised because then your chances of becoming a, you know, a good pregnancy, um, I think doubled or something from like 20% to about 40 or 50.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so that's what I did.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, I went through a book.
[SPEAKER_05]: There were lots of lovely sperm donors, no photos, but lots of, you know, tall handsome,
[SPEAKER_05]: I want to do it because of their Simon Engineer, and I happened to choose someone who was a tall brown-eyed engineer, which is basically Hannah, tall brown-eyed engineer, purely my chance.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think that's what she's meant, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: And so we got out of those, I had five really healthy embryos that went to five day blast assist.
[SPEAKER_05]: And that was that.
[SPEAKER_05]: That was, you know, the whole process, you know, in a painful six months not show, which, you know, really was worth every single moment.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the dollar that you picked out was that through the, the British system.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't think of what it's called.
[SPEAKER_05]: It was called the London Spurmbank, so no, you know, no missing words.
[SPEAKER_05]: It literally was, you know, what it said.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think you paid, I think I paid a thousand, a thousand
[SPEAKER_05]: a sample and luckily you know the the motility was good and you know as I say we you sit and you wait for those five days and I'm sure you're familiar and then you know things happen and some obviously you see some kind of falling weights a little bit heartbreaking but essentially five everyone went wow I was like oh my god only five and all my friends were like five that is amazing especially after six years of washing my body with testosterone and so on
[SPEAKER_02]: how viable it was that is amazing and it's a big it's a big important thing that I've learned doing this show in in the over 200 episodes that I've done that testosterone does not necessarily have negative effects on your fertility which the whole at the whole world needs to know about like like we need to screen this from the rooftops and because people have their own weird theories about all the stuff right
[SPEAKER_03]: No, no, I would love you to respond to that actually, I find that really fascinating.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, this is the thing with the younger generation these days.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's all now now, now, you know, hundred and I didn't transition, respectively, until we both, you know, mid-twenties.
[SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, the younger generation at sort of 12 and 13, they're thinking, you know, I want my fellow Plusty, I want my history, to me, I want, I want, I want, I want my guys calm down, take your time.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, as far as I know, from my experience, most of the trans guys I've met, a little bit later on, really want kids.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, I don't know again if that's a sort of maternal biological throwback.
[SPEAKER_05]: I would say more of the trans women I know tend not to necessarily want kids but again that is just the generalization because you know Hannah is the best one you could possibly be.
[SPEAKER_05]: But you know these young people who were so absolutely adamant that they have to do everything now and you know we know that all my blockers do not are not irreversible and the whole myth is irreversible.
[SPEAKER_05]: You're damaging these children there and up in fertile blah blah which is not true.
[SPEAKER_05]: And obviously, you know, when you have cross-sex hormones, the thing that it is important to say, which we always say to these young people, is that if you go straight from the blockers onto the cross-sex hormones, and if these young guys are going straight to testosterone, not having their sort of natal puberty, then obviously that can affect.
[SPEAKER_05]: fertility later in life.
[SPEAKER_05]: So, you know, we always kind of say, you know what?
[SPEAKER_05]: Give yourself the time, think through everything.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm gonna know that when, you know, you're 14 or 15 or going through your puberty, you're not thinking one day, I want to be a parent or a dad, or even carry your child, of course, you're not thinking about that, that boy.
[SPEAKER_05]: We always say to the young people, give yourself the opportunity in the future, because, you know, Hannah, I don't know if you wanna share your,
[SPEAKER_04]: I think it's about informed choices, right, because as I said in my little blobs intro, is that when I transition, growing up in the late 90s and in the early 2000s in the UK, as I'm sure it's the same in the US, you're taught to hate yourself, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: You're taught to transform in our disgusting, you're unlovable, you're a freak, you're a weirdo, like in it's hard not to live in that environment for years and years and years that internalizing
[SPEAKER_04]: So when I transitioned, I was genuinely thinking, well, I'll be alone, but that's okay because I'll be myself and that's enough and that's all I wanted when I was like 20 who was just to be me.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then obviously, once you then transitioned and you live your life and you live your lives and then you realize that those things are available to me, you meet people and you realize that maybe you can be loved, etc.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so you're mind is open, but at the stage when I was transitioning,
[SPEAKER_04]: Why even think about doing anything about, you know, having a family when I'm going to be alone for the rest of the life and that's honestly how I thought as it says that isn't in hindsight and so I didn't have those I didn't make any any any sort of preparations for having a family which I can I agree with Jake and saying it is
[SPEAKER_04]: I've always advised to stop and think about it, but to anyone who is in that position either when they're constantly thoughts about it and don't decide to or didn't think about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: There are a different ways to become a family and I am one example of that and being having your own biological kids is a very amazing experience I am sure, but I'll tell you now that my experience of having kids that are not biological mine is equally amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: 100% and I think Jose can relate to that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can relate to that because I'm biomum to one of them and a non-biomum to one of them and Jose, you have a similar same, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean my my son who is 13 is not biologically mine.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I remember when he was first born, I thought, you know, I had him with my late husband.
[SPEAKER_03]: And my first reaction when he was born when he came out looking white and
[SPEAKER_03]: And I struggled.
[SPEAKER_03]: I actually, I struggled there for a little bit, but then something happened two months in that it just changed everything.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think people would tell you now when they see me with my three kids, they can see that I have them.
[SPEAKER_03]: probably the more special relationship with my son than my two daughters who are biologically mine.
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, I mean, it just really just hit the, you know, just proves it that it doesn't matter.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think about it.
[SPEAKER_05]: I was going to say, I think the only thing for me and I think how it matters I think for trans people is realistically given the climate globally at the moment.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think there are very, very few people, unless you've got a partner who's, you know, you're doing that as a partnership with.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think, you know, in terms of adoption, I don't think trans people at the moment are going to be first in our production or fostering.
[SPEAKER_05]: So I think our options are very limited and that's how I saw it.
[SPEAKER_05]: I thought no one is ever going to give
[SPEAKER_05]: a single trans guy, which is what I was at the time, a child, and for me the only way I saw of ever having a child was if it came off me.
