[SPEAKER_01]: Hey everyone, welcome back to Seeking Watchcraft.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm your host Ashley, and I'm so excited for today's episode because we are diving into a really raw, honest, and deeply personal book, The Diary of an American Witch.
[SPEAKER_01]: And today, I'm driven by Marshall, the author of the book also known as The Witch of Southern Light.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're gonna talk about his experiences, his craft, and what it means to live as a modern witch in today's world.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Marshall, welcome.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so excited to have you back on the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for having me, I always love listening to your show and I love being on it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so exciting to have you on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now for those who may be unfamiliar with you or your book, could you introduce yourself to listeners and tell us a bit about yourself?
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hello, everyone.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Marshall, WSL, also known as Witch of Southern Light on social media.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am a queer Texas witch.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is my third book, my first two are Cunning Words, a Grim Martiales in Magic and the Red and Mother.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you are interested and haven't listened to those episodes, Ashley has been kind enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: to have me on her show to discuss them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now, my new book, The Diary of an American Witch, just came out this spring, Equinox.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is 13 months of my life documented in the form of a diary, sharing spells, experiences, theories on magic, my own personal spirituality and craft.
[SPEAKER_00]: And honestly,
[SPEAKER_00]: memories of experiences that made me who I am and mistakes and ideas around magic that sometimes I think many which is approach so many things with theory and then when we actually do the work we find that it's not always as theoretical as we think it is and which craft is a craft after all so this book and made opportunity to experiment with my craft as I was taking
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this book was about that promiscuity and trying new things and figuring out how my spell work works, how to be specific, how to use intention, the right way or wrong way to use tools and spirit allies.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a very interesting 13 months and it definitely allowed me the opportunity to experience
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, first of all, thank you for the plug of the previous episodes, and also the Angela Z, I believe, is the one that's being promiscuous with your magic.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's an amazing witch and such an idol.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yes, I loved how raw and vulnerable your book was.
[SPEAKER_01]: I loved reading through and going along with historical events as you lay them out because it made me remember what I was going through during those times.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I will get back to that in a moment as you know, a lot of the people who listen to the show initially intended to be for people who are just starting out with their craft.
[SPEAKER_01]: but now there's a wide audience of people who are advanced practitioners, all the way to people who have just found out which craft is.
[SPEAKER_01]: That said, does a person who is interested in reading your book?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do they need to have any sort of which craft to connect with it or is this accessible to everyone?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, this is totally accessible to everyone.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't even have to be at which or practitioner or a cultist or anything that you have to do with the occult in general.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's at the foremost a diary after that is everything else that comes along.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can be a brand new practitioner.
[SPEAKER_00]: you could be an experienced practitioner, or a lifelong practitioner.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do think that, and please, I don't mean this to sound like a brag, but I think I have some stories to share, and I hope people who read this can learn from them, can resonate with them, can
[SPEAKER_00]: can find their own personal validation with them.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are so many books out there that are 101's and how-to's and recipes and all of those are wonderful.
[SPEAKER_00]: But sometimes it's the personal first-hand experience that really ends up teaching and having an impact on you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, as somebody who has gone through your book, I can definitely think of a number of examples of stories that you share where there's a lesson to be learned from it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do actually have some questions about that later.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of them is about like cursing with, um, to delivery, uh, which, which we could talk about.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a number of stories that you have that are very much a teachable moment for everybody.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not just witchcraft related, but you know ethically in real life as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: But one of the things that really stood out to me about this book is that you're writing a so incredibly raw and open and you share both really beautiful and really difficult moments.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I just wanted to ask like, what gave you the courage to be that vulnerable?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, when I first started writing the book, I was inspired by Sible Leaks the Diary of a Witch.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when I first opened it and started reading it, I was like, hey, this isn't a diary.
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, a caveat beforehand.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a no way shape or form of comparing it.
[SPEAKER_00]: to this book.
[SPEAKER_00]: But growing up, I loved reading the Dyer of Young Girl by Anne Frank.
[SPEAKER_00]: And my mom bought it for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: We went to the Holocaust Museum when I was 10 years old, been Washington, D.C., and I was still very, very young.
[SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of the images and scenes and information that I was absorbing in this museum,
[SPEAKER_00]: traumatizing is not even the best word to put it because it was a traumatic event, but as a 10-year-old, it was very hard to put this period of time and the travesty and horror deaths of what happened into a package that a 10-year-old could understand and thoroughly, maturely, comprehend,
[SPEAKER_00]: And on the way out, we stopped at the gift shop, and she bought me my mom, the diary of an Anne Frank on audiobook, and it was still back in cassette, like CDs aren't even a thing yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was the six cassette tape book that I remember listening to every night, I listened to this book for years.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought this girl who was only three years older than me was sharing so many poignant and relevant moments for the life and experience she was having.
