[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Craigslist Parameter podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey guys, talking about women and ministry today.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why are we doing that?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's very controversial topic everywhere for those of you who are watching if you see me growing my neck.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been in the little bit of pain this week, but I'm happy to be here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad we're talking about this important topic.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for getting through it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, there's ditches on both sides.
[SPEAKER_00]: We want to be on a biblical road.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't have to agree perfectly on this, but we even went back to scripture once again.
[SPEAKER_00]: you know men are to be preaching in the church, men are to be leading an official, you know, pastor roles and elder roles in the church.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what we believe scripture says, but there can be ditches, even on the conservative side, where it's like, whoa!
[SPEAKER_00]: women shouldn't even be doing podcasts obviously we don't believe that i'm asking the and she to be on the podcast for the past or she's like oh i want to be in my home oh she's in there uh or they shouldn't be authors or they you know men shouldn't be learning from women at conferences i don't we don't believe any of that women
[SPEAKER_00]: And then both extremely talented, both equal and value, but with different roles and the family different roles in the church.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we look at the Bible on that.
[SPEAKER_00]: We talk about these things.
[SPEAKER_00]: So buckle your seatbell.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's think it's an educational episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's important because you don't want confusion amongst your kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: You want to lie in it as your kids lost from your family.
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, picking churches to go and doing things like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: We even talk about the importance of translation of the Bible.
[SPEAKER_00]: What translation are you using?
[SPEAKER_00]: What is your past you're using?
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's really important too.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really important because you want to have unity in your family.
[SPEAKER_01]: We talk a little bit about that and what is important to teach your children so that you guys have more unity later on in life when they start getting married and launching from your home.
[SPEAKER_01]: But also the other ditch that's on the other side of the road misinterprets parts of scripture as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: So on one side you have the extreme conservative side of things that Isaac already mentioned on the other side.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have female pastors and preachers and and you have this huge division that's happening in the greater body of Christ both sides well Lord.
[SPEAKER_01]: But holy willing, both sides claim Jesus Christ is their eternal Savior in that green doctorinal tenence of faith.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when it comes to solus scripture and that this is the sufficient word of God and we're not going to add to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not going to have anything extra biblical.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not going to...
[SPEAKER_01]: take things out of it and use weird translations.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a really big deal and that's where some of the different names beliefs that are on both sides of the digital road that's where it comes from is extra biblical and and also how people feel and their experiences.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes lead them down a road of making idols out of their belief and their conviction and their experience and the feeling that they have of being used by God.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we're going to dive into this really important topic that truly has become a viral conversation everywhere today.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, wherever you listen, give it a five-star reviews.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's how to raise your hand.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm part of the Tim Nile Legacy's movement.
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, no, it's our CreatedParenthood.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: The full ministry of B.Cray just ministry.org.
[SPEAKER_00]: And have you got the new book?
[SPEAKER_00]: Greatest parenting yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: Get it on Amazon.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is so worth it over a hundred five-star reviews overall.
[SPEAKER_00]: and people are just raven about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: We poured a hearts into it, and the Lord really helped us to write the 31 things that are important for marriages and parents to be doing in their homes with their children in these unprecedented times, backed by big biblical truth.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, hey, enjoy the episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that was a big topic today.
[SPEAKER_00]: Women in ministry, we felt it was important to talk about it on the Great Sparety podcast because what are you teaching your children?
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you want family alignment on biblical truth?
[SPEAKER_00]: the end.
[SPEAKER_00]: Church and all these things when you're older is pretty important.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting how many different topics are potentially things that we could say this is important to talk to your kids about and to explain to them why you believe what you believe from a biblical perspective because that's where we find unity when you have a foundation of Christ, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: You're gonna have the foundation of the Word.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as your kids get older, and they start married.
[SPEAKER_01]: Another people, like obviously you're not necessarily going to have the choice of who they married.
[SPEAKER_01]: They need to make that choice, although you want them to come to you for wisdom.
[SPEAKER_01]: But in that, realizing that people come from different homes with different theological backgrounds.
[SPEAKER_01]: right and so that can create division in the future.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I feel like today more than ever we're seeing just modern day Christianity.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's just so many topics that are dividing people more and more and I would say this topic of women and their roles within the church.
[SPEAKER_01]: has been a hot button topic especially this last month.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have the Southern Baptist Convention El Mola, you know, made proposed that they write it into the bylaws, I believe, that women cannot be preachers cannot hold the office of pastor.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that created a lot of stirring up of the conversation across denominational lines.
[SPEAKER_01]: We see this kind of everywhere right now in social
[SPEAKER_01]: And while I think that this is a topic that the enemy wants to divide people on in our heart, I just want you to know, you know, we're doing what everyone else, or I think that all of the intentions of everyone is to obey God's word, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I hear that from people on the molar side of things, I hear that also from other people as well, however,
[SPEAKER_01]: There's definite challenges when it comes to interpreting Scripture.
[SPEAKER_01]: We will talk a little bit about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's a sensitive topic today.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's sensitive.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's also sensitive based on your experiences in life.
[SPEAKER_00]: I imagine, especially for women, probably, there's a lot of women listening about some interesting, challenging experiences maybe in this area and I know Angie of your own personal stories will get into, but really this can be ditches and where we are saying people are in a ditch, you might be listening and going, wait, you're
[SPEAKER_00]: That's where I'm siding and you're calling me in a ditch.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, this is where we believe what scripture says.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we're always going to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're always going to go back to the Bible, look at what scripture says.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not what our preferences are as it can answer.
