[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Julie Craftscheck, and I'm U.A.
[SPEAKER_02]: Xu.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the psychology of relationships.
[SPEAKER_02]: Communication is often described as a foundation of the healthy relationship, but what does that actually look like in practice?
[SPEAKER_02]: And how do you know of you're doing it well?
[SPEAKER_02]: Especially in times when you get activated.
[SPEAKER_02]: In this episode, we're joined by Sandy Weener, relationship coach, author, and host of the last first-rate radio podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: to explore the four communication archetypes and what they reveal about how we show up in conflict and connection.
[SPEAKER_02]: We break down how these patterns reflect our deeper emotional responses and why conflict can feel so triggering to our nervous systems.
[SPEAKER_02]: We also explore how to express needs without aggression or withdrawal, how attachment patterns and past relationship experiences shape communication under stress and why misunderstandings are often more about emotional tone and on that needs rather than the issue itself.
[SPEAKER_02]: And importantly, how becoming a more effective communicator is not in the
[SPEAKER_02]: Remember to subscribe to the Psychology of Relationships on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and if this episode helped you rethink how you communicate in relationships, we'd love a rating or review.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the psychology of relationships, and you're listening to an episode that just might change the way you show up for love.
[SPEAKER_01]: Enjoy!
[SPEAKER_02]: and is a part of every day of life.
[SPEAKER_02]: When we're born, we communicate verbally and non-verbaly and when it comes to human relationships, it's arguably the most important thing to keep a relationship alive, I would say.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yet, we don't learn.
[SPEAKER_02]: Communication skills in school.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll get degrees in communication and then we're just thrown out in the world and people are like, here, go, communicate.
[SPEAKER_02]: You'll be fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where if we do get degrees, it's definitely not like inter-personal communication.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's like, no one teaches you how to communicate a relationships ever.
[SPEAKER_02]: In every sanity, I think, but standing leaner is going to enlighten us with some communication skills and just break down what communication really is.
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's just get into why do you think relationships can really benefit from communication?
[SPEAKER_02]: Why is communication just such an important part of it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, like you said, it's everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: We do not learn how to communicate well at home.
[SPEAKER_00]: Most of us, it's pretty rare to have a family that's a direct communicators and kind communicators and really tune into our feelings.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we don't even know what feelings are.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't know what our needs are.
[SPEAKER_00]: know anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know that for me it influenced the choices I made and dating and the way that I dated, the way that I chose a husband, my marriage was filled with a lot of really bad communication.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when I became a coach and got divorced, it was one of the first areas.
[SPEAKER_00]: that I focused on and actually my ex-husband had a wake-up call at the end of our marriage and went to get help in his communication and yeah he studied nonviolent communication which helped the end of our marriage the last three years during the separation it helped us to really be peaceful and amicable and talk it was amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So how to communicate, if you don't mind us going into it, like how to communication, like, kind of show up in that relationship ultimately ending it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, Stonewalling was a big one.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for everybody who doesn't know what that is, that's basically when somebody walks away from a conversation,
[SPEAKER_00]: shuts the door on you.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there was a lot of that I remember trying to have difficult conversations and he was so conflict diverse that we'd be like on a walk together and I'd say I just want to talk about what happened and he turned around and walked away from me and just leave me standing there.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the hardest times in our marriage we went on a cruise so he was a comedian by the way.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he was performing on the QE2.
[SPEAKER_00]: We were taking a five-day cruise across the Atlantic from New York to England.
[SPEAKER_00]: And his parents were on the boat.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was a whole other layer of our marriage, where his parents were very involved.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he would go to them to talk about stuff rather than work things out with me.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, relieving the city and I'm looking at the beautiful sunset over New York City.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I say, this is so beautiful.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he says, yes, I want to share it with my parents.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I said, we're here together.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he left me on the deck as the boat was leaving.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that was the beginning of this trip.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I actually had a panic attack that night when I went to sleep.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was my first panic attack ever.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think I just, it, it just everything culminated.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was feeling trapped on the boat, feeling trapped in my marriage.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he chose his parents over me.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was just like, so I think that happens a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: And people just don't have the skills to be able to be in conflict.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think the most, the times I felt most anxious in relationships is when the parties weren't communicating.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like usually when you can just break it down and have a conversation, a lot of the stuff that's floating in our head goes away.
[SPEAKER_01]: But for whatever reason, it could be very difficult to like have that conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think
[SPEAKER_01]: a lot of it like I know it's something like a skill that I've had to actively work on through out like the last like 10 years like because it's something that I think a lot of us are afraid to speak up because we don't want to rock the boat or we don't want to like make things bad but in theory like actually having those conversations could make it a lot better.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and so much is left to assumption.
[SPEAKER_00]: The stories we make up in our heads, man, I see this all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of the coaching I do is to take apart those stories with women who are making up, well, he didn't do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that means that and it's like, well, how do you know that?
[SPEAKER_00]: So separating fact from fiction is a big part of our own process.
