[SPEAKER_01]: you've just proven to me, the dogs run away, they see something very excited, they're off leash.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, just call them back and then they ignore you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the problem isn't the overstimulation, that's the trigger, the problem and the reason why you're not successful is the recall.
[SPEAKER_01]: Your skill sets are not good enough for that particular scenario, which is very common.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going on everybody, welcome to the podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hands down from start to finish.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is going to help you guys 100% I wouldn't put it out if that wasn't true.
[SPEAKER_01]: These guys are dealing with what a lot of you guys are dealing with.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so a lot of people with the frustration, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So these guys have hired at least three trainers, professionally.
[SPEAKER_01]: They've spent, they say it in this, they spent so much money.
[SPEAKER_01]: and they're still struggling.
[SPEAKER_01]: The reason why people are still struggling is the middle part.
[SPEAKER_01]: The middle part is really important.
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people try to go A to Z and these guys are dealing with reactivity.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're dealing with getting over stimulating people come over and jumping and getting excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: Things that you guys are dealing with.
[SPEAKER_01]: Your dog gets overly stimulating when people come over.
[SPEAKER_01]: Your dog gets excited when people come over.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's embarrassing, they're jumping, they're barking.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know what to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: All these things are because of the same reason.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, I don't know if it's because I've just studied it and I've obsessed over it for so long why I can kind of point out these things differently than others or maybe it's just the way I'm presenting it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: But many dog trainers miss this and then therefore the dog owners are stuck where these guys are they've trained They spend a lot of money.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're committed, but they're not getting the results that they need To either stop your dog from reacting or pulling or whatever, and that's what this whole thing is about is that missing peace
[SPEAKER_01]: So enjoy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Enjoy guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know it's going to be helpful for you for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for listening.
[SPEAKER_01]: And make sure you subscribe to whatever you're listening to this on on podcast because we put we put episodes out like this weekly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you guys for listening.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll talk to you in the next one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Peace out.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is me too.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have two Australian Shepherd Puffy's Maple on Moose.
[SPEAKER_00]: They are nine months old
[SPEAKER_00]: have had them since they're eight weeks old and they're amazing dogs, but most are like biggest difficulty right now is maple's reactivity and it kind of started like once really wants they could bark probably and we did all of the socialization exposure things.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and like they were around other dogs all the time when they were little walking like perfectly by dogs, not even noticing them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then it, yeah, play dates, all the things.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was kind of like whatever the, um, you know, whatever the time is when they start to like recognize or like notice the world around them, I guess.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: other dogs started.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not to like humans or cars or really anything like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really just other dogs.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's interesting because once she is like like she's plays great with other dogs when we have play dates or once she can like get close to the other dogs or touch them or be in the same house as them or whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's totally fine and
[SPEAKER_00]: taking her on walks is pretty miserable.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it is so unfortunate because we want to give these dogs like the best life possible.
[SPEAKER_00]: We want to take them everywhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we've seen Australian shepherds out and about in restaurants sitting on padios that do great.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when people tell us it's a breed issue, that's pretty frustrating.
[SPEAKER_00]: They say it's just all these are vocal, which we know, yes, they're more vocal than other dogs, but we know it should still be possible to take around walks in the neighborhood without having a full meltdown.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we have spent like an embarrassing amount of money on trainers.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have had all the different methods from throwing treats on the ground to they did like a two week training camp that trained them on the e-colors and prong colors and
[SPEAKER_00]: That was probably the most effective, but they got really, she just, there wasn't really reactivity when she was at that camp, because I think she got so used to all the other dogs around her quickly, which is what happens like on play dates, and so those trainers didn't really see her reactivity at all while she was at that camp, but then the second we were about
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we've been, we kind of just really want to choose one method to go with because I feel like it's confusing for us and the pups trying all the different methods and the prong collar with the trainers from that camp to us is.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just to like really pop them with the prong collar if she starts being reactive to other dogs, but that ends up looking like really, really aggressive and that's also embarrassing to do when you're around the neighborhood and it looks like, you know, you're abusing your dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: The E collar has been effective on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Other things, so we're really grateful for the e-colour.
[SPEAKER_00]: We take them to our farm a lot and do off-leaf walks and it's their favorite place in the world and the e-colour's been really good for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And let's see what else.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when you, when you can I just ask a question quick, when you do the corrections on the prawn collar and stuff like say, and assuming maple is the female, that's the most reactive one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when maple is reacting on the leash and you correct with the prawn collar, does it not?
[SPEAKER_01]: Does it not disengage her or disrupt her at all?
[SPEAKER_01]: Does she bark through that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes we feel like it even enhances the bark, because you hear like the... Well, it just changes the sound of the bark.
[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, if you pop or like a mid-bark, but yeah, it's a case point.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, if you feel like it kind of just depends on the day, but it doesn't usually tend to like halt the bark by any stretch, so she'll continue to bark through it.
[SPEAKER_02]: like gets her going more like a few poppers, she'll like she's like, oh, now I'm fired up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and the pops with the prom color, like if she is focused on a squirrel or something else, it works for something small like that, but with the barking at other dogs, it's really just once she can't see the other dog anymore is when it finally stops.
[SPEAKER_01]: okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm serious.
[SPEAKER_00]: No worries.
[SPEAKER_00]: Everyone says like you have to find the root of the reactivity and I would love to discover that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if it is like excitement as she wants to go play with the other dogs, if it's aggression, is it because she wants to protect me as a corner?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've done tons of like separate separation, separate training.
[SPEAKER_00]: They sleep in separate canals.
[SPEAKER_00]: We haven't seen any sign of like, liter-made anxiety or separation.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've got the two of them because we love the fact that they can play with each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: They get each other's energy out all day long.
[SPEAKER_00]: They love each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: They whenever we're just having them out in the kitchen, they'll curl off next to each other, but then they also play.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it makes us feel better if we have to leave them at home that they have each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: We still leave them in kennels at night when we sleep.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're in separate kennels and then if we leave throughout the day, they're in kennels.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we don't leave them out and about in the house.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've been experimenting that a little bit like if we're just in the yard and they've been really great.