[SPEAKER_05]: So that's kind of what I did and because it was, you know, I was single, I just thought, you know, one day I'll meet a girl who will carry our baby and that was that.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then obviously I'm at Hannah and that was added and it's funer in the works.
[SPEAKER_05]: But I've like amazing.
[SPEAKER_05]: We got there, you know, we got, and our surrogate was, is this amazing woman, a pediatric nurse based in Belfast, and she actually messaged us, she got in touch with our social media Facebook and said, you know, I know you're looking and I know it's been tough and I would love to help you because we were coming up across all the doors, you know, time after time we were getting left over because again, no one wanted to work with a trans couple and no wanted to help.
[SPEAKER_05]: a trans couple become a family and this woman was like, you're your stories fantastic and I would love to help you become a family and And we will forever of course be grateful to this fantastic woman who who helped us have our two little babies
[SPEAKER_03]: I think serrigates are such a blessing.
[SPEAKER_03]: We loved hours and actually really appreciate you bringing up the point about adoption because I think I'm fortunate to live in a community where there's plenty of other gay dads that I connect with and a lot of them have gone through adoption and still even in 2026 when it comes to adoption gay men or at the end of that line.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the options are very limited.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, for me about the trans community, it's like, you're not even in line.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that is exactly right.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think that for me was, was why I just, you know, I went through something that I, you know, I could never have carried a child.
[SPEAKER_05]: The thought leaves me absolutely cold.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, I really admire guys who do.
[SPEAKER_05]: I cannot imagine those changes happening to my body.
[SPEAKER_05]: that I would imagine would be equally, or if not more, distressing to a man who wasn't happy that, you know, that was for you for me.
[SPEAKER_05]: So, you know, from my point of view, it was never to carry.
[SPEAKER_05]: It was always just to give myself that chance, should I meet the right person in the future.
[SPEAKER_05]: And you know, as I say, thank goodness, here we are, you know, not too little babies are in bed next door, having driven us mad all evening.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's their joy.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, we enjoy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we haven't talked about YouTube meeting.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to hear the stories.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I want to hear the story of how we've gotten little snippets of the surrogate.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I want to hear how it all came to be.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Hannah, I'd love to hear your perspective on being gifted embryos and like a whole, I want to hear the whole thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's go into your your origin story of the two of you.
[SPEAKER_04]: How do we meet Jake message me on Facebook basically?
[SPEAKER_04]: That was how we met I came out as trans in the British Army I'd sort of done about six months post transition and I was kind of like getting no that's me Maybe it's all that I can
[SPEAKER_04]: It was so long the night.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was, I was like, Hannah, what was it like coming out as trans in the army?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that couldn't have been easy.
[SPEAKER_04]: How many was still definitely scary?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: But actually, I had a really positive experience.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think it was, I think Jake and I both were sort of in the public eye in the trans world in the UK, right, at the sort of peak of trans acceptance.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like it was when things are really going well before the back of actually really started.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it was a good time to come out.
[SPEAKER_05]: It was like a year wasn't there, a year where we were being persecuted in 2015.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's like so epic.
[SPEAKER_05]: Do we hold on to that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was that time.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was the time.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was the best of times.
[SPEAKER_05]: But it was in a vone-cox on the cover of time.
[SPEAKER_05]: It was.
[SPEAKER_05]: And obviously now we don't really say her name, but the lady who came out on the cover of Vanity Fair.
[SPEAKER_04]: But we thought, you know, a great white hope, this is going to be fantastic.
[SPEAKER_05]: And obviously, you know, we know how that turned up.
[SPEAKER_05]: But, you know, there was a moment there when things were looking great.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I always try and say that, I mean, people have really stereotypical views of what the army is like, you know, it's mature, male-dominated.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, some of that's true, but it kind of covers up like the truth, which is actually, there's a lot of really good people who work in the army, who are very like servants and monsters, so they're country and people part of it, even be sort of big part of something special.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the best example I always give is that I've been tough can understand anyone who's been in the military as either trained for or been in a position where you are fighting for your life And in that moment, you don't care if the person that's you is trans or gay or black or Muslim or Jewish or anything else you care about
[SPEAKER_04]: because they shoot straight, can they run fast and if need to be again to carry me home to my family.
[SPEAKER_05]: And at that point of reference, realising people to value people for what they can do rather than who they daily are.
[SPEAKER_04]: So actually, I just made sure I was still good at my job and people were spent to me for that.
[SPEAKER_04]: So actually, it was a really positive experience.
[SPEAKER_02]: that's amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: God, we need more stories like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: We need, we need to, like, oh, this whole story, this whole thing and all the stories that are told on this show, I feel like they need to be blasted.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like we should, they should be the majority of what we hear in media, our stories.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is what needs to happen to make this world a more empathetic and loving place, like come on.
[SPEAKER_02]: Ah.
[SPEAKER_05]: Unfortunately, that would jar with the entire media propaganda campaign, you know, normal what that, I don't even like using the word normal, but they're usual ordinary people living lives, living inspiring lives in some cases.
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, you know, how, how earth would that go down?
[SPEAKER_05]: That wouldn't like sell newspapers, no one would be interested in that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Happy stories.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no scandals.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, the worst of sadly boring.
[SPEAKER_03]: But it's so true, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to get back to that Facebook message and what year is this?
[SPEAKER_03]: 2015, 2015, 2015.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, link to the DMs.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I had come out in the army and then someone would leave my story.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so I was outed on the front page of the National News paper here in the UK.
[SPEAKER_04]: Pretty bad.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that had catapulted me into the public sphere.
[SPEAKER_04]: And although it was a very scary, not to my ask for.
[SPEAKER_04]: It suddenly gave me a platform to talk.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now I was determined to use that platform and voice to talk about a public area in a positive experience of being trans in the army.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so,
[SPEAKER_04]: That's what I was doing and I was starting to do so the public speaking around the place to try and use that voice.
[SPEAKER_04]: And at the same time, Jake in his own right was doing amazing things.
[SPEAKER_04]: He'd just been in the Danish girl, the film with Eddie Redmein and you were doing this sort of the press talk for that again to talk about Transinclusion.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we were both kind of doing our own separate things within the same sphere and so Jake saw me on Facebook and thought you'd a slide into my DMs.