[SPEAKER_00]: So communication is on many levels.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's how we experience somebody else.
[SPEAKER_00]: and the triggers that we have and the stories we make out the assumptions.
[SPEAKER_00]: So with there's yours, mine and ours, and any relationship, there's my stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, okay, I'm always triggered when something happens and so I need to work that out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then there's your partners' stuff and then there's the stuff that gets created between the two of you that needs to be worked out.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I had a situation once when I was dating a guy where
[SPEAKER_00]: We were dating for a couple months, and it was a Saturday night right before I was launching a new program.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you probably know that when you're in the middle of a launch, you're not exactly relaxed, and there's so much to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I wanted to see them Saturday night, but I told them I couldn't stay over, because I just knew I needed a full night's sleep.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he did not take that well.
[SPEAKER_00]: He took a personally, but he didn't talk about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this was the first argument we had where he receded.
[SPEAKER_00]: He used to send me these cute little texts every morning with these funny little poems.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the next day I got nothing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I waited a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I wrote him, I missed your poem.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he wrote back, he started getting into why he was upset.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I
[SPEAKER_00]: We live to better now or from each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's another step.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, don't have tough conversations on text.
[SPEAKER_00]: And actually you bring stuff up early on.
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you think is the main cause of a lot of issues in relationships is it.
[SPEAKER_02]: because I'm hearing two main ones.
[SPEAKER_02]: One is this idea that we should avoid conflict.
[SPEAKER_02]: I hear couples being proud of the fact that they never fight and I'm like, what is wrong with you?
[SPEAKER_02]: Why do you never fight?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because people want to avoid conflict and they think that's something to be proud of.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or is it the issue that we think we are mind readers and we're constantly trying to fill in the blank for our partner?
[SPEAKER_02]: Which one do you think is a bigger issue?
[SPEAKER_00]: God, that's all, it's really bad.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe they'll go hand in hand.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because when you wait tough, like, then you still know.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you start making up stories about your partner.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you can't stuff your emotions for a long time.
[SPEAKER_00]: People do it for, I mean, I would say months, years, they can implode and get sick.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it would never, somebody says to me, I'm never fight.
[SPEAKER_00]: I always ask, are they having honest communication?
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So back to you, Sandy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we're you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like, we're like, obviously now you're, you know, you talk about communication for all this podcast, but your time about your marriage where communication was a big problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, did you always view yourself as a good communicator or their steps that you took to like practice and fine tune the skill?
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought I was a good kid in a cater.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought I had all these great skills and I certainly had insight and I was pretty centered.
[SPEAKER_00]: I could look inward when there was a conflict and I could sort of parse out what the issues were.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I really didn't know how to name my feelings or my needs.
[SPEAKER_00]: I did not know how to set boundaries.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't even know really what
[SPEAKER_00]: what all my needs and values were.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that, a lot of that came from coaching school.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when I really got clarity around how to understand my values, but the feelings in needs part came during the end of my marriage.
[SPEAKER_00]: When the the process of nonviolent communication is the first step is to take out all the judgment and all the
[SPEAKER_00]: the stuff that we make up around the person.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that they call that the jackal.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you first are triggered by somebody or you feel hurt, you're going to probably be name calling what a jerk.
[SPEAKER_00]: You always do this, you'd never do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Those are always that we sabotage the conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we have to look at all that.
[SPEAKER_00]: What do we bring into the conversation and clear it all the way?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we get to a clean observation.
[SPEAKER_00]: this happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's take the the thing where I didn't sleep over the boyfriend's house, and he got upset.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he could have said, when you didn't sleep at my house, I was upset.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or you didn't sleep, you didn't sleep over Saturday night.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the fact, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no feelings or needs attached to that yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you go through what was I feeling, and you go through
[SPEAKER_00]: a lot of feelings to see what exactly were you feeling because most of us have very small vocabulary around emotions.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we were feeling that because a need of ours wasn't meant.
[SPEAKER_00]: And once we can identify what those two things are, we can express ourselves much more clearly.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you can make a request of the person.
[SPEAKER_00]: The next time this happens, would you be willing to do this?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, then you have a conversation, but you're not accusing and you're not.
[SPEAKER_00]: name calling and doing all the bad stuff that happens in fighting.
[SPEAKER_02]: So from a learning standpoint, are there different communication styles that we can break down now?
[SPEAKER_02]: So we can attach ourselves to one or the other.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I want to say they're not static.
[SPEAKER_00]: you can be one and you can become another and really what you want to do is be the most high functioning communicator.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I created for archetypes and they're all animals.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the first one is the lion or the lioness and that's the assertive communicator.
[SPEAKER_00]: and the assertive communicator can speak with confidence in clarity, she knows her core values, she doesn't play games, she doesn't manipulate, and she wants to connect, you know, she knows how to set clear boundaries with others, and it's a skill set that can be learned.
[SPEAKER_00]: then there is the scorpion, which is the aggressive style, and the aggressor is really right or wrong thinking, always wants to win.
