[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with Literary Agents, Carly Waters, and CC Lyra.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you'd ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug, and pull up a chair.
[SPEAKER_01]: welcome everybody we do not have a special guest today or your back with just Carly and CC but we had such a good time last week talking with Andy and I really want to unpack it all in our episode today with CC how was your week so far?
[SPEAKER_01]: Just us just us you guys were stuck with us it's just the two of us we spend good I
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm drinking my second cup of coffee.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is D-Cath because it's my second cup of coffee in my succession mind.
[SPEAKER_02]: People in YouTube can see.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is season 2 episode 8, my favorite episode where Ken sings L to the OG.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is the most cringy thing in the world.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love succession and I miss it so much.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, everything's good.
[SPEAKER_02]: Rink him a coffee, chatting, chatting with my friend.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, all good.
[SPEAKER_02]: How about you?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, oh, it's both here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Are the stars should know?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, it will have passed by the time that this airs, but it's your birthday weekend.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's easy birthday weekend.
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you do next weekend?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it's my birthday weekend.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I am going to ask Ben for the summer where it's conference the day after.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, like, it's gonna be very, which is what I love, low-key, since it's Saturday, my husband and I are going to grab dinner, but then I have a lot of, like, pre-trip stuff to do, like, packing, and I am, I don't, you know, people, I've mentioned this before, I don't know, people remember, I'm mostly great.
[SPEAKER_02]: My hair is, like, at this point in my life, I'm mostly great, I've been great for many years, so I have to go to the hairdresser and do my roots, because my roots are a disaster, and just do a lot of, like, who was, there was a financial,
[SPEAKER_02]: expert.
[SPEAKER_02]: I follow her.
[SPEAKER_02]: She wants that a thing about what she calls the hot girl tax.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like nails.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like my nails, for example, I'm getting my nails done.
[SPEAKER_01]: They haven't been done any more than the hot girl hamster wheel.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I mean, I get, I don't want to speak, but it might have been hard.
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, I have to get my nails done.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't have to.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm choosing to.
[SPEAKER_02]: I am choosing to people and it is my choice.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then my, my roots and so I have to do all that before the trip and that's going to be.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it is it is it's.
[SPEAKER_02]: you know it's like how much of this is a choice how much of this is the patriarchy it's too long of a discussion but I do try to do things that make me feel good like with the pandemic this is actually really interesting because we can do anything like we can get our nails down we can go to the hairdresser right and I'm like a disaster doing anything by myself like if I can't outsource it I won't do it I will just not do it
[SPEAKER_02]: I actually realize the stuff that I like doing and the stuff that I don't.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, there used to be stuff that I'm like, oh, I do this all the time and I'm like, no, the pandemic made me realize that that was society imposing that on me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then there's other stuff that I'm like, I actually like this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, when I go to the hairdresser, this is so nerdy, I break my computer and I review queries.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I get work done.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because it's like a very quiet place where I'm not, like, it's not noisy or anything.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have privacy.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's kind of nice actually.
[SPEAKER_01]: I bring my computer to the hairdresser too.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, how often do you go?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because you're blonde.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know blondes have a lot of maintenance.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I mean, the OG fans will know I've had many hair styles over the years.
[SPEAKER_01]: When I had my bleach out hair, I had to go frequently because it's just like you just wanted to be the right tone.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was probably going like every six to eight weeks then when I was like bleach out.
[SPEAKER_01]: But now I'm trying to go every more like three to four months.
[SPEAKER_01]: So my hair's kind of long right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a pin-up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I'm so glad you're going to have a nice relaxing dinner.
[SPEAKER_01]: So your husband and you're off to that secret and that's why I'm doing us all the episode next week.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I posted this on Instagram, you're going to take turns doing some solo episodes just because of our travel.
[SPEAKER_01]: We genuinely try to make it work when we travel so much, but we were not able to make it work.
[SPEAKER_01]: So each of us are going to do a solo episode coming up and I have some ideas, I think just post on Instagram.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking about either doing an excerpt from my course or just kind of figuring out if there's a topic you guys really want to deep dive into.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that is what I'm going to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I have a reel of our Instagram.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can comment or let me know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I probably would have made my decision by the time that you guys are hearing this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully, but it's all shooting the shit for a reason, so it's all good.