[SPEAKER_05]: No, that's not what happened.
[SPEAKER_05]: What happened was actually if you want to be if you want to be candid about this I saw her pop up on my people you may know and obviously the trans community is very very small and I'd seen her And I thought okay why not pop to little you know pressed a button.
[SPEAKER_05]: This one slid strains of the DMs with her Oh Jake I've been following your exploits for so much interest.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think it's fantastic what you're doing.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'd love to go for a drink
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, kiss, kiss, kiss, kiss.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I thought, wow, now I'm not in my voice.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hey, Jake, can I have you with me playing?
[SPEAKER_04]: I'd love to give a drink for you.
[SPEAKER_05]: She was so eager, honestly, I just felt like I had to just, you know, so when we started talking and it was the most mortifying of Facebook flirtation.
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, any kind of flirtation was so bad.
[SPEAKER_05]: She was going on about spiders being caught in her web, non-sensical, just us a rubbish.
[SPEAKER_05]: And we looked back and all like, oh my god, how do we even end up together?
[SPEAKER_05]: Facebook, you can scroll.
[SPEAKER_04]: You can find it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do that in memoriam.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then after about a week of talking to this girl I was like can we meet for a drink and she said no first I'd like to meet I'd like to do a Skype which took sort of date my time dates So everyone does like video call and I said what do you mean a Skype why can't we just get on the phone And obviously she was worried about her voice being slightly deeper that when I heard her
[SPEAKER_05]: I wouldn't, but obviously I'd seen her being interviewed.
[SPEAKER_05]: I know who she was and that wasn't this year.
[SPEAKER_05]: So when we had a very first phone conversation, I did say to her within about five minutes as I look.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm not going to waste your time here.
[SPEAKER_05]: I really want marriage and kids.
[SPEAKER_05]: So if this is not what you want, then let's just move on.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I have to say it to Hannah's credit.
[SPEAKER_05]: She did not run screaming.
[SPEAKER_05]: She did sort of nervously say, well, I mean, I've never been.
[SPEAKER_05]: never really thought about that before man who I have never met but you know I might possibly where we'd talk about it and meet and actually get on think about marriage and kids and we you know we had this first date that lasted 11 hours and just for the first time in our lives first time in my 100 never dated before me so I kind of like had this you know blank canvas
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and luckily no point of reference whatsoever.
[SPEAKER_05]: So when I said to her, let's meet at three o'clock in the afternoon.
[SPEAKER_05]: She thought it was totally normal.
[SPEAKER_05]: I thought if it's really bad by six, I can just go out and see my friends.
[SPEAKER_05]: It was Christmas time.
[SPEAKER_05]: I got the emergency call.
[SPEAKER_05]: But literally the first moment I saw her standing in water to do station in the middle of London.
[SPEAKER_05]: I thought what a beautiful woman and she was just, she looked shy and nervous and she was just beautiful and I felt a real pull and we went and just walked along the South Bank in London by the river and talked about everything from life, love, music, you know, we're both into metal and which is quite unusual and just clicked and for once in our lives and once in one of
[SPEAKER_05]: We didn't talk about trans anything, dysphoria or hormones or my transition or how we're going to tell our parents none of that.
[SPEAKER_05]: It was just normality and I hate using normality.
[SPEAKER_05]: It was an ordinary, I would imagine date and we had our first kiss at 8 in the evening and our first dinner at 9 in the evening and at 1 o'clock in the morning Hannah said, you know, when London closes down it's
[SPEAKER_05]: certainly not a 20 for our city like New Yorkers and Hannah said you know there's this place I can take us to and we walked into this private military bar that I'd never knew was even there and other than they saluted her as she walked in and said this kid is the coolest woman
[SPEAKER_05]: Next day, the next day was 31st of December and I actually left my friends early, bought her the first bunch of flowers she'd ever been bought and we toasted in the new year with with Prosecco and I might use the very colon, would you like to come back to my flat and see my films?
[SPEAKER_05]: And she was in and that was it real her in?
[SPEAKER_05]: I have two things here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the rest was history.
[SPEAKER_02]: Two things here.
[SPEAKER_02]: First of all, that whole story is so lesbian.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's so you are amazing.
[SPEAKER_05]: I was I was a lesbian for 15 years.
[SPEAKER_05]: No, I've got my I've got my stripes
[SPEAKER_02]: you got your strength and my first date was very much like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: It just kept going and going.
[SPEAKER_02]: It never ended.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also you brought something up in the beginning of the telling of this story about how you basically brought up making babies on your like right away, like before the first date actually.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's a theme that comes up time and time again on this show because of the nature
[SPEAKER_02]: There are a lot of details that need to be figured out.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not just that conversation that I imagine the non-queers have, like, do you want kids?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, do you?
[SPEAKER_02]: Great.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, we'll talk about that later, something.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's do you want kids?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, do you want kids?
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, how do you think we should go about doing it?
[SPEAKER_02]: What kind of donor would we have?
[SPEAKER_02]: What kind of would we do adoption?
[SPEAKER_02]: Would we do
[SPEAKER_02]: those conversations usually end up happening so very soon in our relationships, which is what makes us super intentional and the best parents there are in my opinion.
[SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely, I mean statistically, but I think at the time also there was a final 10 year limit on how long you could have embryos on ice.
[SPEAKER_05]: which obviously was in the back of my mind all the time when my god this finite now they've extended that to 50 years so as it turns out I could have been much more relaxed about the whole thing but as I was like okay we got five years here let's get off with this okay it was meant to be and you know honestly I can't imagine having a better mother for our little girls it's very calm yeah oh my god I love your whole story of the two of you it is so special
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll be right back.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for this love.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, speaking of donors and everything that goes into queer family building, I have a promo code for you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Go make those babies y'all and then come tell me about them.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, back to the episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: Love is love.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you basically, you hold as any self-respecting, the lesbian would, and then you, what happened next?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, when how soon after did you start really working towards the baby making?
[SPEAKER_05]: It's important to remember that Hannah was still in the army for the first two years of our relationship.