[SPEAKER_00]: She doesn't really feel the effect of her actions in words on other people, and she thinks that her opinions needs and rights are more important than other people's.
[SPEAKER_00]: and she wants to be seen her and appreciated, but she doesn't know how to, she doesn't know how to get valued without putting other people down or being the loudest person in the room.
[SPEAKER_00]: And let's see, the koala is the passive aggressive.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is an interesting one.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was trying to find an animal for the passive aggressive.
[SPEAKER_00]: I never knew that koalas are really passive aggressive.
[SPEAKER_00]: Are they really really?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they look really cuddly and sweet, but they can suddenly lash out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Violin really is so good.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's that archetype.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I'm so kind and I'm just too nice.
[SPEAKER_00]: and really what they're doing is they're suppressing what's really true for them because they're massive people, please, and they may use sarcasm.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're indirectly aggressive, which I really hate.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're often they're too faced.
[SPEAKER_00]: They would be gossip a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: They can be deceitful.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the puppy is the submissive style.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's the real people, please.
[SPEAKER_00]: She just suppresses her needs and wants to make everybody happy and not upset anybody.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I was the puppy at one point.
[SPEAKER_01]: What are you now, Julie?
[SPEAKER_01]: Wait, what was the first one?
[SPEAKER_01]: The lion or the lion?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I'm the lion.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I feel like I've done a lot of work on communication, but there was something I struggled with for a very long time.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm, what about you, you A. I feel like it depends on the context.
[SPEAKER_02]: Within a relationship, I would say I'm the lioness, but at work, I'm definitely the koala, super passive aggressive.
[SPEAKER_01]: I could see that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Super nice.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is interesting because I do think that it depends on the context.
[SPEAKER_02]: It depends on your talking to and it depends on your partner in a relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I was definitely the puppy at one point with some of my previous relationships, but for my current one, I'm definitely the lioness.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that's a good point.
[SPEAKER_01]: It could be the person, but I think also it can be the self work because I actually like remember like when I revisited a past relationship Like he was like, wow, you've really changed like how you communicate and I'm like, yeah, we're doing this to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like some of it does come out with just experience and working that muscle and being aware of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I think for me a lot of it was stemmed from childhood to
[SPEAKER_01]: That like I didn't want to like, you know, like rock the boat.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I wanted to just like, you know, make everything be okay and good.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I didn't like, because I think I didn't want to I grew up with fighting and I did not want that in a relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I did like the reverse 180.
[SPEAKER_01]: where I wouldn't have any conflict, but then I would just suppress it and then I would get resentful because I wasn't actually like, because you get never have any conflict, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I think I go up in your house.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's related.
[SPEAKER_02]: You see what animal?
[SPEAKER_00]: What animal are you?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm definitely the lioness now, and I probably was more a combination of puppy and koala.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was never, I was never the scorpion, because that was my family, it was a bunch of scorpions.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, and there was also a lot of the passive aggressive in my family too, so there was yelling, but there was such unclear communication.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, we'd be screened at for not doing something, but we had no idea we were supposed to do it, because we were not my readers, and so that, yeah, and I think just knowing what I didn't want was a lot of the motivation for who I became, but it's hard without the skills.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, every time I work with somebody new and today I just started working with a new client who grew up in a home with very, very cold parents, which is also very common.
[SPEAKER_00]: and so she didn't get the love she needed and she struggled to keep the peace as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it can be from either cold or hot parents and we just, we don't know how to get our needs met.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think a lot of people feel it's mean to set boundaries, it's, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when you don't know how to do it, my teacher will course on boundaries because of this work.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just so important to learn how to say what you need to say.
[SPEAKER_00]: and to say it nicely, you may say it kindly, not be a pushover.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think that's why it's good that we're starting to address acts.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think our parents' generation, too, like, you know, just, like, if we think we're uneducated with communication, like the older and older you get, like, just more with stuff to get, like, under the wrong kind of thing and looking in retrospect, like, I certainly don't blame them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, they were just doing their best with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think the whole piece about like stating your needs in like a way that isn't mean or selfish.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I think for a long time I like felt like it was selfish to state my needs.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that was the area that my ex saw the biggest change to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't necessarily that we had conflict.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was that I was just more like this is what I want.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is what I expect opposed to expect to him to be a mine reader.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think
[SPEAKER_01]: Some of it too, I think stems from like, you know, like romantic comedy isn't like bad, like dating books that it's like, if they really love you, they would know what to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's just not always real mistakes, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: When you're in love with you, just communicate.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's like telepathically.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's so much truth to that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think also we tend to see the world only in our way.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't really see the world in the way the other person does.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's another big piece of growth.
[SPEAKER_00]: When I was having conflict with my daughter after the divorce, I hired a coach, relationship coach, to help me with her.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I worked with her alone, but she had me draw a
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, just don't imaginary triangle.