[SPEAKER_01]: We do have a poll going on on Instagram because I want to vote, I have a vote on this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't make a poll, I just kind of like, let people, let people decide.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, well, I will I will still vote.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you should do both.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you should do a little bit of your force and then talk a little bit about I want it all.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's my vote.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but you know, again, I mean, this is a podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: We can just do whatever we want.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the fun of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and another thing I wanted to tell you guys is see, you know, I had such a good time doing that sub stack live.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel weeks ago now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe a month ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we set a time for our next sub stack live.
[SPEAKER_01]: So specifically, this is for our.
[SPEAKER_01]: podcast, paid subscribers, and we're going to do another shooting the shit live on July 2nd at noon Eastern.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I will send out a reminder to everybody who's on the app for their through their notifications about this, but we had such a good time that we thought we were doing again.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm excited about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's going to be fun.
[SPEAKER_02]: What happens in the live stays in the live people very important?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because we do get a little
[SPEAKER_02]: Our tongues are a little looser during these days.
[SPEAKER_01]: I disagree, and I wonder why, and maybe it's just the idea of like, I think it's because we know we're with people.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like when you, we can see the comments.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we can see the comments.
[SPEAKER_01]: Instant engagement.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, we just like, no, we know we're with our people.
[SPEAKER_01]: So very loose lips, loose tongues.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you want our opinions on really anything, you can come along and hang out with us.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that'll be July 22nd at noon, Easter.
[SPEAKER_01]: So today, the main focus of our episode today is going to be really just reflecting on our conversation last week with Andy Barts.
[SPEAKER_01]: We had such a good conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: We got a lot of kind of feedback whether it was DMs or just kind of comments from people about the episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: Lots of traction on like the reels that we had posted and we hope you guys listen to the full episode of course.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and then somebody wrote in a really long comment.
[SPEAKER_01]: some of these concerns, because I think like theoretically a lot of people agree with what we are saying, not using AI in our practice.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then in reality, again, which we also talked about in the show, that it's integrated into so many things, and there's a lot of people who have like walks themselves down a path where they're like, how do I walk myself back out?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I'm going to read you this kind of long comment, and we can get into this because
[SPEAKER_01]: And somebody's the heart of what we were trying to start, the conversation we were trying to start with last week's show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, here we go.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is more of a response to this week's shooting the shit.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I apologize that it's not the suggestion you're looking for, but I think it's worth more conversation for a future shooting the shit because I suspect a lot of people are too scared to be honest about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wish I could turn back time and never use AI even in the smallest parts of my work for my book.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am one of those people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Pressured into figuring out AI for work, I always hated how it quote writes, quote, and quote, and I've never used it that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: And decided that testing it with that topic, I know a lot about the background research for my book would be a good way to learn about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: To be honest, I know for professional experience that it is very good at sifting through lots of data, which is relevant to my research, that probably saved me days if not weeks of non-created Brent work.
[SPEAKER_01]: That Brent work was really just a basis for every search about the actual substance
[SPEAKER_01]: which has since expanded significantly through my own efforts.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have never and would never use AI to generate words or ideas for my book, but have used it for feedback on some snippets.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I seriously regret it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also experienced the slippery slope of Googling a question and then asking a follow-up question in the AI summary area.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're glad to believe this can be very helpful.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can ask complex questions, get links to pages that understand the context better, the normal results, which is valuable.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have also used it more context-rich, resource, for specific singular words, even before AAM.
[SPEAKER_01]: I always had a policy of finding a second source when researching, so I feel secure and I'm safe from the hallucinations, finding their way to my writing, because honestly, for all we know on the internet now, an article that looks like a real result in Google or Dr. Go could be AIS thought full of hallucinations, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, I'm wondering what your advice is to writers who may have asked AI for advice feedback or help with research and now regret it even if we have maintained strict boundaries about our work in human authored.
[SPEAKER_01]: And double-couldroupable check any research related.
