[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the horror hounds, a lower-hounds podcast your guides to the next Martha's Vineyard that's definitely not cursed.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Alicia, unfortunately not joined by John today because he got bit by an animal and became that animal.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I made it through the store.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Lisa, co-host of Into the West.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm counting up the dead bodies that didn't count towards a bell toll.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm Mark, co-host of Nevermind the Music, where even when we're locked in a death trap storm shelter, my co-host just wants to dish on Gwen Stefani's serial monogamy.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's always so real.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_03]: Again, Gwen.
[SPEAKER_03]: Always the important aspects of the conversation on Nevermind the Music.
[SPEAKER_00]: But today we're talking about episodes 6 through 10 of Widow's Bay season 1 season 1 of 2 season 2 confirmed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Are we all happy about it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I'd like to even more on a rewatch.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, and this relates to my, this relates to my fresh take.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, the finale makes me go, all right, all right, all right, all right, fine.
[SPEAKER_03]: Season two, let's do it.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was feeling like a self-contained story, and it is not feeling like a self-contained story anymore.
[SPEAKER_03]: So yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll check out our mid-season coverage for our spoiler free fresh takes on the season and to hear me say I wanted season two because there's so many stories.
[SPEAKER_00]: But once boiler so far we love it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we've already covered episodes one through five.
[SPEAKER_00]: We set up the creators behind the show and why their combined experience makes this such a unique.
[SPEAKER_00]: television series.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, and we broke down also then the characters and the haunts.
[SPEAKER_00]: As we knew them so far, the mid-season point.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, this time we're focusing on the back half of the season episodes 6 through 10.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, we're building on that first discussion.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to be organizing it by mystery this time, but it means all spoilers for the entire first season start now.
[SPEAKER_00]: And as we said, John's not able to join us today.
[SPEAKER_00]: He said, tell everyone the chair got me Patricia has avenged all the scream queens who ever got a sequel, because they didn't make sure the murderer was dead.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we still stand our girl Patricia here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mark, where did you think of the back half of the season?
[SPEAKER_00]: And the season is a whole.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so I think I started the back half the, the back half the season liking it a little less than the, uh, especially like the episodes three and four, um, but I'll all start with the positive six and ten and the flashback in the.
[SPEAKER_03]: The specifically, the flash, oh yeah, I'll find, I'll start with the negative.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, it was not as enthused with the colonial times flashback.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, are we gonna see the witch, but funny?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, and it kinda, I don't know, it kinda fell flat.
[SPEAKER_03]: I liked every, I really like everybody involved.
[SPEAKER_03]: I liked a lot of aspects to it, but it didn't have the kind of comedic element in balance as much in that.
[SPEAKER_03]: So while I understand that it was necessary for some of the later stuff and I liked once we got the founder in modern times.
[SPEAKER_03]: I liked all that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just when you compare to was an episode for the sort of Patricia.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I was really hoping that when we got the flashback, it would be a little more like that, but 300 years ago or whatever.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, but the finale really did it for me.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love the finale.
[SPEAKER_03]: Especially the way it ends.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like it just, it kind of reminds me why I listened to all your podcasts and why I'm involved.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I am a lorehound to my own core.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so the teasing us of just like,
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, it's going to eat.
[SPEAKER_03]: It needs to eat more or whatever they were talking about and we'll talk about it like this thing that has to come and take a sacrifice like and then telling us basically nothing about it like what's not to love there.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now I need it.
[SPEAKER_03]: sort of monster of the week to monster of the week and this could be a season that wrapped.
[SPEAKER_03]: It really, I just need a little more, you know.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it reminded me the absurdity of some of those moments was simultaneously reminding me of lost like the, the found footage.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's put in the Dharma initiative kind of video and you're like, what am I watching?
[SPEAKER_03]: And combine that with almost a cabin in the woods.
[SPEAKER_03]: no spoilers there, but like that movie goes way off the rails in ways that feel like this could and we didn't get a love crafty in moment at the end, but maybe it happened behind that door.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: Which is still a jar, by the way.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was slightly open.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so I haven't rewatched it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, um, yes, so I'm for I'm here for it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I enjoyed it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, not a perfect season of TV, but very thoroughly enjoyable the whole time and Curious to talk to you all about what we think it's going to do next season.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's okay to be wrong about this perfect season of TV.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just kidding.
[SPEAKER_03]: Perfect, huh?
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's near perfect.
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think, Lisa?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, yeah, Mark, Mark stole some of my thoughts as well or shared my thoughts as well as I was definitely thinking lost initiative the Dharma initiative from lost and you know and all of that so that was really great, but I just cannot get enough of Kato Flynn as Patricia, you know, I mean we shared on discord how absolutely hysterical she was in like sea sickness when she interrupts.
[SPEAKER_01]: Tom, while he's talking to Richard and she's like, I forgot my purse and everyone has a jump scare.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, those moments continued on.
[SPEAKER_01]: I felt through the end of the season, you know, except for maybe the last one that did need to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, more grounded, more serious, more consequential, and I was really holding my breath.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: My reactions to Tom learning the effects of what Ruth was saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was reacting this and wait, Matthew, who he was.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I was just like, holding my breath, my eyes were like, there's some like, you know, oh my god, and, you know, so,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I really, really enjoyed it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought it was a fantastic season of television.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is really my kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So of course, I'm going to like it, but it's just so well done.
[SPEAKER_00]: It just, I love horror comedies, but it does take a special balance to do it
[SPEAKER_00]: tastefully, you know, surprisingly, in a fresh way.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's just some magical timing, a mix of timing, an absurdity and restraint that just, uh, together, walking a type rope and nailing it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, that's mixing metaphors anyway.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll say everyone came in raving about Matthew Reese.
[SPEAKER_00]: I only knew him from the wine show.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've never watched the Americans.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, so I've been my notes here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I did not know your game, Matthew Reese.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he really impressed me, especially in the finale episode with Joe, like his reactions to things.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, we already made the joke about, uh, got bit by an animal and became that animal.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, well, no, okay, we're just gonna let that go by.
[SPEAKER_00]: the whole journey that his reactions go on really sells everything else that's happening as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I like that this is a show that really gives, I mean of course we have our main characters and we'll talk about them more today.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll talk about some of the side characters as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: But there's so many like in the background characters that are recurring like Kathy,
[SPEAKER_00]: or Garrett from the Lighthouse, this just makes it feel like a real full town, and this is why, you know, it felt to me that they were seeding more seasons because they have, they built such a wide foundation.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll talk through like all of the little Lord drops today too, that just they could keep this going for,
[SPEAKER_00]: five years or more if they wanted to easily with with everything that they've built so far.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I've been Mark's also right that it could have just ended with this season and that it would have been okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would have been sad about it because I really when I like something I want more of it obviously.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it would have, you know, been satisfying enough and I'm sure they would have tweaked some things like maybe not having the eight bells at the end.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I, I,
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess it, you know what this also, have you guys read the short story, those who walk away from Omelus, right or so, like A-Liguin?
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_03]: No.
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's, it's a famous short story, very short actually, I mean, I'm going to go ahead and spoil it right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to pause and read it 10 minutes, but it's- Is this the one where the-
[SPEAKER_03]: Sorry, I know there's one Ursula Gwit, the one where like somebody suffers, so everybody else can be prosperous or something.
[SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, okay, all right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's, it takes you through this like,
[SPEAKER_00]: this thriving city on a celebration day and then eventually takes you to this basement where there's this abuse dank child who can't be comforted or you know and just has to take on the suffering for everyone else.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that really feels at the end of this like an inspiration for
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and there's other short stories that respond to it as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, Mark.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's also kind of like to some extent is they're the thin eater trope, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, sure.
[SPEAKER_03]: Of the idea of like somebody.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's not really stuffy, but like everybody is kind of cleansed by the suffering, but here it's weird because everybody is suffering.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think in the story you're talking about isn't it utopian kind of?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like a race.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, everything except the suffering, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Except for that, whereas this is like also bad for a lot of the inhabitants kind of, but I think it's safe.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but the apparently if they feed the island, you know, it's demands the nine belt holes, or which is now eight, then apparently it will go to sleep for a while, the entity, and then they can live in peace in nice days.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, reminded me of, was it dairy?
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like how long can we keep this evil contained in a sleep?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they also said that the entity likes the taste of fear.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, like Pennywise did you?
[SPEAKER_03]: In conversation with it for sure.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do we think just zooming way ahead?
[SPEAKER_03]: Do we think we will ever know what the entity is?
[SPEAKER_03]: Or is it gonna be this vague sort of notion of the island that also
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe is a different monster every single seat, you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, or do you think we're going to get answers or is that not the point?
[SPEAKER_03]: What kind of show is this?
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess is the question.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I suppose it depends how long it goes on.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think they will get closer to answers.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do think that they have answers to certain degree, but I also don't think it's that complex really or maybe that's just because I'm into folklore.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm like, yeah, there's there's some sort of demonic entity that
[SPEAKER_01]: You can give me whatever lower you want to build around it, but yeah, yeah, I'm probably more satisfied with however that ultimate it that ultimate, you know, demon devil continues to manifest itself.
[SPEAKER_01]: Either through others, things brought back to life, that kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I definitely don't want to see what the ultimate boogie man looks like.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't feel it's that kind of show.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, I mean, we've seen dark shapes in the background or something but right and now I'm with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah
[SPEAKER_00]: If it happens in the future, I hope it's, you know, done well, obviously.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that this is a group of people who have taste, as we've discussed.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I trust them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it should be something that would be like in the first three seasons necessarily, even.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's more interesting to see how this entity manifests through things like the bookie man, you know, and they've laid so many stories to explore.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or it could be like men and black when it's actually this tiny little thing inside of a thing inside of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, so you know, we we so much want to bring to our stories, you know, this big bad evil looking thing and it's just a little alien little things.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'm here for it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think the thing that they're going to need to tread lightly on is they've sort of established that anything that's possible like any any monster could be a manifestation of this and as long as they don't cause us to lose.
[SPEAKER_03]: are concerned for the main characters or feel too nihilistic about the mystery like in the sense of like well there is nothing to learn it's just it can just do whatever like you know the sort of fantasy novel trope of like your magic system has to have some rules or people lose the states right so I feel like they wrote that line well in this season by really limiting our manifestations of the evil there's the boogie man there's the like
[SPEAKER_03]: see, hack, kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a few other things, but it could become endless.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like 10 seasons of anything you could possibly dream up.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hopefully they can keep writing that line well, I guess, to make us still, because I still feel like there's, there's a logic to it, even though I don't understand all of it, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, let's get into the mysteries themselves just setting up.