[SPEAKER_00]: You haven't changed their perspective on this because we started this decades ago.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's in continuing to have always kind of been the same on this, been part of churches, the same viewpoint on this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And
[SPEAKER_01]: and it's interesting I would say to the today more than ever when you're looking at what churches to go to we found this when we moved here right and even when we when we were when we moved from one place in Oregon to another place in Oregon you go to a church website and you look for their statement of faith first and foremost before you even bother going to visit a church otherwise it could be a waste of time right
[SPEAKER_01]: But today, like, I feel like in the last five years, especially, I go, I've gone to a church website, and I'm like, there's not even a Bible verse listed under any of these statements of faith of what they believe.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or it's such a general statement of faith.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like two sentences for what they believe on the Holy Spirit are, one sentence about Jesus, and one sentence, it's very weird to me, that people could be, and these are mega churches.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I literally think to myself there, there's a need for a depth for pastors.
[SPEAKER_01]: And honestly, the people who are holding office of a church, you should have a strong statement of faith that where there is no wiggle room on what you believe is what you believe.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because otherwise, you're just gonna attract a whole lot of different kinds of people.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there's potentially division and conflict within that body, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: we're up to be one mind and well there's some areas we can disagree and be of one mind on the essentials in church I mean it gets harder and harder if you're not standing for something if you're not standing for strong biblical truth and a strong biblical position so we always well and sometimes you know some of you we lose you because you're like well we think differently I hope that's not the case I hope we can disagree on some things and still you know learn from each other and so forth
[SPEAKER_01]: There is a temptation that we have as humans to build our opinions and become super strong in our convictions, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you have what you call Pendulum Swingers that will sometimes be over in this camp over here and then they Pendulum Swing and they go over to the other ditch over here, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And they miss biblical truth, which is usually somewhere found in the middle.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so for us, we're always driving for that biblical road because the path is narrow.
[SPEAKER_01]: the path is narrow and and many are trying to get to that narrow path but a lot of times we justify the things that we believe based upon our feelings our past experiences or just you know things don't feel right have you ever heard that term or
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, one of the things that I personally believe can be dangerous is when people say, well, but God told me, God told me I'm supposed to be a pastor or God told me I'm supposed to preach this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm just obeying him, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, well, but did God tell you to preach
[SPEAKER_01]: That did God tell you how did you hear that right and so I think that I mean, that's a whole Another topic, but my point is is that when we get into feelings when we get into our Experiences and we start making decisions on those alone Versus understanding if it is from God if it is from God, it's from the Holy Spirit right, but the Holy Spirit never contradicts the word of God because it's one
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's important to have good hermeneutics and that's interpretation of the Bible going back to what the original author's intent was of writing that.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's really important, God's intent because it was breathed out by the Lord.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so looking at that, so, and then also exagetical process, which is actually looking at each word and looking at the Greek and making sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: you're really understanding what that word means.
[SPEAKER_00]: And especially on a topic like this, women in ministry, it's important to do that every time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she goes back to the word every time I go back to the word or not deviating from this perspective because we're looking at the Bible We're saying, wow, this is really clearly what it says.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you know what was really interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll get into this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is your Bible translation that you use Could be leading or that your church uses could be leading you down a different path minor little changes
[SPEAKER_00]: can make a big difference.
[SPEAKER_00]: We might as well go into that right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to talk about that?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, yeah, it is interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: We were looking actually it's funny because that root of Bible church, you're the pastor of root of Bible church, and you've been preaching through first Timothy for the past few months, actually.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in April, I believe the end of April, you preached on first Timothy, the qualifications of overseers and deacons.
[SPEAKER_01]: You also preached on this specific scripture about a woman learning with quietness with all submissiveness All these different things that we're gonna get into that are at the in the verses 8 through 15 in chapter 2 of verse 10 of E. And so we were looking at these different scriptures and then we always like to look at Different translations of things, but we usually stick to not usually we do stick to ESV always as well as New King James and then King James
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what's interesting about that though is that we realize that all three of those translations have one big thing in common.
[SPEAKER_01]: What is that?
[SPEAKER_00]: They are formal equivalents in their translation, meaning that it is a word for word translation.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going back to the original manuscripts and taking it word for word from Greek or Hebrew or into English exactly how it was.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's another form called functional equivalents, and that's the NIV, we were just looking at the NIV, which is a super popular translation, especially in the 90s.
[SPEAKER_00]: Most pastors are recommending that ESF wasn't around then, I don't believe.
[SPEAKER_00]: ESF went back to the original transcripts, just like King James version, but some say even more accurately because there was a bigger more of the transcripts I've been found when the ESF came out.
[SPEAKER_00]: So went back to all a bigger base and it grabbed exactly what for word.
[SPEAKER_00]: even if in English, you could have made it sound better, adjusting things a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's where the NIV did that functional.
[SPEAKER_00]: Equalments making it more functional for the English language, smoothed over some Greek translation.
[SPEAKER_01]: In New Testament, is that made it easier for people to read in the English language?
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's okay, but it slightly changes some things and I almost think it's not okay, actually.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now that I look at,
[SPEAKER_00]: Qualifications for Deacons, for example.
[SPEAKER_00]: Whoa.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was a big difference.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, let's just go there for a second.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you have your Bible, you could go to first Timothy chapter three.
[SPEAKER_01]: What is interesting is that the first verse through seven.
[SPEAKER_01]: The first seven verses are about qualifications of overseers.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in an NIV translation, we did a little bit of research on this.