[SPEAKER_00]: quite a collection of experiences while she was hiding in the secret annex during World War II.
[SPEAKER_00]: But she was so vulnerable and she was so willing to share her adolescence, her crushes, her fears, her dreams.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was something that was so impactful for me that I started looking for other memoirs that were diaries.
[SPEAKER_00]: I started looking for other authors who wrote
[SPEAKER_00]: fiction or nonfiction in the form of diary.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought the way that a diary really gave the reader a first-person POV of the author's experiences in life was so different from any other form of book or narrative I've ever been able to read before.
[SPEAKER_00]: When I started writing it, that's the feeling I wanted the readers to get.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wanted them to step into my perspective.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wanted them to step into my motivations.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wanted them to read it as if you were handed, I private diary of someone, because diary is our thing is that we put our most private thoughts in.
[SPEAKER_00]: And while I did go into this absolutely knowing that this was going to be read by the public, I knew that it was also going to be real and for it to be real, it had to share those private moments, those vulnerable moments, those moments that really show the person who is writing this is a human.
[SPEAKER_00]: They are fallible.
[SPEAKER_00]: They make mistakes.
[SPEAKER_00]: They have fears.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when it comes down to it, it was a cathartic experience for me to share it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that seemed to matter to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: When did you realize that this might become a book or did you start documenting it with that in mind?
[SPEAKER_00]: I started documenting it with that in mind.
[SPEAKER_00]: I went into this thinking I bought civil leaks to hire you of a witch so I could read her diary.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not a diary.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a memoir.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, wait, what?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not a diary?
[SPEAKER_00]: Mind you.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a fantastic book and a wonderful memoir.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I remember my first opening line as I've had an epiphany.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I actually almost took that out at so many different times, because I thought, oh, it's so the hubris, an epiphany, because you're going to share a diary.
[SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time, that's exactly what I was feeling at that moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to write an open diary.
[SPEAKER_00]: for my community, my which community, my cult community, I'm very alone or solitary when it comes to my in-person which community.
[SPEAKER_00]: Only in the past few years, by going to Salem, which fest and meeting so many of these other people, have I gotten to have more in-person community, but here in Texas, in my hometown.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's only a few people that I know that even practice, and I thought,
[SPEAKER_00]: If there's one thing I can give back to a community that's taught me so much, I think this might be an opportunity to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's pretty powerful.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: You touched on this, but I was actually going to ask if there were any entries that you almost did it include.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh no, there were actually entries I did take out.
[SPEAKER_00]: This book set as a manuscript in my files for a year without me even touching it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I needed some perspective.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: I needed some distance.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was very, very close to the experiences.
[SPEAKER_00]: It ended with a final entry on October 31st of 2024 and seven days later, we had the election.
[SPEAKER_00]: So many major things were happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: I felt I needed distance to edit it properly, to edit it in a way where I wasn't so raw, to things that had happened so recently.
[SPEAKER_00]: There were a few things I took out to protect my job as a hairstylist at my salon because if a client were to read it and think that it might be about them, that might be not too good for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: That could not fire a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that could backfire a little bit, especially in Texas.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was the death of a very close friend of mine that I wrote about, and I considered removing that one too, but it was such a pivotal moment that changed me as a human being.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it also had a lot to do with what was going on in my craft at the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: choices that I made and regrets that I have about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought there's one person out there who reads this, that might not be inspired by it, but might actually say like, hey, this feels like a good opportunity or warning or example of what not to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we talk so much about what to do in witchcraft, especially in online communities because people go opinionated on there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But so much of what not to do comes across as theory and hypothetical circumstance and very much, I'm this elitist, high, learned person, don't do this as an example, but when you see an example,
[SPEAKER_00]: when you hear about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like an actual physical example of something gone wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mistakes made.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not just a hypothetical.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not just someone on the internet or a mentor telling you, hey, don't do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a, hey, this is what happened when I did this.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is what happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: When I made this decision, when I didn't think about all the available outcomes, when I didn't think about how others might be affected, this is what happened to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I'm hoping other people can learn from that because I would hope that they would.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, one of the things I really liked about the book was that you don't shy away from the more complex side of magic, and I mentioned this earlier, but you talk about painful magic and moments where things didn't go as planned, like a pizza delivery situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you want to touch what do you think of that or the listeners could find out when they read the book, but I have definitely heard of similar stories of somebody almost cursing somebody and then finding out later that if they had done that,
[SPEAKER_01]: It would not have actually been the best move, but yes, I definitely had some connections to things like that when I was reading that that story you included.
[SPEAKER_00]: I very much believe in justified magic.
[SPEAKER_00]: Bainful magic is a great generalization of magic that is usually about doing something that probably causes harm, but at the same time, I also like to think about it mostly as justified magic.