[SPEAKER_00]: So episode 10 was released just this week on June 16th or 17th, depending on where in the world you are.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we're talking about the last five episodes in particular.
[SPEAKER_00]: But of course, we'll be referring back.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so those last five episodes are episode six, our history, which was directed by Ty West, who is a director of like the X trilogy, including Pearl.
[SPEAKER_00]: written by Alberto Roldon, who worked on Mrs. Davis, which I'm like, yeah, he did, of course.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's why he's a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: Episode seven, C sickness, directed by Sam Donovan, who also directed the Witchie episode four that we all love so much and is also worked on like shows like severance.
[SPEAKER_00]: Written by Dave Harris, who worked was a staff writer for interview with the vampire season one,
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, be still my heart, episode 8, your baggage directed by Andrew G. Young, who also directed, episode 5, the tripping episode and is also worked on like our flag means staff, and the chair company, and other shows written by Emma Ketchum, who is a production assistant on Hacks amongst other things.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, I know that name.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, I think they say her name on the Hacks podcast or something anyway.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nine, emergency shelter directed by Hero Mirai, the head director of the series.
[SPEAKER_00]: He directed the first two episodes, and he directed the last two episodes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, of course, has a background with Atlanta, station 11, Barry, the bear.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, this episode nine was written by Bobaque S. Farjani, who worked on also WandaVision, Alien Earth Kindred, just like, wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the, yeah, the finale was again directed by Mirai and written by this show, runner Katie Dipald.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're not going to be talking episode by episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to be talking about all the episodes through each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: So make sure you're caught up on the whole season or we are about to spoil it for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's start as we did last time with our girl Patricia.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about the, uh, it was almost a standalone episode, this boogie man episode, like very Halloween Michael Myers-esque.
[SPEAKER_00]: Where did you think of this one, Mark?
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, which, which episode was this?
[SPEAKER_03]: Was this eight?
[SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_03]: The funny thing about it is I'm trying to remember how it resolved.
[SPEAKER_03]: This was for me for the most part.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think, um, I, it was of the, of the, of the last five.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was the most direct homage, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: In the sense that it was,
[SPEAKER_03]: Clear we're talking about certain references in the first, you know, whether it's the fog episode, like everything had a very fixed scope.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think this was the last one that felt as fixed, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Why can't I remember how it resolves?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I used to find, yeah, well, and then Patricia follows him around with a gun for the rest of time.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: They burn and that's okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought it's so hilarious.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my gosh, thank you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: That is the Kudagra pun intended all of that episode is just her at the incinerator.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know the way out, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I've just said that to each of you has been doing fun at Moji Recap.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the episode is on the discourse.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my god, you know, I thought it was great.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've um, I was still the Laura that all I'm still not totally sure on like can everybody even see that manifestation, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Obviously the, the sheer does, but the women never really hurt her the mean girls never really do, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I mean, that's everyone else seem to everyone who actually saw him seem to see it, but that is the question is because Patricia went into the house and they were mean to her, and then so she ran out and then she saw him in the window and they're like, uh, Patricia, but then he falls out the window, so they must have heard that, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But we never see them again.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think for the rest of the season.
[SPEAKER_00]: Were they even in the bunker?
[SPEAKER_00]: No, remember them.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so I liked about this is like she
[SPEAKER_03]: She gets to be right and wrong, like her character was lying.
[SPEAKER_03]: She did make all that up, but it's real now, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And she's, well, she did make it all up.
[SPEAKER_00]: She only made up the phone calls part.
[SPEAKER_00]: He did go to her house.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then,
[SPEAKER_03]: After he killed one of the other victims, she started saying it had gone further than that or something like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, will she before he came to her house, she lied about getting the phone calls too.
[SPEAKER_03]: Got it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So maybe she could call him on herself when she was a teenager in a way by doing that.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I love how they like...
[SPEAKER_03]: they went to, she did make this up, but does that even matter, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because it's real now.
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, so what do you do with that information now, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And the, the, the Mean Girls are found wanting in that regard to say at least.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love the Patricia Tazard her and said what she's the worst.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's the fucking worst.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: She is.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do wonder the fact that we didn't see them after that.
[SPEAKER_00]: We didn't see the reactions.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wonder if that part got cut out because they decided to go a different direction with it or something for next season.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it's conspicuous.
[SPEAKER_00]: They suddenly disappear after like I wanted to see, they must know, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: They must know.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's got a broken window.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: keep the the group in season two as still being some of the naysayers perhaps or something.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I I too wonder if you know it's not like they're going away but those characters still have a place we still definitely need to like we're saying see the reaction to what Patricia said and did and what's been happening but I hope we see them in season two.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I'm sure I bet they'll be
[SPEAKER_00]: It was interesting, so he stole the murderous mask from the museum, and I guess it was got burned into his skin when Patricia was, like, so badass final girl in this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I need 20 on three, and then she lights the gasoline on fire, so he lights on fire.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, so I guess that burned to his skin, which is a shame because I looked up who was played it, and it's played by Stuttman Aaron Armstrong, and he's really hot.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Patricia Spaceman, 94 on Discord, shared a quote from this article in the rap about this character and the direction they were initially like I heard in other interviews from Kitty
[SPEAKER_00]: going to have, she had a different character in mind until she met Kato Flynn and was like, oh, that's who Patricia has to be.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so originally, this is quoting the rap, originally, we talked about that episode as just doing it as a flashback of when Patricia was a teenager and showing what happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then we were like, well, we have this amazing actress who's so funny, it'd be so much more fun to watch this 40-year-old woman running through
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's more fun to learn what happened by her telling these other women, you know, like, because there's still the the question of what really happened.
[SPEAKER_03]: How did it actually go down?
[SPEAKER_03]: But we so we still get to see the bookie man, but we don't.
[SPEAKER_03]: We don't get to remove a little bit of the veil and the mystery of what happened.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I mean, but that is a question like what I still have a lot of questions about the boogie man or hope we're not completely done with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: We see, so he's burned and there's just bullets in the ashes, so I presume he's gone, but
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, why couldn't he be killed in the first place that reminds me obviously of Richard Warren who we'll talk about in a moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: And also, I think it's interesting when she's talking about it to be sheer Patricia's theory is the island corrupt.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she thinks he was created through the corruption of the island.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think about these theories?
[SPEAKER_03]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_03]: I would ask whether the reason is even a one boogie man like why do we need to think this is even the same guy could this just be created by the island as a manifestation for a couple days and then just disappears or wanders into the sea and comes back and
[SPEAKER_03]: there's no reason they buried him in the basement and that's where he popped out of so it seems like is one entity okay so it's the same entity do we have any understanding of the rules of this that they couldn't just make another one like i i i i do think like the fact that i couldn't remember exactly how this wrapped up is testament to
[SPEAKER_03]: how much this didn't come back in the rest of the season.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't some grand part of the lore in the same way that the the sea witch that sits on your face just kind of has gone now like it may just be a one-off thing that maybe it comes back every season or maybe never again.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we're going to get a completely different take on any of this.
[SPEAKER_03]: The Bogeman
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, so it's interesting because on the one hand, there's stuff like the sea witch or like the tentacle creature that Wick talks about to another point.
[SPEAKER_00]: It seems like the island just manifests things.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the voices and the radios, it keeps doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then the boogie man presumably, he like had a house lived in town so presumably, or another comp for that would be Willy the clown.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was, seems like that was a real person who was corrupted by the island as Patricia would say and became, I don't know, in the bookie man's case supernatural.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't know about the clown.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I kind of see it again as that Stephen King influence where I don't think it's a throwaway line for them to say in the last episode that you know he prefers a little bit you know he likes fear because it gives them a better taste.
[SPEAKER_01]: So to me that indicates that these different monsters are in some way a manifestation of one's greatest fear.
[SPEAKER_01]: So whether
[SPEAKER_01]: wig is just guilt written over what happened, you know, with the, you know, and has, I don't want to say invented, but that guilt just became the sea creature.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if Patricia is feeling, a little bit guilty about maybe not telling the right story, you know, does her fear about that, especially after her, her,
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, her little party when a rye if she if there's just something in there that the island says okay we're going to throw the bookie man back at you because that's your manifestation.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's that's still where I am.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm still in in a good way like at a certain point not that they're in their head and imaginary because that's not true but I think that's why they come up I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I would say like the show is telling us.
[SPEAKER_03]: that it doesn't engage with the realities of this much.
[SPEAKER_03]: So think about the actual sheriff was there when this all went down with the gunshot.
[SPEAKER_03]: And yet, and we see an actual coroner or someone working at a creamatorium or something, burning this thing, but there's no talk on the town about, oh, the identity of this person that's been living here is this, but like the actual way this intersex with people's lived reality is almost in a surreal
[SPEAKER_03]: sitcom way we're like you just reset the next week almost like nothing happened so I I hate to say none of it matters because that's the path down getting frustrated with the show one day, but I think is there's almost
[SPEAKER_03]: a capital R real and a lowercase R real and like this really happened, but did not capital R really happen maybe on some level.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like the the impact of it is treated almost as irrelevant in this show.
[SPEAKER_03]: It seems which is really interesting.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like there could be a whole episode of the aftermath of the of the boogie man being real and everybody realizes Patricia was being true and who is this demonic guy but nope, none of it gone.
[SPEAKER_03]: Next thing never mentioned
[SPEAKER_03]: but nobody's sitting in that shelter talking about it either, like it's really much on to the next thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they're almost telling us not to engage in these conversations.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, here we are.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'm more interested.
[SPEAKER_00]: I, you know, whether or not the boogeyman himself comes back, I'm doubting it, but I'm more interested in what is the through line, corrective influence that's creating all of these entities?
[SPEAKER_00]: What is the common thread between them?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: uh... so we're gonna take a quick break here when we come back we're gonna go back to the beginning we're gonna talk about the founder and his bloodline as lovingly laid out by rosemary
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so I want to start out with this quote, Furly Sashared, this article from Deadline on the Discord.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is brilliant bit in it about Hamish Link later, who plays Richard Warren, the founder.
[SPEAKER_00]: The actor admitted some similarities to his role in the 2021 Netflix Limited series Midnight Mass, explaining why he risked type casting to play another quote, bad leader of a parish on a little fishing island in the Apple TV plus series from Katie Dippold.
[SPEAKER_00]: you definitely worry that people will only think of you as a bad leader of a parish on a little fishing island he told to cider.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then you start getting jealous and you're like, I don't want to see anybody else run a haunted little island better than me.
[SPEAKER_00]: So then you've got to defend your territory.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that's great.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's really great.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know we talk about, I mean, Betty Gilpin was just terrific in this, you know, just right away.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know we'll kind of go into the deep end.