[SPEAKER_01]: information the AI generated.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel sick thinking I could jeopardize my work because I was convinced this was okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think most of what I used to ask AI questions about my writing was from such an early draft that's not recognizable from what I have now, which is not even the final version, so I know it will change even more.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel stuck between wanting to be honest with future agents and recognizing that anything I used AI for is
[SPEAKER_01]: So far, I've removed from my actual manuscript.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm very anxious to know how agents are approaching this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to be punished for being honest, like I said, I wish I could turn back time, because I feel like the people who are actually using me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I should write for them something I would never do, exclamation explanation explanation would not be honest without this.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's kind of the end of the, end of the comment slash question that somebody sent in and I just felt like as soon as I read this we just got this yesterday as soon as I read this I felt so much empathy and I feel like this is person saying the quiet part of loud, which is really why I just wanted to fade even louder because I am assuming a lot of writers probably connect with this CCGF first thoughts I have a question does she say why she regretted it I didn't spot that.
[SPEAKER_01]: did I miss because I'm like so like a little brain foggy today or I think it's the moral I think it's missing but I assumed it was kind of the moral side of it is my guess or just like if it's going to get in the way of her getting an agent because if she then you know says hey I did use this in research in my first round that it might get away of her getting an agent okay yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
[SPEAKER_02]: I ask because from what she's saying, she has used it in a way that has in her view, of course, it's always in our views, improved her work.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's saying that she used it for researching the research.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not even like, she's mentioning that she's mentioning that it's been helpful.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I didn't, and she also mentioned that she already has the habit of like checking sources and not just accepting things.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it sounds like this is someone who's like engaging with this with a lot of critical thinking.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I, and is enjoying the, or it has enjoyed or potentially enjoyed parts at least of the results it gave her, which to me is, is curious.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have been called out this week multiple times by very polite people saying in my DMs.
[SPEAKER_02]: Susie, if you've never used AI, how dare you say it's whatever, which fair I do think that whatever I said was like, it's not for me, but maybe I didn't, maybe I forgot to preface that I was speaking for myself only, but yeah, this person seems to be enjoying the results.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I guess you're probably right, probably it is because she's worried about not getting an agent.
[SPEAKER_02]: This might be the part about this whole thing that I like the least.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's terrorizing authors now, like yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe she has copyrightability concerns, because the line is just not clear on that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have thoughts on how she should engage, but I also want to hear from you, I don't want to just ramble.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I highlighted a few things as you can see in our doc, those were my highlights.
[SPEAKER_01]: First thing I highlighted was, I think it's worth more conversation for a future episode, because I suspect a lot of people are too scared to be honest about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the part that really scares me as an agent.
[SPEAKER_01]: We need to be able to have conversations about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the thing is, as you guys know, we say this all the time, every agent is different.
[SPEAKER_01]: Every agency is running like a small business.
[SPEAKER_01]: Every agency is going to have their own policy, the philosophies about this, and different knowledge bases about this, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: From different generations, different agents are going to feel differently, I think, as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is the part that worries me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if writers can't be honest with us, then we're setting up a foundation and a relationship, a business partnership where we can't be truthful.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the part that's really scary.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we can't ever allow that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like that really will be the death.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like the death of all the wonderful creative work we do.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like that is number one.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like that we really can't allow.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think this person for sending in this message,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: The other part of highlighted was I have never would never use the at your generate words or ideas for my book, but if used it for feedback and I seriously regret it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm not my understanding is like maybe they were putting in like a paragraph or a couple lines and maybe more and asking for feedback.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's the part that yeah, yeah, maybe she put the whole manuscript for all, you know, like
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, we don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's a different way.
[SPEAKER_02]: I almost want this person to come on anonymously.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like we can fill her her face and promise comfort and jallity for all of life.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I so I can ask her questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: I almost want to, I want to know what her fear is.
[SPEAKER_02]: If it's the agent heart, I personally think, like if, okay, if this were with me, okay?
[SPEAKER_02]: I would be like first, thank you so much for telling me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because that alone tells me that you're such an honorable person.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I want to work with you even more now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, like if I'm having a chat with someone, I loved their work.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, like, to me that that's like step one, loving their work.