[SPEAKER_00]: Magic that is rebalancing the scales.
[SPEAKER_00]: Magic that is defense, not offense.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when I think about the pizza situation that led to the curse that I did, first off, I just want to say the arrogance of youth is a beautiful and horrific thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: That didn't even have to have to do with witchcraft, but it definitely does because I started very, very young.
[SPEAKER_00]: I remember being an incredibly bullied and I had this slew of
[SPEAKER_00]: I must have been probably about 13 years old when I did this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And of course, I'd read all of Silver Ravenmore's books and cut cutting him's books.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the threefold law was a very pervasive at the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just remember thinking about throwing caution to the wind and just getting even.
[SPEAKER_00]: And before I tell you the story, I do what people don't understand, I was young and stupid.
[SPEAKER_00]: And full of my own ego when I made the choice to do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I'm not saying don't do painful magic or don't hex.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am just saying, get all of a fact straight before you do.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's gonna be nice.
[SPEAKER_00]: I, it's, it, I agree.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I will say, I just feel like I have so many caveats for this because it's going to sound so stupid.
[SPEAKER_00]: But like I said, I was young.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had this slew of bullies, one of them lived at the very end of my street and I remember one day the doorbell rang and it was a pizza delivery person and they were delivering a pizza and that was a time before like the breeds and and all these other in favor and door to action.
[SPEAKER_00]: The only thing that you would have to deliver at the time was pizza or Chinese, and when they were delivered, you had to pay in cash, because there wasn't even online payment systems for that kind of stuff just yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: We had not ordered a pizza, and it was a common prank to order pizza to a place, and then they'd be stuck with the bill.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes people would literally send like 20 boxes to someone's house that they hated or played joke on them, and they would be stuck with having to pay for these 20 pizza boxes.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I got,
[SPEAKER_00]: a cheese pizza.
[SPEAKER_00]: My mom was like, what is this?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I immediately knew that I was, it was part of the bullying.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I had made the decision that it was clearly what's his name who lived down the street because of proximity and I decided to get him back.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the thing is, he was only one of the bullies that were making my life kind of a living hell at that point in time but he was the one closest.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just decided in my hubris that I was going to curse him.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I remember going to the little forest by him in neighborhood.
[SPEAKER_00]: standing on this mound and setting all my elements and throwing my hands up into the air and spitting and screaming these explittives and curses at him.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the following week, he wasn't in school.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, I kind of asked around and found out through the great vine that he was home with the flu and then advanced into pneumonia.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he was out for almost like a week, week and a half, before he found that came back.
[SPEAKER_00]: While he was out, my friend of a time, his name was Michael, he came up to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was like, I'd you like the cheese pizza.
[SPEAKER_00]: The realization of it as it washed over me was one of those just like moments like laughable moments of oh my god it was you but also oh oh I did a bad thing and then I was watching the bad thing happened to this person
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just remember when he came back thinking like, okay, it's over, it's done.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, oops, I learned my lesson.
[SPEAKER_00]: I should know better than that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Over pizza, how stupid of me.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you know, it was kind of like a straw that broke the camel's back situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: If it actually had been him, which it wasn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then about a month later, I started being blood.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had very painful urination.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was peeing blood.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was very embarrassed.
[SPEAKER_00]: I waited multiple days to tell my mom to the pain dot so excruciating.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was holding in my urine for almost 24 hours because I was too afraid to pee.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I finally told her, and she took me to the doctor's office, the doctor diagnosed with a kidney infection.
[SPEAKER_00]: The thing is, is when I had one at the time, they wanted to figure out what caused it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I had to go through this barrage of tests.
[SPEAKER_00]: One was horrifyingly embarrassing of putting a catheter up there and doing images to see if I had something called a urinary reflex.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was just a slew of medical tests that I had to go through.
[SPEAKER_00]: And all of them were inconclusive.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I look back on this now, very much recognizing that what I did was not justified.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do I believe, I'm not a personal follower and believer of the threefold law, but I do believe in justified work and I do believe
[SPEAKER_00]: that there was definitely a learning opportunity there and a re-constitution of the balancing act of justice that I think kind of fell back on me at the time, but I've learned a lot from it, and I think a lot about it now, especially when it comes to painful work, then I may choose.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to make sure it's justified.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to make sure I'm doing the divination.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to make sure I have all my ducks in a row before I make the choice to mess
[SPEAKER_01]: I really love this description of justifiable magic versus saying being a magic, which being from magic totally fine is a same as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I know a lot of people when they first start out, or even just in general, if they've been practicing for a while, people can sometimes worry about being from magic and affecting somebody in a negative way because sometimes you never know how it's going to turn out.