[SPEAKER_00]: But speaking of Mrs. Davis.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yes, yes, exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I, I was at first, it's funny that he says that because I was at first, a tweet bit annoyed.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, really can't turn on somebody else to, you know, play
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, then I just got over myself, you know, I just said, no, let me just, you know, absorb the character.
[SPEAKER_01]: He certainly doesn't look at, look that much like him in the sense of the hair.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then in the next episode, all the makeup and the zombie, the zombification of him.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, at first I was a little annoyed.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, really?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this is such a referential show.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd love all of the references to other things.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if it's a literal actor too, then great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Especially if it's English too, and Glitter, I do like him.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think part of why I liked him more as a zombie or whatever or extremely supernaturally aged man in the subsequent episodes is there was a satire to that and maybe I wanted them to play the flashback a little less straight because you can be like, yeah, on this, on this
[SPEAKER_03]: Priest, that's got this demonic element, though, midnight mass not to get spoilery.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, he's actually very sweet in his nature in that show.
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe a little more parody of that would have been welcome, I think, because we got that later.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I really think they handled him as this.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, what would it actually be to have this like 300-year-old guy in your boat or whatever, just a maybe a little more?
[SPEAKER_03]: And the same, you know, and
[SPEAKER_03]: I haven't seen Mrs. Davis, but like I've seen Betty Gilpin in glow and stuff and she's kind of a straight man in a comedic situation in that that works really well and it's a little more of that one of the could the priest that the pastor could he have been a little cookier like
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's the only thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought from a lower building perspective, this was nice.
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe it would have structurally worked better in bits and pieces for me, like five minutes per episode or something, so then I didn't feel like it was heavy.
[SPEAKER_03]: But so, but yeah, I get it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Once it was over, I was glad I'd watched it, you know?
[SPEAKER_03]: But it doesn't work as well, maybe as some of the other episodes.
[SPEAKER_03]: That is very much just a my opinion in taste.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I mean, I really enjoyed it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think more, it's not my favorite episode of the season.
[SPEAKER_00]: I liked it the first time I enjoyed it more on rewatch.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not just for the lower building, so we find out that 1702 is when Sarah Westcott, the Betty Gilpin character, goes to Widow's Bay to Mary Richard Warren.
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, you feel for her in that situation where she's apparently 40, you know, she's on married and especially in those times, there's this, oh, well, then you're just your life is over your spinster now, idea.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so she shows up and you know, just daring to hope and people
[SPEAKER_00]: situation where she's literally being boarded into her house.
[SPEAKER_00]: And what I like about it also, I think, is that I don't, it's some small part of me understands Richard Warren a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I wonder if he is in a way of warning for Tom, because at the end of the day, I think Richard Warren did the things he did because he wanted to protect his children, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we get that in the subsequent episode where how meaningful it was for him to see his children's things and then smash in the eyeballs of the, you know, head of his wife there.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he was clearly very upset that
[SPEAKER_01]: She essentially killed them by trying to leave the island, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I found on second watch, you know, the things where when Sarah Westcott is absolutely panicked, seeing him go after the doctor, and she goes to the pastor, and she's like, you know, everyone said that, you know, being a Spencer was bad, but you know, now that I'm looking at this life, I kind of want to, you know, what's so big about it, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I picked up a lot of knitting done, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so she had that and then there was that other one where she busted into the committee meeting and said, you've got a kill, I'm now, and she's like, and then one of the, you know, committee members said, yeah, but think of your children, she's like, what?
[SPEAKER_01]: I knew them for a day, you know, she didn't think of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there were little things, but, you know, to Mark's point, I didn't really hone in on it until a rewatch.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't as overtly funny as the other episodes.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do wonder, so I'm thinking like, are there just like the whatever the entity is?
[SPEAKER_00]: Does the entity just have like a greatest hits playlist of favorite types of atrocities to inflict on the inhabitants of the island until it gets what it wants?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like there seems, in 1702, we find out that there was a plague tied to a fog.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we've already seen
[SPEAKER_00]: a fog.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's also we've heard several stories about storms throughout, so that's one of the ones it goes to.
[SPEAKER_00]: These singular serial killer entities that seems to be something it goes back to again and again.
[SPEAKER_00]: What I've been interesting about Richard between the two episodes, the two Richard episodes, is in 1702, he says about the entity, it is not the devil, it is our God.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then once he's woken up after thinking in his coffin for centuries, he says, I thanked God, but something else came to me, a demon, the island itself.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it seems like, I don't know, he feels remorse, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Even though he signed the pact with his own blood, seeming in feces.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, he had a probably a long time to think about his own religious religiosity.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was probably picking a part.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there a god?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's come to the conclusion that, well, I thank God, but something else came.
[SPEAKER_01]: He definitely had a lot of time to think.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do wonder if in a future season, season two or something, they'll bring Hamish link later back in Chauice Moore, like for example, why he killed his first wife.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he's got a, he's got a random, I know, but killing Brent on the top is like, yeah, but why, yeah, sure, but why his wife.
[SPEAKER_00]: You think, the mother of his children can just send for another one, you know.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, is there a discovery of what he's doing or something?
[SPEAKER_03]: That would probably be the thing, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, yeah, she'd take it well or something.
[SPEAKER_03]: as one might not, um, the blood semen and feces, signing a pact.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's quite the scene to walk in on.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think if you're somebody's wife, leader or no leader.
[SPEAKER_00]: I loved when he said it to Tom Tom, like, immediately dropped the scroll and like wiped his hands.
[SPEAKER_03]: But see, that's great.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's second episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's almost like the writer of that second episode, the seventh episode, specifically
[SPEAKER_03]: because they could have had that a line about bloodsemen and PCs being eyebrow-raising moment in the actual flashback.
[SPEAKER_03]: But instead it was commentary on the flashback or reflection of the flashback and it's interesting that they are different writers because they give the first, you know, the writers get to look at each other's scripts and work together and kind of play off of each other to a certain extent.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Probably because of writers' room.
[SPEAKER_03]: Obviously the showrunners are, but.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I think it's interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: So are we supposed to understand that the warrants house is the future salty whale because that's a sacrificial chair was underneath?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or is it just tunnels all through the town?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because we know it also connects to that whale next to the church.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's a good point.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_03]: Good question.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think clearly there's a tunnel system
[SPEAKER_00]: I did love the bit in the first episode, though, where so Pastor Collins asked Sarah to help him kill Richard.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so someone comes in to stab her and she just like point to the other side of the band.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, not me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know why.
[SPEAKER_01]: He sleeps on the other side a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was a great guy, though.
[SPEAKER_03]: I had to rewatch that scene, though, to figure out exactly what was going on.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Who was stabbing who?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: OK.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was dark, here.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So then, and then, of course, we find out so Sarah flees with Richard's children, and they all start bleeding from their eyes and mouth once they get to that boundary line except for Francis, the girl, because she, who is missing part of one finger, she fell out of the boat and washes back ashore with the brooch that Sarah gave her, and we find out that she was raised and later married by Barnabes Fisher, the wailer.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, I would actually track, but yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that broach comes back later, and does it matter?
[SPEAKER_03]: For anything more than emotional sort of weight of history, of moving on.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why do you think he threw it in the bay at the end?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that part of him that just wishes is a could all go away.
[SPEAKER_01]: Screw all this, emotional reaction kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And enough people know what the brush means.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, meaning wick or some others.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, I don't want this to be near Evan at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: So let me just throw out the water.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he's got to know things, tides go back and things come ashore.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought more is an emotional beat.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I would really not be surprised if it washes back up though.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, 100%.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I agree.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's probably more of an emotional thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was funny when Tom pulls down the painting of Frances Warren under her self and very, very well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, like Rose Mary, I keep trying to pin down what kind of... What does her deal?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, she was trolling in there, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: She's like, oh, sorry, pushing it on and it's tough.
[SPEAKER_00]: And gosh, why was I expecting man behind her, the big muscle guy behind the house?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was surprised something crazy with her didn't happen during the shelter scene.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_03]: But it didn't.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's just rosemary, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: I do wonder by the way, why Richard Warrens has a headless statue.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's just like they're seeing all these things they could explore or could just leave it as a headless statue, whatever, kids be kids, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, yeah, it would be fun actually to see flashbacks of Tom as a teenager and compare to Evan.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because we've had some stories.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to see, I'm looking at your next part of the notes.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to see Whick as a teenager.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to see young Whick because he's got stories.
[SPEAKER_03]: Rosemary too, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: That's stories.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Agreed.
[SPEAKER_00]: And his gauld joy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Jerry.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, before we get to the boat, the jaw scene, okay, I did think it was really funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: We didn't say yet about Patricia's notes for when Richard was woken up and she said, are you mad at something I said?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god.
[SPEAKER_01]: and was such a keen insight into who she Patricia is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's so recognizable, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't make this about you Patricia, but she's also like the most helpful of all of them, too.
[SPEAKER_00]: But also, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Who said never separate a woman from her purse?
[SPEAKER_00]: But okay, logistical question, when Tom wakes up before this bit is he said he had been asleep for a day like he was sleeping on the toilet for a day and where was Evan during all this?
[SPEAKER_01]: Where was Evan during all this?
[SPEAKER_00]: With his new girlfriend?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think so probably with his friends, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but okay, the was we have the jaws boat ride with with the coffin argument and by the way saying fuck you is something that was also said in 1702.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we haven't evolved our curse words yet, but I do think Rick, you know, he looks like the loony guy that we're getting at the season, but he's really starting to show his wisdom here and you know, he's, it sounds cruel, but he says don't can't trust a man that knows death.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's coming for him.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's not wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's not wrong, 100 percent.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, and he, it's because he, that happened to him, he thought, well, surely I will save my best friend.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he, he's obviously shocked with himself that his reaction was to let go.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for him, definitely, it's very real for him.
[SPEAKER_01]: He can't trust
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because he, uh, he was dating Jerry, the historian and he let her, he not only let her brother die, he kind of contributed to it, because they're pushed or whatever, yeah, kick some ego.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because they were being attacked by a tentacle monster and he's like, take him, not me.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I think.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's where he's coming from.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's definitely haunting him.
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think about?
[SPEAKER_03]: Wick might be my favorite character, just to watch him in Patricia.
[SPEAKER_03]: I would say the two of them.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, over the season, it's, you know, he starts off the crazy person, but he's the crazy person that might actually be right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Of course, that's the trope he is.
[SPEAKER_03]: But what I like about it is he became full allies with Tom.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like there wasn't the tension of, oh, wicks the crazy person.