[SPEAKER_00]: So some day our whole our hope is to be able to leave them out in the house, but right now they're still in kennels.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the big, the big thing is the reactivity on the leash.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think and it's not only on the leash, it'll be like if she sees a dog walk by and she's in the front yard or if we're in the car and she sees a dog or even if she sees a dog on the TV.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would say there's been yeah, the TV is actually crazy, but
[SPEAKER_02]: There's kind of been stages, like at first, if she wasn't, so we have a fully fancy backyard, and if she was out in the backyard, just going to the bathroom or whatever, and like hurt in the ways from a neighbor or there's some construction going on near us, like, if she, even if she couldn't see it, if she just like heard something at first, that would sort of set her off.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's gotten a lot better, and now it's sort of just like the primarily the dogs,
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, but the case point, not just on the leash.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like if she sees him, she'll, you know, she'll let him know she's there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And And then the TV thing is crazy too.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like mainly if she sees some sort of animal on television, like we were, I don't know if you watch
[SPEAKER_02]: the Yellowstone series, but there's horses all over that show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if she sees a horse on the TV, she goes bananas.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's just like her seeing these other animals mainly dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's the main thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then like that would be number one is maple's reactivity.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then just number two, something we want to work on is just both of them, but mainly maple jumping up on people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so let's talk about the reactivity first.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you, okay, so it's to me what you said was, and this is how I'm taking this is, when you correct her when she's reactive, the success of the correction is predicated off of the distraction.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you say, if it's squirrels or chipmunks
[SPEAKER_01]: Smaller distractions, she disengages and it works, bigger distractions, it doesn't work, and, of course, we could, yeah, you could say it amplifies it, but it also just like change changes her barking, so it might sound like it's amplifying it, but really it just doesn't even affect her.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, and it could be both.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't really know, but when you're going through the process in which you're working on reactivity at nine months, it's part of part of it isn't I mean, there's there's kind of like this middle ground road.
[SPEAKER_01]: where we want to correct it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We want to reward what we want, but then there's also this, there's a lot more that like the middle area where we have to have the skill sets to be able to tell the dog what we want them to do alternatively.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we have to sometimes manage
[SPEAKER_01]: situations and environments to help the dog be less reactive.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's this it's not as I don't think it's as binary, especially at this age at nine months.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it's as binary as maybe you guys are applying it, meaning like all the corrections won't work and the food won't work and there's a lot of like in-between stuff and mainly the the biggest in-between stuff is your handling.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you go out and She starts to build she starts to load she locks on and bang she starts reacting There's all these steps before That you have to do in order for the correction to be successful likely It's kind of like you know flying to plane.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like oh, you just take off It's like yeah, but what about the stuff before that?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's not it's not you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of stuff checklists that you have to do before that
[SPEAKER_01]: So, and then again, like, even with the corrections, there's kind of the, this, with you when you're correcting a dog, there's also a lot of nuances to that and rewarding a dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when you're correcting a dog for something like this, you have to make sure that the prank caller is fit properly, you have to make sure that it's being, the timing is being applied at the right time, and then same thing with the reward-based systems, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so there's a lot of, to me, what it sounds like, just to give you probably the missing piece before we dive into how to actually fix it is it sounds to me like the missing piece is is the middle ground stuff like the handling and like teaching you guys how to handle through these situations because it kind of sounds like oh we go out when she reacts we correct her if she's overstimulated it doesn't work.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then that's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're frustrated.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's, and it's not your fault because there's again, like, you should be, and I don't know if you were, you weren't, but regardless, if you were trained on this, or you weren't, you're, you're probably not doing it right where you have to, there's a lot of been between stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: So how is your basics as far as heal go, like, how is your basics as far as heal, leave it and just your leash control in general, would you say?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I mentioned earlier, we've had a few different trainers at this point and some of them were sort of trying to accomplish different things, but all that is to say, we've been sort of trained ourselves by, I would say, really three of them.
[SPEAKER_02]: But again, in different settings.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so,
[SPEAKER_00]: know as well we have been trained on it right well instead of he'll we say here oh well there goes a two different commands though right I don't know some people use them in different ways when you say he'll do me like walking on a leash right next to us or do you might come here yeah yeah yeah we we've used like close by yeah they have we we used to come in close by and they're pretty good about that um
[SPEAKER_02]: here and their recall, they're pretty good about leave it.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're actually pretty good at it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, leave it and drop it.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're really good at it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But walking on a leash, maple definitely pulls.
[SPEAKER_00]: Moose is pretty good at not pulling.
[SPEAKER_00]: We we started off trying to have them walk like right on our left, right next to us.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we had a trainer tell us like,
[SPEAKER_00]: don't be so rigid about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like as long as they're not pulling it, it's okay wherever they walk.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we haven't been as strict on making them stay like right next to us.
[SPEAKER_00]: So like usually the start of walks maple will be really pulling.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then like by half or through the walk, I guess you just get tired.
[SPEAKER_00]: We do like multiple pops.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's something
[SPEAKER_00]: on the least, like loosen it up and then do the quick pops, and that is definitely helped, but it's not like right on our left side.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I guess to answer your regional question, like the dogs have had extensive training in the basics.
[SPEAKER_02]: Some of the commands you mentioned in
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we've also been trained by a couple different folks.
[SPEAKER_02]: One was really just focused on loosely swatching or walking with us.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the other was the like the prom collars and e-colour trainers.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they were sort of to your point about what to do, sort of during the build and before the dog is triggered.
[SPEAKER_02]: They kind of gave us a session on if you notice the dog
[SPEAKER_02]: basically just start the corrections early, right, instead of waiting until they start barking.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we've had some training around both of those things.
[SPEAKER_02]: The dogs have had plenty around the basics, and we've had some around walking.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because that's that's kind of step one.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when a dog starts to spiral and react, a lot of it is anticipation, frustration, excitement.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like you said, it's it's not like you're dealing with an aggressive dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're dealing with a dog that just gets overly stimulated in Aussies are like you said, they're vocal, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like they they do vocalize the
[SPEAKER_01]: 10 to get like they have a short little fuse like they go really fast in their head So they go from zero to 100 quick like you said and Yeah, I would agree with that for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's been my experience with them.