[SPEAKER_00]: And one point of the triangle is you, the other point is the other person, and then the top of the triangle is the relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you first stand in your position.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're doing this alone.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you're saying what the issue is.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then you go in the other person's position.
[SPEAKER_00]: You try to see it from their point of view.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that was like, wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: I never saw it that way and then you look at it from the relationship perspective who you are together.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's fascinating to do this because I was able to see that I was expecting her to be me, you know, and to see things the way I saw them and to put things away the way I would put things you know, and it's
[SPEAKER_00]: We get so angry, we take it personally when somebody doesn't do what you want and so if you just say it kindly and then if like if you're dating somebody and you say it kindly and you ask for what you want and they keep ignoring you or they say, oh you're too sensitive Are you doing anything?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and I always say if somebody says you are too something, it means you're too much for them.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not that you have the problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: They have a problem with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think that's important, though, because if you expect people to be mind readers, you're not even giving them an opportunity to react in any way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, like what you just said, if someone's like putting you down or like like says they're going to do something, then they just continue not to at least that's a data point, but if you never ask them in the first place, like they can't kind of expect that they would just know that no.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we expect that in relationships a little too much, and I think that's the.
[SPEAKER_02]: crux of all the dating problems in issues is that even in the beginning of like when you're just texting or messaging back and forth, there's a lot of like misread messages and misunderstanding because you're just putting yourself putting them in your shoes like, well, this is why I would say that but like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: When you really don't know their their mere strangers and we think we forget that when it comes to dating, you're meeting a stranger.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I feel like the love language is was kind of like a good way to let see how different people, like, you know, show the love and took in love, but I feel like there needs to be something for communication styles even more in a way, but I guess, okay, so the three of us were able to identify ours pretty easily, probably because we've been thinking about this a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: What about the average person?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, might not know which animal they fall into, like, what are ways that they can, like, identify their patterns, and their communication styles, and then also their partners, if they have a partner.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I have a quiz that will be up on my website by the time this goes live, and I'll give you a link to that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so people can really go through and see where they come out.
[SPEAKER_00]: not only does the quiz help you identify your identity or communication style but it tells you why you became that way and what you can do like what are the characters, what are the characters traits who becomes so like who becomes a puppy?
[SPEAKER_00]: the puppy developed this style because he or she grew up in a family that
[SPEAKER_00]: probably didn't honor her for who she was, but what she did, like she had approved who she was.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she learned that through pleasing others, she'd be appreciated.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when she spoke up in the past, she was put down and told she was too sensitive or too loud or too something.
[SPEAKER_00]: So often, and it can be a loving home.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I had a client who was brought up in a home where a parent was ill, and she had to suppress who she was in order not to upset her mom.
[SPEAKER_00]: you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she became the straight-a student who had to be perfect and ended up marrying a narcissistic man and didn't know why.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you know it's it's it's clear, but throughout her, she never can they never connected the dots as to how she became a codependent.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's but parents love me so much.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they did, but you had to not be you.
[SPEAKER_00]: So
[SPEAKER_00]: When we don't, aren't allowed to fully be us and be honored for who we are, we end up with some of these dysfunctional communication styles.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we protect ourselves by hiding parts of who we are.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's, I definitely was quiet because I didn't want to be judged.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think we do these things to protect ourselves and put up these shields.
[SPEAKER_02]: And once we know how we came about this,
[SPEAKER_02]: communication style is communication style similar to schemas where it's just the way you are and you just have to learn to cope with it or is there like a north star animal is there like like the dolphin we should all be working towards becoming the dolphin or something like
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's like attachment styles a little bit more than this game is because attachment like let's say you have an avoidant attachment style and you tend to shut down when you're in relationships and avoid intimacy.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can learn how to be a more secure attachment style in many different ways and it's the same thing with communication.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can learn to get clear
[SPEAKER_00]: on your values and your core needs.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can stop saying, yes, when you mean no, like the boundaries really help a lot with any of the codependent kinds of communication styles and you stop doing favors for people.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that's the yeses all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, I'm just, yeah, I'm so nice.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not so nice.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're depleting yourself and I don't want to be around you.
[SPEAKER_00]: You learn to accept feedback and get feedback.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I join toast masters
[SPEAKER_00]: Part of Toastmasters is speaking up, but it's also learning how to give and receive feedback.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in the evaluation process, I mean, that's a big part of asserting yourself and becoming a lioness.
[SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of people, when I hear people give evaluations, they only say nice things.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then they kind of relay the entire speech.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's really not very effective or valuable about you, both.
[SPEAKER_00]: But when you tell someone, you just like you would say in a relationship,
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is the part that worked and here's where I think you can really grow even more.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's some areas of improvement and you hone in on those things.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's going to be a lot more valuable than hearing your speech, you know, given back to you in the same thing with when you're in conflict.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I really care about you and here's what's not working for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or this is making me uncomfortable.
[SPEAKER_00]: So learning scripts, learning how to say things even at the beginning of the dating process, like he said, being able to let a person know that if you don't like texting, say, I don't like texting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I find it really a hard way to get to know people, and I'd love to get on the phone, does that work for you?