[SPEAKER_03]: that got dispensed with very early on and it let's you I think appreciate the humor in the situation like the gravity of his character and what he's saying but the lightheartedness like it's not the laughs it like the laugh at how silly the person is became more rosemary right and maybe do a lesser extent Ruth and in some things like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think it's the relationship with Tom getting sort of settled because Tom, I was pretty down on Tom in the first four episodes.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you remember like I was like, this guy is not really a pro tag and it's like, once he crosses the threshold of like, I will accept this reality.
[SPEAKER_03]: He becomes a much more likable character, which lets me appreciate the little gang, the like, adventuring party they create a lot.
[SPEAKER_03]: Everybody's quirks complement each other really well.
[SPEAKER_03]: And Wick is a huge part of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I do love in general getting the gang together stories, you know, forming the posse.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, for me, that a lot of half of this season did shine also because especially the three of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now, oh, Bashir is full in on it for season two.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I guess that's the four of them are going to be the Scooby gang going into season two.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love the level of talent.
[SPEAKER_00]: They brought in also just for small things for this.
[SPEAKER_00]: So from our discord, a motor riders, D said, oh, and this C-Shanty in episode seven was written by Richard Reperry of Arcade Fire.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I'll put a link to Richard Reperry's Instagram post about it with a clip of the song in the show notes.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, the rest of the score was composed by David Fleming, but it's, again, it's cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is something obviously with the talent involved people are like, oh, yeah, I want to contribute.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now I think season two, that'll be even more so than ever.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I do hope they don't become some cameo fast.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not worried about it because I think that there's the taste level, like I said, but I just, yeah, I hope they hold back and like, oh, everyone, all their famous friends went to get involved.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's okay, they don't have to.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we have this thing where they take Richard past the boundary into the so-called dead zone, you know, Richard's willing at first and not, and then all that's left behind is bones and Vienna Weenards.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then like for a day, they think it's all over, but obviously we as an audience at home know that there's more episodes left.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what did you think at that point?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, that was very short lived and you know, because we know there's another living descendant.
[SPEAKER_00]: But did you expect it to last longer?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I think they did a really great job of giving us just enough of our characters thinking that it was over.
[SPEAKER_01]: I definitely felt buoyant, relieved, happy for them, and really bonded Tom with his son about you really began to really see and feel.
[SPEAKER_01]: what Evan was missing out on, what Tom felt he was, I was thinking, my God, yeah, he can't even go to a Red Sox game.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, what does he need to do about college?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and so that was really helpful, but I didn't need it to go on longer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, you know, then it did because I knew, you know, they zoomed into the painting, you know, I think after that episode and you know, someone survived and you're like, okay, so they're going to be happy for like two minutes and then we're going to be like, oh crap.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I would say, because we were all hypothesizing that there would be more in a sentence, especially because of the painting with the kid falling out and all that stuff people are making me'm piecing this together, it added this extra layer of dread when he gives him the red socks tickets and stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, oh, no, don't try to go.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then it was almost like, oh, food, there's a storm coming, they can't.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's not going to see his son die on the ferry as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, true, true.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mark, what did you think of Rose Mary's presentation of the genealogy of Richard Warren?
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's it's just long enough that you I started zoning out a little bit in like like it's it was so clearly just kind of almost be taken as nonsense like you almost wonder if if she improvised some of that obviously there was a there was a list of an image she would really looking at but all the stuff about lesbians and all of their died like you could it's almost so.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't like the way you're saying, let's be it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: But more of the performative, yeah, 2026 speak from some of the characters.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I, I just, there's something about the way she delivers it, that feels like she's got to be a really good, like improv comedian or something, her sense of timing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't get it just in the sense it's overwhelming kind of and that's I think part of that's fine.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's what it's supposed to be because I've just like almost looking at my watch going like this is there's someone at the end of this list and she's not getting there fast.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and I was like how did she put that all together so fast.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I was a little confused by that too.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, clearly, she's got to either she's had this in her back pocket and she understands it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And now just needs to write it out on, you know, those slides.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you know, I was just kind of like, oh, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: On the town hall, one of the many signs of things that are there is the genealogy department.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they said, yeah, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: They did say that she already had information on Barnabas's
[SPEAKER_00]: descendancy.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I guess she that makes all that together.
[SPEAKER_03]: What is her job?
[SPEAKER_03]: What is her role?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like what did she do?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean she yeah she works in the office.
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess genealogy is her focus, but I don't know we just know her as an employee.
[SPEAKER_03]: But genealogy, this doesn't come up often.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like she's not a full time.
[SPEAKER_03]: They have a historical person, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Right, right, right.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's so unclear to me what hurt.
[SPEAKER_00]: Although, I mean, I guess she does whatever they need her to do, you know, like handing out fires for the cocktail hour.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do think it's funny that I understand why you say that it dragged on the watching her give that whole genealogy talk.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is interestingly the one, a scene that I hear people talk about rewatching the most.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's the first time you do it, there is like this stress because you're with Tom, we're like, just tell us who it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then when you're rewatching, you're like, oh, it's going to Ruth and you start like luxuriating the details of her, you know, crankiness and her kind crankiness.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they, it's like this specific personality.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know if I've seen another character quite like her.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know I think I read in an interview that Matthew Rees said that that episode was one of the hardest to keep a straight face in just they just kept laughing because still Dickie was so amazing and I think I'm sure she probably improves some things that they kept in so
[SPEAKER_00]: Why heard them in an interview somewhere, I can't remember where someone was saying that that was an enormous amount for her to memorize, so I don't think it was written now, because also there was all the visual props and everything to very helpful.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think that this is another one of those places where they're seeding all this lore, so that in future seasons they can expand on these stories.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think, yeah, so that, and then you can point back, like, oh, see, it was all laid out in season one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so Tom, they find out it's Ruth.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, Rick is very pro, kill Ruth, and the curse.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Patricia is very, all life is valuable.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'll say, don't put me in on our discord, put up a poll.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we do have an empathetic discord 63% said the question was what do you do to the final warrant a sentence 63% said and form her of her genealogy and what it means 25% do not protect her in the storm and hope she dies 13% actively kill her no one said do nothing What would you guys do
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I probably would have done what Tom did.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think he was trying, when he was getting into the trolley problem and the philosophy and who would you save.
[SPEAKER_01]: I definitely felt that he hoped that she would be like, well, of course, I would kill the one person.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because he was very upset with her.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, really?
[SPEAKER_01]: You'd let them all die.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was very upset about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I probably would have approached it like Tom did.
[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe try and give her the choice.
[SPEAKER_01]: I, you know, but, you know, I'm not a parent, so I don't know what this feels like, like you do anything for your kid.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: You tell her about what's happening.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: If she's, you know, what is she in her 80s maybe, 84?
[SPEAKER_03]: You could think that was a short-term problem to deal with, but then she just literally live forever.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a sheet.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, because I was going to say if she's the last descendant, but I don't think it matters because Richard was not the last descendant yet he was still kept alive.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it's the oldest descendant.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: So maybe it passed to her when he died or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: But she was already super healthy.
[SPEAKER_00]: We saw there's like a wow next to her thyroid score, which actually means she has hyper thyroid, which isn't necessarily healthy.
[SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, and then we saw her like, she's like, oh, I just did two miles, and then she does this little jog up this step, and he looks so despondent.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh wow, look at that, give me a step.
[SPEAKER_01]: God, she's healthy, gosh, I hate it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I do wonder if there is
[SPEAKER_00]: something going on more about her.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad that she survived for a few reasons.
[SPEAKER_00]: One is just to pick up on the Charlie problem thing that you brought up.
[SPEAKER_00]: She actually was a real source of wisdom and kind of like a cold comfort, where she said, you know, about the Charlie problem, the runaway Charlie is life.
[SPEAKER_00]: The lever is me.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't control the bad things that happen in life, Tom, but if I pull that lever, it's a choice and I'm choosing to kill that person and I could never do
[SPEAKER_00]: And we see like she this is a consistent philosophy for her.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a good things come to those who wait We'll come back to the Tennessee Williams thing separately in a moment, but she's she's worried about Tom that she says like you just need to accept that life is a house of hers It's that's all that makes sense to you Mark as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: I I
[SPEAKER_03]: was wondering through all of that conversation, especially when she's laying supply in like, he's about to smother her.
[SPEAKER_03]: How much of this is a manipulation?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, what is she, is this just her earnest way of life or does she know what he's trying to do?
[SPEAKER_03]: Is she, like, we know that she has any idea about any of this because it never comes out.
[SPEAKER_03]: He doesn't mention any of it, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So we can't gauge a reaction to learning about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that changes how you would handle it, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: She is controlling the scenario, manipulating the situation, or is she completely sort of like she's alluding, you know?
[SPEAKER_03]: sort of just the world is moving around you and you are just a sort of passive participant in the world.
[SPEAKER_03]: But she is engaging in the trolley problem in a more deliberate way if she knows about her role in this curse, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I do wonder if she knew that he was there to kill her or if she's messing with him sometimes in some ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, but then I also like this show makes me conspiratorial and like oh, she keeps talking about that herb garden She actually one of the witches or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was I was combing her calendar Which of course, you know, we see all the nice stuff like apparently she helps dear dron and off the porch every day Which maybe we just need to get this woman a ramp, but okay But then all the other things that came up on her calendar Well when she was like she had a
[SPEAKER_00]: list like snacks that get snacks at Evan likes and energy drinks for him and a bunch of other miscellaneous things but also there's weekly or bi-weekly trivia or bingo nights calls with Francis which granted is a isn't common enough name but this is interesting that's the same as Francis Warren aqua robics gardening club librarians knitting classes
[SPEAKER_00]: the devil.
[SPEAKER_00]: But also we have not seen any goats and if there is livestock on that island, why was where was it when the storm came?
[SPEAKER_00]: Ah, didn't have the budget.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I'm just kidding.
[SPEAKER_01]: our university campus hosts Goat Yoga twice a year.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, that's very interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, one of the, what kind, I was very surprised, probably, again, I clearly seem to be Tom in this scenario, but I was really surprised at how Lucent and Busy
[SPEAKER_01]: She was, because I'm like, who is this woman who we sporadically got to see throughout the season, who just seemed like she was sweet, but really couldn't connect A to B to C in so many ways, and the fact that she's tired and all that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I definitely could understand how maybe that's a part she's playing when she's at work, and she's that way over here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I kind of chalk her
[SPEAKER_01]: Like many other elderly on the island in current day, it's just, look, we know about this curse, you know, and we just, we're just going to live with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a part of our lives.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's just what it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she struck me is just being.
[SPEAKER_01]: not that she's uncaring about anybody, obviously, but, you know, it's just, yeah, you know, hey, life's a bitch, you know, enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I do agree with something since Nadi Joe brought up in the discord.