[SPEAKER_05]: So she was stationed way up north.
[SPEAKER_05]: So we were a weekend relationship for the best part of two years.
[SPEAKER_05]: And Hannah would come down to London to see me.
[SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, first it was fine, and I quite liked having that week of nothing, but then it became harder and harder every Sunday, she'd cry and then we both cry and, you know, I started sort of saying, look, you know, I don't want to be in a tree life, I'd never wanted, you know, it's, I knew so little about them in the army and so I met Hanna.
[SPEAKER_05]: And you know, obviously I have massive respect and I don't so much about some of the fantastic stuff they do But I had never wanted to be a nomad and that's effectively what a lot of our friends are You know, this nomadic lifestyle of, you know, just sort of hopping and hop out, you know, he's gone here And he's going to have two years there and he's now gone to America
[SPEAKER_05]: After about 80 months, Hannah said, well, there's a posting coming up in Canada, and I'll have to be gone for, I think it was three months.
[SPEAKER_05]: But that was three months, and I said, don't worry, I'll come and visit you and we can face some, she said, no, no.
[SPEAKER_05]: We will be out there as though we were at war, and this is the training that we have to do before I can make major.
[SPEAKER_05]: And there will be no visits, there will be no phone calls, there will be no, it's just not.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I thought, you know what, this was the sort of the beginning of, I thought I could just see that being alive, so, you know, long distance and it's not what I wanted, so I kind of gave Hannah an ultimatum and thank God it didn't all blow up in my face.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And Hannah, what was that?
[SPEAKER_03]: What was that moment like for you?
[SPEAKER_04]: It wasn't easy.
[SPEAKER_04]: I signed up to join the Army when I was 15 and I went to a military school to do my A-levels and not so the equipment is in the U.S., but you know, just sort of the ones last Wednesday before we go to college universities.
[SPEAKER_04]: I did two years in a military school and then I went through
[SPEAKER_04]: went to your college supported by the military then I was in Santa and then I was like serving so it had been like a goal of mine and my trajectory for a really young age and I had set expectations for myself in the military about what I wanted to achieve and this was really crashing against that so it wasn't it wasn't the easiest thing to do but I also knew that
[SPEAKER_04]: what we had was really special and again I had in the back of my mind as well as I was as a trans person and I didn't have many chances you get a love and life.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it was a difficult decision to make and one I did make likely but ultimately I said that I would do it and I would leave the military to try and start a family with Jake.
[SPEAKER_04]: I won't conditionals that I wanted to my goal was meant to be a
[SPEAKER_04]: to get promoted to major.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so I found out that I had made the cut to be promoted to major, and I gave in my notice the very next day.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that was like, it wasn't quite what I wanted to never actually became a major, but I proved myself that I would have been.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, so it was a bit of a a little bit of compromise on your side in terms of time But I don't regret it and I miss the army and I love the people so I'm like look back on time really fondly But I don't regret it because here I am now with an amazing family and I don't think that would happen otherwise
[SPEAKER_03]: That's what I was gonna say, I mean, I'm a son of a marine, and, you know, and yeah, I mean, the bonds and the special relationships that happen in military is just unlike anything that really exists out there.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, yeah, I imagine that must have been a really difficult decision, but obviously one that was worth it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and it might my best friend and life still remain those people.
[SPEAKER_04]: I joined the military with and I said, it's just a shared experience that you just can't get elsewhere.
[SPEAKER_04]: And again, I've read, I have a very boring job in finance now.
[SPEAKER_05]: And it's no, but she's an anti-financial crime.
[SPEAKER_05]: She's fighting a lot of people who are doing all sorts of terrible things.
[SPEAKER_05]: You're fantastic.
[SPEAKER_04]: like from a corporate perspective, they're still like going into corporate office nine to five sort of thing and so it's it's a shadow of like, you know, exciting life in the military.
[SPEAKER_05]: It might seem crime, but she's like Superman or Batman, you know, whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: I could see how it's the same same but different a little bit, maybe sort of very different.
[SPEAKER_04]: Maybe share some of the same purpose, but I'm not flying the world jump out of planes, put it that way.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, but you have the memories.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that's a big, that's a big, big, big change.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's, a family comes with sacrifice.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's something that is universal to family and kids.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I guess it's about to worry about being intentional about you, right, which that's.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, people who aren't queer can just go about their lives and what happens happens where it's right.
[SPEAKER_04]: I knew that if I wanted a family, I had to think about what did I do now.
[SPEAKER_04]: The steps I had to take, and this was a path that led to having a family, and it's what Jake wanted.
[SPEAKER_04]: I didn't come into this going, I really, really wanted a family.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was something that sort of happened to me a little bit, and my experience of all over time.
[SPEAKER_04]: But by the time we had this conversation, we've been together for years.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, yeah, that is something I want.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so it's like, well,
[SPEAKER_04]: That's something I want.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is this step I need to take regardless of those other new sacrifices I'm on it to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Intentionality.
[SPEAKER_02]: There it is.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you did it.
[SPEAKER_02]: You made the big step.
[SPEAKER_02]: You made the transition and then you started the service journey and you found your
[SPEAKER_02]: wonderful amaze.
[SPEAKER_02]: I call surrogates unicorns because I think they are these magical amazing beings who they are really special people.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's I really reveracer and I have given birth to one of these my kids and I would never do that again.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's, you know, it's a beautiful gift, so you found your surrogate and it sounds like things were pretty smooth for you for the process.
[SPEAKER_05]: How did you feel before going into it all?
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, you had your concerns.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sorry, because he was the only way that we were really, we had, we had the same option we were going to be had, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: So that was the first thing that we went down.
[SPEAKER_04]: Obviously, Jake had the genetic link as part of that process, and so I think emotionally you were right there.
[SPEAKER_04]: I went through a process of really worrying about what was I going to be good enough.
[SPEAKER_04]: I started, my thought process was, look, being trans, my body made this sort of hiccup at the start of my life somewhere on the lines.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know where that hiccup goes, and
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't have it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't have any of the hormones.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not going to have a bothering instinct.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, I'm not going to bond with the child.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like if you go to the hospital, like where baby's a born, all around it is around why skin, you know, this first moment, skin, skin hormone, breastfeeding, breastfeeding.