[SPEAKER_01]: That section on Deakin's is split up into three sections.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not one section like it is in the new King James King James and an ESB.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all one section, one paragraph.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they change some of the words.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for example, verse 11, it says that in the ESV, it says their wives, likewise, must be dignified, not slanders, but sober-minded faithful and all things.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is indicating that the wives, also of the decans that are qualified, the wives are responsible for also walking with the Lord and being dignified.
[SPEAKER_01]: In the NIV, it separates that section and then it says the women,
[SPEAKER_01]: Need to be dignified and it continues on and so it makes it it eludes to this thought that maybe when in can be deacons But in the King James the new King James and in the ESV They're actually all together and it's talking about the wives of the deacons basically just qualifying their husbands if they're not dignified also
[SPEAKER_00]: It just leaves a little more room for women being deacons when if you do a, you know, a translation that goes straight word for word.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't leave room for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: The original intent of what the Bible says there is there's not the office of being a deacon is not for women.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not our preference.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not what we're doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not bringing our preferences into this.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're looking back and with scripture says.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the word deacon also, it's kind of interesting, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: I said, won't you just share that since we're sharing about deacon?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, deacon, the word is diaconos, and it means servant, and it's the same word for male or female.
[SPEAKER_00]: The word decanas I don't find in the Bible actually.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know Phoebe is mentioned to be I have it right here.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's mentioned to be a decand.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not in context of a church in the way it's talking about it But she was an incredible by the way the the Bible speaks to women incredible ways so many times
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm now preaching sermons, you know again, and it's so fun because almost every time, it's like favorable towards women, something awesome about women, talking about some awesome lady in the Bible, and it just all throughout Scripture.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Christianity really brought value in freedom to women, actually.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you look at the history of it, women were largely oppressed prior to Christianity.
[SPEAKER_00]: Look at the crucifixion, who is there with Jesus?
[SPEAKER_00]: Women, the men?
[SPEAKER_00]: largely weren't there mostly was John and Mary and Mary and And he even says and one of the gospels says and there's people far away looking I think you know there's reason for the disciples to be fearful obviously in that setting But you know the women were the ones who you know the resurrection who were there
[SPEAKER_01]: I also were very instrumental in serving the disciples and there was a lot of lessons about their life and blasherist as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I think we're getting to is that it's not, I don't think the Bible is being oppressive to women because women aren't allowed to teach in the church service.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that there's equal value,
[SPEAKER_00]: But with different roles.
[SPEAKER_00]: We see that in household and we see direction for that in the church Yeah, and we can we can bend the Bible to our preferences Or we can bend our lives to the Bible and bend our church to the Bible That's what we're supposed to do
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that when people here, it's just it's interesting, you know, when new people come to church and they a lot of times it's always when I get this question it always comes from women and so you can tell that the women are like they've either had passed her in previous churches or they have a really strong opinion and they want to exercise their gift.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's about them doing what they want when they come up and they go, what do you believe about women preachers?
[SPEAKER_01]: right and sometimes it can be because they're like extreme on the other side where they're like scared of going off very often being in an unbiblical church in a sense, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so again, I think that and it's a valid question.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's important that every pastor knows what he believes about this for us.
[SPEAKER_01]: We just want to obey the Bible.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when we read through first Timothy,
[SPEAKER_01]: Chapter 1, 2 and 3, what we see is Paul writing a letter to Timothy, who is sent out to conduct direction in
[SPEAKER_01]: appointing elders and deacons in all of the churches, and he's teaching them how there's to act in the church of God, essentially, which is what we see if you were to actually just go to chapter 3 verse 14, I just saw this.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is after he gives the qualifications of elders and deacons.
[SPEAKER_01]: It says, I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these things to you so that if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the
[SPEAKER_01]: a pillar and a buttress of the truth.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so he's, I mean, I feel like that kind of sums up the whole purpose of first Timothy.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a difference between descriptive scriptures and prescriptive scriptures.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's another part of Hermannudix.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you want to...
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think at first the second Timothy is some of the most prescriptive scripture you get and prescriptive simply means this is what we say This is what you do Descriptive is this is an example a word picture of something to bring to bring meaning to your life But you may not do exactly what the word picture says
[SPEAKER_01]: Or you may not experience the exact same thing that narrative, that person experienced in their life.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because there's a lot of testimonies of different people's accounts in their life.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you may not have those same accounts happening in your life, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I could even say like the protocol son.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that's a very powerful message for all of us.
[SPEAKER_01]: there are things that we can learn about that in regards to being a parent, but also being a child.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you may not experience that same narrative in your own personal life.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you know anything, but that doesn't mean that you can't still learn from it, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so there's some prescript, there's some descriptive, but then when you get to books like first Timothy that are prescriptive because it's about
[SPEAKER_01]: the buttress of truth.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's about God's church being blemished free and him setting up an order.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's setting up organization so that there is headship.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is safety.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is protection of his church.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it goes in alignment with the entire narrative throughout scripture of how households are run and how the man is supposed to be the head of the church and how can, how can a man be ahead of a
[SPEAKER_01]: Is he just like switch and then all of a sudden she's like, okay, I'm not, I was a pastor at church.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's a lack of headship.
[SPEAKER_00]: God did create headship.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's just look back since you're on that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Genesis 127.
[SPEAKER_00]: So God created man in his own image and the image of God.
[SPEAKER_00]: He created him mail and female.
[SPEAKER_00]: He created them.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's that there's an equal value both made in the image of God.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so cool, right, Genesis But before you go into that next scripture, I just want to point out though that one of the things that I was reminded of when we started preparing this Is that even though yes, man and woman is made in God's image God used Adam's rib to form Eve
[SPEAKER_01]: So God made us in His image, but that's because He made Adam in His image and then He took His rib and He made us, the woman.