[SPEAKER_01]: They they get like They get ramped up real quick and so it's so my the reason why I'm asking is you know It's something to consider for sure is really auditing your heel work and your heel just to Clarify again because I know we talk about a couple different things is just asking the dog to walk nicely
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, whenever somebody says, my dog is doing something that I don't want, I always just say, what do you want your dog to do alternatively?
[SPEAKER_01]: Outside of stop barking, stop pulling, stop ignoring, like, that's obvious, but I always say, what do you want your dog to do alternatively?
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's really a lot of the times the missing piece.
[SPEAKER_01]: to what you should be working on right go what's missing here so it's okay Well when we go out maple freaks out at whatever It's like what do you want her to do alternatively besides stop?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like okay while I wanted to walk nicely and And not bark.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those are actually two commands.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those are heel and leave it
[SPEAKER_01]: So, that's why I always ask, okay, so your dog is doing something you don't want, what are the exercises and skills, then we would ask the dog to do alternatively, what's, you know, like it's same thing with humans, like they're doing something bad, are they doing something wrong, even better?
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, chill me here to do it right then.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I'm doing it wrong, how do I do it right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's, there is a, especially with a nine-month-old dog,
[SPEAKER_01]: They're just being juvenile, they're being voiced rest, they're being like, oh, just kind of in their own.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not nothing, there's nothing really behind it, they're just like a kid at a candy store.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're just excited, and so again, it's like same thing with kids at a candy store, if you will, where's your manners, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, okay, what do you want them to do alternatively?
[SPEAKER_01]: Not be excited, that's not going to happen, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a, it's a young Aussie out, and they see another dog, it's going to be unlikely that they're going to
[SPEAKER_01]: kind of one for sound, they're excited, stimulated, frustrated, and so so those are things that consider, we don't have to dive into those in depth because you understand them, but it's something to really audit in your training catalog.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, okay, we want maple to instead of react, we wanted to walk nice and ignore the other dog or even better yet,
[SPEAKER_01]: And those are three different commands, and you can achieve that with those three different commands.
[SPEAKER_01]: The only time that you can't achieve that with a dog is if there's like a deep rooted genetic disposition that is really working against you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or you just obedience or skills are going to be overridden by the dog's natural.
[SPEAKER_01]: And typically it's like a protective instinct, which, in my opinion, from what you're dealing with with a nine-month-old dog, it's not really what you're dealing with.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, something you consider, you're out for a walk.
[SPEAKER_01]: She sees another dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: You say focus, the dog looks at you.
[SPEAKER_01]: You say heal, the dog can't walk away from you, in the dog can't lunge.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then if the dog does disengage off your focus and then look at the other dog, you have a leave it command, and then the dog looks back at you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I always just tell people, no matter what you're dealing with or what you want to get rid of, you really have to audit the skill sets you want them to do alternatively.
[SPEAKER_01]: you're essentially just kind of shooting the wind because you're like, I just want my dog to stop being a dog, really.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, well, you need to, we can't just do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, the dog is acting a certain way.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we have to have these alternative things.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, just like with human behavior, we can't just say, don't get excited or don't eat or don't throw or don't yell.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, it's don't talk.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's how do you do it the right way?
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's how to do it, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
[SPEAKER_01]: That's one thing I would say.
[SPEAKER_01]: Biggest, I mean, that's the lowest hanging fruit, but it could be a big big piece into what you're doing because if you don't have those communication skills, then again, you're kind of just hoping for the best and just, well, I just wanted to stop.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, okay, well, you know, that's...
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, it does heal like walk nicely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Does that you do usually like that to be like right on your left or on your right or is it just like walking nicely without pulling
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, it's a good question.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's subjective.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you said earlier, you know, you've worked with different trainers.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you kind of understand how subjective it can be.
[SPEAKER_01]: But for me and typically, generally speaking, I'm across the board heel is the dog walking at your heels like on a loose leash typically.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, if you're dealing with a dog that's lunging, barking, reacting, pulling, specifically pulling, the heel command, so there's two things to this.
[SPEAKER_01]: The first thing is, is we give the dog an alternative thing to do, so we kind of empower them to say, hey, I want you to do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then I think the bigger thing out of the two is we have the ability to fairly correct the
[SPEAKER_01]: that they're choosing not to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, if you tell your dog to heal, when you're around another dog and they know heal well, instead of just correcting them, because that could be some of the reason why your dogs are not responding to the leash correction and or kind of fighting through it is because the correction is coming two things.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's coming at the wrong time because you shouldn't be only correcting when the dog is in the act, you should be correcting moments before the dog hits that
[SPEAKER_01]: state of mind because once they're in the act it's kind of like putting out a fire with a little squirt gun.
[SPEAKER_01]: You should be putting out the fire when you see smoke, smell smoke, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then but again alternatively it also gives you a fair opportunity to correct the dog because to your point if we correct the dog and they don't understand why they're being punished.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is like the whole conversation of if you correct the dog it can make things worse to your like you said or it can
[SPEAKER_01]: that kind of do bad dog training, which essentially would mean that dog has no idea why they're getting that pressure or that accountability or that correction.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't know why it's happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they're just getting more agitated and you're revving the dog up more.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for an example, if you say leave it and your dog knows leave it well and you've worked on it for weeks, months, etc.
[SPEAKER_01]: The dog knows they have to disengage or the dog knows they have to be in a heel position and they break it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You've trained so much, and they know that when they get corrected, in order to stop the pressure or understand the correction fairly, they just need to get back into position, where if a dog doesn't know the behavior or the skill, and then we're just correcting them for doing something bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: sometimes the dog can get conflicted with that because they don't understand where to put that information they're like what the heck's going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, but there's a lot of variances and like contextual stuff with that, but that I mean that's just low hanging fruit.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yes, if you go out and you really look at your situation,
[SPEAKER_01]: the dog that's reacting on the end of the leash you could say they're lunging they're pulling and they're barking and they're disengaging completely like you might as well just like not exist so again there's three skill sets that counter every single one of those things walk nicely quit the like stop what you're doing disengage which is leave it and then focus or look which is look at me okay yeah
[SPEAKER_02]: We've taught leave it and watch me and close by and close by and feel bringing at some point for a while.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've kind of gotten away from a bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think we should go back to that because it tells of exactly where we want them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, just something to consider.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I was just, again, this is like a little hit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's just low hanging fruit to start with.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, I don't want my dog to do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I would just, as a general practitioner with, you know, years of experience with dogs, I would just say, like, generally speaking, okay, what do you want your dog to do then?