[SPEAKER_04]: One of these things are so important.
[SPEAKER_04]: They all tell you, like, that's how you bond with your baby.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think, well, I can't do those things.
[SPEAKER_04]: Does that mean I'm not going to be able to bond?
[SPEAKER_04]: my child and so I had a lot of nerves going into that process and then practically when you're in like the clinics and stuff not intentionally and not in any bad way but the clinicians would talk to Laura because she was the one that was going through the pregnancy.
[SPEAKER_04]: and they would talk to Jake, because it was Jake's, you know, embryo.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I was sometimes felt like I was a little bit like a third wheel there.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so, I felt a little bit emotionally left out.
[SPEAKER_04]: Again, not intentionally, not then anybody bad way.
[SPEAKER_04]: But like just like a, like an underlying level, they just sat with me through the process.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, I had a lot of nerves and worried going through it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, because then, uh, I want you to go to the bathroom and she was born, but yeah, that I had a lot might the pregnancy journey for me was a little bit emotional up and down again.
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, luckily, like in our last month of the pregnancy, the pandemic started, so that really made things a lot easier for everyone.
[SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, of course, she was in Belfast.
[SPEAKER_05]: We had a little baby moon in Miami.
[SPEAKER_05]: and this was two months before she was due and she had always said you know I've always gone to term don't worry eight weeks is fine and you know we're in Miami and everyone's masking up and we were like oh my god what is going on and you know at the beginning no one really understood what was going on and you know being in the States as well it was weird like people weren't wearing masks particularly in Miami but then you know you'd go into the shop and there wouldn't be a single hand gel on any of the shelves so that was kind of
[SPEAKER_05]: How worried are we, how worried should we be?
[SPEAKER_05]: So obviously we bolted, but we got back on the last plane before Trump stopped planes going back to the UK.
[SPEAKER_05]: So that was like first.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then they, within days Boris Johnson said they were about to implement a travel ban.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so we knew we had to get to Belle first by hookle by crook and literally just threw everything into our interhands car and drove, I think,
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, before they closed their B&Bs, everything was closing down.
[SPEAKER_05]: The ferry was closing down.
[SPEAKER_05]: We got one of the last ferries, B&B was closing down.
[SPEAKER_05]: We got one of the last bookings.
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it was really nice.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you had to be there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you have to be there.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, yeah, I mean, we had to for so many different reasons.
[SPEAKER_05]: But we had to be there, of course, to be the first people to not to hold her necessarily.
[SPEAKER_05]: But, you know, just to be there so that Laura A. wouldn't have to look after a baby because she didn't want that.
[SPEAKER_05]: We didn't want that.
[SPEAKER_05]: But there was also the added pressure that if we caught COVID, she had already been told that social services wouldn't let us take the baby.
[SPEAKER_05]: Because it was so new, it was so people were, we know people were terrified, you know, we were wiping our shopping, there was this whole heightened, we were away from our families because we couldn't be with them or bubble elderly parents.
[SPEAKER_04]: So even thinking about it now, it was on every side there was... Yeah, like we would go to the shop and literally disinfect every single item that we
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, the stakes are so high.
[SPEAKER_05]: Get COVID don't get not there for your child for the first days of their birth Yeah, because it could be weeks, you know, and again also people were at that point dying and we didn't know We didn't know none of us knew and so we thought my god, you know what if Laura caught corset what if we caught it you know as I say there
[SPEAKER_05]: That sort of level of hysteria that we were fighting down the whole way through that last month as we sat in this air being being Bell fast away from our family away from everyone not being able to see Laura You know we've had all these plans.
[SPEAKER_05]: We're gonna take you out for dinners.
[SPEAKER_05]: We're gonna be there with your kids We're gonna all of that went away
[SPEAKER_05]: We had plans to be in the room with her during delivery.
[SPEAKER_05]: I have to say, I'm so, so grateful.
[SPEAKER_05]: But I was not in that room, but at the time we thought, yeah, great idea.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then, obviously, we weren't allowed to be in the room.
[SPEAKER_05]: She was going to have to be on her own.
[SPEAKER_05]: All of everything changed.
[SPEAKER_05]: She would be the first person to hold you.
[SPEAKER_05]: It'd be the first person to do a skin-to-skid.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, we weren't even really allowed to see Millie.
[SPEAKER_05]: She was born at 5.30 in the only let us into the room at about 9.30 in the morning.
[SPEAKER_05]: And that was obviously gloved and everything else.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so...
[SPEAKER_02]: crazy crazy that puts a big hiccup in it a big one and I do want to speak to the what you were saying earlier Hannah about like your fears surrounding skin to skin and the breastfeeding and the narrative that is really told about that maternal instinct I really think it's a harmful narrative and I really think we need to stop because
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't have the layers that you had going into this Hannah.
[SPEAKER_02]: However, I had a really hard time breastfeeding.
[SPEAKER_02]: I did not bond with either children right away.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was non-biomontal the first one.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, so I thought it was just because of my non-bioconection that I didn't bond with her, it took a while.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm a slow burn, apparently, with the connecting, with the child.
[SPEAKER_02]: But when I gave birth to the second one, I didn't connect with him right away either.
[SPEAKER_02]: feed us this false narrative of what mothering and nurturing is that I think really sets us up for failure.
[SPEAKER_02]: I felt like such a failure as a mother because none of the stuff that was supposed to happen actually happened the way it was supposed to.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'm entirely agree, and I don't think it's just for queer parents.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think that, you know, there's so many people who go to this experience.
[SPEAKER_04]: I just think we could just be a bit more careful about the ways communicators.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I'm not saying that it's not a good thing to say, look, you know, these are the benefits of breastfeeding.
[SPEAKER_04]: But making it out like, if you don't breastfeed, it's a failure is a miscommunication which harms people.
[SPEAKER_04]: So there's got to be a fine
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, it's not fair.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then like Jose and your since you can't best feed, there's no breastfeeding happening, you know, you're two dads.