[SPEAKER_01]: And He made us from His rib to be a helper for the man, not the other way around.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean that there's an inequality that we have different purposes, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And you see that actually played out in Genesis.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just gotta go do it really quick in the fall.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is really important when you look at the actual curse, which the reason why I'm bringing this up is because it comes up in 1st Timothy chapter 2.
[SPEAKER_01]: We know that the reason why God has
[SPEAKER_01]: given us the boundaries that he's given us as far as who can be in leadership within a church is based upon this headship model and that the church represents the bread of Christ.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's very important that we are obeying God's word.
[SPEAKER_01]: But in here in chapter 2, let's see here says, in verse 2.
[SPEAKER_01]: 12 and 13 it says for Adam was formed first then Eve and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and then became a transgressor.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm I'm pause there for a second, flip to Genesis chapter three when we look at when the transgression of sin happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: What was the curse that was given to the woman?
[SPEAKER_01]: What was the curse that was given to the man?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, the man is going to twirl all the days of his life and thorns and thussels and needles, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: The woman it says that I will surely multiply your pain and child bearing in pain, you shall bring forth children.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it says, your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so another translation says your desire shall be for your husband, doesn't say contrary, but I like that it says contrary, meaning, and it's not meaning that sexual desire.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what that, that's what that, that's, I know, would not be, the guys would probably be like, yes, her desire is for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it actually says your desire will shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Meaning you will want as a woman.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is just in you being a daughter of Eve.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is our temptation to sin.
[SPEAKER_01]: Our human nature is that we want to step in and take control.
[SPEAKER_01]: we want to be the leader.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's just how it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like it's hard to follow sometimes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that part of it is because what you see in this whole, the fall, is you see Adam being passive.
[SPEAKER_01]: You talk about this all the time regarding husbands being passive, not leading their families.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a whole resolute man podcast, a whole resolute man ministry.
[SPEAKER_01]: We talked about this in the new book.
[SPEAKER_01]: Great spare team that came out.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have a whole chapter on biblical gender roles.
[SPEAKER_01]: You guys have to go through the book.
[SPEAKER_01]: because there's some awesome date night questions that will help you guys to navigate like what, how do you work as a team while having different gender roles because you're different genders.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, but in the fall, we see out of mean passive.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's hard for a woman who's not passive, that's not our nature to be passive, to follow something where their nature is passive, but here's the whole point is that we're not to be actually acting in our nature where to be
[SPEAKER_00]: Amen, amen, men have to reject that passivity that we naturally have, and a lot of this is in spiritual things.
[SPEAKER_00]: Women naturally, incredible, prayer, worshipful, easy to communicate and share words.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I would say many women could give incredible sermons in a church and be capable of doing that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't mean they should do that, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: We should do what the Bible is telling us to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: and trust that the most fruit happens when we obey his word exactly what it says, and do it that way.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think wherever things are done, the biblical way, it yields the most fruit, even if we didn't understand why we're doing it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, we can understand it because we can read little Bible, but sometimes our own hurts, our own experiences, our own feelings, and desires can you serve our understanding of why something would be the way it so
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's the guy book, essentially, for everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: But again, going back to this understanding that Paul is literally telling Timothy, this is what you look for in qualifications of Elder, a leader of Shepard of Pastor.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he goes back to headship in regards to that scripture.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's,
[SPEAKER_01]: He's not alluding to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's literally teaching from Genesis.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's reminding Timothy listen this is for all people I desire then that in every place.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's verse 8 of chapter 2 before he goes into who can sit before he talks about women being quiet before anything He'll in verse 8 it says I desire then that in every place not in some churches not not in this one church in every place That's what the Bible says
[SPEAKER_00]: all the churches.
[SPEAKER_01]: In every place, the men should pray lifting holy hands without anger and quarreling.
[SPEAKER_01]: Likewise, also that the women should adorn themselves and respectful a peril, with modesting self-control.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not with braided her and golden pearls.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's literally talking about the heart.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's saying, listen, are you trying to dress for God?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you trying to dress to get attention the wrong kind of attention from men or from other people?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's what it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a matter of the heart.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think he's got his gun ordered.
[SPEAKER_00]: He has things set up a certain way.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's his church, not our church.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're part of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: We are the church.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, when we gather, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: And but he has a certain order that he wants.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's describing it to us.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's fruit from that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when it gets out of order, it throws all kinds of things off, maybe we don't even realize it throws people's homes off probably.
[SPEAKER_00]: and things like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so men are to lead.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's a servant leader.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a directional leader.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a visionary leader.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a spiritual leader.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's many aspects of that leader.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's masculinity.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a good thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a godly thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's needed.
[SPEAKER_00]: And femininity is god thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's needed.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean both are needed ideally in a home.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some of your single parents and you're doing both.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's hard.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you can do it when there is a distinction, though, too, because we were talking about this before, where there are more biblical way to do healthcare that's more effective than insurance and saves you money.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'd even hit me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, when we prayed to God, Jesus told us how to pray.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, our Father, who aren't heaven.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not our Mother, who aren't heaven.
[SPEAKER_01]: So while women are made in God's image, we don't pray to God as if He was a woman.
[SPEAKER_01]: We pray to God in the masculine form.