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's a way to say these things where it's not like, you know, what the hell are you doing texting me so much?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all how you say it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's what I've learned over this is like I think before I thought conflict equals yelling and getting upset every relationship has conflict because you're two people coming together with different world views and ways of processing things and it's how you say it like if you could say it in a calm way a versus like a heated way and again every scenarios different there may be a scenario that's not possible, but I think
[SPEAKER_01]: the more we can like bring conflict with love.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's like because like some of it's just like how you say it you're going to get a response asserted way like someone's going to feel defensive or like whatever it may be like I think it's how you say it is so important and the intention like what you're saying right now it's it's.
[SPEAKER_00]: If your intention is to connect more deeply or to get to know somebody better, let them know upfront.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm having this conversation with you because I care about you and I'm going to get closer to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: That takes away so much of the scaringness and the defensiveness.
[SPEAKER_00]: which is another one of those terrible ways of arguing the criticism defense of this stone walling.
[SPEAKER_00]: And contempt are the full ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: The four worst ways we can argue because they shut the door in your face.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's all right around thinking instead of I actually want to get closer to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think the fight that's like me versus you, there's going to be a winner and a loser.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that mentality is just setting you up for failure by getting into that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: How do we restructure our thinking around confrontations?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I think in all the examples you've given, some people would classify those as confrontation when you're stating your needs.
[SPEAKER_02]: How can we get people around the mindset that it's not a confrontation?
[SPEAKER_02]: And if it is a confrontation, doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would use the word conflict resolution.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you really trying to resolve the issue, not have conflict.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that people are really afraid of the big fight.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like you said Julie, it's because the way that we've experienced conflict has been all the worst ways, you know, it's just the yelling and we feel attacked.
[SPEAKER_00]: It feels violent.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's why nonviolent communication is a way to get closer and to connect.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was actually created to have a piece among gang members and boring countries.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this was where this whole process started.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you can take gang members who hate each other and find common values, because that's really where we connect.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you look at most couples, they really do have the same goals, the same values.
[SPEAKER_00]: and it's how we express it that's different.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if we can find a way to bridge that gap and say, okay, we both have the same needs.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's find a way to make it work for both of us.
[SPEAKER_00]: You both have to be willing to do it, but I think that's a way to to make peace and bridge those gaps.
[SPEAKER_01]: So outside of light taking your quiz, which I fully plan on doing with my partner also, I'm like, how do you like start to understand where they're coming from a bit?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because here's an example that someone in our community gave that she's dating someone, and he's a little less direct.
[SPEAKER_01]: like he's more abstract like you'd say like I want to talk more.
[SPEAKER_01]: But to her she's like does that mean talk on the phone, text, each other like what does that actually?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah like exactly like what does that actually mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like it would have been better if he just came out and said I would like it if you called me at the end of the day every day.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, how do you like kind of manage these two that are different?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's not even a conflict per se.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's like an every, I mean, it's a mini conflict, but it's not like a, what you think of is like a blow out fighter or anything, but it's like these little stressors of just two people coming at this in opposite view points.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, how do you reconcile those?
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say curiosity is the key.
[SPEAKER_00]: I always ask questions.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if somebody says talk more, what do you mean by that?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a simple question.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I mean if you start guessing, you're going to make yourself crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: When I talk to my mom, I'm constantly trying to figure out what she's trying to say because she leaves out a lot of words.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm like, okay, I think that means that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you meet that?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure, Mom, you just left out a whole piece there, so it's hard for me to make that lead, but I speak up and ask for what I want.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, I live with one of my children who communicates in a completely different way.
[SPEAKER_00]: And pretty much everything I say is taken out of context.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like I have to not get triggered by that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's been really very challenging, but what I'll do is I'll take a breath and center myself.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I'll ask her, what are you making up there?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because, you know, and that's another thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like we make up stories.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Renee Brown says, the story I'm making up is, and that's a great way to start a conversation too.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, just ask questions.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's like, you know, tell me more.
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: I love the birthday brown, like this is the story in my head, because I feel like it's such a great way to phrase it too, because it's not putting it on your partner, it's putting it on yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think ultimately, like, yes, I mean, like someone can say something that offends you, but at the end of the day it's how you are processing it, and all we can do is share that and then have them learn from that, like, again, back to people not being a mind reader, but I think if you went into that and being like,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you never text me or you never call me like that's like a very different vibe that's going to just elicit a response back that's not like a conversation right so that you never text me as more of a Scorpio kind of approach it's an accusation it's not a request.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, so it's in it's not direct.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's indirect and now I'm feeling shamed and so break it down like what do you want?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think for anybody who has any communication style to just take a moment and ask yourself, what do we want?
[SPEAKER_00]: How can I express that?
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's a me thing I can say what I need.
[SPEAKER_00]: How do we get people to truly state their needs?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because in the scenario that we just gave,
[SPEAKER_02]: The need is not they want to communicate more.