[SPEAKER_02]: So
[SPEAKER_03]: It's true.
[SPEAKER_03]: We weren't hormonal and yeah, it's interesting with, you know, calling surrogates unicorns.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, our surrogate ended up like shipping us breast milk for six months for all three of the kids.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, that wasn't even part of the contract.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think as a father, I was worried about, you know, with what society tells you, I'm like, oh my god, I don't have,
[SPEAKER_03]: motherly instinct and I'm not going to be able to, you know, figure this out, especially when I became a single dad of all three of my kids and, you know, I need to, I need to make sure I have as many females around and the reality is like, yes, motherly instinct is a real thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do think that women get this societal pressure that men don't get and I think that's unfortunate and I talk about that a lot.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I can't even imagine being in your position at that time during COVID dealing with all the things that people would normally deal with.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, I'm more curious about what was that first time like to see your baby?
[SPEAKER_03]: Was there a connection?
[SPEAKER_03]: Was there not a connection?
[SPEAKER_05]: We were sitting in the Airbnb knowing that we weren't going to get in and we'd been told that we were going to have to wait in the car park.
[SPEAKER_05]: So we were still 15 minutes down the road in the Airbnb and then we got a photo is coming through from Laura who was eventually out of birthing partner, her best friend, who was sending us these photos of Millie covered in blood held and loft screaming.
[SPEAKER_05]: I have to say a little bit horrified.
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't want to cheat here.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I went, oh great.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I don't know what I expected when I went.
[SPEAKER_05]: She's here.
[SPEAKER_03]: Wait, it was that photo that made you realize I'm glad I wasn't in the delivery room.
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh my god, you have to have no idea.
[SPEAKER_05]: Honestly, I saw that and I thought, oh my god, thank thank, thank someone for not putting me in that room.
[SPEAKER_05]: But I thought, you know, we were going to see this beautiful little baby swaddled.
[SPEAKER_05]: It was not that at all.
[SPEAKER_05]: It was, it was gorefest and she'd had to have a sea section because apparently what I didn't realise more, I learnt actually through that process is that there is usually the fetus, the sense of a message to the person carrying them to deliver the baby and apparently according to the doctor, my fetus was not because of the different DNA giving those sending those signals to Laura's womb.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so the baby wasn't coming out, they induced, they induced, they induced nothing was happening.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so the saccored pots, there was no water, and eventually they had to do sea section, and they had to do that with both babies, and it wasn't nice for her at all, but this was just something that apparently is like a genetic thing that either does or doesn't happen.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so when we finally got to the hospital and finally then at us in four and a half of our fans later and we were the first surrogacy they'd ever seen at this very, you know, Irish small town hospital, not only the only, sorry, the only trans couples, so you know that we were a bit like amongst all the pandemic and you know, it's taped off and you know, it looked like honestly like a zombie movie with all the tape and dark corridors and
[SPEAKER_05]: we were kind of like almost like rock stars when we walked in and they were like oh my god and it's there and a lot of people were talking about us and so we had our own little special room which again was a COVID thing but it was great because we had our own room and we sat there and Nora was wielding, holding Millie and honestly
[SPEAKER_05]: It's still now like the absolute disbelief that we had a baby.
[SPEAKER_05]: I was like, oh my god, that's our baby, that's our baby.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, she was covered in blood and smell of blood and you know, but was our little baby.
[SPEAKER_05]: And we held her, Laura gave her to us and we both held her.
[SPEAKER_05]: And it was just honestly something I never, ever, ever thought would happen to me.
[SPEAKER_05]: that I was a dad and you know that Hannah was a mom and you know we just sat Laura eventually was like I've got to go and lie down and you know as a rest so she went off to her private room which was nice and the nurses were lovely and you know as I say there wasn't a lot to do because there was so few births happening that point it was just they was all but you know they brought us food and they looked after us and they shared us how to bathe her and feed her and everything else and it was magic.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, it was amazing.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think I don't think I had the immediate, it's like really strong emotional connection I found it amazing, beautiful, wonderful, like the first time that made it laid on me and just I felt her warmth and her heartbeat and she was like, you know what I'm saying, Jake, she was hiccupbing
[SPEAKER_04]: I found it very beautiful.
[SPEAKER_04]: I wouldn't have said that was a point where I found my deep connection with her.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'd say that came about two weeks later and it was, you know, you're in the thick of, you know, just keeping them alive and, you know, feeding it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So hard.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, every sort of whatever it was, every hour or two hours.
[SPEAKER_04]: Maybe a couple of hours.
[SPEAKER_04]: Our surrogate, like yours, I was very, um, great at giving us, like, breast milk, but Milly, we, on the very, the very start, we'd used bottle milk and formulae, formulae, and therefore, um, whatever she did take to the breast milk.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we went back to the bottoms, which meant that everything was like not warm enough for her, so like she would cry, and then you'd have to spend like one hand here holding shaking whilst one hand
[SPEAKER_04]: It wasn't as quick and easy as it was, baby, if you were breastfeeding.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I remember Jake was sleeping in the middle of the night.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was probably about two or three in talking the morning.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I was doing my shift because we had a bit of a shift of thinking.
[SPEAKER_04]: I remember in that moment when I was holding it and feeding her, and it was just, I thought, right now, it's just me and you.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, there's no one else here.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I'm there everything.
[SPEAKER_04]: If I get this wrong, it goes wrong.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I knew it was, I'd never get a letter after to you.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that was kind of like, that was like a little click.
[SPEAKER_04]: as I've realized that I was in that moment, I was her everything and she was like, I'm not finishing.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I love that you share that story because that's exactly like what I had felt him was away somewhere and I had to go up and change avery and at this point I'm still kind of like in my feelings about the whole situation and it was.
[SPEAKER_03]: I went to change him and the way sort of like the light was coming in the bedroom and I like had him in my arms and the way he was
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, he was like, I need you, you're my person in this moment.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, and I just lost it and realized I'm like, oh, and that that's exactly what it was for me.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was it was a moment so similar.
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, that's such a beautiful place to be.