[SPEAKER_00]: He said this show did let me down with regard to the T. There's no way Ruth doesn't notice all that flavor in her own T.
[SPEAKER_00]: maybe if he'd made her some strange she that she wasn't familiar with but she's got to notice that stuff and some of the it's really familiar and made herself especially since no appearance of milk or mention of sweetener and and I did I did think about that as well and that's one reason why I wonder if she's playing along but then in another point she goes she reaches for it to drink more of her
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: They leave it up in the air.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not even sure if they know I was struck while watching that how terrible I would be at poisoning somebody because I was just Watching Tom going like do you know which one is yours?
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you know which one is yours?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like how How would how is he not what we know of Tom not sweating bullets?
[SPEAKER_01]: holding and keeping his eye on the one hand or her like so nervous like there's something about that the way that was shot to especially since he's already had a he's already had a really bad drink in the season that he wasn't meant to you know throw down and it turns out he's loaded up on mushrooms so yeah I agree market be kind of like let's be really careful
[SPEAKER_03]: It's interesting, because the tension of this moment, I know we learned a lot and you talked about kind of experiencing it like the shock of Tom realizing his his late wife is actually her daughter and his his gradual horror realizing his son is now the the holder of this curse, but the show is also comedic so like I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: watching her expression if I'm supposed to interpret it like we've been talking about like oh is she hiding something or no she's just goofy because it's kind of goofy it's interesting that that question of what is real versus like actually happening real right um i don't know if her
[SPEAKER_03]: Not tasting the tea and that being improbable matters sort of because it's supposed to be kind of funny, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I do, yeah, I said I was going to hold aside that Tennessee Williams quote she brings up because it was part of the sweet stuff that she said, uh, the quote she said is, the world is violent and mercurial, it will have its way with you and then she said she couldn't read the part that says, we are saved only by love, love for each other and the love that we pour into the art we feel compelled to share, being a parent, being a writer, being a painter, being a friend.
[SPEAKER_00]: and then she read.
[SPEAKER_00]: We live in a perpetually burning building and what we must say from it all the time is love and that's the part that's most quoted.
[SPEAKER_00]: But what's interesting about this quote and and I have to credit motor riders to you again for sharing this a post from Macedon of this
[SPEAKER_00]: this writer referring to James Grissom actually no Tennessee Williams and I read the whole thing it's a riveting read I will put it in the show notes as well but basically there's this guy James Grissom who wrote this book about Tennessee Williams in giving him interviews toward the end of his life and then interviewing a bunch of like the actresses and stuff he worked with that he talked about and putting it together in this book in this book and
[SPEAKER_00]: It seems like all this was made up or most of it was made up and actually this quote, we live in a perpetually burning building quote, doesn't even come from that book.
[SPEAKER_00]: It comes from one of his random social media posts because he would just keep manifesting it seems allegedly new things and like people, some people were quoted as saying, anytime someone died, we knew that he was going to release something about
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I actually interviewed that person, and this is what they said to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this, quote, this alleged Tennessee Williams quote, very good chance, it was just written by this guy, James Grissum, and attributed to him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but so we we got the double fake out where we we all thought Evan was going to be the descendant and then we were like, oh, no, it's roof and then it's like, oh, no, it actually still is Evan.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it was so sweet that she's been babysitting her grandson the whole time, even if like she.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: She does seem kind of naive like she granted his request for a ladder for fire safety.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it was cute.
[SPEAKER_01]: She had, I think, one of his earlier as a child, one of his not paintings, but construction paper and a turkey hand and all of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was really sweet and
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious if you two ever thought that yeah, there's no way Ruth was the final descendant.
[SPEAKER_01]: Did we all think that, yeah, no, it's got to be Evan, right, eventually?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, once, like I thought it was Evan, but then once they said Ruth, I think I just, I might have just accepted that for that week, until she starts, and then soon as Ruth starts talking and telling her stories and I'm like, oh no, she, this illegitimate child, it's totally gonna be Evan's mom.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do we have a good sense of why she wouldn't have just said that I'm your grandma?
[SPEAKER_03]: What is there to gain even tiding it from Tom like all those years like why?
[SPEAKER_00]: Once once the parents died once the lot like once let's say
[SPEAKER_03]: Tom's late wife is grown at this point.
[SPEAKER_03]: She knows realizes who she is, probably the daughter did too.
[SPEAKER_03]: Why is it still a secret at this point?
[SPEAKER_00]: who does it protect sort of this is also she she said it quite readily and obviously she wasn't going to bring it up in the office I suppose so and Tom wouldn't go to her house so I wonder if that's that's why because like Tom just never let her get close enough to reveal such a thing before
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, she did say Ruth did say she was, you know, telling the story that she would go to see her daughter in the hospital after the stroke and say, I'm your secret mommy, so they definitely wanted to protect her, you know, so maybe that's why she didn't say anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know, she, she wants her daughter and whatever, you know, the baby daddy and that side of the family would still be impacted by the truth.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, yes, the her the baby daddy might be gone as is the, you know, stepmother, but, you know, that that's the only thing I can think of in terms of like who she's protecting in some way, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, I mean, yeah, it's a good question.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think that Tom was kind of shot himself in the foot by being such a missing rope.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, well, he says that to her.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, you know, it's not that, you know, Lauren didn't tell me this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just chose not to listen and he really regrets that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that definitely seems to be a big character, or a character theme to him, is that, you know, if I just listened, but just paid attention, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's funny, Ruth is so insightful in some ways, but in other ways, she puts up an early 2000s niece on centrons, his poise in their cars.
[SPEAKER_03]: Legendary muscle car, the Nissan Centra.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god, but yeah, when Bashir showed up and shot Ruth in the back of the head, I mean, it seems like she survived at the end, so yeah, wondering if she got that that Richard Warren juice, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like an ear scrape or yeah, that I like, like, chucked it as, like, seriously.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, because, because Tom was like, no, and moved to something probably.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it was just, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was struck by this sort of dignity of not having that moment be glory at all, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: We don't see anything.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this show has had some gross out stuff that's happened.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that was completely essentially off camera like the angle like she just goes down.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And she she's got blood on her hand when she's cupping her head when they turn her over.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, which maybe is, you know, our clue that she survived, but but also it's just
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I said, kind of like offering the character some more dignity than maybe having her head blow up all over everybody, which is what this show could do, I think.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but I did wonder also, I was kind of yelling at Tom when he was trying to kill her, I was like, we don't know what would happen if you did manage to kill the last descendant.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, at the very least, I would say, get everyone else off the island because I would imagine like all people who can go because I would imagine that all hell would break loose, maybe somewhat literally.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the island could just sink into the ocean or something.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I can't say anything.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, you broke the deal.
[SPEAKER_03]: Fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, be like the house at the end of, oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_01]: Steven Spielberg.
[SPEAKER_01]: At the end of the island.
[SPEAKER_03]: Poltergeist.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what the house just collapsed about itself.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_03]: Boy looks for a 40 year old movie.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I, I was surprised the Patricia told Bashir what she was up to and so I wonder if like because obviously because she said she wanted protect Ruth does this mean a that she part of her was like oh we do have to kill this lady because she did seem relieved when she thought it was done at the end when the storm stopped or did she think that Bashir was going to protect Ruth.
[SPEAKER_00]: She would be dumb to think that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Considering, you know, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So no, I don't think that is it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think if I remember when she was trying to distract Bashir from what was going on in an earlier episode and she in the sheriff's car tells what we don't see her tell Bashir anything nor do we know exactly what she told him.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's deliberately, you know, been held.
[SPEAKER_01]: But, and we again don't know what she told Bashir in this final episode, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's, there's definitely some tension there.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's meant to be clear, I think.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because he's down to her also.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like she was talking about the bookie man, he's like, I don't want to hear any more of this crazy shit, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then later she was like, oh wait, no, but I have to tell you about, yeah, you know, baby's born in the island, can't leave thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, his baby has to be born there, so that he stays the show, sorry.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but it was really great to demonstrate, you know, two sides of the same coin, again, like we alluded to earlier, Richard Warren definitely cared very much about his children in the way that he could and was devastated that, you know, they would die by leaving the island.
[SPEAKER_01]: Tom, of course, that's his whole reason of being, you know, throughout the entire season.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think there's an episode that goes by without him, while other than the flashback, where Tom is like, is Evan OK.
[SPEAKER_01]: is seven okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just that is his, you know, returning thought, just constant thought.
[SPEAKER_01]: Number one is seven okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's part of him that was like, you know, and then the other part was he's just a really teenager is seven okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so to have him wrestle with that choice and then to have Bashir come in and be like, yep, no question.
[SPEAKER_01]: Boom, you know, because I'm not going to have
[SPEAKER_01]: need to see those two reactions in tension with one another and I think that will work really well in season two because that's that's going to be a big conflict you know Tom obviously didn't say who it was but she or I think is probably smart enough to figure out that it's probably Evan and so what is what is that you know so what's I going to be like in season two meh um and I just wonder what what the rules are for richest descendants because obviously a lot of
[SPEAKER_00]: Is Ruth now immortal because she's she's oldest or something does this affect Evan in any way is his mom really dead I'm having doubts about that, but we'll talk about her separately in a bit and I'm also wondering things like you know just all these we'll talk about a chef later later on
[SPEAKER_00]: Patricia has an off-hand comment.
[SPEAKER_00]: I learned my biological age is 28, which is a thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of people Patricia looks younger than she is, and usually that is translated into your organs of your younger things like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I just wonder if there's something
[SPEAKER_00]: I think in season two, they're probably going to discover the boosts they get from this demon protection.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because we can have the age of everybody throughout the season.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is another good place for a quick break and then when we come back, we're going to talk about the end of the season and some highlights from the mysteries still left on the table.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I have a thunderstorm starting here just as we're about to talk about the storm of the century in the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you hear 40 sound effects, that's fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: Cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Amsterdam decided to join the podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: The skies above Amsterdam.
[SPEAKER_00]: By the way, we've been making a lot of jokes about the closing the door on the man, GIF, where the older man's talking about the storm of 1783, and then Ash, Wednesday, no Easter of 62, that lasted five days, and Patricia saw the shots that were on him, that the actor was Ed Pied, and he passed away in December of 2025.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this was his final role.
[SPEAKER_00]: final role that I think people are going to be recognizing for a long time, you know, he's memorable.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is he just in those two scenes that scene and then later in the shelter?
[SPEAKER_03]: And above the other in the season also.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think we've seen him early in the season as far as I know.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we found out here in the bunker, Shell is waiting the Bashir's wife is waiting to give birth.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love the Dr. Morgan's come back.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, here's my question about Dr. Morgan.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we've seen him a few like fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: We saw him at the party.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was off the clock.