[SPEAKER_02]: But now I'm also loving like their morals and how honorable they're being.
[SPEAKER_02]: So thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I'd want to understand the parameters.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd want to understand the parameters, so we can be really transparent with publishers.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have seen more than one case.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have something in publishing called Delivery and Acceptance.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you have your, you know, your book deal and you get your notes from your editor
[SPEAKER_02]: deliver the manuscript and it is hopefully accepted, you know, and that's when you get one of your payments.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I've seen in more than one case, my Asian Slack was blowing up about this the other day, a publisher being like, hey,
[SPEAKER_02]: We got your delivery, and we're now worried that AI was used.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, this is not happened to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do not have to want to make clients.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to be this very clear, but has happened to three different people that I know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Where the publishers like, hmm, we're worried AI might have been used to here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Was it?
[SPEAKER_02]: And then they're asking questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're asking really diligent questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: And...
[SPEAKER_02]: All the agents that I spoke to have said that the questions were very thoughtful, like it didn't feel like an interrogation, it didn't feel like it was just like, hey, can we understand if you've used AI or not?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because publishers are scared about copyright to ability without that they can't make money.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is a business.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I would ask all these thoughtful questions with thoughtful questions that I could come up with.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I would do my very best to see if we could still move forward.
[SPEAKER_02]: because I would want to.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would want to move forward with someone who is both talented and honorable, but I just have so many questions, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I want to know like exactly how did you use it, how much of your manuscript was inputted?
[SPEAKER_02]: What was the feedback that you said you used it for?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like show me the version pre show me the version post and that would actually require a lot of diligence on my part in terms of cognitive labor and time to like
[SPEAKER_02]: read one version than read another, but I would do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would do it without, without even thinking, because it would be worth it for me for a really good story.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would be like, I'm excited, and I want to see if we can find a way to like, protect the author, protect the publisher, protect the deal, and and move forward.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of spending through my mind right now, but I think all of that makes makes perfect sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I hadn't heard about agents or, you know, clients and then, I mean, not interrogated that's not the word you use being questioned at the delivery accepted stage because.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I, yeah, I don't that this is what scares me is like the breakdown of trust right to say an editor sends their edit letter to an author.
[SPEAKER_01]: what if the author then goes and like puts all of this into, you know, some software and then, you know, the manuscript makes the changes back based on the other's work and I think that's I think that's what they're worrying about just to say the quiet part out loud there, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And what's scary about that, too, is that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I remember pre-email days.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, it was very young, but I remember.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember like adults in my life, saying things like, this is gonna make our lives so much easier because now, like, you used to, yeah, I'd have to write a letter, you know, mail it, wait for the letter to arrive, wait for the response.
[SPEAKER_02]: And now you can do it fast, and so we're going to have more free time.
[SPEAKER_02]: I remember adults distinctly saying that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then what actually happened is that you did not have more free time.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now people just expect an answer faster, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So why am I bringing this up?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm worried that some people are going to use AI, deliver faster, deliver, edit faster, deliver everything faster because of AI.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then publishers are going to start expecting things faster from authors.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then authors are going to be like, well, if that's the expectation, I have to use AI.
[SPEAKER_02]: So even the people who don't, like, do you know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_02]: cycle that I do not want.
[SPEAKER_02]: So many thoughts.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my gosh, every week, every week we talk about this thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right now, to me, like I also want to circle back something else you said, it's just about the cognitive labor.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the part that's breaking my brain also a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just like the amount of work that like when you start to question things and again the trustees and having to rebandes scripts multiple times, not just more content and editing and all the regular developmental edits we do.
[SPEAKER_01]: having to do another quote, quote, maybe fact check for our clients.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that's just so much more work that also putting on our plates to have to be that intermediary.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yesterday was the AA LA's town hall.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the agency association in the U.S. their town hall and I attended it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things I brought up was like the upskilling.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I also wrote that this is my sub-stack.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've just
[SPEAKER_01]: The amount of upscaling that agents have had to do, you know, be on to the core skills that we kind of came into this business with is kind of blowing my brain.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm learning more about technology than I ever thought I was going to learn the depths of copyright law not being a lawyer like we're just agents are constantly having to upscale and we're just like upscaling and upscaling and upscaling.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like how far are we getting away from the core job that we set out to do in this industry, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we didn't get into this business to be the AI police.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's what I got into this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, definitely not, you know, and I think I think that's hard.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that that's a role no one really wants.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's why, like, you know, to the people who tell me that I have strong opinions on the, you guys are right, I do.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's why I say it to steer clear.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, because it's the only way we can be super, super safe without any kind of ambiguity.