[SPEAKER_03]: And not everybody gets there.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so it's really incredible that you were able to get there.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was able to get there.
[SPEAKER_03]: And again, just to show that biology doesn't, you know, often play a role on the magnitude of love you can have for your own child.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it just sneaks up when you're right, it just happens like it's not like the moment can feel like a bit of an epiphany, but it's just like it's just in the mundane like it's just just in the middle of the night where you're multitasking, balancing, thinking about a time and where the milk cares like kind of stuff in all of a sudden it's just like it hits you.
[SPEAKER_02]: and there it is.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's why that's why our stories need to be told more.
[SPEAKER_02]: We flip the narrative.
[SPEAKER_02]: We flip the narrative and we shine light on the universal truths about love and family and what makes a real fan.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like we just we prove so much just by showing up in the world.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's why I love us so much.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I know you have to, you have to go and I don't want to get you out.
[SPEAKER_05]: But another thing we're fine with fine with fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: Another baby came.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's another one.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right, I mean, yeah, we, so, you know, Laura was fantastic, you know, again, even afterwards, even after she was born and we were there, we couldn't go and see Laura because, you know, again, it was high-told.
[SPEAKER_05]: So, it was the only time we saw Laura, Joe, that whole thing was for an hour in the hospital.
[SPEAKER_05]: It was just, the whole thing was so bizarre, this amazing woman who had carried her baby.
[SPEAKER_05]: Of course, we were in touch with daily, but we weren't able to see her or be near her.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so, we had just left Ireland, it took us 10 days to register at Millie's birth, because nowhere was registering birth, because everyone was just overcome with deaths.
[SPEAKER_05]: So, literally, it took us about 10 days just to get someone in Ireland to register.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then we spoke to the airline, because again there was no travel, and so we spoke to the airline and they gave us a space on an airline and airline in good, you know, and they gave us a row with no one around so that we could take our baby home safely, and then we got back to our little house and again couldn't see family, couldn't see friends, couldn't see anyone, and, you know, just just us and our little baby, which, again, was absolutely joy and heaven and miraculous, but also terrifying because we had no, no one to kind of lean on.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then literally, Laura about like two weeks after Millie was bored, called us and was like, so that was the best experience in my life.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm ready to go again.
[SPEAKER_05]: Would you like to?
[SPEAKER_05]: We were like, oh, I was like, I mean, I still want to do another one now, you know?
[SPEAKER_05]: But I was like, yes, yes, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so,
[SPEAKER_05]: She said, well, look, as soon as I heal, let's give it a year, and then let's give another go.
[SPEAKER_05]: We, honestly, that was sort of what we thought about for the next, you know, obviously we're just having a baby and pandemic and everything else.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then we gave it another go and she got pregnant again and sadly that wasn't a topic pregnancy.
[SPEAKER_05]: But again, she was like, you know, what?
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm fine.
[SPEAKER_05]: She, you know, she said, give me a few months.
[SPEAKER_05]: And
[SPEAKER_05]: Once again, we were all kind of there for all the scans, everything else, and that was obviously a blow, but then we gave it the third attempt and lo and behold, she got pregnant again.
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, this woman, she said to us, she was like the most fertile person she knew, she got pregnant with that first child, most on the coil, and her second child was on the pill, and she was like, honestly, I've got this cover, don't worry.
[SPEAKER_05]: And obviously, and then we had a beautiful little Teddy, and we,
[SPEAKER_05]: are absolutely the luckiest people in the world.
[SPEAKER_05]: I cannot say that if she didn't come to us now and say, would you like to go again, that I wouldn't leap out the track?
[SPEAKER_05]: Because I would have another baby and also we're kind of in a part of London where it's like they're going to napy valley because there are so many kids right here.
[SPEAKER_00]: and all our friends have got babies and so I'm like, uh, baby, uh, baby.
[SPEAKER_05]: On the weird dad, now, who's like, can I touch your baby?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and you know, all the moms are kind of like, oh, God, Jake again, yes, we know you want another child.
[SPEAKER_05]: How does told everyone?
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, I know, we know, we're kind of, and we, we speak to her and, you know, we can only, I would kill for another one.
[SPEAKER_05]: God.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my God.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm, I'm more, I'm less convinced.
[SPEAKER_04]: I feel like our family is complete.
[SPEAKER_05]: And what is the complete family really?
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not here to discuss.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think her name has a father of three.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think two is very sweet.
[SPEAKER_05]: But let's talk more about being a father of three.
[SPEAKER_05]: And how is that for you?
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, when you're crossing the street and you have more, you know, less hands that's a hold, then the, you know, that's where it gets like really complicated.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's interesting.
[SPEAKER_03]: I having three kids, 15 months and under was like a literal shit show.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I absolutely, as they've gotten older, I mean, just the fact that they're all close to the age, I do, I do, I do love it.
[SPEAKER_03]: But, yeah, three, three is a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: There is a lot.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it would be wonderful.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, wonderful.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: Can we tell you guys also, we're happy to talk for another 20 minutes or whatever?
[SPEAKER_05]: Are we that to tell you a little bit about it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I was going to ask you about it because I saw that you have it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, please do, because it looks like a beautiful book and we all need to go buy it for ourselves.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, let's go.
[SPEAKER_05]: This is, so this is the silly-friendly dress, and it's current by Hannah and I, and illustrated by a fantastic woman called Luchia Sotto.
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, if you just look at some of the illustrations, you know, it is just beautiful, there's little sunny.
[SPEAKER_05]: This is a young person who, you know, you're kind of assuming is, it's basically my story.
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, look at all that.
[SPEAKER_05]: And it's my story, and it's about a little sine female, a birth person called sunny, but this is like an agenda free book.
[SPEAKER_05]: It is just about a little person who doesn't want to wear a dress.
[SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, my story growing up was just that, you know, I grew up in a household which was very kind of conservative and my family, my parents didn't have a lot of LGBT friends, you know, I was a new who I was from a very young age.
[SPEAKER_05]: It wasn't because of YouTube, it wasn't because of, you know, anything else, any external influence other than I was who I was.
[SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, my parents were great, my mother knows my biggest champion.
[SPEAKER_05]: But at the time I was like, I don't want to wear a dress and this was every Christmas and birthday and holiday and I began as a little kid to dread Christmas in a weird way because I knew that would be, you know, being put in a dress and, you know, as a small person having those moments ruined because it meant, you know, the humiliation which it was to me humiliation of
[SPEAKER_05]: being put into a dress.
[SPEAKER_05]: I would not want any other little kid to feel like that.
[SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, we are so into our gender roles and rules of, you know, girls, pink and boys, blue and girls must wear dresses and look pretty and boys must be strapping and big and play football and, you know, this is what we are thinking as a society should be trying to push away from, you know, interestingly, when I, when we've read this to our daughters, you know, psyche putting
[SPEAKER_05]: When I've read this, what do I do?
[SPEAKER_05]: Because R2 are the ugliest girls in the world.
[SPEAKER_05]: And when Lily and Teddy read it, Lily's like, I don't get it.
[SPEAKER_05]: Why doesn't she want to wear a dress?
[SPEAKER_05]: What's wrong with her?
[SPEAKER_05]: I literally, you know, off she goes to put on her pinkest unicorniest rainbowist.
[SPEAKER_05]: But, you know, there are so many little kids.
[SPEAKER_05]: And obviously, I'd like it to appeal to trans kids as well, trans boys.
[SPEAKER_05]: But, we know that we are in the minority.
[SPEAKER_05]: We know that there are so many little girls who might turn out queer, who might turn out gender non-conforming, who hopefully this book will make feel a little less alone.
[SPEAKER_05]: And that, for us, would be job done and would be our dream.
[SPEAKER_02]: Every, I'll tell you what, um, my daughter's 12, and she was a little girl who hated dresses, hated them, hated them.
[SPEAKER_02]: We, uh, we just couldn't get it away.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's right here.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's making fun of me right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, but this book would have been great for her too.
[SPEAKER_02]: And now she, and now 12, and all of a sudden, she started wearing skirts.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a really weird thing has happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: Really?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, a really weird thing has happened.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I saw her recently and she looked amazing and she knew her dress.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I don't think my daughter, Lila, I've twin girls, London and Lila.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, well, by the way, London comes from where my late husband proposed on the London I Ferris wheel.
[SPEAKER_03]: So my goal that's beautiful, cleared out a capsule and everything.
[SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So her name is London Rose.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a tribute to to him.
[SPEAKER_03]: My daughter, Lila, again, has not worn a dress since she was three and she's, well, will be 12 in a few weeks and she will never wear a dress.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't see Len, I don't see Lila ever wearing a dress ever.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's what I love about both of them.
[SPEAKER_03]: One is like your daughter, like, you know, a very girly girl.
[SPEAKER_03]: She farts glitter.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like she just, you know, um, I have to yell at her for not walking down the stairs wearing makeup.
[SPEAKER_03]: And when the other one cannot just is not interested, blues are favorite color and, you know, she's a sports girl and, and, you know, we'll see where she identifies in the future.
[SPEAKER_03]: But a book like that would have been magical.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm excited to promote it and purchase it and show her because even at 12 years old, she can read that book and totally appreciate it.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, no.
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, we know that, obviously, it is available for U.S. audiences.
[SPEAKER_05]: What was it that they say?
[SPEAKER_05]: Blackwells?
[SPEAKER_04]: Blackwells?
[SPEAKER_05]: Blackwells?
[SPEAKER_05]: Black
[SPEAKER_05]: address, but I have to say our absolute dream would be to get onto the band book's list so that we can just say, you know what?
[SPEAKER_05]: We go onto the band's book list.
[SPEAKER_05]: So if there's any way to, you know, make out that this is a lot more contentious than it is just than we can get onto that list, that that's the dream.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, let's let's work on it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was going to say don't threaten me with a good time.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, this podcast is full of parents of young kids or potential like soon to be parents and they're going to they're going to fill they're going to fill this their shelf with this book they're this is going to be one of the books on their shelves and that would be amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm a huge fan of reading, like I teach through books with my kids, like so they learned about our families through books.
[SPEAKER_02]: They learned about how babies are made through children's books.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, so I'm a huge, huge fan of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So everybody go buy the book, go get the book.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the more people who buy it, the more likely it is that the far right is going to see it.
[SPEAKER_02]: and want to ban it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, come on, we know our job, it's the gauge and let's go.
[SPEAKER_05]: Let's go.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's so nice how they just curate these lists of like wonderful books that we want to buy by banning them.
[SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[SPEAKER_05]: But no, that would be fantastic.
[SPEAKER_05]: So thank you so much for that little plug.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, of course.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the a link to it will be in the show notes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, so everybody can just click the link.
[SPEAKER_05]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, this has been just so fabulous talking to you too and getting to know you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm so glad you agreed to come on the show.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's been absolutely lovely, I've said 10 past 9 in the UK and we've been doing interviews and TV all day and things, but this has been, I have to say, an absolute highlight of the day and I've been that absolutely genuinely, so thank you both so much.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god, thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I love you too.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much Jose, thank you for co-hosting with me.
[SPEAKER_03]: My gosh, this is magical.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and please keep in touch.
[SPEAKER_02]: You are a member of the family now, so members of the family, so.
[SPEAKER_05]: I need to hear.
[SPEAKER_02]: A huge, huge thank you to our sponsor of this year episode, California Cryo Bank.
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't forget to use Code ClearFam26 to get that free level 3 subscription to their donor catalog.
[SPEAKER_02]: Go make those babies y'all and then come tell me about them.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's do this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Whew, well folks, I hope you enjoyed that episode as much as I enjoyed it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you did enjoy it, feel free to listen to another or watch another.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have so many episodes for your listening or viewing pleasure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just go pick one and enjoy.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot, there really is.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also, if you really do like this show, please, I know I say it all the time, but please do consider supporting the show on Patreon.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're just gonna go to patreon.com, slash the queer family podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're gonna pick a tear, you're gonna join, and you're gonna get that bonus content.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you're also gonna get my love and adoration for the rest of my life.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love you all.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for tuning in, keep on tuning in.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'll see you next time.