[SPEAKER_01]: because that's what's most respectful and honoring to him and that's how Jesus literally commands us to pray in the gospel.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, and all throughout Scripture, God is only masculine.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: However, again, going back to the issue of translations, there are translations out there that fudge on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: and so if you're going to a church where the pastor is reading from a translation that is not going to hold to the inherent biblical truth and have formal linguistics and the translation process, the formal equivalence, that's going to change what your sermons are, which changes that it doesn't just change the translation, but it changes the doctrine of the church because it's based upon the word they're reading, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's a really big deal.
[SPEAKER_00]: it is, it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, these scriptures are good.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is kind of a headship which is, you know, so we have Ephesians 522 through 23 wives submit to your own husbands as to the Lord, for the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church.
[SPEAKER_00]: His body and his himself, it's Savior.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then Ephesians 533, let each of one of you love his wife as himself.
[SPEAKER_00]: let the wife see that she respects her husband.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's the kind of leadership.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's coming from a point of love and that leaders of a church have become from the same place, but they're supposed to be meant.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what God.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, I mean, you're seeing here as I desire that in every place, the men should pray lifting holy hands without anger and quarreling, and then just goes on.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then verse 11 is the hard one.
[SPEAKER_01]: It says, let women learn quietly with all submissiveness.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do not permit a woman to teach her to exercise authority over a man, rather she is to remain quiet.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it goes into for Adam was formed first, then Eve, blah, blah, blah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that gives, that's a good point, though.
[SPEAKER_00]: It gives, it gives a Genesis reference right there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Which means it's not just for that time for the Corinthians, because they're having issues in that particular church.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: The reason goes back to Genesis.
[SPEAKER_01]: it goes back to headship and it goes back to God having a blemish free church and again I think that this is it's about translation, it's about exegesis, it's about humility, can I just say humility like I know that for myself this could be a sensitive topic because I know that over the years
[SPEAKER_01]: especially in in some circles with certain friendships.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know that God has given me the gift of discernment, and there are times where I've literally asked, could please just take it away from me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't like seeing the pride frothing from a brother or a sister, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, or there's certain things where I feel like there's a conversation that's going on, but I know that they are leaning towards the ditch of women should not even speak.
[SPEAKER_01]: and conversations, and literally feeling the power of the Holy Spirit over me, I'll get the chills, and I scripture starts coming to my mind that is literally an argument against what that person that may be on a sane, and will be like on a double date or something, and I'm like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Like inside I just want to explode but I have to bridle my tongue and I pray and I ask God to give me the right words to say at the right time and I have used both self-control as well as speaking with exhortation because I have the gift of that exhortation but here's the deal it is humbling and it's hard for a prideful man to receive that from another woman and a lot of times what you see in that ditch let's just talk about the two dishes again for a second because on one side you have
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll let's just call them the ultra extreme conservative side where not only do they believe that women should not be pastors and preachers because I would say we believe that right and we we're trying to be on the biblical road.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that we agree with.
[SPEAKER_01]: But their extreme is like women should not speak to a man.
[SPEAKER_01]: Women should not write books Women should not be on podcast at all women should not be doing this or that they should be teaching anything Well, then I go to Titus, which is literally right after second Timothy
[SPEAKER_01]: And what does Titus two say about teaching sound doctrine?
[SPEAKER_01]: It says, but as for you, teach what it sounds with the chords with sound doctrine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Older men are to be sober-minded, dignified, self-controlled, sound-in-faith and love-in-stet-fessness.
[SPEAKER_01]: Older women, likewise, are to be reverent and behavior not slanders or slaves to much-wine.
[SPEAKER_01]: They are to teach what is good and so train the young women to love their husbands and children to be self-controlled.
[SPEAKER_01]: pure, working at home, kind, submissive to the on husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled, some translations say blasphemed, and then it says likewise urge the younger men to be self-controlled, and it just continues on and on, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like, okay, but there was a whole lot of topics that were listed there that women should be teaching on.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I was to do a teaching on purity, like if I just went to pure, I
[SPEAKER_01]: I would have to be pulling from the Old Testament, the New Testament, I would spend hours creating a Bible say this is why I do weekly when I teach and devoted in our church and I spend about six to eight hours preparing one hour teaching on a specific topic that has to do with purity, being pure, it's not just sexually pure.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, are you pure in the way you view your sister in Christ?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you pure in the way you treat your husband?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you pure in the way that you are teet living what you teach?
[SPEAKER_01]: Those are all totally separate teachings that could each be an hour.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm literally just brushing the tip of the iceberg on the topic of purity, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Kindness is by itself.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's another one.
[SPEAKER_01]: I could go through each of them and there's obviously God is called and it's his design that the older women would be teaching in the church to the younger women.
[SPEAKER_01]: not the younger women to the older women, which is what you see.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, but you still have, in that example, you still have women teaching women, men teaching men.
[SPEAKER_00]: And everyone.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: But we're talking about the church right there.
[SPEAKER_00]: So now we obviously don't believe women shouldn't author or podcast and Angie's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am like Angie.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's do a show.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm asking her.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's, you know, submitting to my leadership essentially just being here today.
[SPEAKER_00]: So because her heart is in her home, she wants to be in her home, educating her kids, doing all the things and she does.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I pull her away carefully.
[SPEAKER_00]: to do like this because it's edifying.
[SPEAKER_00]: Could you imagine what would happen if there was no females teaching on podcasts, no female authors, no females at any conferences or events?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that would be a sterilized society, that would be a low-
[SPEAKER_00]: Educated society in a lot of areas.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's just look at this from a logical perspective for a second.
[SPEAKER_01]: If most men are going to actually be like men, the men that God calls them to be right, it says, it's worse for an unbeliever than for a man not to provide for his family.
[SPEAKER_01]: So most men provide for their families.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that means that they work during the day, which means that most women are with their children during the day, at least, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of women also work.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm working right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, it for me it's ministry.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am obeying my husband.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do love this and I'm thankful for this time But I for sure like I there are days.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll be honest where I so go go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, we need a what are we gonna do for a podcast and I mean if you're transparent and you had to show the Everybody on YouTube what my physical responses sometimes I'm like what I go Yeah
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not always like super I'm like, I just I need to do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I need to do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to do this with the kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: I put family first.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's where my heart is in my home and but I obey my husband and I come out here and I do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And obviously the fact that you're even listening to today's podcast is proof that you must agree that women should be able to teach on a podcast otherwise you should just shut this off right now and never listen again, but
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that for myself as a woman who's with the children, the topic of parenting alone like women, I'm just going to say it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that women are more of experts on children than men are.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because we spend more hours with our children.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're around them.
[SPEAKER_01]: We spend more time training them.
[SPEAKER_01]: We know the ins and outs of what they're not doing well at.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where they're insecure all the different things that we deal with as women and we need to be Ministered to to keep on keeping going right to not grow weary and doing good and I'll be honest with you It's very rare when I hear a man speak on a topic regarding parenting where I go Oh, that was so good.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was just what I needed.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was so relatable
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I love you, but like, usually that response is elicited from me listening to another woman who has walked in my shoes, who was a season ahead of me, and she's willing to pour out the truth of what scripture says and how it relates to the heart thing she walked through in motherhood.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, make sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that, I mean, it makes sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: A man can't walk through motherhood.
[SPEAKER_01]: He can only walk through fatherhood.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I think what we're talking about is God's church.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's special, it's important, it's the bride of Christ.
[SPEAKER_00]: He has a order for it.
[SPEAKER_00]: When we're not in the church, men should be able to learn from women.
[SPEAKER_00]: Women should be able to learn from men.
[SPEAKER_00]: There should be comfortability and talking amongst each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it gets a little strange and it lacks some fruit when it gets to that point where only men talk to men, only women talk to women.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it's a bad fruit actually right Jesus says that a tree can only bear good or bad fruit not both at the same time Yeah, and so in my mind that's a big red flag but at the same time I would say another red flag would be the other extreme end of the ditch where you have
[SPEAKER_01]: the females running the church, pastoring the church, men who are weak.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that I will be honest in most of those situations what I have seen personally, seen is that in those marriages, the men are not actually leading in their homes either.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so then the children struggle.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, when we talked about biblical gender roles, even in the courageous parenting book, but also in the courageous marriage series, which is an RB courageous app.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the things that we have been able to identify is that a lot of times the boys that grow up to be men that struggle so much with rising up and being leaders are the ones who are primarily, I'm just gonna say it, warped by very strong personalities of women.
[SPEAKER_01]: that did everything for them, didn't trust them, talk down to them, or harsh with them.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a problem, and you see that in men's ministry a lot of times, the men who are struggling to stand up and lead their wives.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's because they were raised by women that were really harsh with them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or didn't, you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: Not always.
[SPEAKER_00]: or a lack of a strong male presence that was leading.
[SPEAKER_01]: But imagine you can, you and I both are pretty strong in personality, but there are times when, and we both have the gift of, of teaching, but there, I know where my, where God has placed my boundaries.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so for me, it's a freedom,
[SPEAKER_01]: to be able to be a part of the body of Christ and know what he's called me to in the season that I'm in right now and obey my husband and I try to help my husband.
[SPEAKER_01]: My husband is a pastor so I help him with that ministry wherever he wants me to help him.
[SPEAKER_01]: But my heart is not to Lord over what the agenda of the culture.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's trying to drive the culture of the church.
[SPEAKER_01]: He has a bigger picture of like what's going on in marriages, what's going on in all the things.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we work as a team for sure, but I have boundaries that I know are my boundaries.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I operate good knowing them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that that's a healthy part, a conversation that husbands and wives need to have.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, a lot of the argument is looking at what scripture says about Chloe, for example, first Corinthians 1-11 says, for it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that they are quarreling.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so there's obviously a church that Chloe's a part of that, you know, people are saying, wow, that she must be a leader there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or, you know, there's a The New York or Priscilla.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the Churches of Asia and send you greetings at Quila and Priscilla Together with the Church in their house send you hearty greetings in the Lord First Corinthians 1619.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so there's a Mary couple, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you what I think people forget is these are house churches.
[SPEAKER_00]: These are a whole bunch of house churches.
[SPEAKER_00]: The church is growing.
[SPEAKER_00]: There aren't church buildings.
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, I don't think it was until 250 years later that building started coming about in at that.
[SPEAKER_00]: They were very small as a history shows.
[SPEAKER_01]: And weren't they in danger?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they were running for their, for their life in some situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Depends where in the situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, these are house churches, and so really a lot of times the Bible talks about a church is the church meaning like if we are running a home church back then it would be the church meaning an Angie's house and why would they do that because because God is so cares about men and women equally
[SPEAKER_00]: that it gives credit where credit is due, and it doesn't mean that Angie is running a church in her house.
[SPEAKER_00]: We used to run a church in her house.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was the pastor of the church, but largely she deserves credit because she's doing the hospitality.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's setting up.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's in charge of the home in terms of how beautiful it is, and in the food and the atmosphere and all of these things.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is her
[SPEAKER_00]: domain.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that the Bible gives so much credit to women for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it doesn't mean Chloe was running a church.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was involved.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was respected.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was admired probably because she was doing working for the Lord in that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting to, um, I wrote an ebook on biblical hospitality, which you can find on our website at bcragis ministry.org and the shop.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's actually a deeper dive look into all of the places in scripture where it talks about
[SPEAKER_01]: who were hosting house churches in their homes, or were practicing hospitality in their homes.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's also a look at Mary and Martha also because they were practicing hospitality as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: And realizing that God was using them, that was their main ministry, was their home.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that there's so much power when we realize that our homes are an embassy.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's something that I'm in class.
[SPEAKER_01]: incredibly passionate about.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that when you get distracted from the domain that God has given you and you start having other distractions outside of that and other jurisdictions, then what happens, the domain that you're supposed to be in charge of, you don't have the bandwidth to do both.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll be honest, I felt stretched, even though I'm not the pastor of our church, you are I'm your helper, and so all the extra little things that we've done over the last year and half with the church, it pulls me away from my home.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't be in two places at one time, so I've been over there cleaning the bathroom or whatever it is, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Fixing the shed up, reorganizing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not here taking care of my domain, my home, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so imagine if you are how much more the responsibility is if you are pastoring that house and the household of God, which is a really important thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm still kind of learning that balance of like trying to keep my first jurisdiction, my first jurisdiction, but also I love serving beside my husband.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to help him and also inviting other people to be a part of that too because it's God's church and they're a part of his church.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know we talked about Phoebe a little bit, but I just want to get this really succinct, okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: So, because these are the arguments for women leading in the church, okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: Phoebe was amazing, she was respected.
[SPEAKER_00]: This scripture Roman 1612 is at the very beginning of Paul recognizing tons of men and women.
[SPEAKER_00]: for all the different things they're doing in the helpfulness in the church and so forth and more.
[SPEAKER_00]: I commend to you, our sister Phoebe, so he's talking to a group.
[SPEAKER_00]: I commend to you, our sister Phoebe, a servant of church of centrey that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints and help her in whatever she may need from you.
[SPEAKER_00]: For she has been a patron of many,
[SPEAKER_00]: and of myself, as well, Patron in the Greek means Benna.
[SPEAKER_00]: Patron, thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: It means Benna Factor, which she was a woman of means.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if she owned a business or how she got her means, but she had resources.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she was sharing those resources to help the church grow and expand.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she probably had other things, says there's belief that it looks like in scripture, she carried one of the pistols to another place.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then like some people are saying, well, she likely read that to the church, she was likely up front preaching to the church.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not what Scripture says.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not what aligns with the rest of Scripture that women should be silent in the churches.
[SPEAKER_00]: If we're going to have a good look at biblical truth, we can't just take one piece and take it out of the whole Bible.
[SPEAKER_00]: and start adding on to things like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Deaconable.
[SPEAKER_01]: Extra biblical, I think there's a big difference that people should teach their children too, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: There's biblical, there's anti-biblical, which is like totally against what God's word says, and then there's extra biblical, which is honestly, I describe it to my kids as saying, it's like exaggerated.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's exaggerated, speculation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now some people say, it will serve it right there as it means deacon.
[SPEAKER_00]: I commend to you, our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church, servant actually means deacon.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, from the word daconos, daconos, I'm not sure how to say that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so, but that's really cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that simply means servant, but it doesn't mean she's in the...
[SPEAKER_00]: the position of decant, the church position.
[SPEAKER_00]: When you look, let's look at it.
[SPEAKER_00]: First to me, the 311 through 12.
[SPEAKER_00]: Their wives likely must be dignified.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is talking to the qualifications of decant.
[SPEAKER_00]: How can a woman
[SPEAKER_01]: have a wife.
[SPEAKER_00]: Have a wife that would not fall in line with biblical truth.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the very next verse, which by the way is separated in some translations, it says.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful and all things let deacons each be the husbands of one wife, managing their children and their own households.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: So now, if someone's a deacon, like we're considering elders and deacons right now, we're certainly looking at the women too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, is not to be in the office, but when they're married, that wife plays a key role, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: She's a servant, her husband's servant.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's serving home.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no official position or duty for her and the church necessarily.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if someone's an elder or deacon, the wives are going to be doing things too and being helping.
[SPEAKER_00]: and so that's really important.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's a huge stretch, some of these things.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when it's a stretch, you have to ask yourself, are people desiring something, thinking that fairness looks a certain way and something is unfair?
[SPEAKER_00]: So then they're taking this one little scripture to doesn't say what they're saying and they stretch it to mean something, to validate what they want.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we have to be really careful of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I would make sure you're in churches that are using a good Bible translation.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're in a church that is sticking to biblical truth and not stretching to the world standards in the way of the world, but instead sticking to biblical truth.
[SPEAKER_01]: you know it's interesting that we were talking a lot about deacons but the main thing that's been controversial has been can a woman be a pastor or a shepherd of a flock right and i again our stance is this goes back to headship but it is very clear in first Timothy three verse one says the saying is trustworthy if anyone aspires to the office of overseer he desires a noble task doesn't say he she
[SPEAKER_01]: It says, he, he desires a noble task.
[SPEAKER_01]: It says, therefore, an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded.
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, the husband of one wife, that's meaning it's a man, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And these are just, this is very clear.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not something that's confusing, but it is,
[SPEAKER_01]: In a society, in a world where the church has allowed, I'm just going to say it, feminism to seepin, and little bits and pieces, and then in some churches you see it even more, it becomes it's like a for a woman, especially a woman who's potentially either grown up at a home where
[SPEAKER_01]: there was hurt in the past in the home and so she feels like no I got to find I got to make justice on my behalf on behalf of women right like finding out that what is the real motive what is the heart behind it right and I'm not saying that this is necessarily every every church that has female pastors has that heart I'm not saying that but I am saying that we should definitely what is the heart posture is it God's word is
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't need to add to it, I don't need to change it, and I don't need to take away from it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just want to obey God, because that it really is ultimately like, do I trust God and am I gonna obey Him?
[SPEAKER_01]: Even if it goes against my flesh, cause I'm not gonna tell you.
[SPEAKER_01]: the Bible goes against my flesh kind of a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are a lot of times where you read the Bible and you're convicted and it doesn't feel so good at times where you're like, man, I'm not justified in that and I really, my flesh wanted to be angry at that person and that's injustice and I wanted to seek justice and then you read it and you're like, oh God has vengeance.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's certainly not clamping down on women overall.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the scripture says that in then times your daughters are going to be prophesying and so forth, women are able to all kinds of different things and use their gifts and it's just needs to be ordered in the church and there's other things that can be done and surely not everybody's using their gifts on church Sunday during the sermon time.
[SPEAKER_00]: right so what do we talk during the yeah during the sermon time there's usually one person talking at a time yeah yeah so two people were talking you couldn't even hear them so most people's gifts are used during the week and amongst each other and so forth and you know teaching women women are teaching women well women are allowed to sing in our church
[SPEAKER_01]: That wouldn't be like an extreme over here on the other ditch right if it's like being silent during the whole church gathering It's like then they wouldn't be singing not let alone leading worship or helping with worship They wouldn't be praying they wouldn't that like they wouldn't be doing anything right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so this is just talking about the teaching time which you separate specifically during the church service So so important that there's not confused minds among your children because if there's not clarity on these things from you
[SPEAKER_00]: then they're going to gravitate towards whatever translation they end up using when they're older because maybe you didn't even talk about that with your children or what they're like, they get married and they're going to some church and what is that church teaching and what direction and that could create some disunity even in your family you know and you really ideally want to come together and be lock an iron of one mind even in your extended family as you're growing older
[SPEAKER_00]: That's hard to happen, but wow, there's so much goodness when you teach it, when you decide for your children, and really teach them what the word says about these things and why, so that your daughters are like, I love that, and your sons are like, I love that, but they understand what good leadership looks like.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think sometimes one of the arguments I've heard from people regarding really gifted female preachers who just have the gift.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen some of the little reels that have come through where I'm like, wow, that was just said so well.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I see the skill.
[SPEAKER_01]: You said this earlier, it's not a matter of skill.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean women have like 25,000 words a day, men have 10,000 words a day,
[SPEAKER_01]: There's been a book where men's minds are like waffles, women are like spaghetti.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're all alone.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we can literally, it's not a matter of skill.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the capability of women to be able to preach and orate and it is 100% there.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why we're teachers in our home, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: and it's an awesome gift, however, what is it when you're walking in the flesh and you saw the curse and you know that God doesn't want your husband walking in his flesh which is to be more passive and it requires you to
[SPEAKER_01]: bridle your tongue actually, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So that they can have space to rise up and be who got wants them to be also.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's a matter of like when you're walking in the spirit, you do what the spirit wants, not what the flesh wants.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like that's the thing of it for me at the end of the day.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when I look at women who are so gifted, who are actually preaching, I think to myself, they have the gift of evangelism.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if they weren't passed during that church, honestly, God might even give them a bigger platform as an evangelist doing something even bigger than what they're doing in a church to be perfectly honest, it's you have no idea right, but it's not that the gift is not to be used, it's just there's an appropriate time and space for it to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: use and and pasturing is so much more than preaching.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that that one of the things that I keep thinking every time I hear people arguing about this and women's roles and church and stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think to myself Well, what about the the man that needs counseling?
[SPEAKER_01]: a woman cannot should not be counseling a man alone, that's not wise.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the argument could be, well, should a man be counseling a woman?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, we should not.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that a husband and a wife team should be counseling them together, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's like, but yeah, so I think that there's an importance of realizing that pasturing is so much more than just the preaching on Sundays.
[SPEAKER_01]: and part of it is actually encouraging other men to rise up and lead their families because that's biblical.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so is a woman gonna lead a men's meeting and say, okay, men, you all leading your, because that, a pastor's role, like a pastor needs to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I believe the strongest church, especially moving forward in the way society is changing, is gonna be men rising up and leading their families.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's always been that way, it's what the Bible says, but it's, and that takes masculine leadership.
[SPEAKER_00]: If men are supposed to lead their families, then men are supposed to be pastoring a church.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that kind of makes sense, doesn't it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because then the pastor can empower the men so they do well with their families.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because they're leading their families.
[SPEAKER_00]: It makes a lot of sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, it's God's way also, but anyway, we hope that today's podcast episode was edifying to you and encouraging this is such a sensitive topic and we just want people to be walking and God's word and alignment with their spouses that their families would be thriving and that they wouldn't be divided later on in life, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: that they would know what they believe, that they, to be actually aware, I mean first Timothy is a lot about being aware of false teachers and false doctrines, that's one of the reasons why Paul sent the letter to Timothy in the first place was to be watchful of a different doctrine that's being preached and then he clarified what was supposed to be taught and how people were supposed to operate within the church body.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's really clear, but if you don't have a good translation, you're going to be led astray.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot here that I think is a