[SPEAKER_02]: What I'm hearing is there's an underlining need of I need to feel more secure in this relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I don't think people come out and say that instead of they say something very trivial.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wish we talked more.
[SPEAKER_02]: So how do we get people there?
[SPEAKER_02]: Communicate their needs.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, so I give my clients from a nonviolent communication has a list of feelings and needs on their website and it's a good place to look because the charts you look through the charts and you start to really feel into it and the truth is that our thoughts
[SPEAKER_00]: and our feelings are very different, but we often confuse them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Our body really knows the feelings, and that's why non-verbal communication is so important, because often we'll say something that our body is something else.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's tightening up, and it's our, you know, our brow changes.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the first place to do is check your body, like when
[SPEAKER_00]: This is happening what's happening in your body because a lot of people really don't know how to name anything So I'll always have clients just just goes tightening in my chest when I feel anxious I'm shortness of breath.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm clenching my fists my jaw tightens like they can start to understand the trigger points and their body to help them now articulate a feeling
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you can, I mean, there are many different sources for feelings, but it's good to get charts and that list feelings and leads.
[SPEAKER_00]: So as you can have a bigger vocabulary and a feeling is always connected to a need.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're right, like if somebody's not getting texted enough, they're you're feeling insecure.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're feeling a need for connection, a feeling a need for to be closer to that person.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's vulnerable because maybe that person doesn't want the same level of connection that you do.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I couldn't name any of this years ago, but with the boyfriend who wanted me to sleep over, I said you know, in this relationship, we both have to honor each other's needs.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I can't stay in this relationship if we're not going to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just had a need for sleep.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't really, it wasn't about you and I just need to know that you're okay with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and that you're not going to judge me or take it personally when I need to take care of myself.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that was a conversation I could never have had earlier.
[SPEAKER_00]: because I didn't know, I didn't even know that I needed sleep.
[SPEAKER_00]: I probably wouldn't have gone with sleep.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would have given up my sleep and then been to bitch the next day.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's knowing, I'll say, like, take some inventory of your own needs.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's one of the most important places to start.
[SPEAKER_00]: During the day, I have people go through the day saying, well, this feed me or dreaming.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that includes what you're putting in your mouth, what you're the phone calls you're taking, the meetings you're saying yes to anything that you do.
[SPEAKER_00]: You really have to start understanding if you're overdoing, overgiving, over extending, which is a big reason why people communicate poorly.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love this digging into the deeper need that's happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, is there ever a situation where two people's communication style just clashes like that they can't work through it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I think if so, all the relationships that don't work are usually with often with, I would say like a scorpion and a puppy or a scorpion and anybody.
[SPEAKER_00]: it's true.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's say there's a situation where one of my clients said the guy was moody.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was moody when he didn't get his way, which means he was controlling.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he always had to have his way, but because she couldn't articulate it, she would try to take care of his moots.
[SPEAKER_00]: and they can feel better.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we, that's the caretaker, the, you know, so that's the childhood crap that we have to work through all that trauma.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when you recognize, okay, I'm trying to fix somebody who's not fixable, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so yeah, in those situations, it's, it's really hard to be with somebody who's a scorpion.
[SPEAKER_00]: unless they become aware and they go for therapy themselves.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just get the hell out of that relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like the other one's like, you can kind of like, I'm thinking back to this example about like the calling or texting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that could have been like, like if you're kind of a skilled communicator, maybe that's something you could even take on if your partner's not there to be like, what is the deeper thing that's going on for you?
[SPEAKER_01]: And like try to like reframe it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like are there any other techniques like if your partner
[SPEAKER_01]: not in the same place as they are in terms of like communication like honing in on their communication skills without totally calling it like I mean that obviously that's like worst case scenario but like what can they do to try to make it work if they're just like not they're having more conflicting styles.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would just get really vulnerable, you know, and just say, I'm really sad when we can't talk.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to get close to you and I feel that if there's a wall up and is there a way that, you know, maybe, are you not feeling safe opening up to me?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, really just,
[SPEAKER_00]: get into the granular part of it because I think that when we get really vulnerable, we just take that guard down.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a place where somebody can open to.
[SPEAKER_00]: And usually what we do is we keep our guard up because we don't want to get hurt.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's a hard thing to do, but I think we have to take those risks.
[SPEAKER_00]: because otherwise two people just keep colliding and it can be a year down the road and you're just missing each other and you know going back to attachment styles like if you're dating and avoiding and that person doesn't feel comfortable opening up ever it's just never going to change it's not going to grow unless unless you're really open with that person and say that I can't continue unless you open up more.
[SPEAKER_00]: and maybe maybe we need to go to therapy together.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had a client who asked her boyfriend to go to therapy and or even just do a couple's weekend or do something and he's just said no, I'm not doing anything right?
[SPEAKER_00]: She walked away.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, but at least you like try it in that case.
[SPEAKER_00]: She tried, she tried.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like how you phrased it to about like I, like it came from like yourself, not like you were doing something wrong, like you brought the you in later to have it as a collaborative conversation, but it didn't start with you and I think I've read a lot of like communication books and like how to like phrase it and I think the starting with your own feelings is a really good way that makes people not react on the defensive.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: And here's a little tip about talking about your feelings.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you say I feel that or I feel like you are not stating a feeling you're stating a opinion.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I feel like you didn't come to dinner on time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's basically you, but just turned into an iced tea.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: and people do it all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, how did you feel about that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I felt that he really didn't treat me well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not really right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: But we most people talk like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're using the feel word.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so they think it's feelings.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we have to get interested.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so just catching yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that, though, because I mean, I never stop to think about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like I said, I've read a lot of books about this stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think you're right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like people
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, I'm not really doing that, instead of really getting to that deeper root of like, what is it that I'm feeling, I'm feeling insecure, I'm feeling like, I don't know, whatever you're feeling in that moment.
[SPEAKER_02]: So good rule of thumb is if you start a sentence with I feel, I need to end with a feeling.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I have definitely been guilty of this, I said stuff like, I feel like you suck at this and that's why I'm not a feeling.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's just bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's disgusting.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you had to leave people with like one tip of like how to be at a more effective can be the cater.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know this is a broad question because people are coming at all different levels, but like what would be like one kind of universal truth you would give?
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, the curiosity where it just keeps coming up for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I really ask questions.
[SPEAKER_00]: We make so many assumptions about people.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think if we just say, what do you mean by that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell me more, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Even if somebody says I need space, what if you found out what space meant?
[SPEAKER_00]: What could meant a week off because my mother's sick and I need to go to the hospital versus, this is kind of a breakup and I'm afraid to break up with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And what if people could just be honest and just like I really want to know because I'm going to move on if it's scenario number two If it's scenario number one, I'll be here waiting You know, and right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So we could just hate that phrase
[SPEAKER_00]: I know it's based.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nobody should ever use that.
[SPEAKER_02]: That was almost the demise of my relationship and getting COVID while my friends said, I need space and I packed up all my shit and I'll like, I'll give you all the space forever and ever.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's like, no, I meant for like an hour.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then that, okay, so you had a very strong reaction.
[SPEAKER_01]: What would that be if this, that would be the Scorpio?
[SPEAKER_02]: Will it coming out?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, really?
[SPEAKER_00]: What's I at the square?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you're being defensive.
[SPEAKER_00]: You were just shielding yourself.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll give you all the space you need.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a little passive aggressive.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it will sarcastic.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, some more knock-o-all.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't trying to be right.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was just like, that's trying.
[SPEAKER_02]: Fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll give you space.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll give you all the space in the world.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel that you were a douchebag.
[SPEAKER_01]: So not to turn on you, you know, but how did you get over that then?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like how did you move it from I did that to I know you did, but like how did you get over like not being the Kuala this circle stance?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think it goes back to with Sandy saying is leading with curiosity and asking more questions When he said I can get more space.
[SPEAKER_02]: I did not clarify.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was just letting you know
[SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't like, hold on, let me check what this is mean.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was more like, fuck you, you don't love me anymore.
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't want to be in this relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm out of here.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I packed up my stuff and I went back to my own apartment for the weekend.
[SPEAKER_02]: And during that weekend, I was like, hey, I never stopped asked, what does more space mean?
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I did call him not very like me because I'm so prideful.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that Sunday I called him and I was like, hey, I just really want to talk about this.
[SPEAKER_02]: I never clarified with space meant.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he was like, I used the wrong word because what I really want to say is we should really share in the responsibilities of this household.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like I'm putting in a lot to like taking care of you, but I just want it to be an equal partnership.
[SPEAKER_02]: different than wanting space, but that's how it manifested for him.
[SPEAKER_02]: But this is so typical, typically me, until this relationship, and Sandy, what you said about just like making up stories and stonewalling, that was me for the last like 39 years, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just,
[SPEAKER_02]: all of my relationships and it's like, well, fine, you know, if you didn't do that, then fine, I'm out of here.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is the first relationship where someone called me out was like, that's not how it works.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, that's not how the adult communication works.
[SPEAKER_02]: Helps that he went to therapy first.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I love that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what I mean.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, if you have a good partner who's going to call you up.
[SPEAKER_00]: in a kind way, like call you up to your higher self, not call you up like to your lowest self, which is what a lot of people do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that was one of the reasons I married my husband actually.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was one good thing that he did was he called me up in many ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: He wanted to really deal with stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, but then it all changed when she got married.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I was attracted to that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I realized that all my life, I was attracted to people who really clear.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we had a therapist for my children, once a play therapist.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she was so clear about her standards.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you came in, you had to take your shoes off.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not allowed in the therapy room.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to pay in advance.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like everything was laid out, it was very clear.
[SPEAKER_00]: So,
[SPEAKER_00]: I adapted all of those things as I got better at communication in my business as well, like my contract is clear.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a very clear first session with a client about what to expect, and here's how we're going to design our relationship together.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think every couple should do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's what you can expect from me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm probably going to screw up here.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, can I curse?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you can curse too.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, really just saying stuff and putting that there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we don't talk about stuff enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, even I asked a boyfriend once, how might you sabotage this relationship?
[SPEAKER_00]: We had been on like three days.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he was like, what are you talking about?
[SPEAKER_00]: I said, well, we all do stuff to sabotage.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'll tell you mine if you tell me you're so we can know what to look for.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is why communication is such an important topic and I'm so glad we were able to like devote an entire episode because I feel like over the last five years we I think one of our takeaways and pretty much every episode is like open communication like communicate more like that always comes up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the example that you both gave basically like with this like if people are not good communicators that's when things just dissolve because I could totally see the example like you said like if you stormed out somewhere why would someone like even question it if they're not trained to question it they're just going to like oh she's done.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm done.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like always like an ego thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think we should transition to take ways because this has been such an amazing conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think the one that keeps standing out for me, we always say this is the why, why, why, why, the three levels of why digging deeper.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think whatever someone says as kind of the the problem that's going on, how can you take it like two levels past that?
[SPEAKER_01]: to like what is the core thing that's happening for you and then for them and I love the other kind of big takeaway have is there's always three people in this relationship you them and the relationship and I think that's really important to like think about it as a team like we're not going head to head we're not trying to win this fight you know like we have the common goal of making this relationship with
[SPEAKER_01]: work and loving each other and being there for each other and how can you use conflicts and communication to relate that instead of you suck your you're not meeting my deities, whatever it may be.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I love this visual of the triangle because you've got you on one side, your partner on the other side and the goal, which is a common goal at the top, which is an uphill,
[SPEAKER_02]: So it means that it's still going to be a challenge, but you're both trying to walk uphill.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nobody's trying to go downhill from here.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think we forget that in relationships.
[SPEAKER_02]: You enter into relationships and dating because both people want it to work.
[SPEAKER_02]: Even if it's a first date, second date, before a date, everybody goes into communication and connecting with someone else, wanting it to work.
[SPEAKER_02]: So,
[SPEAKER_02]: it's good to constantly ping-pong back and forth between what what it is my partner wants step into their shoes and then how can I get my needs met as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: The other take away I have is I feel like we jump to conclusions so much but then the way we communicate with kids is so different because we just assume they don't know everything.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we overcommunicate, we're extremely empathetic and sympathetic to kids and we're caring and we're kind.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why don't we talk to adults in the same way?
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like I'm way more patient talking to kids because I'm like, obviously, they don't know what this means or what I'm going through.
[SPEAKER_02]: But we should approach relationships in the same way.
[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, they do not know what's going
[SPEAKER_02]: and they're not psychic and they cannot read your mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think mind reading ego and pride are the demise of relationships.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's another demise triangle.
[SPEAKER_01]: You guys have to say that three pillars of ruining your relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: ego pride and then mind reading at the top.
[SPEAKER_00]: Another great analogy, I love the child analogy, and coming in actually as a child into a relationship, bringing that sense of play and openness is so important, but also looking at other people in a dating situation as if they're from another planet.
[SPEAKER_00]: And just so I know nothing about this planet.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm coming in and I'm so curious to know everything, but I'm not going to sue anything because I know nothing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think coming in with that beginner's mind of like, here I am on a planet.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know nothing about.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that's so important because I think a lot of times, too, with communication, we take the past, whether that's our upbringing, whether that's a past relationship, like, oh, it's happening again, but you don't know if it really is happening again because it's a new person.
[SPEAKER_02]: just everything in life.
[SPEAKER_02]: It'll help us with everything in life.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just stay curious.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, Sandy, for being such a wonderful guest and thanks for having us on your podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: We had such a lovely discussion.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't wait for people to take your quiz because ultimately what I would love to do, either for a follow-up episode or bring you in for one of our events.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's talk about if you are
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you do?
[SPEAKER_02]: What are the things that you need to be working on as a puppy versus as a lionest, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because everyone's it's going to be different.
[SPEAKER_02]: Everybody's strategy to become better communicators.
[SPEAKER_02]: But thank you for I feel like I am a one hour better communicator as a result of this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for sure, for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm never afraid from using.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is a takeaway for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to give credit to one of my guests, Russell and Johnson, for helping me with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I always knew that it was a judgment, but I didn't pinpoint it to the like and that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's such, it's like, whoa, that's so easy to catch.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you so much, Sandy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know we gave your bio earlier, but like, if people want to like find you, what's kind of like a few ways that they can search you on the internet, the interwebs.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm in a lot of places on the interwebs that probably the best places my website last first date.com and you can join my Facebook group your last first date.
[SPEAKER_00]: Those are probably the two best.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you haven't done so yet, subscribe to the psychology of relationships today so you don't miss an episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bye!