[SPEAKER_01]: What's, you know, it's like, well, and it's always like this million dog question, it's like, well, I want the stop barking or stop lunging, it's like, yeah, I put it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You've got to teach them what to do right.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you just kept telling a kid that they can't do something without telling them what they need to be doing alternatively, yelling, screaming, hitting, throwing.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're just constantly like, that's bad, that's bad, that's bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you're not teaching them what the proper way is.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're probably just going to end up putting out a fire, which is what you guys are doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: The dog reacts, you go, oh crap, it's stressful, you turn around, you go the other way, you know, at the end of it, you're frustrated, you're like, man, that sucked, this sucks, I hate this.
[SPEAKER_01]: When, yeah, and that's because, you know, again, if a kid just throwing a ball at a other kid and you just say, that's bad, that's bad, but you're not teaching them, like, what to do,
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be difficult for them to go, oh, this is, oh, so the ball is for outside and it's for a baseball, you know, what I mean, it's it's you got to be able to like explain to them and again, I'm I'm not saying that If you had a well, if you had a better understanding of these things, it definitely would be helpful hands down, but I'm not saying that that's the secret of stopping everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: You just say, look, focus, leave it and your dog is a perfect angel.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying
[SPEAKER_01]: If you don't have those things, you will not be successful, no matter what you do.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So think about... As you're saying those commands, are you also popping the prom collar, or are you stemming on the e-collar, or is it a harness?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what is your preferred, like, leash collar method?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, good question.
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, the kind of the beauty of all of this is if the dog breaks the behavior that they know, he'll leave it focused, then you have a fair chance to correct them versus just trying to correct them for doing the bad thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the answer for the equipment is really predicated off of the dog in the training experience, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So harness is typically, I mean, they're really invented for dogs to pull harder and faster.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we really don't correct with those because they're intended to, like, this counterintuitive.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're for the opposite of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't have any, but what we call action, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's no action, it's just a stagnant piece of equipment that was literally invented for the dog to pull, safer, so it's really, it's literally developed for a dog to do their own thing and be independent, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So it doesn't involve you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I wouldn't do harness, but again, like if you guys already have experience with the Prunk Hall or the E-Color, those are great tools to use, but again, I just want to really drive home that when you go out with your dog and maple starts to fly up the hinges.
[SPEAKER_01]: instead of just when she gets to that point, correctener and, you know, kind of thrown fire on fire, it would be nice to, and this is what you're missing, is the handling portion and kind of the timing portion.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for an example, I'd go out with maple.
[SPEAKER_01]: She'd be on my left side.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd have food.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd have, you know, for an example, a prawn collar on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, got my leash.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm out for a heel.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm healing her.
[SPEAKER_01]: And okay, we see another dog or we see another person with a dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whatever tickles her fancy there and how she gets worked up, first thing I do is I'm kind of watching her, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So if she, her ears perk up, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And you could just tell she's lazered in like a gimbal, like, right onto that, that thing, that target, that trigger, I'm not.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what a lot of dog owners do, they make a mistake of immediately start reassuring the dog that everything is okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not a good thing to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they wait and they look at the dog and tell there's a problem, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, it's kind of like you start in to see smoke in the house, but you're just waiting for it to go into flames for some reason, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's a huge mistake.
[SPEAKER_01]: in a dog that has a history of being reactive.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not talking about just your average dog that's looking at another dog and's like, hey, what's up?
[SPEAKER_01]: And past is neutrally.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm talking about a nine month old maple that is historically consistently pretty reactive every time she sees the trigger X.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when I go out for a walk, boom, ears perk up, she's lazered in.
[SPEAKER_01]: What I'm doing at that point is now I'm starting my exercises.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm starting my dismantlement, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like any other training in the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mechanic, doctor, whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, here's what happens when this happens, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: We have some sort of reaction that we do to start to dismantle what's happening right here before we're spiraling.
[SPEAKER_01]: So first thing I would do,
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say it may believe it because she's locked in and she goes nope, correction.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, if that didn't work, I'm gonna do an inside turn with my left leg and I'm gonna cut around to go the other way for about five seconds.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm kind of taking the taking the pot of water off the heat for a minute before it boils over.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm letting the dog cool down for five seconds, and I'm coming back and I'm re-adressing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes that's what you have to do with a dog that really goes zero to a hundred, because you just have to, it's like getting into a hot tub, you sometimes you just can't go all the way in, you just have to like slowly enter your body in, so they can act with me.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the same thing with the dog that goes zero to a hundred.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't want to just jump in, it's very difficult.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the dog goes closer, you do an inside turn.
[SPEAKER_01]: You start to dis what I call dismantle.
[SPEAKER_01]: I talk about this in my leash reactivity course.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like a dismantlement exercise.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm taking my left leg and I'm turning inside to the dog and the dog's head is sliding with my leg and we're going the other way.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're just going the other way for five seconds just to give my dog a breather because they're
[SPEAKER_01]: So worked up, and then typically, you know, have an opportunity, then to kind of reconstruct my game plan here, depending on how worked up maple is.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then I might, I might stop, I might ask for a sit.
[SPEAKER_01]: So then I'm starting to ask the dog to do behaviors that they know well.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if I don't have a good heel, leave it or focus, I know my dog knows sit or down or something like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I might, I might square straight up with the dog,
[SPEAKER_01]: And I get so I'll give her a job.
[SPEAKER_01]: She puts her butt in the ground and I pay her.
[SPEAKER_01]: So here's a two.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's a two.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a split rail right here.
[SPEAKER_01]: A fork in the road if she's motivated enough and this is not really a question.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is just it's kind of dependent on the situation if she's motivated enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: To take food from you in that situation, you could just sit there in a good sit.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can pay her a little bit until the dog passes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Typically, with dogs like maple at this age, the other dog or the trigger or the person is a higher motivator than the food that you have, and that typically gets overridden.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she goes, yeah, screw the food get out of here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want the X.
[SPEAKER_01]: So then you go back into your dismantlement and your corrections and all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, again, your timing of which you start to dismantle is the difference between, again, like, oh my god, yeah, smoke, good thing we caught it versus like, you know, the house going up and flame.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's really important that you start to dismantle the build before the dog is reacting.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you want to be proactive instead of reactive to the reaction, if that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that does make sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, her response to food was kind of like exactly what she said.
[SPEAKER_00]: It used to be a higher drive with just like their cable.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now she could care less about the cable.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have those like rigby squeeze pouches.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she's more interested in those.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if she's locked in on a dog, she doesn't care about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And one question I had.
[SPEAKER_02]: Kate kind of I guess asks like your preferred method for corrections and it sounds like it just depends on the dog and what works, but would you advise against?
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess bringing on, you know, the walk like the example you just gave or using simultaneously multiple different kinds of corrections, so for example, we would bring.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we've definitely tried both individually and both at the same time, right, just to see what works.
[SPEAKER_02]: Would you advise us to sort of focus on a single method of correction at a time, or do you think it's okay to be working with both?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it's like salt and pepper, man.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you just, you, you use both.
[SPEAKER_01]: You add one, and then you add the other, and you kind of just go off of like what you're seeing and like what the result is.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't, so yeah, because they're two different tools for two different situations.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in the dog is gonna respond differently at different times.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why when dogs start to mature and they start to get more it's just like with human behavior Right like when kids are little they're interested in like, you know Barney and Peppa Pig and stuff like that and then I get all of their not right So when dogs mature it's the same thing in the beginning.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like oh food mom dad great awesome And then when they go oh there's other dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm more interested in this Then you so then the food becomes less valuable and that's normal over time
[SPEAKER_01]: But again, like, just as a side note to that, just trying different things.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, beef liver is something that typically a lot of people say that their dog isn't very food motivated until they have beef liver.
[SPEAKER_01]: So something to just think about.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then also, yes, I would be doing, okay, we have our e-collar, which is a different type of communication.
[SPEAKER_01]: It has a different spectrum.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's easier to use.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not as confrontational and your timing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is easier because you're not physically doing it right you're you're just remotely doing it so that has huge is abandoned huge Advantage is and then the prom collar also is kind of like a direct to consumer like you're plugging directly into the dog It's very Direct but it could be also confrontational to some dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: It could make it at all it also could push them overboard
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, like when they're getting really jacked up and then you just kind of fire them up with a correction and it could it could make it more intense as you know So yes, I would be I would be using both I would go out with both absolutely many dogs where both for for many different things
[SPEAKER_01]: The one thing I would it also mentioned too is while you're doing this, I would not have moose around or in the picture at all when you when you guys are working on maple's reaction.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we've noticed that and I mean most of their training especially from early days was all separate.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but it's interesting when we take moose on walks by himself, he's not reactive to other dogs almost at all, like he'll walk right by one and be kind, but if we have both of them and maple starts being reactive, then most will add on so we have noticed that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, make sense, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, you know, if your brother or sister thinks there's something crazy going on, then, you know, you kind of chime in.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, even though it's like, and you're looking at him like, dude, this isn't you.
[SPEAKER_01]: What are you doing?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, but it is what it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, there's many reasons like, you know, you need you guys need to focus on maple and what she's dealing with.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then also you don't want mousse working maple up or you don't want maple to get more worked up because mousse is there.
[SPEAKER_01]: So just, you know, consider those things as, as, you know, variables as you move through this, because it definitely plays a difference in that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, it's actually more about you guys in where you're attention and where your focus is for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so that's important too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just so you know, as you go out, you really want to be focusing on one dog and that's just that's just true for any dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't matter if you're dealing with reactivity or anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's work on one dog at a time and then you can bind them once your skill sets are good.
[SPEAKER_01]: and once you're training it's good, and then you can combine them.
[SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, so yeah, so so just going through, you know, like a basic E collar, prom collar scenario, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, we would have maple out.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'd put it on our left side.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'd say heel.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'd be walking.
[SPEAKER_01]: And throughout your walk, you would be doing different sets of heel and break.
[SPEAKER_01]: So your break is your release command.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, that's one distinction that I should say that a lot of trainers forget to teach, you know, just because they don't know, but when we're asking a dog to heal, it's unlikely that the dog is going to be able to heal for the entire walk, obviously, but also it's unfair, and it's really frustrating, because after half a mile of healing, the dog starts to pull and want to go here and then you're like,
[SPEAKER_01]: you know then you're correct in the dog and it's just it's just unfair so making sure that you're giving the dog a release command ever so often and the dog is it's probably like a 466 split 60 break 40 heel if you're working on certain things and to be honest with the train dog
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like 95% break and 5% heal.
[SPEAKER_01]: The only time you're actually asking that dog to heal is maybe when you're passing another person or another dog But for the most part the dog is just doing whatever they want because when you ask the dog to do a behavior They're sucked up to you and they're perfect right like that's like a level three fully trained dog
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's the other thing too is a lot of people like when I'm telling you this information You're gonna say, okay, we need to bring maple out and we need to work on a heel But you go out and let's say you're let's just say for an example you're walk around your neighborhood's a mile And you go, okay, let's heal and you try to heal the whole time and of course it's frustrating You're failing She's failing.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's getting frustrated.
[SPEAKER_01]: She wants to sniff and be a dog So now she's worked up.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's frustrated and so then when you see a dog it's kind of like the chamber's already loaded
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the other dog just kind of pulls the lever.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's important that when you guys are going out that you're doing, I don't know, like 15 to 30 second motions in work and then you're breaking heel and then break heel and then break.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're not just like frustrated and this loaded gun of frustration if you will coming out
[SPEAKER_01]: just make sure you give her that break and that release in between.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she has moments to decompress.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she has moments to sniff and be a dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that doesn't mean pull, like pulling.
[SPEAKER_00]: That just means like loosely walking and sniffing around.
[SPEAKER_01]: good question.
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, unfortunately, it's kind of like discretionary and subjective to you or the trainer, but for me, the break is kind of like, you're on recess, but it doesn't mean you can still be bad, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean that you can throw a rocket somebody.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know that's that sort of thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when I give it up a break, they can't pull bark, lunge, and be a jerk, but they don't have to
[SPEAKER_01]: But again, like the pulling is really subjective to the dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if you have a big mast if and you say break in your dog is like they're not necessarily pulling on purpose, but because they're so big.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you just have to kind of read the room a little bit with her.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the break is I kind of personally for me, I kind of follow the dog around a little bit just to make it as like six I set them up for success as much as I can.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or I'm like following them around.
[SPEAKER_01]: I kind of make the break their idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, yep, you can do this because I'm allowing you to do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't allow the dog to, like, pull me or linger, do anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anything that I wouldn't ever allow, but when I say break, they can be in the left, they can be on the right, they can sniff, they can go potty, they can be in front of me, they can be behind me, they can disengage for me, that sort of thing, they're on recess, but then when I say heal, all I really expect in that time is for the dog to be engaged with me and to stay on my heals.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you should be testing it too.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when you go out for your heel work, like a good way to test your heel, again, this is like 101, like everybody should be doing this with their dog, but a lot of people don't.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like, when you go out for a walk with your dog,
[SPEAKER_01]: And you basically allow them to do what they want, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of people, they allow their dog to pull them through the door and then down the driveway or whatever, and then the dog is just sniffing the whole time in front of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you have a level three dog, a well-trained dog, none of that is an issue, because at any point in time, you can see down, sit, heel, place, leave it, etc., and the dog is going to go bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, but when you have a dog that isn't skilled and is just doing all of these things because it's their idea and it's on their terms and they want to do it, that's an issue.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think there's a huge caveat there when I talk about this, I'm generally speaking,
[SPEAKER_01]: And how to behave on the leash, and we're just allowing them to do whatever they want on the leash.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then what happens is they complain when all of a sudden the dog starts to do stuff that the owner doesn't like.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for an example, think about it from the point of view of the dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: You let your dog out, and then literally you let your dog do whatever they want when they want on the leash.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like literally the whole walk and then all of a sudden you see another dog and you start raps rattleing up your your leash and your hand and go No, no, no, no, no, don't do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, and it's like where have you been?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know for for the last for the last you know 15 minutes or whatever Right, so so it's really important for you guys to just again This is what I was talking about like that middle area that you probably haven't been taught or you haven't been focusing on is when you bring your dog out for a walk
[SPEAKER_01]: you should be checking in with your dog every couple minutes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Make sure your dog still cares that you're on the leash.
[SPEAKER_01]: Make sure that when your dog is on their break and you say, okay, maple cum, peel.
[SPEAKER_01]: She goes, oh, okay, sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: versus, you know, flipping you off and doing what you want.
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, it's really like a lifestyle kind of choice with you in your dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because if you really think about it, it's like, okay, maple has an issue with, you know, reacting to other dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's rude, it's out of character, it's what we don't want.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all the things we don't want, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you look at the blueprint of that, if she's coming out in a walk,
[SPEAKER_01]: and she's doing everything she wants to do from the moment she drags you out the door or rushes out the door or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why on earth would she all of a sudden turn around and go, oh, when there's a distraction?
[SPEAKER_01]: Go, okay, now I'm going to engage with you and listen to everything you have to say, when literally this whole entire time, I've been doing everything I've wanted to do and in fact, there's a huge distraction and now I'm going to listen.
[SPEAKER_01]: and then people are like scratching their heads like I don't understand you know so I'm like if you have a reactive dog or a dog that's doing things that you don't like on the leash you have a responsibility to keep your dog more in check and more engaged with you you take checking in like you got to check in like hey pay attention are you still here we're still together are we still connected are you still gonna listen to me like those are all things you should be doing throughout the walk too
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That makes sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: Shouldn't just be a free for all, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, if you allow a free for all, then all of a sudden, somebody throws a baseball through the window, like, don't be surprised.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you've allowed it to escalate all this time and tell there's a problem that you care about.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's something to think about.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so in your experience, like, have you seen success,
[SPEAKER_00]: owners who work really hard with us on their dogs doing the commands and catching being proactive and doing dismantling that eventually some day and they are able to walk by dogs and be neutral or is it kind of the thing where you're always going to have to do the commands and dismantling?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a good question.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the answer is absolutely, but some times it's not predicated off of the training that you do sometimes it's, so what you're talking about is more personality based, so think about it like this is I have a dog that right now gets really excited, let's say, when they see a trigger, whatever that, you know, it's a dog or whatever, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So sometimes, that's just the dog's personality, that's genetics, so if you have a dog that gets like, I mean, same thing with people, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: You get a dog that just goes crazy when they see X.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you might have another Aussie that could care less.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is person, that's not training, that's personality, that's genetics.
[SPEAKER_01]: So sometimes people, you know, they get more lucky because it's just, you're not really going against the grain too much, where sometimes dogs just, they're just, I mean, you're at an age right now where you're going to see like the most,
[SPEAKER_01]: anarchy anyway.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're at the peak of what you're seeing, like you said, I mean, they started reacting basically when they learned how to bark.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, but I personally, if you judging with the breed and my experience with them and what you guys are telling me or the little I know, I just think that they they don't really know right from wrong and it's kind of throwing and it's just getting it's getting chaotic for everybody.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you can absolutely get to a point.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for an example, I know you said in the beginning, like, oh, I've seen Aussies, like laid down on a patio while people are having coffee.
[SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of that too is just the personality and sometimes even the age of the dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: So.
[SPEAKER_01]: So don't be so hard on yourself when you see dogs like that because it's not just the training that went in where you're like I've done all the training and like you said I've spent so much money and we're still not getting that dog that we want you also have to be fair to yourself and understand that genetics do matter like you know perfect example is like look at people who go to the gym right like
[SPEAKER_01]: you get, you know, a sumo in that goes to the gym once a year and they're gigantic, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And you get like, you know, somebody else that's, you know, doing all the things and they can't, it's the genetics does play a role.
[SPEAKER_01]: So training training for sure is your number one regulator on rather or not, you know, your walks are going to be good or bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then the second thing in line is genetics and personality of the dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: So meaning there's there is a chance I don't you don't know and I don't know because your dog still really adolescent.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is still a really good chance that if you go out for coffee for the next three years your dog's never going to just be like oh hey what's up there's a dog I don't care because if they are right they're just there people are like that too.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean I have I have one year old in a three year old and we you know go to different events and stuff and we see different personalities all the time of the same age
[SPEAKER_01]: of the same kids and it's crazy that the difference in personalities because of genetics.
[SPEAKER_01]: So so don't be so hard on yourself about that too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Meaning I don't want you to think like we're doing all the work we're doing all the training we're spending all the money.
[SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately that doesn't always mean a well-trained dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: It definitely, if you're doing the right things it does but I just want to like also throw that in there too that sometimes the dog's personality in genetics
[SPEAKER_01]: But it doesn't shift everything, but it does matter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because you can get, that's why you get certain service dogs that you get like a black lab in a freaking Walmart that literally is like moping around.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's genetics, that's, so they were trained, the training went in to like do tasks, but the personality and the chillness of that dog is genetics.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when you look at a dog like that, from your standpoint, you meant, man, look at all the training.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, it's actually just the way that dog was lightly born.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So remember that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's a good point.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, yeah, talking about the adolescents, we've already seen like we used to not even be able to take maple in the car at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like the second we got in the car should just bark nonstop.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now she doesn't do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So like,
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I think you're right.
[SPEAKER_00]: They are still babies.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, what's just a hardest part right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're dealing with like the hardest part.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why it seems so frustrating because it is that it's the hardest test that you're gonna have right now at this age.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and it's weird too, because they're like old enough, like they're doing a lot better on a lot of things.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're getting a lot bigger.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you feel like you should be able to run a couple miles with them, no problem.
[SPEAKER_02]: And at the end of the day, they're still, you know,
[SPEAKER_00]: in their angsty thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they're in a teenager phase.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they don't, they don't, that's what I was saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, that's one of my first thing was like, they don't know right from wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so you got to start really hammering in.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is how we want you to behave.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, they're basically being really rude, and you have to teach a manners.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so what would you say like our next step should be if we want to continue like checking in or working with you?
[SPEAKER_00]: would you say like we just start working on these like basic foundational commands and skills that you've talked about or is there like some like should we go through your neutral to reactivity workshop or what do you think?
[SPEAKER_01]: Good question.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, my reactivity course is definitely for anybody that I don't want reactive to neutral.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I mean, my reactivity course is definitely like something to chew on for anybody that's dealing with this because I go over everything from like I go over every piece of equipment.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is used for this for this reason.
[SPEAKER_01]: I go over the dismantlement in depth.
[SPEAKER_01]: I show it like on screen and everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that is helpful, but I think what you guys need is
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I think you need a trainer that can really be in front of you and coach you like you need a coach you don't need a trainer like I think you need somebody to teach you like okay your leg you see how your leg is here and needs to be here you see how it like you're talking like your correction was late like a lot of people again like you say I have the prong collar and then I look at it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I go it's fit wrong, it's size wrong, it's too big.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you go, oh man, and you go, I'm doing the correction.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like it's too hard, you know, so there's, that's a hard thing is with dog owners is just like anything else, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like I put the cheese in, I'm making this pizza, it's like it's the wrong cheese though.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like it's cheese, but it's the wrong one, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's always like these, these little tiny variables here that make or break.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a couple of things, like, you know, so that's what I would say is like if you feel comfortable with the trainer that you've already worked with that can coach you then I would revisit that.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you wanted me to look at the things that you're doing, it would be really easy for me to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are setting up like an online training program where you send like you send me footage and then I send you like what they call loom, which is like a just a screen recording of me reacting to your thing to tell you what to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you can also do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can kind of like do that with this program too.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if it's something that you were like, okay, I want to get coached on what I'm doing wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can do this again if you wanted to and then you can you could go out and fill me each other handling.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you can send me videos prior to our consult, like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I can actually review them in real time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And typically what we do is we face time, so I can show you like, okay, I'm opening up video one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's review.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I stop it and I go, okay, see this?
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, see your hand?
[SPEAKER_01]: Your two seconds to late here.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why this happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I did this with same exact situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: This lady had a reactive dog, blah, blah, blah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she sent me a video.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so she's behind her dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: She let her dog build and there was a dog walking on a path and she was off to the grass.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she's on paper.
[SPEAKER_01]: She was like, I corrected.
[SPEAKER_01]: I used the prawn collar to this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, yeah, but you put your dog in front of you.
[SPEAKER_01]: You let your dog load for 45 seconds until the dog got close enough and then the dog exploded.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she's like, oh, that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it is helpful for sure if it, if you feel like your resources or like you've spent on your resources locally and you want like outside perspective on reactivity, obviously, like that's what you're doing now.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you wanted to do it again with me, that would be the way to do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You send me over short little clips before our console.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'll go over you, I'll go over them with you in real time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, okay, because you're and New York, is that right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, got it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think, obviously we would love to work with you in person, but you're probably not coming to Nashville any time soon.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I typically do, I actually do go to Nashville quite a bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I do have a lot of clients there.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going, the first week in August, actually, we're going back.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, so that's something that we could, we could work out, um, I don't know if that's too far for you, but anyway.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, so that would be an option, but also, again, if you wanted to do that consulting thing, you could.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay, that's great.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, those, that's good to know the options.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll discuss and then let you know is the best way to email.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I was emailing back and forth the tailor is that the best person for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, I should help you with all that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But before we wrap it up, we can cover, I think you said the jump being really quick if you'd like.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that'd be great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so I'm assuming so let's just play it out really quick.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm assuming when they when they when they they're on leash or even off leash when people come over or when you see people on a walk They get excited and they they jump up on people and they scratch them and it's this whole thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're they're friendly, but it's annoying is that right or
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, if like today, I had a friend come in the house before we left to get coffee and they're just so excited to see her like literally jumping up to her eye level.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: On on her and like it hurts.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, scratching.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: the e-colors, like we keep them on them around the house.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I would say that again, especially moves, but that does work.
[SPEAKER_02]: It just sometimes by the time they've already, you know, they've already jumped.
[SPEAKER_02]: once at least, but by the time you can actually like make a correction.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like moves will tell him to set and he will, but he just is so excited.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can like see as he's sitting like his butt shaking.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's like, they do that all the wriggling.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Keep it forever.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maple, if you tell her to say, while she's jumping, she just doesn't.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and we've tried to do like kind of to your point about not letting them load or not letting them jump before you correct and try to correct before it happens.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like we have practice like bringing them to their bed.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like they listen to us when we say, go to your bed.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we tried knowing when somebody's coming over
[SPEAKER_02]: We try to do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes even have them on like a leash and keep them on their bed and reward that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's more like the unexpected visits that are the biggest issue.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so that would be, again, that would be your obedience to, so like the unexpected visitors, that would be the bed command or the place, like the sendaway.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's, I mean, I'm always going to like, that's what my reply is to a lot of that stuff is it's obedience.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also, again, so it's kind of like the instinctual part of a dog being excited and stimulated.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how they kind of wear that.
[SPEAKER_01]: they jump and they get excited or they whine or they spin or whatever and that's where obedience comes in.
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, like the objective here wouldn't be, I want to stop my dog from doing this because you're not going to be able to.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that's an instinctual.
[SPEAKER_01]: In voluntary response that the dog does, that's the response to getting excited, okay?
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, that's where your obedience comes in.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it would be down, place, stay, or off.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think the most, the most, the biggest command for you guys that has the most utility would be like the off command.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think like you're kind of already grasping that, where you come up with the leash, or even the e-collar, but the leash is a little bit more direct.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you come up with the leash when people come over, they jump up, you say, off you correct them, the minute that they're relaxed and they're cool, come and collective, you would then have that person give them the attention that they are craving.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then again, if it's somebody that's unexpected, so you have to really, again, zoom out and audit the situation here.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a high,
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a high level distraction and the dogs are off leash.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I just don't think that your dogs are prepared or have this skill sets to accomplish that task.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why you're failing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when there's levels two obedience, okay, so there's literally levels, and that's why you have like beginner intermediate advanced, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the same thing with like martial arts or something.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like you're not just going to go on the mat.
[SPEAKER_01]: Since you get to and do good against the black belt, nope, not going to happen, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's the same exact thing with dog training.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you have a dog that gets really stimulated and excited and they're off leash.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is a really, like, okay, you have to have a really good obedience.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you have to have a really good training in order to accomplish that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, it becomes very frustrating.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's dog owners are like, I don't understand.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not listening.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, yeah, but that is like, Yoda stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, you can do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: 100% you can do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you're not going to be able to do it unless you practice it religiously.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's where people again get frustrated is they they're like at level one and then they put their dog in a level three Situation or a test and they fail and then they get really frustrated and I'm like no, no You're going A to Z you need to you need to do you need to go A B C D e et cetera, you know
[SPEAKER_01]: So just be mindful of that, too, that there's the reason why you're probably failing is because that particular thing is a very hard thing to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're asking your dog to do something completely off-leash with a high distraction.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying you can't do it because you absolutely can.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying like, yeah, so that's where your e-colors come in.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it would be maple mousse, so they go to the door.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maple mousse come.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Boom.
[SPEAKER_01]: So then you'd say, well, they didn't come.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I would say, well, this has nothing to do with this overstimulation at the door.
[SPEAKER_01]: Your recall isn't good enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: You've just proven to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: The dogs run away.
[SPEAKER_01]: They see something very excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're off leash.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, just call them back and then they ignore you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the problem isn't the overstimulation.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the trigger.
[SPEAKER_01]: The problem and the reason why you're not successful is the is the recall.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That makes sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not a, how do I get in the stop this?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's your skill sets are not good enough for that particular scenario, which is very common.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's a hard thing to do unless you're like, no, no, no, my dogs are like, you know, level three Yoda, and that's a different scenario.
[SPEAKER_01]: But
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they usually, they would come to us, but then go right back to the person.
[SPEAKER_00]: So would it be like, come and then say, down, stay.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So to catch on there, that's like a sequence.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you are single-handedly.
[SPEAKER_01]: starting to break down the problem with skills.
[SPEAKER_01]: Come sit, stay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Go to the door.
[SPEAKER_01]: Come on in, come sit down.
[SPEAKER_01]: Your dogs are sitting there.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're looking.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're shaking, but they're not getting up because your sit stays so good.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's probably what you're, you know, that's where the void is likely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That makes sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's helpful.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So don't like, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's their steps.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's on leash, long line e-color, but but you have to work on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then here's the mistake.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to work on these things without them there.
[SPEAKER_01]: So don't don't try to work on recall and place and sit and stay when there's people there.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to practice it well before.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, don't just like try to enter the tour to France and learn how to write a bike at the same time you will fail 100% Like no chance of success.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like, oh, let's work on the recall when Jamie comes over or whatever It's like no, you need to be working on recall all the time so the dog goes, oh, I know what this is they get corrected They get rewarded they understand the picture they understand the sequence then once people start coming in and those distractions start coming about you've you've already
[SPEAKER_01]: I've shot this shot a hundred times already today.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm good.
[SPEAKER_01]: I understand what I need to do and that way when you correct them, they're like, oh shit, they come running back versus, you know, like, lay down or something like they need to know what to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you got to wrap it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's muscle memory.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, y'all, so good to chat with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, reach out to Taylor about doing this again or looking at her schedule when we come back in August.
[SPEAKER_01]: X, we fly into BNA all the time and we do different training and Taylor's family live in Franklin and stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're there, we're there, yeah, we're there quite a bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, so just reach out to her, if you want to do a combination of both two or whatever, but yeah, that sounds good and we'll go from there.
[SPEAKER_01]: See what happens.