[SPEAKER_02]: I understand that might be super naive of me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I got it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I genuinely got it and I'm listening and I'm,
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I'm a person with a thinking brain and my opinions are like, I'm always, I'm always trying to like update my opinions and like figure out all the moving parts.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I do have like you guys are right to say this to me like I do have very strong opinions on just a way from thing because.
[SPEAKER_02]: aside from the moral, aside from the theft, aside from all the stuff that is very important and I'm not saying that's not important, but there's also the fact that I'm worried it's going to I'm going to blow up book deals.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you know how hard it is to book deal people?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like to make to make oneself vulnerable?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it's like, you know, it's, it honestly feels sometimes like you're walking a balanced rope carrying an egg.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, like, balance it in the spoon in your mouth.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, and it's like, you're going to, you're going to add an earthquake to that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, can we not add the earthquake?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: The earthquake's here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's on my plates have been shifting.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I mean, I'm also coming back to what you said, like,
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a thinking job.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have such an it's a luxury for us to have a thinking job.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also not everybody is entitled to a book deal, which we talked about many times on our shows.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm worried also the ability to access technology that could make you do it faster and all those other things that we just talked about will make people feel entitled to having that thing where it's like it's the thinking job that that you.
[SPEAKER_01]: have to work your way towards.
[SPEAKER_01]: Being an author isn't something that you just get to decide to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anybody can be a writer.
[SPEAKER_01]: We can all open up a document and write something down.
[SPEAKER_01]: But being an author is when you become published, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like making your work published, starting to monetize that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And not everybody is entitled to that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I guess I'm worried that people are going to think it's even easier to get into this business when actually these
[SPEAKER_02]: Can I ask do you mean like traditionally published because they're self-publishing right like in that technically is accessible to all.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, I guess yeah, I always think.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I know we betrayed and trade public things.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, no, I'm just a good clarification.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because you know, people can do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: The last thing that I highlighted from this really interesting note that was said to us was kind of like a chunkier section, but I think that the heart of it was just like I'm very anxious to know how agents are approaching this and so as you guys know, I mean,
[SPEAKER_01]: you listen to the show because you want to agents opinion.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is these are just two agents opinions and I think that we are quite knowledgeable on the subject.
[SPEAKER_01]: We work really hard to continue to being as knowledgeable as we can on the subject just because we don't engage with it on a daily basis in our work because again, CC and I feel like that's a violation of our fiduciary responsibility to our clients to putting their work into that technology.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I can speak for both of us, what I say that we would never do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: We feel more hopeful and ethical responsibility that we wouldn't do that, but I don't know what other agents are doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wrote in my sub-stack this past week about, you know, not all agents always act in the best interest of their clients.
[SPEAKER_01]: You guys know that there's a lot of bad actors out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I can't tell you for certainty that there aren't agents that are gonna put materials into this or,
[SPEAKER_01]: right edit letters with it, or any of the other numerous things that agents could do with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I can't make you guys promises on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we are also anxious to learn how other agents are going to approach it because we want a certain ethical standard for our business.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we believe in high ethical standard for our business.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a really good point.
[SPEAKER_02]: I also think she
[SPEAKER_02]: She also meant like, I make anxious to know how agents are approaching dealing with writers who have these day eye and the way that she's used and whether it'll be a deal breaker.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like to your, because you, you, the one who clarified that for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's also a little bit where her anxiety is coming from.
[SPEAKER_01]: yeah conversations the more the more trust you can show them i think that's rewarded honestly i yeah i just want to be as wide open you know i just want all the information because yeah we don't want to get later on in the process you know at the DNA stage or publication stage and then you're like oh actually this like that's really hard to recover from so uh surprise and storytelling
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, should we wrap up this segment, CC?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we show I was a final note on, you know, debriefing last week's conversation, where of course, Andrea Bartz joined us.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, personally, I've always been a huge fan of Andy's books.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've talked about them.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've had them up.
