[SPEAKER_01]: This is The Sales Grady Podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, I'm Jeb Blunt, bestselling author, fanatical prospecting objection, sales EQ and ink, and I'm here to help you open more doors, close bigger deals, and rock your commission check.
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome back to the sales gravy podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm your host Ashley Blunt and today we have Stephen Reisen with us.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's the founder in CEO of Star Results and the author of the book, Focus.
[SPEAKER_00]: So today we're going to talk quite a bit about your book focus and I want to
[SPEAKER_00]: dive in with the first question because you drop a really heavy truth bomb right out of the gate.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you argue that when sales teams underperform organizations almost always misdiagnose the problem by blaming the reps when it's actually a pure failure of leadership.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is that our default reaction and what are we missing?
[SPEAKER_02]: Great question because the fact is I know that I was a senior sales leader and the easiest thing to do is to blame the reps how the reps can sell or the reps aren't doing this or they aren't doing that and the reality is if they aren't then leadership needs to keep them on track that's the role of leadership.
[SPEAKER_02]: The fact is that leadership is to blame because they're not following standards, they're not keeping things on track with execution, so this book is written for sales managers, but I probably punch the VP of sales in this year old and I know it's quite a few times.
[SPEAKER_02]: And to me, it's a system issue.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very easy to blame the reps.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very easy to blame the frontline managers, but I talk about the system.
[SPEAKER_02]: creating these situations that we're all frustrated with and to be honest with you, it's taking me 23 years to figure out where the problem is.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, there's a lot of different leadership styles and the ones that I've always responded the best to is that when they were in that position where the team wasn't hitting the numbers, it was the leaders that would roll up their sleeves and work with our team to turn it around.
[SPEAKER_00]: I always work the best with.
[SPEAKER_00]: So definitely leadership is such a big role in the performance of the sales team and, you know, like, as you were mentioning, it's that level of accountability.
[SPEAKER_00]: So a conversation that I have with my team every week, because my team here at sales group helps drive the renewals and the continued relationships that we have with our clients.
[SPEAKER_00]: is, you know, what's the temperature of that relationship?
[SPEAKER_00]: How is it going?
[SPEAKER_00]: What are the challenges?
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's identify it early.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's go ahead and start talking about it now versus like reacting to whatever the challenge is.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's about being proactive and not letting things slip where I like to use the word drift.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's when we sort of let down our guard.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just have a boss who said, you know, sometimes having a bad quarter is not a bad thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because it forces you to look deeper.
[SPEAKER_02]: When things are always going, well, you think, okay, come by ya.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's just keep doing it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's pat people on the back and that doesn't always maximize performance.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not a bad thing to do, but there's other things shouldn't be dropping.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely, the space in my sales crew that I saw that the most like from other reps was actually an automotive and I'm sure this theme carries through in a lot of other spaces, but in automotive you'd have the reps that would sell 25, 30, 35 cars in a month.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they would disappear for two months and come back and say, wait, I don't have anything else right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't have any sales that are going on and then they had to go back through that mountain of like climbing back up to hit the number again.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I talk about it, it's about consistency on the certainly on the management side consistency and holding standards as opposed to, hey, we're doing great.
[SPEAKER_02]: We can hold back or we're doing lousy and we got to jump in.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know you mentioned roll up their sleeves.
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the things that I tried to hit managers with maybe over the head.
[SPEAKER_02]: is it's not their job to jump in and rescue.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's their job if there are people to be better, to develop them.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's about working alongside them, but it's about helping them improve, get better, because that's really the long-term focus of frontline sales leader.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I love that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think this is a great segue into my next question for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: You already kind of mentioned this about the drifting.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you've noted that sales performance, it doesn't shatter overnight instead of drifts.
[SPEAKER_00]: Walk us through what that gradual erosion looks like in a typical sales department.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I talk about whether it's execution or performance leaking.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's nothing dramatic happens.
[SPEAKER_02]: except small little, if you think of a faucet that's leaking.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, you know, let's say there's no basin and just dripping on the floor, eventually it floods the floor.
[SPEAKER_02]: So execution or performance rarely breaks in a single event.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's gradual over time.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is what it looks like.
[SPEAKER_02]: Coaching drops off the priorities because I believe coaching is the number one factor that drives sales performance.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that becomes optional.
[SPEAKER_02]: the manager stop inspecting whether they're looking at APIs or they're looking at deals and then they are stepping into deals.
[SPEAKER_02]: So when you start a deals happening, that's a sign that you've already have an execution problem and it's been going on for a period of time.
[SPEAKER_00]: How would you coach somebody if you started to notice that they're drifting?
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the things I believe in and it's not in the book but I think it's an important point is as a manager, you know, let's say you're a really good manager and you know you're with your reps 50% of the time you're out coaching.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've ten reps that mean you're out one day of month with each rep and you may be coaching on the phone and what have you.
[SPEAKER_02]: What you want to do is you want to create self coaches and self managers.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the example you give work
[SPEAKER_02]: if a performance is declining.
[SPEAKER_02]: My hope is and the training that we do or at least the thing that we do is to hold periodic countability meetings.
[SPEAKER_02]: So once it's not like three months and then all my god things aren't working well and it's not micro management that every day I used to have a boss who would you plan to see it and he did get up every day to see why it's not growing.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the example of micro management.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, let us work it.
[SPEAKER_02]: We all know that box right and they're always fun to laugh at but I had a president they're worth the president you dig it up every day anyways, so what you want to do is you want to have periodic reviews I believe monthly it depends on the industry I guess I'm in the speech for every week and I think oh my god you're spending too much time reviewing performance but my approach is that the rep comes prepared for those meetings and they know what their results are.
[SPEAKER_02]: They know how they're doing activity-wise, and they have a plan if they're at 100% how they're going to get to 110.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the rep is self-managing.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not the manager's job to do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: If the rep is not doing that, then the manager wants us to teach them that you need to stay on track of your own performance.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, things happen, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: There's always, I'm, you know, you miss that deal, you miss that deal, but it's really up to the rep.
[SPEAKER_02]: If I'm coaching them, I could help them, but what I want to see is they're critically thinking and knowing their
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, being an ownership and having that level of self-awareness to identify it, yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, and I have experienced, I was laughing because one of the sales roles that I've held, we had a morning and end of day call.
[SPEAKER_00]: Where everybody went over the status of every single deal in Limey, tell you about, probably 60 days into that role.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was so over the meeting's.
[SPEAKER_00]: And because I was like, I was one of those that self-managed, and I knew where I stood, I knew where I was in the sales cycle, I knew what else I needed to add to the pipeline, and it felt like such a drag on the day.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a drag on your time, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: I was very lucky of my career that I got from a little week quick enough and I was the youngest senior manager and I picked on HR.
[SPEAKER_02]: HR would come in and raise the topic.
[SPEAKER_02]: Should Fridays be bagel Fridays, donut Fridays, or muffin Fridays?
[SPEAKER_02]: And I used to get mad at them, I'd say, I don't care.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have a business to run.
[SPEAKER_02]: You decide what Fridays it is and I'd like it all evening, if not.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't care, but, you know, sometimes we be meeting to death, I mean, that is micro management at its core.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure there was high turnover, not just a new business, but you lose as you lose the top performers.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, oh my god, this is horrible.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I really believe in finding that tweet spot.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love the coaching approach that that is near and dear to me, so I was lucky at the very beginning of my career in sales to have a manager that about
[SPEAKER_00]: Six months into my sales roles is consistently hitting my numbers, my quota, and he came to me and said, so have you thought about what your career looks like in sales, where do you want to go?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we started talking about that in the options, and like the next six months he spent that time like developing me, and at the end of that six months is when I moved into my first sales management role.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I loved his leadership style, so like I tried to continue that into my own.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is what I believe works highly effectively.
[SPEAKER_02]: You've been start to pick up who your stars are, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And you want to make sure that deer you're helping them succeed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we've already started kind of talking about the Rockstar Rep.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we see this constantly.
[SPEAKER_00]: A Rockstar Rep gets promoted to manager.
[SPEAKER_00]: Major deal goes sideways.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're immediate instinctives to fly in and take over the meeting.
[SPEAKER_00]: Save the day.
[SPEAKER_00]: They want to be the hero.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is the hero manager actually
[SPEAKER_00]: an absolute anchor or a long-term revenue graph, like how is this a help?
[SPEAKER_00]: How is this a hindrance?
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you work with this type of manager?
[SPEAKER_02]: Your managers usually are your top reps who move into a management role, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And they're like nothing more than to close the deal.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a rush, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: We all love that rush.
[SPEAKER_02]: But as I think I say in the first chapter,
[SPEAKER_02]: that's not your job.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So why do they rescue?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's because they care in those cases.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not because they don't care.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, they love the rush, but rescue behavior.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not a commitment problem.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a standards problem.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's what you want to use.
[SPEAKER_02]: You want to hold your reps to certain standards.
[SPEAKER_02]: One that they can close to that they can do.
[SPEAKER_02]: Good discovery to read that they can do good prospecting, which I have my prospecting book here, and they're starting forcing stuff and jumping in, they're actually weakening the standards.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're saying it's okay to call me, all come there.
[SPEAKER_02]: So as much as it may save the day, it doesn't develop the rep on the long term.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a very short term behavior.
[SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes, you know, the rep may be happy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes they feel like, oh my god, even even take me into consideration.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, the hero, the Superman, it's not their job and it's a hard thing to shed.
[SPEAKER_02]: It really is because that's what you're successful, you know, let's say you're a new man, you're, that's probably what you feel you know best, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's what behavior that got to change.
[SPEAKER_00]: it's like the loss of control because when you're in that contributor role you have control and if you're running your sales process correctly you have control.
[SPEAKER_00]: So moving into that leadership role you are having to give away that control and you're also having to give away that trust to your team.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is such a hard transition.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean I felt that myself because I'm also deeply
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's horrible to think of.
[SPEAKER_02]: I lost.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I get it and it's a natural tendency as I say it's not because they don't care But the reality is you got to stop yourself from doing certain things and that's what the book tries to point out as we naturally Most managers even tenured managers will jump in because they they don't want to lose the quarter to deal But long-term that's not a good approach as a coach
[SPEAKER_00]: coaching.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you draw a sharp line in the stand between coaching the deal versus coaching the rep. Can you break that down for us?
[SPEAKER_02]: I get very passionate above.
[SPEAKER_02]: I tell you it's with you because many, and I don't want to pick, I come from the pharmaceutical industry.
[SPEAKER_02]: The deals are different.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's about prescribing behavior.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe there's a deal at the hospital level.
[SPEAKER_02]: but most saps companies I speak to and I ask the senior leader of the question, do your prime manager's coach and the answer is yes we do and let's see okay what do they coach and the first answer or the only answer sometimes is they coach deals and to me coaching deals is not coaching and I know it's terminology I call that performance management you're managing a performance issue
[SPEAKER_02]: We're coaching is developing the skills to close the deal, to get the deal to do discovery.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you're just so called coaching to deal and let's say, okay, it's coaching because you may ask some questions and give them their response, if you're just coaching to deal, you're not improving your capabilities and really coaching to be focused on improving capacity capabilities, getting the rep to be better.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I do draw a line at, that's really what's that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I get a little bit cool about that, but I find too many companies think they're coaching.
[SPEAKER_02]: And to me, they're, I don't believe they are.
[SPEAKER_02]: And let's say that they're wrong, but they need to be coaching capabilities.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's their job.
[SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate that you draw that line too because focusing on coaching the skills for the individual better prepares them for anything else that comes at them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you're having to specifically coach the deal, you're also slowing down that whole cycle for the deal itself.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like there's a lot more side conversations.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not moving along as quickly.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've mentioned this on a
[SPEAKER_00]: previous podcasts, we have people come to us and they're like, well, how do we increase the efficiency of the sales cycle?
[SPEAKER_00]: Some of that is the level of coaching for your reps. Have you trained them and coach them to handle the various scenarios in real time so they don't have to stop a meaning or stall something and it's that preparedness.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I appreciate that you draw that life.
[SPEAKER_02]: Preparedness to me is a standard.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's an expectation that if you're going into a discovery meeting, you've got your questions, don't deviate, you know, you can deviate from them, but you make sure that you're covering your bases.
[SPEAKER_02]: And when you're going into a presentation, if your manager's not asking you what's your goal today, what are you going to present?
[SPEAKER_02]: How are you going to present it?
[SPEAKER_02]: To me that there's a coaching component, but now you like what I understand is figure skating, and I'm sure you have coaches to help figure skate.
[SPEAKER_02]: do they sit in the locker room to coach you or do they stand by the bench or against the boards or maybe on the ice to watch?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, they're on the ice with me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had the pleasure of working with Oxana by wool.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was absolute pleasure working with her, but you know, she was on the ice with me.
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, I, you know, I mentioned earlier, I love leadership that will roll up their sleeves and they'll get in the trenches with me.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was doing the jumps with me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she was breaking them down and we were doing them stuff by stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that, that coaching style resonates with me deeply, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: With all the technology that we have, you know, you've got Salesforce, you've got MedBick, you've got this pick and that pick and whatever else.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not an anti-technology, but there is nothing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm an old-style manager.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's nothing to replace as being out in the field and observing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Observational origin to me is real coaching.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not sitting behind your laptop and having your discussion, that's not saying that's bad.
[SPEAKER_02]: But there's nothing left being out there
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: In an example of this in the observation, there was a jump that I was working on.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's actually my favorite jump to complete and skating.
[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the things we get scored on in competition is our skating skill.
[SPEAKER_00]: How accurately are we executing on this move.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, if you're sitting back like to your point in the bleachers of the stands, you're not able to sometimes identify as clearly which edge you're using to take off from, because yes, very technical.
[SPEAKER_00]: So in skating, some of the jumps are differentiated purely by the edge that you're taking off from.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, her being on the ice with me and the angle she was with, she stopped me as soon as I land to the jump and she said, which edge are you supposed to take off of?
[SPEAKER_00]: But it says the observations that make all the difference even in sales, going back and watching like, discover recessions that I've had with clients early call recordings, because what am I missing that I'm not seeing in the first pass?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or what am I missing that I'm not feeling in the moment?
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's very interesting because up until about four years ago there wasn't a client that did inside sales that I worked with.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I had a client and they explained this is what we do and then I trained them and then I realized I haven't covered how to coach inside sales people.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's applying the same principles, but if you don't listen to calls and you don't listen to calls with them to debrief, then you're not coaching.
[SPEAKER_00]: in sales and you know across the board for many other industries and professions we're watching the tech stacks grow just substantially faster now that we have AI.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't account for the human nuance.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it does catch a lot of it and it does help me increase the efficiency of my job.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was explaining to one of our colleagues earlier today.
[SPEAKER_00]: This like mad scientist board that I have put together for tracking some things.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the use of AI.
[SPEAKER_00]: But
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, even with the way that that is set up in as detailed as it is, it does not know the day-to-day nuance, there are things that I still have to manually input and observe for myself.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, I have a line, actually, I just produce an executive brief.
[SPEAKER_02]: We talk about technology creates visibility, but it doesn't create reliability of forecasting, and that comes down to coaching, understanding, and leadership discipline.
[SPEAKER_00]: a strip.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a very powerful statement and it's so true.
[SPEAKER_00]: So in the book, you lay out your three things framework.
[SPEAKER_00]: When a frontline manager is completely buried under internal meetings, corporate, minutia, and CRM updates, how do they use this framework to ruthlessly like simplify their day?
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're just talking about some of the efficiency.
[SPEAKER_00]: So how do we get there with your
[SPEAKER_02]: Great question.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love the word minutia.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes I use a French word, but I won't use it today.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the three things, just I'm going to give you some history on that.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was very lucky in my career where I started as a retail saleser up and in the pharmaceutical industry, that's kind of the lowest of the low, but that was fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had a retail background.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was happy to get a job.
[SPEAKER_02]: And in seven years, I ate seven different roles and ran in three divisions.
[SPEAKER_02]: But to be honest between our squirrels, I never knew anything about my next job.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what I would do is my simple form of the three things.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it asked myself from my team the question, what are the three things we need to do to be successful?
[SPEAKER_02]: And my belief is if we did those really well, we would be successful.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've coach many sales leaders and it's always starts with the three things because exactly as you described, managers get busy and they get busy with, I'm going to use the word Kaka.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's just so much stuff dumped on them so they equate leadership with being busy.
[SPEAKER_02]: the key is you have to focus on your priorities.
[SPEAKER_02]: Some people talk about, oh, we have a time issue.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's never a time issue.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a priority issue.
[SPEAKER_02]: But unless you've ironed out what are the three things you need to do to be successful.
[SPEAKER_02]: I call out the three things.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can talk about what I think is.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do a session for companies where we do strategy execution.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we always figure out the three things before we go anywhere else.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the three things could be,
[SPEAKER_02]: coaching, accountability, and execution.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, they don't have to be, although coaching I would put up there, regardless.
[SPEAKER_02]: So when you're busy, actually before you start to get busy, you want to block off your calendar to make sure that you're coaching.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because the first thing that dropped is always coaching your boss calls.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wrap calls to rescue a deal, marketing calls of meeting, all of a sudden you're dropping coaching.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the first thing is you need to know what your priorities are and make sure that you're scheduling around that that there's time blocked.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you preserve that time for the three things that are critical for success.
[SPEAKER_02]: I once coached this, he became national sales manager.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now he's a CEO of a biotech company.
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the smartest people I've ever coached.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember him say to me, Steven, you know, I don't feel like I'm doing a good job because I can keep up with my emails.
[SPEAKER_02]: My responses at the end of the year, nobody cares that you responded in five minutes if you don't make your numbers.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
[SPEAKER_02]: That is not your cry.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is not your priority.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've used that line so often.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really about we all blame time and time is not the, it's not the stider of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's what you allow in your calendar.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I appreciate how you put that like what you allow in your calendar.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when I started leading in the team that I have here at sales gravy, one of the first things I put in place were the one-on-ones.
[SPEAKER_00]: But previously, the way that I had it laid out, it made it really easy for me to cancel on my team.
[SPEAKER_00]: So being very honest and vulnerable right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: It made it very easy for me to cancel on them.
[SPEAKER_00]: which you didn't create consistency for them.
[SPEAKER_00]: It really made my life more difficult with prioritizing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I ended up changing the whole thing up, brought the team together one day and I was like, hey, so I'm gonna dedicate this one day a week where we do one-on-ones.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't care what happens outside of it, but this one day a week are going to be all's one-on-ones.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to show up for you guys because this in there are one-on-ones is where I do a lot of like coaching with them and so I changed my calendar and now everybody in the company knows Wednesdays are the one-on-one day.
[SPEAKER_00]: I ruthlessly protect Wednesdays.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's very rare that I'll make a concession.
[SPEAKER_00]: It has to be something that is genuinely cannot happen any other day of the week.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I guess my question is when you're coaching people on how to preserve the times that they're dedicating to the three things out of the most important to them.
[SPEAKER_00]: My journey I feel like was really difficult and I probably could have handled it better.
[SPEAKER_00]: So how would you coach somebody to, yeah, preserve, preserving that time?
[SPEAKER_00]: How do they get that message out to everybody else?
[SPEAKER_02]: I was going to just add one thing because I think you hit up on something and I'm going to come back to the question.
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the other things, and I don't talk about it in focused, is being focused in the moment.
[SPEAKER_02]: How many times, and I love my kids dearly, but I'm talking to them and they're on their phones.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then there's like about three seconds I'm waiting and then maybe I get a response.
[SPEAKER_02]: If I do the same thing, I'm probably a bad dad, but the bottom line is as a leader for not focused them.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not present.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not good.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very hard to make that change.
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess is the easy answer because it means doing some things that are uncomfortable.
[SPEAKER_02]: It means saying no.
[SPEAKER_02]: to somebody, you know, let's say the big boss calls you and you say, oh, I Wednesdays, I have meetings all day with my people, you know, what's your people call it?
[SPEAKER_02]: And you say, sorry, can I call you tomorrow if someone needs something, but we need to get past that discomfort because a lot of the issue is not.
[SPEAKER_02]: The world around us is ourselves because we feel guilty that, oh, I should respond.
[SPEAKER_02]: Given an example of that, where the VP of sales calls the sales manager and says, I wonder how we're doing, I think it's the Acme deal.
[SPEAKER_02]: How are we doing on that?
[SPEAKER_02]: And the managers are like, I've got a check and they drop their coaching session with Joe.
[SPEAKER_02]: To me, the right approach is, you know what, I, I'd love to update you or speaking on Friday.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll give you an update on Friday.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that okay?
[SPEAKER_02]: I have a coaching session today.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep, and I guess that's where like I said that chief repeating officer comes into play.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that one.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I use a different term.
[SPEAKER_02]: I always joke that somebody will think I'm like over the bottle or a little bit kuku because I used to be called the theory of eight when I was in industry.
[SPEAKER_02]: and I repeat myself constantly as to what was important.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I really believe you have to do that because people forget, you know, you've trained in sales, sometimes you have to do eight calls to move something forward.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I always call the theory of eight that you need to repeat yourself eight times for people to begin to understand what you're trying to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, well, I don't know if you've seen this, but you know, JBJ like posts on LinkedIn with all of his prospecting, he has like the tick marks and now all I can imagine is that our viewers, high viewers are going to have a paper where they're like tallying, making sure they're saying eight times a piece.
[SPEAKER_00]: But we're very much into like visually and like physically tracking things that I'm saying I can see it now after after this podcast episode they're they're all going to be tallying okay how many times did I say this I love that it's good advice send me a note if it's bad advice Ashley's there to help Yes, I'll help you guys track it will make we'll make a downloadable form for you to track
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, speaking of having to be chief for peeding officers and that helps with just reinforcing things, you use a word that makes some people uncomfortable, which is enforcement.
[SPEAKER_00]: You use enforcement.
[SPEAKER_00]: You call it the missing link in accountability.
[SPEAKER_00]: I agree.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what does a healthy, high-performing leadership enforcement spine look like?
[SPEAKER_02]: You're right, enforcement people think, oh my God, they think of that M word, micromanagement, the double M word, right, and think, oh my God, they're forcing, but I think it wakes people up, enforcement does not have to be rigid.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not enough being rigid, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And enforcement is not about intensity.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's about consistency.
[SPEAKER_02]: So remember, I talked about my firm management and is digging the seed up every day.
[SPEAKER_02]: First of all, when you enforce, it's not with emotion.
[SPEAKER_02]: You enforce with these are the standards, Joe.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is what I'm holding you to.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, it's a different conversation than the connotation that, oh my god, enforcement's bad because I've realized and I'm avoiding the spine, by the way, it's a little complicated too.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's in the book.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that was my epiphany, it was the spine, it was the enforcement piece.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, just as a story, this is one I promised to get to, so you kind of let me, there anyways, somehow,
[SPEAKER_02]: So for 23 years, I've been in my own business, work with sales leadership, and I started by believing that coaching is the number one factor that drives sales performance, so I created a coaching model.
[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, it's available at sales gravy called Focus Sales Coaching, so I would train managers on how to coach, and then I'd realize who would die.
[SPEAKER_02]: Pretty quickly, and then I said, okay, customers, I'm not doing training without coaching.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you want to engage me and you want to use my model, I will coach your managers for 36 months and add it implemented.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that worked better, okay?
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's the enforcement piece.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're senior management, senior leadership says, hey, we're doing this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, we got a lot of pooch back.
[SPEAKER_02]: We love we're hearing, we love coaching, we love accountability, focused on execution, but guess what, we're doing too much, we don't have time to even do what we're doing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's where the business is not leadership comes in.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, which means, as you have to remove some stuff, the news to off your plate, so you can do the important things.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that was my epiphany.
[SPEAKER_02]: it's not about getting like passionate like I get about stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's about having the conversations about standards.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's about holding those standards.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's about making sure so part of who I kind of you know, the Weinbergsparktois don't make his punch in the nose or the god I think of what he said, but this is for sales managers.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's also for other people who are not sales managers, but the key group that really tries to wake up
[SPEAKER_02]: is your second line leadership, your VP's of sales, and your CROs, because if they're having a conversation with you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Ashley and they say, well, how's it going with the Acme deal?
[SPEAKER_02]: As opposed to what they should be saying is, how's it going with coaching Ashley?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is she improving her closing skills?
[SPEAKER_02]: Has she done this?
[SPEAKER_02]: How are things going there?
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the difference.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, it's moving from coaching that deal to talk into your managers about how are they coaching?
[SPEAKER_02]: How are they developing their people?
[SPEAKER_02]: That's enforcement.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, and I love how you've defined enforcement in this way, because another word that kept coming to my mind as well are boundaries, because I think it's a combination of boundaries and enforcement as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love how you defined the enforcement for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So next I want to talk about the agonizing reality of dealing with non-performers.
[SPEAKER_00]: So why do sales leaders hesitate for so long to make tough calls on people who aren't delivering?
[SPEAKER_00]: And how does keeping the wrong person on the bus destroy the team culture and drag down your thoroughbreds?
[SPEAKER_02]: In those cases, the manager is not enforcing standards.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're not coaching to create self-managers.
[SPEAKER_02]: because a self-manager would know they're not performing.
[SPEAKER_02]: They don't have to be told many times, sometimes managers are afraid to upset people, so they don't intervene, where they intervene when it's too late.
[SPEAKER_02]: So coaching an on-performer, where my starting base is, is putting in accountability.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, to stop you right there, but you said something interesting that just then about starting to coach too late.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what would be an indicator to you that somebody started coaching too late?
[SPEAKER_02]: Somebody's missed two quarters, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Somebody's clearly missed a quarter, and there's things they could have addressed earlier on, which says you're not inspecting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Anytime someone's not performing, I always put it back to them to build a plan how they're gonna start performing.
[SPEAKER_02]: To me, the most important part of not a performance is starting with recognizing that there's a missing performance.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, some are managers don't want to go there, they're going to upset the rap, they're going to upset the team, the long run.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's worse.
[SPEAKER_02]: When nonperformance goes on for a while then it becomes the pip, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't the pip.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have a term that I created called a step.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's called a sales improvement program, which means monthly you're sitting down and monthly you're coaching and it's all about improvement.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, my answer to that is everyone should be on a sip,
[SPEAKER_02]: I talk about raising the bar because most organizations are never hitting their true potential.
[SPEAKER_02]: Never, never, never, even the top performers can do better.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it starts with always having improvement, mind-focused.
[SPEAKER_02]: Doesn't mean you're doing bad, but if you're at 140 to quota, you had to get to 150.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I swear to you, my last job in the Corporal world, we did that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Every quarterly review of our frontline managers.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, you're at 120.
[SPEAKER_02]: Come prepared.
[SPEAKER_02]: How are you going to get to 125?
[SPEAKER_02]: But it was always about raising the bar on performance.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if people say they don't do that, every company is raising the bar on performance.
[SPEAKER_02]: How can we do more with less?
[SPEAKER_02]: How can we do more?
[SPEAKER_02]: So to me that the SIP is always about focusing as a manager, unimproving your people's performance.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, you were just talking about frontline sales managers.
[SPEAKER_00]: If a frontline sales manager is listening to this right now, feeling completely buried under pressure from senior leadership.
[SPEAKER_00]: And what is the single most high payoff activity?
[SPEAKER_00]: They must block out on their calendar tomorrow morning.
[SPEAKER_02]: it's coaching coaching is you know every study and I come from the farm industry and it's all about studies on blood pressure on life expectancy, but every study shows that great coaching delivers great performance.
[SPEAKER_02]: even in effect of coaching delivered more often, delivers better performance.
[SPEAKER_02]: And substantial, we're talking 18, 19, 20 percent in many of the studies.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, if anything, block your coaching time.
[SPEAKER_02]: The answer that I don't have time to coach is unacceptable.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that, so that's easy to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, to our sales leadership, listening, you have your directive, go block that coaching time if you don't have it on there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I will say it is so important because even for myself and any organization that I've been in, I've always asked for feedback.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to know how to improve and get to that next level of performance.
[SPEAKER_00]: So my final question to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just add one thing because I assume you're a millennial like my kid.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have a 29 and a 27 year old and what I've learned about millennials, if you're managing millennials because they're different, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And everybody thinks they're lazy.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're not lazy.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know why they've got that.
[SPEAKER_02]: If they're not being coached,
[SPEAKER_02]: They're leaving your organization because they want to and expect to be coached.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're from the other generations, they expect to be coached.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you're an old time manager and you're not coaching your millennia salespeople, you're going to lose them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now I love that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's so true because I feel more valued in an organization when I'm being coached because I feel the investment back into myself, just as much as I'm investing in my career and the company that I'm working for.
[SPEAKER_00]: What is your absolute favorite sales win or career win that you've ever had?
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what good store I don't have a good story for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have to think about this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can share with you mine.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, oh, that would be, you know, give me up the hook.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it would get you off the hook.
[SPEAKER_00]: So my favorite win was, I'm actually when I was an automotive sales, and I had received an inbound lead.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for context, the dealership that I started out was across the street from a hay field.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was in the middle of nowhere, and we were 45 minutes outside of Augusta, so good luck just having people walk on to the lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was not happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: But we sold a pretty high volume of cars every month because we got really good at working the inbound leads, working the phones, working the lead list, that's the only thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I received an inbound lead called the number
[SPEAKER_00]: Turns out the number that was listed was a fax number and I recognized this by the, you know, the sound of the tone when it came over the phone.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I, from having been in the medical field, understand how to work fax machine.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I knew that our finance managers had fax machines in their offices.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I typed out this whole message and everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: I ran into one of the finance
[SPEAKER_00]: And they were like, who are you faxing?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a prospect.
[SPEAKER_00]: Please let me use this.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I sent the facts off.
[SPEAKER_00]: Didn't think anything about it for the rest of the day came in the next morning and the owner of our dealership was like leading sales meeting.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there was all this chatter about his time I walked in.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, he's that's down and he was like,
[SPEAKER_00]: I want everybody to know that Ashley probably just won the best deal of the year.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it was a custom track that had traded in that everybody was like, oh, this is going to be difficult to sell, but this particular person inquired about the specific track turns out he didn't realize at first, so he put his facts number.
[SPEAKER_00]: on the form and he called the dealership and the owner of our dealership was the one that answered the phone after hours when he called and so he ended up flying in from Louisiana to Georgia I picked him up from the airport in the truck he was buying and sold it So that's my favorite win.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love talking about that one because it facts machine to a closed sale in this in this day and age who would have thought
[SPEAKER_02]: And people don't know what facts machines are to be up to you know, I used to have it in my office that the paper would roll out.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know which copy the book you've seen.
[SPEAKER_02]: I updated the front to page and it says forward by Mike Weinberg.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mike and I have known each other for a while and I sent Mike the book and I really respect him.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's written some bestsellers.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I said, Mike, just review my book, give me some feedback, be blunt, be honest, don't worry about hurting my feelings and we can have later, just use the F word.
[SPEAKER_02]: I really love it and it's okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's great.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he's so happy to be coming to Toronto.
[SPEAKER_02]: I said, let's grab lunch.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll watch a bit of a football game.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't like pressuring people.
[SPEAKER_02]: Also made this degree.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I'm sitting down.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wouldn't it be great if you wrote the forward because I would do mean a ton of credibility, it's like generating the forward for many people, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's credibility.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then he says, well, Stephen, you know, I hope he anyway I can.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I said, would you consider writing the forries?
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I just wrote one for someone.
[SPEAKER_02]: I swear that was going to be my last one.
[SPEAKER_02]: He says, but I love the book.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to write it.
[SPEAKER_02]: There you go.
[SPEAKER_02]: I used the low pressure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Steve Rose, the approach is supposed to the high pressure.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he's been great.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's was the first podcast I did.
[SPEAKER_02]: You'd be for the book launch to call me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's do it on a Friday night.
[SPEAKER_02]: And like eight o'clock.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's nice to have champions that support you.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I love that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like, that comes down to a message that I share quite a bit and that job shares quite a bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: You just gotta ask.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've learned to ask the right way because sometimes I ask.
[SPEAKER_02]: And like, oh, here he goes again.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you so much for coming on the sales going to be podcast today.
[SPEAKER_00]: You were absolute pleasure and so much fun to speak with.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like why.
[SPEAKER_02]: So good luck to you and I think I can do it to help you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm around the, I mean, that's sincerely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much.