[SPEAKER_00]: But we've seen him doctoring twice with Tom's wound and with obviously was Shell being pregnant.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he seems to throw things out there and then get very defensive when people question him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do we think that he actually has assertifications that he pretends to have?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he strikes me as just that, you know, small island doctor who's been doing this for years has his medical degree and yeah, I didn't think it weird at all that he was like, excuse me, you know, he just seems like that cranky-ish kind of character that we see on the island.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's weird though, he's probably not from the island, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because he has a medical degree, he has a medical school there, but he has that kind of almost immune to the insanity going on around him.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's some of the other old timers that are native.
[SPEAKER_03]: See, like if we think of like Rosemary and Ruth kind of in that category, someone who's been there for years and kind of just isn't phased by how actual crazy this is that he would harp on like, I'm sorry, where did you get your medical license or whatever kind of stuff he has?
[SPEAKER_03]: feels like it's more of a rosemary move, but he's obviously someone who probably didn't come there until he was unless he grew up as a kid and then came back or whatever, but he didn't come there until he was a doctor, probably.
[SPEAKER_03]: He was hired like Bashir as an expert to come and work with the the diet.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, unless he got like, you know, he got his degree online or something, he must not have been born there.
[SPEAKER_03]: You've got a Instagram line back when he was, you know, in the 8 1980s or whatever, when he would have to go for it by mail, you used to be a thing, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Or, or like he's done, he just does not have any qualifications and he is a clap completely, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I do appreciate he's a fan of the opera fan.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was very weirdly atmospheric.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't remember.
[SPEAKER_03]: What do you mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: He was singing fan of the opera in sleep.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's saying to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Really?
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my god, I forgot that.
[SPEAKER_00]: When he was tending to show.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're like, well, what is this?
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, the bunker just, you know, 10 out of 10 for production design and, you know, the graphic designers on their team, too, with like the posters, the posters, with the bytes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think it's that weird to have human bytes on a poster, actually, because humans do buy each other a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the one that really caught my eye the first time was the how to subdue poster.
[SPEAKER_00]: The first time was like, what?
[SPEAKER_03]: in a doctor's office or no, that was in this shelter in the bunker of an emergency shelter.
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: How unfair is it that we had to listen to that same guy who complained that Kurt from the in smells like cabbages took a shit in a baby's diaper complain about they're not being enough moldy MREs and still water and somehow he's not the one that was fed to the island
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm also upset that PJ Evans, shitty friend, he locked for Kenny the custodian, which I have to give credit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Who was, I watched, was it heavy spoilers?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is something, and he pointed out that it was an I killed Kenny, they killed Kenny joke.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that was, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's great.
[SPEAKER_03]: Good eye, internet, good eye.
[SPEAKER_01]: A few bastards.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's funny.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: PJ killed him.
[SPEAKER_03]: He did.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's crazy to prank him basically and I wanted it to be PJ and it like why am I I why am I rooting for one of Evan's only friends as teenager to be the next one to go in the hatch.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because he's that big of a jerk.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because he literally just killed the guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: He is a big, and I don't like Evan's off island girlfriend Kelly either, she's so, well, yeah, the one who dug through, you know, Evan's father, Tom's, you know, bedroom and oh, let's go find juice about you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, honey, no, I was like, you're on dates, yeah, yeah, she's a problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's a problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I did love Dale, play by Jeff Hiller.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I'm going to quote Dope Amini said, I feel like Jeff Hiller is being tragically underused in this show.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's my only real gripe with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: He is gold, his performance in somebody somewhere, such a great show that way too many people slept on, was so funny and sincere.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't understand why they cast someone so excellent and to essentially not use him.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'll say, I agree, love somebody somewhere, and people should watch it if they have any of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was in my top 10 that year, but also, yeah, I wanted more from Jeff Hiller, and I hope there's more in new seasons, but I did have really appreciate him in this final episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this place is a death drop.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, run, run for your lives.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's going to be a meme forever.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
[UNKNOWN]: Ha ha ha.
[SPEAKER_00]: What did you think, Mark, of the Dharma Initiative, like, videos, that?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, this is the scene.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is the sequence when the episode, the season got me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I'm like, OK, bring it on next season here we come.
[SPEAKER_03]: Just the, the PA speaker.
[SPEAKER_03]: giving instructions.
[SPEAKER_03]: The video with the guy non-silently talking about like, you know, don't consult like, but it's a video instructing.
[SPEAKER_03]: It starts like it's instructing the, so you know, there's one.
[SPEAKER_03]: One for them and one for the prisoner guards or whatever they are.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the fact that
[SPEAKER_03]: Dale just doesn't respond really and then just freaks out in the most unhelpful way possible People a hundred people could have died because he did that right everybody charges the door that kind of thing never Shout fire in a movie theater listeners and
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I said, it implies like a love crafty and level to it, very Stephen Kingy, and two, yeah, this whole sequence is really excellent.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the chair, the way that it also weaves together so many different characters doing different things in what otherwise is a very small confined space.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think is pretty cool just from a sort of,
[SPEAKER_03]: not plotting, but just structural.
[SPEAKER_03]: The scenes of it all works really well.
[SPEAKER_03]: And Tom's not there at first, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And not until the end, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And so it's kind of, I don't know, it's just, I'm gushing about it enough, I think it's good.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm confused by some of what the implications on the like, sacrifice, like what really is needed to make the all the magic here work, I still didn't confuse by, but I'm here for the storytelling, that's for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we learn, of course, they need one soul for, for Bell toll.
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, I have do not beg.
[SPEAKER_00]: They tell the people on the loudspeaker.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I can solve them.
[SPEAKER_00]: They say it's the others in the video.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, so it seems like they have to go to the basement.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, but we'll come back to that I'm just wondering, what do you guys think?
[SPEAKER_00]: Tom's relationship with Evan has been a real focus of this season, and we've seen them make it a rough place for most of the season, and then kind of when Evan starts to find out truths about his mom, they seem to reconcile a bit more, but obviously now there's new secrets, like the fact that Evan is a descendant, and then on Evan's side, the fact that he sells PJ, shove this guy in there, and he disappeared, and that's what made the storm stop.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do we think they're going to talk to each other like I hope so, but I kind of don't think so?
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, not first for a story or a narrative, they wouldn't, if I, my thing of course with Tom is, they really, the writers made it quite clear that Tom is very rebellious and does not do what he has told.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if Tom gets real with him, explains, Evan, yeah, explains to the curse and so forth.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if I were Tom, I'd be fearful.
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course he wouldn't believe it and he would do everything he could to get off the island because clearly my dad is really kind of nuts and you know so Tom keeping it a secret things he's protecting you know his son and then um yeah I don't well I don't know you know we've seen behavior where he's like dad what's in the box you know and pulls up so maybe Evan will be eventually be the one to say yeah this weird thing happened in the shelter
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I don't feel any great confidence that Tom is going to open up to his son, but I feel like Evan has seen some things that he can't, he's, I don't see any reason why he's just going to dismiss it all, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Whether he goes to his dad or not, he saw one of the most terrific things anybody saw in this whole event, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: He saw a guy disappear, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: But point I made earlier about nobody's talking about the bookie man and who he is like, is anybody going to talk about Kenny?
[SPEAKER_03]: Kenny died.
[SPEAKER_03]: It seems that can come up.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is anybody concerned about that?
[SPEAKER_03]: Or is it like a dairy steven king thing where almost the brain lets it go and moves on because you have to.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, but it's easy enough to explain a way, Kenny died in the storm.
[SPEAKER_00]: The end, you know, nobody saw it, whatever it happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, must have.
[SPEAKER_00]: like like the shaman disappeared also just swept up in the storm.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's easy to dismiss that if you are.
[SPEAKER_03]: compelled to go in the direction of dismissing something.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's also easy to not dismiss it and say we need to investigate what happened to Kenny.
[SPEAKER_03]: But they probably won't, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: They'll probably do exactly what you said.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if they were to investigate what happened to Todd the Shaman, where would you even begin?
[SPEAKER_00]: He was swept up into his store and let until unless his body lands, but presumably it could easily be swept out to sea.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you might never see it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so okay, let's let's talk about the dead in these bells.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we got at the start of episode two, we got nine bells.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that means that the island once nine souls and I've to point out that this is after
[SPEAKER_00]: Chef Clark, the first person we saw died this season had already died and by the way, Chef has another weird age thing going on where his chart said that he was 37, despite looking at 70, and he, I paused in his chart and looked up his cholesterol levels, and his cholesterol and tried glycerides are extraordinarily low.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, and something else we are going on, but anyway.
[SPEAKER_00]: Chef definitely not counted in the bell toll.
[SPEAKER_00]: The people who died since Reverend Bryce took his own life obviously, I thought it first maybe he wanted to be one of the nine, but he's the only one who seems to have read the complete instructions that I presume others will find and it said something about a chamber on the north side of the rectory.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we still didn't find out with a chamber on the north side of the rectory is.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is where I'm confused.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know all this what this means, but my sense about the priest who Reverend, which I still am also confused about.
[SPEAKER_03]: It feels a little more like killing yourself to avoid having to do the thing that you're supposed to do.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't feel like, oh, I'm in account for one of the nine.
[SPEAKER_03]: What is that?
[SPEAKER_03]: It does that to you.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's still eight more.
[SPEAKER_03]: He probably knows best.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, my gosh.
[SPEAKER_03]: These instructions say I have to sacrifice these, these townspeople.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do not have the either the evil to that or the fortitude to do that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to take my life as a way to end that.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's the best I got.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know at all how this works in the sense of, is it, or should we be counting the number of people who died and does that add up to, or is it totally irrelevant to that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, let me run through.
[SPEAKER_00]: So then it means after we heard the bell toll, Reverend Bryce died.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some people brought up the C-hag died, but I don't think an island would count its own entities.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that, I don't think that counts.
[SPEAKER_00]: Richard died.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think the island would be happy about that either, so I can't imagine that he counts either because he left.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, then the other ones who died, the bookie man killed the EMT, the, also the gas station attendant, um, and then the bookie man was killed by Patricia, but again, it's own entity, um, Todd the Sharman and Kenny, the custodian.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think, even, you know, adding those all up, it's not nine, and I think, honestly, the only one of those who counts as Kenny, the custodians.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's why we end with eight bells.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, because also, in the past, in 1702, when we got that flashback, we hear five bells after Sarah arrives and at that time, we saw Richard start to feed the entity through the basement, didn't finish, so they're leaving that story open, they could go back to it if they wanted to, but we also saw as many people were dying at that time because there was
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't think it counts unless you do it the ritualized way through the door.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the bells are happening.
[SPEAKER_03]: The bells are tied up, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: The bells are super natural.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a super natural thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I mean, I'm wondering if like we're going to see an arc toward villainry of Tom, who will he become willing to like feed Island tourists or how will they get away with it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is this going to be like a Sweeney Todd situation?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, a debtster, you know, let me just, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it would be interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: We got an email from Ken W. He said so much great TV so far in 2026 and this did not disappoint.
[SPEAKER_00]: See sickness had me nonstop laughing throughout the whole episode quality.
[SPEAKER_00]: The season finale didn't really land for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: A rewatch might change that, but overall an excellent season.
[SPEAKER_00]: Keep up the amazing work so many pods, not enough ears, two plus speed, getting you there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm also a two plus speed listener.
[SPEAKER_00]: I absolutely recommend listening to me on two plus speed.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I thought we could check in on a couple of the mysteries that are still outstanding.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we have all the in stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've gone through it in depth before we won't now, but just to rattle them off,
[SPEAKER_00]: There's references to more provocative paintings that I would love to see.
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, those welcome to Widow's Bay videos that look like they're made at the same time as the bunker videos, so like 60s and there's also one point of flash of a dark presence lurking in the background, Tom saw.
[SPEAKER_00]: the whole captain's sweet situation where somebody lost his mind and killed his family with an ax.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wonder if that's related to when we hear at the historical society of this thing in 1873, where the SS Mary crew had been missing for 62 years, and then the mayor calls it to crash into the rocks because he coveted the captain's bride, like I don't know if there's any way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, the whole, ungrateful, Horton's Fitzgerald thing, uh, who we found out she's a descendant of Richard.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think we're definitely getting that story in season two.
[SPEAKER_00]: That would be my prediction.
[SPEAKER_00]: The New Year's Eve, 1962 disaster, nothing about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it does seem that it was linked to the creation of the orientation videos.
[SPEAKER_01]: At least my timing.
[SPEAKER_00]: That could be, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, John Reynolds head in a dumb waiter.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't have a date for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously the clown killer 51.
[SPEAKER_00]: We so I'm sure that they've already set that up.
[SPEAKER_00]: I could see them bringing Tim Balls back to give us an episode with Willy the clown.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's a question though about when I noticed on on rewatch about Willy the clown when Tom was seeing William.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't know if it was a ghost or hallucination.
[SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, and one thing that makes me think was a hallucination or projection of Tom is he brings up the new cappuccino machine, it's like why would he know that?
[SPEAKER_00]: But then William also said, you gotta be careful, they'll drag you down with them if you let him fucking useless ass backwards small brain, Tony Hicks, let him all wrought and hell and watch him all fucking burn.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like, whoa, is that Tom's thoughts?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, well, you know, was will ever in a role of island protector or right around, you know, maybe he was a Wrangler and things like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he, he definitely seems to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a good question.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's there's got to be something in Tom subconscious that is like, hmm, there's probably a role for me to play here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just not quite comfortable thinking about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to ignore it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: We also don't know what the dead man's closet is.
[SPEAKER_00]: Are any of these mysteries from the in or the historical society or something anything else most intriguing to either of you?
[SPEAKER_03]: I think.
[SPEAKER_03]: enough of these especially ungrateful hortens fits Gerald kind of things are exist to set up to jokes that I want them to feel free to keep doing that and to set up jokes or to have someone improvise a list of ghost hauntings that happen or whatever is happening in the production process and it not have to be flushed out later that's going to feel I don't
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to be the Debbie Downer here, which is also, it's probably a misogynist thing, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to be the negative Nancy here.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, no, that's also weird.
[SPEAKER_03]: God, that is so strange.
[SPEAKER_00]: So don't always speak to me, oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's right.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to be negative, uh, Moopymarkless here.
[SPEAKER_03]: But, but,
[SPEAKER_03]: I do hope they ride the line, you know, say what you will, the millennials in the audience that the peak millennials like John who love the prequels or whatever, there is something to be said for the mistake of flushing out every little detail can be a mistake in your backstory, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Stephen King would never flush out every little reference.
[SPEAKER_00]: I honestly think that's to his detriment personally.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you think it's to your, his detriment.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I don't know that we want a different novella of every single cycle.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, no, no, no.
[SPEAKER_03]: Anyways, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not, and I'm not saying everything needs to be shown.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the writer should know everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I do, I think that they do.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: They are throwing some things out there that they can flash out later, but I do think that they have a timeline of things.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we also hear from the Historical Society, I think we'll definitely also find out more about this whole thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: 42 passengers embarked by seed to find a settlement.
[SPEAKER_00]: They could call their own 40th.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: 43.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was an empty island, except the teeth, like the teeth.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's come up several times.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like maybe we don't need to know about the man found dead by horse, but it's there if they want to use it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like stuff like the 1846 fog or the 1786 deadly storm that led to cannibalism, like we don't necessarily need to see those play out because we
[SPEAKER_00]: can imagine, you know, it's quite clear what they would look like, and we've already seen versions of the storm and the fog, so but some of them are more intriguing to me than others.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think the writing is just so good because, you know, there, there is a, there is a deep backstory and even if it's just for the benefit of the writer's room or the actors or something, you know, there's awful, they did, these aren't throw away, you know, scenarios for sure, but whether or not we'll see them on screen, I sense not so much, but to your point, it was very careful deliberate intentional.
[SPEAKER_01]: stories and that's what gives the show this really lived in feeling, you know, so.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want there to be a show Bible that explains all this and I want there to be a writer's room.
[SPEAKER_03]: The writer's room wall that has posted notes explaining all of it and I want most of that to be hidden from us.
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to hold in me once every single detail in my brain, but I also know that the show will probably be better if they pull back.
[SPEAKER_03]: So there are some of these that are more interesting than others for sure, but, um,
[SPEAKER_03]: It's good enough if they know it without having to share it with us, I think.
[SPEAKER_03]: If they can't make in the show the way they are, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, we even enjoyed to show without all the information, are we going to keep enjoying the show if they keep not giving us all the information?
[SPEAKER_03]: Probably.
[SPEAKER_03]: I trust them, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I definitely, someone who got very frustrated at lost and jumped ship.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I don't think that's what's happening here.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, like I think that's the reason why not to tell you how you feel the reason that people struggle with loss It's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't like they hadn't thought exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: They just threw things out right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think that's what this show is doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Agreed.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think like there's stuff like there's a priest eaten by a whale that Quenquenquen came from nowhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, yeah, that's just fees into the whole island, you know, makes entities like the tentacle monster that attacked Wick and his friends.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I do want to know things like, so, okay, there's several witch references.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to know, is that a separate entity from the island entity and like are there competing entities trying to take souls like when they were trying to send people into that cove lake or whatever to drown themselves?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that something, and if there are which is, is it because
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, a lot of questions.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of the most intriguing things come from the bloodline stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, yeah, we got the Horton's T's, we found out, okay, one reason why I think they really have thought about how it all ties together is we find out just a throw away.
[SPEAKER_00]: Though someone called Sophia the heretic, who married Byron Fair Cloud and they lost six kids because the family that swims together drowns together and that's how the inaugural
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, that's a whole story that they obviously know and could tell or you know flesh out Yeah, I mean Yeah, I think it's interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: They name dropped a lot of things no time for their story now I don't think the writers have or should have written whatever that story is but just teasing it is enough to have fun with it in the future
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but they do have to answer, I think everyone wants to know next season about Ruth's great love Alfred, who got bit by an animal and became that animal.
[SPEAKER_03]: What the heck?
[SPEAKER_00]: What animal do you think it was?
[SPEAKER_00]: What animal do you hope it was?
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, don't know, don't care.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it's a goat.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there we go.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, like a wool for something like that or something.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, if it's a, if she's using it almost like an expression, like what's a guy, a negative, a pejorative sort of animal, you would say you're, you're,
[SPEAKER_03]: Snake, the lover, this exactly, yes, great thing that you got, dip by a snake or a mut or something like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or dip by alcoholism or something.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I did have to look up.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she was Miss Widow's Bay 1959 and we see her with someone.
[SPEAKER_00]: She talks about being excited about meeting a Keith Martin and there's a lot of celebrities with that name because it's super common.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think she was talking about the surrealist artist based on the years just FYI and I looked up his his face.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, obviously we're going to have to learn more about her former boss.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mayor Howard the coward who left surprisingly do we think he actually left or do we think he was killed or disappeared or what I'm not I think he was like the pastor you know who's like oh no no no no no you know I'm not doing this or you know so that he was in on it and he's like no I'm not going to do it or he's like how Bashir was this island is nuts I'm getting out of here
[SPEAKER_03]: Right, she and several of the other residents of this and characters in this show are very old enough to have been adults when the last sacrifices were happening so it's grainy video, but that video was a color.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, the dominant should have won was like a color VHS tape kind of style.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like it couldn't have been older than maybe the 70s, right, in terms of the way it looked.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that means so what Ruth is, yeah, young adult at that point.
[SPEAKER_03]: So was she working for the mayor, like how many of our characters were actually potentially present for some of these actions in the past?
[SPEAKER_00]: mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's seen some things for sure and everyone made a pass at her, including the past that is so funny.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and she forgot until he mentioned it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah, I guess he did.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's out of the non.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, her too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and also, yeah, I, we have to learn about Ruth's parents that her dad built this house or her parent or her dad and her aunt, something got daddy in the
[SPEAKER_00]: And I also, I do hope we learn more about these true sight mushrooms.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, there must be some supernatural source.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like, we didn't, one thing I would have liked to have known more about the season is what Tom was supposed to see while tripping.
[SPEAKER_00]: other than Abbey pointed out the okay so there's the thing where you know they keep drawing the hand the Todd said that someone else was doing that too and we saw Tom drawing tracing his hand.
[SPEAKER_00]: Abbey pointed out that when we saw a shot of the island and I'll put a link to the map in the show notes as well the island that was shared on threads but it's kind of shaped
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, the whole drawing the hand thing, probably something like it's the island, it's the island.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I hope we also see Mitch next season with the mysterious power grid, who said he said in the first episode, we hear he owes money to his father-in-law.
[SPEAKER_00]: He has syphilis and is old apparently.
[SPEAKER_00]: He lies about his Cherokee genealogy that he apparently doesn't have according to Rosemary.
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, but then he is in charge of power grid.
[SPEAKER_00]: Shh.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we're going to see Garrett again.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think so.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: The lighthouse that is so goofy that guy.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think so.
[SPEAKER_03]: They keep like the game of got not telephoto like I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's something about just like the the miscommunications of them is so funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think there's clusters of stuff in the past, like these 1960s orientation videos, probably have related to some events.
[SPEAKER_00]: The fact this siren comes from the 40s, probably has something to do with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's interesting this setting that it's being put in.
[SPEAKER_00]: We already talked about how there's no mobile network there.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can't really call for help on the go.
[SPEAKER_00]: But we also learned from Rosemary that it's a Castle Doctrine town.
[SPEAKER_00]: So to quote Wikipedia on this, a castle doctrine, also known as the castle law or a defense of habitation law, is a legal doctrine that designates a person's abode or any legally occupied place, for example, an automobile or a home, as a place in which that person has protections and immunities permitting one in certain circumstances to use force, up to an including
[SPEAKER_00]: Dead belief force to defend oneself against an intruder free from legal persecution for the consequences of force used So do we think they might use that to explain some deaths?
[SPEAKER_00]: Then they're gonna have to happen to feed the island Didn't think I'm wondering if Tom's who may come full villain
[SPEAKER_00]: Just one last thing I wanted to talk about was it was Evan's mom, Lauren.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's watching back, there was some things brought up about is Tom really Evans dad, some people point out that the actor who plays Evan is partially Persian and obviously we see him with two white parents.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not so concerned with that because I think he looks enough like Matthew Reese that whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I did notice Tom said he pursued Lauren,
[SPEAKER_00]: So is it actually, is Evan actually Tom's son?
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe not when does that change anything if he isn't.
[SPEAKER_03]: Interestingly, no, what would change, we would change if he was not Lauren's son.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right, that's what, right, that's something about Tom's feelings.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I don't think so because no, I don't think he would care.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I just think there's still mystery about Lauren for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would like to know a little bit more, you know, you know, what it was like for her having the stroke and coming back and did she get visits in the hospital, et cetera, but yeah, no, I don't, I'm not concerned about who Evan's mom is that I think it is Lauren.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, it's interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had never heard of pre-clampsia before, which I guess is E.R.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the most powerful episodes of 16 years of E.R.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: I never watched E.R.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but it came up twice this year, because it was also unparadized.
[SPEAKER_00]: So basically, the defining feature of pre-clampsia is high blood pressure, protein, urina, or other signs of damage to the kidneys or other organs left untreated.
[SPEAKER_00]: It can be serious, even fatal for the mother and the baby.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, but I do wonder, do we, do we think for sure she's dead?
[SPEAKER_00]: And maybe I'm just like, I guess she's not immortal because she wasn't the oldest if these arbitrary rules that I just made up in my head are real, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But I just, some nagging feeling that like, she's maybe not really dead.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's just still in this catatonic state.
[SPEAKER_00]: Although, I guess Ruth would have known if so.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just weird also she's in some facility and then she's not like she'd been moved off the island or something Is she actually able to leave like I don't think she can be Yeah, so it's just weird if she is alive if she is alive there's some Something almost supernatural to it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think it's just oh secretly it was we fake for death like that doesn't seem to be the story they're telling it's it is so strange though that we've seen so little
[SPEAKER_03]: about that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we've heard so little about what, you know, yeah, okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: So she had a brain aneurysm, but we already know that Thomas K. G. when talking to, when talking to Evan, I think about like, visiting her and like these letters are coming and then they may, they presumably abruptly stop, but we're light on details.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, yeah, gosh.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, these letters, okay, so one we know is about Ruth, the one where she said, dear Evan, everyone has two mothers and mother and a secret mother, which one am I?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm secret mom and I live in a secret house.
[SPEAKER_00]: They won't let me out.
[SPEAKER_00]: When you're little older, you can come here and pretend to be that awful mailman, okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: To review, I'm dead, I'm dead, I'm already dead, it's too late, come soon, mother.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, okay, that's about Ruth, obviously, the secret mother thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: We learn that Ruth took when and told her she's
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, I don't know why it leaves me at this nagging feeling, it's not over with her.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the other one, even creepier, I need your baby hands to get the keys and your little fingers to reach up my nose to pull the scorpion out of my brain.
[SPEAKER_00]: Love your mother, which could be like a representation of mental illness.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's all I read it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Could be just that, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But the fact that Tom was worried that everyone in the basement and Evan's like, what's in the basement?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we do not know what's in the basement.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, like there's more to know.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's more to know, I agree.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's perfectly safe to drive by the old hospital.
[SPEAKER_00]: You just can't stop.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why can't you stop?
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it because there are still patients there who are like loose or something?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's so weird.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, any final thoughts on the season, the first season of at least two of Widdersby?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yay!
[SPEAKER_01]: Wonderful surprise.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I anticipated remaining on my top 10 for the year, just a fantastic show, and it's really joyful to see something so original.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, I'd like good surprises like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Highly recommend.
[SPEAKER_03]: saying, uh, thanks for letting me know a few episodes in that the show was happening.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do we have any sense of the production timeline?
[SPEAKER_03]: Is this to show that takes three years to make?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Or will we see it in a year and a half?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think it just depends how whether they were already in pre-production when the renewal was announced.
[SPEAKER_00]: Something tells me they probably were.
[SPEAKER_00]: So hopefully, I mean, I'm going to guess late next year at the earliest.
[SPEAKER_00]: That would be my guess.
[SPEAKER_00]: Keep in my fingers crossed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: But in the meantime, we've got lots going on on the Harhouns fee.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was just an episode released about the new film back rooms, but we're also doing weekly the Vampire Lestat coverage.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if listeners are looking for their next horror comedy obsession, why should they choose the Vampire Lestat?
[UNKNOWN]: Whoo!
[SPEAKER_01]: Vampires!
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and let's start.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's so funny, you mentioned the horror comedy
[SPEAKER_03]: I just finally convinced my wife to start watching the series, but she's, we see an episode one and two of interview the vampire the first season, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: And having watched the first two episodes at this point of the vampire list, the tone, oh my gosh, like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you, if you tried to use the word horror comedy for the first episode of
[SPEAKER_03]: the interview with the vampire could be you could not be more wrong.
[SPEAKER_03]: It is so not comedic, but the first one totally because list that always has that kind of like snarkiness to him, but there's a like it's on it's in full glory in the and the framing device in the new season.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, if you like this catch up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, Widow's Bay for me at this point is number two of my shows of the year, and my number one is the Vampire Listot, just by the fact I've only seen three of the episodes so far.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's, but it's also like, so Vampire Listot is technically season three of interview with the Vampire, but it's a quasi-spin-off because now they've switched the perspective of who is the character narrating.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the entire tone has changed and everything, but it's still got that.
[SPEAKER_00]: richness and wildness, just taking a lot of swings and like jumping all through history and just about, it's really more of a character study than this one I would say.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like this one has lovable characters.
[SPEAKER_00]: Was, yeah, the vampire list that is about everybody's hurting and hurting each other, but it's in a darkly funny way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, the Laura Hound's main feed, you will find all of the above plus also weekly coverage of House of the Dragon, which I'll be leading the first two episodes, and then it will be David and Shaw after that.
[SPEAKER_00]: We just put out a disclosure day episode, super girls coming up, John just put out a similar alien stories for the Doriaf chapter episode, um, and he's starting, uh, let
[SPEAKER_00]: So keep an ear out for that if you are a brand-in-centerson fan and if you want to add free access to all of this then we have super cast and patreon feeds with all of these episodes plus extras like in June there was a sake and
[SPEAKER_00]: a hard-boiled movie dive, July is wide-month, so voting for the movies opens soon and we also have extra what you watch in, so all the time like there's just a the sheep detectives one that went out.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then please do check in the link tree in the show notes, you'll find links to that, you'll find links to our discord.
[SPEAKER_00]: We keep referring to where you can email us, but also our affiliates, including never mind the music.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mark, what is going on?
[SPEAKER_00]: Never mind the music.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so this week's episode, I don't know when this is coming out, but I think it should still be this week's episode was no doubt as I alluded to earlier with my stupid joke at the beginning, we did don't speak by no doubt and talked about key changes and also the chameleon effect, which is what, uh,
[SPEAKER_03]: is there's some discord conversation on our channel, disputing Nicole's connection to her to Gwen Stefani's partners and her visual aesthetic at the time of her partners.
[SPEAKER_03]: But next week's episode, we're also really excited about we have a guest Rob Harvillea.
[SPEAKER_03]: If any of you know him from the 60 songs that explain the 90s podcast, which is an amazing podcast, he's a
[SPEAKER_03]: pretty well-known Roth critic, which is still a thing in 2026, and we are talking about those times that you are embarrassingly wrong when you're hating on a musical artist or album.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then you find out, years later, it is a classic.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's next week's episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: So check us out there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Excellent.
[SPEAKER_00]: We also have dunges and do rags just join the network and they are also going to be covering House of the Dragon check out their YouTube channel while the audio is getting uploaded.
[SPEAKER_00]: They just also had recently had an episode about spider noir, which we had the, I love spider noir episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: They had the, I'm skeptical about spider noir episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: Rings and rituals will be starting back up soon too with a rewatch of season two rings of power in advance of season three and I think yeah properly how we're at a radioactive ramlings are on break.
[SPEAKER_00]: The star was kind of timeline podcast has been subscriber focus for the moment but I will get back to the public feed but I am quite busy at the moment with wool shift dust silo season three starting July 3rd.
[SPEAKER_00]: Luke and I are already recording episodes, so they will be coming out as the episodes drop publicly and Abby and I will be doing our extras on my private book club extra feed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you to our community volunteers, the Duna Dane, Duna Dane.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm always saying it wrong.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Red Zippy.
[SPEAKER_00]: the TCS, Dopa, Mimi, Eleanor, Mrs. Tenet, AC Wilson, Eli W. Cassie-K, Chamberoni, Catea, Josh Loup, Indian BDX, Cori G, Quinch, Geniell, Slavinator, and always last Doddory on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Whoa, thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Any final words.
[SPEAKER_03]: All in one breath, you said that too.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hearing that on two-speed might be a bit of an act.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why it's fun in two-speed.
[SPEAKER_00]: True.
[SPEAKER_00]: I get to be the chipmunks.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thanks, that was fun.
[SPEAKER_03]: Can't wait for the next show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks, everyone.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let the bell toll.
[SPEAKER_02]: The Lower Hound's podcast is produced in published by the Lower Hounds.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at the Lower Hound's.com slash contact.
[SPEAKER_02]: Get early and add free access to all Lower Hound's podcasts at patreon.com slash the Lower Hounds.
[SPEAKER_02]: Any opinions stated or are as personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for listening.
[UNKNOWN]: Thank you.