[SPEAKER_02]: I, this is, I'm meeting her for the first time.
[SPEAKER_02]: IRL and being like, you are so talented.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, she had to hear that from me.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is ridiculous.
[SPEAKER_02]: But,
[SPEAKER_02]: What I wanted to say, and I have a copy of the last very out here of copies of all her books, but I have them as e-books, is Andy did do a wonderful service for writers when she took on anthropic, you know, and was the lead plaintiff in that case, and that was like a huge thing she did that was, I imagine, so time consuming, and
[SPEAKER_02]: If you want to show appreciation if anyone listens like that's so cool and because I think it's cool and maybe you do too if you want to show appreciation a wonderful way to do that is to support her books and I'm not saying anyone has to because we would never never tell anyone you know how to spend their time with their money but I did get a lot of messages from you guys saying cc it's so cool that Andy did this like she's such a badass and she is like we'll never be able to repay her and I'm like okay fine you'll never be able to repay her but just saying just saying guys supporting her books is a
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I believe the paperback just came out this week.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you haven't bought it yet, grab it in paperback.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you have it in hardcover, buy it in paperback for a friend.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're just, yeah, we were so honored that Andy was our first guest.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's easy to appreciate her for everything she's done.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, we are going to hear from our sponsors.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we're going to come back and talk about some headlines from the week.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, TC, we are back.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, there's always news in publishing.
[SPEAKER_01]: We highlighted a few things that were kind of news where the this week, I grabbed some UK bookstaffs that I wanted to share with you guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then CC want to talk about some things in publishers lunch.
[SPEAKER_01]: So here are just some UK bookstats for you guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like to kind of bring you numbers whenever I can, whenever they cross my desk.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, that is the UK.
[SPEAKER_01]: The publishing industry has reached its highest ever revenue in 2025, according to the publishers Association.
[SPEAKER_01]: up 3% to 7.4 billion pounds with audio books digital and export key areas of growth.
[SPEAKER_01]: The overall home market was up 3% in 2025 to 2.6 billion pounds while the export market was up 4% to 4.7 billion making up 64% of revenue and emphasizing, quote, the importance of international trade for the publishing industry.
[SPEAKER_01]: Overall, print saw no percentage change remained at 3.8 billion while digital, what they call ebook increased 7% to 3.5 billion pounds.
[SPEAKER_01]: The audiobook market grew by 10% to 2.5 billion percent.
[SPEAKER_02]: 10% percent.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: We love that double digit growth.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, lots of good stuff happening there on the digital side of things.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, double-digit growth, like double-fudge brownies.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, points for that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Love seeing growth.
[SPEAKER_02]: I did highlight two things that came out today on Publishers Lunch.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they're both AI related, because that's all we talk about.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the first is that Google Playbooks is now launching something, which they are calling a reading companion.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's essentially a in-book chat bot.
[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously powered by AI, where readers get to engage and ask questions, and you can opt out per book.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, like...
[SPEAKER_02]: you are chatting about the book with this spot.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, again, also today, Storytell launched an AI Companion feature, which is essentially an AI power tool that can explain why a specific book will resonate, helping users pick their next story and generating recaps when a listener has lost the thread of a story in progress.
[SPEAKER_02]: it includes a chat interface, you know, it's using LLMs from Google Gemini, OpenAI, and Thropic, and others.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's going to launch for Swedish subscribers today, I guess, and be available in other markets in August.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to highlight these two things, because we talk a lot
[SPEAKER_02]: in the creation process.
[SPEAKER_02]: Currently, our agents, we work with storytellers and we're always talking about, you know, the AI, any AI use for the creation of stories.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is, I guess, this is also AI, but it comes later in the process.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is AI use for reading.
[SPEAKER_02]: So reading is a very solitary activity.
