[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Julie Kraftcheck, and I'm UASU.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the Psychology of Relationships.
[SPEAKER_02]: We like to think chemistry is something you either have or you don't, but a lot of what we call chemistry is actually behavior.
[SPEAKER_02]: The way you show up, the signals you send, and how you read the other person, all shape whether a connection builds, or quietly fades.
[SPEAKER_02]: Vanessa Van Edwards, behavioral researcher, vesseling author of cues and captivate, and founder of science of people, joins us to break down the hacks of human connection.
[SPEAKER_02]: Her work on people intelligence, challenges the idea that connections purely instinct, showing how first impressions, body language, and micro signals influence how someone experiences you within seconds.
[SPEAKER_02]: We get into what's really happening in those first few minutes when you meet someone, how to pick up on subtle cues most people miss, and why some interactions feel natural while others feel forced.
[SPEAKER_02]: even when everything checks out on paper.
[SPEAKER_02]: This conversation will make you more aware of what you're bringing into the room and how to create connection without trying so hard.
[SPEAKER_02]: Remember to subscribe to the Psychology of Relationships on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and at this episode change how you think about connection in relationships we love a rating or review.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the psychology of relationships and you're listening to an episode that just might change the way you show up in your relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: Enjoy!
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's get into this discussion with the expert herself, Vanessa Van Edwards.
[SPEAKER_00]: Goodness, I'm honored, I'm honored.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, I'm excited to be here.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so funny, like writing a book is such a solo endeavor, like I'm alone all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm researching and then the book became so successful.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then people wanted to talk to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, oh, no, what have I done?
[SPEAKER_01]: We were actually going to kick off that we love the fact that you call yourself a recovering awkward person.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, so I think that's such a funny thing to even like start with.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like as someone, I guess we'll get right into it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like as someone that doesn't have natural people skills, like how did you learn to hack human behavior as you call it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know, it's funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: I read all.
[SPEAKER_00]: Every book that was ever written about communication, I feel like I had read it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, everything from how to when friends and influence people, too.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you remember the ridiculous book, tongue-foo, oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I went like old school, like every communication book that was in library, I read it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I noticed that there was a pattern that most of the books felt like they were written by extraverts.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I love extroverts and I find them so magnetic and inspiring and I watch them across the room and I hide from them and they're just, you know, they're amazing, but if you are not an extrovert, it's very hard to learn people skills from an extrovert.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I wanted to find a people skills book by an Ambervert.
[SPEAKER_00]: by someone who likes people.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like people, but I need lots of recharge time.
[SPEAKER_00]: I need, you know, hacks and skills.
[SPEAKER_00]: I need to be able to find my spots and my people and my triggers.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that was really the whole goal was to try to write something that wasn't from a natural extrovert, but that it's still worth learning, but it just took a little bit extra energy.
[SPEAKER_02]: So like when you say hack human behavior, what is that in tail?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I love when well-meaning authors give advice like be yourself, be more authentic and I'm like that sounds great but I have no idea how to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so one thing I wished for was I wanted to try to teach or learn soft skills using hard skills methods.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wondered, okay, you know, with computer programming, you know, they hack programming.
[SPEAKER_00]: They have formulas and codes and blueprints and frameworks.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, I want those things, but for people.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when I say hack him behavior, I mean, can we try?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know humans are not computers, but can we try to look at humans as if
[SPEAKER_00]: we could make rules for ourselves that help us not contain us.
[SPEAKER_00]: Formulas that we can work on that give confidence.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I'm not a very confident person, so I have to work on my confidence all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And one secret way to get confidence I found was having a formula because it sort of made me not doubt myself as much.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so as I began to research these formulas and I realized they were working for me, they worked for a couple of friends, and then I started publishing them and I realized, oh, there are other awkward people and that's when I thought, you know what, maybe there's something to this.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was sort of the start of hacking human behavior.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like we always talk about IQ and EQ, but you talk about PQ.
[SPEAKER_01]: What is this exactly and like why is it so important with data?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there is actually a difference.
[SPEAKER_00]: So IQ is, you know, your technical smarts, your, your, the way that you process academic information and like learning information.
[SPEAKER_00]: EQ is how you process emotional information, including your own emotional information.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's reading the emotions of others and being able to process your own emotions.
[SPEAKER_00]: PQ is a little bit of a newer term.
[SPEAKER_00]: I did not create it, but it's where I live, which is,
[SPEAKER_00]: understanding people information, social information, being able to process body language cues, social cues, and then being able to both decode and encode them.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's not just, I can see that face, I saw they process fear, and I know how to address it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's recognizing the social information and then being able to deliver the correct social response.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's a little bit, it's a, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: So now we get why that you're so into body language.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks.
[SPEAKER_01]: So much sense now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I say the trifecta, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to be really successful, you master all three.
[SPEAKER_00]: Got it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we'll definitely have to add that one to our lingo.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love her.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I feel like it's like that stood out all this time later is body language.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you talk a lot about body language and how you can decode people better through body language.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'd love to get into it with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe starting with facial expressions.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you kind of tell us what cues you look for?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, how do you use body language and facial expressions to kind of hack that behavior?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, facial expressions are like a superpower and I apologize ahead of time because once you learn facial expressions, you can never unlearn them.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, great.
[SPEAKER_00]: For anyone who's listening, what do you learn these?
[SPEAKER_00]: You'll start seeing them everywhere and I apologize.
[SPEAKER_00]: I also think you should listen to this with like your best friend and your partner and your parents because you're going to be calling out all the facial expressions from here on out.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, or just looking at the mirror.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the most important one I think to recognize right off the bat is the fear micro expression.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it used to be believed that facial expressions were learned that we observed them from our parents.
[SPEAKER_00]: But actually, a lot of our facial expressions are coded within our DNA.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, code, one of my favorite words.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so if something is coded, it means that we can study it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It means there's a universality to it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so fear across cultures, across genders, across races,
[SPEAKER_00]: we all make this expression to stay safe.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you want to try this with me, it's when our eyelids widened to the whites of our eyes show above our pupils.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the whites upper whites of our eyes show.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then raise your eyebrows as far ahead that as they'll go.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we usually open our mouth and take an air.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and if you keep that expression, you'll begin to feel a little unnerved, a little bit anxious.
[SPEAKER_00]: Especially you try to widen your lids, the whites of your eyes show, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly, exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the funny thing about this is this keeps us safe, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: If we are in a dangerous environment or we're threatened by someone, our brain, our body wants to take in as much as we can.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we widen our eyes to see our environment, to see what our threats are, to see an escape route, and our mouth opens to take an oxygen in case we have to yell for help or run away.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that face,
[SPEAKER_00]: for all humans is the safest face we can make.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I know this sounds crazy for like dating or business, but actually, you see this expression all the time in social and business situations, all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you ask someone a question, they don't know the answer to, they will ask them often flash for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, in a business setting, if you say to someone, hey, do you know anything about this new client and someone flashes the whites of their eyes?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the easiest way is you just tap them, so they don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or if you ask an introvert, an overly personal question, you see the whites of their eyes.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, really funny pop culture example.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you guys see that viral video of the Texas lawyer who had the cat filter on us?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Everyone, go rewatch that video.
[SPEAKER_00]: You will see as he's looking for what to do about this filter, even in the cat image, his eyes are in the fear, micro expression.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is because the technology is making him nervous.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you ask an introvert over a personal question, if you ask someone a question that they have a lie or a bad answer to, they will often flash fear.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you say, you know, tell me about your ex.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they flashed for you, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Even if the verbal is like, oh yeah, yeah, we're on good terms, but they flashed for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know You've tapped into something nerve-racking.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for me facial expressions are like reading beyond the words It is so powerful.
[SPEAKER_00]: So fear is my favorite.
[SPEAKER_02]: Would you say people with too much bowtocks are making people really confused when reading facial expressions So bowtocks
[SPEAKER_00]: There's actually research on Botox, so Botox inhibits the facial feedback loop.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, this isn't always a bad thing, so when we're angry, let's talk about the anger, microexpression, anger is when you pull your eyebrows down into two vertical lines.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, if you've had Botox, you can't do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, you literally cannot throw your brows.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, that they've found actually reduces the amount of anger, a person feels.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, which is kind of amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, they're even I've heard through the grapevine that anger management classes are now recommending it Wow, two people who get no way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm so glad I got Botox.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like sure that I've been the happiest
[SPEAKER_02]: there you go.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what other facial expressions like I'm thinking I'm like what other negative ones could you watch out for like if you're on a date and you're trying to read if someone's into you because we hear all the time of people that go on a date They think it went wonderfully and then they never hear from this person again
[SPEAKER_00]: Totally, okay, so this is the same.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's funny because getting, I think in the straight went well and getting, not getting a callback or being ghosted is the same as doing a sales call or a pitch or a presentation thinking it went well and having a not go well.
[SPEAKER_00]: The same skills that if you can read facial expressions, it's almost like it's tipping you off to what potentially went wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: The biggest negative one is actually content.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not affected by Botox, which is very helpful.
[SPEAKER_00]: So contempt is a one-sided mouth-raise.
[SPEAKER_00]: So just try raising up one side of your mouth a little smirk.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep, yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that one-sided mouth-raise.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you hold it, you'll begin to feel better than scornful, negative.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't hold it for too long.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't hold it for too long.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's because it's a dangerous expression because it's often mistaken for like half-happiness or, you know, maybe like irony or sarcasm, but actually it's so negative that researcher Dr. John Gottman, he's a marriage and family council in Seattle, he researched thousands of married couples.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he found that the greatest predictor of divorce was that in the early interviews of a couple, one member of the couple showed contempt towards the other.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if that was the case with 93.6% accuracy, that couple would get divorced.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is insane insane.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just from a little lit movement here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what I would say is the two negative ones you really want to look out for on a date specifically are fear.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you just
[SPEAKER_00]: tap into something that makes them anxious or nervous or confused.
[SPEAKER_00]: But second is contempt because contempt is the only emotion that doesn't go away.
[SPEAKER_00]: So fear comes in a burst and people calm themselves down.
[SPEAKER_00]: Happiness comes in a burst and then people get back to normal.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anger people get frustrated and they get calm.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not contempt contempt is if someone feels contemptuous of something, and that isn't addressed, it sits and it festers.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you were to say something like a passion statement or a personal statement, I love to travel or I'm vegan or I'm really passionate about dogs and you see content on the person's face because they're trying to show half happiness you are in trouble.
[SPEAKER_00]: You want to make sure that that is not important to you because they feel contentious of something in net you just said something you just said.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it that they secretly don't like it and that they're trying to like pretend that they do is that why that facial expression is made?
[SPEAKER_00]: It could be that, or it could be.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it could be that they're secretly sort of like, ugh, I hate dogs.
[SPEAKER_00]: Who hates dogs?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know who that is.
[SPEAKER_00]: But someone says that, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Hate dogs, or it could be they've had a bad experience with dogs and they feel contemptuous of themselves.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't know, always what's happening inside, but we do know that something negative came up and not warrants for their investigations.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if I was on a date and someone said, and I said, I love to travel and they showed contempt.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would immediately toss back to them and say, do you love to travel?
[SPEAKER_00]: Have you traveled much?
[SPEAKER_00]: When was less than you traveled?
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it could be that it's not actually the thing, it's that they haven't been able to do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's when you want to go into investigation mode and that's what my career expressions are.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're red flags.
[SPEAKER_00]: their flags that say, look at me, ask me a question about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: God, it's what doesn't necessarily mean that they like don't like you or like there's the relationship is doomed, it's just whatever was said in that moment, if it continues to faster, I'm trying to like relate it back to the statement you made earlier about John Gottman, like how does that connect to like relationships falling apart?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's because it's a seed of dislike or a seed of difference.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if that difference isn't worked out, disgust, compromise, and respected, like we could have a difference.
[SPEAKER_00]: You might hate travel, I might like travel.
[SPEAKER_00]: And but if we have an understanding about that, if we've said, oh yeah, you'll go travel with your girlfriends, and I'm gonna be the home body.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: But in, in, in what Dr. Gottman found as in these couples, someone would say an eye statement like I'm not very organized and the other person would sort of flash contempt and that wasn't addressed.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so over time it would sit and it would fester and it would create disrespect and hatred and disdain.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's why facial expressions are like a superpower and a, and a early relationship during dating because it can help you a, give a peek into where your future communication issues might be.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's really helpful to learn, because I had to look up what contempt really means.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've never really thought about the definition and the definition is the feeling that a person or a thing is beneath consideration, worthless, or deserve that score.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's, you think about someone being condescending and dismissive.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I really think that plants a seed for disrespect.
[SPEAKER_02]: And as we all know in relationships, we need disrespect your partner, you're doomed.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's over.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why I'm so happy you guys asked about it because I think that that's we're all going to have communication issues.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're all going to have differences.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are differences in a relationship or good.
[SPEAKER_00]: As long as you're really crystal clear on what they are, I think that's the setting of a really beautiful relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: What about body language of how you stand relative to someone else?
[SPEAKER_01]: I've heard if you point your feet towards them, it means that you are into them.
[SPEAKER_01]: What is your take?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there any truth to that?
[SPEAKER_00]: There is some truth to that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So think about this way.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when you like something or when you're interested in something, you want to move towards it.
[SPEAKER_00]: you want to get closer to it, you want to listen to it, you want to hear it, you want to see it, right, like if you see a delicious piece of cake across the room, your whole body, you want to smell it, you want to taste it, you want to lick it, you want to be first in line to get it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the same kind of thing happens with people that we like, with topics that we like.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we've noticed that and and research, there's some research proof this is well that when there's a person in the room that we're most interested in now, this could be a crush, but this could be the boss.
[SPEAKER_00]: This could be someone who holds the keys to your tower, you know, this could be someone you're intrigued by.
[SPEAKER_00]: Your body will sort of give you away and your toes will begin to orient towards them because that's where you want to move.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I have noticed and I'm researching this for my next book, which I'm very excited about.
[SPEAKER_00]: But like when people are getting ready to leave a party, their body will start to angle towards the door.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like literally getting ready to go towards the door.
[SPEAKER_00]: When someone's really hungry, their body will slowly orient towards the buffet.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so this is a great thing because one, it can help you see intention, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: If someone's all of a sudden breaks away from you with their body begins to angle towards something, it's just let me know how they've disengaged slightly.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you have a choice.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can say, hey, do you want to grab some food together, grab a plate?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or you can say, oh, I'm going to ramp it up, but I'm going to be more engaging.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm going to get them back.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you have a choice with that queue, and that all body language is the same way as it gives you choices.
[SPEAKER_00]: It gives you more information.
[SPEAKER_00]: And more information is empowering for someone like me who's a recovering aqua person who doubts myself constantly to have some extra communication tools in my tool bell.
[SPEAKER_00]: Makes me feel like, OK, I think they just have this engaged great.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the perfect opportunity to go to the bathroom and reconnect later.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Vanessa, do you prioritize which part of the body is more important?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I always hear, like, oh, if there if her knees are pointed towards you, she must be interested.
[SPEAKER_02]: But what if her torso is turned away from you?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it just mixed signals?
[SPEAKER_00]: So some experts say that the feet are the windows to the soul, like the lower part of the body, because we don't think about it as much.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So like, they sort of are our intuition, our instinct.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like that, I think that's a cool idea, but I like to pay attention to the purposeful ones a little bit more.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if someone's angled their torso towards me and their head towards me and their chin and their shoulders, they are trying to connect with me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, if they're fear point of the other way, maybe they kind of have to go to the bathroom, but they're so engaged with me that they're trying.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would rather, I like to look at the facial expressions, I movement, mouth behavior, hand gestures, and torso more.
[SPEAKER_00]: The feet and the legs, if I see it great, other thing is like, just from a purely logistical standpoint, looking at someone's feet is kind of hard.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, like, pure logistics.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're in a great date with someone, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're like, head is under the table on a restaurant.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like another one that I think is really important is eye contacts like I noticed if someone isn't giving me eye contact and I noticed when they're really dialed in, but I've also had a friend that I've called out on this a little not even a romantic partner and it's kind of just the way she is like how do you like know whether like it's a sign or it's just you know they're not even they're oblivious to what they're doing kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had whenever I teach presentations, I have usually I teach a slide that talks about the science behind eye contact.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I always start with a little multiple choice question.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we'll have we'll do it together, everyone listening.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, in Western cultures, so this is a little different, the little different verb cultures.
[SPEAKER_00]: But let's take Western cultures.
[SPEAKER_00]: What amount of the conversation should you be making eye contact?
[SPEAKER_00]: So in a one to one conversation, what percent of the time should you be
[SPEAKER_00]: Engaging an eye contact.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it a 30% b 50% of the time c 65% of the time or d 90% of the time?
[SPEAKER_01]: See I would say 90 is not see that that's a D. So I would say D. Okay, so the answer.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, correct the answer is C. Yes, we're see.
[SPEAKER_00]: So here's what's funny about that every single answer gets hands raised.
[SPEAKER_00]: So some people raise their head at 30% so you know are sure it's 50% so you'll are sure it's Is that and so that's hot me something very interesting that yes, I get though the research shows 65% But when you actually ask thousands and thousands of people everyone has different ideas of appropriate eye contact
[SPEAKER_00]: This in a way, I think, gives you permission that if you're in between 30 and 90% great, if you can narrow it a little bit more to like 50 to 70 perfect, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would say that you don't have to drive yourself crazy with this, but you do want to try to make eye contact for enough of the time where you're at least looking at their facial expressions.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're noticing their eye color.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're noticing their eye movement.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to be locked eyes with them.
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, 90% you begin to get a little invasive.
[SPEAKER_00]: Look, it begins to be like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that should give people permission that they don't have to make eye contact a lot of the time, but you want to notice their expressions.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of the rule of thumb.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that hopefully that makes you feel better.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's also interesting too, because I think I make eye contact a lot, which is why I value it a lot, but you're basically saying that it can vary so it may not really be an indicator of interest.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if you think that the person isn't doing it as much.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that under 30% and it isn't indicator of interest.
[SPEAKER_00]: Does that make sense to, like, if it goes under 30%, you're actually missing the chemical of oxytocin.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when we make eye contact, we produce oxytocin.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, if you're not making enough eye contact, you're not producing enough oxytocin, which means that if someone's not wanting the oxytocin from you, there is a lack of interest there.
[SPEAKER_01]: So does that mean if you're making 90%, you're just like so obsessed with each other?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's invasive, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, well, let's put this way.
[SPEAKER_00]: What do we do right before we kiss?
[SPEAKER_00]: We make 90% eye contact.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's just sliding up the scale of intimacy.
[SPEAKER_00]: That isn't bad if you're vibing, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're vibing and you're like, yeah, I want you to kiss me, great, slide up that scale, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like go all the way up.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you're in the loud bar, you're not sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes 90% can be like, whoa, this is coming on too strong.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's all contextual that makes sense too.
[SPEAKER_00]: But in it, but always in between 30 to 90, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we never want to go below or above.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of my range.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if someone's like consistently removing their eyes from you, that's a bad sign, basically.
[SPEAKER_00]: If they're only looking at your feet, then they've either heard something weird about body language.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no.
[UNKNOWN]: Oh, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, they're avoiding.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Vanessa, you say that the first five minutes is really important when meeting someone new, making that first impression.
[SPEAKER_02]: So what are some quick tips you can give to our listeners for making a very good first impression in those first five minutes?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I really like studying first impressions.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that I put a lot of pressure on myself to make every answer amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, when I was dating, when I was doing pitches, interviews, I was like, I have to have every answer be perfect.
[SPEAKER_00]: By the way, when test be perfect for the entire time.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then I actually realized, like, the research.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's actually not true.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's actually good news in that it's really just the first few seconds.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like,
[SPEAKER_00]: If you can make the first few seconds great nonverbally, it kind of sets you up for a really good interaction no matter what you say or do, which is kind of nice.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would say in the first few seconds, and when we break this down, there's a couple key elements to a good first impression.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the number one is openness, in the sense of we don't like when things block our bodies.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we don't like when someone
[SPEAKER_00]: It's crossing their arms or holding some in front of their chest.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't like when someone doesn't reach their hands out towards us, because that feels like they're being closed off.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you want to be open as possible.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mutual eye contact, smiling at the same time, showing hand gestures, and making visible hands.
[SPEAKER_00]: Reach
[SPEAKER_00]: out for a very purposeful non-verbal initiation of touch.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that could be a handshake, that could be a hug, that could be a cheek kiss, that could be a high-five, that could be a fist bump.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like all those things just be very clear.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the most awkward thing that you can do in interaction is be unsure of what kind of touch you want to give.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if I feel comfortable with someone I'm like I'm coming in for a hug and I will literally open my eyes wide as I'm coming in for a hug.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I want a cheek kiss which I don't usually do but if it's my European friends,
[SPEAKER_00]: That clarity is so it makes someone feel like, oh wow, this person knows what they want.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know what they want, and we're warm, we're compensate, we're all in the same page.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well that's probably why it would always greet with a hug.
[SPEAKER_01]: They got a first date a lot of times, because it's like setting up for openness.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I can see why that became a thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm still kind of into that and I actually think that it went in the predating phase.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's actually a great question to be like, hey, are you comfortable hugging when we see each other?
[SPEAKER_00]: I actually think that's like a very respectful thing to ask.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that way, like, when you go in for the hug, it can be even warmer because you've already permissioned it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So five minutes, like, I know that's like the first, like 30 seconds or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, is there anything verbally you can do to really make that master impression?
[SPEAKER_00]: I've changed my opinion on this over the years.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you'll have to forgive me if I've given different advice in different YouTube videos.
[SPEAKER_00]: But as I've tried this with different people and watched my students try it, I've noticed that if you start with something too sparking, like two different and unique, it throws people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, so if you're like, hey, Angel, Texas baby, people are like,
[SPEAKER_00]: What?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's too weird.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like two different.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I actually think that you're first like five words out of your mouth should be pretty casual.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, how's it going?
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, good to see you positive neutral.
[SPEAKER_00]: The second ten words is where you can get a little more creative.
[SPEAKER_00]: So like I think that the best thing you can do, whether it's a video call or in person meeting is like,
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, it's a win to see you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my gosh, this is amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, you look great.
[SPEAKER_00]: What a beautiful restaurant.
[SPEAKER_00]: What amazing weather.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's when you can go into the next, a little bit more positive, a little bit more different.
[SPEAKER_02]: Huh, I wonder if that applies to dating apps too when it comes to messaging that I get thrown off when the first message is a little too in your face.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe you're just a simple, hey, I notice your profile, how are you?
[SPEAKER_02]: And then go into like the more unique opener.
[SPEAKER_01]: I agree.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that it works in dating apps just like in person.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like it's like we have to know someone's not a weirdo But it's still one thing to be interesting, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I always say positive like if you can use words like good great amazing wonderful in those first 10 words I do think it changes the nature of the interaction, but it doesn't have to be what a wonderful earring You're wearing it doesn't have to be that right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It can be like this is such a great day.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so great to see you
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I know there's like research that, you know, people love talking about themselves.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like a way to kind of get to their heart is to ask about them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, is there any emotion you should pull on in those initial, like, questions?
[SPEAKER_00]: Positive, positive, positive.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like,
[SPEAKER_00]: That what everyone is looking for is a breath of fresh air.
[SPEAKER_00]: They might not say that But like what we really want is we catch positivity.
[SPEAKER_00]: So their research shows that our emotions are very contagious So if you start with like what's good?
[SPEAKER_00]: What's good in the world right now?
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is how I approach all my meetings On my video calls.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like thinking what's good?
[SPEAKER_00]: What's something good?
[SPEAKER_00]: I can bring up was your good weather is they're good something genuinely good that puts me in a different kind of a space
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you come with that energy, it's very contagious.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we remember people who are positive.
[SPEAKER_00]: We do not like it when someone's like, oh, the weather's so terrible, isn't it?
[SPEAKER_00]: My gosh, I've been so busy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my God, it was such a horrible traffic tonight.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, we don't like that because we don't want to catch it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Gotta be realistic, but positive.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, this has been such an amazing conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're lucky to have Vanessa for the short time that we did.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know that you're very busy, so we're very happy to get at least a short time with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'd love to kind of transition us into some takeaways.
[SPEAKER_01]: Think one thing for me that came to mind is
[SPEAKER_01]: Not, I think the part around the eye contact really resonated with me that everyone has different thresholds.
[SPEAKER_01]: So while there are certain indicators of interest, it's not always reflective necessarily of the true interest based on your perception.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's all relative to how you view it and I think while it's really important to look at body language, what I really took away from this
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the whole part around contempt, it's not necessarily if you see that facial expression that your whole relationship is going down the drain, but it's a reason to ask why and what's happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think even in the eye contact example, if you see someone like not making that the same level that you would necessarily, it's an opportunity to like ask if something's distracting them or whatever it may be, it just open up that dialogue by paying attention to
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the non-verbal cues are so important.
[SPEAKER_02]: That was my takeaways.
[SPEAKER_02]: That your non-verbal communication is just as important as your verbal communication.
[SPEAKER_02]: So when we're on these dates and so many of us feel stressed and pressure to fill the space with words,
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes we can just do it with our bodies, we can turn our feet towards the person on a date with.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe we can turn our square shoulders off to them and just take a beat to show them that you are showing interest with your body.
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's also a good reminder that we need to be just more present with our partners and on these states.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we can even be aware of the body language, just even, you know, Vanessa said, hold your gaze for long enough that you can, you can identify their eye color that was like, I can't tell you how many dates I've been on where I can't recall their eye color because I probably was thinking too much about what should I say next and my coming off okay, I didn't even take
[SPEAKER_02]: the time to look at the person I'm a date with.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think it's just it reminds us that we need to be more present when we're in the presence of other people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that I'm like trying to think back to like when I have like noticed people's body like, which I really don't notice it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Vanessa, I think when you made that comment around, you know, like people by default are gonna feel close to like what they want and like feel like they're pointing directions at all that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I think that is kind of a reminder when you see those signs too that maybe you're onto something good.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, this has been so interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there any final takeaway you would leave like our audience of, you know, like, what is the kind of like the tips to like ensure that you are understanding behavior like what would be kind of a broad level take away you would have.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that the biggest thing that I think it's my life's work to share this message, so hopefully I won't get too much on you for the moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: But really, if I could spread one idea out into the world, it's very important for people who want to meet their people.
[SPEAKER_00]: is there are multiple definitions of charisma.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of us think we have to be the bubbly, happy extrovert all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's not true.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are many different kinds of charisma.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can be a quiet, contemplative introvert.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can be a compassionate, empathetic nurture.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can be a warm,
[SPEAKER_00]: friendly, likable, breath of fresh air.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can be the impressive, funny, magnetic person.
[SPEAKER_00]: Those are all different kinds of charismatic and they're all correct.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're all right.
[SPEAKER_00]: We like all those people.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so don't feel like you have to show up or pretend to fake it till you make it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do not believe and think it till you make it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you have a natural version of your own charisma that is wonderful and powerful and that will attract your person.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would say don't try to think it till you make it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't try to pretend to be an extrovert.
[SPEAKER_00]: Instead of find your natural strengths, find your natural social strengths, figure out where your most charismatic on your own, and try to find people who like you for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's great advice.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Be yourself.
[SPEAKER_02]: to your fullest potential.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly, and that's where the hacks come in.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly, exactly, and if you need some hacks along the way, amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I could not find my natural charisma without those hacks, which is why I've made a career out of sharing them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you share with people how they can find you if they want to look into these hacks a little more?
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course, so I put out a free YouTube video every week and we go deep, like we go in-depth and in my two videos and they're all up for free.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm Vanessa Van Edwards on YouTube.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then if you want to kind of have the plan, like if you're more of a systematic learner than I would be honored if you would check out Captivate.
[SPEAKER_00]: I also read my audible book and try to be a little funny sometimes.
[SPEAKER_00]: So hopefully that's another if you're a listener.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's available wherever
[SPEAKER_00]: And then of course, my website, sciencepeople.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have all of our courses or online content and our email, like downloadable PDFs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.
[SPEAKER_00]: Great.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll include all of that in our show notes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And one last question for you is, do you think all awkward people know that they're awkward?
[UNKNOWN]: No.
[SPEAKER_00]: Definitely not.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, we're actually not.
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, it's funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that the sometimes the most awkward people can be the most brilliant people.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I, my, the people that I love to help the most are my brilliant talented, above average people.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're so, their chievers, they're smart, they've had degrees, they've killed it in a career.
[SPEAKER_00]: And finally, there's something that happens where their social skills catch up with them.
[SPEAKER_00]: where they realize that they have achieved something amazing but no one invites them to lunch, or that they have a brilliant idea or piece of technology or invention, but they can't raise funding, or they are super career successful but can't find their soulmate.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that I think actually the most awkward people tend to be the most brilliant, which means they don't always see that all they need is a little bit of help on the social school side, and that would unlock all their brilliance, but they don't realize it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you just need those hacks.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's all.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, Vanessa Van Edwards, everyone, thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, thank you so much for having me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And thanks everyone for giving us your time and letting me share this mission.
[SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks Vanessa.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you haven't done so yet, subscribe to the psychology of relationships today.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you don't miss an episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: Bye.