[SPEAKER_01]: But a lot of magic is inadvertently harmful to somebody else.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you do magic to get a promotion or a raise at your job, I mean, there's a chance that I'd be getting taken from you and going to somebody else and for all you know that other person might be half a paycheck away from homelessness and so that would inadvertently be causing them harm, but that's just kind of the risk that I take with magic and that's just one of many examples.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, and like this way of rephrasing as justifiable magic and
[SPEAKER_01]: phrase.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I'm going to start using this now.
[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you for this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not the originator, it's just people know that I've heard it said to the great fine, and it's definitely also used in multiple cultures of magic, the idea of justified magic.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I really appreciate you bringing that up, and I guess one of the questions I could ask is for people who are listening how maybe more beginners or just anybody curious, how could they kind of start recognizing
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know how to ask this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I was going to say like they recognize intuition under signs in their own life of if they should be kind of having these types of experience or you know, I think a better way of phrasing it is what something beginners or anybody should understand before exploring these more intense forms of magic.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you are a beginner and just starting out, I wouldn't even, I wouldn't, like, listen, I started off hot and strong when I was young.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I would say to avoid regret and mistakes.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you are just beginning, in my opinion, I don't think there's any need to jump into painful magic just yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: I might jump into a protective magic to, if you're even closer to painful, return to sender magic, creating a witch bottle and in itself is a great protection.
[SPEAKER_00]: and it comes historically from anti-witching practices.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's also the return to sender concept of magic, where you are, if anything is sent your way, you're just sending it right back.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know some people who would call that painful magic, I don't personally, but I think at the very beginning, when it comes to spellcraft in general, doing divination to ask,
[SPEAKER_00]: How should I go about this?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there anything I should look out for to go about this?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there if I do this?
[SPEAKER_00]: Can I count on it giving me a satisfiable outcome that I can live with without guilt?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there anything I should look out for?
[SPEAKER_00]: as a blockade to this coming through.
[SPEAKER_00]: Am I doing this on the right person?
[SPEAKER_00]: Am I addressing this through asking the right spirit?
[SPEAKER_00]: And you of course can do that with like taro or Oracle cards, but I also love a good, just straight up binary divination.
[SPEAKER_00]: Whether that's like black and white marbles, red and black cards, saying like red for yes, black for no, odd and evens.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like to do bones.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have this collection of three chicken bones and I have a system where when I throw them, it lets me know a yes or no answer.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that honestly sitting down and getting yourself a trusted practice of divination before spellcraft, painful or dextral.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a great way to start in the first place because it's going to help guide how you choose to do magic.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a big fan of divination before spell work, especially something that could have a big altering effect on another person.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm also, I am not really like much of a being full magic person myself, but I am a big fan of the freezer spell.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I'm fan.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was my first spell.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've talked with that before.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love the freezer spell.
[SPEAKER_01]: They are fantastic and I give it a 10 out of 10.
[SPEAKER_01]: If anybody is
[SPEAKER_01]: wanting to do that because I've done freezer spells where I'm just like very focused and then the zone and channeling my energy into it and whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've also done freezer spells just in my work clothes, angry, like slamming my freezer door clothes and then they both worked out great so you can really kind of come into it with any energy I think and it's been great so that tends to be as painful as I get.
[SPEAKER_00]: I recommend slamming the refrigerator or the freezer door
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it just had something absolutely that have a little whimsy in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to take a short break and we write back in just a moment, all right, and welcome back.
[SPEAKER_01]: Moving on, one of the other things that I really loved in your book and I am so curious about people who would probably actually try this out and I'm sure you are curious yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that your diary included actual spell scripts with any necessary ingredients and how you did it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm curious what made you decide to share those details.
[SPEAKER_01]: Was it just for documentation or something you added that you want people to try out on their own?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know, when I first started writing it with the idea of it being an open concept for my community, I wanted to document the spell that I was doing, the situation in my life or someone who was coming to me in their life, why it was being done, the situation in which it was being done.
[SPEAKER_00]: but also the outcome.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to document the outcome.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought a whole point of this diary was to actually document the spell, the ingredients, the time I did it, why I did it, and then what happened afterward.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think so many times we see books on witchcraft and practice.
[SPEAKER_00]: and they like I said it's very how to it's very recipe, but I mean I don't know if you've had done this but I'm huge on looking at recipes online and then doing them at home and then I'm in the middle of doing it or I'm done cooking it and I'm wondering did anyone who actually wrote this recipe make this dish?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, maybe 100%.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I was like, this needed to be double the cans of this or it needed to be a higher temperature or you said it's going to be tender and ready in 13 minutes.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had to cook it for 45 and that really ended up showing itself in the diary of an American witch because I got to actually see the results happen and record those results and then also decide, okay, what next time I do this might I tweak it a little differently might I use this instead of this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I should do this day instead of this day.
[SPEAKER_00]: It gave me the opportunity to edit my magic in real time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and on your note about the recipe, I just will say, as a total aside from the book, and just something noting what you're saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have realized that a lot of times when you look at recipes online, if you actually look through the comment, like, it could have 500 great reviews, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you look through the comments, I've noticed there's many times for the comments, like, oh, all of your other recipes have been so good.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't wait to try this one out, or like, oh, this sounds great.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna make this this weekend, five stars.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's when I'm kind of like, oh, I think they bought the comments on this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't trust this recipe anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that might be why your recipe is actually a 45 minute one instead of 15.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a fake recipe.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's fake.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's theoretical.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's theoretical.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's theoretical, but on this topic of food, I also want to shout out that I loved that you included some recipes for food.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like cowboy caviar and sandwiches.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just posted an episode on Kitchen Witchcraft, so I thought it was very timely to see a cooking recipe mixed in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I got to share some of my like traditional recipes we do for new year's celebration for prosperity and for luck and to bring in a abundant new year.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's so funny actually because like one of the things that I love to discuss is the fact that pagans nowadays,
[SPEAKER_00]: especially in modern paganism we focus so much on antiquity and the celebrations of yesterday.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the thing is is like those celebrations were current at the time that they were celebrated.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there are based off of the harvest festivals or changing of the seasons or major celebrated days of the year and then they had their traditions surrounding it.
[SPEAKER_00]: We do that now.
[SPEAKER_00]: We, as communities, as cultures, as states, or countries, we have those same celebrations, and I don't think just because they're newer or modern that they're better than those that existed in antiquity.
[SPEAKER_00]: Lunasa for me is not the bread baking time period because I didn't just harvest my grain.
[SPEAKER_00]: I get bread from the grocery store year round, but I do celebrate new years by having cabbage and black IPs, and I wanted to share the recipe in which
[SPEAKER_00]: I serve those to, you know, me and my friends when we're celebrating together.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not just a play to cabbage and a play to get black IPs.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's cowboy caviar and a rubin slider bake.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's delicious because I'm telling you right now I'm not a huge lover of just eating cabbage.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do love a cabbage, but to your point, and this is something I was trying to figure how to ask this actually, because like one of the things that you mentioned, well, there's two parts of your book that I kind of want to tie together, where you talk about incorporating different practices, so like the black by piece and the grapes that people do for New Year's.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you also talk about having a conversation about Buffalo Nichols,
[SPEAKER_01]: for protection, which mimics other practices, like things like the evil eye.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then there's another part where you talk about how you wouldn't necessarily say somebody, I forgot the exact example, but it's something along the lines of
[SPEAKER_01]: If a Catholic is essentially practicing witchcraft, but they don't call it witchcraft, it's not on you to call them a witch, it's not your place for that, because they would deny it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But looking from the outside, what they're doing is very akin to a different type of practice with a different name.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I appreciate that you have brought up this example because I think that there are a lot of things that people do within their spirituality that is very similar to each other, but it has different names.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think sometimes people don't really how similar we are to one another.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just like talking about that topic.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like it's not discussed very often.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I actually remember an episode of your show while back where you were talking about frankincense.
[SPEAKER_00]: And how, I think you said a priest had to come into an occult shop to buy frankincense because they were all out.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember, but honestly, I believe you.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a few years ago, but I remember like you had a whole episode, I think it was on incense.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there was a discussion about frankincense specifically, and this is interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now that you're saying that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is definitely sorry.
[SPEAKER_00]: The one thing that I think people get so hung up on verbiage and language, and while I do think language and labels matter, at the same time, I am a witch, because I know what I do, and I know what I label myself as, and I know what I call myself.
[SPEAKER_00]: I may be really good friends with, say, a Catholic or Protestant folk practitioner, and they may not be comfortable with the term which, because it carries a different connotation for them.
[SPEAKER_00]: The thing is, is like, when I think of the big umbrella of magic, magical practice, it's a big umbrella, and then there's lots of little categories that fit underneath it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Catholic folk magic is one of them Protestant folk magic is one of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Who do is one of them?
[SPEAKER_00]: Santería is one of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Corrondismo is one of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Which craft is one of them?
[SPEAKER_00]: There are a lot of different smaller categories that fit under the umbrella of magical practice.
[SPEAKER_00]: And while there may be a lot of intersectionality there, there may be even depending on whether they're open or closed, borrowing from different aspects of magic.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know mostly people who do dual faith practice, they will go to church on Sunday and they will curse someone on Monday.
[SPEAKER_00]: There is all sorts of humans that have different beliefs and approaches to magic.
[SPEAKER_00]: My approach is through witchcraft, and I do specifically think of witchcraft under a specific category of magical practice.
[SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes my good friend who is a Protestant folk practitioner may do a spell, but they're calling upon the power of the Holy Spirit.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when I do a spell over here, I'm calling on the power of the Man of the Crossroads.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we both may be using Psalms, but we are calling from different sources of power, if that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think the way that we approach it, because I know there are a lot of people out there who are very, very ready to define it for everyone else.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not willing to take that on because it's none of my business, but I will define it for myself.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there are times that if a folk Catholic practitioner,
[SPEAKER_00]: who feels comfortable identifying also as a witch and practicing witchcraft.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then hey, that's their business and good for them, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: I have to shout out that sentence of it's not my business because I think a lot of times in the a cult community people like to make things their business.
[SPEAKER_01]: When has nothing to do for his personal practice?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's true, it's not my business, it's my personal practice and your personal practice.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not my business, but I encourage you to follow it to its fullest.
[SPEAKER_01]: 100%.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to touch on that, I'm just adding one more thing because I know of somebody who recently got confirmation in the Catholic Church who is very much a witch.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason that she did it is to learn more about Mary Magdalene's life like the
[SPEAKER_01]: And to do it for witchcraft, they are technically Catholic, but they are very, very, very much not approaching it in the way the rest of the Catholic Church might approach those mysteries.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, it's interesting that the different lenses that people can take with their craft and their practice, or maybe they don't call it their craft, maybe they just call it their religion.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know what, it's none of my business, whatever they want to call it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I have heard this conversation that can't be a Christian witch, that's an oxymoron.
[SPEAKER_00]: Listen, being a human at some point or another is going to be an oxymoron, just because it says don't you witchcraft in the Bible doesn't mean that a Christian won't do witchcraft.
[SPEAKER_00]: The same way they're also going to wear it, socks with a cotton poly blend, same way they're going to eat shellfish on Fridays, the same way they're going to use curse words, the same way that they're going to do plenty of other things, that the institution of the church says you
[SPEAKER_00]: like, I don't know, a lot of people who are still getting married as virgins.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you know what, many of them would still call themselves Christian.
[SPEAKER_00]: So saying it's antithetical, I think, is kind of a waste of statement or saying that there can't be Christian witches because that goes against the religion.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are a lot of things Christians do that go against the religion.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are a lot of things that a lot of people who of any spirituality will do or make justifications for, even in Christianity, it's understood that we're all sinners.
[SPEAKER_00]: So who's to say that, sorry, you just can't do this one sin, because if you do this one sin, you can't call yourself that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know a lot of gay Christian people.
[SPEAKER_00]: and people will be like, how can you be gay and Christian?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just like, there are a lot of ways to approach religion and dogma and institutions of belief.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like I said, how you approach it is none of my business.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's what I loved so much about getting into like a paganism in general.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that even though I am part of a structured tradition, ultimately with my own personal practice and such, I'm a lot to believe whatever I want.
[SPEAKER_01]: No one's here to really police me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, maybe the people don't take talk, but I don't even have that apple in my phone.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it doesn't matter to me, but they can't be a cab and police ever the people.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's none of their business and it's none of my business.
[SPEAKER_01]: What they do either.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I really loved that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought that was very refreshing coming into this religion, but you know, everyone, everyone likes to.
[SPEAKER_01]: not everyone, but people like to complain on the internet.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's just water's what people complain on the internet.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: And listen, we're human.
[SPEAKER_00]: We all judge what we see, what we experience, what we observe, but how we go about voicing and acting on that judgment, that's what defines us.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, this last question might actually be not last, but like wrapping up, this question might actually be kind of funny considering the conversation that we just had.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a line you wrote that really stuck with me in your book, and it's that the craft is a gift.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'd want to ask now that a little bit of time has passed since you have published this, and since you wrote that, I should say, what does that mean to you now?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a big question.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it is a big question.
[SPEAKER_00]: it's not just a good question.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a big question.
[SPEAKER_00]: For me, the craft has always been a gift because ever since I was young, it was the first time I was exposed to spirituality that didn't say something was wrong with me.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was the first one that said, you are whole exactly as you are.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, oh, that's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it also said that I didn't have to be anything else.
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't about judgment or sin or subjecting myself to an authority.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was about sovereignty and owning my own sovereignty.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the red mother, I actually wrote an opening story where she, the young woman who was finds herself in dire straits, she makes a deal with the crossroads and asks for a boon and you don't find out to the very end of that story that what she asked for was her sovereignty.
[SPEAKER_00]: and which craft gave me that much more than any other form of spirituality or belief that I've ever been exposed to.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for me, it is a gift and I think it's something that I have to approach responsibly.
[SPEAKER_00]: And honestly, the book definitely lists out moments throughout my life that I did not approach it responsibly.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now that I'm older and I'm more mature and I have
[SPEAKER_00]: I can look back on that with different eyes and without eyes of judgment as hard as I judged myself when I was younger.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, when I approach witchcraft and I think about it, this sounds so silly, but I really think about that old Spider-Man line with great power comes great responsibility and having power and knowing how to use it for the betterment of your life, for the betterment of your loved ones, for the betterment of marginalized community,
[SPEAKER_00]: It is a gift to believe in yourself and in your own power, to make changes in your reality.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I do think that a lot of people truly walk around 100% believing that they are victims, that they are powerless to any change or things that happen to them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know what it felt like to feel that way, to live a life where I felt powerless.
[SPEAKER_00]: So to feel and be empowered again, that's a gift.
[SPEAKER_01]: that is a wonderful answer.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know there are so many times where I'll talk with my mom, who's a Catholic lady, and she'll say something like, oh, you just gotta put it in God's hands and like trust what he'll do for you and, you know, the witchcraft part of myself is like, well, what can I do for my own situation?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know,
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, like this, and Jesus takes the wheels a great country song, but I am not always willing to wait for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And what are the biggest things that pisses me off so much?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is when tragedy or horrific events happen, and people just say, God's plans, mysterious, God works in mysterious ways, and I'm just like,
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think you understand how empty of a feeling that inspires in me and in so many people.
[SPEAKER_00]: This powerlessness to have no effect on my reality because, oh God, it's got a mysterious plan.
[SPEAKER_00]: And people have been through so much suffering in this world, the idea that that's all part of the grand plan.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry, that sucks, and I'm not buying into it.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I definitely agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's so many examples, especially in our current world right now where I can think about, yeah, I can think about that taking place and everyone's like, oh, just put it in God's hands and I'm like, I think God needs a little help right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, that was one of the things that was really cool that writing this diary is when I started, I had no idea what was going to come happening over the next 13 months.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had no idea what life events I was going to face, I didn't think about the fact that when I started it was going to be writing through an election year.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't think about the wars that were breaking out, the genocide that was going to follow.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I didn't know how it was going to play out over the next 13 months.
[SPEAKER_00]: So looking back on it now, there were so many instances in this book where you can see, here is my problem, here's the situation I'm in, here's how I'm going to address it with my craft.
[SPEAKER_01]: God, I just want to have you question.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: When you remind me when I recently heard this, where Maltide is experiencing great emotions or sadness or displeasure or confusion, I saw this once and it was a mom addressing her kid and she was like, you're having a lot of big feelings right now and she wasn't labeling them but the positive or negative connotation, but big, you're having big feelings.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because toddlers and small children, they don't have all the words in language
[SPEAKER_00]: describe what they're going through at the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes all they can do is cry.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so sometimes questions like the one you've just asked me, it's a big question.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's one that I'm lucky enough that I'm mature enough to have the language to put words for, but sometimes big questions.
[SPEAKER_00]: they're hard to answer, or at least answer perfectly, because I'd be a question requires a big answer, and I do think if we were having more big question discussions, especially within the witchcraft community, in politics, within America, within
[SPEAKER_00]: the way we as humans are experiencing the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: If we had more discussions about those big questions, instead of the small stupid, meanial things, like arguing about bathrooms and so many they're not tiny because they have big impact, but they are, they're not big enough to affect daily life.
[SPEAKER_00]: The outcome of them could be, but they're not the actual big things that actually can affect us in a way that brings about understanding, closing divides, closing gaps, getting to know each other's perspective so much more.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not the meat and potatoes of the issue.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it's the whole goddamn play.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the whole industry.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we all should be having more big discussions.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because if we do, we get to know each other as a community of human beings, so much more than a community of individuals.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we are really living through some historic times again.
[SPEAKER_00]: These are not the historic times I want to be living through so tired of living through unprecedented times.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a great time to be millennial.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or Gen Z, even Gen A, even Gen X, all the generations really.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, some of them fare a little better than others, but that's just a circumstances.
[SPEAKER_00]: What I think when I was editing the book, one of the things that really stood out to me was, I am documenting a very specific year of major events that are happening, not only in my life, but in this country and in this world.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so this diary will exist for years to come, having documented one person's experience living through this time.
[SPEAKER_00]: and it's going to have a POV.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be from the perspective of a queer Texas witch, but it's also going to be perspective of a person who lived through it who documented this is what happened on this date and this is how we responded and this is what we did whether we agree with it or not it's what happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that that's amazing to have this written out there and publish because, like, as you said, like, this is out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's going to be out there forever.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, hopefully when things get better, you know, we can look back at this and and realize like what it insane time we live through.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm sure we realize that no, but.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that is one of the cool things about publishing any media form is just it's out there forever and you always have it to Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: Marshall, there's so much I wanted to talk about this interview.
[SPEAKER_01]: We didn't even get to so two things I will just mention very quickly One you talked about writing on an elliptical and kind of getting into that transit and I got to say that definitely encouraged me to try that out Next time I go to my gym because I know what you're talking about that state you get into after a while when you're on there
[SPEAKER_01]: I never thought about using that in a virtual or in a virtual, but like a writing format or some sort of way to harness that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was very, very great.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was magic in this and like get on the elliptical puttons, some really motivating non-lirical music.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wait till you're five minutes in and you just got this rhythm going.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then pull up a spell on your phone, the oven in front of you and chant it for like a hundred jiss jiss straight.
[SPEAKER_00]: Chanted over and over and over again, while you're in the state, see what happens.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm absolutely going to be trying this out.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I wanted to thank you for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: The other thing I've mentioned this before, we started recording, you're belting 2021 solo fire ritual.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was like, I think one of the highlights of the book for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was quite the story.
[SPEAKER_01]: I told Marshall that I read it out loud to my boyfriend who is not a practitioner in any way and he was like, oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_01]: So all I want to say is that I'm very impressed that Marshall has lived through the burning time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is quite the story.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's definitely one for the ages.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was one that I was just like, I don't know if I should tell.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to encourage people to do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time, it was also like, no, I did it.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is what I did.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is the outcome of what happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll say it was definitely a trial by fire.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it was something that I now live with.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'll just say people, I promise you, you're going to want to read it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you are going to want to read that 100%.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's gonna, it's a great lesson in fire safety.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was quite a captivating story.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so sorry that that happened to you, but I was so happy that you kept that in the book because wow, that was, that was like, quite a space-y lately.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I did say in the very beginning, you're gonna see all parts of me, even some of the most space parts of me, and that one was most space.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I loved how vulnerable you got in this book.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that is such a perfect example of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it can also make listeners just feel more connected to the author in this case, you.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you include antidotes like that, I would just very personal, raw, literally skin, raw moments of your life.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I do think that is actually quite amazing that you did include that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would love to hear people's reaction to that after they read it, because that was quite the story.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would love to, you know what, I would love to see a reddit page pop up on Marshall's 2021 Bell Tain Richool.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's definitely gonna get a lot of, a lot of comments.
[SPEAKER_00]: I could laugh at it now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it absolutely will.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so now we need to start like a, like it'll alert or something on Reddit and see what pops up.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would love to see what other people have to say about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, if I see a pop up on Reddit, I will let you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you see a pop up on Reddit, please send it to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I definitely will.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh, well Marshall, thank you so much for being here and sharing the story so openly.
[SPEAKER_01]: How can the listeners find you and purchase your book?
[SPEAKER_00]: But you can find me on Threads Instagram and TikTok at Witch of Southern Light, all one word.
[SPEAKER_00]: My books are all available on Amazon, I am self-published, all the artwork is mine.
[SPEAKER_00]: The illustrations are mine, the covers are mine, so help a small artist out, and by my books.
[SPEAKER_00]: Cutting words, a Grimmar of Tales and Magic, the Red Mother, and now, the My New Book, the Diary of an American Witch.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, in 2026, or honestly any year, please support Small Business and
[SPEAKER_01]: I will put a link in a description, or I'll put the information in the description of this of the three books that you know have.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's amazing, three books.
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember when it was just the one.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know me too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Very proud of you for that, that is incredible.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I will put all of that in the description.
[SPEAKER_01]: So folks can go ahead and click that when they're reading.
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, if anybody wants to find me, you can find me an Instagram at Seeking Witchcraft at Facebook at Seeking Witchcraft podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is a Facebook group associated
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you want to support the show, you could do so at patreon.com slash seeking which craft.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's about all we have for today.
[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you all for listening.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you enjoyed this episode, please, you know, the basic like, share, subscribe.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, Marshall, thank you again for coming out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God, I almost forgot the most important thing that I do at the end, which is asking if you can give one piece of advice to beginner, what would that be?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying not to give the same advice I've given on several interviews for this book so far, so I will say try to throw out preconceived notions about magic and about witchcraft.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you are deconstructing especially from the dogma of the church at the beginning, it's very easy to approach everything from a fear-based standpoint.
[SPEAKER_00]: I much more encourage you to approach it from the standpoint of being curious.
[SPEAKER_00]: be curious about things.
[SPEAKER_00]: Be much more interested in wanting to learn instead of perceiving that you already know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Even if you think you do, I promise you there is more to learn, there's more to experience.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is much better to approach everything with a curious mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: Stay humble.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, definitely.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you again, Marshall, for coming on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Amazing interview with always.
[SPEAKER_01]: I always love talking with you and absolutely, and thank you all for listening, and I'll talk with you next time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bye.