[SPEAKER_02]: I suppose you could listen to an audio book together, but I feel like most people don't.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like most people listen to audio books while they're doing other things, using their earphones.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, when you're reading with your eyes, you're obviously doing it by yourself, typically.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, however, one of the most magical things about reading is that after you do read by yourself, my sister and I do all the time, my mother-in-law, and I do this all the time, you talk about books with other people.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's why booklets are so popular.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, when you go, hey, what about the scene?
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you think that scene and that book was this or that?
[SPEAKER_02]: What did you think about this character?
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is one of the most magical things about books for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would not have my life if you weren't for booklobes.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's how magical booklobes are for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's where I found some of my best friends.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's where I found my people.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's where I've had some of the most interesting discussions.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I have a very interesting job.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you can imagine how interesting those booklobes are.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the fact that we're going to have these companions, I guess.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, again, this does show my vibe as people are right to DM me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel sad because I just don't, I just don't believe that an AI companion will be able to substitute a human companion and the human discussion, and I know that someone's going to say, who says it's substituting, it could just be adding.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like things are finite resources typically time, you know, attention span.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do think that some substitution will likely happen for the most part.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I don't know, it makes me a little sad.
[SPEAKER_02]: I understand that if the world we're heading to, I understand that I have to, to a degree get over it.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it, I feel like the magic of human interaction when talking about books is so special.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love it so much.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, finally, you and I were not gonna say the book, but there was a book that we had very strong opinions about.
[SPEAKER_02]: And like that many discussion we had, though so much fun.
[SPEAKER_02]: We end up learning things about each other that we didn't know because we say, oh, I have a friend who did this or my husband this or my friend that or my sister that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just feel sad that that a bot is going to exist so people can talk about it with a bot.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, thank you, a bot.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I get it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I get that I, I'm just one person.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I think the thing that freaks me out is the scraping part, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like in order to create a summary, it has to scrape it and put it through some NLM, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: To come up with the summary and that's the technology and that's the coding and that's where that's where we are.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do feel like.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the thing two years ago that we were worried about, and now it's here, and I mean, the news just came out, you know, a couple hours ago, but you know, so I haven't seen any backlash because I've recorded a podcast today, but like I'm just worried there's not going to be enough of a back like enough, they're not going to get that much backlash, you know, it says in this.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the Google what for example, like oh people can't opt out, but there's like no notice and there's like oh, you know, only users who have an entitlement to the books It is a purchase or a rental are able to use the book insights, but you know, we start there and then we just slide and slide and slide, you know, like that that's how this how this starts and how we got there So I feel a little bit defeated.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess that's what I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel defeated
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I share that sentiment.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that part that's really sad, going back to Andy's case with anthropic against and anthropic, I should say.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, the scraping was deemed legal as long as the books were purchased legally, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's supposedly sand.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, that's how the court's feel.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, as long as you bought the book legally, you do get to do that, or they, you know, that was the ruling anyway, and don't like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I am going to see if I can go one shooting this shit episode without saying I don't like AI.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just so that people who keep DMing me, people I know you will still DM me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just give me like a weak break from, from feeling like, say, see, why do you hate AI so much?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, fair, totally fair.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know, maybe we could also make a challenge to go a week with him talking about it at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: We can find out something else to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That would be good.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I like that idea, you know what?
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if I have to be next week.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will leave that up to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, no, because next week's solo.
[SPEAKER_02]: But like, whenever we'll come up with a summer challenge, there will be one shooting the shit episode where we won't talk about it yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: the biggest AI thing will happen for sure for sure it's going to be like then the Martians came and they're behind AI like for sure that's going to happen.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, you've got your 10-poil hat on now.
[SPEAKER_02]: I see how it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, well we will end there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you guys if you have more kind of debrief thoughts where we're very welcome to hearing them, you know, we really do like getting to the weeds in the nuance of this whole thing because that's where the truth lies and we
[SPEAKER_01]: We barred our truth over here because we really care about working with real humans.
[SPEAKER_01]: So thanks for hanging out with us for another week.
[SPEAKER_00]: CCLera is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the Submission Guidelines at www.wshoman.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: Carly Waters is a literary agent at PS Literary Agency, but a work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: are solely that of her as a podcast co-host, they do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency.