WEBVTT 00:00.511 --> 00:07.353 [SPEAKER_00]: Today, we are talking about something that so many couples silently struggle with, and that is intimacy pressure. 00:07.573 --> 00:09.554 [SPEAKER_02]: And we're not just talking about sex. 00:09.614 --> 00:12.395 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we're talking about emotional safety. 00:12.455 --> 00:18.336 [SPEAKER_02]: We're talking about what happens when couples start feeling disconnected around their intimacy. 00:18.916 --> 00:23.058 [SPEAKER_00]: One person can start feeling rejected, lonely and wanted. 00:23.358 --> 00:27.759 [SPEAKER_02]: While the other person feels overwhelmed, anxious, and like they're not enough, 00:28.235 --> 00:34.040 [SPEAKER_00]: And the hardest part is that usually both people are hurting at the exact same time and they don't know how to come together. 00:34.621 --> 00:46.612 [SPEAKER_02]: So today we're talking about how couples accidentally start these pressure cycles and how emotional safety leaves their relationship and they both begin to feel resentful. 00:46.993 --> 00:52.538 [SPEAKER_00]: And we also, of course, share our own story because we've lived both sides of this. 00:52.885 --> 01:02.135 [SPEAKER_02]: So if intimacy is begun to feel heavy, avoidant, and create conflict, we're going to help you understand today exactly why that's happening. 01:02.495 --> 01:11.745 [SPEAKER_00]: And next week in part two, we're going to be really talking about how couples can rebuild intimacy, connection, emotional safety without the pressure. 01:12.166 --> 01:13.047 [SPEAKER_02]: So let's get into it. 01:18.273 --> 01:22.096 [SPEAKER_00]: Hello, all and welcome to the Relationship Innovation Podcast. 01:22.196 --> 01:23.217 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Tira Kerofin. 01:23.477 --> 01:24.979 [SPEAKER_02]: And my name is E.J. 01:25.059 --> 01:34.407 [SPEAKER_02]: Kerluen, and this is a great topic, because one, it's one that we really have have worked through ourselves. 01:35.187 --> 01:41.589 [SPEAKER_02]: Over years, it's something we are part of the pun, but like intimately connected to. 01:42.170 --> 01:48.372 [SPEAKER_02]: But it's also something that we see almost every couple struggle with at some point in their relationship. 01:48.392 --> 01:55.134 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's so difficult and it's such a hard thing to talk about and not having the skills or how to talk about it. 01:55.194 --> 01:58.195 [SPEAKER_00]: I think people get really confused and perplexed about it. 01:58.255 --> 01:59.016 [SPEAKER_00]: So here we are. 01:59.036 --> 02:02.317 [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to talk about pressure and intimacy today. 02:03.195 --> 02:17.917 [SPEAKER_02]: And a great place if you haven't already listened to, we have a series all about emotional and physical intimacy and that's that's great because it kind of breaks down the whole spectrum of intimacy because that's something we talk about. 02:18.377 --> 02:23.799 [SPEAKER_02]: we believe is important that we have to cultivate all aspects of intimacy. 02:24.519 --> 02:35.982 [SPEAKER_02]: And so what we want to really clarify as we begin is that this pressure around intimacy that we're going to be talking about, it's rarely just about sex. 02:36.062 --> 02:38.223 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's not just about sex people. 02:39.425 --> 02:50.533 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, but it oftentimes may be sort of sex is the aspect of the relationship that that sort of is the main signal. 02:50.953 --> 03:02.322 [SPEAKER_02]: Like oftentimes when people come into work with us, they say we're struggling with our intimacy, but they're using the word sort of synonymously with sex. 03:02.686 --> 03:04.967 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, and the pressure quietly builds over time. 03:05.007 --> 03:08.168 [SPEAKER_00]: And I have to share this because we're watching the valley season three. 03:08.228 --> 03:12.049 [SPEAKER_00]: I think the one without jacks and like who just had the baby. 03:12.249 --> 03:13.209 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, what's her name? 03:13.369 --> 03:14.330 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it starts with a. 03:15.150 --> 03:17.531 [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, one of the cast members just had a baby. 03:18.471 --> 03:22.255 [SPEAKER_00]: And her partner, her husband, is like, really frustrated. 03:22.355 --> 03:28.400 [SPEAKER_00]: And she's like, the baby is like three months old and she's like, it's the last thing I want to do. 03:28.440 --> 03:30.042 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, watching it last night. 03:30.282 --> 03:34.285 [SPEAKER_00]: This is why we want to talk about it today because I literally was like, we have to talk about that. 03:34.846 --> 03:36.487 [SPEAKER_00]: I could feel what she was feeling. 03:37.208 --> 03:40.992 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, it's like, people don't even understand it until you're in it. 03:41.532 --> 03:45.536 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I can, I know he feels like, oh my gosh, we're not who we used to be. 03:45.576 --> 03:47.778 [SPEAKER_00]: And like, we can't let this baby come between our intimacy. 03:47.798 --> 03:48.839 [SPEAKER_00]: And we used to have such good sex. 03:49.219 --> 03:52.883 [SPEAKER_00]: And I could see her being like, my god, like, I have no energy left. 03:52.923 --> 03:55.125 [SPEAKER_00]: It's the last thing my body doesn't feel like a mine. 03:55.145 --> 03:56.126 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't even know who I am. 03:56.146 --> 03:58.708 [SPEAKER_00]: And so again, I we saw that yesterday. 03:58.748 --> 04:01.811 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's how this topic came to fruition today. 04:02.732 --> 04:18.111 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think like the saddest part, and this is what oftentimes diminishes the more emotional connection and we'll talk a lot about emotional safety in the next two episodes, is that both partners start to feel very alone. 04:19.012 --> 04:27.380 [SPEAKER_02]: but sort of what they're struggling with at its core and sort of like what it is that's agitating them is very different. 04:27.520 --> 04:33.726 [SPEAKER_02]: But at the bottom line is it's a it's a disconnecting moment in their relationship. 04:33.806 --> 04:34.947 [SPEAKER_00]: Because you felt what? 04:36.218 --> 04:36.859 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, let's see. 04:37.800 --> 04:40.502 [SPEAKER_02]: I felt, well, I mean, a lot of times felt unwanted. 04:41.103 --> 04:42.344 [SPEAKER_02]: I felt frustrated. 04:42.364 --> 04:44.826 [SPEAKER_02]: I felt alone. 04:46.307 --> 05:00.340 [SPEAKER_02]: And then rejected, like, I think that's like the hardest thing that one partner really starts to drop into is they just feel like, man, she just doesn't want me, she doesn't want to be around me, she doesn't even know what doesn't seem like she likes me. 05:00.807 --> 05:12.941 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was feeling very overwhelmed, anxious, nervous, and like what I was doing wasn't enough so that like you're just objectifying me kind of, that's how I was feeling. 05:13.641 --> 05:17.225 [SPEAKER_00]: Yet, we didn't know that that's how each other was feeling. 05:17.286 --> 05:18.867 [SPEAKER_00]: We just let that pressure build. 05:19.588 --> 05:23.312 [SPEAKER_00]: And then it became this like egg shell topic. 05:23.372 --> 05:28.177 [SPEAKER_00]: And it never had been in our relationship before like we were so comfortable even during pregnancy. 05:28.718 --> 05:30.240 [SPEAKER_00]: We had awesome fun. 05:31.181 --> 05:35.585 [SPEAKER_00]: And then it was just like over those first two years after the baby like we had no idea. 05:36.306 --> 05:40.347 [SPEAKER_00]: So again, here we are, and we're going to kind of start with how pressure even enters the system. 05:40.367 --> 05:50.050 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, and that little sort of story you said there about how everything had been like fun and easy for like quite some time. 05:50.631 --> 05:57.473 [SPEAKER_02]: And then when it started to break down, that that that means sort of descriptor we're using today is pressure. 05:57.993 --> 06:03.895 [SPEAKER_02]: It was like everything around our connection started to feel like highly pressurized. 06:04.439 --> 06:07.301 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so let's talk about how pressure enters the system. 06:07.581 --> 06:08.221 [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely. 06:08.301 --> 06:14.405 [SPEAKER_00]: For me, and I want to talk about like, I just had these like expectations that you'd be cool. 06:14.445 --> 06:16.446 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I have these two babies. 06:16.526 --> 06:25.292 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I didn't know what it would be like for me, but I honestly expected that you would just be like, oh yeah, of course, she's like definitely like not going to be herself that you would be more. 06:25.732 --> 06:29.614 [SPEAKER_00]: My expectations that you would be more patient because I didn't even know what my process was like. 06:29.634 --> 06:32.336 [SPEAKER_00]: So on talked about expectations. 06:32.567 --> 06:54.132 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah and it's almost like intimacy begins to feel like really loaded because eventually right is there's like there's the symptom right it's like you know we're not having sex we're now feeling a little emotionally distant right and that starts to feel like conflict 06:54.892 --> 07:07.856 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and then because our perspectives are so different or like many couples like, you know, like using that same example from the valley like any time you talk about it It starts to feel like you're it's oppositional. 07:08.116 --> 07:08.416 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 07:08.516 --> 07:11.937 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's like, well, this is what's happening for me. 07:12.417 --> 07:21.420 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, very very So like what would you say on your side Tara contributed to the the pressure around what would the needs that you have? 07:22.152 --> 07:26.094 [SPEAKER_00]: So again, everybody's different, but I'm a people pleaser. 07:27.055 --> 07:31.758 [SPEAKER_00]: And like, I don't like when people are uncomfortable, that's like my right wounded child self. 07:32.298 --> 07:37.901 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I could feel your impatience and frustration, but you weren't talking about it. 07:38.522 --> 07:44.725 [SPEAKER_00]: So then I would get like really nervous and my anxious attachment would be like, oh my gosh, it's been like two weeks. 07:44.745 --> 07:46.967 [SPEAKER_00]: I'd start counting in my head, like it's been two weeks. 07:47.707 --> 07:49.488 [SPEAKER_00]: He's starting to get sexually frustrated. 07:49.948 --> 07:59.171 [SPEAKER_00]: Like that for me, I could feel your suffering, but I didn't I thought it was like anger or I don't know like I that's the only way I could describe it. 07:59.211 --> 08:07.734 [SPEAKER_02]: Well and and I read that right and so like and and I think it's this way with a lot of couples and and it's not just you know we're kind of using like the pregnancy thing but this 08:08.474 --> 08:11.655 [SPEAKER_02]: Disconnection happens for for a ton or something. 08:11.675 --> 08:17.218 [SPEAKER_02]: Just people's libido changes You're not cultivating other aspects of your relationship. 08:17.238 --> 08:24.701 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's there's there's just a lot going on But it you know in our case like I sensed it, right? 08:24.721 --> 08:36.626 [SPEAKER_02]: Like I sensed you know that that it was hard on you too Like I got that you would tell me you would say like you don't think I will you know that I don't want to want and so Yeah, that's true 08:37.204 --> 08:43.946 [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, I would sort of, we would only talk about it episodically, and that's when the pressure built. 08:44.147 --> 09:01.473 [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, when there was already pressure that existed, but most couples that we talk to, when we ask them about like, you know, when they're at the beginning of the process, we're trying to have an understanding of what's going on, they, they will both say, like, yeah, they're definitely like, we're intimately disconnected. 09:02.193 --> 09:09.259 [SPEAKER_02]: And we'll say like, well, how much are you guys talking about it and they'll say like almost not at all. 09:09.960 --> 09:18.527 [SPEAKER_02]: And so whether you like us, where we were talking about it, episodically maybe once every like four or six weeks, the pressure would build then. 09:18.547 --> 09:19.147 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 09:19.488 --> 09:28.735 [SPEAKER_02]: But some couples when they don't talk about it at all, then the pressure is building like silently over weeks, months, sometimes years. 09:29.736 --> 09:33.339 [SPEAKER_00]: I also feel like this is where powerlessness comes in. 09:33.519 --> 09:49.592 [SPEAKER_00]: I could see from both sides because I remember thinking, like everything was so good and like we were so excited to have our babies and blend our family and now this is a shit show and like, oh my god, did we make a mistake? 09:50.332 --> 10:04.599 [SPEAKER_00]: Like we're now angry like there's this pressure in our system that we never thought and so it was like this You're like kind of creating like that is this even real like this isn't what I thought it would be at all and then there's that fear that Did I make a mistake? 10:05.280 --> 10:09.342 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean that that's the thing that fear starts to kind of underwrite this system. 10:09.362 --> 10:09.842 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah 10:10.222 --> 10:16.392 [SPEAKER_02]: And the bottom line is the whole relationship begins to feel pressureized, right? 10:16.452 --> 10:24.964 [SPEAKER_02]: Like there's just like this like we're walking around like like not trying to step on grenades, you know, it's just like, oh, like 10:26.245 --> 10:43.532 [SPEAKER_02]: Nothing feels safe and then one dynamic that really starts out in that moment is There's this pursuer with drar cycle right and in that you know one partner is sort of sometimes the one who's reaching out more 10:44.172 --> 10:47.555 [SPEAKER_02]: and then one partner is the one who's protecting more. 10:47.875 --> 10:57.983 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think the interesting thing with most couples and deafened with us was sometimes I would be the pursuer and you would be the one sort of trying to protect yourself. 10:58.303 --> 11:06.850 [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes you would be the pursuer in pursuing like, okay, like, maybe you weren't pursuing sex, but maybe you were pursuing emotional connection. 11:07.210 --> 11:11.654 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe you were pursuing us making our relationship 11:13.275 --> 11:20.401 [SPEAKER_02]: And maybe I was protecting because it was like, well, yeah, but if I, if I do that, it's just going to lead to like rejection as some point. 11:20.441 --> 11:29.107 [SPEAKER_02]: So why would I want to jump on board with you on that when the end result is me feeling badly about our relationship and about myself? 11:29.268 --> 11:34.772 [SPEAKER_00]: I think the pursuer with draw cycle like absent flows and both partners can be in both. 11:35.512 --> 11:39.195 [SPEAKER_00]: I just remember the pressure that built the anxiety. 11:40.376 --> 11:44.900 [SPEAKER_00]: that built the walls around for me. 11:44.940 --> 11:46.262 [SPEAKER_00]: It was like our sex life. 11:47.263 --> 11:54.389 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I just remember thinking like, oh my gosh, he wants just to have sex and we haven't been on a date in like eight months. 11:54.469 --> 11:55.871 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, fuck no. 11:56.531 --> 11:59.994 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I started to like, I don't want to say weaponize. 12:01.284 --> 12:08.870 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe we didn't have quality date nights, but you would be fine to happen anytime for sex and bed. 12:09.851 --> 12:12.653 [SPEAKER_00]: But don't you see that we need a date night? 12:13.234 --> 12:16.436 [SPEAKER_00]: I need to find out who I am again in that way. 12:16.496 --> 12:20.139 [SPEAKER_00]: I can't just have all these children and then go to bed and have sex. 12:20.239 --> 12:28.206 [SPEAKER_00]: I need to cultivate that part of me that feels beautiful and sexy and going out to a nice dinner and having a nice glass of wine. 12:28.986 --> 12:31.328 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I remember that was like a huge piece of it. 12:31.428 --> 12:33.069 [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, I'm not giving you that. 12:33.149 --> 12:45.199 [SPEAKER_00]: If you can't cultivate this, and that is totally what kept us on opposite sides too, because I'm like, you would be like, Taylor, like, when is the last time we're intimate and I'd be like, AJ, when's the last time you took me on a date? 12:45.759 --> 12:46.360 [SPEAKER_00]: was awful. 12:46.400 --> 12:47.060 [SPEAKER_00]: It was awful. 12:47.140 --> 12:49.282 [SPEAKER_00]: I remember it was terrible. 12:49.722 --> 12:50.823 [SPEAKER_00]: It can't be that way. 12:50.924 --> 12:52.865 [SPEAKER_00]: Both people have to work together in it. 12:53.326 --> 12:55.868 [SPEAKER_00]: It can't be me waiting for you to cultivate date nights. 12:56.468 --> 12:59.571 [SPEAKER_00]: And then maybe like, okay, now you're doing a really good job of that. 12:59.611 --> 13:01.993 [SPEAKER_00]: So that may be it because it's not really about that. 13:02.293 --> 13:18.067 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, and it ceases to be about the actual intimate connection, emotionally, playfully, spiritually, sexually, and it just becomes about the pressurized cycle, and you don't realize it. 13:18.427 --> 13:23.692 [SPEAKER_02]: You think it's still about the content, but really, it's because you're polarized, 13:24.192 --> 13:26.134 [SPEAKER_02]: and sort of how you're approaching it. 13:26.494 --> 13:33.220 [SPEAKER_02]: And ultimately, in a lot of ways, like sort of trying to protect your nervous system, right? 13:33.500 --> 13:50.194 [SPEAKER_02]: Because that was the other thing is like, you know, the last thing I wanted was to activate you to make you feel bad, to have it ruined, like, you know, yeah, maybe we won't go on a day, but like maybe we were still having like, having drinks out on our porch, 13:51.575 --> 13:56.136 [SPEAKER_02]: And reading questions to one another, which is, you know, we tried to kill you in the background. 13:56.156 --> 13:56.977 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes. 13:57.397 --> 13:58.357 [SPEAKER_00]: But so sexy. 13:58.777 --> 14:02.678 [SPEAKER_02]: But so I was like, well, I don't want to even freaking like ruin that part of it. 14:03.218 --> 14:05.099 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to stop pursuing. 14:05.119 --> 14:05.899 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 14:05.919 --> 14:08.860 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to not even bring it up. 14:08.920 --> 14:09.500 [SPEAKER_00]: You resign. 14:09.760 --> 14:25.864 [SPEAKER_02]: I resign and you were a lot of times asking me to not resign, you were asking me and this kind of gets into a lot of what we'll probably talk about in the next episode, you were asking me to accept where it currently was. 14:25.924 --> 14:31.985 [SPEAKER_02]: When you were really coming from like your more balanced place, you know, and you would try like all these ways. 14:32.025 --> 14:33.286 [SPEAKER_02]: I remember one time you were like, 14:35.106 --> 15:04.104 [SPEAKER_02]: Just pretend my vagina is broken, it's just broke, it just doesn't work, so just like let's just like take that off the table and I get now what you are trying to do, you know like let's just think like this one area right now is just not happening, let's just focus on the other stuff and I really like I struggled with that and I think I also got into this like headspace that I see a ton of people get into, 15:05.204 --> 15:09.646 [SPEAKER_02]: where I really thought you are almost like purposefully withholding it. 15:09.746 --> 15:16.108 [SPEAKER_02]: And especially that conversation about like, well, we haven't had a date, would make me feel like, okay, I now get it. 15:16.588 --> 15:21.849 [SPEAKER_02]: Because we're so busy, because we have a business, because we have all these kids, I'm being punished. 15:22.670 --> 15:22.850 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 15:22.870 --> 15:29.632 [SPEAKER_02]: Because like, you know, because we can't literally make the time to do it, you're withholding something for me. 15:30.492 --> 15:40.274 [SPEAKER_02]: And then ultimately, what happens is the whole idea of intimacy feels unsafe to both people. 15:41.414 --> 15:50.536 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, and here's another thing that happens because I was so anxious and overwhelmed, and I knew that like having physical connections, sex was important to you. 15:51.276 --> 15:56.237 [SPEAKER_00]: I would be like, first of all, I would be so relieved when my periods would start because 15:57.097 --> 16:17.668 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to tell them and like I've got five days with no pressure like I would literally be so excited for my periods to start or I would just like Disconnect and be like okay, we're just going to have to have sex because that's going to like buy me two weeks Like I literally just did not want to feel anxious and overwhelmed so just make myself have sex. 16:17.688 --> 16:18.629 [SPEAKER_00]: You never force me. 16:18.669 --> 16:19.529 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to say that. 16:20.790 --> 16:25.713 [SPEAKER_00]: I would do it so I'd be like, so I could have two weeks of like calm, and that it's so unhealthy. 16:25.833 --> 16:31.676 [SPEAKER_00]: But people do it because they, that pressurized system, and we're trying to say, like, it can be different. 16:32.056 --> 16:33.476 [SPEAKER_00]: We know it because we're living it now. 16:33.737 --> 16:42.261 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, and I would, I think most times when when you were like on the verge of like forcing yourself, and we'd be sort of in that mode, 16:42.801 --> 16:53.636 [SPEAKER_02]: I think you you might remember I'd be like I don't want to do this like yeah, you could feel like yeah, you're not into this like like and and that's that's almost It's almost like on your side. 16:53.716 --> 16:57.921 [SPEAKER_02]: You thought you were making some sacrifice that was going to make me happy 16:59.043 --> 17:04.530 [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, no, this is almost worse if you're just saying like your vagina's broke. 17:04.550 --> 17:08.575 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, then I can, you know, I can kind of get what's going on here. 17:09.216 --> 17:13.321 [SPEAKER_02]: But if you're like making yourself do that with me, 17:14.262 --> 17:16.863 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, like, that feels like, that feels yucky. 17:17.063 --> 17:17.864 [SPEAKER_02]: I know, I froze. 17:17.964 --> 17:22.285 [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like caretaking intimacy could it be its own podcast, but there's two parts of it. 17:22.305 --> 17:25.907 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, one is like, oh, I can see that they are really stressed out. 17:25.967 --> 17:31.269 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm gonna like, not even let them know that I still have feelings of frisking us for them, right? 17:31.329 --> 17:38.652 [SPEAKER_00]: That's like, no, you want to be able to like, be you and share all your frisky feelings with your partner and how much you love them and you find them attractive. 17:39.152 --> 17:40.953 [SPEAKER_00]: And then there's also the caretaking intimacy. 17:43.954 --> 17:49.116 [SPEAKER_00]: so that they can be relieved and then we can like move on and then I know in another couple of weeks they'll have to write. 17:49.136 --> 17:53.018 [SPEAKER_00]: So both of those are caretaking intimacy and it's really unhealthy. 17:53.198 --> 17:58.020 [SPEAKER_00]: It truly builds more pressure and it disconnects you from like your heart. 17:58.802 --> 17:59.182 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 17:59.282 --> 18:06.789 [SPEAKER_02]: And then that leads into the ultimate bad scene, which is that all intimacy stops feeling safe. 18:06.930 --> 18:07.170 [SPEAKER_02]: Right. 18:07.210 --> 18:08.471 [SPEAKER_02]: That's it for you. 18:08.611 --> 18:13.896 [SPEAKER_02]: Physical intimacy doesn't feel safe for me, emotional intimacy doesn't feel safe. 18:14.497 --> 18:20.662 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's just like, it's just this trap of like rejection and avoidance. 18:21.023 --> 18:23.966 [SPEAKER_02]: And the fear, the fear of the pressure of like, 18:24.606 --> 18:45.596 [SPEAKER_02]: But like, I don't know if I had it as like, directly as you as far as like, oh, the pressure is off, but I think like on some level, there was like a little bit of like when we would occasionally, you know, hook up, it would be like, oh, okay, like we still, like that works. 18:45.676 --> 18:46.997 [SPEAKER_02]: Like we could, we can do that. 18:47.037 --> 18:50.939 [SPEAKER_02]: But then automatically I would feel almost like pressure again. 18:51.819 --> 18:54.100 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, like, okay, when's the next time? 18:54.120 --> 18:54.640 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, my goodness. 18:54.720 --> 18:56.200 [SPEAKER_02]: Is that just like a total anomaly? 18:56.240 --> 19:01.001 [SPEAKER_02]: Is it going to be like two or three months before we connect in that way again? 19:01.061 --> 19:06.082 [SPEAKER_02]: And so the pressure automatically would start building right again. 19:06.302 --> 19:08.183 [SPEAKER_00]: And I love this because you wrote this down. 19:08.223 --> 19:09.343 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's so true. 19:09.423 --> 19:12.004 [SPEAKER_00]: It's obligation replaces curiosity. 19:12.024 --> 19:17.145 [SPEAKER_00]: Because I remember like very few and far between dates did we have in those first couple of years 19:21.246 --> 19:22.267 [SPEAKER_00]: four children under five. 19:22.287 --> 19:35.439 [SPEAKER_00]: I will say I would be getting ready for a date and I would be so anxious I'm like oh my god he's gonna expect that we're gonna hook up tonight like it wasn't even like I'm so excited for our date and I'm gonna go out and we're gonna have so much fun. 19:35.459 --> 19:39.643 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna come back when I have awesome sex like I felt that obligation piece. 19:40.023 --> 19:46.749 [SPEAKER_00]: So then I would literally sabotage it like I don't know if you remember this but like our first few days I'd always end it up in our 19:48.130 --> 20:06.508 [SPEAKER_00]: Because I was and but that it wasn't like I'm going to get into an argument right at 11 o'clock But it was so much anxiety and then throughout the night it would build by the tip closer We would get to be going home and then it was just like it just awful I just remember I mean it was years ago like 10 years ago I remember like it was yesterday 20:07.228 --> 20:28.180 [SPEAKER_02]: And I also really hope this is okay saying, so you can tell me cut it if you don't like it, but like our intimacy struggles began after the twins were born but because we didn't know how to deal with it in a healthy way, it prolonged over almost 10 years. 20:36.544 --> 20:45.498 [SPEAKER_02]: But it went on much longer because of the fact that we didn't have a healthy way of pulling pressure out of the system. 20:45.638 --> 20:48.102 [SPEAKER_00]: So for people out there, because we did it now. 20:48.743 --> 20:51.227 [SPEAKER_02]: There's all kinds of different reasons. 20:51.767 --> 21:04.943 [SPEAKER_02]: That year intimacy goes offline and you guys pull apart in that way and then it just becomes almost the normal We see that with so many couples where we have couples who like we haven't you know We haven't had sex in five years. 21:06.004 --> 21:09.689 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we we have sex like two or three times a year 21:11.090 --> 21:35.606 [SPEAKER_02]: right and that and that can go on for a long time and it's just it's really hard because that is you know we talked a lot about this as we got healthier and healthier but it is like like what is sex and why is it important and it's like important we sort of identify because it's like it's like one of the really unique aspects of this relationship you know it's 21:39.463 --> 21:52.428 [SPEAKER_02]: Unless you're in a polyamorous really, yes, of course, but in our relationship and most of the couples we work with, yeah, it is one of the like sweet aspects that that you get to have with your partner. 21:54.339 --> 21:59.825 [SPEAKER_00]: So before we move on, again, obligation replaces curiosity. 22:00.245 --> 22:06.371 [SPEAKER_02]: And then ultimately what happens is that couples attach new meanings to sex. 22:06.431 --> 22:12.678 [SPEAKER_02]: Instead of sex being something that brings you together, that's fun, that's playful. 22:12.878 --> 22:15.399 [SPEAKER_00]: And you can see this in the valley with her name's Kristen. 22:15.880 --> 22:17.581 [SPEAKER_00]: Dude, she loved sex. 22:17.701 --> 22:20.823 [SPEAKER_00]: She loved having like, she was so flirty they had a ball. 22:21.183 --> 22:25.645 [SPEAKER_00]: And you could see just like as soon as he even brings it up, like literally her eyes roll. 22:26.005 --> 22:30.408 [SPEAKER_00]: She has like immediate like this, oh, don't even talk about that. 22:30.488 --> 22:33.850 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, oh, we create our own new stories now because of this pressure. 22:34.390 --> 22:36.711 [SPEAKER_00]: And they are so freaking believable. 22:36.872 --> 22:38.953 [SPEAKER_02]: And there's things like, you don't want me, 22:39.553 --> 22:41.014 [SPEAKER_00]: All you care about is that. 22:41.134 --> 22:42.875 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't you see all the other shit I do? 22:42.895 --> 22:44.396 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm not enough. 22:44.717 --> 22:49.140 [SPEAKER_02]: And nothing I'm doing is leading you to the place where you want to be with me in that way. 22:49.160 --> 22:51.041 [SPEAKER_00]: I only matter when we're physical. 22:51.101 --> 22:53.202 [SPEAKER_00]: You're only happy after we have sex. 22:53.643 --> 22:56.084 [SPEAKER_02]: And then a big one, you know, we're just roommates. 22:56.565 --> 22:58.886 [SPEAKER_02]: We're just raising this family. 22:58.946 --> 23:01.548 [SPEAKER_02]: We're just doing our jobs, paying our bills. 23:02.168 --> 23:04.790 [SPEAKER_02]: We are really just roommates now. 23:05.411 --> 23:07.052 [SPEAKER_00]: And no one needs to like that. 23:10.614 --> 23:26.507 [SPEAKER_02]: And how to talk about this jumps back to the whole thing about how this obligation sort of negates curiosity because curiosity is what helps you understand your partner better, it's what makes you feel more understood as a partner. 23:27.208 --> 23:31.811 [SPEAKER_02]: And so when there's no curiosity, you just stop talking about it. 23:31.851 --> 23:35.995 [SPEAKER_02]: You're like, we've tried doesn't work why even for 23:36.595 --> 23:39.217 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because you're talking about it in a pressurized way. 23:39.237 --> 23:41.198 [SPEAKER_00]: And so now it doesn't feel safe. 23:41.258 --> 23:43.420 [SPEAKER_00]: And so conversations just don't happen. 23:43.440 --> 23:45.662 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, conversations feel dangerous. 23:45.982 --> 23:50.245 [SPEAKER_02]: It feels like if we talk about this, it's just going to lead the conflict. 23:50.265 --> 23:52.326 [SPEAKER_02]: Like we had to come up with some rules around like, 23:53.347 --> 24:09.175 [SPEAKER_00]: when the talkbook is even like the setting would be bad like because often times when would we talk about it when we were in bed alone together yeah and it's such a vulnerable thing and it's you kind of feel broken each of you individually but don't know how to talk about it because you're trying to understand it yourself 24:09.788 --> 24:24.440 [SPEAKER_02]: Defensiveness and hopelessness grow, which is not a good atmosphere for healthy communication and this is like so, so, so sad, silence feels safer, you know, just let's not even go there or anything. 24:24.460 --> 24:29.404 [SPEAKER_00]: But it doesn't feel safe, it feels safe, but it doesn't also feel like awful. 24:30.374 --> 24:37.357 [SPEAKER_02]: And then we'll also what happened between the two of us is that we both resented each other for different reasons. 24:38.237 --> 24:38.737 [SPEAKER_02]: No bueno. 24:39.198 --> 24:44.900 [SPEAKER_02]: This is interesting because we're ending this episode really just 24:46.033 --> 24:49.275 [SPEAKER_02]: you know, sort of mired in the problem, right? 24:49.915 --> 25:04.382 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's some ways it's good because it's really like representative of how couples feel like everything we just described is like a really, it's a big downer. 25:04.802 --> 25:05.563 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 25:05.823 --> 25:07.824 [SPEAKER_02]: It really is disconnecting. 25:08.685 --> 25:24.396 [SPEAKER_02]: It's our perspectives and our experiences were so different from one another, and we didn't know how to talk about it in an empathetic way, and we certainly didn't know how to take the pressure around intimacy away. 25:24.616 --> 25:29.920 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I love what you said, Haria, said, most couples stop talking honestly before they stop touching. 25:29.940 --> 25:30.660 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 25:30.680 --> 25:31.361 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 25:31.581 --> 25:33.803 [SPEAKER_02]: I would say that's absolutely accurate for us. 25:33.863 --> 25:35.424 [SPEAKER_00]: Say it again, just so people can hear it. 25:35.931 --> 25:40.732 [SPEAKER_02]: Is the most couples stop talking before they stop touching? 25:41.032 --> 25:56.936 [SPEAKER_02]: Honestly, talking honestly is that we weren't talking about, you know, ahead of time, or even early on what the effect of our family dynamics changing was having on us, what you were going through in your body, 25:57.416 --> 26:14.909 [SPEAKER_00]: what you were going through what I was going through like we just we just decided honey badger didn't care at that time you did not get a shit about what you're going through do you see what I'm going through if I'm nursing these babies every hour you have no room here like literally I had that feeling which is so bad 26:15.449 --> 26:16.489 [SPEAKER_02]: But here we go. 26:16.969 --> 26:19.990 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, we're out of this to some good news. 26:20.190 --> 26:24.352 [SPEAKER_02]: And the good news is that you can take pressure out of the system. 26:24.432 --> 26:26.072 [SPEAKER_00]: We know what we're living at people. 26:26.132 --> 26:26.832 [SPEAKER_02]: We lived it. 26:26.972 --> 26:30.213 [SPEAKER_02]: We are much more freedom now that we didn't have. 26:30.273 --> 26:35.455 [SPEAKER_02]: We have the ability to talk about things when things feel a little bit like offline. 26:35.495 --> 26:36.475 [SPEAKER_00]: Emotionally safe. 26:36.835 --> 26:39.156 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we can become emotionally safe again. 26:39.560 --> 26:51.263 [SPEAKER_02]: And not only, you know, I would even maybe like take out again because I think our intimacy was just sort of easy and instinctual early on in our relationship. 26:51.303 --> 27:06.788 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think a lot of couples experience that and we actually through the process of understanding that pressure and taking the pressure out of the system, we became emotionally transparent and emotionally safe. 27:07.408 --> 27:12.813 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe I'll speak for myself maybe for the first time with you, but maybe for with the first time ever with anyone 27:13.169 --> 27:17.271 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, it means something so different to me now, for sure. 27:17.511 --> 27:36.318 [SPEAKER_02]: So our part two is going to focus on how you and your partner collaboratively can take some pressure out of the system, build emotional safety around intimacy, and work towards together the intimate relationship that you really desired. 27:36.358 --> 27:38.139 [SPEAKER_00]: And I would just like to throw this out there. 27:38.179 --> 27:40.280 [SPEAKER_00]: Bravo producers, if you need. 27:41.400 --> 27:45.621 [SPEAKER_00]: some relationship coaches to talk through this on the valley. 27:45.681 --> 27:46.522 [SPEAKER_00]: We are here. 27:46.602 --> 27:47.382 [SPEAKER_00]: We see it. 27:47.442 --> 27:50.123 [SPEAKER_00]: We're like, oh my gosh, they're not going to be vulnerable with each other. 27:50.143 --> 27:51.223 [SPEAKER_00]: They're going to build resentment. 27:51.243 --> 27:53.664 [SPEAKER_00]: And we already know what's going to happen. 27:53.764 --> 27:56.905 [SPEAKER_02]: So just like, that's one of your, like, joining us to be like, uh, 27:57.425 --> 28:01.626 [SPEAKER_02]: To be a cast member on a bravo show, supporting people through their relationships. 28:01.646 --> 28:05.848 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's more of the preventative stuff because you see it build like that whole model we've built. 28:05.868 --> 28:10.589 [SPEAKER_00]: You see it with like the attachment stuff and the resentment and the unspoken expectations. 28:11.069 --> 28:16.031 [SPEAKER_00]: Like me and if you can get really good at doing this in the beginning of a relationship, you guys can make it. 28:16.271 --> 28:19.912 [SPEAKER_02]: and you see people struggle with it without any help. 28:20.533 --> 28:24.174 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, well, if you know a bravo producer, please share this button. 28:24.234 --> 28:24.494 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 28:25.074 --> 28:43.301 [SPEAKER_02]: So, I mean, yeah, but I mean, I think that's about my why we do this, why we're going to do this, this two part series is we've seen over and over when you get support, when you have some tools, when you have some, you know, understanding of what actually is happening, you can get through this stuff and it can bring you closer than you've ever been. 28:43.652 --> 28:49.975 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you don't know already, because this is your first podcast you're listening to, but we have each a has a men's group. 28:50.415 --> 28:55.218 [SPEAKER_00]: We have a coaching program where each and I see couples together globally. 28:55.278 --> 28:59.140 [SPEAKER_00]: We have an in-person counseling center in Tucson, Arizona where we have 28:59.680 --> 29:03.301 [SPEAKER_00]: 13 therapists who are all trained in our relationship renovation model. 29:03.721 --> 29:13.825 [SPEAKER_00]: We have our podcasts in our Patreon community where you can get support and we have lives once or twice a month and we also have our relationship renovation at home manual. 29:13.845 --> 29:27.750 [SPEAKER_00]: You can get on Amazon for 24.99 and again build curiosity, build skills so that when you do go through life transitions and there are many you feel more equipped instead of disempowered or powerless. 29:27.970 --> 29:36.895 [SPEAKER_02]: And if you enjoyed this podcast and you think that it's something that you or your partner or a friend might enjoy, please share it. 29:36.935 --> 29:39.237 [SPEAKER_02]: We always appreciate you giving us a rating. 29:39.297 --> 29:40.537 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, we love our reviews. 29:40.657 --> 29:44.059 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, reviews, comments, we respond to all of them. 29:44.079 --> 29:48.802 [SPEAKER_02]: You can also just always like send us an email at podcasts, at relationship renovation. 29:48.842 --> 29:50.143 [SPEAKER_02]: We love to get those as well. 29:50.403 --> 29:53.406 [SPEAKER_00]: So again, my closing. 29:53.506 --> 29:54.867 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for listening. 29:54.887 --> 29:56.268 [SPEAKER_00]: As always, take care of yourself. 29:56.348 --> 29:57.489 [SPEAKER_00]: Take care of each other, bye-bye. 29:57.749 --> 29:58.070 [SPEAKER_00]: Bye-bye.